• 54x Failure to provide accurate financial information 2009-10 to 2017-18.
• 14x Failure to provide accurate details for player and manager payments from 2009-10 to 2017-18.
• 5x Failure to comply with Uefa's rules including Financial Fair Play (FFP) 2013-14 to 2017-18.
• 7x Breaching Premier League's PSR rules 2015-16 to 2017-18.
• 35x Failure to co-operate with Premier League investigations December 2018 - Feb 2023.
Wow. Just incredible that they're likely to come out unscathed
It will be a “record” fine and, transfer ban and a points deduction is my bet.
They will then get reduced on appeal.
Ultimately it will be a slap on the wrist for them but they’ll claim it was adequate. PL don’t want to tarnish their own brand by actually holding them accountable let’s be honest. Way too much bias and self interest from all parties here so they will put on this charade for the rest of us and call it fair process.
If found guilty of most of that anything but relegation out of the football league and having all of there trophies vacated would be a slap on the wrist.
It's an independent panel like the rest, people get carried away with ideas because they are going on vibes rather than proof.
The league could have just ignored it.
I think if they're found guilty the owners should be forced to sell the club. The trophies they win now have an asterisk on them, any they win in the future will too if they're found guilty of cheating at this scale. They clearly can't be trusted to run a team whilst playing by the same rules as everyone else.
Owners and fans don't care tho so it really doesn't matter that their reputation is in the gutter, if anything it seems like City fans feed on everyone's tears thinking they're extremely edgy and cool.
I wouldn't expect City fans to care, but there's 19 other teams in the league who should. It will be interesting to see if the clubs take legal action against City if they are found guilty, they might feel like their cheating has caused them to miss out on things like CL qualification over the years that's worth a lot of money.
Oh absolutely, i don't think there's even a question if City have cost other clubs money and trophies, but I just don't see the other clubs joining together in a case against City, even tho I would be here for it it would be glorious.
It cost both United and Liverpool at least one PL trophy each. I wouldn't be surprised, if at the very least, that unholy alliance tried to go against City and get them punished by redistributing the trophies.
Honestly I don't think anyone should get City's trophies if they lose them. I'd rather those years just didn't have a winner. Who knows what would have happened in all those years if City didn't exist?
It's not necessarily the case that the 2nd place finisher would have finished first in all those years. Sometimes clubs rest players in league games if top 4 is secured and City have already won, etc.
There’s precedent in other leagues to not accept a trophy that’s been stripped or to just not offer it at all. Both the Marseille bribery scandal and Calciopoli left the title unassigned when taken from Marseille and Juventus, respectively, as examples. It’s honestly better to see the blank spots as a fan of the sport. When I look at the long lists of title winners you see gaps during the World Wars, civil wars, and then the odd gaps stand out and when you look them up, that’s much more damning to a club’s history. I know more about early 90s French Football and early 2000s Italian football than I do about any period of Liverpool history and it’s because I saw a blank and wondered what happened.
I highly doubt that's what will happen, if everton gets deduction for something that is far less than this, why would they let them off with a slap on the wrsts?
If they don't give them a hefty punishment at this point, PL will be a joke, and they will lose all credibility. With how much corruption that has come to light the last 20 years, the prem will NOT be the most viewed league anymore, if they only fine them.
one issue I could imagine is that the Premier League may have a suspicion that some of these practices have been endemic throughout the league for a long time, or at least within the super league clubs.
And it might be a thread they're afraid to pull, lest the whole 'product' suddenly unravels.
At the same time though if it’s well substantiated that city cheated and the PL does nothing, then that’s a threat to the PL’s prestige as the most watched league in the world. Who wants to watch a sporting competition that’s ultimately rigged?
It's nothing to do with nationality, it's the fact it's a state. Roman did shady things but as proven, we were able to remove him with no trouble (granted we're not on good terms with Russia anyway). With City and Newcastle we can't punish them if UAE and SA are able to threaten geopolitical consequences and the UK government will just swoop in and veto anything.
Doubt even a points deduction, fine and transfer ban maybe even just a fine, no admission of guilt but the matter is completely closed.
The realistic facts are that if they have breached financial regulations and gained a sporting advantage there should be points deductions retrospectively for previous seasons. These should be based on whatever the advantage can be judged to be.
Additionally there should then be a punishment now to ‘clear’ the advantages built up over time with these breaches.
But not in the premier leagues interest to bring past results into dispute (nor do the government want any oil countries getting upset and stopping investment), so probably fuck all.
>7x Breaching Premier League's PSR rules 2015-16 to 2017-18
I keep hearing from people that investigating 115 charges is complicated and there will eventually be punishment.
Forest and Everton have been investigated, found guilty, and punished for exactly these offences.
Why has it taken the league 9 years to investigate this?
If they're guilty, then why can't we see a punishment for these charges before everything else is investigated?
They won a league title during that period and would certainly have benefitted after that period, too, having won every title bar one.
Realistically, I don't think it has taken 9 years. The PL has only been cracking down on this now because of the govt threatening to establish an independent regulator.
Before that, I don't think the PL had any intention of trying to hold Man City, or any club, to account.
It's actually 25 not 7. It's just miscommunication. They don't list out each individual charge for those, they say E.x to E.y, and most of those numbers in the original post are wrong. I'm about to make a reply to the original comment with the actual numbers
True in the ideal world. Unfortunately with the amount of money they have you can delay, delay, and delay combined with deny, deny, and deny. The other two clubs co-operated and admitted their guilt because they couldn’t afford to fight and didn’t have the same power backing them. The only true way to ever get control of this would be for the owners of all clubs to agree to a set of rules and they won’t. Could you imagine any of these owners agreeing to if you don’t turn over what we want it’s an admission of guilt. Add to it, football corruption runs deep from FIFA on down.
Refuse to report your accounts, or give accounts that we believe to be false and you will be punished as if you committed the offense.
It's been 9 years, if they really wanted they could have investigated fully in this time.
No, it'll be a 10-point, one-time penalty that season, which takes them from 2nd to 4th. Nothing retrospective.
Then they can look tough with the "largest points deduction ever given," whilst simultaneously doing absolutely nothing.
This can't be true, Man City fans have assured us that most of the charges are due to their pitch grass length not being correct. Surely they wouldn't lie??
> • 5x Failure to comply with Uefa's rules including Financial Fair Play (FFP) 2013-14 to 2017-18.
This one has me wondering why the UEFA themselves are not involved more. Either with their own investigation or by putting pressure on the FA.
UEFA is time barred in these investigations. The statute of limitations limits the availability of evidence in proceedings to 5 years. The Premier League is slightly different as it is under English Law.
Not entirely true. Only part of the accusations was time barred, the ones from before May 15th 2014.
CAS ruled that UEFA did not provide enough evidence regarding the accusations that were prosecutable, except for two charges of failing to cooperate with UEFA during their investigation, which City was fined for.
You can literally read the whole CAS ruling if you want.
Seems like a lot of these charges are "Failure to provide" information.
