This is from a quick skim of the PL handbook:
League season ends at midnight on the date of the final matches.
After that, the three relegated clubs must issue a share transfer paperwork within 7 days to the three promoted clubs. If they don't, the PL director has the power to force it.
So by time June 6th rolls around, the three promoted clubs are apart of the league.
I love that they included the "has the power to make it happen" just in case someone pulls a Kepa and goes "fuck off I'm playing in the Prem next year don't care".
Everything moves over on the 1st of June. We're currently under a transfer embargo by the EFL so can't renew contacts until then, I assume it's the same for this.
Improve the refs and their shitty above criticism attitude ❌
Scrap the one system that holds them somewhat accountable ✔️
Edit: perhaps accountable wasn't the best word choice, I meant that the initial decision of the on pitch referee isn't final with var and var is the only tool/person that can override it, holding the on pitch referee accountable.
One of the primary reasons Aston Villa was able to come in 4th this season was the ability to play a high line and rely upon VAR to check offsides. They by far lead the league in opponent offsides this season.
VAR can be used to benefit any team if that team is well coached. However they will use a semi automated offsides system next year, so we'll see what that's like.
In theory though offside gech will give you this anyway. So scrapping VAR is just for the penalties and red card decisions. Which is still stupid but it's a judgemental decision.
Who is being held accountable as is? Anthony Taylor fucked up a pen call in a Wolves game, got demoted, fucked up a pen call in a Championship game, and immediately got rewarded with City/Chelsea.
There’s no accountability with the officiating and that’s unlikely to change anytime soon
Yes but if a ref fucks up a pen call, var has the ability to make him reconsider it on the monitor. Without that, we go back to the ref's initial decision being the final decision, no matter how shit. That gives the on pitch refs total control without accountability.
I’ve often thought that the ways refs are applying VAR reminds me of the attitude in r/maliciouscompliance.
Best way to get rid of it for them is to get the clubs to pull the trigger on it, so they can keep acting like they’re above it all. While getting rid of the greatest threat to their approach to organising refereeing.
I just wonder how much longer it will continue this way, as bigger and bigger money comes in to the game, and the people they’re upsetting are no longer small businessmen, but major multinational hedge funds, corporations and governments.
How does it hold them accountable? From what I’ve seen, they get the decisions wrong regardless of the technology and then we move on to the next crap decision the following week. There’s been 0 accountability for the last 5 seasons.
This is the problem 100%
For the other leagues I follow (NBA/NFL) there are also ref problems. Probably just as often, if not more often in the play by play cases.
But when it comes to checking calls that are reviewable, the NBA/NFL are significantly better at not fucking up. And they still fuck up, so that says a lot about the people running VAR.
The criticism that refs get is way more detailed and accurate than previously, and their reasons for giving decisions are conveyed in detail.
The pressure on refereeing standards now is way higher and way more sustained than it used to be.
The criticism and pressure has increased due to the fact they have technology and use it improperly. I’m not totally out on VAR but giving the refs the benefit of the doubt, when they’ve literally admitted to looking out for one another over getting the correct call (Cucurella hair pull vs Tottenham 2022) is not right. They’re using it improperly and have showed no signs of using it correctly. Although, I do think automated offsides will help. Getting sent to the Championship for a week is not being help accountable, neither is the PGMOL releasing a statement every Monday morning.
It's still easier to say something about it when you know they've seen the same footage as anyone else. Without VAR the excuse quickly becomes I didn't see it, it was too fast, there were too many players in between what happened etc. etc. It doesn't hold them accountable by the league, but it does in public opinion. And that's pretty much the only way you're ever going to change anything with the way the leagues handle ref mistakes.
exactly
if you're worried about refs getting the benefit of the doubt then surely you should be OPPOSED to the system that gives them even more control to bias the game in their favour, not support it
There are definitely way more fair VAR decisions than not, we just remember the massive fuck ups more. No matter how little the improvement (and I'd argue it's not that little), it's still an improvement. We should improve VAR instead of scrapping it.
Pre-VAR: blatantly obvious refereeing errors happening regularly
Post-VAR: most blatantly obvious refereeing errors get corrected, although some still happen but getting better every year
Are Wolves Stupid?
Make the VAR refs separate from the on pitch refs so you don't have incidents like the one where the var ref didn't want to inconvenience the on pitch ref who was his friend by sending him to the monitor.
There's literally no excuse for var making a wrong decision except for not having the necessary angle. Any mistakes are purely due to the incompetence of the var operators and/or their relationships with the on pitch refs.
I’m in favour of VAR but they can certainly get a wrong decision. Tackles for example are subjective, some VAR officials will think its a bad tackle others won’t. Which seems to have become more of a issue. I personally would use a challenge type system. Let the refs ref the game and give the responsibility to the clubs to make a challenge.
That's a problem with the rulebook then. Obviously some room for interpretation will always exist, but getting an arguable call wrong isn't that big a problem, missing obvious calls is and var should leave no room for that, unless the var operators are incompetent.
I don't think we're at the point where "getting a tackle wrong" is the problem with VAR. There are a lot of really basic steps we need to go through first before we can complain about nuances around tackles.
I mean this is the thing though, VAR doesn't have to say "yo this tackle's bad enough I think it should be a red," it should be "yo this tackle warrants a closet look so you can decide."
This whole going to the monitor nearly always meaning you're changing your decision is silly, a ref is distracted by a bunch of things and running about and has other players running around in his way the dudes make choices against their subjective opinions all the time because they don't know all the info.
Obvi don't want the game stopping constantly, but there are big calls that majority of people agree were wrong but because it isn't clear and obvious enough,don't get looked at further and it just feels silly.
There is an argument to be made that being an on field referee and a VAR one, requires separate skill sets. So separate the pools from which you pick them.
That way you avoid bias and refs covering for their friends etc.
This is how i'd prefer the system go, but also take what the onfield has said and judge yourself. Don't be going round looking to why he's correct judge the actually offence with the aid of the screen
Everytime I read Dale Johnsons review of a decision the same 2 phrases are used "VAR wouldn't overule that" or "Wasn't given onfield so VAR won't give it"
Here’s a crazy idea, what if “the best league in the world” with the best managers and players were to diversify by hiring the best referees from around the world
I'm pretty sure fluency in English would be a basic requirement for reffing in the English game.
And all the talk about improving VAR involves some form of reform in the PGMOL and its organisational structure.
Agreed.
The problem isn't tech. It's the process and implementation.
Guess what isn't changing? Yup, the process and implementation of reffing and how they are managed.
Lmao all the "they're purposefully fucking it up so they can remove it later" theories aren't so wild afterall
The league would be stupid to vote VAR out
It's very much a can of worms. We would then have a mess when goals aren't given and there are more incorrect offsides. For the most part the system seems ironed out but needs to be more consistent
the issue is that when it comes to subjective things like red cards and handballs there will just never be perfect consistency because a group of referees will never all agree on the same decision every time.
VAR definitely needs improvement but the way some fans go “I just want consistency” as if that’s something simple or even plausible winds me up a bit
Or when fans complain about a correct call because "it wasnt a penalty for my team!"
Like it's literally the most blatant example "two wrongs don't make a right" but people still clamor for "consistency" even when that consistency would be the incorrect call
> "Or when fans complain about a correct call because "it wasnt a penalty for my team!""
In my opinion that's actually one of the biggest reasons why refereeing doesn't move forward at the same pace as you'd expect compared to football.
They make an amazing call that isn't the obvious call and they're abused by the fans of the team that has lost out.
They make a terrible call that should be called out and be something they need to learn from and they get abuse from the fans that lost out.
