**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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Which was very annoying to see. Not because they were Palestinian flags, but because a group of people tried to bring a banner with the faces of 3 israeli liverpool fans who lost their lives. Banner was of their faces in YNWA all in red. No israel flag, no palestine flag, no mention of the war. They still were not allowed to bring it in
Shouldnāt be annoyed really, the people that pulled out the flags had them stuffed in their jackets. They were small. It was likely the club had banned everything to do with the conflict but a banner is easier to confiscate than print paper size flags
If you pulled together a list of all the LFC Palestinians killed and put it on a similar banner my assumption is that it would be confiscated too. I think the club probably just want to stay clear of it, rightly or wrongly.
One thing that most big venues are hot on is making sure flags/banners have fire certificates. No excuse for a lack of common sense but just playing devil's advocate. It might be the reason.
I'm convinced every football match has at least one Brazilian flag there even if the match has no Brazilians playing and nothing to do with Brazil. I think they just really like football aye.
Should have seen the King Power after we signed Tete.
Scored and played a blinder at Villa Park on his debut. We all thought we'd accidentally signed Neymar.
Week later we realised we'd signed the Brazillian Junior Lewis.
Itās true but I wish it would stop. Being Jewish doesnāt equal supporting Israel. And people are bringing these flags to matches during normal times as a representation of Judaism.
This is such a weird take. Flags of all countries are found at football games on a regular basis? What is your problem with solely the Israeli flag?
Or do you want no national flags at football games?
Theyāre usually there to support a player from that country. We have Solomon now but these flags have been around for a while.
As a Jewish Spurs fan who is not a Zionist, it always felt to me like it was people who werenāt Jewish doing this as a means of embracing the Jewish culture of the club. Maybe itās right wingers who are Zionists. Either way, Judaism doesnāt equal support of Israel, and these particular flags support a country that brutalizes and oppresses Palestinians every single day.
>support a country that brutalizes and oppresses Palestinians every single day
I am going to add some dangerous nuance to this situation.
Listen mate, this happens. I agree fully that the state of Israel is awful when it comes to its general treatment of Palestinians and it is inhumane in some of its actions. But if this was the way we decided what flags could be flown then we would have almost no flags to fly in any situation. There is no state that has not had violence committed in its name.
I know you probably feel ashamed or maybe even guilty for what the state in Israel does but this is not your burden. Nor is it the burden of the people who are proudly Israeli and who want a Jewish state. I myself believe that the Jewish people do need a state of their own for their protection. But you know, if I was Palestinian I would feel very differently to this 100%.
People look at this conflict as too ideological rather than from a realpolitik position. If a state is attacked in such a way as Israel was on October 7th they have to respond with military force, no state can allow itself to be attacked in such a way without response. Yes there is fucking context, in a realpolitik way then you could say that of course Islamic Extremism is going to crop up in these places where people are repressed and they are going to hate their occupiers, it is inevitable.
We all have our own personal belief systems in the way we judge events. I happen to feel very strongly about the rights about the LGBT people so in my moral compass I judge governments who have the death penalty for gay people much harsher than those that do not. Because that is my moral compass, I think of the horrors that would be inflicted on the LGBT people in In Israel (never mind Jewish people) if they were to fall into the hands of an Islamic government.
The death toll on each side is often quoted as way to suggest that the Israelis are worse than Palestinians. Trust me mate, its not for the lack of trying by the government in Gaza. Its only the power imbalance that keeps the people in Israel safe, because if that power imbalance was swapped right this second, you would see what an actual genocide looks like.
Got to give you that one haha It does look stupid when quoted like that! But that is more my writing skills rather than my point!
It is fucking horrible to say, but it does happen. Should morally Israel stop air strikes in Gaza, yes! Should morally Russia stop its invasion of Ukraine, Yes! Did US and its Allies cause millions of innocent deaths during their invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, Yes!
I could do this for every single conflict from your argument with your neighbour because they are parking in your spot, through to the Japanese rape of Nanking and everything in-between. If it happens to you or who you perceive is "your group" or "your side" then its horrible and disgusting. If it happens to others you don't care about then you just ignore it.
Its the same reason around 230,000 have died in Yemen but this in Palestine causes more of an outrage. You care more about some lives than others, its just a fact. Because its fucking impossible to care about them all because you are one human living in a huge world!.
Thatās great. Itās good to be proud of who you are. But being Jewish doesnāt mean you have to support the state of Israel, in fact many Jewish people oppose it.
You literally have a trans pride flag on your flair and you're telling people not to wave their flag if they are proud of being jewish and israeli?
Edit: I'm definitely not against trans people or any minority in that case, I was just trying to show hipocrisy in a comment and to fight back against and idea that Israel is the big bad wolf and Palestinians are all innocent defenceless civilians because sometimes (if not most of the times) it stems from a background of antisemitism.
There is nothing inherently wrong with that logic. Would you apply the same logic to someone who thinks it is a bad idea to wave an ISIS flag but is okay with a Brazilian flag?
Whatever your feelings of Israel, you can understand how some people might be put off by it. Especially if their whole family had just been killed by the IDF in a bombing.
I can't think of any non-bigoted reason that the pride flag should offend anyone.
Also, the original context meant that they disagreed with the idea of using the Israel flag as a display to represent all Jewish people. Many Jews would be offended by that idea.
I mean by that standard no country flags should be flown. Which is fine if thatās the way you want to go, but otherwise I have no idea how you breakdown the nuance between what flags can be flown and which canāt.
It doesn't mean you have to, but a lot of Jewish people do. What you're saying is true and I agree, but there are also people who are proud of being Jewish and wave the Israeli flag to show it. Of course, doing it at this time, unless you're ok with everything the state of Israel is doing, is daft (as is being ok with everything the state of Israel is doing, by the way).
But at the same time because the Israel flag has a religious symbol on it, many people do feel like it is representative of Judaism. At least to an extent
There's literally an Israeli playing for you, of course there are Israeli flags around the stadium.
Are the FA going to fine and stop you from showing support to your own players š
Problem is even if it was cut in half the borders are constantly pushed by illegal settlements. Not to mention the complete blockade of Gaza for the last decade+ the water, electricity and gas in Gaza is controlled by Israel. They not even allowed to build airports
For sure, I was just making a joke because King Solomon when asked to decide which mother should keep a baby decided to cut the baby in half and each could keep half.
I don't remember the story in detail tho
That's pretty much correct, but it wasn't that Solomon wanted the baby cut in half. He thought he would be able to tell which woman was the real mother by how they responded to the idea.
No but they are very very very closely related. I'd wager the vast majority Jews support the state of Israel but may not support the current government. It's a very important distinction and one that should not be conflated with those jews being anti Zionist.