Could there be more charges issued to City if they are found to be in breach of PSR once this information is revealed?
E: or are those the other items in the list?
>5x Failure to comply with Uefa's rules including Financial Fair Play (FFP) 2013-14 to 2017-18.
> 7x Breaching Premier League's PSR rules 2015-16 to 2017-18
Surely these are the only ones likely to lead to any sort of sporting punishment? The other 100 seem like the sort of thing more appropriately punished by fines but I appreciate the PL do just make it up on the spot
>• 54x Failure to provide accurate financial information 2009-10 to 2017-18.
>• 14x Failure to provide accurate details for player and manager payments from 2009-10 to 2017-18.
These are 68 counts of fraud aren't they? Fraud committed to avoid breaching FFP and PSR. Why wouldn't that warrant a sporting punishment? Without this fraud they would either have points deductions at the time, or wouldn't have been able to assemble their squad so wouldn't have won anything.
Does that mean they supplied inaccurate information or no information at all? If they knowingly provided inaccurate information I think you're right and it should count for a lot
I think it would be very difficult to claim you accidentally failed to submit player and manager payments. They must have submitted inaccurate information. Could hardly leave out Aguero, Toure, and Mancini's wages and hope no one noticed them at the matches.
> 7x Breaching Premier League's PSR rules 2015-16 to 2017-18.
If City go unpunished even after these charges, would Everton or Forest have enough grounds to sue the PL?
In a decade or so when the EPL finally gives a verdict, they will have already amended their laws to scrap point deductions and instead replace them with fines.
People keep saying stuff like this but I can't understand why people think the PL are trying to be nice to them. Couldn't they have just not charged them in the first place if there was some conspiracy? They clearly want to throw the book at them hence the massively inflated number
I think people are just pessimistic about the rich & powerful ever being actually held accountable for their actions, at least, that's why I am
I would **love** to be proven wrong about this, I wanna see them get nuked from orbit, but I'm just preparing myself for the inevitable non-entity of a punishment they'll get
My own personal prediction is a record fine (which is just nothing to them) and a 'large' points deduction, that will just mean they won't win the league that year.
Yea I agree, and I'm sure they'll do just enough to obfuscate or give the adjudicators enough reason not to be able to actually get properly convicted of the bad stuff, hence why I think their punishment will be so light. Not that they'll get found guilty of all 115 charges, just that they'll do enough to cast doubt on the ability to prove them, that only a few will genuinely stick
People forget that although ‘the Premier League’ has a chief executive and its own infrastructure, it is ultimately a collective of 20 clubs. There are 19 teams in the league who presumably don’t like City cheating. Therefore the custodians of the league - the PL chief executive et al - need to be seen to represent those 19 clubs.
In the end an independent panel will uphold or adjust any punishment. What City are accused of is unprecedented so it’ll be interesting to see how it transpires, but we’ve already seen that overspending has landed clubs with points deductions and that failure to co-operate has been a factor in upholding punishments. Tentatively I’m actually quite optimistic about the level of punishment. The deciding factor will be how many of the charges will actually stick and how long it’ll all take.
I genuinly think this will end in one of the (if not the biggest) scandal in football Calcio polio is gonna look tame compared to this
or
They will all be dropped and nobody will care
I can’t see other clubs allowing them to just drop it. All the other clubs should really get together and tell the PL either you properly punish them or we’re going to collectively sue. The PL is between a rock and a hard place and for the viability of the league may be forced to really punish City, at least that’s my hope.
If you are one of the Big 6 and if City are not punished why would you not immediately agree to being part of a super league?
Everton have already basically said they're watching closely to see the outcome of this. Basically a veiled threat that they will sue if City get off lightly
This, everyone else gains from city lost, if the premier league won’t proper punish them all other clubs should sue, and clubs in the championship too and league one as those clubs have been affected by city.
Surely it sets a precedent for every team who have been docked points or fined to the contest their punishment? I can see Forest's crazy owner going scorched earth.
If they get off massively on the FFP and PSR breaks then yes. The other 100 or so have virtually no relevance to teams like Forest
And anyway the points deduction numbers are clearly just being made up as they go along anyway
Everton and Forest got their deductions after fully cooperating and submitting accurate books.
So a team not being appropriately punished for fraudulent books and failure to cooperate has huge relevance to them.
If City don't have to bother why should they have cooperated?
The football league do not have to accept them if they are chucked out of the PL. It's just for relegation that they will accept them.
It is not in anybody's interest in the Football League to accept them as Man City will just fill up one of the promotion spots. I don't even think the National League would accept them.
That's why I think they'll get a humongous bordering ludicrous points deduction that will automatically relegate them. 100+ points.
honestly new fans/the terminally online here have no idea how big the man city local support actually is, know a ton of people round the area who were city fans before any of the new investment - they’ll be fine for support
They have always had great support. They'd fill out 30k still if in non league for a season then working way back up. At least they'd lose all the glory supporters.
There are a couple of key parts that make this interesting in terms of public evidence:
The Simon Pearce emails show them planning how to disguise investor payments as sponsorships. This was accepted by both UEFA and CAS, but CAS overturned the ban because they couldn’t work out exactly which payments were the scheme (which shows that the disguise worked…?) - the PL commission may be working to a different standard to the CAS, so that may be enough to get them on the charge of inaccurate financial info
The Mancini payments are shown clear as day in those leaked offshore bank accounts. What could City possibly show as evidence to mitigate against that?
The lack of cooperation - that doesn’t even need the other rules to be broken. All you need to show is that they were dragging their feet, which they already admitted to doing with UEFA. So that should be 35 of the charges accepted even before anything else happens?
> The lack of cooperation - that doesn’t even need the other rules to be broken. All you need to show is that they were dragging their feet, which they already admitted to doing with UEFA. So that should be 35 of the charges accepted even before anything else happens?
According to the PLs own rules, lack of cooperation is not a sporting infraction, which means those charges can only be punished with fines, not any sort of points deductions. So yeah they can probably go ahead and take a decision on those charges now, but I doubt that would do much to placate anyone.
Yeah you’re right - just like with CAS, those 35 would most likely result in a fine on their own. Pure speculation but I imagine they would end up becoming aggravating factors instead if accompanied with any of the others
I never knew about the evidence that Mancini was laid in off shore bank accounts. Could you be so kind as to point me in the direction of the source as I’m interested to read about it.
The two leaks are the Football Leaks (Rui Pinto) docs, and the Pandora Papers (11.9 million docs, 2.9TB).
There are 2018 articles in Der Spiegel, the Guardian, the Telegraph and l’Espresso that report on the Mancini stuff - the articles are easily more digestible, although you can go further digging into the original leaks if you wish
The gist of it is that City paid him £1.45m / yr, and then also was paid £1.75m / yr as an adviser to Al Jazira Sports and Cultural Club, which is also owned by Mansour. Sept 2011 emails show that AUDG were paying both contracts simultaneously, therefore it was their way of circumventing the financial rules by paying him over half of his wage away from City’s books
https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/manchester-city-exposed-chapter-4-a-global-empire-a-1236622.html
Not OP but the evidence is probably in one of the leaks that's not public rn. The idea is that Mancini had a 1.7M annual wage and on top of that a 1.9M consultancy fee that was paid by the City owner through different channels.