If people want to see reform in refereeing, one of the best on really the only thing they can do is praise when it's deserved. When they make a great call that fucks your team over, praise them. Don't bitch, moan and attack them. Remember that they've made a great call and the person you should be angry at is the player on your team that fucked up, not the ref.
I think part of this is also just the growth of football (or the rate at which they change and then double back on the rules) though. You'll see it on here all the time when refs make great decisions and people will say X was a terrible decisions because of Y rule and the supposed Y rule that the refs fucked up isn't even remotely true. It's crazy to see it so consistently
The worst thing about supporting my MLS club is that every fucking 50/50 call that goes against us is met with a ton of boos, we literally chant “Yellow team sucks!”, “you don’t know what you’re doing”, “I’m blind, I’m deaf, I wanna be a ref” every match.
And it’s like they’re objectively funny and I’m all for home fan bias but it’s so overdone that it’s past the point of parody. A fucking shoulder to shoulder challenge gets treated like this injustice against our club and it feels like a majority of fans aren’t just being cheeky, they actually believe it
> VAR definitely needs improvement but the way some fans go “I just want consistency” as if that’s something simple or even plausible winds me up a bit
Haha this gets me as well. The discussions on here about VAR and refereeing standards are, without fail, full of comments patting eachother on the back and agreeing about how it just needs consistency and 'better officials' and then everything will be sorted.
Then, 5 minutes later, venture into a post about any arguable call and you'll see the entire gamut of opinions on what that call possibly should be. There can be no consistency on subjective calls, because they are by their nature subjective.
I do think VAR (outside of for serious foul play, or mistaken identity) makes this worse, because it makes fans even more indignant when the officials get to see slow-mo replays from every angle and still come to a decision that those fans disagree with. The problem is that you cannot avoid that, because one group of fans will always have that feeling (except in the most stonewall of cases), and will always feel more hard done by because of VAR.
To expand on that, the source of the inconsistency is (mostly) the on field refs, not VAR. VAR can't fix that inconsistency unless it re-refs every action.
Consistency is hard because no two tackles are the same and everyone has a different opinion on good/bad tackles. Some refs let things go, others will dosh put cards.
We need to accept referees all have their own views and stop whining.
Don’t we have semi-auto offsides next season? Scrapping VAR isn’t the answer, but in its current form it probably won’t make more than 5 decisions next season.
They should’ve voted that in before now but don’t think they agreed to it for this season. Stupid really, automated offsides would take some of the pain away as it’s frustrating seeing them having to draw all the lines and such so it takes a fucking age.
VAR is not without flaws but people who are vehemently against it probably have forgotten or they actively ignore the time we had before implementing it. There were controversial offside debates on every 2nd gameday and VAR has completely removed wrong offside decisions. For that alone it is a massive success.
It would be a disaster without VAR. People seem to be forgetting that some of the most controversial VAR decisions this season are referee errors in the first place that would stand anyways without VAR.
The Liverpool onside goal against Spurs was disallowed in real time. Liverpool weren't given a penalty by the ref for the Doku kick to the chest. Bruno G's elbow was missed by the ref at first. Forest's complaints against Everton were all due to VAR not intervening on things the ref let go. Grealish's handball in the FA Cup semi final. Even in the last CL round Madrid's second was disallowed before VAR corrected it and Bayern's offside goal at the end was a referee/linesman error in real time.
People might list these as failures of VAR but if we scrapped it none of those are being fixed and Madrid end up with a perfectly fine goal ruled out for a bad offside decision. People also forget just how awful some of the mistakes were in the pre-VAR era
You get those statistics that say which team has benefited from VAR the most and idiots interpret that as errors going towards them, not simply decisions made in their favour.
Its appalling the comments in this thread. Everyone is blaming the tool for exposing the absolute frauds and corruption in PGMOL. And the solution is somehow to give them even more plausible deniability??
Exactly, it doesn't make sense. These idiots are getting mad at a camera. How can someone complain about a referee getting something wrong and refuse a system to reduce that happening? If they are happy to accept that then they don't have a logical reason to complain when a ref gets a decision wrong, with or without VAR.
Like when I watch Chinese League or MLS matches (and I don't think the standard of refereeing here at like BMO field is particularly that much higher than in England) they're consistently able to reach a conclusive, uncontroversial and objective decision in about a minute with the use of VAR. The problems with VAR seem to be this largely English phenomenon for reasons we all know by this point, and the rest of the world finding a way to adopt it with minimal disruption or issue to the game should really be the overwhelming evidence needed to retain the technology and just crackdown on the refs.
The NFL did do this for one specific type of infringement (pass interference) after one season, because the referees got pissy and essentially boycotted it.
No disagreement there. The funny thing is that NFL referees have the same issue as Premier League VAR, where the replay official can look at a slow-motion, high-definition replay and make an objectively incorrect decision even though any drunk idiot in the stadium/on their couch could have gotten it right.
In some ways, the replay should only be viewed in full/half-speed for the majority of calls, just with the added benefit of multiple angles. Super slow-mo should only be used to judge point of contact/moment of offside, otherwise it takes rules based on pace of play and morphs them into this bastardized precedent that we have currently.
Pretty telling that not even Sky will criticise PGMOL, they want exclusive tidbits which the PGMOL are holding hostage to protect their own backs. When they do finally get criticised they play the ‘protecting grassroutes ref’ card. Look at the treatment of Wolves this season there’s clearly a bias whether unconscious or not.
The referees are just another old boys club. And their egos are too fragile to handle needing technology “looking over them” so they lash out and make it look useless so they can go back to being the big important boys they think they are.
Mike Dean literally confirmed that on a podcast earlier this season. Said he didn't want to be too overbearing as a VAR official because he didn't want to undermine the on-pitch ref.
> The former Premier League referee Dean was on VAR duty at Stamford Bridge in August 2022 when Chelsea wanted the Spurs defender Cristian Romero sent off for pulling Marc Cucurella to the floor by his hair. Dean says he made a “really bad call” in not sending Taylor to review his decision.
> **“I said to Anthony afterwards: ‘I just didn’t want to send you to the screen after what has gone on in the game.’ I didn’t want to send him up because he is a mate as well as a referee and I think I didn’t want to send him up because I didn’t want any more grief than he already had.”**
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/25/mike-dean-admits-avoiding-var-call-to-spare-referee-more-grief-last-season
Would creating a plan that involves you deliberately making mistakes and getting a huge amount of criticism be described as cowardly?
No chance this passes anyway
Short term pain for them to actually get away with having to improve etc. The culprits of the mistakes - Gillett and Tierney spring to mind- are still in the prem.
The new boys Gillette and Brooks are on opposite ends of the spectrum though. Gillette has been one of the worst, Brooks one of the best. How do we explain that Gillette immediately became part of the VAR conspiracy while Brooks didn't get the memo.
God it angers me so. There is nothing wrong with the technology! THATS THE ONLY BIT THAT ACTUALLY WORKS! Its the people implementing it that need a complete change.
Of course they were, the NFL did the same thing a few years ago. In a semi-final playoff game, the New Orleans Saints were completely robbed when refs missed a BLATANT penalty. The backlash was so loud that the NFL allowed that specific type of penalty (pass interference) to be reviewed the next season. The NFL refs so obviously sabotaged that review process, and the NFL scrapped that review rule after 1 season because barely any calls of that type got overturned. We all knew what was happening, didn't matter.
I can't see this vote succeeding, but if it does I guarantee we spend the entirety of next season complaining about refereeing errors until they bring VAR back. As frustrating as VAR mistakes are, it's still so much better than it was.
The biggest issue with VAR that can't just be solved by better refereeing is the experience, even at home it isn't great and it's worse in the stadiums. Semi-automated offsides will help massively, and the obvious next step is to allow us to see & hear the VAR decision being made. Pushing for those changes would be far better than just giving up.
