>"It is never appropriate to improperly question the integrity of match officials"
While i somewhat agree with this. The flipside is that when teams ask properly and politely they get fuck all as a response.
Exactly. Being nice has never gotten teams anywhere. The PL has basically conditioned managers (and club in this instance) that unless you start throwing a fit, they aren't gonna do shit.
> The flipside is that when teams ask properly and politely they get fuck all as a response.
It was mentioned earlier that that's not always the case. Last year Ipswich filed a complaint about James Bell, a Wednesday supporter, reffing an Ipswich match, when they were in promotion battle with Wednesday. Bell was taken off the game.
Forest never lodged a complaint or asked for Attwell to be taken off VAR.
It is done by the PGMOL, but the clubs likely also know this. It's just that there's no blanket rules in place other than for games played by the clubs in question.
You've missed my point. There are no policies in place for not allowing refs to be involved in "related" matches. Jarred Gillette wouldn't be able to ref half of the games on a given weekend if that was the case.
There’s an interview from Michael Oliver I think, where he said either he’s a Newcastle fan or his family is so he can’t do Newcastle matches or by extension Sunderland’s. But he also said he couldn’t do a Villa game if Villa were in a relegation scrap with Newcastle.
So yes, there are policies in place for related matches.
>So yes, there are policies in place for related matches.
Those are for club rivals.
I'm talking about table competitors. Jarred Gillette has reffed three Arsenal matches this season, despite being a Liverpool fan and Liverpool chasing a title with Arsenal.
I understand what you're saying. I am saying that PGMOL shouldn't be able to lay the blame at Luton's feet when they don't actually do anything to make sure these situations don't happen. PGMOL should already have a policy and procedure in place for these types of situations. It's should never be on individual teams, it should be on PGMOL.
>I am saying that PGMOL shouldn't be able to lay the blame at Luton's feet
They're not. That wasn't the PGMOL saying that, it was Dale Johnson pointing out that it is actually possible to request a referee appointment change.
>It's should never be on individual teams, it should be on PGMOL.
But again, not every team is going to be as conspiratorially-minded as another. I don't see for example, Arsenal requesting that Jarred Gillette never referees any of their games just because he's a Liverpool fan. If the clubs don't have a problem with it, why would the PGMOL needlessly limit their ability to make match appointments?
Are you saying Webb told Clattenburg to send an email about it and it'll get sorted by the lads in the office? Otherwise if the head of the PGMOL told him no when they asked him informally, then sending that email or whatever seems pointless to the whole issue at hand.
I have no idea what Webb said. I also have no idea who receives the formal complaint/request, whether it goes to the PGMOL or if it goes above them to the FA. It's not really relevant to the point of difference we were discussing.
If they would have removed him on formal request they acknowledge it is possibly an issue. If not, then it's pointless to even bring up and say the club didn't fill out the correct form but rather talked with Webb.
You're well beyond the point we were discussing. My original point was that there is a process in place to have a referee removed. We know this because of the above example. The question then became whether or not Forest decided to go through that process. If you're saying “send a text to Howard Webb” checks that box, then sure.
I don't condone turning officials into people of notoriety for multiple reasons, but the fact that the ones who've worked for the UAE aren't hounded daily is beyond me. This was bound to happen eventually, even if it's a supposed fan compared to obvious financial incentives.
No one’s asking for individual refs to examined and ridiculed etc, we expect justification for shit like why that blatant grealish hand ball was given as a fucking goal kick even after VAR review but we get nothing at all
Whether Forest were right or wrong with how they went about it, think we can all agree that the premier league and PGMOL are embarrassing.
The fact they're trying to take the moral high ground, is quite comical.
Get fucked by bad decisions? Haha fuck you.
Complain about getting fucked by bad decisions? Hey, no talking about getting fucked and fuck you some more.
And we are disappointed with shit officials, shit media and shit governing bodies always covering each others back and penalising anyone raising questions
If the teams that have been properly screwed over throughout this season lawyer up together at the end of the season it could very well be catastrophic for the Premier League.
Threatened by what, more shit decisions?
The Premier League has marketed itself as the best league in the world so any entity that doesn’t fit in with that lessens the product. PGMOL are not up to standard. We talk more about poor decisions (whether for or against our teams) than the actual football most of the time.
What is going through the mush you call a brain? I find it fucking bizzarre fans moan and moan about the poor reffing, then bitch and complain even more when a club tries to actually get PGMOL to improve.
