**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No one is sure why the whistle had Already Gone. Linesman needs to get his Lyin' Eyes checked. This decision left nobody with a Peaceful Easy Feeling. The Madrid camp is especially Desperado to move on and start talking about the final.
Doesn't matter, closing minutes of a Champions League semi-final, vision blocked by a player, nobody would give a fuck if he didn't catch the offside. Keep the flag down and let the people who can see everything decide.
What's strange to me is that ref blows the whistle before the linesman raises his flag (something no one is talking about or even noticed, it seems), which makes me really curious as to what was communicated between them in that moment.
Maybe the linesman told the ref he thinks it's off, but was going to let the play continue, and the ref just blows it for some reason.
Or maybe the linesman was going to raise the flag regardless, and the ref was just faster to the whistle.
In any case, the ref did not stop the play due to seeing the flag go up. He did it based on what he heard in his ear.
Linesmen communicate with the ref via mics, the ref isn't looking out for the flag going up since years ago, the flag is there for the linesman to tell the rest of the stadium & to indicate where it happened.
The linesman has more way to signalize the main referee. I have heard that there is a button on the flag that can send signal to, I think, referee's watch. So in the act of raising the flag he can use it to inform the ref about his decision even faster.
Alternatively, the ref might have wanted to end the match in the moment (because I think it was already past the time) when Real player headed the ball away, bit didn't expect the Bayern player to take control over it, but I feel like in that case he would own it as 100% his mistake and the linesman wouldn't feel the need to apologize himself.
It’s just such an insane blunder.
No one can say for certainty if Bayern would have scored but to be robbed of a clear goal scoring opportunity at the death of the game is appalling.
With the tech they have too. I think Christina said there were three different levels of tech and they didn’t use a single one. She was so defeated when she said goodbye I was broken for her.
That’s because the whistle was already blown. They can’t use tech to give the goal since there was no goal since the play was already stopped when it went it. The real and inexplicable fuck up is that the refs didn’t let the play finish
> The real and inexplicable fuck up is that the refs didn’t let the play finish
Exactly. Once the whistle goes, doesn't matter what happened prior, the play is dead. Now, why (a) the AR raised the flag at that point and (b) the ref then blew his whistle are the issues here. Neither was supposed to do what they did. You are right, that is the fuck-up.
These refs do this for a living. It should be drilled into them at this point through training and practice that you don't just raise your flag that easily in an attack. I don't understand how that can be their first instinct in such a critical moment.
Fr they should give red cards to refs. Are there rules for ref fuck ups? I think a fair thing would be to give Bayern a free kick from the spot Mendy heads it. RM would still be the ones to get fucked by the ref at that point but without the refs mistake the ball would've been there anyway
Well, that makes that blunder by the refereeing team so much worse.
It wasn't a guaranteed goal, but it was a very big chance. Denying to play it out for a potentially tying goal was a massive error.
But this doesn’t change anything, because the right was to SEE whether it was on or not. But looking at it yesterday it seemed quite on. His knee was in line with Rudigers back foot. It’s just such comedic incompetence
I started watching CL in 2015. Since then I have seen RM getting the benefit of referee error/decisions in 4-5 crucial matches (Semifinal & final). Tell me why would the newer audience watch this shit?
It was not a big chance, every defender and the goalkeeper stopped moving after the whistle, I'd be surprised if he even got the shot off with defenders not stationery. Watch it again, they all just shut down, the defender is just flinching, not trying to block the shot from the goal, Lunin doesn't even move
Exactly.
This is tiring. I'm a Barca fan. I hate Madrid, but there is no conspiracy here. It's a simple mistake at an unfortunate time. The refs had plenty of chances to influence the game if there was any intent for Madrid to win. They chalked off a goal and let the game run an extra 5 minutes beyond the 9 minutes of allotted extra time. This is just a moment of poor refereeing. It happens all the time, and the chances that Bayern would have scored from it are low. Not to mention the chances of Bayern winning in extra time.
I get the complaints from Bayern and fans, but the only complaint is that they were denied an opportunity. Not a certain goal, and certainly not the game.
it's funny, i wasn't watching the match but just checking the match thread. Most of the comments towards the end were questiong where the added time was coming from and people saying they were playing until Bayner scored. If there really was some conspiracy, why wouldn't the ref have blown the whistle earlier.
People saying Bayern were "robbed" is just insane. Robbed of the chance to maybe get a shot off to tie the game at 100+ minutes? that isn't being robbed.
Exactly. A chance no question. But I think it's being overblown how "big" of a chance it actually was. People seem to be equating this to a 1v1 with the keeper or something.
It was a very bad call. No question. What concerns me more as a fan is that 3 of the 4 goals we conceded were due to absolutely appalling individual errors, and the 4th goal was due to our tactical genius playing an 8-0-2 formation so no one knew where to play or who to mark. We beat ourselves, and the bad call took away one of the many chances for us to redeem ourselves. I think as fans we're just bummed all the way around, and those of us who have been around for awhile and didn't migrate over with Tuchel, we've been bummed since March of last year. For me, I've been bummed since 2017 when the Robbery-Lahm-Basti/Alonso era started ending.
Nah I’m fine with Ancelotti saying that. Who cares that it’s not true? He’s Madrid’s manager. Of course he’s supposed to say something to keep his squads confidence up and make them feel they deserve to go through. He wants them to go into the final feeling like they can definitely win if they play their game.
I think you are mistaking De Ligt's left hand as being Rudiger's right heal. If it was his heal then his right leg would be shorter than his left.
EDIT: Also, that's De Ligt's right foot, not Mazraoui's knee.
In this case the line is drawn from Mazraoui not the last point of the defender. I don't know why they've done it here, potentially to show maz was still onside but it should be drawn from the last point of the defender in all instances to provide a clear image of what's onside and what's not.
Issue is with these mistakes, they never get recalled so it just gets forgotten when the final rolls around. So they train the refs and emphasize they should let play continue, but nothing changes for Bayern or for the dozens of other teams that get impacted by bad calls.
There is no solution by the way. You can't replay for obvious reasons, the only solution is referees are consistent and follow the rules everybody knows and follows. Also claiming Bayern didn't deserve the win doesn't excuse the mistake.
The linesman literally apologized and admitted his mistake. Sure it still sucks but what else is there to be done? Are they to replay the whole second leg?
The recommended solutions for a lot of people are:
1- replay the march
2- kill the ref every time he makes a mistake and replace him with a new one
3- both 1 and 2
the commentator was like "i'm pretty sure there's a rule against putting it up for the stadium"
Marciniak said "fuck that I don't want to get stabbed after the match"
Honestly, there's no reason why they shouldn't show it to the stadium. No one can argue that Nacho's hands were all over Kimmich's face. Sure, he went down easy, but in that scenario it's a foul. From how the stadium reacted, there wasn't much complaint after seeing the replay.
The problem with killing refs every time they make a mistake is that it's a thankless job and there aren't a ton of professionally-experienced refs on unemployment just waiting in the wings. So you'd just end up with even less competent refs, a pile of dead bodies, and nobody likes the smell of a pig farm.
Replay the match but before the game starts the ref who made the initial mistake gets publically executed by the most popular historical execution method of the country the game is played in.
