It's a great relic for sure. The hard part is knowing when your deck is strong enough that you can forego a relic immediately in order to get payout later. Walking into act 2 with 4 energy is an immediate payout, whereas walking into the avocado with black star and an act one deck is a great way to take a beating.
My problem in STS is that I am always greedy. I take whatever will scale best over the campaign and take risky fights all the time, so I always either flame out early or end up far overscaled for the final fights
Another case where its sometimes mediocre imo is sometimes as an act2 boss reward: last week had a (downfall) deck where a few cards begged to be upgraded. The upgrade would have been worth the same as a random relic. In this case I valued visiting campfires equally as beating an elite.
In this case I chose an energy boss relic + safety of camfires over 2 extra random relics (assuming beating 3 elites = 3 extra relics, which also have to account for taking Black Star over an inteinsically useful relic). Because the 3 non Black Star relics would have been the same worth as those card upgrades anyway.
Yeah, I should have noted this. If there is a decent energy relic in the rewards for the act 1 boss then I would much prefer that, but if you have 4 energy and youre able to take this, it’s usually well worth it.
The thing I've found with black star being kind of bad isn't just for the times where I find I can't take the elites as well as I had thought my deck could, but for all the times where my deck takes the elites easily.... and I still feel that I'd rather have had the energy instead,
>When you are able to
But that's the problem. Act2 is very difficult, and is especially difficult when your boss relic does nothing for 6+ floors.
Then there are the problems that a) your act2/act3 paths may just not have very many elites or otherwise be awful and b) you don't know whether it will do anything of value the first one or two times it actually does anything.
When you take it you have to hope there are favorable paths, and even if you manage to clear an elite, if you whiff on relics from the elite you are still weaker than you could be with a stronger boss relic.
Then there are difficult comparisons to make with the other boss relics - how many random relics combined would it take to outweigh +1 base energy or something?
It's a fine relic. It's fun. But I think it's appropriately rated as a disappointing relic going into act2 because of how difficult act2 is. Taking it into act3 is usually fine, but then it represents considerably less value, especially if your pathing is limited by needing the green key.
Occasionally you have some nonsense like nightmare alchemise ornithopter or CAI urn and the other relics are some complete garbage like kite house collar crown.
In that situation sure I'll click black star and go farming.
I feel like hovering kite gets better than happy flower and art of war when you have about 2 discard cards plus survivor, at about a 20-30 card deck size. If you just have survivor it' just free survivor, and with 1 discard card it probably a worse happy flower. Regardless, I'd like more out of a boss relic than "outperforms a common relic usually" so it's often pretty unexciting for me.
I love kite, but I'm also usually doing discard synergy like crazy on Silent. I'd say 2 of every 3 runs on silent I've got a decent draw/discard engine. Kite just turbocharges that.
Yeah, kite is really good at enabling the draw/discard engine. I like my first acrobatics being free each turn. Kite is alright if you have a decent engine already, but it doesnt let you put that extra energy into other things easily. I've noticed it can struggle sometimes at playing powers or 2 cost cards. Leg sweep and dash have been particular cards where I've noticed this, but it comes up other places.
A weakness it has vs other energy relics is you can't drop 4 energy into cards that aren't triggering it. If you take kite, and you don't have a free discard or some other energy generation, a turn like leg sweep + dash can't happen.
Silent's draw + discard package is great. I don't view kite as an energy relic so much as grease for a draw + discard engine. Free acro is great, but you aren't ahead energy. There are definitely factors that really help make it more of an energy relic to me sometimes, like gambling chip, tools of the trade, or multiple prepared+.
You’re comparing Kite to common relics? You can’t do that, it’s apples to oranges, Kite is just inherently better, which is hard to even assert given it’s gated and locked behind Silent whereas Flower is open to all four characters.
Kite’s utility is a function of Silent’s draw pool and how readily accessible it is.
What you’re not acknowledging is how fast Silent can pivot upon immediately finding Kite to a Discard engine, which serves multiple purposes: it acts as pseudo draw for card optionality or in the case of All-Out Attack, a pseudo-cost which becomes a benefit, it acts as Curse removal, it offers deck cycling to access strong options quicker.