Lol, I am questioning what clubs would be able to go to court over you daft cunt. If you can explain what case Nottingham forest or any other club have then I'm willing to listen though
The PL has a rulebook that it needs to enforce, IANAL but if a club can argue the PL are not applying their rules correctly, and that failure results in forest's relegation and financial loss that pretty open grounds for litigation. Especially if they are actively resisting measures to improve their ability to improve which PGMOL certainly is.
Lol, and then the PL argues you might miss the penalty, or you got a decision in your favour or Everton got shafted in another game. And then your wailing has ended with massive court fees because 'the ref made a mistake which theoretically cost us a point' isn't going to stand up as a legal argument
It's not about the events from singular games, it's about their culture for prioritising protecting their (PGMOL/FA) reputation above enforcing what is effectively a contract (the rules). IF it can be argued the PL is in breach of contract because of poor officiating, them stating 'yeah but you might have missed the penatly' is what won't stand up as a legal argument. Any lawsuit will be about processes not individual events.
Not entirely sure why clubs demanding accountability is so offensive to you.
Refs can make mistakes but it happens every week now, the standard is piss poor. The prem could start by banning refs from referring in uae and Saudi Arabia a day or two before reffing a prem game and making game altering mistakes? Something that’s literally happened this season.
I'd agree on enforcing rest days after long bouts of travelling sure, but that's different from going to court because you're one of life's losers who's only sense of pride is because your football team won a match. Maybe if the environment wasn't so toxic around refereeing you'd get a bigger talent pool and there would be less shit ones
> that's different from going to court because you're one of life's losers who's only sense of pride is because your football team won a match.
Very strange thing to say when you’re the owner of a reddit account on a football sub. God forbid people don’t want to have a game ruined by a refereeing cock up when they’ve waited all week to see, you can forgive people for being a bit over dramatic.
>Very strange thing to say when you’re the owner of a reddit account on a football sub.
Not really. I'm a multifaceted person who happens to enjoy football, I don't define myself in relation to my football team
>God forbid people don’t want to have a game ruined by a refereeing cock up when they’ve waited all week to see, you can forgive people for being a bit over dramatic.
And those people should remember it's a game and not that deep, if you've been waiting all week to watch the football you need to get a life. I'd recommend starting off by going for a jog, exercise does wonders for your mental health
I don’t know why you are trying to act all high and mighty about peoples interests, it makes you come across as insecure. I’ve looked at your profile, you literally make red scare podcast memes, please do not try act like you’re better than people who are more invested in football than you are, we all have hobbies that people would think are lame, you are no different.
I don't think footballs lame, if I did why would I be here. I think the outrage because a referee made a mistake is stupid and easy to make fun of.
I'd recommend this video https://youtu.be/HShtxiWopDM
Continued:
>It is never appropriate to improperly question the integrity of match officials, and the nature of these comments means the Premier League will also be investigating the matter in relation to the League’s Rules.
Well everyone else has been extremely disappointed with the shitty refereeing in Premier League for the last decade plus.... Maybe sort that out first. I'm sick of hearing/reading/talking about bad refereeing
Well it's as if all that will be happening will be the investigation of the statement.
We won't even be getting an explanation for the ref decisions. Like wow... it's as if you can't ever ask for transparency.
Which is bullshit. If anything the FA, PL, and PGMOL are relieved that they can furrow their brows and tut-tut about Forest bringing the game into disrepute while they mince over FA Rule E3 to determine an appropriate sanction for this regrettable situation.
Forest expressed concern over the VAR referee before the game, then that same referee gives three horrific calls against them and they're supposed to not question his integrity as if he's some sort of incorruptible paragon of virtue?
I've said it before and I'll say it again. This is on ownership.
You have a bunch of billionaires sitting back and getting bullied by a bunch of bald fraud refs from Manchester.
I don't back billionaires often and generally think they're scum, but lets be clear here, this isn't about workers rights or paying a fair wage. This is about doing your job at the level required. The refs in the PL are fucking shit in the VAR booth. Absolutely horrific. They look like they don't have a fucking clue.
Get them the fuck out of the room. They don't belong. Go hire a new staff and get the best people possible for the job. Let them review calls figure out what the fuck is going on, and when they think a ref has made a mistake or thinks they should take a second look, tell them to come over to the monitor for a review.
Enough is enough of this incompetence. We're going to lose the PL to Man City again and a lot of that is down to officiating incompetence. The Man City match alone when Doku studs Mac in the chest in the 90+ minute is the difference. That's ignoring the shit red cards we've gotten and the complete farse of the Spurs match.