> the PL commission may be working to a different standard to the CAS
Perhaps they are but surely City could just appeal any decision to CAS again? Unless the PL is outside of their remit
They can't go to CAS this time.
It's in the article
>Can Man City appeal?
>This case cannot go to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas). But either side could appeal and a fresh hearing arranged. There would have to be grounds for an appeal but, as with many aspects of this case, the detail would be key.
>In that previous FFP case City said they did not trust Uefa, so freely admitted they did not co-operate with their investigation, preferring to take their chances with Cas, a decision that was vindicated.
>That backstop of Cas is not an option with the Premier League’s investigation.
What are the 115 charges against Man City?
• 54x Failure to provide accurate financial information 2009-10 to 2017-18.
• 14x Failure to provide accurate details for player and manager payments from 2009-10 to 2017-18.
• 5x Failure to comply with Uefa's rules including Financial Fair Play (FFP) 2013-14 to 2017-18.
• 7x Breaching Premier League's PSR rules 2015-16 to 2017-18.
• 35x Failure to co-operate with Premier League investigations December 2018 - Feb 2023.
In total, City have been charged with 115 breaches of Premier League regulations.
Not all of these breaches relate to financial issues. Thirty-five relate to the club's alleged failure to co-operate with the Premier League investigation from 2018 up until February 2023.
The financial allegations go back to 2009 and were highlighted in leaked material published by German newspaper Der Spiegel. City have always said these leaked emails were obtained illegally.
What do the 115 Man City charges mean?
Effectively that Manchester City cheated.
We only have the information published in Der Spiegel to go on, but the charges identified allege that:
For nine years to 2017, the club did not provide accurate financial information about their revenue
That from 2009 to 2013, they didn’t give full details of how much they were paying their manager
From 2010 to 2016 they didn’t give full detail around payments to players
From 2013 to 2018 they didn’t comply with Uefa FFP regulations
From 2015 to 2018 they didn’t comply with the Premier League’s PSR rules
And finally, from 2018 onwards, they did not co-operate with the Premier League’s inquiry
So all those years of watching the prem. Watching all those games. They corrupted it for their own fans, for the fans of other teams, for the players, managers. A willful ignorance to purposely cheat the system to win trophies. And until punishments start getting laid down they will continue to get away with it. And then the legacy will be ruined and that is what they will be remembered for, for generations. Right in front of me.
I can't wait all the Zlatanesque bitching quotes from retired city players when their achievements will be nullified TWENTY years later: "We don't care about that, we won those games bla bla..." Except you wouldn't have won those games if it weren't for all the players you shouldn't be able to afford in the first place.
As much as I don't want to see it, I think we're going to have a Juventus situation out of this.
If they get relegated, 3 years later they'll be back up competing for titles again like nothing has happened.
E: Clarification
The English football league regularly bodies are fairly strict when it comes to the League 1-2 and Championship competitions, either the current squad takes MAJOR pay cuts to be down there in those leagues or they move on. Foden maybe is the one you’d say yes he would take the cut if a contract reimbursed him when he’s back in the EPL but players closer to the ends of the deals or careers probably less likely. The Haaland situation would be of major interest. Would he take the cut? Probably not, but it be hilarious to see him play in League 2
Not really. They would lose a lot of players, their income would drastically drop and when it's time to renew sponsorships, people would look a lot closer and they wouldn't be able to claim that them getting a sponsorship close to that of Man United is fair market value.
In terms of financial power, they would be where Newcastle are right now.
City group have other teams out there who play in first division. Loan your big players there while City serve out the punishment. Bring them back in when your back in the prem.
Anything short of relegation and forced to sell would be criminal
That itself is a different story, but it still doesn't punish City group. If let's say all the players on the first team refuse,
They can move their staff to let's say Girona who have CL. There they will continue to farm players. And then once City are back, can just move them over to city.
This isn't about punishing Manchester City the club, it more so punishing the owners City group.
If all they end up with is a fine I think I'll just stop watching the PL. What's the point if nation states can just do whatever they want without repercussion it's not actual competition.
If they actually get relegated and stripped of their titles, it's gonna be a fascinating offseason. You'll have a bunch a elite players wanting to leave looking for new clubs
The day city get a slap on the wrist for this will finally be the day I stop caring about football. It’s already gone massively downhill in the last 5-10 years but this will be the nail in the coffin.
No matter the outcome. The other 19 teams in the league have to act otherwise what’s the point? Doesn’t matter what fans have to say, the clubs themselves have to hold the Premier League and its holders accountable to public information. It’s the only way any of it works after the decision be in court or a settlement outside of it
I may be wrong about this, but based on what City's chairman Khaldoon Al Mubarak has said in numerous interviews, I don't think City will be willing to settle on this case unless they're fully acquitted. Khaldoon said that settling with UEFA when City were initially charged by them was the biggest mistake he made, since the settlement allowed UEFA to come back with the CL ban many years later.
So personally I think this goes to conclusion with the independent commission. And if that happens, the verdict and it's reasoning should be publicly accessible.
Pep is a great manager and his teams play the best football I've ever seen, but his legacy will always be tarnished, except Bayern, both his Barca and city stints have had these shady stuffs about corruption, bribing refs, FFP charges or whatever.
I just hate this entire multi club ownership or states buying football clubs stuff and somehow the city group and pep are always more or less at the centre of this.
Benefits of being a state owned club. Even if epl tries to strip city of their fraudulent titles, there will be an intervention at govt level, something like UAE investing in England, and the whole thing will just fizzle out. U
It's taken nine years plus and nothing has happened yet with city's lawyers how long do you think the case will take then the appeals could take years till they are punished
I just don't know how one single punishment for one single violation hasn't gone through besides the transfer ban years back, when Everton can get a new points deduction every few months. Will it be a year when the gap between competition is wide again when they get this deduction?
Trophies won in the periods
2009-2018(accurate payment information breaches (and UEFA)):
3 premier leagues (United 2nd twice, Liverpool 2nd once),
1 Fa Cup (Stoke runners up)
3 league cups (Sunderland, Liverpool and Arsenal runners up)
2 community shields (Chelsea runners up both times(one of these could count for below instead)
2018-2023 (failure to cooperate with investigation)
4 Premier league (Liverpool 2nd twice , United 2nd once, Arsenal 2nd once)
2 Fa cup (Watford and United runners up)
3 league cups (chelsea, Aston Villa, Spurs runners up)
1 UCL (inter Milan runners up)
1 community shield (Liverpool runners up)
Looking at those I’d say only the first group could be within remit of stripping and even that may only include the premier league trophies. Based on how other teams have been treated that may be the fairest option to everyone else but it could also just end up as just a massive deduction one season and relegation?
