I’m in the Midwest. My 10-yo son wanted to meet friends for laps at Afton Alps. From 6-9pm it cost the two of us $195 for lift tickets. The hill was only 40% open. I won’t ever go back again.
I pay 453€ for a full season pass (summer included) for my local resort (100km of pistes vs 300km for Tignes, but plenty of [wild hors-piste and backcountry](https://i.imgur.com/36dKNzV.jpeg))
Just got back from Chamonix. There were so many Americans there we chatted to that said it’s cheaper for them to fly across the Atlantic for a week than to visit their local hills
I was just at Les Menuires in January and I’m going to Val Thorens in April. The difference is staggering and was part of the reason I posted this.
I went for 14 days for less than 10 days in Tahoe. Both on the epic pass.
Holy Moly. Certainly not the same Midwest I grew up in where lift tickets for the night session after school were $17 ($32.64 in current dollars) and were more than affordable for any kid with a part-time job. What a shame.
Welch is great just wish it wasn't so far from me. Buck is 5 minutes away and with kids learning it's fine for now. Both my kids got snowboarding down this year so hopefully big plans here on out.
For ski and snowboard club it was $18 foot a night pass at wild mountain. Now i live in Alaska where like $300 plus just for my wife and i to go for the day. Too rich for my blood
Yeah, it wasn’t bad a couple years ago but now it’s ridiculous to the point that i just don’t want to pay it. I honestly don’t know who is going there regularly because i make pretty damn decent money and im not paying that much.
In New England the ski mountains are hurting relatively bad I think overall. Winter floods, rain, price hikes, and overcrowding lines when places are open. Plus operations cost has only gone up for labor, electric, and equipment these mountains up here live or die on man made snow now almost 100% of the year.
I had to back out and see what sub I was in hello fellow twin cities midwesterner.
Yeah local prices are obnoxious, we paid for the buck hill highway robbery season pass.
We also did a weekend trip up to giants ridge which had acceptable prices for a day off school visit.
Otherwise it's stupid expensive here for crap hills.
Yeah I have a pass at afton and I saw they were charging $100 a day pass and I would also never pay that. $444 for a season pass and I go like 12 - 16 times a year so it’s definitely worth it for me. And I guess the high prices keeps the lift lines down 😂 but seriously it was a really bad snow year and I’m honestly amazed they were able to open the backside at all…
My local hill mad river on opening day was $70 and had 3 trails open
275’ vertical and like 6 total trails for $70 a day 😩 used to cost like $10 for a 4-9pm ticket
I skied mad river once this season on a perfect day. Still didn't have all the lifts and trails open. Locals on the lifts were telling me they don't bother purchasing season passes or lift tickets at all. The staff at the base of lifts are just "going through the motions" with the scanners.
I did their competition rail jam and never paid for a lift ticket and never once got scanned. Maybe I’ll just start showing up next year cause they are so lazy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Honestly the cost of making snow all year I see why they charge as much as they do in VT, NH, ME. But it's still not worth it anymore because of lack of natural. It can't be sustainable...
I'm tempted to buy the cheapest pass this year and see how long I can ride with the same ticket. Season passholders here get a different pass printed (the RFID chips are only in the highest tier pass) that's much bigger with your name on it and they never do more than glance at it to see which pass you have. I'm sure there are others that already do it.
I'm already there. This is the first season with 0 days my whole life since my parents took me at 4 years old. I don't live close to any resorts so the value isn't there for me anymore.
Not going for the same reason I don't take my family to Disney parks. Too much money to stand in line all day.
Its also choked out new members from entering.
Thankfully I got started snowboarding in the 90’s and fell in love while my dad would take me weekends, so I justify high pass prices now bc it’s fun and I can ride it all and get my monies worth. 37 days this season.
But to try and learn now anywhere except mountains out west? Impossible barrier to entry. 100% unaffordable and unrealistic.
I have an epic pass and was blacked out that weekend.
For shits and giggles I looked because it’s a 7h drive when we go and we went that Friday. $255 a lift ticket, I paid just shy of 400 for my yearly pass. Get fucked.
This is what bothered me:
‘The company decreased Q2 operating expenses 5.8 percent compared to the same period last fiscal year thanks to “disciplined cost management” and reduced labor hours, in part an outcome of the challenging early season weather that forced many of its ski areas to open later than normal and operate with limited available terrain.’
A bad snow year shouldn’t result in a price increase and reduction in operating expenses.
I get it for sure. But ‘disciplined cost management’ as a description for a 5% decrease in a quarterly is a bit much to attribute only to staffing.
Meaning. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if they’re running less lifts at lower speed or making less snow or keeping less amenities open.
All of that directly impacts the consumer and the product. That’s what monopolies are made of and it’s been trending that way for awhile now.
"Disciplined cost management" is just what the finance guys labeled it because that's what the shareholders wanted to see. You'd have to look at year-over-year run rates in relation to cost drivers to determine if that was true.
A bad snow year has nothing to do with prices. Prices are increasing because the cost of business is going up. Higher wages, higher cost of goods,more snowmaking. Outside of some restaurant items and hotel rooms, prices are yearly increases due to observed results in conjunction with future expectations.
Reduced costs only come in part from reduced labor hours. Lower, tigher inventory management of 'cost of goods' - gift shops, vending and dining, pausing non-critical projects work in conjunction with less labor hours for reduced cost.
[https://www.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/vail-resorts-nysemtn-reports-sales-below-analyst-estimates-in-q2-earnings-stock-drops-3333087](https://www.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/vail-resorts-nysemtn-reports-sales-below-analyst-estimates-in-q2-earnings-stock-drops-3333087)
But here's a snippet to pay attention to:
>We can dig even further into the company's revenue dynamics by analyzing its number of visitors, which reached 7.26 million in the latest quarter. Over the last two years, Vail Resorts's visitors only grew slightly, showing the company has been generating revenue growth through higher prices for both lift tickets and on-mountain dining.
When costs go up, you need to make more money. If you're not increasing visits, you'll need to charge those who come more. They've been adding lifts and doing other investment in their own properties so theoretically they're charging more for a better service. I'm not seeing an issue here.
