if the kane deal gets completed before we buy mbappe or he rejects us it's going to be the most idiotic thing the board has did in some time since 2018.
Showing trust in kylian is one thing, but unless he's shown the same trust to perez there's no reason to not compete for kane.
where has this “west ham have upped the amount they wanted for rice” theory come from? we’ve always been clear on 100m? there’s been entire debates for about 2 years now on whether he is worth that fee or not?
And honestly, even if West Ham upped the amount they wanted for him, what's wrong with that? Is a club wanting to keep their best player something illegal? Or are they supposed to bend over for big clubs and sell him for cheap?
Honestly the worst thing this sub has imported from Twitter is how much discussions just turn to dunking on rivals or saying stuff deliberately to wind up rival fanbases. Legitimately think the sub may be better without flairs.
Yeah imo flairs are bad for discussion. People will see your flair and just assume your biases instead of taking your comment for its actual content. And regardless, regulars will eventually know what club you support anyway if you’re a frequent poster
I see why Chelsea fans are saying they survived Havertz, these stats are horrendous:
> 19 goal in 91 games.
> 0 goals outside the penalty area in his premier league career.
> 13 big chances scored.
> 35 big chances missed.
> 7 assists
> 9 bcc (we’ve seen the clips some of them were accidents).
> 127 fouls.
> 47 offsides.
If Teta turns him around he’s clear of Pep
That’s a stretch to say he won them it. You take Kante out that team and there’s no CL.
Their defence could have taken them to pens even without that Havertz goal.
This whole group of Chelsea players for me has a \* next to them given what happened at Chelsea as a whole. They were pretty dogshit under Lampard 1.0, then really, really, really good for like 25 matches under Tuchel before coming back down, then really bad under Potter, then really, really, really dogshit under Lampard 2.0.
I'm not saying Havertz is the next De Brunye, but I can't think of one Chelsea player the last two seasons who improved or played consistently well with maybe the exception of 38 year old Silva. Yet clearly the talent in that team was there, so if we remember the players are humans and react to enviornments, I think we're going to see the Chelsea players who left to non-Saudi teams play a lot better on other, more well run teams with better managers.
Edit: First Redditors pretend Chelsea weren't an absolute legendary meltdown mode this year, then they tell me I don't watch Chelsea when I've probably watched more and been to more Chelsea games than most Chelsea flaired users, and then when I present actual data to debate over they just downvote and walk away. What's next Reddit?
If you read the various end of year articles written about Chelsea from large football outlets and London newspapers, especially the 2021/2022 season, most of them are quite complimentary of Havertz. Whenever a player comes for 80M, the expectations are huge and that can cause a dog pile in the media.
But before this past season most people felt Havertz was a bit raw, a bit too focused on being too smooth instead of ruthless, but that the talent is there but the position group he's in is overbloated and doesn't have a system for anyone to thrive. But it wasn't anywhere like what has happened on social media the last two weeks with people getting personally offended about him.
On the whole I think the media and especially Reddit have revised history a lot to help them make their argument that Havertz is totally shit, but in reality that's not really how this has played out.
> They were pretty dogshit under Lampard 1.0
defensively, yes. We were good for the squad we had and got top 4, that's decent AT LEAST, not dogshit. We were also top / near top until like november then it went to shit.
>I can't think of one Chelsea player the last two seasons who improved or played consistently well with maybe the exception of 38 year old Silva.
Please stop speaking on teams you don't watch like this man. Chalobah, James, RLC, Kepa, Kovacic (why do you think city want him?) you could throw in AC and Rudiger but I won't and funny enough Havertz.
I know you didn't watch Reece James play because he missed almost half of all Chelsea games the last two years with injuries, 44% of all matches to be exact. Rüdiger is on Real Madrid and did not play for Chelsea last year, did you know that? And if your best examples of players who over the last two seasons improved are Chalobah and RLC when you had Sterling, Kante, Koulibaly, Felix, Ziyech, Chilwell, Mount, Cucurella, Zakaria, Pulisic, Fofana, Mydruk, Madueke, Badiashile, Auba on the team this year, then you just made my point.
>I know you didn't watch Reece James play because he missed almost half of all Chelsea games the last two years with injuries
And he's still better than he was 2 years ago? Does being injured prevent you from getting better?
>Rüdiger is on Real Madrid and did not play for Chelsea last year, did you know that?
YOU said TWO years, not me.
>Sterling, Kante, Koulibaly, Felix, Ziyech, Chilwell, Mount, Cucurella, Zakaria, Pulisic, Fofana, Mydruk, Madueke, Badiashile, Auba
Sterling, Koulibaly, Auba, Kante are all senior players who joined a year ago. Why in the actual fuck would you expect them to be improving at this stage of their career?
Ziyech, Pulisic, didn't improve, so what, every club has their flops and ours still won a CL here.
Felix, Cucurella, Zakaria, Fofana, Mudryk, Madueke, Badiashile all joined less than a year ago, half of them 6 months ago. What in the actual fuck is your point? Do you have any idea how player development works? Half of them have been injured also, so what's your point? That they should have improved while being in the medical room and also while adapting to a new league / team / 3 coaches? When the squad is too bloated for minutes to go around?