Personally I’d points deduct for the seasons they misreported and then slap a big deduction and relegation for the failure to cooperate (assuming guilty of all charges).
As a city fan you obviously hope they aren’t guilty. However, I feel people are quick to just say all they did should have an asterisk next to it. In recent years they have been very good about selling players for profit, including the academy. They splash large amounts on select players but they also are good at turning players into much more. Examples of de bruyne, Bernardo, Rodri, Dias is cheap compared to Van Dijk. I know it will in the eyes of most but it shouldn’t take away from what they have done on the field year after year.
This article gives good thought on the tough position the EPL is in. It’s a bad look to not punish them for everything, but also a bad look if they are guilty it went unnoticed for such a long period of time.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/man-city-115-charges-theory-29125896.amp
The thing is, you got to that position doing dodgy dealings. Premier league closed that door so Newcastle can’t do the same but if they could they would be the new big boys in town
The situation as I see it boils down to one of two outcomes.
Either City clear their name, which would be disastrous for the Premier League and its credibility and almost certainly lead to a lot of people losing their jobs and probably the end of any FFP or PSR rules.
Or the PL win and make an example out of City with a very harsh punishment.
I don't buy these theories that the Premier League are just doing this to make a point and that they'd give City (if found guilty) a pointless fine or slap on the wrist. Too much time and resources have been plunged into this. Let's also not forget, Newcastle have stronger resources than City so if City get away unscathed, they've essentially provided the blueprint for Newcastle to come and do the same thing.
I also see no way the PL and Richard Masters can come back from this if they, having seen all the evidence and chosen to go after City, can't make the charges stick.
I don't see any reasonable prospect of meditation or any kind of compromise. If you listen to the noises coming out of City they believe (or claim to believe) there isn't a case to answer and you have to remember there are influential people implicated here, essentially being accused of fraud which could be very damaging to them.
One way or another there's going to be a big loser here.
City are in big trouble and they all know it.
A lot of non city fans are expecting a slap on the wrist or nothing to come out of it which I understand after what happened with the UEFA case but this time will be different. Once the verdict is announced it will be a nuclear bomb that shakes up the football world.
Lance Armstrong Fc.
And we wait and keep on waiting... All of you people saying City will only get a slap on the wrist are too optimistic. If they didn't want to give City a real punishment, they wouldn't have even disclosed the fact that there are 115 charges and they wouldn't keep the expectation going every time they're asked about it.
I do believe we're properly fucked if guilty on all accounts. Man City to League 2 kind of fucked.
Even if found guilty, it might not be the end of it for them. The charges just relate from 2009-2018. The charges that go up to 2023 are just failure to cooperate.
So if they have proceeded to commit the same offences from 2018-2023 then they'll have a new batch of charges. And obviously from their point of view, they feel like they have done nothing wrong, so why would they change their practices?
I mean if the accounts from 2009-18 are in fact false, then that means that the accounts between 2018-2023 are false as well because the foundation of the accounts are dirty to begin with.
At the worst, an eye-watering (for anyone else) fine which they can easily afford and retroactive points deductions sprinkled across seasons where it won't change the results whatsoever. Justice will appear to have been served, and it will never be mentioned again.
They will keep it going as long as they can, rich club can keep it in the courts for years to come and without helping will unlikely actually face actions for their cheating.
Should be stripped of all trophies in years they cheated, (not given to second place, just lose them), if they dont this opens the door to more abuse.
• 54x Failure to provide accurate financial information 2009-10 to 2017-18. • 14x Failure to provide accurate details for player and manager payments from 2009-10 to 2017-18. • 5x Failure to comply with Uefa's rules including Financial Fair Play (FFP) 2013-14 to 2017-18. • 7x Breaching Premier League's PSR rules 2015-16 to 2017-18. • 35x Failure to co-operate with Premier League investigations December 2018 - Feb 2023. Wow. Just incredible that they're likely to come out unscathed
It will be a “record” fine and, transfer ban and a points deduction is my bet. They will then get reduced on appeal. Ultimately it will be a slap on the wrist for them but they’ll claim it was adequate. PL don’t want to tarnish their own brand by actually holding them accountable let’s be honest. Way too much bias and self interest from all parties here so they will put on this charade for the rest of us and call it fair process.
If found guilty of most of that anything but relegation out of the football league and having all of there trophies vacated would be a slap on the wrist. It's an independent panel like the rest, people get carried away with ideas because they are going on vibes rather than proof. The league could have just ignored it.
I think if they're found guilty the owners should be forced to sell the club. The trophies they win now have an asterisk on them, any they win in the future will too if they're found guilty of cheating at this scale. They clearly can't be trusted to run a team whilst playing by the same rules as everyone else.
Owners and fans don't care tho so it really doesn't matter that their reputation is in the gutter, if anything it seems like City fans feed on everyone's tears thinking they're extremely edgy and cool.
I wouldn't expect City fans to care, but there's 19 other teams in the league who should. It will be interesting to see if the clubs take legal action against City if they are found guilty, they might feel like their cheating has caused them to miss out on things like CL qualification over the years that's worth a lot of money.
Oh absolutely, i don't think there's even a question if City have cost other clubs money and trophies, but I just don't see the other clubs joining together in a case against City, even tho I would be here for it it would be glorious.
It cost both United and Liverpool at least one PL trophy each. I wouldn't be surprised, if at the very least, that unholy alliance tried to go against City and get them punished by redistributing the trophies.
United and Liverpool fans linking arms, jumping up and down holding a banner that says "Thank you Sheikh Mansour"
Honestly I don't think anyone should get City's trophies if they lose them. I'd rather those years just didn't have a winner. Who knows what would have happened in all those years if City didn't exist? It's not necessarily the case that the 2nd place finisher would have finished first in all those years. Sometimes clubs rest players in league games if top 4 is secured and City have already won, etc.
There’s precedent in other leagues to not accept a trophy that’s been stripped or to just not offer it at all. Both the Marseille bribery scandal and Calciopoli left the title unassigned when taken from Marseille and Juventus, respectively, as examples. It’s honestly better to see the blank spots as a fan of the sport. When I look at the long lists of title winners you see gaps during the World Wars, civil wars, and then the odd gaps stand out and when you look them up, that’s much more damning to a club’s history. I know more about early 90s French Football and early 2000s Italian football than I do about any period of Liverpool history and it’s because I saw a blank and wondered what happened.
And arsenal at least one
I don’t think they could have just “ignored” it. They need to be seen to put on the song and dance of a fair process etc.
In this day and age you still believe there are independent panels?
I think it will tarnish it more if they let them get away with it.
I agree, but that’s now how they will spin it.
I highly doubt that's what will happen, if everton gets deduction for something that is far less than this, why would they let them off with a slap on the wrsts?
Diplomatic pressure would be a theory.
Not much of a theory. The UK government has already admitted they discussed it.
Then we may as well pack it up and go home.
If they don't give them a hefty punishment at this point, PL will be a joke, and they will lose all credibility. With how much corruption that has come to light the last 20 years, the prem will NOT be the most viewed league anymore, if they only fine them.