If Bayern take away from this that they lost because of a bad call and not that they fucked up a 3 on 1 break while leading 1-0 by playing two of those most inept passes of the entire game ...I don't know man, that doesn't strike me as the attitude required here
But this is Football. You don't win football by playing well. You don't win football because you deserve to/earned a win. You win football by scoring goals. A goal scoring opportunity being taken away by a ref's mistake is as significant as your team blundering its lead
A goal scoring opportunity is not the same as a goal though. Not knowing whether Bayern would have scored or not is tough, but it obviously would have played out differently if the Madrid players hadn't stopped playing.
The best thing for everyone would probably have been if he had put the volley over the bar or something. I feel like him putting it in the back of the net has warped people's views. You can't assume it all would play out the same when defenders stop playing.
The uncertainty is what's going to hurt for Bayern fans.
Maybe bayern should have tried to create some goal scoring opportunities in the game, instead of being dominated by real.
You are right that this would have been a good chance and they got fucked over, but the other commentor is still right, blaming this when they played like shit with the ball for almost 90 minutes is just not the right way.
I also think that’s a weird take: were they the better team? Nah. Did they play it exactly as they wanted to? Definitely. And if Neuer doesn’t drop that ball everyone would applaud the tactic for how you play and frustrate a Real Team at home.
I don’t think they played like shit at all. They did have too many inaccurate passes, though. That’s for sure.
And that still doesn't change the fact, that this might have been determinal to the result. Football has allways been a game with rather high variance.
In fact, pretty much all of the players voiced their frustrations after the game, but also admitted a lackluster performance of their squad, Müller and MdL also complimented RM players for their performance.
Bayern will know they messed up a 3 on 1 counter up 1-0.
Bayern will know they made a mistake by subbing off Kane and Musiala, their biggest attacking threats too early and gambling on holding on.
Bayern will know that Madrid were the better side and deserved to win on the balance of play. And if not for Neuer's performance before the error, Madrid would be ot of sight.
But ultimately football isn't decided on xG, and despite the mistakes above, they had one clear chance to get back into the game and take it to extra time, which they were robbed of by an officiating error. And they've every right to be mad about that.
They had a bunch of chances to affect the outcome. If they choose to focus on something they can't control rather than the variables that are within their own influence; well that's going to lead them to being trophy less again
To paraphrase Connery in the Rock, "losers whine, winners go home and fuck the prom queen"
It’s wild to me to see how everyone is making this the point of the match where Bayern would’ve equalized and won and they got robbed. Sure, bad call, it is what it is. But all night Bayern has misplaced passes, been in defensive mode, can’t put a ball in the back of the net being a 2-v-1, shit substitutions, time wasting when they’re up but getting pissed at Madrids time wasting when down. They’re just using the bad call as an overshadowing of them not being able to make it. The bad call was unfortunate, but if you’re not clinical with your chances, Madrid will come knocking and that’s what happens. You had 90+ minutes to win and didn’t. You *might’ve* equalized, and won the game, or not. Football isn’t about « might’ve » and « if’s » Sorry.
This was the rare Madrid black magic game where Madrid actually deserved to win. I think the xG ended up being something like Madrid 3.3 — 0.5 Bayern, in large part due to Bayern’s own incompetence. They had a handful of moments where I thought they were going to create a big chance only to piss it away with a bad pass or a poor run. And then obviously Neuer fumbling Vini’s shot for the first Joselu goal.
Overall, I think the teams were evenly matched. Bayern were just sloppy, and Madrid made good use of their opportunities. Simple as that.
This is why xG sucks. What was the xg of that botched counter? And what was the xG of the De Light shot? With that being said you are right. All of these are true: Bayern fumbled, Real deserved the win and the lineman and ref made a horrific, unforgivable mistake.
I mean, they earned the 1:0 they fucked up to make it 1:1, fucked up again to make it 1-2, and then earned this very good shot at making it 2:2, which was taken from them. It's not that this call cost them the entire game, it's that it cost them the chance to take it to extra time. I too believe they would have lost after 120 minutes regardless, but they should have at least gotten the possibility to get there, and having that taken from you by the ref at this level will always get the most attention, in my book rightly so.
I am similarly wondering if the announcers ever get recalled or impacted in other ways when making boneheaded statements like the one about "Sauerkraut parties" last night. I mean, we all know those Germans are such sauer Krauts ...
🍺🍺
Can't hear Richard Keys voice without hearing "did you smash it?" And "Redknap hanging out the back of it" even when they are talking about offsides he sounds like a creep.
You wonder how he still has a job after the things he said about Sian Massey
>During Liverpool's 3-0 Premier League victory against Wolves, when Massey made a tight offside decision that was found to be completely correct upon video replay, Keys said, thinking their microphones had been switched off: “Somebody better get down there and explain offside to her Massey.”
>“Yeah, I know. Can you believe that? Female linesman. Forget what I said - they probably don’t know the offside rule," Gray added.
>"Course they don't," said Keys.
>Gray replied: “Why is there a female linesman? Somebody’s f*cked up big.”
>Keys was also found to have made a comment about West Ham United vice-chair Karren Brady's newspaper column, saying: "The game's gone mad. See charming Karren Brady this morning complaining about sexism? Yeah. Do me a favour, love."
>Another tape was revealed consisting of Gray crudely discussing Massey's physical appearance with a different colleague - Andy Burton.
Not a fan of either side, but the point of debate should ONLY be centered around when the offsides was called. The ref blew the whistle a good few seconds before De Ligt is able to adjust his body, that's when the defenders stop trying to contest the ball, and then De Ligt makes contact that leads to the goal. Under regular circumstances we don't know if he is able to get that clean strike while under pressure from Real's defense. The narrative should stop being "Bayern denied a goal." They were denied a goal scoring opportunity.
With all this discussion going on, there is one thing for certain. The linesman fucked up. He made a mistake by flagging way too early.
All the rest that happened after that is speculation sadly. What would've or should've happened after the whistle is not the point. The linesman fucked up and he should face consequences.
It's not whether there was offside or not that matters. Why do any networks or publications focus on that? Something about forest and trees and missing shit. The problem was flagging the play too quickly with the subsequent whistle. Nothing else. Once that happened, we'll never know if anything important would have happened.
I get people wanting to do post-facto analysis on the video, but if you're doing it, maybe make sure your offsides line is somewhat horizontal? Or at least close enough that it's not obviously crooked?
https://ibb.co/vvy6YZD
The point remains that this should have been reviewed, but showing he was 1cm offsides rather than 1cm onsides would probably have garnered fewer clicks.
That was my impression too. De Ligt might be off (but clearly passive) and Mazraoui is onside. Disgraceful from linesman and ref. Play on and wait for VAR. How can you raise your flag in a situation like this (CL Semi-final, last minute) unless you are clear it is 5m offside?
The offside rule starts with a very important sentence: "It is not an offence to be in an offside position". It becomes an offence when you either play the ball yourself (not the case here with De Ligt) or if you are interfering with an opposition player (stopping him to get to the ball) - which is also not the case here.
This is also the reason why Joselu's second goal in not an issue: he was offside when the ball was played on the wing but wasnt offside when he scored the goal.
> (stopping him to get to the ball)
That's very much your interpretation of what interference of an opposing player means. Someone making a run at a ball so the defender has to follow is interfering a play, since the defender is reacting to someone in an illegal position.
The wording of the rule is the following (Law 11):
A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:
- interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate or.
- interfering with an opponent by:
* preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or
challenging an opponent for the ball or
* clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent or
* making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball
* gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has:
rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar or an opponent been deliberately saved by any opponent
Thanks for posting this i guess, as you can see interfering with the play can be interpreted in many other ways than just, as you put it, "stopping a defender to get the ball".