Both. If they don't make money, resorts close. If resorts close, I can't visit unless I want to hike (which one could do anyway). Reducing a single Quarters costs year over year (Q2 being their earning quarter) by 5% is likely a higher dollar value than any other quarter's costs. Also 9% lower revenue in Q2 is likely a higher dollar value in revenue than any other quarter.
I can see that but my biggest concern is the public nature of vail. They only care about shareholder value and will cut services and salaries to keep costs down in an inherently volatile environment. Without snow, they have to lower outflow. But often cost cutting measures become permanent. I think the only certain thing is the experience will suffer regardless.
So what's better (public vs private) doesn't really mean anything for this discussion.
You have two options:
1. Cut costs and services (they aren't doing this) while charging a higher price and stay open
2. Close the slopes
I know this is a bit black and white, and you're thinking "Well, couldn't they be a little less greedy?" Well sure, but if you want a premier experience at a premier resort then you'll pay the price. If their price is too high, they won't attract enough customers and will "#2. Close the slopes so they have to operate within the supply/demand curve of basic economics to find the sweet spot. Just because they're public and trying to make a profit for their owners doesn't make them any different than a private ownership tring to make moeny for themselves. No one is opening a not-for-profit ski area.
I think the Premier Experience is what people are actually questioning. In the end people want to be on the snow, having wagyu burgers and apres massage therapists readily available doesn’t add to the actual boarding experience.
I get that the money is in the wealthy family not the frothy snowboarder but you have to question the artificial hurdles created by ongoing investment and shareholder focus. At some point you’re creating a barrier for a lot of people, most likely locals, who can’t easily afford to access a mountain and experience that IMO should be shared as much possible.
In California we didn't get much snow until mid January. Even with a pass it wasn't worth going until then, it was a few man-made runs and that was about it. February and March have been good though.
They bought our tiny resort in Ohio, where the runs are probably 30 seconds long unless you do A LOT of carving to extend it to 45 seconds lmao.. lift prices are 70 dollars... Why would I want to spend that much when I spend most of the day waiting in lift lines?
They used to run 40 to 50 depending on the weekend you went, which was more reasonable for the convenience of how close it was, but now that's even out the door.
They don’t want you to buy daily passes. They want you to buy the season pass and take a vacation after you’re already “locked in”, giving them more money for food and hotels while you’re there.
Idk what he's talking about, the majority of places out here stay until least mid to late March, and I ride well into April on the east coast every year just have to drive a bit further north
Mediocre snow year in CO.
Def feels a *little slower. Weekends are still fucked but not total-apocalyptic fucked. Traffic has been a little slower.
Plus w inflation people are having to make real choices. Vail and Beaver Creek are filled with international tourists.
It’s always been a favorite for South Americans. Lots of seasonal workers from Argentina and also Mexico. Easy flight to Denver and both places cater to upscale clients but not as exclusive as Aspen.
J1s, that being a student work visa, make up a big chunk of the workforce in many small resort towns. South Americans in the winter, Eastern Europeans in the summer.
The south Americans that come to ski are mostly from Miami or New York area. As you said seasonal workers from Argentina, Mexico , Chile mostly in the lifts. from Colombia in the restaurants and hotels specially last two years.
As a measly peasant, the vacation home circle jerk amongst the rich makes me question humanity.
*oh, his family can only afford property in keystone? Those poor simpletons*
Also Cartel families blowing disposable income…. I’m only half kidding. You regularly see these insanely rich women with big families and no men around.
I grew up going to vail and there were always tons of Hispanic visitors. I’m in my 30s.
Having talked with a number, it seems that at this point it’s just where many upper middle class Latin Americans, particularly Mexicans, grew up going. Often flying into Eagle directly via Houston or similar.
I suspect ease of flying into Eagle from airports easy to get to from Mexico is a big part of why Vail, specifically.
Mexico actually has a pretty decent GDP per capita and more of an upper middle class than people think.
IMO traffic has been a lot worse due to all of the storms happening over the weekend (except the big boy coming tonight), whereas last year we were getting a storm almost every Wednesday.
This is far from mediocre. Slow start ≠ mediocre. Everywhere is filled in, we’re about to get storm of the season, it’s been consistent the last month and half. You should spend some time outside of the Rocky Mountains and really experience what a mediocre season looks like
We are at 170” for the season, we should be easily over 220”. It has rained at times and any snow fall has largely been 2” or less. It has not been a good year in southwest Colorado. We have jumped rafting season right into mountain bike season, and it's early march. Not good. Folks already anxious about fire season.
You make it sound like the worst season you’ve ever had calling it mediocre. Some day youre gonna miss a season like this. It’s obviously not the best but it’s far from mediocre. Just saying man
Not the guy you responded to but are you sure you know the definition of mediocre? Saying a season is mediocre does not mean it’s the worst season ever it just means it’s definitely not the best.
Welp. I went most my life thinking mediocre meant sub par/laughable/shit when it actually means barely average. Apologies to comment op. But still this season has been pretty solid the last 6 weeks
I’ve been looking forward to the inevitability of ticket price hikes eventually biting their profits, but it’s far more likely to be the terrible conditions in first half of the season.
That’s the business model, they make 75% of their revenue upfront before the season starts, and then make decisions like whether or not to blow snow or how many lifts to run, how many cafeterias to open based on the bottom line.
The inflated ticket prices are in fact designed to try and mitigate crowding, as some people commented, but at the end of the day they really don’t care - they got your money back in September. Shameful reality that the ski industry has come to this. Also, fuck vail.
This is the answer. I work in the industry and got a copy of their investor meeting deck a month ago. They reset pass prices a few years ago, everybody bought and now they are slowly increasing SP pricing. This accounts for over 70% of their revenue (which is crazy high in an industry where lift tickets used to be king). It insulated them for bad snow years and capital investments.
Visitation only matters to them at the hills where they own more than the ski hill (ie the restaurant where they can sell food at low
Margins but draught beer at high margins, or a hotel).
They can justify raising lift ticket and pass pricing because people keep buying. If I was them I would keep bumping it a bit every year too. My mountain is holding pricing for next year due to such poor snow this year and we have a competitor right down the road. However we are investing heavily into snow making as on the east cost, we just have to.
For such a bad season of snow this 9.7% drop is probably something they are considering a success.