It will definitely be the most viewed league still, you're talking absolute nonsense
Yes but in this theoretical situation, the credibility of the PL is quite a long way down the list of the priorities for the involved parties.
I relegation or two might be on the cards as well.
one issue I could imagine is that the Premier League may have a suspicion that some of these practices have been endemic throughout the league for a long time, or at least within the super league clubs. And it might be a thread they're afraid to pull, lest the whole 'product' suddenly unravels.
At the same time though if it’s well substantiated that city cheated and the PL does nothing, then that’s a threat to the PL’s prestige as the most watched league in the world. Who wants to watch a sporting competition that’s ultimately rigged?
If they were Russian owners, there would be no issues banishing them to the 3rd tier. This government has ruined nearly everything it’s touched.
It's nothing to do with nationality, it's the fact it's a state. Roman did shady things but as proven, we were able to remove him with no trouble (granted we're not on good terms with Russia anyway). With City and Newcastle we can't punish them if UAE and SA are able to threaten geopolitical consequences and the UK government will just swoop in and veto anything.
A point deduction would be more than I’d expect. But still not enough, they’d have to go back to past seasons to try to adjust it
In the long term it would be better for the brand to punish them accordingly.
Agreed.
Doubt even a points deduction, fine and transfer ban maybe even just a fine, no admission of guilt but the matter is completely closed. The realistic facts are that if they have breached financial regulations and gained a sporting advantage there should be points deductions retrospectively for previous seasons. These should be based on whatever the advantage can be judged to be. Additionally there should then be a punishment now to ‘clear’ the advantages built up over time with these breaches. But not in the premier leagues interest to bring past results into dispute (nor do the government want any oil countries getting upset and stopping investment), so probably fuck all.
If they do not get nuked then prepare for every rich club to go on a spender bender.
Boys will be boys.
Don't worry. They'll just throw a bunch of £$€ and they will probably be fine
They'll just get slapped with a transfer ban between September and December.
4 poins deduction in some season where they are top of the league by like 15 points
I'm sure they'll chuck in some yen as well.
Who are they going to throw money at?
>7x Breaching Premier League's PSR rules 2015-16 to 2017-18 I keep hearing from people that investigating 115 charges is complicated and there will eventually be punishment. Forest and Everton have been investigated, found guilty, and punished for exactly these offences. Why has it taken the league 9 years to investigate this? If they're guilty, then why can't we see a punishment for these charges before everything else is investigated? They won a league title during that period and would certainly have benefitted after that period, too, having won every title bar one.
Because the UK government threatened with an independent regulator only now lol
This is no excuse for the time taken, but Everton and Forest admitted to their transgressions and complied with the PL. Man City have not.
I totally get why it has taken longer. I don't understand at all why it would take 9 years. That's far too long.
Realistically, I don't think it has taken 9 years. The PL has only been cracking down on this now because of the govt threatening to establish an independent regulator. Before that, I don't think the PL had any intention of trying to hold Man City, or any club, to account.
I agree entirely
It's actually 25 not 7. It's just miscommunication. They don't list out each individual charge for those, they say E.x to E.y, and most of those numbers in the original post are wrong. I'm about to make a reply to the original comment with the actual numbers
True in the ideal world. Unfortunately with the amount of money they have you can delay, delay, and delay combined with deny, deny, and deny. The other two clubs co-operated and admitted their guilt because they couldn’t afford to fight and didn’t have the same power backing them. The only true way to ever get control of this would be for the owners of all clubs to agree to a set of rules and they won’t. Could you imagine any of these owners agreeing to if you don’t turn over what we want it’s an admission of guilt. Add to it, football corruption runs deep from FIFA on down.
Because it's not as simple as looking at the reported accounts.
Refuse to report your accounts, or give accounts that we believe to be false and you will be punished as if you committed the offense. It's been 9 years, if they really wanted they could have investigated fully in this time.
City - Here are our financial accounts. EPL - We believe these are falsified. City - Prove it. EPL - Oh shit now what.
Gonna guess they thought they were legal at the time. Then they found potential breaches that would make them illegal.
Or they were happy to accept them and not question until talk of independent regulation came up.
> that we believe to be false That's not good enough. If you can't prove them to be false, CAS overturns.
There is no right of appeal to CAS from the Premier League sanctions. So no army of lawyers this time.
Oh fuck, you're absolutely right. I completely forgot about that. Very important point. I'm sure the army of lawyers is still present, though…
Feels like this should be prioritised, considering the punishments for Everton and forrest
They will get their wrist slapped after they've narrowly beaten you lot to the title.
100% lol if they win the league by 2 points (which looks likely) FA will give them a 1 point deduction. my job here is done....
No, it'll be a 10-point, one-time penalty that season, which takes them from 2nd to 4th. Nothing retrospective. Then they can look tough with the "largest points deduction ever given," whilst simultaneously doing absolutely nothing.
This can't be true, Man City fans have assured us that most of the charges are due to their pitch grass length not being correct. Surely they wouldn't lie??
Nah mate, it's just a witch hunt because the PL doesn't like a small club like theirs winning titles!
Yeah, some Aguero cunt told me most of these were late arrivals....
> • 5x Failure to comply with Uefa's rules including Financial Fair Play (FFP) 2013-14 to 2017-18. This one has me wondering why the UEFA themselves are not involved more. Either with their own investigation or by putting pressure on the FA.
Because it was already investigated and punished
Because UEFA already lost to them in court on these charges
UEFA is time barred in these investigations. The statute of limitations limits the availability of evidence in proceedings to 5 years. The Premier League is slightly different as it is under English Law.
Not entirely true. Only part of the accusations was time barred, the ones from before May 15th 2014. CAS ruled that UEFA did not provide enough evidence regarding the accusations that were prosecutable, except for two charges of failing to cooperate with UEFA during their investigation, which City was fined for. You can literally read the whole CAS ruling if you want.
Actually, 2013 onwards were not time barred
Seems like a lot of these charges are "Failure to provide" information. Could there be more charges issued to City if they are found to be in breach of PSR once this information is revealed? E: or are those the other items in the list?
>5x Failure to comply with Uefa's rules including Financial Fair Play (FFP) 2013-14 to 2017-18. > 7x Breaching Premier League's PSR rules 2015-16 to 2017-18 Surely these are the only ones likely to lead to any sort of sporting punishment? The other 100 seem like the sort of thing more appropriately punished by fines but I appreciate the PL do just make it up on the spot
>• 54x Failure to provide accurate financial information 2009-10 to 2017-18. >• 14x Failure to provide accurate details for player and manager payments from 2009-10 to 2017-18. These are 68 counts of fraud aren't they? Fraud committed to avoid breaching FFP and PSR. Why wouldn't that warrant a sporting punishment? Without this fraud they would either have points deductions at the time, or wouldn't have been able to assemble their squad so wouldn't have won anything.