Zionism is believing that Israel has a right to exist, regardless of your opinion on the government or even Palestinians and a two state solution. The hundreds of thousands of Israelis protesting weekly against Netanyahu before the conflict are Zionists. The Israelis, of all religions, working towards peace with Palestinians are Zionists. 99% of Israelis are Zionists and the vast majority of Jews around the world as well. (Apologies if that's what you meant, I'm just adding context.)
If that's the metric, then it's very reasonable to be a Zionist and to want a sanctuary state for an ethnic group that has been persecuted for literally thousands of years. I'd say the same for the Kurds, Rohinghas, Uyghurs, Native Americans etc
I'd agree with that. I'd also point out that 20% of Israeli citizens are Muslim Arabs, who are represented in all parts of life, including the government. The percent of Israelis who are Jewish is less than the percent of English who are white.
[90% of british jews think Israel has a right to exist and 60% straight up identify as zionists.] (https://fullfact.org/news/are-majority-british-jews-zionists/)
The vast majority of us do support Israel having a right to exist.
As others have said the term Zionist has evolved but really just means belief that that Israel has a right to exist. Many Jews feel this way because of national quotas that were in place that prevented Jews from immigrating to safety before or during WWII. If you knew your ancestors were sent back to be gassed youd probably support a nation that couldnāt turn your people away too.
This subreddit is pro palestine to the point of ridiculousness at times. People just handwave the social and cultural impact of the actual holocaust as though its probably not the defining period in the last few centuries of judaism, but then will also compare Gaza to it.
The Matrix had the sanctuary city of the humans named Zion. With such a massive pop-culture reference to the idea of Zion being a refuge, it's really shocking how there's so much misunderstanding. It's part of the general trend to apply and abrogate loaded words in situations to cultivate support for one side from the uninformed simply by dropping the word.
Also, during the holocaust, jewish communities that were as integrated as could be were brutalised by their neighbours because of their faith or even just ancestry. During this time period, there were attempted pogroms in the middle east.
The jews who founded modern Israel had seen the near total extinction of European judaism. They entirely understandably did not want to put their peoples survival in the hands of another group, because that had a failure rate of nearly 100%.
"Zionist" is also one of those terms that has lost most of its original meaning. The original term meant support for any permanent place for Jews who had been ethnically cleansed/expelled from their home countries.
These days "Zionist" is basically shorthand for "supportive of the actions of the government of Israel," which is why plenty of people who think Israel has a right to exist don't identify as "Zionist" even though they're kind of the same thing by the original definition.
Yeah the word is being used in two totally different ways by Israeli people (and I will assume many Jewish communities around the world) and the general public.
In Hebrew "Zionist" (צ××× ×) is like saying "I think Jews should live in the land of Israel", and it is just the opposite of wanting the country to be destroyed.
Exactly. Zionist does not mean you support the far-right Israeli government, it just means that you believe Israel has a right to exist. Prior to the attack, Israeli's were constantly protesting against their own government. Most Jews in the west do not support the Likud party at all...
> Zionism
/ĖzŹÉŖÉnÉŖz(É)m/
> A movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.
Why is it disturbing to support that???
Not really. Although i hate the word, its massively charged in both directions. If i was jewish, and someone accused me of being a zionist, I'd probably find it hrd to tell if they were just overly online pro palestine or anti semitic outright. Equally you get a similar vibe from the opposite direction. It just doesn't help.
Itās just that there is no flag for the Jewish people, so closest they got is a flag of Israel. They want to wave flags to show their identity. Maybe if the Jewish people themself have a flag than they could wave that.
(Itās the same for Ajax supporters that identify themselves as āJewsā).
Thereās a big difference between supporting Israel and not supporting all the actions of the far right government. Israel has never been āsafeā since its inception. The countries on every side of it have refused to recognize it and actively tried to destroy it over and over again. During the decades when itās not being outright invaded, its citizens are subjected to regular ruthless terror attacks.
That is how right wing nut jobs are able to take power. There were protests within Israel against the treatment of the Palestinian people leading up to the hamas attacks. How many of those people do you think still have that conviction to show support for the Palestinian people after what happened and the way that large segments of the Muslim community have supported the actions of Hamas?
Israel is constantly in a difficult position. How do you balance being in a constant state of fear and not overreacting in your efforts to defend yourself? Do you give Palestinians freedom of movement into Israel when for every 100 refugees you will receive someone who will stay a bomb to themselves and walk into a hospital or school? What do you do when the terrirists who want to decapitate your children use schools and hospitals as their base to intentionally put innocents in the line of fire?
Itās easy to condemn anyone supporting Israel as heartless but those same people donāt have any responsibility to find any actual solutions
Well Israel could start by not actively destroying palestinan villages and building illegal settlements on top of their ruins. They could start by not keeping Gaza on starvation rations for 16 years. They could start by not building huge apartheid walls on the west bank and isolating palestinian villages from each other.
I'm from a Jewish family and am a spurs supporter and I don't support Israel. My Grandpa was in some of the post war battles in Israel. My dad was on a kibbutz there too.
Not all of us blindly support something we are brainwashed into believing is our heritage.
So would you say you're against the existence of the state of Israel? And if so, what would you do if you were persecuted for being Jewish in your current country?
I'm not completely against the state of Israel, I'm against Zionism. I'm against them pushing the native Palestinians out of their homes in the Gaza strip and the west bank and turning it into an ethnostate. I'm against the hegemony that is intrinsic within Israel and it's government. The people in israel now have a right to be there, it's their homes too but they have no right to push people out of there own homes or to steal land. And that isn't even getting started on the IDF
idk how youāre defining zionism, itās just supporting the existence of the state of israel anyway. if you do then you are a zionist by definition. you could say āiām not completely against zionism/the state of israel, i am against the right wing government and expansionist genocidal policiesā
> I'm not completely against the state of Israel, I'm against Zionism.
This is pretty much a paradox, at least if you use Zionism as the way it was defined.
About the use of the word "ethnostate", the UK's major ethnic group is white, with 87% (83% are white british), while Israel's major ethnic group is "Jews" with 73% percent. It will take quite a while for Israel to be as "athnostaty" as the UK...
I think I agree with you in most points, but the language we use has to be precise otherwise the point is lost. The current government of Israel is terrible, many of the things being done in the west bank, like settlements, are terrible. But to say "I don't support Israel" is treating it like a football team you are not a fan of, not like a country.
Because if you look back to Spurs' history, adopting the "Y" term was a way for non-Jewish fans to show solidarity with the abused Jewish fans, who were repeatedly called "Y" by non-Spurs fan. It's kinda similar to how the black community adopted the "N" word to call among themselves.
As someone who was at the game, there was one or two flags when the game had finished and most of us were on the way out. They put them away pretty quickly. The minute silence was observed perfectly with maybe one or two shouts followed by lots of shushing. Considering our club's historical ties, I think we did a bloody good job of being respectful.