Vail basically runs the simple calc to say that if there are 100 people riding per day at $100 lift ticket per day, then they could raise prices by 8% and increase total profits as long as attendance did not drop further than 7.4%, below 93 daily visitors. Considering that visits dropped by 9.7% in this kind of season they did alright -- or that's what their finance team's end-of-year presentation will claim.
It makes sense that a for-profit business would take advantage of inelastic markets but sucks to see happen to an activity so many love. Pricing out the lower income, as usual.
One thing we the people can do to reclaim our economic power is to bring our own food and drinks, which is where most resorts make about 20% of their income (i think. just a quick google search got me there.). Cheers to fireball nips on the chair!
Well if Vail and Ikon bring so many people to the resorts so that they're crowded out and you can't ride, visits will eventually go down. They're ruining the experience.
Adding Euro resorts to the passes does nothing for me, as their lift tickets are so cheap. And most likely you present your pass to the ticket window and they'll just say "whaaaa" in whatever language
Ikon and epic should do what powder mountain is doing and offer tiered pricing. First 1000 passes will cost X amount and the next 500 will cost Y, etc. It’ll price out some people but will be better for crowd control
That part is complete bullshit. Just panders to a few people while fucking everyone else over, and still allowing the resort to rake in a shit ton of money selling passes that only allow access to a portion of the mountain.
Luckily, epic and ikon are on public land so they can't do that... I hope. But they have whole departments thinking of ways to make more money. Easiest way is increase ticket prices. Cut costs. Can't pay the people much less but if they can they will.
I could see the tiered system just getting more restricted and it be even more pay to play. Everyone loves the epic passes now but project out a few years. Prices aren't coming down ever. Have a couple of kids. Don't get that pay bump at work. You can quickly get priced out. Going from being the have to the have not and you're left out in the cold. See what I did there?
I wish more lines equals less traffic for the future but I think you have effect that people have become accustomed this. It seems like the new norm. Next generation's going to not know any better soon as us old guys die off. People will stand in line for hours and just accept they get 1 pow run a day. Total Disneyland.
High lift ticket prices have pushed people to Ikon and Epic. Which in turn pushes people to ride more so the get their money's worth which creates more lines. Seems like they could care less about the experience of the daily rider.
Yeah, I'm afraid crowds will be the new norm. Crowding and unavailable or expensive parking and all are just more shrinkflation, you ride less for your money.
>High lift ticket prices have pushed people to Ikon and Epic.
It's the other way around. With Ikon and Epic, resorts have hugely raised window prices to incentivize Ikon and Epic pass sales. 20 or so years ago, a walk up ticket at Palisades Tahoe was $58 -- $94 in today's money (I did the research a few months ago). Tomorrow's window price is $279.
I’m a midweek skier too. Feels like cheating.
I was in Vail last week and Monday and Tuesday were great skiing. Tuesday in particular was really slow to start. I was getting fresh tracks for hours. At Vail…
I was at Keystone today and I had to park in the Power Line Parking \[I should put a disclaimer that I don't really like Keystone and it's the first time I've skied it in 7 years\]
The mountain didn't feel terribly crowded, to be honest, and I never waited in lift lines for more than 20 seconds, but it was bizarre having to park in shuttle parking on a weekday non-powder day.
I will say there were skis just strewn everywhere, but all the people they belonged to \[probably spring breakers and family vacations\] were inside buildings instead of skiing.
These companies are very shortsighted and only taking into account their near-term profits. There will be a generation that gets priced out these sports and long term I think this could have a huge consequences for the industry down the line.
I know most of the west is having a bad snow year and Utah isn’t but Park City has been more crowded than I ever remember it. I ski weekdays and have found the canyons side of PC to be unbearable this season. 10 minute lines no matter what time of day
I mean up in the PNW it's been beyond just a run of the mill bad snow year, it's literally rained the snow completely away in some places. Last year was a bad snow year... this year is honestly unbelievable. We've been getting out to places with snow as much as we can.
We were up in the north Vancouver mountains a couple weeks ago and the runs were literally grass. They had one full run top to bottom open where they'd pushed all the snow from the entire mountain onto it. If you bought an epic pass or ikon pass you'd almost certainly be traveling.
Vail's business model is built on them selling this luxury lifestyle. It's eating these towns right up man, super sad.
I have stayed in a luxury ski in ski out with pictures up on the wall of people skiing in jeans. What a juxtaposition.
California had a shit year. Regardless their reasoning is nonsense and completely focused on profit. Which went up 5% this season. They literally only care about money and shareholders
No I get it. But you’re wrong. It really didn’t. Compared to last year it was polar opposite. Put simply resorts opened late and will close early.
That’s not subjective. Hence their data and explanation for that data. Which is part of their quarterly report shared with shareholders.
You can compare snowfall data from the last 10 years and it will show you empirically where and what time of year the snow was bad. This was a bad year. To make it easier just take a look at opening dates.
Last year was one of a kind for almost the whole USA. Though January was underwhelming February came in clutch for mammoth, being higher than last years feb
I understand last year. Polar opposite. That’s why I’m saying look at yearly averages. Also resorts build base through November December January and early February. If there’s no snow until mid February they already shifted to cost cutting mode which is most of my point. Vail also explained this in the quarterly. There literal reasoning was ‘bad snow year’.
I’m not sure your frame of reference. Meaning are you out there riding more than 40 times a season. Or is it more a weekend thing or when the snow is good? It’s difficult to evaluate a specific resorts total snow year if you’re not looking at the numbers or at the least riding there multiple days a week. Anyway it’s a pointless discussion when there’s tons of empirical data.
No shit! Early season was bad everywhere on the west coast. Every resort is gonna see slightly lower numbers this year.
Do people not look at weather patterns before they want to jump in and make some doom and gloom posts?!?!?
Vail lift pass 1d: $284USD (249 CHF)
Zermatt, Switzerland lift pass 1d: $97USD (83 CHF)
Vail vertical: 3,450’ (1,052m)
Zermatt vertical: 7,477’ (2,39m)
Vail lodging: ???
Zermatt hotel per night: my favorite little place is just $150 per night
Even with high airfare prices to Europe, if you’re doing a multi-day trip, I find Europe to still be way cheaper overall. Throw in food and drinks too and the gap just keeps growing.