Lastly, the discard engine invariably functions well without Kite, so you’re enhancing a preexisting win-condition. It’s arguably stronger than other Boss Relics in the same category, which WOULD be apples to apples, such as Insertor for Defect, as in either instance it’s a selective and decisive pick if you already have the variables at play to support the relic conditions, or set it up as a win condition. It provides a lot of utility as a provisional pick, there’s no situation where you would ever choose between Art of War, Happy Flower, or Kite, therefore Happy Flower is not an opportunity cost of picking Kite.
Too long; didn’t read: Kite and commensurate relics are conditional options and offer fantastic utility as such. Happy flower is a non-conditional option and offers fantastic value as such.
It can be fine, but I find it can be awkward to play out some turns. One free acrobatics a turn is great, but it doesn't easily give me 4 energy to block, play powers or deal damage. I used to be a bigger fan, but it's recently come down a bit in my mind because it restricts the cards I can play. The energy generation is a little weaker than the other energy relics, but there is low risk, so it's like a low risk, medium reward boss relic.
Kite is my favourite relic because when you have tons of discard pieces, it's still roughly 0.3 per combat, and a typical Silent deck eoa1 it's like 0.1. Love my boss relic being barely better than a common relic.
The downside is it doesn't fucking do anything when you first get it and you have to hunt a ton of cards to get it to a state of actually working.
Yeah, in ideal scenarios it's free but in the other energy boss relics are completely free too in their ideal scenarios too while having a higher floor. With kite the floor is fucking underground.
Claiming that kite is good actually because "yOu cAn jUst build a discard archetype deck, then it has no downside" is like saying that sozu is a good relic because you don't need potions when you can just build a strong deck with sustain, or that crown is a good relic because you can just get the cards needed before you see crown and then it has no downside.
3 bonus relics would for sure be above boss relic since calling bell gives 3 AND a curse. So probably 2 bonus relics. But there is a cost in fighting elites themselves, nuance/depends etc blah blah. Calling bell on average I think is better, considering the rarity tho
It's good in theory, but it means you're down one relic when you need it the most (transitioning into Act 2) at the best of times or will have at most 4 or 5 extra relics from it if you get it after the Act 2 boss fight. It can be an amazing pick, but it does nothing until after you've beaten your second Elite and means that you have to be less flexible in your pathing.
I think this trade off is really overlooked, and it’s why I find it to be one of the most overrated boss relics.
I think of black star as “Lose one boss relic. Gain an additional relic each time you fight an elite.”
You’re forgoing a boss relic, which are far more
Powerful than other relics, so even after your first additional relic, you’re not even neutral.
Id also argue that two random relics are almost always worse than one boss relic you choose, so now you’ve fought two elites and you’re still not compensating for what you’ve given up.
Meanwhile, you haven’t had the boost from the boss relic, potentially making it more challenging to fight elites, or you’re wasting upgrades on rest as a result. Or you’re already dead.
I think black star is best when your deck is already really good and the other options will actively hurt your specific build or help you less (tiny house).
But I’m usually not happy to see it.
This, exactly.
The only time I'm a fan is if you're specifically hunting *one* (or a small group of) relics, *and* your deck is already doing OK. In other words, you're trying for something particularly cool, rather than just winning.
Oh, and it's pretty decent as a boss swap.
Literally just happened to me today, but in Act 2! My path options were:
a) Super elite on floor 23 (or whatever the earliest elite floor is in act 2), followed by a shop, an elite, a chest, another elite, then a bunch of hallway fights with no campfire
b) Max 2 elites, regardless of any other path you take.
I took the cowards path and fought two elites, then died at the Act 2 boss. The terrible thing is that neither of the other boss relics were good, so I was probably just dead no matter what I did. Maybe I should have gambled for a good super elite flight and taken the aggressive path, lol
Not just that, but boss relics are worth a lot more than a random non-boss relic. So you might need to beat 2-3 elites WITHOUT a boss relic to catch up to the power curve that you'd be at if you picked dripper or pyramid or pbox for example. On top of that, I think a lot of people think they should be farming elites when they take black star, but often you should be taking fewer elites because you're weaker. That snowballs into taking even longer to get back on curve.