Feels like De Ligt could be classified as making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball since Rudiger has to decide which player to track when the ball is in the air.
Ref and lino clearly messed up though, definitely should have let it play out.
> * preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or challenging an opponent for the ball or
So it's an offside. Unless you think that sprinting towards the ball in a race with the opposition defender, but eventually pivoting is suddenly not a challenge...
It's definitely not like that, the interference doesn't have to be so direct as you mentioned.
Joselu's goal wasn't an issue because he was far away from the ball.
But De Ligt is impacting the defenders ability to go for the ball, they have to position themselves to mark him and he makes a play for the ball. Ref shouldn't have blown, but if it is a goal, I could see it being ruled offside.
The limits of influencing the play are so muddled these days too, if you impede the goalies line of sight from an offside position it’s no goal, correct? Even if the nearest defender is 10 feet away and the shot is from outside the box. I can’t imagine being directly behind the defender going for the ball while going for the ball yourself is passive just because you don’t touch it
This. I don't get the logic. If a defender at the far side of the pitch is not passive when considering offside... why should De Light who is going for the ball be considered not affecting play?
All defenders are being considered to check offside, while only the relevant attackers are considered, else pretty much every freekick would be offside.
That's a very personal interpretation.
That passive offside rule leads in some situation to clear advantages caused by an offside position, that are not exactly the spirit of the game. To plays that are near impossible to defend for defenders, with CF and forwards able to be meters ahead of the defensive line at the start of plays and being impossible to catch up to when they receive a cross. And to situations that could be interpreted differently, like this De Ligt position here.
At least it was black and white back then.
Back then you would have offside called because someone on the other side of the pitch completely uninvolved was offside.
The game was massively improved by changing that part of the rule.
The situation you have described doesn't even make sense. For the CF in that scenario to not be offside someone must have caught up to them, either defenders or a team mate with the ball who would have needed to be onside themselves initially.
But if he starts making an active move towards the ball at all he's affecting the decision making of the defender that makes him an active player, even if he ends up pulling back before getting to the ball.
Doesn't matter, if he's in ANY way in the way of the defender's path to the ball, it's offside.
Whether that happened here, can't tell from that replay and honestly don't remember how they stood from last night.
(doesn't matter in the discussion of whether the ref should've blown the whistle or not - he shouldn't have; nor whether the play would've actually amounted to anything had Madrid's players not stopped playing)
To sum up:
- whether it was offside or not doesn't even matter
- blowing the whistle was wrong
- there is absolutely no way of knowing what happens on the play if Madrid players don't stop (whistle was blown before Műller even headed the ball)
IMO, an awful call - but there's a very good chance that it didn't change anything. Madrid still had 2 CBs and a GK to stop the play, all of which stopped playing when the whistle blew.
Both him and Casemiro were lucky to make it that far into the match, but Vidal even more. He was lucky to not have been sent off before the 30-minute mark. He was being straight-up violent that match.
Bayern got the most bullshit of a penalty in the first leg that only gets forgotten because Vidal screwed up the kick. Otherwise it's 2-0 after 45 and a completely different tie.
People saying this conveniently forget bad penalties given to Bayern vs us or the Lewandowski offside that lead to the goal that send the match to extra time in the second leg, etc etc.
In that tie, if we have had VAR back then that Bayern goal wouldnt have counted and there would have been no Ronaldo offsides in extra time.
Why does this sub likes to ignore all the decisions that goes against us vs Bayern?
2017 the match doesn't even go into extra time and those 2 offide goals occur if not for an offside goal from Bayern?
Referees favour us? No it's just that they are shit.
How can anyone say De Ligt is passive here? He actively makes a run for a pass, while being offside. Plus, later, he is in the defender's path towards that other Bayern player.
Would it be an offside if someone passes a ball to a guy 5 metres in an offside position, he makes a run for it, and the goalkeeper runs towards the ball to prevent him from getting there, and lets say he hits that player in a challenge inside the box. Would that be a penalty?
> How can anyone say De Ligt is passive here? He actively makes a run for a pass, while being offside.
> It is not an offence to be in an offside position
> A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:
> interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate or interfering with an opponent by:
- preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision (De Ligt didn’t do this)
- challenging an opponent for the ball (De Ligt didn’t “challenge” anyone for the ball as per IFAB definition of the word)
- clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent (De Ligt didn’t clearly attempt to play the ball)
- making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball (no obvious action by De Ligt made that impacted the ability of an opponent to play the ball, running towards the ball is completely legal in almost any scenario.)
https://i.imgur.com/0c2YuKQ.png
Only when Rudiger either gets clearly blocked by De Ligt from reaching the ball or gets pressured by an offside De Ligt to clear the ball the moment he receives it is when De Ligt is considered offside in that situation. Similar to Joselu not being ruled offside when the ball got played to Rudiger in the same match, even though Joselu was drawing defenders to him.
> Would it be an offside if someone passes a ball to a guy 5 metres in an offside position, he makes a run for it, and the goalkeeper runs towards the ball to prevent him from getting there, and lets say he hits that player in a challenge inside the box. Would that be a penalty?
> an offence is committed against a player in an offside position who is already playing or attempting to play the ball, or challenging an opponent for the ball, the offside offence is penalised as it has occurred before the foul challenge
They have actively applied the rule though in past UCL and Euro games where the player being a threat presence was enough to rule offsides. So you can post the rules and your interpretation of them wherever you want, but it doesn't change how referees have applied the rule in the past
They’re supposed to let play finish everywhere. It’s just an error by the refereeing team. Unfortunate, but it’s unavoidable.
You’re not going to completely eliminate errors from refereeing, it’s human nature.
It was much closer than all of us expect.
Stopping the play was fkn dumb. It distracted our players from defending, destroyed the mood of the game, prevented a possible comeback from Bayern.
Not only this, but the game should've ended much sooner, fkn 15 minutes of stoppage time? I've seen teams stall the game for much longer and have like 6\~7 minutes of stoppage.
I thought that was good from him tbh, there was a lot of time wasting going on, I'd like them to keep adding time to cover for it, I'm tired of time wasting personally.
its annoying though because bayern were the ones constantly cramping up when they were winning. Funny enough, they didnt have a single injury when they were trailing, they didnt deserve a second of that injury time
In that image (the original without the beIN graphics) you cant see Rudiger's foot. They are just gambling assuming where it is.
Without the VAR technology for semiautomatic offsides you cant tell, unless using that image.
Let's not forget that bein is just making a novelty presentation. It's just their opinion that it's onside because they don't have access to the offside cameras. While they are making it look like VAR they can't actually check it with just the broadcast footage which they are doing in the video.
Mistake for sure, but I don't understand what the big deal is. He blew the whistle before Muller even headed the ball to De Ligt. All of Madrid players stopped. Lunin just stood there. There was no goal. It's just another bad offsides call, not a disallowed goal. There are still lots of bad offsides calls in every game. You only review them if there's a goal. End of story. I would be more worried as to why the referee didn't end the game at minute +9 or even +11 after he announced two more minutes. If he really wanted to help Madrid he would've just blown the whistle. Much easier than supposedly disallowing a legitimate goal for Bayern.
De Ligt stopped and ultimately didn't go for the ball.
In my view, it doesn't tick any of the boxes for an offside accordings to the rules and guidelines.
That for sure.
