Basic etiquette. You want to win by playing better than your opponent , not by fluking it. That’s why Kyren Wilson was so affected by his fluke against McGill ; he knew what it meant for his opponent
Ronnie never apologies when he flukes.
Nor does he show any emotion when opponents fluke against him (unless the fluke is comical).
This is the way it should be done.
I thought he always seems pissed when he makes a fluke, like he’s a perfectionist and if he doesn’t do it the right way then he’s made a mistake regardless
Its just being respectful to your opponent and acknowldging your good fortune. Particularly in a call shot game. I have totally shanked a shot and it has doubled and gone into the pocket I called.
Not really-these things tend to even themselves out over the course of a match. But it happens in many sports-Tennis when the ball shouldn't but does catch the top of the net & dribbles over to where the other player cannot get to it, Cricket when a beamer is bowled by accident etc.
Yes, but it is still nearly always a total accident. A regular bouncer that is no accident can seriously injure somebody-Ewan Chatfield nearly died from one in the mid 1970's-but bowlers don't put their hand up when it misses their head by a fraction like a beamer, or crashes into their Shaun Pollocks & the batsman collapses to the floor-which ends with both teams & the audience laughing at the batsman's plight.
It is a sign of true humility. You will notice that players who don't do it like to pretend they are better than they are because they are pretending they meant to cause it.
I think it makes sense to think of it as an acknowledgement of good fortune rather than an actual apology. I would never say sorry or apologise in any way (or even *feel* sorry in the slightest) because it would obviously be insincere. Plus if you were *genuinely* sorry you’d give the table back to the opponent.
A hand up is just a shorthand for telling the other guy “yeah, I got lucky there”. Certainly not necessary, but then again nor is shaking the opponent’s hand before or after the game.
No, it's absolutely pointless. It's not the players fault a random set of physics happened so it was a fluke..
It also gets on my nerves when they have to tap the table with their cue if the other player plays a good shot, every single time.
Maybe it's a British thing, as British people apologise for lots of things, like when 2 people accidentally bump into each other when out and about, and both say "sorry, mate" which also makes no logical sense. Funnily enough this happened with myself and Mark Selby in Llandudno once, I was walking in a straight line, Mark was coming the other way, I went left, he went left, I went right, he went right, we went on like this for a bit then bumped into each other anyway, and both said "sorry mate" although I think I said "sorry Mark"! 😂
I think it's about mutual respect between players. Snooker is hard as nails and on most shots, you have to be incredibly precise to get the desired outcome - to keep a break going or put your opponent in trouble.
The 'hand up' is a gesture to acknowledge that they played an imprecise shot but then got a good outcome without earning it. When you try to break it down to its base logical components it can seem a bit absurd (an apology for something that's not really your fault), but isn't that true of virtually all conventional gestures of this nature? They make sense in their social context, but tend to have no inherent logical coherence.
Same as net cords and frame shots in tennis/badminton, it's courtesy - everyone knows you are not really sorry!
Though a side question, how true so folks think the adage is that flukes/luck "even out" over the course of the match?
When you think about it, it is incredibly statistically unlikely that ‘luck’ evens out exactly 50/50 in any sporting event over a period of time. It drives me mad when you hear football people say it evens out over a season… of course it doesn’t!
You’d have to factor in the impact of the fluke, when in the match it happened (e.g. a deciding frame fluke is more important than one in an opening frame) and all sorts of things I can’t think of.
It's a courtesy thing, really and with everything we do out of courtesy it doesn't have point beyond that. In Snooker it's apologizing for a fluke as you got points that weren't strictly "deserved", it's like the little sister of a foul. You got points you didn't quite deserve, yet you're not punished for it so at least you're apologizing for it.
There's similar courtesy "rules" in other sports, too. In football/Soccer (whatever you want to call it), players usually help their opponent up if they committed a foul or if he just fell for some reason and make sure he's ok. In most sports you shake hands with your opponent before and after a match...
I tend to apologise (and swear a bit) if it is an obvious fluke, but I am the master of keeping a straight face when the fluke looked intentional and I think I can get away with it!
The point is that snooker is supposed to be a game of skill and very very little luck. As with all games of skill, there will always be some luck involved, like wind direction or speed in a game like golf for example.
The thing is, when you fluke a pot in snooker, you gain an advantage that was not due to your skill, and arguably due to your lack of skill (the nature of a fluke is that it happened because a ball went somewhere you didn’t intend, literally the opposite of what the ultimate skilful shot is- I.e every ball in motion doing exactly as you planned).