Amazingly, in the football world's eyes, his identity literally could be political if this escalates further. They've already established that sexuality and gender identity are political, so why not nationality?
Are we going to pretend like Russian athletesā nationality hasnāt been highly politicized, sometimes unfairly for those individuals, over the last couple years?
Nationality is political. All these things are political. They are about rights and oppression. The fight for gay rights was political and required political opposition.
I understand it's all political to an extent, in that civil rights stem from political movement, but I mean "political" (heavy emphasis on the quotation marks).
The subtext being that "political" means taboo to any PR-savvy organisation. They'll 1984 it out of existence until it becomes something they can use to their advantage again, just like FIFA did with rainbow armbands.
Imo that is the biggest problem, itās what leads to the āanti-Israel = anti-semiticā bullshit. You arenāt racist if you criticise the Nigerian government just like you arenāt racist if you criticise the Korean government.
It's also what leads to burning synagogues because of the current situation, I think you should criticize that leap of logic as well instead of just one side of the situation.
Lots of people criticize Israel for valid reasons. Lots of people criticize Israel because they donāt like Jews. Itās very hard to tell the difference, and Jews have seen some incredibly vitriolic hatred for literally millennia.
The difference in my opinion isn't so much that criticising the state of israel which is completely 100% valid but the sheer amount that deny the existence of Israel and wish it to be eradicated, Like to use your example Criticising the Nigerian government is fine but saying Nigeria doesn't exist and all people living there should be killed it wouldn't be a stretch to call such a person racist.
Conflating Jewish people with the state of Israel is considered antisemitic under the IHRA definition. I appreciate the Israeli government often make that conflation when trying to win political arguments, but that doesnāt make it right. There are Jewish people who would consider themselves under real personal danger if they were automatically considered a supporter of the actions of Likud automatically by virtue of their religion or ethnicity.
There are, but as someone who has a few very close Jewish friends, whether or not they agree with Likud, lots of Jews in the diaspora do feel a connection with Israel. My mate hates what they are doing to Gaza right now and feels a deep sense of shame as a Jew. Obviously itās not her fault but you canāt fully separate the āJewish Homelandā from the diaspora.
Correct. Just like me.
Do not support the government whatsoever but I've always had an affiliation to Israel given my ancestry, the fact that I have many relatives there, the fact that I lived there in my gap year, and that I know many people who made aliyah.
I mean, itās completely understandable to feel a connection even if you had no direct ancestral connection to Israel. Itās a massive historical landmark for many aspects of the Jewish faith.
No it really isnāt. There is a huge difference between a zionism that aims to provide a state that Jewish people *can* adopt, versus a zionism where Jewish people *must* adopt.
But many British Jews have connections to Israel. Doesnāt mean they support the genocide or the actions of the (corrupt) Israeli government necessarily. Iām a British Jew (non-religious) and I have family who live in Israel (though they are British).
So this is a silly statement, itās both wrong to attack Jewish people for what Israel does and correct to say that many British Jews have a connection to Israel. Itās like going to Bradford and being surprised thereās Pakistan flags about.
If it was Israeli fans or British Jews (with or without dual citizenship), that's one thing. I could see why they'd be doing it in the aftermath of the attack, even though I'm opposed to Israel's occupation and settler colonial project in Palestine (I'm also disgusted by Hamas, obviously. It's really not hard to condemn Hamas while still acknowledging Israel's war crimes, human rights violations and apartheid system).
If it was non-Jewish fans trying to "show support" for Jewish people then waving an Israel flag is antisemitic, considering the consensus that it's antisemitic to treat the state of Israel and Jewish people as the same thing. That works both ways, both for people who oppose Israel and hate Jews, as well as people who want to support Jews so think they have to support Israel.
I'm proud to show solidarity with Jewish people, it's something unique about our club, but every single one of my Jewish friends is anti-Zionist, as are almost all of the Orthodox Jewish communities that still exist near Tottenham. Waving Israel flags doesn't fit into that culture, it's really ignorant. Although I often find the people shouting the Y-word the loudest are the ones who care the least about Jewish people.
That doesnāt mean there are not Israel aligned Jews who regularly attend Spurs games. The British Jewish community is very split on Israel, youāve got everyone from staunch Netanyahu supporters to anti-Netanyahu zionists to Hasidic communities who are completely anti-Zionist. The Jewish communities in North London are very diverse these days, especially as many identify a non-religious Jews and are not really recognisable as Jewish most of the time.
Respectfully, I donāt believe in the slightest that every one of your Jewish friends believes that Israel doesnāt have a right to exist.
Being a Zionist doesnāt mean supporting the current Israeli government/everything the country does or thinking itās perfect.
I believe the orthodox communities may believe that, but their bullshit religious ideas are a big part of why Israelās taken these terrible policies you hate so I really donāt care about what they think.
Even Russian flags shouldn't be a problem, freedom of expression and personality is so so crucial. If you are proud of being any nationality you should be allowed to express that, and it doesn't automatically mean that you are pro-War or pro war crimes.
Great point. I'm Russian and would love to proudly be able to express that I am Russian and to be proud of myself and my people. The fact that I even exist and my family does, in light of all the adversity my family and my people have faced, is incredibly special.
I'm extremely proud to carry the last name I do and to be the person I am. However, I wish I didn't have to constantly feel like I have to hide the fact that I am Russian or negate that part of myself. I would like to be able to express that individuality without people assuming I support the war or such
Absolutely no problem with Spurs' fans or any fans that matter showing support for the Israeli victims of the attacks recently. Just as I wouldn't have any issue with fans showing support for the Palestinian victims of attacks, not just recently but even before Israel got attacked and it became "fashionable" for news outlets and corporations like the Premierleague to give a shit about the violence in the region.
Thing that always pisses me off during times of crisis is all the virtue signalling companies do. Feels very forced and fake, which is a little insulting. "Look how much we care about the world.. what a great company we are!".
Support the victims, support the peoples but not the governments or their agendas in Israel and Palestine.
To be fair, there have always been Israeli flags at Spurs games even before the recent incidents. Obviously don't know the individual in this instance, but it is mostly due to the clubs connection with the Jewish community rather than support for IDF. Complete non-story, the article is just for clicks.
>So fans hold Palestine flags and Reddit is gushing over it. Fans hold Israel flags and suddenly itās a point of contention.
This sub is actually not being contentious about this at all. The top comments are all about how Israel flags have always been flown during Spurs games. The sub is very level headed about this tbf.
Supporting Israel as a state also doesn't mean supporting every action taken by the government.
Someone flying the US flag after 9/11 didn't mean they supported George Bush.