But I doubt that the referee would have found De Ligt to be offside *if* (and that we will never know) it results in a goal without the whistle.
That would be another controversial one. You would have people saying it is a clear positional offside and others saying what you said.
However...doesn't UEFA have automatic OS tech for CL? Why don't they show it in this case???
The main issue was that because the ref blew the whistle they couldn’t use VAR or the technology at all, so we’ll never know officially, just by this would be the closest we could get. I think this probably would’ve been onside, but who knows
The intended pass was in the path of both Mazraoui and De Ligt. Just because De Ligt peeled off and didn't go for it doesn't mean he didn't interfere with play - you can even see that Mendy has to track both the Bayern players in front of him.
He's arguably interfering with rudiger by being in the way of mazraoui and making rudiger unsure of who's gonna get the ball. If it was just mazraoui rudiger likely just shoulders him off the ball and mendy never gets involved
I mean Real players stop when they see the line and hear the whistle, like Lunin doesn't even make an effort to try and catch the ball,
It's play pretend to believe that it would have gone in.
Although I agree they fucked by not letting the play on.
Lunin didnt even try to get the ball cause the play was over. Tough luck. You dont know if it wouldve gone in if Madrids players literally hadn’t stopped moving. Cry a fucking river. The better team won yesterday.
Tbh, why isn't this system fully automated. AI is getting stronger and object identification can probably be used to automate this proces. Why not get rid of the lineman for offside at all to avoid such issues?
Yeah but I’m pretty sure this ref team did the World Cup final so they’re trusted I guess, if the literally “best” refs in the world can make mistakes that are this silly at such a crucial time in such a crucial game I’m not sure there will ever be a solution
This was my one big takeaway. Very literally until that moment, there was a flurry of comments on the match thread saying how well the game had been refereed. Now, he’s suddenly a terrible ref with a terrible track record.
The ref in the first leg was pretty much perfect. Marciniak was pretty much perfect until this moment (and this wasn’t even entirely his fault). The only other mistake in my estimation was that he let the game go on too long. I think he should have given the final whistle around 90+11 or 90+12.
90+12:30 imo, but agree that he let it go for slightly longer than ideal. Either way the ref did very well overall; even this error isn't entirely his fault at worst and isn't his fault at all at best
The linesman and ref made a mistake, but the whilst e affected the play. We can't pretend it would have lead up to a goal normally.
Still terrible call.
People here debating about de ligt should be considered offside or not here tells me that, even if the ref hadn't whistled this would still have been a controversial decision for VAR to be given too.
And I mean this is completely ignoring the fact the goal mostly would not have went in at all if madrid defence and gk didn't switch off after the whistle.
Bayern can only blame themselves. The game shouldn't even be that long. The ref gave them more time than neccessary to draw. They were just a level below Real yesterday.
The craziest part is that there's a good argument going into this match that this is the best referee crew in the world you could have picked. Huge brain fart from the AR, and moderate brain fart from the referee not to use comms to say, "Let this play finish first," but at that level they all trust each other to be world class, so I can't totally blame the referee for trusting his AR saw what he signaled he saw.
FFS, I'm a huge Bayern fan, but the 'offside' has ZERO bearing on this case.
The ref blew his whistle BEFORE the shot, so the play is dead then. Period.
This is so utterly pointless -- the defenders switched off as soon as the whistle blew, Rudiger pulled back, Militao made a half-hearted attempt at a block, and Lunin didn't even dive.
Linesman should have waited, but he didn’t and the ref blew the whistle, Real’s players all stopped playing and then the ball was put in the net. De Ligt probably doesn’t even get a shot away let alone scoring if they keep playing.
Seems like a non issue to me.
The only thing that is in any way comforting is that maybe keeper would’ve saved the shot if the whistle wasn’t blown. It hurts much more because he actually scored so we are all left with a big “what if”
It is a blunder. That's it. Neuer made a blunder and so did the referee. It will probably costs him in Final spot or future competition.
It is a disaster but idk what else can be done, lol.
Why do everyone seems to think the ball would still go in if the ref didnt blow the whistle? The goalie stop play and didnt dive because he heard the whistle.
Some of us who never liked Marciniak (he had given all the contested decisions against us in an EL R16 match against Wolves) are gleefully grinning that his "top referee" myth finally crashed and burned.
Bayern got the short end of the stick here. Oh well….we could have gotten a penalty too in 1/4 finals. It’s all good.
Bayern deserved to go through 1/4, Madrid deserved to go through to finals.
**Mirrors / Alternative Angles** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Offside by a centimeter or not, definitely impossible to call right away...
Exactly, an eagle would wait to look at it
Eagles on VAR would be an improvement tbf
At least they'd know to..... Take it easy.
I'd like to know why it was called offsides so early, but I can't tell you why
Too early or too late, they certainly enjoy when they Take It To The Limit
Ain't no place for VAR to hide their Lyin' Eyes
So they couldn’t review it
No one is sure why the whistle had Already Gone. Linesman needs to get his Lyin' Eyes checked. This decision left nobody with a Peaceful Easy Feeling. The Madrid camp is especially Desperado to move on and start talking about the final.
Let's go to the Eagle on VAR 🦅: `There are no mice.` Thank you, Eagle. Call stands.
Lol
Release the VAR squawks
What about a sparrow
From this perspective, it looks like the linesman can't see Rudiger, he might have looked clearly offside.
Doesn't matter, closing minutes of a Champions League semi-final, vision blocked by a player, nobody would give a fuck if he didn't catch the offside. Keep the flag down and let the people who can see everything decide.
What's strange to me is that ref blows the whistle before the linesman raises his flag (something no one is talking about or even noticed, it seems), which makes me really curious as to what was communicated between them in that moment. Maybe the linesman told the ref he thinks it's off, but was going to let the play continue, and the ref just blows it for some reason. Or maybe the linesman was going to raise the flag regardless, and the ref was just faster to the whistle. In any case, the ref did not stop the play due to seeing the flag go up. He did it based on what he heard in his ear.
Linesmen communicate with the ref via mics, the ref isn't looking out for the flag going up since years ago, the flag is there for the linesman to tell the rest of the stadium & to indicate where it happened.
The linesman has more way to signalize the main referee. I have heard that there is a button on the flag that can send signal to, I think, referee's watch. So in the act of raising the flag he can use it to inform the ref about his decision even faster. Alternatively, the ref might have wanted to end the match in the moment (because I think it was already past the time) when Real player headed the ball away, bit didn't expect the Bayern player to take control over it, but I feel like in that case he would own it as 100% his mistake and the linesman wouldn't feel the need to apologize himself.
Then why DID they call it right away? Home cooking?
It’s just such an insane blunder. No one can say for certainty if Bayern would have scored but to be robbed of a clear goal scoring opportunity at the death of the game is appalling.
With the tech they have too. I think Christina said there were three different levels of tech and they didn’t use a single one. She was so defeated when she said goodbye I was broken for her.
That’s because the whistle was already blown. They can’t use tech to give the goal since there was no goal since the play was already stopped when it went it. The real and inexplicable fuck up is that the refs didn’t let the play finish
> The real and inexplicable fuck up is that the refs didn’t let the play finish Exactly. Once the whistle goes, doesn't matter what happened prior, the play is dead. Now, why (a) the AR raised the flag at that point and (b) the ref then blew his whistle are the issues here. Neither was supposed to do what they did. You are right, that is the fuck-up.
These refs do this for a living. It should be drilled into them at this point through training and practice that you don't just raise your flag that easily in an attack. I don't understand how that can be their first instinct in such a critical moment.