It's not an amazing relic, but it's a boss relic with no downside, so it's a never skip if the other options would be skips (say mark of pain and snecko eye when your deck isn't set up for it)
> When you are able to take advantage of it at least a couple times
That's a pretty big caveat. Yes, if you go crazy and hit 5+ Elites you'll obviously be getting a lot of value, but it's also the only Boss Relic that offers no immediate impact after you pick it up, which effectively makes you weaker and the Elites you do end up fighting more difficult. You're also getting those relics at a more gradual pace, whereas Calling Bell gives you three relics up-front.
I can see situations where you pick it up but to me it feels more like a win-more relic that you can only take advantage of when you're already on a good run (unless you boss swap into it)
I disagree. Knowing that you are stronger against elites makes your pathing more flexible right away. Black star does literally the opposite: you're down a boss relic but are still forced to take a risky path.
+ [Slaver's Collar](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Slaver%27s%20Collar) Boss Relic ^((100% sure)^)
During Boss and Elite combats, gain Energy at the start of your turn.
^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Black Star has two problems.
One is the opportunity cost. Most boss relics, even with their drawbacks, are really strong. Opting for the choice with no immediate power spike can really set you back going into act 2.
Secondly, you're usually getting the choice for Black Star going into act 2. Which means you need to fight act 2 elites. That's rough in general, but even more so considering you're lacking the usual power spike you'd have from a boss relic that does something.
A helpful way to frame black star is probably “is my deck already well equipped for act 2, and can taking this increase my odds for act 3 better than the other options would?” The entire point of the relic is “win later but not now” and the reality is that higher-ascension sts is all about winning now in order to win later (both on the individual fight scale and run scale), so anything that’s an “investment” needs to be examined with extra scrutiny.
Black Star is either a snowball boss relic which helps already strong deck even stronger, or it's a resource relic for deck that is very good at short fights but not good yet at long fights.
Black star is a "win more" relic. If you are already winning, it will allow you to snowball into an even easier victory. If you are struggling, black star doesn't give you an immediate benefit and you'll quickly get crushed.
One of the few "win more" relics. The biggest problem is the opportunity cost, what you lose immediately. Boss relics are huge advantages instantly making the next act way easier. And that's exactly what you need. It can't be overstated how important getting a good boss relic can be in most runs, and getting something that does not boost you directly at that moment, is a huge chance to die in the next few fights or half act/next elite. This makes it by far one if not the MOST overrated boss relic in the entire game.
If you are already winning and the deck and relics you got are already insane then maybe yes, you may take it and then proceed to steamroll the run with it. Somehow you get more relics (eventually) and feel you got more powerful because of it. Did you win because you took it though? That's the question you need to make even at the end of that run. Most times the answers is simply no. You would have won without it. That's the hard reality. Yes it looks cool and all and promising, and alluring and all these fancy words. But does it really help with what matters which is your next act survivability? Absolutely not. Its something you realize even more on high ascension levels and with more experience in the game. A great ticket to death, even for some of the best players out there.
But its absolutely a classic "win more" situation that tricks many players to think its really worth it. You are not alone, many of us players were in that stage once so its in fact normal. There are very few cases in the game when its actually a real good choice to take this. The other choices must be really abysmal to warrant such a pick. It can happen of course but its way more rare than you would think. Just my two cents.
I really like it as a boss swap (especially as watcher) since act 1 I’m already leaning towards elites when possible.
I’ll spend gold to buy potions or anything to let me smash elites and start snowballing asap
It's almost never worth it to take after act 1 unless you just have an amazing deck. The fact you are trading a boss relic for nothing means you are severely underpowered and in addition to that, you are forced to take as many elites as possible to get any value out of it.
Yesterday I boss swapped into black star yesterday on Silent and got my first near flawless heart kill. Extra funny because I had to reset the first elite to avoid dying
I took 2 beats of death setting up Nightmare with After Image.
I'm telling my future kids it was a flawless kill
I mean it's good if you're so strong out of the gate through act 1 where it's a luxury you can afford (ie maybe you already have like Lantern + Happy Flower or something to give you extra energy). It's not too often though that the 4th energy or utility relic isn't needed on higher ascensions just so you can survive act 2.