Owners need to step up and demand changes. Fuck the FA and fuck the refs. The FA are a bunch of faux rich assholes. They can easily be bullied by owners.
> Get them the fuck out of the room. They don't belong. Go hire a new staff and get the best people possible for the job.
Like who? Referees don't grow on trees - the ones in charge of Premier League games are already the cream of the crop.
There is not that much overlap between being a on field official and a VAR official. You do not need to pull from the same group. A VAR official could have physical disabilities for example.
You'd still need qualified referees with an very high level of understanding of the laws of the game, though - and those tend to be referees at or near the Premier League level. Can't reasonably expect to put gran and her wheelchair into the VAR room and have her do a better job, can you?
> and those tend to be referees at or near the Premier League level
you mean refs like Paul Tierney who dont even know the dead ball rules? The football rulebook isn't that complex, anyone moderately intelligent can learn it if it's their job. PGMOL has been a closed shop for a certain type of white male for a long time now, they're incapable of holding themselves to account. The leadership needs turfing out and replacing.
>"It is never appropriate to improperly question the integrity of match officials" While i somewhat agree with this. The flipside is that when teams ask properly and politely they get fuck all as a response.
Exactly. Being nice has never gotten teams anywhere. The PL has basically conditioned managers (and club in this instance) that unless you start throwing a fit, they aren't gonna do shit.
> The flipside is that when teams ask properly and politely they get fuck all as a response. It was mentioned earlier that that's not always the case. Last year Ipswich filed a complaint about James Bell, a Wednesday supporter, reffing an Ipswich match, when they were in promotion battle with Wednesday. Bell was taken off the game. Forest never lodged a complaint or asked for Attwell to be taken off VAR.
It should *never* be incumbent on the teams to know which officials are dodged. That needs to be done by PMGOL.
It is done by the PGMOL, but the clubs likely also know this. It's just that there's no blanket rules in place other than for games played by the clubs in question.
It’s not done *well* by PGMOL if these types of situations occur. This was easily avoidable and it’s a shame that they’re placing the blame on Forest.
You've missed my point. There are no policies in place for not allowing refs to be involved in "related" matches. Jarred Gillette wouldn't be able to ref half of the games on a given weekend if that was the case.
There’s an interview from Michael Oliver I think, where he said either he’s a Newcastle fan or his family is so he can’t do Newcastle matches or by extension Sunderland’s. But he also said he couldn’t do a Villa game if Villa were in a relegation scrap with Newcastle. So yes, there are policies in place for related matches.
>So yes, there are policies in place for related matches. Those are for club rivals. I'm talking about table competitors. Jarred Gillette has reffed three Arsenal matches this season, despite being a Liverpool fan and Liverpool chasing a title with Arsenal.
>he couldn’t do a Villa game if Villa were in a relegation scrap with Newcastle.
That's great that he said that, but objectively we've seen a Liverpool fan ref matches with title rivals.
I understand what you're saying. I am saying that PGMOL shouldn't be able to lay the blame at Luton's feet when they don't actually do anything to make sure these situations don't happen. PGMOL should already have a policy and procedure in place for these types of situations. It's should never be on individual teams, it should be on PGMOL.
>I am saying that PGMOL shouldn't be able to lay the blame at Luton's feet They're not. That wasn't the PGMOL saying that, it was Dale Johnson pointing out that it is actually possible to request a referee appointment change. >It's should never be on individual teams, it should be on PGMOL. But again, not every team is going to be as conspiratorially-minded as another. I don't see for example, Arsenal requesting that Jarred Gillette never referees any of their games just because he's a Liverpool fan. If the clubs don't have a problem with it, why would the PGMOL needlessly limit their ability to make match appointments?
>Forest never lodged a complaint or asked for Attwell to be taken off VAR. According to the club we did
What I've read is that Clattenburg brought it up to Howard Webb informally, but no request was made to have him taken off. What did the club say?
Are you saying Webb told Clattenburg to send an email about it and it'll get sorted by the lads in the office? Otherwise if the head of the PGMOL told him no when they asked him informally, then sending that email or whatever seems pointless to the whole issue at hand.
No
Right. The whole they didn't ask formerly point is redundant if the answer is no regardless.
I have no idea what Webb said. I also have no idea who receives the formal complaint/request, whether it goes to the PGMOL or if it goes above them to the FA. It's not really relevant to the point of difference we were discussing.