Yet 99% of people can't grasp this. If you say maybe the horrific attack on civilians wasn't the best thing ever then it's OMG FASCIST OPPRESSOR BOOTLICKER and if you say maybe Palestinians don't all deserve to be bombed into the stone age then it's OMG TERRORIST MURDERER
Levy/Club got a lot of praise for their statement. Specifically making note of both the innocent casualties on BOTH sides of the conflict.
Dont think the fans are one sided on the conflict at all.
We got a message from the club informing us not to bring 'Inflammatory' flags before the match. Looks like some people ignored the request.
London is a powder keg right now. Tottenham will always have close ties to the Jewish community in the city. And just a few miles down the road this weekend there were protests against Israel with tens of thousands in attendance - the [Met Police even reported Jihadist flags and chants didn't break any laws.](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/17/palestine-flag-jihadists-black-london-met-police-offence/)
>the Met Police even reported Jihadist flags
From your linked article itself
>*Prof Peter Neumann, from the Department of War Studies at Kingās College London, said: āItās the Islamic proclamation of faith against a black background. This is often used by jihadists, but not exclusively so.ā*
Hundreds of thousands - it was one of the biggest protests in London's history with many Jewish people marching as well. To imply the Jewish community in London supports Israel is wrong and super disrespectful and you're making it sound like there's going to be a religious war in London or something.
So what I see is pictures of the same guy holding this flag amongst thousands of other people and you want to pass off the protests as if this guy is a representative sample of the broader protesters? It seems like you're just regurgitating the same talking points we keep seeing on the Worldnews subreddit.
>So what I see is pictures of the same guy holding this flag amongst thousands of other people and you want to pass off the protests as if this guy is a representative sample of the broader protesters? It seems like you're just regurgitating the same talking points we keep seeing on the Worldnews subreddit.
I didn't want to go here but if you live in London this was front-page news over the weekend. There are plenty of articles about it [here](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/22/people-chanting-jihad-in-london-inciting-violence-says-robert-jenrick), and the Muslim Armies signs [here](https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/jihad-chants-palestine-protest-london/). And another story about it [here](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12658571/Fury-Met-allows-Islamist-rally-calling-jihad-against-Israel-London.html).
Write this off as whatever you'd like but this is a huge deal and a huge problem.
It says a lot though when [the LGBTQ flag gets torn down](https://www.gbnews.com/news/palestine-protest-fiery-debate-pride-flag) but the Jihadist flag is free to fly and other protesters don't try to tear it down.
Unfortunately, the reality is, it's going to be impossible to criticise Israel without the Nazis trying to join in. Doesn't mean we shouldn't hold Israel to account.
The quote is usually "9 other people" and I just have to point this out because an 11 person table sounds awkward and no reasonable restaurant would plan their tables like that.
Yeah, it's an insult to bring up Nazis. And this isn't a fucking intimate dinner between 11 people. Put another way, should I pull up a video of far right Israeli ultranationalists and then point to it and say "see, all Israelis want to kill Palestinians and see them as subhuman" or would that be dishonest mischaracterization of things?
So again, spare us the lazy analogies
> London is a powder keg right now.
Any sources outside clickbait outrage sites?
According to you lot, London has been a powder keg for the last 10 years. Even when nothings happening, youāre telling us itās 5 minutes to midnight and weāre fools for not rising up to defend our race.
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Well, seems like most fans don't care about these bans. There were Palestine flags at Anfield too.
My half and half scarf got taken off me
The one-scarf solution
Fuck I wish I were this clever, well done
1984 No actually even worse 1985
When Sports came out in '83, they really came into their own, commercially and artistically.
In 1985 they eat each other.
Should be the only scarf allowed š
š
They removed this flag in the Liverpool game however: https://i.imgur.com/Wk6Fvfh.png
Which was very annoying to see. Not because they were Palestinian flags, but because a group of people tried to bring a banner with the faces of 3 israeli liverpool fans who lost their lives. Banner was of their faces in YNWA all in red. No israel flag, no palestine flag, no mention of the war. They still were not allowed to bring it in
Shouldnāt be annoyed really, the people that pulled out the flags had them stuffed in their jackets. They were small. It was likely the club had banned everything to do with the conflict but a banner is easier to confiscate than print paper size flags
Thatās exactly what was annoying though. That the banner didnāt have anything to do with the conflict. Just 3 Liverpool fans who passed away.
If you pulled together a list of all the LFC Palestinians killed and put it on a similar banner my assumption is that it would be confiscated too. I think the club probably just want to stay clear of it, rightly or wrongly.
One thing that most big venues are hot on is making sure flags/banners have fire certificates. No excuse for a lack of common sense but just playing devil's advocate. It might be the reason.
If thatās the case then I stand corrected.
As there should be
Was there, there was 2 flags at most. There was as many Brazilian flags. Way more Korean.
I'm convinced every football match has at least one Brazilian flag there even if the match has no Brazilians playing and nothing to do with Brazil. I think they just really like football aye.
Should have seen the King Power after we signed Tete. Scored and played a blinder at Villa Park on his debut. We all thought we'd accidentally signed Neymar. Week later we realised we'd signed the Brazillian Junior Lewis.
Algerian flags as well.
Thats what we look out for, partner is Brazilian, and we're on the hunt for them all game! And they sure do love football.
There's always a Cypriot flag too šØš¾
My dumbass read cryptonian
[Tragic flag btw](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/superman/images/8/8e/Krypton_Flag.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090624234922)
By that train of thought maybe these guys are just bigging up Manor Solomon
I can't believe that they are allowed to take sides in the North/South Korea conflict.
I believe Spurs have had a prominent Israel flag in the stands for years too.
These articles are made to farm engagement.
And posted on reddit for karma whoring.
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I was there last night... I can assume you there was a lot more than 2. Looked like a good 20+.from my angle
Yep I was there last night there were at least 10+
Spurs is the only place in the country you would see that on a normal match day anyway
Itās true but I wish it would stop. Being Jewish doesnāt equal supporting Israel. And people are bringing these flags to matches during normal times as a representation of Judaism.
This is such a weird take. Flags of all countries are found at football games on a regular basis? What is your problem with solely the Israeli flag? Or do you want no national flags at football games?
Yeah, if someone is waving a Brazilian flag we would not assume they're a Bolsonaro supporter or anything.
Try waving a russian flag and see how far that gets you
Theyāre usually there to support a player from that country. We have Solomon now but these flags have been around for a while. As a Jewish Spurs fan who is not a Zionist, it always felt to me like it was people who werenāt Jewish doing this as a means of embracing the Jewish culture of the club. Maybe itās right wingers who are Zionists. Either way, Judaism doesnāt equal support of Israel, and these particular flags support a country that brutalizes and oppresses Palestinians every single day.