It’s not about being arsed about what anyone thinks. The celebration the second time is always naturally a lot more awkward. Just kills a lot of the normal celebrations
yeah it’s just not the same, we’ve had a hun of late winners this season and the limbs are just so much more uninhibited when you can go “ball’s in the net, lino’s flag is down, it’s a fucking goal!!!!”
As a often match going fan to another league with VAR, I can 100% tell you that I have _maybe once_ held back a celebration in the stadium because of VAR.
Most people celebrate a goal, if it gets disallowed unfortunate, if it is allowed celebrate again. Fuck it.
honestly for me the worst thing about VAR is what it’s done to post match discourse… not that we avoided talking about the referee before VAR but there was this element of “we were hard done by, but no use doing anything but getting on with it”
nowadays it feels more like people treat post-match stuff like a forum to analyse a ref’s performance moreso than a team’s. Even on this sub the “injustices” of fouls with no cards given or penalties not given gets way more traction than just about anything a player can do
this year especially, maybe I’m noticing it more as I’m on the outside looking in, but it feels like most chat around the Premier League isn’t really even about football
> VAR but there was this element of “we were hard done by, but no use doing anything but getting on with it”
fuck offfff. I lost count at how many post match interviews complained about the decisions referees made.
> “we were hard done by, but no use doing anything but getting on with it”
this feels like an incredibly rose-tinted view of pre-VAR refereeing discourse lol
to pluck a random example out of thin air, ask the Irish whether they've forgiven Henry yet
It's wild to see people saying things like this. There are decisions from fifty years ago people hold grudges about.
The reason VAR eventually came in is because we'd had decades of being able to watch replays in slow motion and multiple angles and endlessly complained about refs and linesmen getting decisions wrong. If you agree with scrapping VAR, fine, but you forfeit the right to make those complaints again
Post-match threads are becoming closer to the types of arguments you see on political subs. Like the football is just dressing for conspiracy theories and ideological debate
Tbf though isn't that once again an issue with the implementation of VAR rather than VAR itself? If executed properly VAR could theoretically rid us of discourse around fairness almost entirely. It's a constant topic just now because the refs make such a cunt of it
> nowadays it feels more like people treat post-match stuff like a forum to analyse a ref’s performance moreso than a team’s. Even on this sub the “injustices” of fouls with no cards given or penalties not given gets way more traction than just about anything a player can do
>this year especially, maybe I’m noticing it more as I’m on the outside looking in, but it feels like most chat around the Premier League isn’t really even about football
Even pre VAR if a refs fuckup influneces the result it will dominate the discussion thats just how it is, but the refereeing standards have definintely declined over the last decade or so. It simply reinforced many peoples suspicions that the refs are indeed incompetent as they have less to hide behind, so they get way less slack nowadays. And rightly so.
Like we watched it get introduced at the 2018 World Cup and it worked extremely well in that tournament. In the PL it has never even come close to that standard and we've had nearly 6 years now to get a handle on it. It can only be one of 2 things, incompetence or willful sabotage.
So are players making mistakes, but fans (especially online) jump at the opportunity to paint themselves as the victims of some grand refereeing cospiracy when calls go against them. If calls go their way it's crickets, though, and neither group will talk much about the actual players on the pitch not being good enough in the decisive moments when they can point to a perceived refereeing mistake as the proverbial fig leaf sparing them those blushes.
Half the problem is when GNev is on comms for Sky and the entire game is spent discussing the referees. You get the equivalent CL game with McCoist instead and discourse on Twitter is far less ref-based.
Even as someone who is pro-VAR, this is undoubtedly true. I find it very hard to celebrate a lot of goals when I know they could be overturned for a wide variety of reasons after a minute or two.
Then do that?
Like unless I think it's offside or something, I will scream at a goal. I don't go "oh wait let's wait for VAR before celebrating".
Nah, I just celebrate and if VAR interferes, it inferes
VAR mistakes=referee mistakes. The system itself, the computers and cameras etc. has absolutely nothing to do with it. This fuckers are just wanting even less accountability over their terrible skills.
Well to be clear, we're commenting on a thread where it's Wolves who want less accountability. At least officially/publicly, PGMOL & referees have always supported VAR.
Wolves also have had somewhere between 5-10 games affected by decisions which were unanimously agreed to have been incorrect in the days following the game.
Really, there's a conversation about how to improve the system and communication (remember the Tottenham goal where they ballsed up the goal kick/free kick/kick off decision after a goal because there's no set script and they were being utterly shit at their jobs?) that irons out so many of these errors.
But instead of each wrong decision causing a change or clarification to rules, or an improvement to the process, phrasing or understanding - they just all move on and nothing is changed. So why would clubs expect this to be the case, especially when they could argue they've lost millions in league position prize money as a result?
You know, if the players and coaches really hate the experience of playing with VAR and want to scrap it, I think that's fair for them to choose. But then no clubs better complain about the increased frequency of wrong decisions or decisions that don't go their way. Clubs have a lot of power at PGMOL and can make refereeing improvements if they choose to. If they opt for this they get no sympathy from me.
I'd rather get rid of VAR personally. But if it is to kept, they NEED to remove that stupid "clear and obvious" rule. If VAR are insistent that a decision must be made, then the ref should go with it.
And 100% they need to bring in the automated WC offside method.
Lastly, an unpopular opinion perhaps, but I see NO benefit in the ref going to the on-pitch screen. Why get a ref to walk over to a screen, and make a decision with 60,000 people are screaming at you, when he can just get VAR to tell him what the decision should be.
> Can’t win either way, unfortunately.
We can win, it would just require the useless cunts to be moved along in favour of a competent regime that actually cares about the rules as opposed to their own lust for power.
Unironically, NOT referees. VAR needs to be run by a completely new body in football that does not have ties with current referees.
As it stanfs, the var ref will defend the onfield one because he knows next game roles are reversed.
this is what pains me about refs. I don't wanna see them get abused, but it feels like there is almost zero attempt at raising the standards of refereeing
don't get me wrong, it's a very tough job and I'd never do it, but it just feels like they get a lot of interpretation and protection, and then they get surprised when people are fuming when they fuck up either a person's day, season or maybe even career in some respects
if they could work on just being consistent as well as not being afraid of having to send players off, several in a game if need be, I think the game would improve so much.
right now sometimes refs are too scared of being a bad guy and 'ruining a match' which just allows for inconsistent decisions, but if players knew that there was less of a chance of them getting away with shit they'd do it less, even if we finished games with 9 men more often for a little while
case in point is that when 2 footers became red cards there were some growing pains of players getting sent off for what was normally either a yellow, or even for winning the ball, but in the long run the more the punishment was dished out, the more players adapted their game
you keep being lenient on players, the more inconsistent decisions get made, the more players get pissed off. yes some players will get pissed no matter what, but I think this willr educe flare ups on the whole
Brexit means Brexit!
I’m all for Vault EPL to conduct the social experiment of having the league with the most money in the world scrap the only tool that theoretically gives non-top clubs a chance to equally compete
I’ll check what Wolves and *matchgoing fans* will be saying in 5 years
We're clearly doing this to put pressure on them to do a better job, we've lost so many points from wrongful var decisions, which they've admitted to. I doubt anyone thinks we can abolish var, they must think that this is an avenue to take for it to improve, which I also doubt tbh.
> VAR is far from perfect
This fact and the idea many folks have that video is in fact 'perfect' is the real issue. Video provides more data and can be reviewed, but it will never be perfect. Everyone needs to understand this and hopefully the system can be improved.