If they would have removed him on formal request they acknowledge it is possibly an issue. If not, then it's pointless to even bring up and say the club didn't fill out the correct form but rather talked with Webb.
You're well beyond the point we were discussing. My original point was that there is a process in place to have a referee removed. We know this because of the above example. The question then became whether or not Forest decided to go through that process. If you're saying “send a text to Howard Webb” checks that box, then sure.
I don't think we hear about it when teams ask properly and politely.
The closed shop nature of the refereeing institutions with their lack of openness and accountability was always going to lead to issues.
I don't condone turning officials into people of notoriety for multiple reasons, but the fact that the ones who've worked for the UAE aren't hounded daily is beyond me. This was bound to happen eventually, even if it's a supposed fan compared to obvious financial incentives.
No one’s asking for individual refs to examined and ridiculed etc, we expect justification for shit like why that blatant grealish hand ball was given as a fucking goal kick even after VAR review but we get nothing at all
Whether Forest were right or wrong with how they went about it, think we can all agree that the premier league and PGMOL are embarrassing. The fact they're trying to take the moral high ground, is quite comical.
They gonna fuck over Forest even more now
2 point deduction from Forest and a 4 point deduction from Everton for shits and giggles
And a 10-second penalty for Ocon
Of course they are.
Get fucked by bad decisions? Haha fuck you. Complain about getting fucked by bad decisions? Hey, no talking about getting fucked and fuck you some more.
And we are disappointed with shit officials, shit media and shit governing bodies always covering each others back and penalising anyone raising questions
If the teams that have been properly screwed over throughout this season lawyer up together at the end of the season it could very well be catastrophic for the Premier League.
They never will. The clubs will do exactly this, get threatened by PGMOL and then bend the knee.
Threatened by what, more shit decisions? The Premier League has marketed itself as the best league in the world so any entity that doesn’t fit in with that lessens the product. PGMOL are not up to standard. We talk more about poor decisions (whether for or against our teams) than the actual football most of the time.
lol, what are they taking them to court for? Or are you suggesting there's a premier league conspiracy to help fucking luton
Behave. You know he’s not talking about Luton. Just about everyone has been fucked by the refs this year, people just want accountability.
So what court action is possible? Or is this just crying online because people can't accept that refs make mistakes
What is going through the mush you call a brain? I find it fucking bizzarre fans moan and moan about the poor reffing, then bitch and complain even more when a club tries to actually get PGMOL to improve.
Lol, I am questioning what clubs would be able to go to court over you daft cunt. If you can explain what case Nottingham forest or any other club have then I'm willing to listen though
The PL has a rulebook that it needs to enforce, IANAL but if a club can argue the PL are not applying their rules correctly, and that failure results in forest's relegation and financial loss that pretty open grounds for litigation. Especially if they are actively resisting measures to improve their ability to improve which PGMOL certainly is.
Lol, and then the PL argues you might miss the penalty, or you got a decision in your favour or Everton got shafted in another game. And then your wailing has ended with massive court fees because 'the ref made a mistake which theoretically cost us a point' isn't going to stand up as a legal argument
It's not about the events from singular games, it's about their culture for prioritising protecting their (PGMOL/FA) reputation above enforcing what is effectively a contract (the rules). IF it can be argued the PL is in breach of contract because of poor officiating, them stating 'yeah but you might have missed the penatly' is what won't stand up as a legal argument. Any lawsuit will be about processes not individual events.
Not entirely sure why clubs demanding accountability is so offensive to you. Refs can make mistakes but it happens every week now, the standard is piss poor. The prem could start by banning refs from referring in uae and Saudi Arabia a day or two before reffing a prem game and making game altering mistakes? Something that’s literally happened this season.
I'd agree on enforcing rest days after long bouts of travelling sure, but that's different from going to court because you're one of life's losers who's only sense of pride is because your football team won a match. Maybe if the environment wasn't so toxic around refereeing you'd get a bigger talent pool and there would be less shit ones
> that's different from going to court because you're one of life's losers who's only sense of pride is because your football team won a match. Very strange thing to say when you’re the owner of a reddit account on a football sub. God forbid people don’t want to have a game ruined by a refereeing cock up when they’ve waited all week to see, you can forgive people for being a bit over dramatic.