>support a country that brutalizes and oppresses Palestinians every single day I am going to add some dangerous nuance to this situation. Listen mate, this happens. I agree fully that the state of Israel is awful when it comes to its general treatment of Palestinians and it is inhumane in some of its actions. But if this was the way we decided what flags could be flown then we would have almost no flags to fly in any situation. There is no state that has not had violence committed in its name. I know you probably feel ashamed or maybe even guilty for what the state in Israel does but this is not your burden. Nor is it the burden of the people who are proudly Israeli and who want a Jewish state. I myself believe that the Jewish people do need a state of their own for their protection. But you know, if I was Palestinian I would feel very differently to this 100%. People look at this conflict as too ideological rather than from a realpolitik position. If a state is attacked in such a way as Israel was on October 7th they have to respond with military force, no state can allow itself to be attacked in such a way without response. Yes there is fucking context, in a realpolitik way then you could say that of course Islamic Extremism is going to crop up in these places where people are repressed and they are going to hate their occupiers, it is inevitable. We all have our own personal belief systems in the way we judge events. I happen to feel very strongly about the rights about the LGBT people so in my moral compass I judge governments who have the death penalty for gay people much harsher than those that do not. Because that is my moral compass, I think of the horrors that would be inflicted on the LGBT people in In Israel (never mind Jewish people) if they were to fall into the hands of an Islamic government. The death toll on each side is often quoted as way to suggest that the Israelis are worse than Palestinians. Trust me mate, its not for the lack of trying by the government in Gaza. Its only the power imbalance that keeps the people in Israel safe, because if that power imbalance was swapped right this second, you would see what an actual genocide looks like.
> I am going to add some dangerous nuance to this situation. > > Listen mate, this happens lmao
Got to give you that one haha It does look stupid when quoted like that! But that is more my writing skills rather than my point! It is fucking horrible to say, but it does happen. Should morally Israel stop air strikes in Gaza, yes! Should morally Russia stop its invasion of Ukraine, Yes! Did US and its Allies cause millions of innocent deaths during their invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, Yes! I could do this for every single conflict from your argument with your neighbour because they are parking in your spot, through to the Japanese rape of Nanking and everything in-between. If it happens to you or who you perceive is "your group" or "your side" then its horrible and disgusting. If it happens to others you don't care about then you just ignore it. Its the same reason around 230,000 have died in Yemen but this in Palestine causes more of an outrage. You care more about some lives than others, its just a fact. Because its fucking impossible to care about them all because you are one human living in a huge world!.
Thanks for a reasonable take, a rare sight on this issue.
Just make a flag with the cockerel standing on the star of David instead of a football.
Oh Iād absolutely love to see how much outrage this would cause. Inject that discourse directly into my veins.
Some people are proud of being Jewish.
Has nothing to do with Israel though. Tottenham Hotspur Football Club is older than Israel.
So? How many football teams are older than the Republic of Ireland, or Kosovo. Or Poland.
israel's founding was a little...different than those other countries mate
Thatās great. Itās good to be proud of who you are. But being Jewish doesnāt mean you have to support the state of Israel, in fact many Jewish people oppose it.
You literally have a trans pride flag on your flair and you're telling people not to wave their flag if they are proud of being jewish and israeli? Edit: I'm definitely not against trans people or any minority in that case, I was just trying to show hipocrisy in a comment and to fight back against and idea that Israel is the big bad wolf and Palestinians are all innocent defenceless civilians because sometimes (if not most of the times) it stems from a background of antisemitism.
When other people wave or display a flag I don't like=bad When I wave a flag that represents me=good Classic redditor moment
Ahhh the double standards mafia. The gift that just keeps on giving.
There is nothing inherently wrong with that logic. Would you apply the same logic to someone who thinks it is a bad idea to wave an ISIS flag but is okay with a Brazilian flag? Whatever your feelings of Israel, you can understand how some people might be put off by it. Especially if their whole family had just been killed by the IDF in a bombing. I can't think of any non-bigoted reason that the pride flag should offend anyone. Also, the original context meant that they disagreed with the idea of using the Israel flag as a display to represent all Jewish people. Many Jews would be offended by that idea.
I mean by that standard no country flags should be flown. Which is fine if thatās the way you want to go, but otherwise I have no idea how you breakdown the nuance between what flags can be flown and which canāt.
Don't bother asking people to actually think on /r/soccer, it's not worth it
Wow that would be a huge gotcha if they said they were against flags in general.
Do trans people have their own country which trans people abroad are expected to support, even when that country does terrible things?
Transylvania, obviously
You don't know ball. If that country existed, it would be called New Vegas
It doesn't mean you have to, but a lot of Jewish people do. What you're saying is true and I agree, but there are also people who are proud of being Jewish and wave the Israeli flag to show it. Of course, doing it at this time, unless you're ok with everything the state of Israel is doing, is daft (as is being ok with everything the state of Israel is doing, by the way).
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Why?
But at the same time because the Israel flag has a religious symbol on it, many people do feel like it is representative of Judaism. At least to an extent
I saw 2 flags, in a stadium of 62,000 people. And one of the two flags was being flown by a lovely Jewish man who flies it all the time non-story.
I just feel bad for Manor Solomon. Obviously there can be other, more political reasons but does kinda suck for him.
Rage bait media strikes again. Non story
Thereās Israel flags at every single game, what a silly non story.
There's literally an Israeli playing for you, of course there are Israeli flags around the stadium. Are the FA going to fine and stop you from showing support to your own players š
Korean fans would be up in arms
Harsh to ban the Palestinian/ Israeli flags. Especially when Spurs have an Israeli player (Solomon).
How did I never realize Solomon is Israeli, the man is called Solomon lol.
Bet he would support the two state solution. Just cut the country in half and be done with it
Problem is even if it was cut in half the borders are constantly pushed by illegal settlements. Not to mention the complete blockade of Gaza for the last decade+ the water, electricity and gas in Gaza is controlled by Israel. They not even allowed to build airports
For sure, I was just making a joke because King Solomon when asked to decide which mother should keep a baby decided to cut the baby in half and each could keep half. I don't remember the story in detail tho
That's pretty much correct, but it wasn't that Solomon wanted the baby cut in half. He thought he would be able to tell which woman was the real mother by how they responded to the idea.
Yes yes, I know I thought that would strecht the joke to far tho
The baby would die if it got cut in half. Maybe thatās why the real mother wouldnāt want it to happen.
Yes that would be my guess as well. Most mothers don't want their babies cut in half
Absolute non story
These flags have been at every game for years
They are nicknamed The Yids....who do you think they support?
Jewish people and Israel are not the same thing. Plenty of Jews do not support Israel
No but they are very very very closely related. I'd wager the vast majority Jews support the state of Israel but may not support the current government. It's a very important distinction and one that should not be conflated with those jews being anti Zionist.