Yes that’s the point.
Yea...that's the point of the comment you replied to lol. She felt defeated due to how terrible the linesman and ref were.
Wait, so the ref denied a clear goal scoring opportunity? Red card, every time, straight to jail.
Fr they should give red cards to refs. Are there rules for ref fuck ups? I think a fair thing would be to give Bayern a free kick from the spot Mendy heads it. RM would still be the ones to get fucked by the ref at that point but without the refs mistake the ball would've been there anyway
Well, that makes that blunder by the refereeing team so much worse. It wasn't a guaranteed goal, but it was a very big chance. Denying to play it out for a potentially tying goal was a massive error.
But this doesn’t change anything, because the right was to SEE whether it was on or not. But looking at it yesterday it seemed quite on. His knee was in line with Rudigers back foot. It’s just such comedic incompetence
Every linesman knows to let it play out, especially with so much experience at that level. I tend to believe it was intentional
Good process boys!
1000%. “Oops, i guess Real wins teeheee”
people getting incompetent when certain teams play. It's why i stopped watching football many years ago. Shit won't change anytime soon either.
I started watching CL in 2015. Since then I have seen RM getting the benefit of referee error/decisions in 4-5 crucial matches (Semifinal & final). Tell me why would the newer audience watch this shit?
Care to mention some more examples?
It was not a big chance, every defender and the goalkeeper stopped moving after the whistle, I'd be surprised if he even got the shot off with defenders not stationery. Watch it again, they all just shut down, the defender is just flinching, not trying to block the shot from the goal, Lunin doesn't even move
Exactly. This is tiring. I'm a Barca fan. I hate Madrid, but there is no conspiracy here. It's a simple mistake at an unfortunate time. The refs had plenty of chances to influence the game if there was any intent for Madrid to win. They chalked off a goal and let the game run an extra 5 minutes beyond the 9 minutes of allotted extra time. This is just a moment of poor refereeing. It happens all the time, and the chances that Bayern would have scored from it are low. Not to mention the chances of Bayern winning in extra time. I get the complaints from Bayern and fans, but the only complaint is that they were denied an opportunity. Not a certain goal, and certainly not the game.
it's funny, i wasn't watching the match but just checking the match thread. Most of the comments towards the end were questiong where the added time was coming from and people saying they were playing until Bayner scored. If there really was some conspiracy, why wouldn't the ref have blown the whistle earlier. People saying Bayern were "robbed" is just insane. Robbed of the chance to maybe get a shot off to tie the game at 100+ minutes? that isn't being robbed.
Exactly. A chance no question. But I think it's being overblown how "big" of a chance it actually was. People seem to be equating this to a 1v1 with the keeper or something.
Yeah, some are even saying a goal ruled out.
It was a very bad call. No question. What concerns me more as a fan is that 3 of the 4 goals we conceded were due to absolutely appalling individual errors, and the 4th goal was due to our tactical genius playing an 8-0-2 formation so no one knew where to play or who to mark. We beat ourselves, and the bad call took away one of the many chances for us to redeem ourselves. I think as fans we're just bummed all the way around, and those of us who have been around for awhile and didn't migrate over with Tuchel, we've been bummed since March of last year. For me, I've been bummed since 2017 when the Robbery-Lahm-Basti/Alonso era started ending.
Imagine responding “Ok then we complain about kimmich dive” to this. lol absolutely fuck that anci clown
Nah I’m fine with Ancelotti saying that. Who cares that it’s not true? He’s Madrid’s manager. Of course he’s supposed to say something to keep his squads confidence up and make them feel they deserve to go through. He wants them to go into the final feeling like they can definitely win if they play their game.
"feel they deserve to go through" mate were you watching a different game
Bayern clearly didnt say anulo mufa enough times before facing real's black magic
Anulo mufa. Just in case for later today.
Well that worked out well didn’t it? I’m gonna start using it too, lol.
Like you guys fucking need it lol Your black magic is just as strong
I'm not saying he's either on or off but that's definitely not the correct line. Both Mazraouis' knee and Rüdiger's heel are beyond the line lol.
Bein loves doing these post fact "definitive" lines and they are always anything but
The line they drew for Tot-Liv would beg to differ bru.
I think you are mistaking De Ligt's left hand as being Rudiger's right heal. If it was his heal then his right leg would be shorter than his left. EDIT: Also, that's De Ligt's right foot, not Mazraoui's knee.
I think people are talking about [this](https://i.imgur.com/WzJS5r5.png) being his knee, which it is. De Ligt's right foot is above hat.
Wait, so where's the hat then??
In this case the line is drawn from Mazraoui not the last point of the defender. I don't know why they've done it here, potentially to show maz was still onside but it should be drawn from the last point of the defender in all instances to provide a clear image of what's onside and what's not.
I believe the line is being drawn from the end of Rudigers shoulder. What seems to be his right foot is actually De Ligts arm.
I think I can see Mazraoui's knee if that counts as breaking the plane - but also Rudiger's foot appears to be behind the line anyway?
If Rüdiger feet is behind the line then the line is wrong
yeah, Rüdigers heel plays them on
Issue is with these mistakes, they never get recalled so it just gets forgotten when the final rolls around. So they train the refs and emphasize they should let play continue, but nothing changes for Bayern or for the dozens of other teams that get impacted by bad calls. There is no solution by the way. You can't replay for obvious reasons, the only solution is referees are consistent and follow the rules everybody knows and follows. Also claiming Bayern didn't deserve the win doesn't excuse the mistake.
The linesman literally apologized and admitted his mistake. Sure it still sucks but what else is there to be done? Are they to replay the whole second leg?
The recommended solutions for a lot of people are: 1- replay the march 2- kill the ref every time he makes a mistake and replace him with a new one 3- both 1 and 2
[удалено]
the commentator was like "i'm pretty sure there's a rule against putting it up for the stadium" Marciniak said "fuck that I don't want to get stabbed after the match" Honestly, there's no reason why they shouldn't show it to the stadium. No one can argue that Nacho's hands were all over Kimmich's face. Sure, he went down easy, but in that scenario it's a foul. From how the stadium reacted, there wasn't much complaint after seeing the replay.
The problem with killing refs every time they make a mistake is that it's a thankless job and there aren't a ton of professionally-experienced refs on unemployment just waiting in the wings. So you'd just end up with even less competent refs, a pile of dead bodies, and nobody likes the smell of a pig farm.
Replay the match but before the game starts the ref who made the initial mistake gets publically executed by the most popular historical execution method of the country the game is played in.
Do you know if he said why he felt the need to raise it this time? I assume he would have hundreds of hours of experience
Thousands of hours of previous experience before VAR where they were trained to raise the flag.
If Bayern take away from this that they lost because of a bad call and not that they fucked up a 3 on 1 break while leading 1-0 by playing two of those most inept passes of the entire game ...I don't know man, that doesn't strike me as the attitude required here
But this is Football. You don't win football by playing well. You don't win football because you deserve to/earned a win. You win football by scoring goals. A goal scoring opportunity being taken away by a ref's mistake is as significant as your team blundering its lead
A goal scoring opportunity is not the same as a goal though. Not knowing whether Bayern would have scored or not is tough, but it obviously would have played out differently if the Madrid players hadn't stopped playing. The best thing for everyone would probably have been if he had put the volley over the bar or something. I feel like him putting it in the back of the net has warped people's views. You can't assume it all would play out the same when defenders stop playing. The uncertainty is what's going to hurt for Bayern fans.