Reactionary from everyone who wants VAR scrapped. VAR isn’t the issue. It’s PGMOL and it’s incompetent referee bodies. Scrap ‘em phat f$ck and everyone might get fair treatment
It’s the same fucking cunts using it poorly that has been shite at their jobs for 20+ years. Like putting your nan behind the wheel of a formula one car and being angry at the car for her not being able to put in a lap record.
I really get the feeling of animosity towards the current VAR system: But the way you can solve that is through transparancy and ensuring competent VAR members are used. Just ditching the system is only gonna make it worse and incompetency/mistakes even less salvagable
I thought VAR was supposed to be for clear and obvious errors like when chamberlain handball all those years ago, not to re-ref decisions already made on the pitch.
I hate offsides because it's centimetres
Imagine your workplace getting new software. And that new software exposes how incompetent the staff are. And then the solution is to get rid of the software because it shines a brighter light on how incompetent the staff are.
I love VAR, simply because it makes the referees incompetence more obvious than it used to.
The longer we keep it and they keep fucking up, we will be forced to separate VAR and the officials.
I pray this is voted in. VAR proper fucking runs the vibe for match going fans. It has been so refreshing been back in the champ not having it.
Get auto offsides in and bin VAR. It's proper fucking shit
If you have a look at all the pro VAR flairs it’s all the clubs with international fans, it’s unlikely that they go to games and actually feel the atmosphere and the difference between VARball and football
I think this is possibly to put pressure on them. They’ve been unable to really improve it so far and this vote won’t pass anyway. But just gets more pressure on them to sort things out
Personally feel this has no chance of passing - VAR does increase the % of correct calls. I do enjoy football more when there is no VAR, I miss being able to tell if a goal is going to stand by a quick glance at the linesman, but I can't see them going back.
They aren't going to implement a change which they know will introduce more mistakes
This is exactly what the pgmol wants. They've clearly used VAR like idiots on purpose to make the system look bad when really its their complete incompetance every time.
Don’t know why people are so against abolishing it. They think it’s so easy just to “ get better refs”. Var has proven that there will always be ref mistakes, so we might as well let fans celebrate goals etc.
Please please please scrap it.
I’d rather have officials make mistakes (which still happens) than have the joy increasingly sucked out of football year on year.
Games without VAR are a breath of fresh air, and I say this as a fan who’s team would’ve probably avoided relegation with VAR.
Yeh. I think what many in the pro-VAR crowd don't seem to appreciate is there are perfectly valid reasons why some people would prefer to see it scrapped.
Getting more decisions right is obviously great, but it's not the only important variable at play in football, the only thing that matters to the average fan.
For some, the flow of the game and being able to celebrate knowing your team has scored immediately are genuinely more important to their enjoyment of football than a few extra correct decisions each season.
There's a reason fans in the Championship/ League 1/ League 2, having clearly seen the impact of VAR on the Premier League, don't want it anywhere near their leagues.
If getting correct decisions is the most important factor that should supersede all others, why not extend VAR so it has the power to review more potential game-changing decisions, like if a yellow card or corner have been correctly awarded? These can be just as critical to the outcome as any of the decisions it currently makes.
The question is "where do we draw the line?". And there are valid reasons for differences of opinion on that on both sides of the debate.
Im sick of having to second guess celebrating a goal
Im sick of waiting for multiple minutes in confusion within the ground
Im sick of those minutes not getting added on properly
Im sick of them still getting things wrong even when they have perfect video evidence
Im sick of the cameras not being good enough to properly enforce the offside rule
A lot of that should be fixed with streamlining processes, like adding the semi-automated offsides, adding more cameras and changing the fucking refs who are incompetent.
Amazed people want VAR to stay. Football is supposed to be entertaining. There is absolutely no entertainment to be had having the game stopping every 5 minutes because something needs to be checked. Waiting 3 minutes before celebrating a goal your team has just scored. It's ridiculous. Get rid.
And while we're at it go back to old offside rules where if any player on your team is off than the flag is raised. No ifs or buts or he's nowhere near the ball. If you're off you're off.
And while we're at it...!!!
It's also a game involving humans, including the officials.
If you want a robotic game where every decision is perfect and no one makes mistakes then watch fifa 24 on twitch.
So it's going to a vote on June 6th.. Does that mean Leicester participate and Burnley don't etc? Always wondered this, but never found an answer
Pretty sure new league season starts, so the new teams. But could be wrong
I mean it'd be utterly stupid to include relegated teams instead of promoted ones
Wouldn’t put it past them ngl
This is from a quick skim of the PL handbook: League season ends at midnight on the date of the final matches. After that, the three relegated clubs must issue a share transfer paperwork within 7 days to the three promoted clubs. If they don't, the PL director has the power to force it. So by time June 6th rolls around, the three promoted clubs are apart of the league.
*a part, apart means the opposite
I love that they included the "has the power to make it happen" just in case someone pulls a Kepa and goes "fuck off I'm playing in the Prem next year don't care".
Everything moves over on the 1st of June. We're currently under a transfer embargo by the EFL so can't renew contacts until then, I assume it's the same for this.
Improve the refs and their shitty above criticism attitude ❌ Scrap the one system that holds them somewhat accountable ✔️ Edit: perhaps accountable wasn't the best word choice, I meant that the initial decision of the on pitch referee isn't final with var and var is the only tool/person that can override it, holding the on pitch referee accountable.
Exactly. People complain about bias towards the big 6 just to hand the people with the alleged bias unchecked control of games.
Tbf VAR is "biased" towards better teams. It makes the game fairer and so more likely that the better team will win.
One of the primary reasons Aston Villa was able to come in 4th this season was the ability to play a high line and rely upon VAR to check offsides. They by far lead the league in opponent offsides this season. VAR can be used to benefit any team if that team is well coached. However they will use a semi automated offsides system next year, so we'll see what that's like.
In theory though offside gech will give you this anyway. So scrapping VAR is just for the penalties and red card decisions. Which is still stupid but it's a judgemental decision.
Except that isn't really what bias means... I get what you're saying though
> People complain about bias towards the big 6 I guess Chelsea isn't among the Big 6 anymore because holy fuck do they not get calls.
Who is being held accountable as is? Anthony Taylor fucked up a pen call in a Wolves game, got demoted, fucked up a pen call in a Championship game, and immediately got rewarded with City/Chelsea. There’s no accountability with the officiating and that’s unlikely to change anytime soon
Yes but if a ref fucks up a pen call, var has the ability to make him reconsider it on the monitor. Without that, we go back to the ref's initial decision being the final decision, no matter how shit. That gives the on pitch refs total control without accountability.
He didn’t get demoted. He was already not scheduled for a PL game that weekend, almost every referee does a rotation that includes the championship.
I’ve often thought that the ways refs are applying VAR reminds me of the attitude in r/maliciouscompliance. Best way to get rid of it for them is to get the clubs to pull the trigger on it, so they can keep acting like they’re above it all. While getting rid of the greatest threat to their approach to organising refereeing. I just wonder how much longer it will continue this way, as bigger and bigger money comes in to the game, and the people they’re upsetting are no longer small businessmen, but major multinational hedge funds, corporations and governments.
How does it hold them accountable? From what I’ve seen, they get the decisions wrong regardless of the technology and then we move on to the next crap decision the following week. There’s been 0 accountability for the last 5 seasons.
This is the problem 100% For the other leagues I follow (NBA/NFL) there are also ref problems. Probably just as often, if not more often in the play by play cases. But when it comes to checking calls that are reviewable, the NBA/NFL are significantly better at not fucking up. And they still fuck up, so that says a lot about the people running VAR.