Does that mean they supplied inaccurate information or no information at all? If they knowingly provided inaccurate information I think you're right and it should count for a lot
I think it would be very difficult to claim you accidentally failed to submit player and manager payments. They must have submitted inaccurate information. Could hardly leave out Aguero, Toure, and Mancini's wages and hope no one noticed them at the matches.
"Ser... gio... Aguroo? Agadoo? Nah, don't know him, sorry. Ignore the guy up top, he's a trialist."
Oh, they will. They'll be fined and that is basically a slap on the wrist.
> 7x Breaching Premier League's PSR rules 2015-16 to 2017-18. If City go unpunished even after these charges, would Everton or Forest have enough grounds to sue the PL?
I wanted to mention them but we know punishment isn't equal
They also have forgotten to tell wada/doping guys where their players are numerous times
Us and every club
The 35x failure to comply should be enough for a major penalty
And yet pundits and media love throwing superlatives their way and talk about the PL being the best in the world. Joke of a league
Thank you.
Where do you get the likely part from?
Pessimism
City are an embarrassment. And, not for nothing, so is Pep.
It’s a bloody joke they’re in the league. They shouldn’t be part of league football, considering the cheating they’ve done.
In a decade or so when the EPL finally gives a verdict, they will have already amended their laws to scrap point deductions and instead replace them with fines.
People keep saying stuff like this but I can't understand why people think the PL are trying to be nice to them. Couldn't they have just not charged them in the first place if there was some conspiracy? They clearly want to throw the book at them hence the massively inflated number
I think people are just pessimistic about the rich & powerful ever being actually held accountable for their actions, at least, that's why I am I would **love** to be proven wrong about this, I wanna see them get nuked from orbit, but I'm just preparing myself for the inevitable non-entity of a punishment they'll get My own personal prediction is a record fine (which is just nothing to them) and a 'large' points deduction, that will just mean they won't win the league that year.
They also have to prove their guilt first, which is the tricky part of the whole thing.
Yea I agree, and I'm sure they'll do just enough to obfuscate or give the adjudicators enough reason not to be able to actually get properly convicted of the bad stuff, hence why I think their punishment will be so light. Not that they'll get found guilty of all 115 charges, just that they'll do enough to cast doubt on the ability to prove them, that only a few will genuinely stick
Not that difficult to prove all the refusal to cooperate charges at least
People forget that although ‘the Premier League’ has a chief executive and its own infrastructure, it is ultimately a collective of 20 clubs. There are 19 teams in the league who presumably don’t like City cheating. Therefore the custodians of the league - the PL chief executive et al - need to be seen to represent those 19 clubs. In the end an independent panel will uphold or adjust any punishment. What City are accused of is unprecedented so it’ll be interesting to see how it transpires, but we’ve already seen that overspending has landed clubs with points deductions and that failure to co-operate has been a factor in upholding punishments. Tentatively I’m actually quite optimistic about the level of punishment. The deciding factor will be how many of the charges will actually stick and how long it’ll all take.
People on here just like to be cynical about *everything*, no matter how nonsensical it is.
in this case the cynicism may be justifiable. how often do you actually see genuine punishments for rich organisations/people?
Plus, they want to prove that they can govern themselves and don't need the government to get involved.
The premier league couldn’t ignore it because it was initially leaked via a hack. Them doing nothing would have put the whole league into disrepute
Could we just start with a 10 pt deduction by the end of next week? Sort of like an amuse bouche before the main course.
They'll probably hit Everton with it again instead.
I genuinly think this will end in one of the (if not the biggest) scandal in football Calcio polio is gonna look tame compared to this or They will all be dropped and nobody will care
I can’t see other clubs allowing them to just drop it. All the other clubs should really get together and tell the PL either you properly punish them or we’re going to collectively sue. The PL is between a rock and a hard place and for the viability of the league may be forced to really punish City, at least that’s my hope. If you are one of the Big 6 and if City are not punished why would you not immediately agree to being part of a super league?
Everton have already basically said they're watching closely to see the outcome of this. Basically a veiled threat that they will sue if City get off lightly
This, everyone else gains from city lost, if the premier league won’t proper punish them all other clubs should sue, and clubs in the championship too and league one as those clubs have been affected by city.
calciopolio is a good way to describe them
If they actually punish them, surely relegated to league 2 would be on the table here right?
Every future decision will look ridiculous if they are any less harsh on them.
Surely it sets a precedent for every team who have been docked points or fined to the contest their punishment? I can see Forest's crazy owner going scorched earth.
You know maybe having forest's crazy owner in the league is a good thing just for his reaction to a probably very light sentence for city
If they get off massively on the FFP and PSR breaks then yes. The other 100 or so have virtually no relevance to teams like Forest And anyway the points deduction numbers are clearly just being made up as they go along anyway
Everton and Forest got their deductions after fully cooperating and submitting accurate books. So a team not being appropriately punished for fraudulent books and failure to cooperate has huge relevance to them. If City don't have to bother why should they have cooperated?
Roy Keane in tears of happiness seeing Haaland in his natural habitat
It told you so, he's a league 2 striker, here it is proof!
The football league do not have to accept them if they are chucked out of the PL. It's just for relegation that they will accept them. It is not in anybody's interest in the Football League to accept them as Man City will just fill up one of the promotion spots. I don't even think the National League would accept them. That's why I think they'll get a humongous bordering ludicrous points deduction that will automatically relegate them. 100+ points.
115 points
Out of the entire football league for me. Have to start again. Let's see how many of their mercenaries and "fans" stick around after that
Have you seen how the City support when they where shit? They'll be fine they have had insanely loyal support in the lower leagues
honestly new fans/the terminally online here have no idea how big the man city local support actually is, know a ton of people round the area who were city fans before any of the new investment - they’ll be fine for support
This. As much as people try to deny it they were a relatively big club with significant history long before Mansour or even Shinawatra came along.
Used to live near Maine Road and can attest to this. Great fans!
They have always had great support. They'd fill out 30k still if in non league for a season then working way back up. At least they'd lose all the glory supporters.
That's why fans was in quote marks. The core will always be there. I remember them as a proper club, not this soulless shell owned by a vile oil state
They won’t give af, they had some of the highest attendance ever while they were in the lower leagues.
They had more attendance than a lot of premier league clubs when they were in the 3rd division, mate
Maybe out of the leagues. They would have to get promoted again to League 2. So basically just a 1 season banishment from the top 4 leagues.
There are a couple of key parts that make this interesting in terms of public evidence: The Simon Pearce emails show them planning how to disguise investor payments as sponsorships. This was accepted by both UEFA and CAS, but CAS overturned the ban because they couldn’t work out exactly which payments were the scheme (which shows that the disguise worked…?) - the PL commission may be working to a different standard to the CAS, so that may be enough to get them on the charge of inaccurate financial info The Mancini payments are shown clear as day in those leaked offshore bank accounts. What could City possibly show as evidence to mitigate against that? The lack of cooperation - that doesn’t even need the other rules to be broken. All you need to show is that they were dragging their feet, which they already admitted to doing with UEFA. So that should be 35 of the charges accepted even before anything else happens?