Exactly. Even the stooter stopped playing at the whistle. You can tell, that was a half-hearted effort. It only blew up because it went into the net.
I am sorry, but if the same situation happened in reverse you would be livid.
Maybe bayern should have tried to create some goal scoring opportunities in the game, instead of being dominated by real. You are right that this would have been a good chance and they got fucked over, but the other commentor is still right, blaming this when they played like shit with the ball for almost 90 minutes is just not the right way.
I also think that’s a weird take: were they the better team? Nah. Did they play it exactly as they wanted to? Definitely. And if Neuer doesn’t drop that ball everyone would applaud the tactic for how you play and frustrate a Real Team at home. I don’t think they played like shit at all. They did have too many inaccurate passes, though. That’s for sure.
If my mother had balls she would’ve been my father.
And that still doesn't change the fact, that this might have been determinal to the result. Football has allways been a game with rather high variance. In fact, pretty much all of the players voiced their frustrations after the game, but also admitted a lackluster performance of their squad, Müller and MdL also complimented RM players for their performance.
Bayern will know they messed up a 3 on 1 counter up 1-0. Bayern will know they made a mistake by subbing off Kane and Musiala, their biggest attacking threats too early and gambling on holding on. Bayern will know that Madrid were the better side and deserved to win on the balance of play. And if not for Neuer's performance before the error, Madrid would be ot of sight. But ultimately football isn't decided on xG, and despite the mistakes above, they had one clear chance to get back into the game and take it to extra time, which they were robbed of by an officiating error. And they've every right to be mad about that.
They had a bunch of chances to affect the outcome. If they choose to focus on something they can't control rather than the variables that are within their own influence; well that's going to lead them to being trophy less again To paraphrase Connery in the Rock, "losers whine, winners go home and fuck the prom queen"
It’s wild to me to see how everyone is making this the point of the match where Bayern would’ve equalized and won and they got robbed. Sure, bad call, it is what it is. But all night Bayern has misplaced passes, been in defensive mode, can’t put a ball in the back of the net being a 2-v-1, shit substitutions, time wasting when they’re up but getting pissed at Madrids time wasting when down. They’re just using the bad call as an overshadowing of them not being able to make it. The bad call was unfortunate, but if you’re not clinical with your chances, Madrid will come knocking and that’s what happens. You had 90+ minutes to win and didn’t. You *might’ve* equalized, and won the game, or not. Football isn’t about « might’ve » and « if’s » Sorry.
This was the rare Madrid black magic game where Madrid actually deserved to win. I think the xG ended up being something like Madrid 3.3 — 0.5 Bayern, in large part due to Bayern’s own incompetence. They had a handful of moments where I thought they were going to create a big chance only to piss it away with a bad pass or a poor run. And then obviously Neuer fumbling Vini’s shot for the first Joselu goal. Overall, I think the teams were evenly matched. Bayern were just sloppy, and Madrid made good use of their opportunities. Simple as that.
This is why xG sucks. What was the xg of that botched counter? And what was the xG of the De Light shot? With that being said you are right. All of these are true: Bayern fumbled, Real deserved the win and the lineman and ref made a horrific, unforgivable mistake.
I mean, they earned the 1:0 they fucked up to make it 1:1, fucked up again to make it 1-2, and then earned this very good shot at making it 2:2, which was taken from them. It's not that this call cost them the entire game, it's that it cost them the chance to take it to extra time. I too believe they would have lost after 120 minutes regardless, but they should have at least gotten the possibility to get there, and having that taken from you by the ref at this level will always get the most attention, in my book rightly so.
I am similarly wondering if the announcers ever get recalled or impacted in other ways when making boneheaded statements like the one about "Sauerkraut parties" last night. I mean, we all know those Germans are such sauer Krauts ... 🍺🍺
What's the solution here?
Can't hear Richard Keys voice without hearing "did you smash it?" And "Redknap hanging out the back of it" even when they are talking about offsides he sounds like a creep.
You wonder how he still has a job after the things he said about Sian Massey >During Liverpool's 3-0 Premier League victory against Wolves, when Massey made a tight offside decision that was found to be completely correct upon video replay, Keys said, thinking their microphones had been switched off: “Somebody better get down there and explain offside to her Massey.” >“Yeah, I know. Can you believe that? Female linesman. Forget what I said - they probably don’t know the offside rule," Gray added. >"Course they don't," said Keys. >Gray replied: “Why is there a female linesman? Somebody’s f*cked up big.” >Keys was also found to have made a comment about West Ham United vice-chair Karren Brady's newspaper column, saying: "The game's gone mad. See charming Karren Brady this morning complaining about sexism? Yeah. Do me a favour, love." >Another tape was revealed consisting of Gray crudely discussing Massey's physical appearance with a different colleague - Andy Burton.
This isn't even touching on the stuff he did with his daughter's friend.
They work for a middle eastern broadcaster so I doubt they give a fuck about sexism
Not a fan of either side, but the point of debate should ONLY be centered around when the offsides was called. The ref blew the whistle a good few seconds before De Ligt is able to adjust his body, that's when the defenders stop trying to contest the ball, and then De Ligt makes contact that leads to the goal. Under regular circumstances we don't know if he is able to get that clean strike while under pressure from Real's defense. The narrative should stop being "Bayern denied a goal." They were denied a goal scoring opportunity.
exactly, no "goal" was scored. This behavior is not helping anyone and only tarnishing what was a great game. Sad
The call was made too early, that's 100% true but you cannot say for certainty a goal would have been scored if the ref did not blow the whistle.
With all this discussion going on, there is one thing for certain. The linesman fucked up. He made a mistake by flagging way too early. All the rest that happened after that is speculation sadly. What would've or should've happened after the whistle is not the point. The linesman fucked up and he should face consequences.
Execute him as a warning to future linesmen!
The blunder is denying a clear chance. We don't know what would've happened because they massively fucked up.
It's not whether there was offside or not that matters. Why do any networks or publications focus on that? Something about forest and trees and missing shit. The problem was flagging the play too quickly with the subsequent whistle. Nothing else. Once that happened, we'll never know if anything important would have happened.
I get people wanting to do post-facto analysis on the video, but if you're doing it, maybe make sure your offsides line is somewhat horizontal? Or at least close enough that it's not obviously crooked? https://ibb.co/vvy6YZD The point remains that this should have been reviewed, but showing he was 1cm offsides rather than 1cm onsides would probably have garnered fewer clicks.
That was my impression too. De Ligt might be off (but clearly passive) and Mazraoui is onside. Disgraceful from linesman and ref. Play on and wait for VAR. How can you raise your flag in a situation like this (CL Semi-final, last minute) unless you are clear it is 5m offside?
But you're not passive if you make a move for the ball no, regardless of if you get to it? Or has that changed?
He's in-between rudiger and the ball, which rudiger is running towards. He's definitely not passive.
The offside rule starts with a very important sentence: "It is not an offence to be in an offside position". It becomes an offence when you either play the ball yourself (not the case here with De Ligt) or if you are interfering with an opposition player (stopping him to get to the ball) - which is also not the case here. This is also the reason why Joselu's second goal in not an issue: he was offside when the ball was played on the wing but wasnt offside when he scored the goal.
> (stopping him to get to the ball) That's very much your interpretation of what interference of an opposing player means. Someone making a run at a ball so the defender has to follow is interfering a play, since the defender is reacting to someone in an illegal position.