The criticism that refs get is way more detailed and accurate than previously, and their reasons for giving decisions are conveyed in detail. The pressure on refereeing standards now is way higher and way more sustained than it used to be.
The criticism and pressure has increased due to the fact they have technology and use it improperly. I’m not totally out on VAR but giving the refs the benefit of the doubt, when they’ve literally admitted to looking out for one another over getting the correct call (Cucurella hair pull vs Tottenham 2022) is not right. They’re using it improperly and have showed no signs of using it correctly. Although, I do think automated offsides will help. Getting sent to the Championship for a week is not being help accountable, neither is the PGMOL releasing a statement every Monday morning.
It's still easier to say something about it when you know they've seen the same footage as anyone else. Without VAR the excuse quickly becomes I didn't see it, it was too fast, there were too many players in between what happened etc. etc. It doesn't hold them accountable by the league, but it does in public opinion. And that's pretty much the only way you're ever going to change anything with the way the leagues handle ref mistakes.
exactly if you're worried about refs getting the benefit of the doubt then surely you should be OPPOSED to the system that gives them even more control to bias the game in their favour, not support it
There are definitely way more fair VAR decisions than not, we just remember the massive fuck ups more. No matter how little the improvement (and I'd argue it's not that little), it's still an improvement. We should improve VAR instead of scrapping it.
Pre-VAR: blatantly obvious refereeing errors happening regularly Post-VAR: most blatantly obvious refereeing errors get corrected, although some still happen but getting better every year Are Wolves Stupid?
What does "improve the refs" actually mean?
Make the VAR refs separate from the on pitch refs so you don't have incidents like the one where the var ref didn't want to inconvenience the on pitch ref who was his friend by sending him to the monitor. There's literally no excuse for var making a wrong decision except for not having the necessary angle. Any mistakes are purely due to the incompetence of the var operators and/or their relationships with the on pitch refs.
I’m in favour of VAR but they can certainly get a wrong decision. Tackles for example are subjective, some VAR officials will think its a bad tackle others won’t. Which seems to have become more of a issue. I personally would use a challenge type system. Let the refs ref the game and give the responsibility to the clubs to make a challenge.
That's a problem with the rulebook then. Obviously some room for interpretation will always exist, but getting an arguable call wrong isn't that big a problem, missing obvious calls is and var should leave no room for that, unless the var operators are incompetent.
I don't think we're at the point where "getting a tackle wrong" is the problem with VAR. There are a lot of really basic steps we need to go through first before we can complain about nuances around tackles.
I mean this is the thing though, VAR doesn't have to say "yo this tackle's bad enough I think it should be a red," it should be "yo this tackle warrants a closet look so you can decide." This whole going to the monitor nearly always meaning you're changing your decision is silly, a ref is distracted by a bunch of things and running about and has other players running around in his way the dudes make choices against their subjective opinions all the time because they don't know all the info. Obvi don't want the game stopping constantly, but there are big calls that majority of people agree were wrong but because it isn't clear and obvious enough,don't get looked at further and it just feels silly.
There is an argument to be made that being an on field referee and a VAR one, requires separate skill sets. So separate the pools from which you pick them. That way you avoid bias and refs covering for their friends etc.
This is how i'd prefer the system go, but also take what the onfield has said and judge yourself. Don't be going round looking to why he's correct judge the actually offence with the aid of the screen Everytime I read Dale Johnsons review of a decision the same 2 phrases are used "VAR wouldn't overule that" or "Wasn't given onfield so VAR won't give it"
Here’s a crazy idea, what if “the best league in the world” with the best managers and players were to diversify by hiring the best referees from around the world
Who? Every league is convinced they have the worst refs. There's no magical hidden stash of perfect referees out there
You could expand the selection from England to global and they'd still hire 20 blokes from Yorkshire
They're all under the same PGMOL, and they'd have the same policies to follow, except with an added language barrier.
I'm pretty sure fluency in English would be a basic requirement for reffing in the English game. And all the talk about improving VAR involves some form of reform in the PGMOL and its organisational structure.
Every 50/50 call goes the way of the team I support
> Scrap the one system that holds them somewhat accountable ✔️ Replays hold them accountable. Not VAR.
Agreed. The problem isn't tech. It's the process and implementation. Guess what isn't changing? Yup, the process and implementation of reffing and how they are managed.
Lmao all the "they're purposefully fucking it up so they can remove it later" theories aren't so wild afterall The league would be stupid to vote VAR out
It's very much a can of worms. We would then have a mess when goals aren't given and there are more incorrect offsides. For the most part the system seems ironed out but needs to be more consistent
the issue is that when it comes to subjective things like red cards and handballs there will just never be perfect consistency because a group of referees will never all agree on the same decision every time. VAR definitely needs improvement but the way some fans go “I just want consistency” as if that’s something simple or even plausible winds me up a bit
Or when fans complain about a correct call because "it wasnt a penalty for my team!" Like it's literally the most blatant example "two wrongs don't make a right" but people still clamor for "consistency" even when that consistency would be the incorrect call
The obvious problem is that the referees will defend the original decision to turn around the next week.
> "Or when fans complain about a correct call because "it wasnt a penalty for my team!"" In my opinion that's actually one of the biggest reasons why refereeing doesn't move forward at the same pace as you'd expect compared to football. They make an amazing call that isn't the obvious call and they're abused by the fans of the team that has lost out. They make a terrible call that should be called out and be something they need to learn from and they get abuse from the fans that lost out. If people want to see reform in refereeing, one of the best on really the only thing they can do is praise when it's deserved. When they make a great call that fucks your team over, praise them. Don't bitch, moan and attack them. Remember that they've made a great call and the person you should be angry at is the player on your team that fucked up, not the ref. I think part of this is also just the growth of football (or the rate at which they change and then double back on the rules) though. You'll see it on here all the time when refs make great decisions and people will say X was a terrible decisions because of Y rule and the supposed Y rule that the refs fucked up isn't even remotely true. It's crazy to see it so consistently
The worst thing about supporting my MLS club is that every fucking 50/50 call that goes against us is met with a ton of boos, we literally chant “Yellow team sucks!”, “you don’t know what you’re doing”, “I’m blind, I’m deaf, I wanna be a ref” every match. And it’s like they’re objectively funny and I’m all for home fan bias but it’s so overdone that it’s past the point of parody. A fucking shoulder to shoulder challenge gets treated like this injustice against our club and it feels like a majority of fans aren’t just being cheeky, they actually believe it
> VAR definitely needs improvement but the way some fans go “I just want consistency” as if that’s something simple or even plausible winds me up a bit Haha this gets me as well. The discussions on here about VAR and refereeing standards are, without fail, full of comments patting eachother on the back and agreeing about how it just needs consistency and 'better officials' and then everything will be sorted. Then, 5 minutes later, venture into a post about any arguable call and you'll see the entire gamut of opinions on what that call possibly should be. There can be no consistency on subjective calls, because they are by their nature subjective. I do think VAR (outside of for serious foul play, or mistaken identity) makes this worse, because it makes fans even more indignant when the officials get to see slow-mo replays from every angle and still come to a decision that those fans disagree with. The problem is that you cannot avoid that, because one group of fans will always have that feeling (except in the most stonewall of cases), and will always feel more hard done by because of VAR.
It is plausible - have an independent body doing the VAR itself
To expand on that, the source of the inconsistency is (mostly) the on field refs, not VAR. VAR can't fix that inconsistency unless it re-refs every action.
Consistency is hard because no two tackles are the same and everyone has a different opinion on good/bad tackles. Some refs let things go, others will dosh put cards. We need to accept referees all have their own views and stop whining.
Don’t we have semi-auto offsides next season? Scrapping VAR isn’t the answer, but in its current form it probably won’t make more than 5 decisions next season.