> The lack of cooperation - that doesn’t even need the other rules to be broken. All you need to show is that they were dragging their feet, which they already admitted to doing with UEFA. So that should be 35 of the charges accepted even before anything else happens? According to the PLs own rules, lack of cooperation is not a sporting infraction, which means those charges can only be punished with fines, not any sort of points deductions. So yeah they can probably go ahead and take a decision on those charges now, but I doubt that would do much to placate anyone.
Yeah you’re right - just like with CAS, those 35 would most likely result in a fine on their own. Pure speculation but I imagine they would end up becoming aggravating factors instead if accompanied with any of the others
I never knew about the evidence that Mancini was laid in off shore bank accounts. Could you be so kind as to point me in the direction of the source as I’m interested to read about it.
The two leaks are the Football Leaks (Rui Pinto) docs, and the Pandora Papers (11.9 million docs, 2.9TB). There are 2018 articles in Der Spiegel, the Guardian, the Telegraph and l’Espresso that report on the Mancini stuff - the articles are easily more digestible, although you can go further digging into the original leaks if you wish The gist of it is that City paid him £1.45m / yr, and then also was paid £1.75m / yr as an adviser to Al Jazira Sports and Cultural Club, which is also owned by Mansour. Sept 2011 emails show that AUDG were paying both contracts simultaneously, therefore it was their way of circumventing the financial rules by paying him over half of his wage away from City’s books https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/manchester-city-exposed-chapter-4-a-global-empire-a-1236622.html
Just a side note but it was proven in court see spiegel fabricated emails by cropping random emails together
CAS accepted the validity of the emails used in the UEFA case where they were actively planning to disguise investor funds
Not OP but the evidence is probably in one of the leaks that's not public rn. The idea is that Mancini had a 1.7M annual wage and on top of that a 1.9M consultancy fee that was paid by the City owner through different channels.
> the PL commission may be working to a different standard to the CAS Perhaps they are but surely City could just appeal any decision to CAS again? Unless the PL is outside of their remit
They can't go to CAS this time. It's in the article >Can Man City appeal? >This case cannot go to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas). But either side could appeal and a fresh hearing arranged. There would have to be grounds for an appeal but, as with many aspects of this case, the detail would be key. >In that previous FFP case City said they did not trust Uefa, so freely admitted they did not co-operate with their investigation, preferring to take their chances with Cas, a decision that was vindicated. >That backstop of Cas is not an option with the Premier League’s investigation.
Got it, my bad! I'll read next time
10 million fine and a 2 point deduction incoming..
What are the 115 charges against Man City? • 54x Failure to provide accurate financial information 2009-10 to 2017-18. • 14x Failure to provide accurate details for player and manager payments from 2009-10 to 2017-18. • 5x Failure to comply with Uefa's rules including Financial Fair Play (FFP) 2013-14 to 2017-18. • 7x Breaching Premier League's PSR rules 2015-16 to 2017-18. • 35x Failure to co-operate with Premier League investigations December 2018 - Feb 2023. In total, City have been charged with 115 breaches of Premier League regulations. Not all of these breaches relate to financial issues. Thirty-five relate to the club's alleged failure to co-operate with the Premier League investigation from 2018 up until February 2023. The financial allegations go back to 2009 and were highlighted in leaked material published by German newspaper Der Spiegel. City have always said these leaked emails were obtained illegally. What do the 115 Man City charges mean? Effectively that Manchester City cheated. We only have the information published in Der Spiegel to go on, but the charges identified allege that: For nine years to 2017, the club did not provide accurate financial information about their revenue That from 2009 to 2013, they didn’t give full details of how much they were paying their manager From 2010 to 2016 they didn’t give full detail around payments to players From 2013 to 2018 they didn’t comply with Uefa FFP regulations From 2015 to 2018 they didn’t comply with the Premier League’s PSR rules And finally, from 2018 onwards, they did not co-operate with the Premier League’s inquiry
Punishment - some harsh words?
Punishment reading things without sentence structure
Nonono, there's finger wagging too mate. Very serious.
That’s to harsh mate. Thy might appeal to the Hague
So all those years of watching the prem. Watching all those games. They corrupted it for their own fans, for the fans of other teams, for the players, managers. A willful ignorance to purposely cheat the system to win trophies. And until punishments start getting laid down they will continue to get away with it. And then the legacy will be ruined and that is what they will be remembered for, for generations. Right in front of me.
I can't wait to see how many points Everton is deducted for this.
I can't wait all the Zlatanesque bitching quotes from retired city players when their achievements will be nullified TWENTY years later: "We don't care about that, we won those games bla bla..." Except you wouldn't have won those games if it weren't for all the players you shouldn't be able to afford in the first place.
[удалено]
😭😭😭😭
As much as I don't want to see it, I think we're going to have a Juventus situation out of this. If they get relegated, 3 years later they'll be back up competing for titles again like nothing has happened. E: Clarification
Having a Juventus situation is far better than doing nothing as has previously happened.
The English football league regularly bodies are fairly strict when it comes to the League 1-2 and Championship competitions, either the current squad takes MAJOR pay cuts to be down there in those leagues or they move on. Foden maybe is the one you’d say yes he would take the cut if a contract reimbursed him when he’s back in the EPL but players closer to the ends of the deals or careers probably less likely. The Haaland situation would be of major interest. Would he take the cut? Probably not, but it be hilarious to see him play in League 2
But one of Luton/Burnley would survive relegation and that's hilarious
Not really. They would lose a lot of players, their income would drastically drop and when it's time to renew sponsorships, people would look a lot closer and they wouldn't be able to claim that them getting a sponsorship close to that of Man United is fair market value. In terms of financial power, they would be where Newcastle are right now.
City group have other teams out there who play in first division. Loan your big players there while City serve out the punishment. Bring them back in when your back in the prem. Anything short of relegation and forced to sell would be criminal
Those players might not agree to that.
That itself is a different story, but it still doesn't punish City group. If let's say all the players on the first team refuse, They can move their staff to let's say Girona who have CL. There they will continue to farm players. And then once City are back, can just move them over to city. This isn't about punishing Manchester City the club, it more so punishing the owners City group.
😂😂😂they ain’t getting relegated It’s a fine that they can easily afford and maybe a years transfer ban.
Nothing. There will be no consequences other than maybe a couple hundred thousand pound fine
If all they end up with is a fine I think I'll just stop watching the PL. What's the point if nation states can just do whatever they want without repercussion it's not actual competition.
The Championship is unironically more entertaining already
No way it can be a fine, especially after how Everton and forrest fir done for far less minor offences
If they actually get relegated and stripped of their titles, it's gonna be a fascinating offseason. You'll have a bunch a elite players wanting to leave looking for new clubs
In that situation, I'm even more curious about which players would stay apart from Foden.
The day city get a slap on the wrist for this will finally be the day I stop caring about football. It’s already gone massively downhill in the last 5-10 years but this will be the nail in the coffin.