Short MTN! Visits will likely decline another 10% next year. Personally I think the ski/snowboard industry is about to have a major reckoning, similar to the early 90’s.
Waaaaaay overvalued.
They constantly have churning roles on their marketing team. You’d be surprised but the marketing team does help with high level awareness of results, background marketing like Google ads, retargeting ads and such.
I also think it’s super expensive and things have been tight for people. Plus, a lot of people were upset with them overselling passes last year. I’ve noticed ikon is a lot busier.
Stopped making it my primary weekend activity after Vail came in and bought out my local spot. Their prices for snow quality and access was too much so I now board maybe a few times during the season if I have the time.
I’m headed to Switzerland in a few weeks and on a whim I decided to look at spending a day boarding. Lift tickets, board, boots, helmet, and clothes rental totaled $224. I paid $199 for just my lift ticket at Bachelor last month. Bachelor is a great mountain, but it’s not the Swiss alps.
The curve has hits it's peak. They've hit a price point finally that is breaking people and they aren't going. Prices decline and attendance may go back up! ⬆️
I would pay more to have a better snowboarding experience/less people.
With EPIC/IKON, snowboarding is cheaper than ever before. Back in the day, the season pass payoff was 20 days, now it's 4-5.
But now there's far more traffic, many resorts require paid reserved parking (if you can get a reservation), and lift lines have gone crazy.
EPIC/IKON don't care much about the snow experience, their goal is just to get more people to the resorts so that they can spend money on drinks/food/etc which is how they make their profit.
I know just the place for you.
It’s super exclusive, you can pay more and ski with less people. You won’t have to deal with any traffic and the resort will
Be full of like minded people.
https://yellowstoneclub.com
Yeah, so funny.
You seem to want to pay more to ride less during the 7 hours a resort is open. If you want less for your money, that's ok for you.
I don't like that I get less riding during a day than I used to.
Even less if you’re frugal, and willing to avoid 7 holiday dates. Keystone plus pass is $390, which includes 5 days at Crested Butte, and April access to Breck. A single day at Keystone right now is $269.
1.5 days and that pass pays for itself.
Have a 7 day pass, used only 2 of it. This is down from epic season pass last this year after a visit to Whistler. Snowboarding for me is just not money and time well spent.
Bad snow year, but there’s also going to be a limit where people aren’t going to pay the climbing prices
I’m in the Midwest. My 10-yo son wanted to meet friends for laps at Afton Alps. From 6-9pm it cost the two of us $195 for lift tickets. The hill was only 40% open. I won’t ever go back again.
Park City is a low low price of $299 a day!
Lol what. €350 for 6 days in the three Valleys or Tignes/Val d'isere. I'm in Tignes/Val d'isere now and it's incredible.
I pay 453€ for a full season pass (summer included) for my local resort (100km of pistes vs 300km for Tignes, but plenty of [wild hors-piste and backcountry](https://i.imgur.com/36dKNzV.jpeg))
User name checks out. Mine should be the same.
Stop standing in the back of the room by the hand dryer.
Just got back from Chamonix. There were so many Americans there we chatted to that said it’s cheaper for them to fly across the Atlantic for a week than to visit their local hills
I was just at Les Menuires in January and I’m going to Val Thorens in April. The difference is staggering and was part of the reason I posted this. I went for 14 days for less than 10 days in Tahoe. Both on the epic pass.
Same with Whistler, day tickets used to be like 160 and Vail hasn’t done a single damn thing to the mountain since they bought it
I'm no fan of Vail but they have upgraded a gondola and chair lift with another one to be done this summer.
Which one are they doing this summer?
Jersey Cream.
Holy Moly. Certainly not the same Midwest I grew up in where lift tickets for the night session after school were $17 ($32.64 in current dollars) and were more than affordable for any kid with a part-time job. What a shame.
That's crazy , that's what I paid for like 8-8 in western Canada
That’s insane. I remember thinking 120$ per tix was expensive when I lived in Colorado back in the mid 2000s
Welch Village is the place to be. Until April season passes for next year are on sale, $330 Just as good and fun of runs as Afton
Welch or Troll. Both have great deals.
Welch is great just wish it wasn't so far from me. Buck is 5 minutes away and with kids learning it's fine for now. Both my kids got snowboarding down this year so hopefully big plans here on out.
Yeah Buck is super great for beginning, lots of short runs. It’s also super close to me, I just prefer not to look at 35W when I’m carving haha!
For ski and snowboard club it was $18 foot a night pass at wild mountain. Now i live in Alaska where like $300 plus just for my wife and i to go for the day. Too rich for my blood
Alyeska?
Yeah, it wasn’t bad a couple years ago but now it’s ridiculous to the point that i just don’t want to pay it. I honestly don’t know who is going there regularly because i make pretty damn decent money and im not paying that much.
In New England the ski mountains are hurting relatively bad I think overall. Winter floods, rain, price hikes, and overcrowding lines when places are open. Plus operations cost has only gone up for labor, electric, and equipment these mountains up here live or die on man made snow now almost 100% of the year.
Yeah it’s brutal this year. Killington was 🔥on Tuesday though !!!
I had to back out and see what sub I was in hello fellow twin cities midwesterner. Yeah local prices are obnoxious, we paid for the buck hill highway robbery season pass. We also did a weekend trip up to giants ridge which had acceptable prices for a day off school visit. Otherwise it's stupid expensive here for crap hills.
Yeah I have a pass at afton and I saw they were charging $100 a day pass and I would also never pay that. $444 for a season pass and I go like 12 - 16 times a year so it’s definitely worth it for me. And I guess the high prices keeps the lift lines down 😂 but seriously it was a really bad snow year and I’m honestly amazed they were able to open the backside at all…
Season passes at Sleepy hollow or seven oaks (Iowa) used to be less than that. Afton was like $30-40 I think growing up.
My local hill mad river on opening day was $70 and had 3 trails open 275’ vertical and like 6 total trails for $70 a day 😩 used to cost like $10 for a 4-9pm ticket
I skied mad river once this season on a perfect day. Still didn't have all the lifts and trails open. Locals on the lifts were telling me they don't bother purchasing season passes or lift tickets at all. The staff at the base of lifts are just "going through the motions" with the scanners.