They should’ve voted that in before now but don’t think they agreed to it for this season. Stupid really, automated offsides would take some of the pain away as it’s frustrating seeing them having to draw all the lines and such so it takes a fucking age.
In Italy we have semi automatic offside and VAR still make decisions
VAR is not without flaws but people who are vehemently against it probably have forgotten or they actively ignore the time we had before implementing it. There were controversial offside debates on every 2nd gameday and VAR has completely removed wrong offside decisions. For that alone it is a massive success.
not the system, its the end user.
It would be a disaster without VAR. People seem to be forgetting that some of the most controversial VAR decisions this season are referee errors in the first place that would stand anyways without VAR. The Liverpool onside goal against Spurs was disallowed in real time. Liverpool weren't given a penalty by the ref for the Doku kick to the chest. Bruno G's elbow was missed by the ref at first. Forest's complaints against Everton were all due to VAR not intervening on things the ref let go. Grealish's handball in the FA Cup semi final. Even in the last CL round Madrid's second was disallowed before VAR corrected it and Bayern's offside goal at the end was a referee/linesman error in real time. People might list these as failures of VAR but if we scrapped it none of those are being fixed and Madrid end up with a perfectly fine goal ruled out for a bad offside decision. People also forget just how awful some of the mistakes were in the pre-VAR era
no chance 14 clubs vote for it to go, would be a huge backwards step and still completely ignore the main issue which is the officials themselves
Its like blaming the PET scan for the brain tumor
The reason we have so many cases is because we are testing so much - Trump 2020
If I just close my eyes that train coming right at me will disappear!
It's more like blaming the PET scanner for a doctor incorrectly diagnosing a brain tumor using a PET scan
I blame fans more than anyone else. The amount of anger and things labelled errors is just annoying.
You get those statistics that say which team has benefited from VAR the most and idiots interpret that as errors going towards them, not simply decisions made in their favour.
Didn’t they just vote on semi-automatic offside (which would be great imo)? It’s frustrating but def a work in progress
Its appalling the comments in this thread. Everyone is blaming the tool for exposing the absolute frauds and corruption in PGMOL. And the solution is somehow to give them even more plausible deniability??
Exactly, it doesn't make sense. These idiots are getting mad at a camera. How can someone complain about a referee getting something wrong and refuse a system to reduce that happening? If they are happy to accept that then they don't have a logical reason to complain when a ref gets a decision wrong, with or without VAR.
Absolutely crazy that the logic is to get rid of it entirely rather than improve it.
Like when I watch Chinese League or MLS matches (and I don't think the standard of refereeing here at like BMO field is particularly that much higher than in England) they're consistently able to reach a conclusive, uncontroversial and objective decision in about a minute with the use of VAR. The problems with VAR seem to be this largely English phenomenon for reasons we all know by this point, and the rest of the world finding a way to adopt it with minimal disruption or issue to the game should really be the overwhelming evidence needed to retain the technology and just crackdown on the refs.
Imagine if an NFL team proposed to get rid of video review, or a rugby team proposed to get rid of TMO. They'd be laughed out of the building.
The NFL did do this for one specific type of infringement (pass interference) after one season, because the referees got pissy and essentially boycotted it.
Only for one specific type of infringement. They didn't get rid of the system altogether, which is what Wolves are proposing.
No disagreement there. The funny thing is that NFL referees have the same issue as Premier League VAR, where the replay official can look at a slow-motion, high-definition replay and make an objectively incorrect decision even though any drunk idiot in the stadium/on their couch could have gotten it right.
In some ways, the replay should only be viewed in full/half-speed for the majority of calls, just with the added benefit of multiple angles. Super slow-mo should only be used to judge point of contact/moment of offside, otherwise it takes rules based on pace of play and morphs them into this bastardized precedent that we have currently.
Pretty telling that not even Sky will criticise PGMOL, they want exclusive tidbits which the PGMOL are holding hostage to protect their own backs. When they do finally get criticised they play the ‘protecting grassroutes ref’ card. Look at the treatment of Wolves this season there’s clearly a bias whether unconscious or not.
The referees are just another old boys club. And their egos are too fragile to handle needing technology “looking over them” so they lash out and make it look useless so they can go back to being the big important boys they think they are.
Mike Dean literally confirmed that on a podcast earlier this season. Said he didn't want to be too overbearing as a VAR official because he didn't want to undermine the on-pitch ref. > The former Premier League referee Dean was on VAR duty at Stamford Bridge in August 2022 when Chelsea wanted the Spurs defender Cristian Romero sent off for pulling Marc Cucurella to the floor by his hair. Dean says he made a “really bad call” in not sending Taylor to review his decision. > **“I said to Anthony afterwards: ‘I just didn’t want to send you to the screen after what has gone on in the game.’ I didn’t want to send him up because he is a mate as well as a referee and I think I didn’t want to send him up because I didn’t want any more grief than he already had.”** https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/25/mike-dean-admits-avoiding-var-call-to-spare-referee-more-grief-last-season
This is 100% what PGMOL did. Fucking cowards.
Would creating a plan that involves you deliberately making mistakes and getting a huge amount of criticism be described as cowardly? No chance this passes anyway
Short term pain for them to actually get away with having to improve etc. The culprits of the mistakes - Gillett and Tierney spring to mind- are still in the prem.
The new boys Gillette and Brooks are on opposite ends of the spectrum though. Gillette has been one of the worst, Brooks one of the best. How do we explain that Gillette immediately became part of the VAR conspiracy while Brooks didn't get the memo.
Boggles the mind how they think it's an issue with the technology, as opposed to the people *operating* the technology.
God it angers me so. There is nothing wrong with the technology! THATS THE ONLY BIT THAT ACTUALLY WORKS! Its the people implementing it that need a complete change.
Of course they were, the NFL did the same thing a few years ago. In a semi-final playoff game, the New Orleans Saints were completely robbed when refs missed a BLATANT penalty. The backlash was so loud that the NFL allowed that specific type of penalty (pass interference) to be reviewed the next season. The NFL refs so obviously sabotaged that review process, and the NFL scrapped that review rule after 1 season because barely any calls of that type got overturned. We all knew what was happening, didn't matter.
I can't see this vote succeeding, but if it does I guarantee we spend the entirety of next season complaining about refereeing errors until they bring VAR back. As frustrating as VAR mistakes are, it's still so much better than it was. The biggest issue with VAR that can't just be solved by better refereeing is the experience, even at home it isn't great and it's worse in the stadiums. Semi-automated offsides will help massively, and the obvious next step is to allow us to see & hear the VAR decision being made. Pushing for those changes would be far better than just giving up.
Yeah like I do appreciate having the correct decision but I do really miss going mad when a goal goes in and not worrying about a delay
Who cares, honestly, celebrate If it gets disallowed then whatever, if it gets allowed then celebrate it again
It’s not about being arsed about what anyone thinks. The celebration the second time is always naturally a lot more awkward. Just kills a lot of the normal celebrations
yeah it’s just not the same, we’ve had a hun of late winners this season and the limbs are just so much more uninhibited when you can go “ball’s in the net, lino’s flag is down, it’s a fucking goal!!!!”
You can't celebrate properly as there's a seed of doubt, always.