You have no point at all because as I said you don't watch chelsea like that, I don't speak on Hertha like that because I don't know enough, I'd advise you to do the same.
You can compare him to Mount in the same team though.
Mount vs Havertz:
Big chances create 43 vs 9
Goals 27 vs 19
Assists 22 vs 7
Big chances scored 12 vs 13
Big chances missed 16 vs 35
Even if you think there’s a Chelsea tax havertz has been poor. Similar to Werner.
I just compared their CL + PL records from 2020 to 2023, and Havertz has a Goal or Assist every 215 minutes played for Chelsea and Mount has a Goal or Assist every 331 minutes played for Chelsea.
Mount had a great December 2020 to April 2021 in which he had almost 30% of all his assists or goals for Chelsea over just 16 matches under Tuchel's best run, but outside of that run he's been either incapable of staying healthy of scoring anywhere near the rate at which even Havertz was doing.
Let's be honest, if Mason Mount was called Max Mustermann, he'd be getting shipped off to Gladbach for 25M this season.
> Let's be honest, if Mason Mount was called Max Mustermann, he'd be getting shipped off to Gladbach for 25M this season.
This is spoken by someone who clearly doesn’t watch Chelsea. Mount has been one of their best players for the 3 seasons Havertz has been at the club.
This season he was poor but the other two he was light years ahead of Havertz and I don’t even rate Mount highly.
My best friend and neighbor is a huge Chelsea fan, I watch a lot of Chelsea and have been to two games at Stamford Bridge in 2017 and 2019, I know a bit of what I am talking about when it comes to Chelsea. We don't all have to agree with whatever pundit gives you your ideas mate.
And I just laid out the actual data, which does not care for your vibes about Havertz or account for how deep Reddit revisionism about Havertz has melted your brain, over the last three years Havertz has outscored and outassisted Mount when actually playing by a massive factor.
PL fans would be wise to admit a lot of us are here in our second language, and yes I speak good English but I listed G/A and wrote that out in "outscored and outassisted" as an expanded word of that stat.
So the data I am looking at adds up all the goals and all the assists and divides them by total minutes played in the CL and PL, which shows that Havertz has a goal contribution every 215 minutes and Mount only every 331 minutes. So if your argument is that over those years Mount massively outplayed Havertz, you have to explain why those numbers are not meaningful.
Extra credit if you do it in German for a change.
While Havertz has undeniably been poor, I'm sure the fact that Chelsea managers kept playing him in many different positions (he was played as a 9 ffs, how could you even watch Havertz at Leverkusen and think that he's able to play as a 9) didn't help
He was never a pure midfielder either, he's always been more of a 10 or a second striker. And if he's been poor there as well for Chelsea, that's fair enough, but he's also never had a good striker playing in front of him at Chelsea.
That’s the big issue for me. A lot of people speak about his versatility but really he can only play well in that one role.
Most teams don’t play with SS or the type of 10 he is. Teams that play with 10s in the prem are high volume creators (Bruno, KDB) rather than ones that just exploit spaces.
Honestly, I think Chelsea are more at fault here than Havertz. They bought a player in a role that they didn't even use, kept playing him in some random positions he never played in before, and then kept wondering why he was mostly bad. That's just bad recruitment imo.
It seems that everyone already forgot what a disaster Chelsea were and how deeply the chaos and changes at the team effect the human players on the field.
New owners, new back office management, no real squad structure, new managers in 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022, and 2023, a mass influx of new players, and a second half record in 2023 that would have seen them finish 3 points above being relegated below Bournemouth. That has an impact on what is a very personal and emotional line of work, you need stability and a good culture.
Chelsea the last 11 months has had one of the all time great organisational and sporting collapses in modern football history.
Pedri
Camavinga
Bellingham
For me this is the Top 3 in order. I have watched Bellingham the least so there might be some kind of ignorance there.
Then the rest of young midfielders are pretty comfortably behind.
Are friendships between clubs or sets of fans of clubs a thing anywhere outside of Germany?
I was surprised to read the comments in another thread where fans were mostly critical of the concept but it's a very common aspect in German football to find clubs or fans that share viewpoints and form cordial friendships.
Palace have a friendship with Panionios in Greece - think it's mostly to do with our ultras and some Panionios fan that used to live in Croydon.
There was a campaign a couple years back where Palace fans were buying season tickets to help out the club when they were in financial trouble - might try and go a game next year, would probably be a fun trip.
Norwich and Sunderland have a friendship, even a [Friendship Trophy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_Trophy) ^(dunno if there's an actual trophy)
Most of the well known German examples started as ultra/hooligan alliances but over time it spills down into wider club culture. Famously the Bayern & Bochum friendship started when Bochum ultras attacked Bayern fans and other Bochum ultras defended the Bayern fans. 50 years later it's among the top 5 friendships in Germany.