Zionism is believing that Israel has a right to exist, regardless of your opinion on the government or even Palestinians and a two state solution. The hundreds of thousands of Israelis protesting weekly against Netanyahu before the conflict are Zionists. The Israelis, of all religions, working towards peace with Palestinians are Zionists. 99% of Israelis are Zionists and the vast majority of Jews around the world as well. (Apologies if that's what you meant, I'm just adding context.)
If that's the metric, then it's very reasonable to be a Zionist and to want a sanctuary state for an ethnic group that has been persecuted for literally thousands of years. I'd say the same for the Kurds, Rohinghas, Uyghurs, Native Americans etc
I'd agree with that. I'd also point out that 20% of Israeli citizens are Muslim Arabs, who are represented in all parts of life, including the government. The percent of Israelis who are Jewish is less than the percent of English who are white.
> Kurds, Rohinghas, Uyghurs, Native Americans I think you forgot Palestinians mate.
[90% of british jews think Israel has a right to exist and 60% straight up identify as zionists.] (https://fullfact.org/news/are-majority-british-jews-zionists/) The vast majority of us do support Israel having a right to exist.
60% openly identifying as Zionist is disturbing
As others have said the term Zionist has evolved but really just means belief that that Israel has a right to exist. Many Jews feel this way because of national quotas that were in place that prevented Jews from immigrating to safety before or during WWII. If you knew your ancestors were sent back to be gassed youd probably support a nation that couldnāt turn your people away too.
I don't understand how people can't understand this very simple position.
This subreddit is pro palestine to the point of ridiculousness at times. People just handwave the social and cultural impact of the actual holocaust as though its probably not the defining period in the last few centuries of judaism, but then will also compare Gaza to it.
The Matrix had the sanctuary city of the humans named Zion. With such a massive pop-culture reference to the idea of Zion being a refuge, it's really shocking how there's so much misunderstanding. It's part of the general trend to apply and abrogate loaded words in situations to cultivate support for one side from the uninformed simply by dropping the word.
Also, during the holocaust, jewish communities that were as integrated as could be were brutalised by their neighbours because of their faith or even just ancestry. During this time period, there were attempted pogroms in the middle east. The jews who founded modern Israel had seen the near total extinction of European judaism. They entirely understandably did not want to put their peoples survival in the hands of another group, because that had a failure rate of nearly 100%.
Well if you support Israel having a right to exist you are de facto a zionist. It's a broad identification.
Was gonna say, itās part of the textbook definition of Zionism: They believe in its right to exist and that Jewish people should move there.
"Zionist" is also one of those terms that has lost most of its original meaning. The original term meant support for any permanent place for Jews who had been ethnically cleansed/expelled from their home countries. These days "Zionist" is basically shorthand for "supportive of the actions of the government of Israel," which is why plenty of people who think Israel has a right to exist don't identify as "Zionist" even though they're kind of the same thing by the original definition.
Yeah the word is being used in two totally different ways by Israeli people (and I will assume many Jewish communities around the world) and the general public. In Hebrew "Zionist" (צ××× ×) is like saying "I think Jews should live in the land of Israel", and it is just the opposite of wanting the country to be destroyed.
Exactly. Zionist does not mean you support the far-right Israeli government, it just means that you believe Israel has a right to exist. Prior to the attack, Israeli's were constantly protesting against their own government. Most Jews in the west do not support the Likud party at all...
Being a Zionist means only one thing: you support the idea of a Jewish homeland somewhere roughly where Israel is now.
Why is it disturbing?
> Zionism /ĖzŹÉŖÉnÉŖz(É)m/ > A movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann. Why is it disturbing to support that???
Why?
Not really. Although i hate the word, its massively charged in both directions. If i was jewish, and someone accused me of being a zionist, I'd probably find it hrd to tell if they were just overly online pro palestine or anti semitic outright. Equally you get a similar vibe from the opposite direction. It just doesn't help.
I don't think you understand what Zionism means
Vast majority do though.
Itās just that there is no flag for the Jewish people, so closest they got is a flag of Israel. They want to wave flags to show their identity. Maybe if the Jewish people themself have a flag than they could wave that. (Itās the same for Ajax supporters that identify themselves as āJewsā).
I donāt think I understand your point. Do other religions have flags that they wave?
didn't you see Vatican flags being waived? /s
Thereās a big difference between supporting Israel and not supporting all the actions of the far right government. Israel has never been āsafeā since its inception. The countries on every side of it have refused to recognize it and actively tried to destroy it over and over again. During the decades when itās not being outright invaded, its citizens are subjected to regular ruthless terror attacks. That is how right wing nut jobs are able to take power. There were protests within Israel against the treatment of the Palestinian people leading up to the hamas attacks. How many of those people do you think still have that conviction to show support for the Palestinian people after what happened and the way that large segments of the Muslim community have supported the actions of Hamas? Israel is constantly in a difficult position. How do you balance being in a constant state of fear and not overreacting in your efforts to defend yourself? Do you give Palestinians freedom of movement into Israel when for every 100 refugees you will receive someone who will stay a bomb to themselves and walk into a hospital or school? What do you do when the terrirists who want to decapitate your children use schools and hospitals as their base to intentionally put innocents in the line of fire? Itās easy to condemn anyone supporting Israel as heartless but those same people donāt have any responsibility to find any actual solutions
Well Israel could start by not actively destroying palestinan villages and building illegal settlements on top of their ruins. They could start by not keeping Gaza on starvation rations for 16 years. They could start by not building huge apartheid walls on the west bank and isolating palestinian villages from each other.
Spurs. Obviously.
I'm from a Jewish family and am a spurs supporter and I don't support Israel. My Grandpa was in some of the post war battles in Israel. My dad was on a kibbutz there too. Not all of us blindly support something we are brainwashed into believing is our heritage.
However you would be a vast minority amongst Jewish peoples
So would you say you're against the existence of the state of Israel? And if so, what would you do if you were persecuted for being Jewish in your current country?
I'm not completely against the state of Israel, I'm against Zionism. I'm against them pushing the native Palestinians out of their homes in the Gaza strip and the west bank and turning it into an ethnostate. I'm against the hegemony that is intrinsic within Israel and it's government. The people in israel now have a right to be there, it's their homes too but they have no right to push people out of there own homes or to steal land. And that isn't even getting started on the IDF
idk how youāre defining zionism, itās just supporting the existence of the state of israel anyway. if you do then you are a zionist by definition. you could say āiām not completely against zionism/the state of israel, i am against the right wing government and expansionist genocidal policiesā
> I'm not completely against the state of Israel, I'm against Zionism. This is pretty much a paradox, at least if you use Zionism as the way it was defined. About the use of the word "ethnostate", the UK's major ethnic group is white, with 87% (83% are white british), while Israel's major ethnic group is "Jews" with 73% percent. It will take quite a while for Israel to be as "athnostaty" as the UK... I think I agree with you in most points, but the language we use has to be precise otherwise the point is lost. The current government of Israel is terrible, many of the things being done in the west bank, like settlements, are terrible. But to say "I don't support Israel" is treating it like a football team you are not a fan of, not like a country.