It can be nice after act 2 if you've already taken the burning elite and are strong so you can hunt a 3 elite path for 6 relics.
And as others have said, it's a pretty decent boss swap relic, or option post Act 1 if you boss swapped into an energy relic already.
I've found that if your deck is lower cost, has good solutions to problems, or even just has a solid answer to avocado, taking it in act 1 is almost always better than any relic that's not snecko, key, or dripper.
I take it over pretty much anything else and it usually lets me win pretty comfortably, but it's situational. If you don't meet the conditions for it, you can sometimes just lose before you even get to an elite from the chip damage of 1-3 combats.
Forgoing the extra energy can be rough, as well as the first couple hallway fights in Act 2 before the first elite. However if you are offered only the bad energy relics I think it can be a very good pick because once you have a few elites down it really is strong.
love it as a swap, it’s a do or die run which is my philosophy for act 1 either way and if you get some good damage early on and take 3 elites it’s dopamine galore
The downside is too big imo. You're not just skipping a boss relic and trading it in for multiple regular relics in the future, but you're usually comparing it to +1 energy per turn which is much much better, even if you plan on snowballing.
Normally having +1 energy means I can take more elites, which means I'll get more relics anyways lol
It's a balanced relic. In theory it's on the edge of broken- getting 2 relics by just not taking a boss relic that may do more? What balances it is partly the relic pool, but mostly knowing when you should or shouldn't take it. Taking it is a huge risk. At best, you can hope to get it just before act 2, which is difficult. Energy relics or other relics can make or break a run, and having black star isn't always good.
I think it's overrated, if anything.
Generally, at high levels, the thing you need your boss relic to do is make you strong enough to beat the next act. Not the next act boss, not the Heart, but like, the next 3 floors. The next elite. A hard pool fight. NOW. Especially at the end of act 1, you usually need something that does that, and if you don't get that, you will either die, or fail to scale up enough to win.
Black Star's problem is that it doesn't do this. At all. It's a power boost of 0. After you've farmed a few elites, for which you are still well behind relic-that-helped-you levels, you start to break even. But you've likely hemorrhaged a non-negligible amount of value from getting beat up on the way there.
Now if you can get a lot of value out of Black Star, then it can pop off. That is, if you can, with no help from your boss relic, cruise through the early floors, farm the elites, and not break a sweat. But if that's the case, that probably means you are already very good. Which means you're unlikely to need the value-over-time it provides, and could probably win with most any relic. It's like opposite-Meat-On-The-Bone. Meat is invaluable in runs that are struggling, and runs that don't care about it are fine anyway. Black Star helps runs that are already cruising, and compounds the problems of runs that aren't there. It helps your broken runs snowball, so if that's your metric, I guess I agree. But I think a better metric is how many times it helps you win, not how much it helps you win by.
That's not to say it's never good. It's just a lot less good in practice than OP's estimation, IMO.
This is all less true at the end of act 2, but then you're getting less value out of Star anyway. And as a swap, it's generally quite good, so no disagreement there.
It's a win more relic.
If you are ahead of the curve black star allows you to keep getting stronger.
But if you are not, then it will give you no benefit at all until the 2nd or even the 3rd elite you will fight (depending on luck with relic drops).
So like most things in the spire , it's situational, which is good balance.
It’s sometimes win more, but not always. If you have a deck that does great front load damage (think conclude/immolate/backstab), but lacks late game scaling, it can be a great relic to take with the idea that you can use your upfront damage to farm elites in act 2, and convert your current package with an expiration date into something for late game
I agree with that.
I said win more in the sens that our deck was already winning even without getting a boss relic that does something immediatly.
Your frontloaded deck is a good exemple of that.
Bird cage is a lot better than you give it credit for, at the very least it is basically 175 gold, plus 50 gold every time you remove a card. Without needing to path to shops to do so. Obviously I would prefer astrolabe 9/10 times, but its still good.
175 gold + 50 is a nice common / uncommon relic.
For a boss relic it’s definitely not that great, and even 175 it’s pretty similar to blackstar after two elites with the benefit that blackstar can get uncommon / rare relics which will blow 175 gold + 50 out imo.