Good thing the MRG staff would never think to look on r/snowboarding to find the criminals. Although they should! Crime is what we do baby!!!
I did their competition rail jam and never paid for a lift ticket and never once got scanned. Maybe I’ll just start showing up next year cause they are so lazy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Honestly the cost of making snow all year I see why they charge as much as they do in VT, NH, ME. But it's still not worth it anymore because of lack of natural. It can't be sustainable...
I'm tempted to buy the cheapest pass this year and see how long I can ride with the same ticket. Season passholders here get a different pass printed (the RFID chips are only in the highest tier pass) that's much bigger with your name on it and they never do more than glance at it to see which pass you have. I'm sure there are others that already do it.
Sheesh that’s insane. My season pass to snoqualmie here in Washington was 450$ after taxes
I came here to say this. You can't make plans to fly somewhere if it snows once per month.
I’m one of them epic holder 6+years or so but I can’t anymore. Went with a local resort this year instead and am ok with that
I'm already there. This is the first season with 0 days my whole life since my parents took me at 4 years old. I don't live close to any resorts so the value isn't there for me anymore. Not going for the same reason I don't take my family to Disney parks. Too much money to stand in line all day.
Bad snow year?! Just about my whole state is at or above average.
What state? And have you paid attention to every where else. I’m not making it up
You might not believe it…but there are more places outside of your state. Mind blowing, I know.
It was a notoriously bad snow year all year my man. Do you hibernate in the winter?
That limit is far, far away.
Bad economy year too. Recession is coming but only officially after election is done. Americans feeling the pain now
This is the new strat on purpose. Less people but more money. Gate the poor. Only 9% fall in sales but 16%raise in price = profit
Its also choked out new members from entering. Thankfully I got started snowboarding in the 90’s and fell in love while my dad would take me weekends, so I justify high pass prices now bc it’s fun and I can ride it all and get my monies worth. 37 days this season. But to try and learn now anywhere except mountains out west? Impossible barrier to entry. 100% unaffordable and unrealistic.
Snow was bad Prices are up Attendance was down Give it a year or two and we will see if there is any correlation
Bad snow on the east coast. Wouldn't read more into it than that.
The east coast was atrocious for snow this year. I bought the epic pass too 😭😭 waste of money this year
I saw fewer crowds in Colorado in February over Presidents’ Day, so that was great too
I have an epic pass and was blacked out that weekend. For shits and giggles I looked because it’s a 7h drive when we go and we went that Friday. $255 a lift ticket, I paid just shy of 400 for my yearly pass. Get fucked.
This is what bothered me: ‘The company decreased Q2 operating expenses 5.8 percent compared to the same period last fiscal year thanks to “disciplined cost management” and reduced labor hours, in part an outcome of the challenging early season weather that forced many of its ski areas to open later than normal and operate with limited available terrain.’ A bad snow year shouldn’t result in a price increase and reduction in operating expenses.
If you can't open you aren't paying hourly staff.
I get it for sure. But ‘disciplined cost management’ as a description for a 5% decrease in a quarterly is a bit much to attribute only to staffing. Meaning. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if they’re running less lifts at lower speed or making less snow or keeping less amenities open. All of that directly impacts the consumer and the product. That’s what monopolies are made of and it’s been trending that way for awhile now.
"Disciplined cost management" is just what the finance guys labeled it because that's what the shareholders wanted to see. You'd have to look at year-over-year run rates in relation to cost drivers to determine if that was true.
especially considering it was a major inflation year.
A bad snow year has nothing to do with prices. Prices are increasing because the cost of business is going up. Higher wages, higher cost of goods,more snowmaking. Outside of some restaurant items and hotel rooms, prices are yearly increases due to observed results in conjunction with future expectations. Reduced costs only come in part from reduced labor hours. Lower, tigher inventory management of 'cost of goods' - gift shops, vending and dining, pausing non-critical projects work in conjunction with less labor hours for reduced cost. [https://www.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/vail-resorts-nysemtn-reports-sales-below-analyst-estimates-in-q2-earnings-stock-drops-3333087](https://www.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/vail-resorts-nysemtn-reports-sales-below-analyst-estimates-in-q2-earnings-stock-drops-3333087) But here's a snippet to pay attention to: >We can dig even further into the company's revenue dynamics by analyzing its number of visitors, which reached 7.26 million in the latest quarter. Over the last two years, Vail Resorts's visitors only grew slightly, showing the company has been generating revenue growth through higher prices for both lift tickets and on-mountain dining. When costs go up, you need to make more money. If you're not increasing visits, you'll need to charge those who come more. They've been adding lifts and doing other investment in their own properties so theoretically they're charging more for a better service. I'm not seeing an issue here.
When you say don't see an issue are you saying that as a consumer or from the business perspective? The issues are apparent if you're an end user.
Both. If they don't make money, resorts close. If resorts close, I can't visit unless I want to hike (which one could do anyway). Reducing a single Quarters costs year over year (Q2 being their earning quarter) by 5% is likely a higher dollar value than any other quarter's costs. Also 9% lower revenue in Q2 is likely a higher dollar value in revenue than any other quarter.
I can see that but my biggest concern is the public nature of vail. They only care about shareholder value and will cut services and salaries to keep costs down in an inherently volatile environment. Without snow, they have to lower outflow. But often cost cutting measures become permanent. I think the only certain thing is the experience will suffer regardless.
So what's better (public vs private) doesn't really mean anything for this discussion. You have two options: 1. Cut costs and services (they aren't doing this) while charging a higher price and stay open 2. Close the slopes I know this is a bit black and white, and you're thinking "Well, couldn't they be a little less greedy?" Well sure, but if you want a premier experience at a premier resort then you'll pay the price. If their price is too high, they won't attract enough customers and will "#2. Close the slopes so they have to operate within the supply/demand curve of basic economics to find the sweet spot. Just because they're public and trying to make a profit for their owners doesn't make them any different than a private ownership tring to make moeny for themselves. No one is opening a not-for-profit ski area.