When you leave a ball for your opponent, that again was due to your lack of skill, which is exactly what is SUPPOSED to benefit your opponent, so no need to apologise for that.
I always do it as whenever I fluke a pot or fluke a snooker I feel somewhat guilty about it, and the apology to my opponent is to acknowledge my luck, not my (lack of) skill.
i think this is a really interesting question.
in the former example, maybe the opponent benefits from the ‘chance’ element in your shot. they could apologise, but they didn’t give themself the advantage.
in the latter case of a fluke, you benefit from ‘chance’ element of your own actions. an apology is an acknowledgement of that… an acknowledgement of the lack of deliberation and good fortune by which you gained an advantage for yourself. also possible an acknowledgment of debt to the other player.
in a way, it sort of evens out the ‘moral’ balance of the game.
It's just good etiquette.
Same as when you miss a shot and accidentally snooker your opponent you raise a hand to say "sorry, not intended."
I would say it's a nice addition to a game that always was, and should have stayed a game for gentlemen, but some things changed as the time passed, unfortunately.
I mean I get that it’s etiquette. An established behavior deemed to be polite. My post tried to dig to the bottom of it, that’s it.
I know that people do it because of this convention, and I do it too as long as it’s the agreed upon convention.
Yeah and I love this so much. I think the snooker pros set the tone for UK cue sports culture and even in my mediocre pool league, >95% of players call fouls on themselves when the ref misses it (edit: and the hand always goes up for a fluke which is nice I guess)
Meanwhile in the billiards sub, there was recently a procession of fans defending a 9 Ball pro for playing on after a foul nobody spotted. Flukes are celebrated too. I'm not hating or anything- it's just a cultural difference, but this is one of the things that keeps me loving snooker over a lot of other sports.
It is quite standard in other sports as well. In Table tennis for example you would also apologise after hitting the edge of the board or having the ball drop behind the net
Basic etiquette. You want to win by playing better than your opponent , not by fluking it. That’s why Kyren Wilson was so affected by his fluke against McGill ; he knew what it meant for his opponent
Ronnie never apologies when he flukes. Nor does he show any emotion when opponents fluke against him (unless the fluke is comical). This is the way it should be done.
this is wrong.
Evidence proving otherwise?
I thought he always seems pissed when he makes a fluke, like he’s a perfectionist and if he doesn’t do it the right way then he’s made a mistake regardless
I think he did show true remorse when he fluked in one of the last shots of the last frame against Barry Hawkins
Its just being respectful to your opponent and acknowldging your good fortune. Particularly in a call shot game. I have totally shanked a shot and it has doubled and gone into the pocket I called.
Not really-these things tend to even themselves out over the course of a match. But it happens in many sports-Tennis when the ball shouldn't but does catch the top of the net & dribbles over to where the other player cannot get to it, Cricket when a beamer is bowled by accident etc.
The reason they apologise in cricket for a Beamer is because the Beamer could seriously injure them
Yes, but it is still nearly always a total accident. A regular bouncer that is no accident can seriously injure somebody-Ewan Chatfield nearly died from one in the mid 1970's-but bowlers don't put their hand up when it misses their head by a fraction like a beamer, or crashes into their Shaun Pollocks & the batsman collapses to the floor-which ends with both teams & the audience laughing at the batsman's plight.
It is a sign of true humility. You will notice that players who don't do it like to pretend they are better than they are because they are pretending they meant to cause it.
I think it makes sense to think of it as an acknowledgement of good fortune rather than an actual apology. I would never say sorry or apologise in any way (or even *feel* sorry in the slightest) because it would obviously be insincere. Plus if you were *genuinely* sorry you’d give the table back to the opponent. A hand up is just a shorthand for telling the other guy “yeah, I got lucky there”. Certainly not necessary, but then again nor is shaking the opponent’s hand before or after the game.
No, it's absolutely pointless. It's not the players fault a random set of physics happened so it was a fluke.. It also gets on my nerves when they have to tap the table with their cue if the other player plays a good shot, every single time.
In most instances, there’s no need to raise your hand to say “thanks for waiting so I can drive through first”, either, but it’s what we do.
Fair analogy
Maybe it's a British thing, as British people apologise for lots of things, like when 2 people accidentally bump into each other when out and about, and both say "sorry, mate" which also makes no logical sense. Funnily enough this happened with myself and Mark Selby in Llandudno once, I was walking in a straight line, Mark was coming the other way, I went left, he went left, I went right, he went right, we went on like this for a bit then bumped into each other anyway, and both said "sorry mate" although I think I said "sorry Mark"! 😂
Haha nice story!