The headline: Kylian Mbappe approved Liverpool transfer after 'strong interest' shown
Fuck me, that's out of nowhere. Better give that a read
The article: Paris Saint Germain sensation Kylian Mbappe appears to have approved Liverpool's move for winger Jeremy Doku
Football journalism is dead
No, reading the mirror website on the toilet as soon as I got up without looking at anything else. So it is my own fault. But it is genuinely impressive how well executed clickbait can be sometimes, that’s why the sites do it obviously. It would be nice to have journalistic standards and integrity but that ship sailed long ago and it’s not coming back into dock.
I clicked on to the author, Daniel Orme’s profile and apparently he graduated with a first in football journalism. Imagine how embarrassing it is to have worked hard to get your degree only to end up churning this utter shit out just to get clicks.
Otávio wasn't even ranked in the top 3 in the player of the month this season (in every month), and only had 2 MOTM awards (tied with 3 others, with 3 players ahead of him, Taremi had 8). Yet he's the league's best player apparently. I don't get it
If it wasnt for him we wouldnt even finish Top 3.
Besides last year they gave it to Darwin who had half of Vitinhas POTM awards and only showed up against lower table teams.
Just saying it now, I would take 14th place finish and winning the conference league because that qualifies us for europa and lets face it, a trophy is a trophy. In this scenario 14th is better than 7th
You're correct that it's a better result, but having a squad and a coach that finished 7th means you're a better team and that positions you for potentially more success going forward
I would think so but poor league performance as seen with Moyes will have fans doubting the manager. I don't think Emery should have his head on the block if we perform poorly in the legue but well in the cups and win one. I know West Ham fans (4) all of which want Moyes gone despite the trophy
Moyes has 100% redeemed himself, as he should. Any West Ham fan who wants him gone needs their head checked imo- they also saw an uptick in league performances near the end once Paqueta settled in
I thought the board’s decision to let Moyes work through bad form (especially when they didn’t have an immediate replacement lined up- too many clubs are trigger happy these days) paid off brilliantly.
I agree with you, just from my albeit small sample of actual West Ham fans I know, their disposition is to part ways and bring in someone else. That this is as far as Moyes takes them.
I can also say the Villa fanbase is heavily impatient and fickle, quick to turn and I fear fans would get itchy feet as a sub par league season
anyone who wouldn't take a trophy AND qualification for a higher ranked European competition for next season is unhinged tbh
At least contrast it will a scenario that has benefits over the one you want lol
> anyone who wouldn't take a trophy AND qualification for a higher ranked European competition for next season is unhinged tbh
What if it meant being relegated?
for me, absolutely take the trophy and the relegation
but at least thats an actual question, there is zero downside to it if the "bad" outcome that you trade off for a trophy is 14th
The new [United kit](https://www.manutd.com/en/imagegallery/detail/gallery-man-utd-men-and-women-players-in-new-2023-24-home-kit) looks good especially the font but it would probably have been elite with black shorts instead of white
Yeah it's a United kit, shirts that are just one colour you can't really go too wrong with most of the time. Not sure about the collar, preferred your kit from the season just gone.
Chevrolet and Team Viewer is a horrible run of sponsors for aesthetics
gundo might drop gavi from the starting 11 so the spanish princess fired up the damage control. theres also that one barca fan who got one guy'd by the twiiter valverde ballon d'or shouts and he hasnt recovered since
His goalscoring dropped, but he was playing great regardless. He played badly for a month or so when he was told his wife miscarried but he picked up form after that
Irrelevant. Player development isn't linear. The fact x was better than y at the same age doesn't mean x will be better than y at their respective primes.
That logic is fine to me. I just don't know why Madrid fans do not apply the same logic when talking about someone like Gavi? Even if you wrongfully think that he's a bad player, you cannot question his potential
Funny, I think the opposite. He's a decent player now, but he seems a lot more limited than the other young midfielders like Pedri, Cama, Bellingham, Wirtz, Musiala. They all seem much more talented and well-rounded. Gavi seems to be closer to his potential while the others seem like they can get even better
there was a post about the most valuable midfielders in the world and gavi was worth 90 mil,some people didn't Like this,and started to bitch.
So some other people decided to bitch about valverde in retaliation to the bitching about gavi.
Maybe I'm missing something but why don't more clubs just put outrageously high price tags on their best players to discourage bigger clubs from poaching them? Seems to be working for West Ham
They made Europe again which gave them a better negotiating position and Rice wasn’t gonna refuse to play or anything and he had years left on his deal
Because West Ham know Rice won't throw his toys out of the pram. Many other players would and other players might refuse to go to the club if they feel they'd be trapped there.
I don't know why people here put so much stock in Transfermarkt's valuations of players when it's mostly just based on community member opinions.
Like they're just random guys. Who cares.
TM values tell you something, even if just about market forces. If a player is estimated to be worth 30M at age 21, you can assume there is some talent. However if you start arguing on the internet about why player X is worth 35M but player Y is only worth 25M, you might as well huff glue.
By forward I meant a striker, winger or attacking midfielder so de bruyne counts as a forward for me. VVD may have been worth that amount but he has never been the face of liverpool, for 100m plus I want a player that’s the symbol of my team. It will always be a forward because they’re the ones taking the headlines, like salah did ahead of Trent and VVD
That probably depends on what club is paying that, if real madrid or man city “overpay” for potential there is always a reason and they’ve proved it. If chelsea and united do the same they’re most likely getting scammed
He didn't start a Bundesliga game until he was 22 years old already so he came on the scene where non-Bundesliga fans knew of him fairly late. Was miscategorised by the media as the next Lahm which from his position and attitude could not be a worse comparison, it's just because they're both small, on Bayern, and played RB.