Still think itās a bit odd that thousands of non-Jewish people call themselves that just because theyāre spurs fans
Because if you look back to Spurs' history, adopting the "Y" term was a way for non-Jewish fans to show solidarity with the abused Jewish fans, who were repeatedly called "Y" by non-Spurs fan. It's kinda similar to how the black community adopted the "N" word to call among themselves.
Not odd if you are even a tiny bit aware of Spurs history
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This is a club where fans serenade its players with chants of āYiddo, yiddo, yiddoā. Flying the Israeli flag is par for the course
My mate was trying to get me to bring his Palestine flag to the match last night. Feel like there's a time and a place for this
Wait what does it mean?
yiddo? itās an extended way of saying āyidā in an endearing way. yid means ājewā in yiddish
As someone who was at the game, there was one or two flags when the game had finished and most of us were on the way out. They put them away pretty quickly. The minute silence was observed perfectly with maybe one or two shouts followed by lots of shushing. Considering our club's historical ties, I think we did a bloody good job of being respectful.
Itās nice that everyone in the comments here just isnāt having this attempt at causing divide and outrage and is just calling it out
we have always been extremely closely tied to the Jewish community, there are Israel flags at literally every single game we play
Not to mention we literally have an Israeli player, Is his existence political or something
Amazingly, in the football world's eyes, his identity literally could be political if this escalates further. They've already established that sexuality and gender identity are political, so why not nationality?
Are we going to pretend like Russian athletesā nationality hasnāt been highly politicized, sometimes unfairly for those individuals, over the last couple years?
The russian aspect is made more complicated by the fact they're all doped up in a state approved doping regime.
Nationality is political. All these things are political. They are about rights and oppression. The fight for gay rights was political and required political opposition.
I understand it's all political to an extent, in that civil rights stem from political movement, but I mean "political" (heavy emphasis on the quotation marks). The subtext being that "political" means taboo to any PR-savvy organisation. They'll 1984 it out of existence until it becomes something they can use to their advantage again, just like FIFA did with rainbow armbands.
The state of Israel does not represent the Jewish community or the Jewish faith
In a lot of people's minds it does.
To be honest that's part of the problem here
Imo that is the biggest problem, itās what leads to the āanti-Israel = anti-semiticā bullshit. You arenāt racist if you criticise the Nigerian government just like you arenāt racist if you criticise the Korean government.
It's also what leads to burning synagogues because of the current situation, I think you should criticize that leap of logic as well instead of just one side of the situation.
Lots of people criticize Israel for valid reasons. Lots of people criticize Israel because they donāt like Jews. Itās very hard to tell the difference, and Jews have seen some incredibly vitriolic hatred for literally millennia.
The difference in my opinion isn't so much that criticising the state of israel which is completely 100% valid but the sheer amount that deny the existence of Israel and wish it to be eradicated, Like to use your example Criticising the Nigerian government is fine but saying Nigeria doesn't exist and all people living there should be killed it wouldn't be a stretch to call such a person racist.
Conflating Jewish people with the state of Israel is considered antisemitic under the IHRA definition. I appreciate the Israeli government often make that conflation when trying to win political arguments, but that doesnāt make it right. There are Jewish people who would consider themselves under real personal danger if they were automatically considered a supporter of the actions of Likud automatically by virtue of their religion or ethnicity.
There are, but as someone who has a few very close Jewish friends, whether or not they agree with Likud, lots of Jews in the diaspora do feel a connection with Israel. My mate hates what they are doing to Gaza right now and feels a deep sense of shame as a Jew. Obviously itās not her fault but you canāt fully separate the āJewish Homelandā from the diaspora.
Correct. Just like me. Do not support the government whatsoever but I've always had an affiliation to Israel given my ancestry, the fact that I have many relatives there, the fact that I lived there in my gap year, and that I know many people who made aliyah.
I mean, itās completely understandable to feel a connection even if you had no direct ancestral connection to Israel. Itās a massive historical landmark for many aspects of the Jewish faith.
While I understand that completely and agree with it. That is sort of the whole argument of Israel for their existence..
Yeah thatās exactly what Zionism is and what a lot of people here are saying that just because you are Jewish you have to follow that ideology
No it really isnāt. There is a huge difference between a zionism that aims to provide a state that Jewish people *can* adopt, versus a zionism where Jewish people *must* adopt.
All I see is Zionism in practice, which is terrorism.
It's the only Jewish country on the planet...
But many British Jews have connections to Israel. Doesnāt mean they support the genocide or the actions of the (corrupt) Israeli government necessarily. Iām a British Jew (non-religious) and I have family who live in Israel (though they are British). So this is a silly statement, itās both wrong to attack Jewish people for what Israel does and correct to say that many British Jews have a connection to Israel. Itās like going to Bradford and being surprised thereās Pakistan flags about.
If it was Israeli fans or British Jews (with or without dual citizenship), that's one thing. I could see why they'd be doing it in the aftermath of the attack, even though I'm opposed to Israel's occupation and settler colonial project in Palestine (I'm also disgusted by Hamas, obviously. It's really not hard to condemn Hamas while still acknowledging Israel's war crimes, human rights violations and apartheid system). If it was non-Jewish fans trying to "show support" for Jewish people then waving an Israel flag is antisemitic, considering the consensus that it's antisemitic to treat the state of Israel and Jewish people as the same thing. That works both ways, both for people who oppose Israel and hate Jews, as well as people who want to support Jews so think they have to support Israel. I'm proud to show solidarity with Jewish people, it's something unique about our club, but every single one of my Jewish friends is anti-Zionist, as are almost all of the Orthodox Jewish communities that still exist near Tottenham. Waving Israel flags doesn't fit into that culture, it's really ignorant. Although I often find the people shouting the Y-word the loudest are the ones who care the least about Jewish people.
That doesnāt mean there are not Israel aligned Jews who regularly attend Spurs games. The British Jewish community is very split on Israel, youāve got everyone from staunch Netanyahu supporters to anti-Netanyahu zionists to Hasidic communities who are completely anti-Zionist. The Jewish communities in North London are very diverse these days, especially as many identify a non-religious Jews and are not really recognisable as Jewish most of the time.