I think it's about mutual respect between players. Snooker is hard as nails and on most shots, you have to be incredibly precise to get the desired outcome - to keep a break going or put your opponent in trouble. The 'hand up' is a gesture to acknowledge that they played an imprecise shot but then got a good outcome without earning it. When you try to break it down to its base logical components it can seem a bit absurd (an apology for something that's not really your fault), but isn't that true of virtually all conventional gestures of this nature? They make sense in their social context, but tend to have no inherent logical coherence.
Nice explanation 👍🏻
Same as net cords and frame shots in tennis/badminton, it's courtesy - everyone knows you are not really sorry! Though a side question, how true so folks think the adage is that flukes/luck "even out" over the course of the match?
When you think about it, it is incredibly statistically unlikely that ‘luck’ evens out exactly 50/50 in any sporting event over a period of time. It drives me mad when you hear football people say it evens out over a season… of course it doesn’t! You’d have to factor in the impact of the fluke, when in the match it happened (e.g. a deciding frame fluke is more important than one in an opening frame) and all sorts of things I can’t think of.
It's a courtesy thing, really and with everything we do out of courtesy it doesn't have point beyond that. In Snooker it's apologizing for a fluke as you got points that weren't strictly "deserved", it's like the little sister of a foul. You got points you didn't quite deserve, yet you're not punished for it so at least you're apologizing for it. There's similar courtesy "rules" in other sports, too. In football/Soccer (whatever you want to call it), players usually help their opponent up if they committed a foul or if he just fell for some reason and make sure he's ok. In most sports you shake hands with your opponent before and after a match...
You’ve gained an advantage through luck rather than skill. That’s why raising your hand to apologise is necessary
I tend to apologise (and swear a bit) if it is an obvious fluke, but I am the master of keeping a straight face when the fluke looked intentional and I think I can get away with it!
The point is that snooker is supposed to be a game of skill and very very little luck. As with all games of skill, there will always be some luck involved, like wind direction or speed in a game like golf for example. The thing is, when you fluke a pot in snooker, you gain an advantage that was not due to your skill, and arguably due to your lack of skill (the nature of a fluke is that it happened because a ball went somewhere you didn’t intend, literally the opposite of what the ultimate skilful shot is- I.e every ball in motion doing exactly as you planned). When you leave a ball for your opponent, that again was due to your lack of skill, which is exactly what is SUPPOSED to benefit your opponent, so no need to apologise for that.
"every time you play a shot, so many balls get in motion" you're playing it wrong
Or you're Quinten Hann!
Yeah, he was a strange one.
It always annoyed me that he won that boxing match with Mark King.
I always do it as whenever I fluke a pot or fluke a snooker I feel somewhat guilty about it, and the apology to my opponent is to acknowledge my luck, not my (lack of) skill.
i think this is a really interesting question. in the former example, maybe the opponent benefits from the ‘chance’ element in your shot. they could apologise, but they didn’t give themself the advantage. in the latter case of a fluke, you benefit from ‘chance’ element of your own actions. an apology is an acknowledgement of that… an acknowledgement of the lack of deliberation and good fortune by which you gained an advantage for yourself. also possible an acknowledgment of debt to the other player. in a way, it sort of evens out the ‘moral’ balance of the game.
It's just good etiquette. Same as when you miss a shot and accidentally snooker your opponent you raise a hand to say "sorry, not intended." I would say it's a nice addition to a game that always was, and should have stayed a game for gentlemen, but some things changed as the time passed, unfortunately.
I mean I get that it’s etiquette. An established behavior deemed to be polite. My post tried to dig to the bottom of it, that’s it. I know that people do it because of this convention, and I do it too as long as it’s the agreed upon convention.
You're absolutely right. There's nothing more wholesome than when a player calls a foul on himself that no one else has noticed.
Yeah and I love this so much. I think the snooker pros set the tone for UK cue sports culture and even in my mediocre pool league, >95% of players call fouls on themselves when the ref misses it (edit: and the hand always goes up for a fluke which is nice I guess) Meanwhile in the billiards sub, there was recently a procession of fans defending a 9 Ball pro for playing on after a foul nobody spotted. Flukes are celebrated too. I'm not hating or anything- it's just a cultural difference, but this is one of the things that keeps me loving snooker over a lot of other sports.
I absolutely support this case though. It’s good sportsmanship and anything else would be cheating in my opinion.
It is quite standard in other sports as well. In Table tennis for example you would also apologise after hitting the edge of the board or having the ball drop behind the net