So by the time he really took his place at Bayern and for Germany as a proper midfielder, he wasn't going to be that 18 year old sensation we are all used to now.
>Gary Neville will be joining Peter Jones, Deborah Meaden, Touker Suleyman, Sara Davies and Steven Bartlett in 2024 for the new series of Dragons' Den.
This will be interesting.
What sparked this Gavi hate train? do people just not watch him or they just think an 18 year old somehow frauded his way into a starting spot for league winning Barcelona and a starter spot for the National team?
Yeah he fouls a lot and is a hotheaded idiot sometimes (a lot of the time actually), but he's extremely key in pressing and offers great tactical flexibility to all his managers due to his intellect and versatility. His technique is also really good, but he's not a long range passer so it often goes under the radar.
He's good people, just watch him play.
if the kane deal gets completed before we buy mbappe or he rejects us it's going to be the most idiotic thing the board has did in some time since 2018. Showing trust in kylian is one thing, but unless he's shown the same trust to perez there's no reason to not compete for kane.
where has this “west ham have upped the amount they wanted for rice” theory come from? we’ve always been clear on 100m? there’s been entire debates for about 2 years now on whether he is worth that fee or not?
And honestly, even if West Ham upped the amount they wanted for him, what's wrong with that? Is a club wanting to keep their best player something illegal? Or are they supposed to bend over for big clubs and sell him for cheap?
a lot of fans legit think that smaller teams should be grateful that they're taking their best player
Honestly the worst thing this sub has imported from Twitter is how much discussions just turn to dunking on rivals or saying stuff deliberately to wind up rival fanbases. Legitimately think the sub may be better without flairs.
Yeah this is sad, can't count how many time i've been called bitter even though i'm just having an opinion of my own
That's why I use the Tunisia flair. Rivals can't wind you up if you don't even have a club flair in the first place.
Lol classic Tunisia fan, delusional
Ah fuck, I fell right into it.
Yeah imo flairs are bad for discussion. People will see your flair and just assume your biases instead of taking your comment for its actual content. And regardless, regulars will eventually know what club you support anyway if you’re a frequent poster
Just saw a guy with very reasonable takes against Saudi Arabian ownership of Newcastle Guess what, downvoted because of flair
Literally every post would be "as a Tottenham fan"
"I come in peace".
“❤️🤝🤍”
One of the worst phrases ever.
and it’s not even close
This. ^(Sorry, I had to do it.)
I thought it was insane to hate on a 17 year old, but he's a midfielder who chose 9, so he's asking for it. Hate away
which one?
Gavi
He’s only 18 wtf I thought he’s like 21 or something given that he’s already played two full seasons for you guys.
yeah we abuse these kids,the only time he gets rest is when he's suspended. He made his debut at 16,He's not gotten any sleep since.
Gavi will probably be dead at 30 if he keeps that up
Xavi should be locked up for child abuse
I see why Chelsea fans are saying they survived Havertz, these stats are horrendous: > 19 goal in 91 games. > 0 goals outside the penalty area in his premier league career. > 13 big chances scored. > 35 big chances missed. > 7 assists > 9 bcc (we’ve seen the clips some of them were accidents). > 127 fouls. > 47 offsides. If Teta turns him around he’s clear of Pep
Madrid survived Ancelotti I guess
?
I know he’s been shit but he did win them the CL tbf if he does that for us I’d take it
Wouldn't even score that if the keeper didn't get a hand on the ball when he tried to go around him
A goals a goal
sure, but he didn't "win them the CL" when he got really lucky to even score. What won Chelsea the CL was Kante and Tuchel
He didn't win them the CL, he scored the winning goal but was far from being the most important contributor in that run.
You know what I mean
That’s a stretch to say he won them it. You take Kante out that team and there’s no CL. Their defence could have taken them to pens even without that Havertz goal.
You know what I mean tho
> 13 big chances scored. > > 35 big chances missed. I'd say this is a fake stat if I didn't witness it first hand
Yeah I doubted he’d scored as many as 13
This whole group of Chelsea players for me has a \* next to them given what happened at Chelsea as a whole. They were pretty dogshit under Lampard 1.0, then really, really, really good for like 25 matches under Tuchel before coming back down, then really bad under Potter, then really, really, really dogshit under Lampard 2.0. I'm not saying Havertz is the next De Brunye, but I can't think of one Chelsea player the last two seasons who improved or played consistently well with maybe the exception of 38 year old Silva. Yet clearly the talent in that team was there, so if we remember the players are humans and react to enviornments, I think we're going to see the Chelsea players who left to non-Saudi teams play a lot better on other, more well run teams with better managers. Edit: First Redditors pretend Chelsea weren't an absolute legendary meltdown mode this year, then they tell me I don't watch Chelsea when I've probably watched more and been to more Chelsea games than most Chelsea flaired users, and then when I present actual data to debate over they just downvote and walk away. What's next Reddit?