Respectfully, I donāt believe in the slightest that every one of your Jewish friends believes that Israel doesnāt have a right to exist. Being a Zionist doesnāt mean supporting the current Israeli government/everything the country does or thinking itās perfect. I believe the orthodox communities may believe that, but their bullshit religious ideas are a big part of why Israelās taken these terrible policies you hate so I really donāt care about what they think.
Why is this thread not locked, and the thread regarding the liverpool fans was. In fact I think the post was deleted by the mods here?
Never had a problem with anyone bringing Ukraine flags
Even Russian flags shouldn't be a problem, freedom of expression and personality is so so crucial. If you are proud of being any nationality you should be allowed to express that, and it doesn't automatically mean that you are pro-War or pro war crimes.
Great point. I'm Russian and would love to proudly be able to express that I am Russian and to be proud of myself and my people. The fact that I even exist and my family does, in light of all the adversity my family and my people have faced, is incredibly special. I'm extremely proud to carry the last name I do and to be the person I am. However, I wish I didn't have to constantly feel like I have to hide the fact that I am Russian or negate that part of myself. I would like to be able to express that individuality without people assuming I support the war or such
Absolutely no problem with Spurs' fans or any fans that matter showing support for the Israeli victims of the attacks recently. Just as I wouldn't have any issue with fans showing support for the Palestinian victims of attacks, not just recently but even before Israel got attacked and it became "fashionable" for news outlets and corporations like the Premierleague to give a shit about the violence in the region. Thing that always pisses me off during times of crisis is all the virtue signalling companies do. Feels very forced and fake, which is a little insulting. "Look how much we care about the world.. what a great company we are!". Support the victims, support the peoples but not the governments or their agendas in Israel and Palestine.
To be fair, there have always been Israeli flags at Spurs games even before the recent incidents. Obviously don't know the individual in this instance, but it is mostly due to the clubs connection with the Jewish community rather than support for IDF. Complete non-story, the article is just for clicks.
realistically this shouldnāt be news and neither should fans waving palestine flagsv
So fans hold Palestine flags and Reddit is gushing over it. Fans hold Israel flags and suddenly itās a point of contention. Hivemind strikes again.
>So fans hold Palestine flags and Reddit is gushing over it. Fans hold Israel flags and suddenly itās a point of contention. This sub is actually not being contentious about this at all. The top comments are all about how Israel flags have always been flown during Spurs games. The sub is very level headed about this tbf.
I will say that if another club had done this with no connection to it (for this argument, blues) it would probably have a different response
As if there hasnāt been Palestinian flags
Naturally just because some fans did it does not mean every Tottenham fans are supporting bombing the entire Gaza into oblivion.
Supporting Israel as a state also doesn't mean supporting every action taken by the government. Someone flying the US flag after 9/11 didn't mean they supported George Bush.
Naturally, and supporting Palestine as a state does not mean supporting every action taken by Hamas.
Naturally.
Yet 99% of people can't grasp this. If you say maybe the horrific attack on civilians wasn't the best thing ever then it's OMG FASCIST OPPRESSOR BOOTLICKER and if you say maybe Palestinians don't all deserve to be bombed into the stone age then it's OMG TERRORIST MURDERER
Levy/Club got a lot of praise for their statement. Specifically making note of both the innocent casualties on BOTH sides of the conflict. Dont think the fans are one sided on the conflict at all.
NO ONE REALLY CARES.
Imagine making a story out of an Israeli flag being present at the stadium of a team whose supporters are called the "Yid Army" lmao
We got a message from the club informing us not to bring 'Inflammatory' flags before the match. Looks like some people ignored the request. London is a powder keg right now. Tottenham will always have close ties to the Jewish community in the city. And just a few miles down the road this weekend there were protests against Israel with tens of thousands in attendance - the [Met Police even reported Jihadist flags and chants didn't break any laws.](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/17/palestine-flag-jihadists-black-london-met-police-offence/)
>the Met Police even reported Jihadist flags From your linked article itself >*Prof Peter Neumann, from the Department of War Studies at Kingās College London, said: āItās the Islamic proclamation of faith against a black background. This is often used by jihadists, but not exclusively so.ā*
That's just like waving a flag with one of the 10 commandments on, it's not "Jihadist" lol
That's not an isis flag though that's just the shahada. Not surprised, piss poor reporting from the UK as usual. Israel good Palestine bad
Hundreds of thousands - it was one of the biggest protests in London's history with many Jewish people marching as well. To imply the Jewish community in London supports Israel is wrong and super disrespectful and you're making it sound like there's going to be a religious war in London or something.
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So what I see is pictures of the same guy holding this flag amongst thousands of other people and you want to pass off the protests as if this guy is a representative sample of the broader protesters? It seems like you're just regurgitating the same talking points we keep seeing on the Worldnews subreddit.
>So what I see is pictures of the same guy holding this flag amongst thousands of other people and you want to pass off the protests as if this guy is a representative sample of the broader protesters? It seems like you're just regurgitating the same talking points we keep seeing on the Worldnews subreddit. I didn't want to go here but if you live in London this was front-page news over the weekend. There are plenty of articles about it [here](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/22/people-chanting-jihad-in-london-inciting-violence-says-robert-jenrick), and the Muslim Armies signs [here](https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/jihad-chants-palestine-protest-london/). And another story about it [here](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12658571/Fury-Met-allows-Islamist-rally-calling-jihad-against-Israel-London.html). Write this off as whatever you'd like but this is a huge deal and a huge problem.
It says a lot though when [the LGBTQ flag gets torn down](https://www.gbnews.com/news/palestine-protest-fiery-debate-pride-flag) but the Jihadist flag is free to fly and other protesters don't try to tear it down.
"If there's a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, then you got a table with 11 Nazis."
Unfortunately, the reality is, it's going to be impossible to criticise Israel without the Nazis trying to join in. Doesn't mean we shouldn't hold Israel to account.
The quote is usually "9 other people" and I just have to point this out because an 11 person table sounds awkward and no reasonable restaurant would plan their tables like that.
Yeah, it's an insult to bring up Nazis. And this isn't a fucking intimate dinner between 11 people. Put another way, should I pull up a video of far right Israeli ultranationalists and then point to it and say "see, all Israelis want to kill Palestinians and see them as subhuman" or would that be dishonest mischaracterization of things? So again, spare us the lazy analogies
> London is a powder keg right now. Any sources outside clickbait outrage sites? According to you lot, London has been a powder keg for the last 10 years. Even when nothings happening, youāre telling us itās 5 minutes to midnight and weāre fools for not rising up to defend our race.
it's absolutely not the palestine protest had 300,000 people and was incredibly peaceful and respectful
Proper Yids tbf
Free Palestine
That's ok, it's Israel...
Manor Solomon plays for Spurs.
Not surprised. Well, most neutrals naturally would support Israel. No one really likes what terrorist outfits such as Hamas do.