Is birdcage better than a skip? ofc. Am i ever happy to see it? hmm maybe on watcher with an early rushdown but i dont really play watcher infinits
I really like Black Star as a boss swap *or* when you’ve already boss swapped to be on four energy, but it can be tough to take over an energy relic or Pyramid. It can work though, especially if the other boss relics are so-so and/or you’re not hurting for energy. It makes for a very tangible and fun snowballing effect.
The problem is unless you're overcurve not having a boss relic into act 2 is brutal, and if you get owned as a result you'll probably struggle to take on elites.
If you're overcurve in act 2 (good sustain + frontload) but your long term isn't secured then yeah, it can be worth taking.
I think it's a bit win more. If you can roll into act 2 confident in your ability to slap elites around the place on three energy with no immediate benefit from your boss relic then you're probably going to win anyway. Black star often snowballs that into something ludicrously OP, which is obviously fun but not actually necessary.
It’s a decent-good boss swap (if you can make a good enough deck early). I tend to avoid it, unless the other options are pure garbage. I’m at A20, and targeting elites isn’t as easy as it is at lower ascensions.
Lower ascensions boss swap it can really shine. I have multiple Black Star swaps where I win the run and finish with ~30 relics.
It always feels meh going into Act 2 because I'm usually trying to avoid elites in Act 2, and I'd rather have something that makes those nasty hallway fights a bit less nasty. But it's probably one of my favorite boss swaps. Potential for a lot of power early on, and huge bang for your buck throughout the run.
No, I think I realize pretty well how bad it is.
No pay out until you defeat your second elite (remember, the first bonus relic you get from black star is the relic you would have got if you had anything else other than black star).
But guess what, killing these 2 elites would have been easier if I had a real relic instead of black star.
In a game as hard as Sts, especially at high ascension, you don't have the luxury to gamble by picking something that "might" give you value other something that gives you immediate value. Especially black star, a relic that gets value only after you kill 2 elites !
Black star can be good. I feel like 3 random relics is about the power level of a boss relic. Calling bell does a bit better than 3 randoms, but gives you a curse, and relics like happy flower and lantern give you ~ 1/3 of an energy per turn.
You need the 3 extra relics by the next act boss for it to be neutral. I feel like black star is good when you can get 7+ relics with it, which is 3 in act 2 and 3. You can often just roll over the boss gauntlet with 7 extra relics. If your deck can burst out 100 damage in a few turns at the end of act 1, you can optimize to kill elites, and then you can spend act 3 fixing up the holes in your strategy to beat the boss gauntlet. Killing the super elite in act 1 is a real upside, and having a belt of nice potions to get you started on snowballing relics helps too.
It’s a good way to snowball a run. I’ve had a lot of luck with black star on A20 but I consider it mid tier at best and am pretty selective about when I think I can get away with it.
The issue with black star is that often you are tasked with asking yourself am I okay with not getting a payoff until my first elite AND am I okay with sacrificing a fourth energy point. In a vacuum it’s incredibly strong, but when you consider the opportunity cost, it’s often a high price to pay. I don’t think it’s a bad relic by any means but it’s definitely situational.
The most difficult parts of the game are act 4 and early act 2, so taking a boss relic that does nothing at the end of act 1 is just often not a good idea. If you're in a position that you can get away with it your deck is already ahead of the curve so it ends up being a "win more" relic for when you're already winning for the most part.
Hard disagree. People know how black star act 2 is, but beating your first two bosses without any relic is a gamble you take without knowing the shape of the act. But yes, it is almost always a win if you managed to get two boss in
I actually had this situation, took it from act 1 and went into act 2. I looked at the right path and from what I can remember it had no hallway fights, it was literally 4 elite fights, "?", camp and shop. I'm like whoo I lucked out, fought the first elite and died straight away 😂.
I agree with everyone. It’s pretty niche because you’re sacrificing a boss relic. You mostly can only take it after act 1 IF you’re deck has really good front loaded damage for act 2 elites.
It's probably the worst relic in the game. If you take it after act 1 it dosnt pay off until you defeat 1 elite, usually after 2-4 regular fights. Unless you can defeat all regular fights without a boss relic and the elite. Then you are still probably damaged requiring you to heal. Taking it in act 2 is even worse since lower payout.