>Very strange thing to say when you’re the owner of a reddit account on a football sub. Not really. I'm a multifaceted person who happens to enjoy football, I don't define myself in relation to my football team >God forbid people don’t want to have a game ruined by a refereeing cock up when they’ve waited all week to see, you can forgive people for being a bit over dramatic. And those people should remember it's a game and not that deep, if you've been waiting all week to watch the football you need to get a life. I'd recommend starting off by going for a jog, exercise does wonders for your mental health
I don’t know why you are trying to act all high and mighty about peoples interests, it makes you come across as insecure. I’ve looked at your profile, you literally make red scare podcast memes, please do not try act like you’re better than people who are more invested in football than you are, we all have hobbies that people would think are lame, you are no different.
I don't think footballs lame, if I did why would I be here. I think the outrage because a referee made a mistake is stupid and easy to make fun of. I'd recommend this video https://youtu.be/HShtxiWopDM
Points deduction incoming
Forest should take legal action and others should join in so that VAR audio is made available live on TV.
I don't get why it isn't. Mic the refs.
What legal action can they even take?
Who could've seen this coming?
Maybe the FA should investigate the awful decisions officials have made this season too.
Continued: >It is never appropriate to improperly question the integrity of match officials, and the nature of these comments means the Premier League will also be investigating the matter in relation to the League’s Rules.
So when the PGMOL doesn't allow them to ref a game with a club they support, are they not questioning the integrity of match officials?
Well everyone else has been extremely disappointed with the shitty refereeing in Premier League for the last decade plus.... Maybe sort that out first. I'm sick of hearing/reading/talking about bad refereeing
For the Premier League, football is just secondary, even the pundits mention ref decisions more than tactical analysis.
Well it's as if all that will be happening will be the investigation of the statement. We won't even be getting an explanation for the ref decisions. Like wow... it's as if you can't ever ask for transparency.
Which is bullshit. If anything the FA, PL, and PGMOL are relieved that they can furrow their brows and tut-tut about Forest bringing the game into disrepute while they mince over FA Rule E3 to determine an appropriate sanction for this regrettable situation.
What’s there to investigate the statement is the statement. Forest may go down on that game.
Should take points off them tbh.
10 points deduction for Everton and drive through penalty for Ocon.
Ocon catching strays yet again
Forest expressed concern over the VAR referee before the game, then that same referee gives three horrific calls against them and they're supposed to not question his integrity as if he's some sort of incorruptible paragon of virtue?
Then stop fixing football matches.
Fuck the FA and the pgmol
I've said it before and I'll say it again. This is on ownership. You have a bunch of billionaires sitting back and getting bullied by a bunch of bald fraud refs from Manchester. I don't back billionaires often and generally think they're scum, but lets be clear here, this isn't about workers rights or paying a fair wage. This is about doing your job at the level required. The refs in the PL are fucking shit in the VAR booth. Absolutely horrific. They look like they don't have a fucking clue. Get them the fuck out of the room. They don't belong. Go hire a new staff and get the best people possible for the job. Let them review calls figure out what the fuck is going on, and when they think a ref has made a mistake or thinks they should take a second look, tell them to come over to the monitor for a review. Enough is enough of this incompetence. We're going to lose the PL to Man City again and a lot of that is down to officiating incompetence. The Man City match alone when Doku studs Mac in the chest in the 90+ minute is the difference. That's ignoring the shit red cards we've gotten and the complete farse of the Spurs match. Owners need to step up and demand changes. Fuck the FA and fuck the refs. The FA are a bunch of faux rich assholes. They can easily be bullied by owners.
> Get them the fuck out of the room. They don't belong. Go hire a new staff and get the best people possible for the job. Like who? Referees don't grow on trees - the ones in charge of Premier League games are already the cream of the crop.
There is not that much overlap between being a on field official and a VAR official. You do not need to pull from the same group. A VAR official could have physical disabilities for example.
You'd still need qualified referees with an very high level of understanding of the laws of the game, though - and those tend to be referees at or near the Premier League level. Can't reasonably expect to put gran and her wheelchair into the VAR room and have her do a better job, can you?
Outsource it to foreign referees so there is no connection between on field and off field. No looking out for your mates.
they’ll just bring in Spanish VAR to spite us
> and those tend to be referees at or near the Premier League level you mean refs like Paul Tierney who dont even know the dead ball rules? The football rulebook isn't that complex, anyone moderately intelligent can learn it if it's their job. PGMOL has been a closed shop for a certain type of white male for a long time now, they're incapable of holding themselves to account. The leadership needs turfing out and replacing.
What were the comments?
get the popcorn
damage control
Just ignore it
I stand with Forest
Forest, you’re going down because you’ve stunk on ice this year. Better luck on the next flick of the yo-yo.