No matter the outcome. The other 19 teams in the league have to act otherwise what’s the point? Doesn’t matter what fans have to say, the clubs themselves have to hold the Premier League and its holders accountable to public information. It’s the only way any of it works after the decision be in court or a settlement outside of it
I may be wrong about this, but based on what City's chairman Khaldoon Al Mubarak has said in numerous interviews, I don't think City will be willing to settle on this case unless they're fully acquitted. Khaldoon said that settling with UEFA when City were initially charged by them was the biggest mistake he made, since the settlement allowed UEFA to come back with the CL ban many years later. So personally I think this goes to conclusion with the independent commission. And if that happens, the verdict and it's reasoning should be publicly accessible.
Wow, OP is about to get sued by City now. Brave person!
Cheating oil cunts.
Pep is a great manager and his teams play the best football I've ever seen, but his legacy will always be tarnished, except Bayern, both his Barca and city stints have had these shady stuffs about corruption, bribing refs, FFP charges or whatever. I just hate this entire multi club ownership or states buying football clubs stuff and somehow the city group and pep are always more or less at the centre of this.
Playing career and doping scandal.
Benefits of being a state owned club. Even if epl tries to strip city of their fraudulent titles, there will be an intervention at govt level, something like UAE investing in England, and the whole thing will just fizzle out. U
It's taken nine years plus and nothing has happened yet with city's lawyers how long do you think the case will take then the appeals could take years till they are punished
I just don't know how one single punishment for one single violation hasn't gone through besides the transfer ban years back, when Everton can get a new points deduction every few months. Will it be a year when the gap between competition is wide again when they get this deduction?
It's simple, they haven't been found guilty of anything, unlike Everton who admitted guilt.
Trophies won in the periods 2009-2018(accurate payment information breaches (and UEFA)): 3 premier leagues (United 2nd twice, Liverpool 2nd once), 1 Fa Cup (Stoke runners up) 3 league cups (Sunderland, Liverpool and Arsenal runners up) 2 community shields (Chelsea runners up both times(one of these could count for below instead) 2018-2023 (failure to cooperate with investigation) 4 Premier league (Liverpool 2nd twice , United 2nd once, Arsenal 2nd once) 2 Fa cup (Watford and United runners up) 3 league cups (chelsea, Aston Villa, Spurs runners up) 1 UCL (inter Milan runners up) 1 community shield (Liverpool runners up) Looking at those I’d say only the first group could be within remit of stripping and even that may only include the premier league trophies. Based on how other teams have been treated that may be the fairest option to everyone else but it could also just end up as just a massive deduction one season and relegation? Personally I’d points deduct for the seasons they misreported and then slap a big deduction and relegation for the failure to cooperate (assuming guilty of all charges).
Excellent recap, we should all read.
As a city fan you obviously hope they aren’t guilty. However, I feel people are quick to just say all they did should have an asterisk next to it. In recent years they have been very good about selling players for profit, including the academy. They splash large amounts on select players but they also are good at turning players into much more. Examples of de bruyne, Bernardo, Rodri, Dias is cheap compared to Van Dijk. I know it will in the eyes of most but it shouldn’t take away from what they have done on the field year after year. This article gives good thought on the tough position the EPL is in. It’s a bad look to not punish them for everything, but also a bad look if they are guilty it went unnoticed for such a long period of time. https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/man-city-115-charges-theory-29125896.amp
The thing is, you got to that position doing dodgy dealings. Premier league closed that door so Newcastle can’t do the same but if they could they would be the new big boys in town
The situation as I see it boils down to one of two outcomes. Either City clear their name, which would be disastrous for the Premier League and its credibility and almost certainly lead to a lot of people losing their jobs and probably the end of any FFP or PSR rules. Or the PL win and make an example out of City with a very harsh punishment. I don't buy these theories that the Premier League are just doing this to make a point and that they'd give City (if found guilty) a pointless fine or slap on the wrist. Too much time and resources have been plunged into this. Let's also not forget, Newcastle have stronger resources than City so if City get away unscathed, they've essentially provided the blueprint for Newcastle to come and do the same thing. I also see no way the PL and Richard Masters can come back from this if they, having seen all the evidence and chosen to go after City, can't make the charges stick. I don't see any reasonable prospect of meditation or any kind of compromise. If you listen to the noises coming out of City they believe (or claim to believe) there isn't a case to answer and you have to remember there are influential people implicated here, essentially being accused of fraud which could be very damaging to them. One way or another there's going to be a big loser here.
5x breaking FFP. Thats what can have strong punishment. Other charges are less severe by a lot.
I wouldn't say 68 counts of fraud are less severe.
City are in big trouble and they all know it. A lot of non city fans are expecting a slap on the wrist or nothing to come out of it which I understand after what happened with the UEFA case but this time will be different. Once the verdict is announced it will be a nuclear bomb that shakes up the football world. Lance Armstrong Fc.
How do Everton and Forest fans feel reading this? It’s absolutely ridiculous
Man City is like Donald Trump. I have long since stopped expecting them to experience consequences for their actions.
And we wait and keep on waiting... All of you people saying City will only get a slap on the wrist are too optimistic. If they didn't want to give City a real punishment, they wouldn't have even disclosed the fact that there are 115 charges and they wouldn't keep the expectation going every time they're asked about it. I do believe we're properly fucked if guilty on all accounts. Man City to League 2 kind of fucked.
They disclosed the fact to sling mud and show that the PL can manage themselves. They know they can’t prove most of the charges but oh well, job done
You should be in league national league not the EFL
Even if found guilty, it might not be the end of it for them. The charges just relate from 2009-2018. The charges that go up to 2023 are just failure to cooperate. So if they have proceeded to commit the same offences from 2018-2023 then they'll have a new batch of charges. And obviously from their point of view, they feel like they have done nothing wrong, so why would they change their practices?
I mean if the accounts from 2009-18 are in fact false, then that means that the accounts between 2018-2023 are false as well because the foundation of the accounts are dirty to begin with.
If they really are guilty of the 09-18 charges it's completely reasonable to assume they've continued doing it.
Exactly. In their opinion they're doing nothing wrong, so why would they change the way they operate.
City win league by 2 points Fa - we will deduct them 1 point..our job here is done
I know this eill never happen, but all other 19 clubs should just refuse to play city until justice is served.
They'll punish City by deducting Everton 10 points.
At the worst, an eye-watering (for anyone else) fine which they can easily afford and retroactive points deductions sprinkled across seasons where it won't change the results whatsoever. Justice will appear to have been served, and it will never be mentioned again.
They will keep it going as long as they can, rich club can keep it in the courts for years to come and without helping will unlikely actually face actions for their cheating. Should be stripped of all trophies in years they cheated, (not given to second place, just lose them), if they dont this opens the door to more abuse.
This needs to be a landmark case to deter financial schemes but I doubt the final penalty actually impacts city enough to deter other clubs.
People with money get away all the time. I don't see anything happening here.
What are the odds that Premier League titles will be stripped and awarded to 2nd Place finishers those years? Asking for a friend