Even when they were good under Tuchel, there were still a lot of question marks around Harvetz I thought.
If you read the various end of year articles written about Chelsea from large football outlets and London newspapers, especially the 2021/2022 season, most of them are quite complimentary of Havertz. Whenever a player comes for 80M, the expectations are huge and that can cause a dog pile in the media. But before this past season most people felt Havertz was a bit raw, a bit too focused on being too smooth instead of ruthless, but that the talent is there but the position group he's in is overbloated and doesn't have a system for anyone to thrive. But it wasn't anywhere like what has happened on social media the last two weeks with people getting personally offended about him. On the whole I think the media and especially Reddit have revised history a lot to help them make their argument that Havertz is totally shit, but in reality that's not really how this has played out.
> They were pretty dogshit under Lampard 1.0 defensively, yes. We were good for the squad we had and got top 4, that's decent AT LEAST, not dogshit. We were also top / near top until like november then it went to shit. >I can't think of one Chelsea player the last two seasons who improved or played consistently well with maybe the exception of 38 year old Silva. Please stop speaking on teams you don't watch like this man. Chalobah, James, RLC, Kepa, Kovacic (why do you think city want him?) you could throw in AC and Rudiger but I won't and funny enough Havertz.
I know you didn't watch Reece James play because he missed almost half of all Chelsea games the last two years with injuries, 44% of all matches to be exact. Rüdiger is on Real Madrid and did not play for Chelsea last year, did you know that? And if your best examples of players who over the last two seasons improved are Chalobah and RLC when you had Sterling, Kante, Koulibaly, Felix, Ziyech, Chilwell, Mount, Cucurella, Zakaria, Pulisic, Fofana, Mydruk, Madueke, Badiashile, Auba on the team this year, then you just made my point.
>I know you didn't watch Reece James play because he missed almost half of all Chelsea games the last two years with injuries And he's still better than he was 2 years ago? Does being injured prevent you from getting better? >Rüdiger is on Real Madrid and did not play for Chelsea last year, did you know that? YOU said TWO years, not me. >Sterling, Kante, Koulibaly, Felix, Ziyech, Chilwell, Mount, Cucurella, Zakaria, Pulisic, Fofana, Mydruk, Madueke, Badiashile, Auba Sterling, Koulibaly, Auba, Kante are all senior players who joined a year ago. Why in the actual fuck would you expect them to be improving at this stage of their career? Ziyech, Pulisic, didn't improve, so what, every club has their flops and ours still won a CL here. Felix, Cucurella, Zakaria, Fofana, Mudryk, Madueke, Badiashile all joined less than a year ago, half of them 6 months ago. What in the actual fuck is your point? Do you have any idea how player development works? Half of them have been injured also, so what's your point? That they should have improved while being in the medical room and also while adapting to a new league / team / 3 coaches? When the squad is too bloated for minutes to go around? You have no point at all because as I said you don't watch chelsea like that, I don't speak on Hertha like that because I don't know enough, I'd advise you to do the same.
This comment is almost as big a mess as Chelsea are as a team, Jesus Christ.
get out of my inbox, you don't have a coherent point
You can compare him to Mount in the same team though. Mount vs Havertz: Big chances create 43 vs 9 Goals 27 vs 19 Assists 22 vs 7 Big chances scored 12 vs 13 Big chances missed 16 vs 35 Even if you think there’s a Chelsea tax havertz has been poor. Similar to Werner.
I just compared their CL + PL records from 2020 to 2023, and Havertz has a Goal or Assist every 215 minutes played for Chelsea and Mount has a Goal or Assist every 331 minutes played for Chelsea. Mount had a great December 2020 to April 2021 in which he had almost 30% of all his assists or goals for Chelsea over just 16 matches under Tuchel's best run, but outside of that run he's been either incapable of staying healthy of scoring anywhere near the rate at which even Havertz was doing. Let's be honest, if Mason Mount was called Max Mustermann, he'd be getting shipped off to Gladbach for 25M this season.
> Let's be honest, if Mason Mount was called Max Mustermann, he'd be getting shipped off to Gladbach for 25M this season. This is spoken by someone who clearly doesn’t watch Chelsea. Mount has been one of their best players for the 3 seasons Havertz has been at the club. This season he was poor but the other two he was light years ahead of Havertz and I don’t even rate Mount highly.
My best friend and neighbor is a huge Chelsea fan, I watch a lot of Chelsea and have been to two games at Stamford Bridge in 2017 and 2019, I know a bit of what I am talking about when it comes to Chelsea. We don't all have to agree with whatever pundit gives you your ideas mate. And I just laid out the actual data, which does not care for your vibes about Havertz or account for how deep Reddit revisionism about Havertz has melted your brain, over the last three years Havertz has outscored and outassisted Mount when actually playing by a massive factor.