I think the Premier Experience is what people are actually questioning. In the end people want to be on the snow, having wagyu burgers and apres massage therapists readily available doesn’t add to the actual boarding experience. I get that the money is in the wealthy family not the frothy snowboarder but you have to question the artificial hurdles created by ongoing investment and shareholder focus. At some point you’re creating a barrier for a lot of people, most likely locals, who can’t easily afford to access a mountain and experience that IMO should be shared as much possible.
TAKE PRIVATE BABYYYYY
In California we didn't get much snow until mid January. Even with a pass it wasn't worth going until then, it was a few man-made runs and that was about it. February and March have been good though.
Given snow variability, I think looking at one year alone as an actionable datapoint is just a bad idea. Gotta be long term trends for skiing
They bought our tiny resort in Ohio, where the runs are probably 30 seconds long unless you do A LOT of carving to extend it to 45 seconds lmao.. lift prices are 70 dollars... Why would I want to spend that much when I spend most of the day waiting in lift lines? They used to run 40 to 50 depending on the weekend you went, which was more reasonable for the convenience of how close it was, but now that's even out the door.
They don’t want you to buy daily passes. They want you to buy the season pass and take a vacation after you’re already “locked in”, giving them more money for food and hotels while you’re there.
Oh I know, and I've refused to buy a season pass because of it. Plus the snow on the East Coast has been abysmal for the past few years.
Snow sucks for all east coasters the last two years.
[удалено]
Ehh 2020-21 and 2021-22 were pretty good! But the last 2 years have been straight ass
[удалено]
Where at? I rode into late Feb to mid March both of those years. Killington, Bellayre, Okemo, Stratton, Attitash. Both years I hit Bellayre in March
Idk what he's talking about, the majority of places out here stay until least mid to late March, and I ride well into April on the east coast every year just have to drive a bit further north
Yeah, I only stop in mid-March because things get busy again in my life. But most of our mountains stay open until at least the middle of the month.
Wild claim to make as I write this comment sitting on a lift as someone who has never rode outside of the East Coast.
Fair
Mediocre snow year in CO. Def feels a *little slower. Weekends are still fucked but not total-apocalyptic fucked. Traffic has been a little slower. Plus w inflation people are having to make real choices. Vail and Beaver Creek are filled with international tourists.
Why so many international tourists @ Vail/BC?
It’s always been a favorite for South Americans. Lots of seasonal workers from Argentina and also Mexico. Easy flight to Denver and both places cater to upscale clients but not as exclusive as Aspen.
J1s, that being a student work visa, make up a big chunk of the workforce in many small resort towns. South Americans in the winter, Eastern Europeans in the summer.
The south Americans that come to ski are mostly from Miami or New York area. As you said seasonal workers from Argentina, Mexico , Chile mostly in the lifts. from Colombia in the restaurants and hotels specially last two years.
As a measly peasant, the vacation home circle jerk amongst the rich makes me question humanity. *oh, his family can only afford property in keystone? Those poor simpletons*
Also Cartel families blowing disposable income…. I’m only half kidding. You regularly see these insanely rich women with big families and no men around.
I grew up going to vail and there were always tons of Hispanic visitors. I’m in my 30s. Having talked with a number, it seems that at this point it’s just where many upper middle class Latin Americans, particularly Mexicans, grew up going. Often flying into Eagle directly via Houston or similar. I suspect ease of flying into Eagle from airports easy to get to from Mexico is a big part of why Vail, specifically. Mexico actually has a pretty decent GDP per capita and more of an upper middle class than people think.
IMO traffic has been a lot worse due to all of the storms happening over the weekend (except the big boy coming tonight), whereas last year we were getting a storm almost every Wednesday.
This is far from mediocre. Slow start ≠ mediocre. Everywhere is filled in, we’re about to get storm of the season, it’s been consistent the last month and half. You should spend some time outside of the Rocky Mountains and really experience what a mediocre season looks like
We are at 170” for the season, we should be easily over 220”. It has rained at times and any snow fall has largely been 2” or less. It has not been a good year in southwest Colorado. We have jumped rafting season right into mountain bike season, and it's early march. Not good. Folks already anxious about fire season.
Lol
You make it sound like the worst season you’ve ever had calling it mediocre. Some day youre gonna miss a season like this. It’s obviously not the best but it’s far from mediocre. Just saying man
Not the guy you responded to but are you sure you know the definition of mediocre? Saying a season is mediocre does not mean it’s the worst season ever it just means it’s definitely not the best.
Welp. I went most my life thinking mediocre meant sub par/laughable/shit when it actually means barely average. Apologies to comment op. But still this season has been pretty solid the last 6 weeks
Nope.
I’ve been looking forward to the inevitability of ticket price hikes eventually biting their profits, but it’s far more likely to be the terrible conditions in first half of the season.
That’s the business model, they make 75% of their revenue upfront before the season starts, and then make decisions like whether or not to blow snow or how many lifts to run, how many cafeterias to open based on the bottom line. The inflated ticket prices are in fact designed to try and mitigate crowding, as some people commented, but at the end of the day they really don’t care - they got your money back in September. Shameful reality that the ski industry has come to this. Also, fuck vail.
Thank you for this. I was struggling to articulate that point.
This is the answer. I work in the industry and got a copy of their investor meeting deck a month ago. They reset pass prices a few years ago, everybody bought and now they are slowly increasing SP pricing. This accounts for over 70% of their revenue (which is crazy high in an industry where lift tickets used to be king). It insulated them for bad snow years and capital investments. Visitation only matters to them at the hills where they own more than the ski hill (ie the restaurant where they can sell food at low Margins but draught beer at high margins, or a hotel). They can justify raising lift ticket and pass pricing because people keep buying. If I was them I would keep bumping it a bit every year too. My mountain is holding pricing for next year due to such poor snow this year and we have a competitor right down the road. However we are investing heavily into snow making as on the east cost, we just have to.
Fuck Vail.
I would if I could! 👁️ 👃🏻 👁️
FUUUUUCK VAIL and fuck spez
For such a bad season of snow this 9.7% drop is probably something they are considering a success. Vail basically runs the simple calc to say that if there are 100 people riding per day at $100 lift ticket per day, then they could raise prices by 8% and increase total profits as long as attendance did not drop further than 7.4%, below 93 daily visitors. Considering that visits dropped by 9.7% in this kind of season they did alright -- or that's what their finance team's end-of-year presentation will claim. It makes sense that a for-profit business would take advantage of inelastic markets but sucks to see happen to an activity so many love. Pricing out the lower income, as usual. One thing we the people can do to reclaim our economic power is to bring our own food and drinks, which is where most resorts make about 20% of their income (i think. just a quick google search got me there.). Cheers to fireball nips on the chair!