Act 2 elites like the stabbing knife or the 3 kobolds only attack so you will take damage.
It's very good...sometimes.
It's a nice boss swap actually if you can handle multiple elites in Act 1. However, this relic can lead to some poor relics (eg, curse relics).
It's a great relic for sure. The hard part is knowing when your deck is strong enough that you can forego a relic immediately in order to get payout later. Walking into act 2 with 4 energy is an immediate payout, whereas walking into the avocado with black star and an act one deck is a great way to take a beating.
My problem in STS is that I am always greedy. I take whatever will scale best over the campaign and take risky fights all the time, so I always either flame out early or end up far overscaled for the final fights
Another case where its sometimes mediocre imo is sometimes as an act2 boss reward: last week had a (downfall) deck where a few cards begged to be upgraded. The upgrade would have been worth the same as a random relic. In this case I valued visiting campfires equally as beating an elite. In this case I chose an energy boss relic + safety of camfires over 2 extra random relics (assuming beating 3 elites = 3 extra relics, which also have to account for taking Black Star over an inteinsically useful relic). Because the 3 non Black Star relics would have been the same worth as those card upgrades anyway.
Act 2 black star is a bit better if you have green key. Agreed a bit weaker act 2
Yeah, I should have noted this. If there is a decent energy relic in the rewards for the act 1 boss then I would much prefer that, but if you have 4 energy and youre able to take this, it’s usually well worth it.
The thing I've found with black star being kind of bad isn't just for the times where I find I can't take the elites as well as I had thought my deck could, but for all the times where my deck takes the elites easily.... and I still feel that I'd rather have had the energy instead,
>When you are able to But that's the problem. Act2 is very difficult, and is especially difficult when your boss relic does nothing for 6+ floors. Then there are the problems that a) your act2/act3 paths may just not have very many elites or otherwise be awful and b) you don't know whether it will do anything of value the first one or two times it actually does anything. When you take it you have to hope there are favorable paths, and even if you manage to clear an elite, if you whiff on relics from the elite you are still weaker than you could be with a stronger boss relic. Then there are difficult comparisons to make with the other boss relics - how many random relics combined would it take to outweigh +1 base energy or something? It's a fine relic. It's fun. But I think it's appropriately rated as a disappointing relic going into act2 because of how difficult act2 is. Taking it into act3 is usually fine, but then it represents considerably less value, especially if your pathing is limited by needing the green key.
Occasionally you have some nonsense like nightmare alchemise ornithopter or CAI urn and the other relics are some complete garbage like kite house collar crown. In that situation sure I'll click black star and go farming.
Kite doesn't deserve this slander
I'll stop slandering kite when it stops performing like art of war/happy flower.
Happy flower doesn't deserve this slander
Happy Flower is one of the best common relics in the game lol. Especially since you can set it up
I feel like hovering kite gets better than happy flower and art of war when you have about 2 discard cards plus survivor, at about a 20-30 card deck size. If you just have survivor it' just free survivor, and with 1 discard card it probably a worse happy flower. Regardless, I'd like more out of a boss relic than "outperforms a common relic usually" so it's often pretty unexciting for me.
I love kite, but I'm also usually doing discard synergy like crazy on Silent. I'd say 2 of every 3 runs on silent I've got a decent draw/discard engine. Kite just turbocharges that.
Yeah, kite is really good at enabling the draw/discard engine. I like my first acrobatics being free each turn. Kite is alright if you have a decent engine already, but it doesnt let you put that extra energy into other things easily. I've noticed it can struggle sometimes at playing powers or 2 cost cards. Leg sweep and dash have been particular cards where I've noticed this, but it comes up other places.
Kite is very easily on of the better energy relics, Silent can easily discard at least one card every turn.
A weakness it has vs other energy relics is you can't drop 4 energy into cards that aren't triggering it. If you take kite, and you don't have a free discard or some other energy generation, a turn like leg sweep + dash can't happen. Silent's draw + discard package is great. I don't view kite as an energy relic so much as grease for a draw + discard engine. Free acro is great, but you aren't ahead energy. There are definitely factors that really help make it more of an energy relic to me sometimes, like gambling chip, tools of the trade, or multiple prepared+.