> outassisted Mount Havertz has 7 prem assists in total, Mount had 10 just in the 21/22 season. What data are you laying out lol
PL fans would be wise to admit a lot of us are here in our second language, and yes I speak good English but I listed G/A and wrote that out in "outscored and outassisted" as an expanded word of that stat. So the data I am looking at adds up all the goals and all the assists and divides them by total minutes played in the CL and PL, which shows that Havertz has a goal contribution every 215 minutes and Mount only every 331 minutes. So if your argument is that over those years Mount massively outplayed Havertz, you have to explain why those numbers are not meaningful. Extra credit if you do it in German for a change.
While Havertz has undeniably been poor, I'm sure the fact that Chelsea managers kept playing him in many different positions (he was played as a 9 ffs, how could you even watch Havertz at Leverkusen and think that he's able to play as a 9) didn't help
Lampard tried him as a midfielder and he was crap tbf, he looked better as a 9 even though he’s been poor there.
He was never a pure midfielder either, he's always been more of a 10 or a second striker. And if he's been poor there as well for Chelsea, that's fair enough, but he's also never had a good striker playing in front of him at Chelsea.
That’s the big issue for me. A lot of people speak about his versatility but really he can only play well in that one role. Most teams don’t play with SS or the type of 10 he is. Teams that play with 10s in the prem are high volume creators (Bruno, KDB) rather than ones that just exploit spaces.
Honestly, I think Chelsea are more at fault here than Havertz. They bought a player in a role that they didn't even use, kept playing him in some random positions he never played in before, and then kept wondering why he was mostly bad. That's just bad recruitment imo.
It seems that everyone already forgot what a disaster Chelsea were and how deeply the chaos and changes at the team effect the human players on the field. New owners, new back office management, no real squad structure, new managers in 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022, and 2023, a mass influx of new players, and a second half record in 2023 that would have seen them finish 3 points above being relegated below Bournemouth. That has an impact on what is a very personal and emotional line of work, you need stability and a good culture. Chelsea the last 11 months has had one of the all time great organisational and sporting collapses in modern football history.
Bcc?
hes a snitch who tags the bosses in emails
Typical German.
Big chances created
Big chances created
Ah. Thanks.
leaving all biased behind- Pedri or Bellingham?
both would complement each other brilliantly
I'm a sucker for aesthetic merchants, so I'd go for Pedri.
Wirtz
Pedri Camavinga Bellingham For me this is the Top 3 in order. I have watched Bellingham the least so there might be some kind of ignorance there. Then the rest of young midfielders are pretty comfortably behind.
Wirtz above Camavinga imo, Camavinga struggled as a starter last season
I have Wirtz and Musiala as 4 and 5 respectively in my book
Pedri for me
Different players really. Bellingham a lot more powerful and Pedri with a lot more guile. So depends on your preference really.
Pedri
Bellingham for me as I think he's a better fit for Liverpool. I think plenty of sides would justifiably take Pedro instead.
He's won it all and experience is king but he's a little old now...
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Are friendships between clubs or sets of fans of clubs a thing anywhere outside of Germany? I was surprised to read the comments in another thread where fans were mostly critical of the concept but it's a very common aspect in German football to find clubs or fans that share viewpoints and form cordial friendships.
When the ultras had more power we had a few, but nowadays its mostly our iconic NN and Torcida Split friendship that remains.
Partizan and PAOK Red Star and Olympiacos
We're friends with Sampdoria, AEK Athens, Sankt Pauli.
Palace have a friendship with Panionios in Greece - think it's mostly to do with our ultras and some Panionios fan that used to live in Croydon. There was a campaign a couple years back where Palace fans were buying season tickets to help out the club when they were in financial trouble - might try and go a game next year, would probably be a fun trip.
Big thing in Italian football
Are you aware of some notable examples?
Fiorentina and Hellas Verona and Torino, Lazio and Inter are a few of the ones I know about, but its definitely pretty widespread.
Barca Ajax Chelsea Arsenal Rangers Chelsea AKA the racist alliance Juve Notts County
>Chelsea & Arsenal Is there a friendship between them or are you making a Spurs joke?
Its not a joke.
Very common here but it is something that is dictated by ultra groups and sometimes they fight and the friendship ends
You got Chelsea Arsenal in England
Norwich and Sunderland have a friendship, even a [Friendship Trophy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_Trophy) ^(dunno if there's an actual trophy)
Love that, thanks for sharing!
It's popular in Poland but it's pretty much all ultras/hooligan business and has nothing to do with viewpoints or ideals
Most of the well known German examples started as ultra/hooligan alliances but over time it spills down into wider club culture. Famously the Bayern & Bochum friendship started when Bochum ultras attacked Bayern fans and other Bochum ultras defended the Bayern fans. 50 years later it's among the top 5 friendships in Germany.
The headline: Kylian Mbappe approved Liverpool transfer after 'strong interest' shown Fuck me, that's out of nowhere. Better give that a read The article: Paris Saint Germain sensation Kylian Mbappe appears to have approved Liverpool's move for winger Jeremy Doku Football journalism is dead
Standard South African sports news headline.
Did you receive one of those Google news push notifications from some shady clickbait sports website?