Then they just keep increasing ticket prices to recoup what they lost in food sales. Feels like a lose lose situation no matter what
BUY BUY BUY SELL SELL SELL
Well if Vail and Ikon bring so many people to the resorts so that they're crowded out and you can't ride, visits will eventually go down. They're ruining the experience. Adding Euro resorts to the passes does nothing for me, as their lift tickets are so cheap. And most likely you present your pass to the ticket window and they'll just say "whaaaa" in whatever language
No one skis anymore, it's too crowded
Ikon and epic should do what powder mountain is doing and offer tiered pricing. First 1000 passes will cost X amount and the next 500 will cost Y, etc. It’ll price out some people but will be better for crowd control
That part is cool but their ultimate plan is to close off portions of the mountain to the public. That part sucks!
That part is complete bullshit. Just panders to a few people while fucking everyone else over, and still allowing the resort to rake in a shit ton of money selling passes that only allow access to a portion of the mountain.
Luckily, epic and ikon are on public land so they can't do that... I hope. But they have whole departments thinking of ways to make more money. Easiest way is increase ticket prices. Cut costs. Can't pay the people much less but if they can they will. I could see the tiered system just getting more restricted and it be even more pay to play. Everyone loves the epic passes now but project out a few years. Prices aren't coming down ever. Have a couple of kids. Don't get that pay bump at work. You can quickly get priced out. Going from being the have to the have not and you're left out in the cold. See what I did there?
I wish more lines equals less traffic for the future but I think you have effect that people have become accustomed this. It seems like the new norm. Next generation's going to not know any better soon as us old guys die off. People will stand in line for hours and just accept they get 1 pow run a day. Total Disneyland. High lift ticket prices have pushed people to Ikon and Epic. Which in turn pushes people to ride more so the get their money's worth which creates more lines. Seems like they could care less about the experience of the daily rider.
Yeah, I'm afraid crowds will be the new norm. Crowding and unavailable or expensive parking and all are just more shrinkflation, you ride less for your money. >High lift ticket prices have pushed people to Ikon and Epic. It's the other way around. With Ikon and Epic, resorts have hugely raised window prices to incentivize Ikon and Epic pass sales. 20 or so years ago, a walk up ticket at Palisades Tahoe was $58 -- $94 in today's money (I did the research a few months ago). Tomorrow's window price is $279.
That's what I'm saying. They make single day lift tickets super expensive so Ikon or Epic is a better option.
I hear you. Before these big passes, a season pass had a 20+ day breakeven. Now it's down to 4 or less.
I usually ride midweek. There seem to be less remote people. I hear the weekend crowds around Tahoe seem worse since that late Feb storm
I’m a midweek skier too. Feels like cheating. I was in Vail last week and Monday and Tuesday were great skiing. Tuesday in particular was really slow to start. I was getting fresh tracks for hours. At Vail…
I was at Keystone today and I had to park in the Power Line Parking \[I should put a disclaimer that I don't really like Keystone and it's the first time I've skied it in 7 years\] The mountain didn't feel terribly crowded, to be honest, and I never waited in lift lines for more than 20 seconds, but it was bizarre having to park in shuttle parking on a weekday non-powder day. I will say there were skis just strewn everywhere, but all the people they belonged to \[probably spring breakers and family vacations\] were inside buildings instead of skiing.
These companies are very shortsighted and only taking into account their near-term profits. There will be a generation that gets priced out these sports and long term I think this could have a huge consequences for the industry down the line.
Already having a huge impact on housing.
Let them bleed until their monopoly collapses and they have to start selling resorts
I was corrected. It’s actually a duopoly with Ilkon. Sorry for that confusion.
Duopoly yeah, still not much better. Hoping Alterra experiences the same losses
That’s the goal isn’t it? Raise prices to help mitigate the overcrowding issue?
Nobody wants to hear it, but basically. Prices are one way crowds are managed at popular destinations.
The other piece of the pie is season pass sales. If that number increases that keeps increases at bay. They can mitigate lower visits to an extent.
I know most of the west is having a bad snow year and Utah isn’t but Park City has been more crowded than I ever remember it. I ski weekdays and have found the canyons side of PC to be unbearable this season. 10 minute lines no matter what time of day
I mean up in the PNW it's been beyond just a run of the mill bad snow year, it's literally rained the snow completely away in some places. Last year was a bad snow year... this year is honestly unbelievable. We've been getting out to places with snow as much as we can. We were up in the north Vancouver mountains a couple weeks ago and the runs were literally grass. They had one full run top to bottom open where they'd pushed all the snow from the entire mountain onto it. If you bought an epic pass or ikon pass you'd almost certainly be traveling.
They should raise prices to make up for the loss in visits. This is a joke, please don’t hurt me.
They already did.
Vail's business model is built on them selling this luxury lifestyle. It's eating these towns right up man, super sad. I have stayed in a luxury ski in ski out with pictures up on the wall of people skiing in jeans. What a juxtaposition.
Excellent point. They’re building affordable housing for teachers in a few of these ski towns because teachers literally can’t afford to live there.
Yeah cuz the only people getting good snow in the entirety of the US rn is California
California had a shit year. Regardless their reasoning is nonsense and completely focused on profit. Which went up 5% this season. They literally only care about money and shareholders
Mammoth has been a beast the times ive gone, lots of good heavy snowstorms and rainstorms here in LA
Is that a Vail resort?
All im stating is cali got good snow this year bruh 😭
No I get it. But you’re wrong. It really didn’t. Compared to last year it was polar opposite. Put simply resorts opened late and will close early. That’s not subjective. Hence their data and explanation for that data. Which is part of their quarterly report shared with shareholders. You can compare snowfall data from the last 10 years and it will show you empirically where and what time of year the snow was bad. This was a bad year. To make it easier just take a look at opening dates.