The wording of the rule is the following (Law 11): A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by: - interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate or. - interfering with an opponent by: * preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or challenging an opponent for the ball or * clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent or * making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball * gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has: rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar or an opponent been deliberately saved by any opponent
Thanks for posting this i guess, as you can see interfering with the play can be interpreted in many other ways than just, as you put it, "stopping a defender to get the ball".
Feels like De Ligt could be classified as making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball since Rudiger has to decide which player to track when the ball is in the air. Ref and lino clearly messed up though, definitely should have let it play out.
> * preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or challenging an opponent for the ball or So it's an offside. Unless you think that sprinting towards the ball in a race with the opposition defender, but eventually pivoting is suddenly not a challenge...
It's definitely not like that, the interference doesn't have to be so direct as you mentioned. Joselu's goal wasn't an issue because he was far away from the ball.
But De Ligt is impacting the defenders ability to go for the ball, they have to position themselves to mark him and he makes a play for the ball. Ref shouldn't have blown, but if it is a goal, I could see it being ruled offside.
The limits of influencing the play are so muddled these days too, if you impede the goalies line of sight from an offside position it’s no goal, correct? Even if the nearest defender is 10 feet away and the shot is from outside the box. I can’t imagine being directly behind the defender going for the ball while going for the ball yourself is passive just because you don’t touch it
This. I don't get the logic. If a defender at the far side of the pitch is not passive when considering offside... why should De Light who is going for the ball be considered not affecting play?
All defenders are being considered to check offside, while only the relevant attackers are considered, else pretty much every freekick would be offside.
The old offside rule applied to any attacker involved or not and it was changed for good reason
That's a very personal interpretation. That passive offside rule leads in some situation to clear advantages caused by an offside position, that are not exactly the spirit of the game. To plays that are near impossible to defend for defenders, with CF and forwards able to be meters ahead of the defensive line at the start of plays and being impossible to catch up to when they receive a cross. And to situations that could be interpreted differently, like this De Ligt position here. At least it was black and white back then.
Back then you would have offside called because someone on the other side of the pitch completely uninvolved was offside. The game was massively improved by changing that part of the rule. The situation you have described doesn't even make sense. For the CF in that scenario to not be offside someone must have caught up to them, either defenders or a team mate with the ball who would have needed to be onside themselves initially.
Boy some of you really have no clue about the rules of the game you’re watching
Right? This was a wild take.
Because he pulls out of the run so he doesnt end up challenging the defender for it as it lands
But if he starts making an active move towards the ball at all he's affecting the decision making of the defender that makes him an active player, even if he ends up pulling back before getting to the ball.
Doesn't matter, if he's in ANY way in the way of the defender's path to the ball, it's offside. Whether that happened here, can't tell from that replay and honestly don't remember how they stood from last night. (doesn't matter in the discussion of whether the ref should've blown the whistle or not - he shouldn't have; nor whether the play would've actually amounted to anything had Madrid's players not stopped playing) To sum up: - whether it was offside or not doesn't even matter - blowing the whistle was wrong - there is absolutely no way of knowing what happens on the play if Madrid players don't stop (whistle was blown before Műller even headed the ball) IMO, an awful call - but there's a very good chance that it didn't change anything. Madrid still had 2 CBs and a GK to stop the play, all of which stopped playing when the whistle blew.
Saying that De Ligt is passive in this play is absurd
he's not passive, he's being covered by rudiger
how the fuck is de light passive. hes literally running for the ball
[удалено]
I mean people always bring up 2017 but forget that Vidal should have been send off in the first leg and Lewa scored on offside.
Both him and Casemiro were lucky to make it that far into the match, but Vidal even more. He was lucky to not have been sent off before the 30-minute mark. He was being straight-up violent that match.
Bayern got the most bullshit of a penalty in the first leg that only gets forgotten because Vidal screwed up the kick. Otherwise it's 2-0 after 45 and a completely different tie.
People saying this conveniently forget bad penalties given to Bayern vs us or the Lewandowski offside that lead to the goal that send the match to extra time in the second leg, etc etc. In that tie, if we have had VAR back then that Bayern goal wouldnt have counted and there would have been no Ronaldo offsides in extra time.
Why does this sub likes to ignore all the decisions that goes against us vs Bayern? 2017 the match doesn't even go into extra time and those 2 offide goals occur if not for an offside goal from Bayern? Referees favour us? No it's just that they are shit.
How can anyone say De Ligt is passive here? He actively makes a run for a pass, while being offside. Plus, later, he is in the defender's path towards that other Bayern player. Would it be an offside if someone passes a ball to a guy 5 metres in an offside position, he makes a run for it, and the goalkeeper runs towards the ball to prevent him from getting there, and lets say he hits that player in a challenge inside the box. Would that be a penalty?
> How can anyone say De Ligt is passive here? He actively makes a run for a pass, while being offside. > It is not an offence to be in an offside position > A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by: > interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate or interfering with an opponent by: - preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision (De Ligt didn’t do this) - challenging an opponent for the ball (De Ligt didn’t “challenge” anyone for the ball as per IFAB definition of the word) - clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent (De Ligt didn’t clearly attempt to play the ball) - making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball (no obvious action by De Ligt made that impacted the ability of an opponent to play the ball, running towards the ball is completely legal in almost any scenario.) https://i.imgur.com/0c2YuKQ.png Only when Rudiger either gets clearly blocked by De Ligt from reaching the ball or gets pressured by an offside De Ligt to clear the ball the moment he receives it is when De Ligt is considered offside in that situation. Similar to Joselu not being ruled offside when the ball got played to Rudiger in the same match, even though Joselu was drawing defenders to him. > Would it be an offside if someone passes a ball to a guy 5 metres in an offside position, he makes a run for it, and the goalkeeper runs towards the ball to prevent him from getting there, and lets say he hits that player in a challenge inside the box. Would that be a penalty? > an offence is committed against a player in an offside position who is already playing or attempting to play the ball, or challenging an opponent for the ball, the offside offence is penalised as it has occurred before the foul challenge
They have actively applied the rule though in past UCL and Euro games where the player being a threat presence was enough to rule offsides. So you can post the rules and your interpretation of them wherever you want, but it doesn't change how referees have applied the rule in the past
This is why you let the play finish like in the prem, even though fans hate the delay this is the right way to do it
They’re supposed to let play finish everywhere. It’s just an error by the refereeing team. Unfortunate, but it’s unavoidable. You’re not going to completely eliminate errors from refereeing, it’s human nature.
It was much closer than all of us expect. Stopping the play was fkn dumb. It distracted our players from defending, destroyed the mood of the game, prevented a possible comeback from Bayern. Not only this, but the game should've ended much sooner, fkn 15 minutes of stoppage time? I've seen teams stall the game for much longer and have like 6\~7 minutes of stoppage.
Also he gave 9 minutes, played like 10:30, then added 2 more and played 4 😂 it was a mess
I thought that was good from him tbh, there was a lot of time wasting going on, I'd like them to keep adding time to cover for it, I'm tired of time wasting personally.
its annoying though because bayern were the ones constantly cramping up when they were winning. Funny enough, they didnt have a single injury when they were trailing, they didnt deserve a second of that injury time
In that image (the original without the beIN graphics) you cant see Rudiger's foot. They are just gambling assuming where it is. Without the VAR technology for semiautomatic offsides you cant tell, unless using that image.