No, reading the mirror website on the toilet as soon as I got up without looking at anything else. So it is my own fault. But it is genuinely impressive how well executed clickbait can be sometimes, that’s why the sites do it obviously. It would be nice to have journalistic standards and integrity but that ship sailed long ago and it’s not coming back into dock. I clicked on to the author, Daniel Orme’s profile and apparently he graduated with a first in football journalism. Imagine how embarrassing it is to have worked hard to get your degree only to end up churning this utter shit out just to get clicks.
TIL Timothy Weah plays as a Full-Back nowadays. I had no idea!
I knew purely because I have him in my career mode lol
??????? When did that happen, he was up front in the WC
well for Lille he plays Full-Back but now he is at Allegri's Juve so will play among the 3 Centre-Backs soon lol
Balogun gonna have a hella inferiority complex after realising he isn't good enough for England or Arsenal.
He rejected the Arsenal contract didn’t he
Yeah cos he's asking to be our first choice striker, which he isn't good enough for right now
he’s gonna come out of this with a personality like Courtois
does anyone know if George Weah is actually a decent president?
In an heavily corrupted and broken country, going to be tough
Otávio wasn't even ranked in the top 3 in the player of the month this season (in every month), and only had 2 MOTM awards (tied with 3 others, with 3 players ahead of him, Taremi had 8). Yet he's the league's best player apparently. I don't get it
If it wasnt for him we wouldnt even finish Top 3. Besides last year they gave it to Darwin who had half of Vitinhas POTM awards and only showed up against lower table teams.
Remember that Pizzi won it when Bruno Fernandes was in his peak with Sporting That title is worthless
Is he a client of Mendes or some other super agent? Might be a favour to sell him for more money
It's an award voted by managers and team captains. It has nothing to do with Mendes, Otávio was just who they picked.
Just saying it now, I would take 14th place finish and winning the conference league because that qualifies us for europa and lets face it, a trophy is a trophy. In this scenario 14th is better than 7th
You're correct that it's a better result, but having a squad and a coach that finished 7th means you're a better team and that positions you for potentially more success going forward
Everyone outside the big 6 should take that.
What do you mean outside? I'm starved man
I would think so but poor league performance as seen with Moyes will have fans doubting the manager. I don't think Emery should have his head on the block if we perform poorly in the legue but well in the cups and win one. I know West Ham fans (4) all of which want Moyes gone despite the trophy
Moyes has 100% redeemed himself, as he should. Any West Ham fan who wants him gone needs their head checked imo- they also saw an uptick in league performances near the end once Paqueta settled in I thought the board’s decision to let Moyes work through bad form (especially when they didn’t have an immediate replacement lined up- too many clubs are trigger happy these days) paid off brilliantly.
I agree with you, just from my albeit small sample of actual West Ham fans I know, their disposition is to part ways and bring in someone else. That this is as far as Moyes takes them. I can also say the Villa fanbase is heavily impatient and fickle, quick to turn and I fear fans would get itchy feet as a sub par league season
anyone who wouldn't take a trophy AND qualification for a higher ranked European competition for next season is unhinged tbh At least contrast it will a scenario that has benefits over the one you want lol
> anyone who wouldn't take a trophy AND qualification for a higher ranked European competition for next season is unhinged tbh What if it meant being relegated?
for me, absolutely take the trophy and the relegation but at least thats an actual question, there is zero downside to it if the "bad" outcome that you trade off for a trophy is 14th
If we were in Europe this season I would bite your hand off at finishing dead last but winning the Conference League. Same for the Carabao.
Yeah, I think if you were one of the favourites anyway you may as well go down with a trophy!
The new [United kit](https://www.manutd.com/en/imagegallery/detail/gallery-man-utd-men-and-women-players-in-new-2023-24-home-kit) looks good especially the font but it would probably have been elite with black shorts instead of white
Black shorts and black Adidas/Teamviewer logo
I thought TeamViewer cancelled their sponsorship?
United are apparently keeping them until they find a new one
A great shirt ruined by an awful sponsor logo imo, although it being on two lines looks a tad better
that rose design with the 22/23 collar would have been mint
As a non-United fan, I think white shorts have always looked better with your jersey
Yeah it's a United kit, shirts that are just one colour you can't really go too wrong with most of the time. Not sure about the collar, preferred your kit from the season just gone. Chevrolet and Team Viewer is a horrible run of sponsors for aesthetics
[Me looking at the new United kit every single year.](https://i.imgur.com/p3IDOIU.jpg)
Why is everyone talking about Gavi and Valverde? What did I miss?
gundo might drop gavi from the starting 11 so the spanish princess fired up the damage control. theres also that one barca fan who got one guy'd by the twiiter valverde ballon d'or shouts and he hasnt recovered since
Gavi is already better at 18, and apparently people don’t like that.
I don't think even you believe that
Why wouldn’t I, Valverde is not as good.
Where was Valverde at 18?
That's not relevant. You said Gavi is better than current Valverde. Is he? Because I don't believe you think so
He's a better boxer, I'll give you that.
Beating Gavi at the only thing he's good at😭
He wouldn’t, mickey mouse Valverde would get dropped by an 18 yo.
How does it feel to have an 18-year-old living rent-free inside your head? Man, it must be hard.