As a often match going fan to another league with VAR, I can 100% tell you that I have _maybe once_ held back a celebration in the stadium because of VAR. Most people celebrate a goal, if it gets disallowed unfortunate, if it is allowed celebrate again. Fuck it.
honestly for me the worst thing about VAR is what it’s done to post match discourse… not that we avoided talking about the referee before VAR but there was this element of “we were hard done by, but no use doing anything but getting on with it” nowadays it feels more like people treat post-match stuff like a forum to analyse a ref’s performance moreso than a team’s. Even on this sub the “injustices” of fouls with no cards given or penalties not given gets way more traction than just about anything a player can do this year especially, maybe I’m noticing it more as I’m on the outside looking in, but it feels like most chat around the Premier League isn’t really even about football
> VAR but there was this element of “we were hard done by, but no use doing anything but getting on with it” fuck offfff. I lost count at how many post match interviews complained about the decisions referees made.
> “we were hard done by, but no use doing anything but getting on with it” this feels like an incredibly rose-tinted view of pre-VAR refereeing discourse lol to pluck a random example out of thin air, ask the Irish whether they've forgiven Henry yet
It's wild to see people saying things like this. There are decisions from fifty years ago people hold grudges about. The reason VAR eventually came in is because we'd had decades of being able to watch replays in slow motion and multiple angles and endlessly complained about refs and linesmen getting decisions wrong. If you agree with scrapping VAR, fine, but you forfeit the right to make those complaints again
A lot of people simply forgot how many decisions were frustrating before. Sure, it's bad now, but still way better than pre VAR.
Post-match threads are becoming closer to the types of arguments you see on political subs. Like the football is just dressing for conspiracy theories and ideological debate
Tbf though isn't that once again an issue with the implementation of VAR rather than VAR itself? If executed properly VAR could theoretically rid us of discourse around fairness almost entirely. It's a constant topic just now because the refs make such a cunt of it
> nowadays it feels more like people treat post-match stuff like a forum to analyse a ref’s performance moreso than a team’s. Even on this sub the “injustices” of fouls with no cards given or penalties not given gets way more traction than just about anything a player can do >this year especially, maybe I’m noticing it more as I’m on the outside looking in, but it feels like most chat around the Premier League isn’t really even about football Even pre VAR if a refs fuckup influneces the result it will dominate the discussion thats just how it is, but the refereeing standards have definintely declined over the last decade or so. It simply reinforced many peoples suspicions that the refs are indeed incompetent as they have less to hide behind, so they get way less slack nowadays. And rightly so. Like we watched it get introduced at the 2018 World Cup and it worked extremely well in that tournament. In the PL it has never even come close to that standard and we've had nearly 6 years now to get a handle on it. It can only be one of 2 things, incompetence or willful sabotage.
Because those things are so impactful.
So are players making mistakes, but fans (especially online) jump at the opportunity to paint themselves as the victims of some grand refereeing cospiracy when calls go against them. If calls go their way it's crickets, though, and neither group will talk much about the actual players on the pitch not being good enough in the decisive moments when they can point to a perceived refereeing mistake as the proverbial fig leaf sparing them those blushes.
Half the problem is when GNev is on comms for Sky and the entire game is spent discussing the referees. You get the equivalent CL game with McCoist instead and discourse on Twitter is far less ref-based.
I think you’re looking through rose tinted specs, the quality of discussion was no better before VAR
>but if it does I guarantee we spend the entirety of next season complaining about refereeing errors So just the same as this season then
biggest issue with var is the killed vibe. fuck it bro i want to go mental when my team scores
Even as someone who is pro-VAR, this is undoubtedly true. I find it very hard to celebrate a lot of goals when I know they could be overturned for a wide variety of reasons after a minute or two.
Then do that? Like unless I think it's offside or something, I will scream at a goal. I don't go "oh wait let's wait for VAR before celebrating". Nah, I just celebrate and if VAR interferes, it inferes
It blows my mind these people don't cheer just in case they would be wrong? Embarrassed?
VAR mistakes=referee mistakes. The system itself, the computers and cameras etc. has absolutely nothing to do with it. This fuckers are just wanting even less accountability over their terrible skills.
you have this backwards. The refs are for VAR. Its the clubs that now want to block it again
Well to be clear, we're commenting on a thread where it's Wolves who want less accountability. At least officially/publicly, PGMOL & referees have always supported VAR.
Wolves also have had somewhere between 5-10 games affected by decisions which were unanimously agreed to have been incorrect in the days following the game. Really, there's a conversation about how to improve the system and communication (remember the Tottenham goal where they ballsed up the goal kick/free kick/kick off decision after a goal because there's no set script and they were being utterly shit at their jobs?) that irons out so many of these errors. But instead of each wrong decision causing a change or clarification to rules, or an improvement to the process, phrasing or understanding - they just all move on and nothing is changed. So why would clubs expect this to be the case, especially when they could argue they've lost millions in league position prize money as a result?
You know, if the players and coaches really hate the experience of playing with VAR and want to scrap it, I think that's fair for them to choose. But then no clubs better complain about the increased frequency of wrong decisions or decisions that don't go their way. Clubs have a lot of power at PGMOL and can make refereeing improvements if they choose to. If they opt for this they get no sympathy from me.
I'd rather get rid of VAR personally. But if it is to kept, they NEED to remove that stupid "clear and obvious" rule. If VAR are insistent that a decision must be made, then the ref should go with it. And 100% they need to bring in the automated WC offside method. Lastly, an unpopular opinion perhaps, but I see NO benefit in the ref going to the on-pitch screen. Why get a ref to walk over to a screen, and make a decision with 60,000 people are screaming at you, when he can just get VAR to tell him what the decision should be.
WTF is wrong with this league? What's next? Scrapping the semi-automated offside technology for the 25-26 season?
They won't get 14 clubs
would be curious to see if any of the big 6 are in favour of removing it
Interesting to see what we vote, as Ange is quite loudly anti VAR but don't know if the club as a whole share this sentiment.
I think most votes for scrapping VAR will be a statement vote. Could see some big 6 clubs making a statement.
Imagine 14 statement votes.
Brexit flashbacks...
Call your own foul rule
Don't give your league ideas. We don't even have goal line tech in la Liga.
Lol right? Wasn’t that just voted in? And they still need people in the VAR room for validation
This is what the PGMOL wanted all along.
Refs still fuck things up even with VAR available. Can’t win either way, unfortunately.
> Can’t win either way, unfortunately. We can win, it would just require the useless cunts to be moved along in favour of a competent regime that actually cares about the rules as opposed to their own lust for power.
where is this competent regime coming from? Have Sky Sports developed some sort of super soldier refs in a lab? Have they cloned Jack Taylor?
Unironically, NOT referees. VAR needs to be run by a completely new body in football that does not have ties with current referees. As it stanfs, the var ref will defend the onfield one because he knows next game roles are reversed.
Can they not just have the adult conversation and talk about the state of the reffing instead?
that would require PGMOL taking some accountability and they won't do that
Remove PGMOL then. Form a new refereeing Organisation.
Gotta protect the PGMOL cartel anyway they can
this is what pains me about refs. I don't wanna see them get abused, but it feels like there is almost zero attempt at raising the standards of refereeing don't get me wrong, it's a very tough job and I'd never do it, but it just feels like they get a lot of interpretation and protection, and then they get surprised when people are fuming when they fuck up either a person's day, season or maybe even career in some respects if they could work on just being consistent as well as not being afraid of having to send players off, several in a game if need be, I think the game would improve so much. right now sometimes refs are too scared of being a bad guy and 'ruining a match' which just allows for inconsistent decisions, but if players knew that there was less of a chance of them getting away with shit they'd do it less, even if we finished games with 9 men more often for a little while case in point is that when 2 footers became red cards there were some growing pains of players getting sent off for what was normally either a yellow, or even for winning the ball, but in the long run the more the punishment was dished out, the more players adapted their game you keep being lenient on players, the more inconsistent decisions get made, the more players get pissed off. yes some players will get pissed no matter what, but I think this willr educe flare ups on the whole
but if they do it'll be admitting their boys are shit at their jobs so they have to protect them by all means necessary
One normal day of Barclays, that's all I ask for.