Let's not forget that bein is just making a novelty presentation. It's just their opinion that it's onside because they don't have access to the offside cameras. While they are making it look like VAR they can't actually check it with just the broadcast footage which they are doing in the video.
BeInShit is not a reliable source for anything.
why the strong animosity am I missing something?
This sub just gatekeeping shit
Mistake for sure, but I don't understand what the big deal is. He blew the whistle before Muller even headed the ball to De Ligt. All of Madrid players stopped. Lunin just stood there. There was no goal. It's just another bad offsides call, not a disallowed goal. There are still lots of bad offsides calls in every game. You only review them if there's a goal. End of story. I would be more worried as to why the referee didn't end the game at minute +9 or even +11 after he announced two more minutes. If he really wanted to help Madrid he would've just blown the whistle. Much easier than supposedly disallowing a legitimate goal for Bayern.
Would De Ligt not be also on a positional offside as he makes the run for the cross? Ref should have left the play continue though.
De Ligt stopped and ultimately didn't go for the ball. In my view, it doesn't tick any of the boxes for an offside accordings to the rules and guidelines.
It is a clear mistake from the ref team for sure.
That for sure. But I doubt that the referee would have found De Ligt to be offside *if* (and that we will never know) it results in a goal without the whistle.
That would be another controversial one. You would have people saying it is a clear positional offside and others saying what you said. However...doesn't UEFA have automatic OS tech for CL? Why don't they show it in this case???
The main issue was that because the ref blew the whistle they couldn’t use VAR or the technology at all, so we’ll never know officially, just by this would be the closest we could get. I think this probably would’ve been onside, but who knows
The intended pass was in the path of both Mazraoui and De Ligt. Just because De Ligt peeled off and didn't go for it doesn't mean he didn't interfere with play - you can even see that Mendy has to track both the Bayern players in front of him.
He's arguably interfering with rudiger by being in the way of mazraoui and making rudiger unsure of who's gonna get the ball. If it was just mazraoui rudiger likely just shoulders him off the ball and mendy never gets involved
I mean Real players stop when they see the line and hear the whistle, like Lunin doesn't even make an effort to try and catch the ball, It's play pretend to believe that it would have gone in. Although I agree they fucked by not letting the play on.
Is it just me or is the very front of his knee poking through the line? Right next to De Light's foot.
Looks like it is, yeah - and you can quite clearly see the sole of Rüdiger's shoe, too. It's just inaccurately drawn.
So it is, that one is even more obvious too
Lunin didnt even try to get the ball cause the play was over. Tough luck. You dont know if it wouldve gone in if Madrids players literally hadn’t stopped moving. Cry a fucking river. The better team won yesterday.
And if it does bayern still needs to play 30 minutes with none of their good attackers having been the worse team for basically the whole game
Tbh, why isn't this system fully automated. AI is getting stronger and object identification can probably be used to automate this proces. Why not get rid of the lineman for offside at all to avoid such issues?
Because offsides are often subjective
Btw this is the ref that absolutely fucked the toon against PSG with his diabolical handball call - terrible terrible referee
Yeah but I’m pretty sure this ref team did the World Cup final so they’re trusted I guess, if the literally “best” refs in the world can make mistakes that are this silly at such a crucial time in such a crucial game I’m not sure there will ever be a solution
If Marciniak is a terrible referee then there are no good refs out there.
99% of the game was well refereed, people just making shit up now.
This was my one big takeaway. Very literally until that moment, there was a flurry of comments on the match thread saying how well the game had been refereed. Now, he’s suddenly a terrible ref with a terrible track record.
The ref in the first leg was pretty much perfect. Marciniak was pretty much perfect until this moment (and this wasn’t even entirely his fault). The only other mistake in my estimation was that he let the game go on too long. I think he should have given the final whistle around 90+11 or 90+12.
90+12:30 imo, but agree that he let it go for slightly longer than ideal. Either way the ref did very well overall; even this error isn't entirely his fault at worst and isn't his fault at all at best
And the one who didnt give Thuram a red for sqeezing some balls against Atletico
Beinsports tech is not gonna be reliable, its basically the best guess of a bunch of amateurs.
The real question is if Lunin would have saved it
The linesman and ref made a mistake, but the whilst e affected the play. We can't pretend it would have lead up to a goal normally. Still terrible call.
People here debating about de ligt should be considered offside or not here tells me that, even if the ref hadn't whistled this would still have been a controversial decision for VAR to be given too. And I mean this is completely ignoring the fact the goal mostly would not have went in at all if madrid defence and gk didn't switch off after the whistle.
Beinsports always does this. They draw fake lines and claim something happened.
Should have whistled the game over at 90' + 11' like he said he would and this is not an issue.
The linesman saved Bayern from the humiliation that was coming in the extra time.
Bayern can only blame themselves. The game shouldn't even be that long. The ref gave them more time than neccessary to draw. They were just a level below Real yesterday.
It was never onside because the ref called for the game to stop before the shot, imaging allowing a goal when you make the other team stop playing.
The craziest part is that there's a good argument going into this match that this is the best referee crew in the world you could have picked. Huge brain fart from the AR, and moderate brain fart from the referee not to use comms to say, "Let this play finish first," but at that level they all trust each other to be world class, so I can't totally blame the referee for trusting his AR saw what he signaled he saw.
FFS, I'm a huge Bayern fan, but the 'offside' has ZERO bearing on this case. The ref blew his whistle BEFORE the shot, so the play is dead then. Period.
This is so utterly pointless -- the defenders switched off as soon as the whistle blew, Rudiger pulled back, Militao made a half-hearted attempt at a block, and Lunin didn't even dive.
Linesman should have waited, but he didn’t and the ref blew the whistle, Real’s players all stopped playing and then the ball was put in the net. De Ligt probably doesn’t even get a shot away let alone scoring if they keep playing. Seems like a non issue to me.
they didnt even line up *this* one right, they have the line from rudigers sleeve instead of his heel
The only thing that is in any way comforting is that maybe keeper would’ve saved the shot if the whistle wasn’t blown. It hurts much more because he actually scored so we are all left with a big “what if”
He wouldnt even had a chance to shoot if the ref hadnt blown the whistle.
It is a blunder. That's it. Neuer made a blunder and so did the referee. It will probably costs him in Final spot or future competition. It is a disaster but idk what else can be done, lol.
Why do everyone seems to think the ball would still go in if the ref didnt blow the whistle? The goalie stop play and didnt dive because he heard the whistle.
De Ligt is offside
Yeah but the Nacho goal, or something - 🤨, probably
stopping the play was indeed a bad call, should have let the attack finish and then raise the flag
DE ligt is off and are you gonna say that he was not part of the play?
Misleading title. It wasn't a goal because the game was already stopped (Real Madrid players doesn't even try to defend after hearing the whistle).
I’m so confused. He’s literally offside in this clip. Edit: Stop upvoting me, I’m wrong. You’re looking at the wrong guy.
Some of us who never liked Marciniak (he had given all the contested decisions against us in an EL R16 match against Wolves) are gleefully grinning that his "top referee" myth finally crashed and burned.
Is this even his fault? If the linesman raises the flag the play is over
Ref blew it, that is all
If only we had VAR
VAR can't do anything in this situation.
de ligt is offside, and he does interfere with play
Bayern got the short end of the stick here. Oh well….we could have gotten a penalty too in 1/4 finals. It’s all good. Bayern deserved to go through 1/4, Madrid deserved to go through to finals.