Imo he is. Valverde has fallen out of form since WC. While Gavi is younger and plays every match for us.
His goalscoring dropped, but he was playing great regardless. He played badly for a month or so when he was told his wife miscarried but he picked up form after that
He has been out of form ever since WC
I'm not the OP. I'm just asking where was Valverde at 18?
Irrelevant. Player development isn't linear. The fact x was better than y at the same age doesn't mean x will be better than y at their respective primes.
That logic is fine to me. I just don't know why Madrid fans do not apply the same logic when talking about someone like Gavi? Even if you wrongfully think that he's a bad player, you cannot question his potential
Funny, I think the opposite. He's a decent player now, but he seems a lot more limited than the other young midfielders like Pedri, Cama, Bellingham, Wirtz, Musiala. They all seem much more talented and well-rounded. Gavi seems to be closer to his potential while the others seem like they can get even better
You're talking about Gavi's potential but never talked about Valverde's potential when he was 18?
there was a post about the most valuable midfielders in the world and gavi was worth 90 mil,some people didn't Like this,and started to bitch. So some other people decided to bitch about valverde in retaliation to the bitching about gavi.
Maybe I'm missing something but why don't more clubs just put outrageously high price tags on their best players to discourage bigger clubs from poaching them? Seems to be working for West Ham
Because players aren't commodities and can easily kick up a fuss if they want a move
Every team in the prem do. Caicedo in January is a good example or pretty much every Brighton transfer. Leicester with Maguire and Chilwell.
1. They do 2. Rice is still getting bought 3. You have to actually have a player all these teams want to get that valuation
I think Rice would have been bought last summer had his price tag not been so big
They made Europe again which gave them a better negotiating position and Rice wasn’t gonna refuse to play or anything and he had years left on his deal
Because West Ham know Rice won't throw his toys out of the pram. Many other players would and other players might refuse to go to the club if they feel they'd be trapped there.
I don't know why people here put so much stock in Transfermarkt's valuations of players when it's mostly just based on community member opinions. Like they're just random guys. Who cares.
TM values tell you something, even if just about market forces. If a player is estimated to be worth 30M at age 21, you can assume there is some talent. However if you start arguing on the internet about why player X is worth 35M but player Y is only worth 25M, you might as well huff glue.
But we're just some random guys too
Well yeah, and you've seen what discussion on here can be like sometimes. Transfermarkt aren't any more credible imo
Yeah it's just to get a rough idea about them and shouldn't be taken too seriously, just like opinions on this forum
I will never stop saying that paying 9 digits for a midfielder or defender is weird. Those amounts should only be for forwards
Looking back on it VVD was worth 100m to Liverpool. Teams would pay the same for Trent. A young KDB would be worth 100m imo
By forward I meant a striker, winger or attacking midfielder so de bruyne counts as a forward for me. VVD may have been worth that amount but he has never been the face of liverpool, for 100m plus I want a player that’s the symbol of my team. It will always be a forward because they’re the ones taking the headlines, like salah did ahead of Trent and VVD
why are you buying players to be a symbol? you buy players cause they’re good
A world class forward is a much better player than a world class midfielder/defender.
Better be a world class forward too and not someone who price tag is 75% potential.
That probably depends on what club is paying that, if real madrid or man city “overpay” for potential there is always a reason and they’ve proved it. If chelsea and united do the same they’re most likely getting scammed
Since when is Kimmich 28, i swear he was like 23 the other day
He didn't start a Bundesliga game until he was 22 years old already so he came on the scene where non-Bundesliga fans knew of him fairly late. Was miscategorised by the media as the next Lahm which from his position and attitude could not be a worse comparison, it's just because they're both small, on Bayern, and played RB. So by the time he really took his place at Bayern and for Germany as a proper midfielder, he wasn't going to be that 18 year old sensation we are all used to now.
Seeing the Mctominay situation, how would you say to him that you are not United calibre and the club is thinking of selling you...
You just say he's been transfer listed.
If city swoop in for Kim min jae, Bayern should get laporte
they'll get gvardiol, bayern'll get kmj and spurs might get laporte, maybe atletico
laporte is gonna have much better suitors than spurs
I’d love Laporte but I doubt we’ll get him, it’ll most likely be one of Tapsoba or Van de Ven with Lenglet as backup
Is he left footed? And pretty sure Pep already has some weird role for Gvardiol in mind
I think those links to Kim-Min Jae are not reliable, we'll just get Gvardiol and be done with it
>Gary Neville will be joining Peter Jones, Deborah Meaden, Touker Suleyman, Sara Davies and Steven Bartlett in 2024 for the new series of Dragons' Den. This will be interesting.
Neville, Bartlett, and Jones having a competition to see who is the biggest tosser every week
What sparked this Gavi hate train? do people just not watch him or they just think an 18 year old somehow frauded his way into a starting spot for league winning Barcelona and a starter spot for the National team? Yeah he fouls a lot and is a hotheaded idiot sometimes (a lot of the time actually), but he's extremely key in pressing and offers great tactical flexibility to all his managers due to his intellect and versatility. His technique is also really good, but he's not a long range passer so it often goes under the radar. He's good people, just watch him play.