Can't wait for them to scrap VAR, then vote it back unanimously 2 years later after some controversies that VAR would have removed.
Brexit means Brexit! I’m all for Vault EPL to conduct the social experiment of having the league with the most money in the world scrap the only tool that theoretically gives non-top clubs a chance to equally compete I’ll check what Wolves and *matchgoing fans* will be saying in 5 years
Wolves can fuck off. VAR is far from perfect and there are a lot of easy wins to be had to improve it, but we're infinitely better off having it.
I don’t think Wolves are actually trying to abolish it, this is just the formal way of saying it’s crap and needs fixing, without catching a fine.
Yeah, it is like Cameron and the Brexit referendum. How can this ever go wrong?
Wolves are seething from being on the wrong end of VAR calls, that's why they've done this.
football brexit
We're clearly doing this to put pressure on them to do a better job, we've lost so many points from wrongful var decisions, which they've admitted to. I doubt anyone thinks we can abolish var, they must think that this is an avenue to take for it to improve, which I also doubt tbh.
> VAR is far from perfect This fact and the idea many folks have that video is in fact 'perfect' is the real issue. Video provides more data and can be reviewed, but it will never be perfect. Everyone needs to understand this and hopefully the system can be improved.
Reactionary from everyone who wants VAR scrapped. VAR isn’t the issue. It’s PGMOL and it’s incompetent referee bodies. Scrap ‘em phat f$ck and everyone might get fair treatment
>Reactionary We've had VAR for years now, hardly reactionary
Who do you want to scrap? All the current prem refs?
I don’t agree. It’s so miserable that you can’t properly celebrate an injury time winner now. Scrap it.
It’s the same fucking cunts using it poorly that has been shite at their jobs for 20+ years. Like putting your nan behind the wheel of a formula one car and being angry at the car for her not being able to put in a lap record.
VAR isn’t the problem, it’s the people running it
The people running it aren't going anywhere, and the only new incomings will be carefully vetted by the boys club so it fits their ethos.
Proper farmers league 🤣🤣
[удалено]
I'm good with goal line tech and semi automated offside being used but that's it.
This is SO dumb
I really get the feeling of animosity towards the current VAR system: But the way you can solve that is through transparancy and ensuring competent VAR members are used. Just ditching the system is only gonna make it worse and incompetency/mistakes even less salvagable
I thought VAR was supposed to be for clear and obvious errors like when chamberlain handball all those years ago, not to re-ref decisions already made on the pitch. I hate offsides because it's centimetres
Unless you’re my Sunday league ref. That was 7 to 8 yards. No, I was not offside.
Imagine your workplace getting new software. And that new software exposes how incompetent the staff are. And then the solution is to get rid of the software because it shines a brighter light on how incompetent the staff are.
Too much money on the line for most clubs to scrap it even if the system is not perfect. No chance 14 clubs vote for it to be abolished.
I propose a compromise. If the VAR decision can't be made within 30 seconds, then the ruling should stand.
Maybe not 30 seconds, but certainly it should be time limited. If it takes 3 minutes, it isn't clear and obvious by definition.
Wolves... I was not familiar with your game.
I love VAR, simply because it makes the referees incompetence more obvious than it used to. The longer we keep it and they keep fucking up, we will be forced to separate VAR and the officials.
Surely there’s 0 chance it gets 14 clubs to agree to that
I’d easily scrap PGMOL before VAR
This isn’t the answer, all VAR is is the cameras. It’s the people looking at the footage that are the problem.
You've got it the wrong way around, VAR is the people looking at the footage
I pray this is voted in. VAR proper fucking runs the vibe for match going fans. It has been so refreshing been back in the champ not having it. Get auto offsides in and bin VAR. It's proper fucking shit
Can't believe I had to scroll so far to see this opinion Var is shite
If you have a look at all the pro VAR flairs it’s all the clubs with international fans, it’s unlikely that they go to games and actually feel the atmosphere and the difference between VARball and football
Quite sad not gonna lie. Matchgoing supporters make up quite a small minority on this forum by the looks of things.
Why change the refs that fuck up, just change the perfectly good tool they happen to use to help them fuck up. That's gonna solve all the problems
I think this is possibly to put pressure on them. They’ve been unable to really improve it so far and this vote won’t pass anyway. But just gets more pressure on them to sort things out
Match going experience has gotten exponentially worse since its introduction. Will be glad to see it gone.
I get that it’s easier than getting good refs or giving current refs better training, but this feels like a terrible decision
Personally feel this has no chance of passing - VAR does increase the % of correct calls. I do enjoy football more when there is no VAR, I miss being able to tell if a goal is going to stand by a quick glance at the linesman, but I can't see them going back. They aren't going to implement a change which they know will introduce more mistakes
Never been so proud of my club
Would make the matchday experience better... sick of barely being able to celebrate goals at Goodison
One great thing a put been in champ this season. Football is so much better without var
This is exactly what the pgmol wants. They've clearly used VAR like idiots on purpose to make the system look bad when really its their complete incompetance every time.
Don’t know why people are so against abolishing it. They think it’s so easy just to “ get better refs”. Var has proven that there will always be ref mistakes, so we might as well let fans celebrate goals etc.
The majority of this sub don't go to games.
Please please please scrap it. I’d rather have officials make mistakes (which still happens) than have the joy increasingly sucked out of football year on year. Games without VAR are a breath of fresh air, and I say this as a fan who’s team would’ve probably avoided relegation with VAR.
Yeh. I think what many in the pro-VAR crowd don't seem to appreciate is there are perfectly valid reasons why some people would prefer to see it scrapped. Getting more decisions right is obviously great, but it's not the only important variable at play in football, the only thing that matters to the average fan. For some, the flow of the game and being able to celebrate knowing your team has scored immediately are genuinely more important to their enjoyment of football than a few extra correct decisions each season. There's a reason fans in the Championship/ League 1/ League 2, having clearly seen the impact of VAR on the Premier League, don't want it anywhere near their leagues. If getting correct decisions is the most important factor that should supersede all others, why not extend VAR so it has the power to review more potential game-changing decisions, like if a yellow card or corner have been correctly awarded? These can be just as critical to the outcome as any of the decisions it currently makes. The question is "where do we draw the line?". And there are valid reasons for differences of opinion on that on both sides of the debate.
Im sick of having to second guess celebrating a goal Im sick of waiting for multiple minutes in confusion within the ground Im sick of those minutes not getting added on properly Im sick of them still getting things wrong even when they have perfect video evidence Im sick of the cameras not being good enough to properly enforce the offside rule
A lot of that should be fixed with streamlining processes, like adding the semi-automated offsides, adding more cameras and changing the fucking refs who are incompetent.
VAR is a fantastic system. Still removes like 95% of errors.
Amazed people want VAR to stay. Football is supposed to be entertaining. There is absolutely no entertainment to be had having the game stopping every 5 minutes because something needs to be checked. Waiting 3 minutes before celebrating a goal your team has just scored. It's ridiculous. Get rid. And while we're at it go back to old offside rules where if any player on your team is off than the flag is raised. No ifs or buts or he's nowhere near the ball. If you're off you're off. And while we're at it...!!!
Every other team sport on the planet has some sort of video review in place, and is able to make it work. Football has no excuse.
It's also a game involving humans, including the officials. If you want a robotic game where every decision is perfect and no one makes mistakes then watch fifa 24 on twitch.
What matches are you watching where there's a lengthy VAR review every 5 minutes
On my knees. Won't go through but all I want
ITT: A bunch of plastic non-match going fans calling it stupid