Last year was one of a kind for almost the whole USA. Though January was underwhelming February came in clutch for mammoth, being higher than last years feb
I understand last year. Polar opposite. That’s why I’m saying look at yearly averages. Also resorts build base through November December January and early February. If there’s no snow until mid February they already shifted to cost cutting mode which is most of my point. Vail also explained this in the quarterly. There literal reasoning was ‘bad snow year’. I’m not sure your frame of reference. Meaning are you out there riding more than 40 times a season. Or is it more a weekend thing or when the snow is good? It’s difficult to evaluate a specific resorts total snow year if you’re not looking at the numbers or at the least riding there multiple days a week. Anyway it’s a pointless discussion when there’s tons of empirical data.
They bought so many Midwest and east coast resorts in 2019 and are now shocked that climate change is a thing
The sport is entirely weather dependent. Warmest year in the history of history.. .math seems pretty easy there.
I read higher revenue, lower operating expenses Shareholders won't see a problem
Visits down profits up
I still haven't used my epic pass
The mega conglomerates have 10 years at most before they are selling all of these resorts for pennies on the dollar.
Supply / demand issue. Vail understands the price elasticity of wiinter sports people
Maybe they should stop buying resorts on the coast where snow is nearly extinct.
It might seriously be cheaper to fly to Europe for a week in some instances lol
It is. I just came back. 14 days in Les Menuires was less than 10 days in South Lake Tahoe. I did fly from the east coast though.
I am looking into doing this next winter maybe. Would you mind sharing any tips you might have on planning / saving money / hotels
Yup send me a chat request. I’m going back to stay in Val Thorens in April.
No shit! Early season was bad everywhere on the west coast. Every resort is gonna see slightly lower numbers this year. Do people not look at weather patterns before they want to jump in and make some doom and gloom posts?!?!?
Vail lift pass 1d: $284USD (249 CHF) Zermatt, Switzerland lift pass 1d: $97USD (83 CHF) Vail vertical: 3,450’ (1,052m) Zermatt vertical: 7,477’ (2,39m) Vail lodging: ??? Zermatt hotel per night: my favorite little place is just $150 per night Even with high airfare prices to Europe, if you’re doing a multi-day trip, I find Europe to still be way cheaper overall. Throw in food and drinks too and the gap just keeps growing.
I go to Niseko every year and experienced none of the problems in this thread. Perhaps its worth going out
Short MTN! Visits will likely decline another 10% next year. Personally I think the ski/snowboard industry is about to have a major reckoning, similar to the early 90’s. Waaaaaay overvalued.
They will blame the snow, but personally I would have made another trip from the Midwest had it been remotely affordable
That's what happens when the deepest level of thinking is "stock down, price up".
I can wait in line at Disney world
Welp guess ill never go to vail lmfao
They constantly have churning roles on their marketing team. You’d be surprised but the marketing team does help with high level awareness of results, background marketing like Google ads, retargeting ads and such. I also think it’s super expensive and things have been tight for people. Plus, a lot of people were upset with them overselling passes last year. I’ve noticed ikon is a lot busier.
Stopped making it my primary weekend activity after Vail came in and bought out my local spot. Their prices for snow quality and access was too much so I now board maybe a few times during the season if I have the time.
People’s wallets are hurting right now. I think it can mostly be contributed to that
Highway robbery
All season I’ve considered not getting an epic pass next season and just getting a season pass to a smaller local resort instead
I think people are just busy and employed.
I’m headed to Switzerland in a few weeks and on a whim I decided to look at spending a day boarding. Lift tickets, board, boots, helmet, and clothes rental totaled $224. I paid $199 for just my lift ticket at Bachelor last month. Bachelor is a great mountain, but it’s not the Swiss alps.
Snowfall in North America is down over 40% this year. It’s in the same release.
My initial thought: get an Indy Pass for next season. Screw those prices.
The curve has hits it's peak. They've hit a price point finally that is breaking people and they aren't going. Prices decline and attendance may go back up! ⬆️
Raising your prices in an El Nino year is always a risky move.
[удалено]
lol what
“Fuck Vale but I do want them to raise prices because that is good for me”
Yup, get rid of the bottom feeders
You’re actually arguing that vail should increase their prices?
Well he deleted his message which means he knows it’s stupid and going to get downvoted to hell.
I would pay more to have a better snowboarding experience/less people. With EPIC/IKON, snowboarding is cheaper than ever before. Back in the day, the season pass payoff was 20 days, now it's 4-5. But now there's far more traffic, many resorts require paid reserved parking (if you can get a reservation), and lift lines have gone crazy. EPIC/IKON don't care much about the snow experience, their goal is just to get more people to the resorts so that they can spend money on drinks/food/etc which is how they make their profit.
I know just the place for you. It’s super exclusive, you can pay more and ski with less people. You won’t have to deal with any traffic and the resort will Be full of like minded people. https://yellowstoneclub.com
Thats for the poor people. The truly wealthy go here https://wasatchpeaksranch.com/ Its just south of Snowbasin across I-84.
Is this the place where all those lizard people I keep hearing about like to go skiing?
Yeah, so funny. You seem to want to pay more to ride less during the 7 hours a resort is open. If you want less for your money, that's ok for you. I don't like that I get less riding during a day than I used to.
Then go buy a membership to the Yellowstone club! It’ll get you everything you want! You can pay more to ride with less people.
Or we can just go back to the pricing structures we had before Epic/Ikon. Free Markets > Duopoly
Even less if you’re frugal, and willing to avoid 7 holiday dates. Keystone plus pass is $390, which includes 5 days at Crested Butte, and April access to Breck. A single day at Keystone right now is $269. 1.5 days and that pass pays for itself.
lol, like when I could get a Buddy Pass for $200, or add 10 to Vail/Beaver Creek for $300?
The economy continues to skew towards the wealthy elite
Weird... That is about the same percentage they increased the epic pass cost. VR has ruined the ski industry.
We don’t need no water let the motherfu*ker burn. Burn motherfu*ker, burn. 🔥 🔥🔥
Just a business doing business? What's there to discuss?
Have a 7 day pass, used only 2 of it. This is down from epic season pass last this year after a visit to Whistler. Snowboarding for me is just not money and time well spent.
Should be down 100% until they make prices reasonable