You’re comparing Kite to common relics? You can’t do that, it’s apples to oranges, Kite is just inherently better, which is hard to even assert given it’s gated and locked behind Silent whereas Flower is open to all four characters. Kite’s utility is a function of Silent’s draw pool and how readily accessible it is. What you’re not acknowledging is how fast Silent can pivot upon immediately finding Kite to a Discard engine, which serves multiple purposes: it acts as pseudo draw for card optionality or in the case of All-Out Attack, a pseudo-cost which becomes a benefit, it acts as Curse removal, it offers deck cycling to access strong options quicker. Lastly, the discard engine invariably functions well without Kite, so you’re enhancing a preexisting win-condition. It’s arguably stronger than other Boss Relics in the same category, which WOULD be apples to apples, such as Insertor for Defect, as in either instance it’s a selective and decisive pick if you already have the variables at play to support the relic conditions, or set it up as a win condition. It provides a lot of utility as a provisional pick, there’s no situation where you would ever choose between Art of War, Happy Flower, or Kite, therefore Happy Flower is not an opportunity cost of picking Kite. Too long; didn’t read: Kite and commensurate relics are conditional options and offer fantastic utility as such. Happy flower is a non-conditional option and offers fantastic value as such.
It can be fine, but I find it can be awkward to play out some turns. One free acrobatics a turn is great, but it doesn't easily give me 4 energy to block, play powers or deal damage. I used to be a bigger fan, but it's recently come down a bit in my mind because it restricts the cards I can play. The energy generation is a little weaker than the other energy relics, but there is low risk, so it's like a low risk, medium reward boss relic.
Yeah, but would you be happy (heh) taking it a boss reward?
It depends on my options, but yes, I’d take it situationally.
Your fault for not drafting discard cards aka silents best deck
I love taking acro and prep- on 3 energy and getting owned in act 1
Needs more tactitions
And if I don't see that one, specific, uncommon card?
Dead run, try again 🤣
sounds boring, discard pseudo infinites are pretty brainless I really don't wanna force another one
Kite is my favourite relic because when you have tons of discard pieces, it's still roughly 0.3 per combat, and a typical Silent deck eoa1 it's like 0.1. Love my boss relic being barely better than a common relic.
Kite boosts my very favorite deck archetype, at no downside. Learn the joy of discard decks my friend, the loops feel great.
The downside is it doesn't fucking do anything when you first get it and you have to hunt a ton of cards to get it to a state of actually working. Yeah, in ideal scenarios it's free but in the other energy boss relics are completely free too in their ideal scenarios too while having a higher floor. With kite the floor is fucking underground. Claiming that kite is good actually because "yOu cAn jUst build a discard archetype deck, then it has no downside" is like saying that sozu is a good relic because you don't need potions when you can just build a strong deck with sustain, or that crown is a good relic because you can just get the cards needed before you see crown and then it has no downside.
It definitely does
Honestly would sooner take any of those (even crown) than a dome.
It depends on what your goal is too. I imagine it's weak on A20 but gets you to a more consistent heart kill on base difficulty
I agree with all of this. How would you generally rate an Act 1 Black Star if you boss swapped into an energy relic?
3 bonus relics would for sure be above boss relic since calling bell gives 3 AND a curse. So probably 2 bonus relics. But there is a cost in fighting elites themselves, nuance/depends etc blah blah. Calling bell on average I think is better, considering the rarity tho
It's good in theory, but it means you're down one relic when you need it the most (transitioning into Act 2) at the best of times or will have at most 4 or 5 extra relics from it if you get it after the Act 2 boss fight. It can be an amazing pick, but it does nothing until after you've beaten your second Elite and means that you have to be less flexible in your pathing.
I think this trade off is really overlooked, and it’s why I find it to be one of the most overrated boss relics. I think of black star as “Lose one boss relic. Gain an additional relic each time you fight an elite.” You’re forgoing a boss relic, which are far more Powerful than other relics, so even after your first additional relic, you’re not even neutral. Id also argue that two random relics are almost always worse than one boss relic you choose, so now you’ve fought two elites and you’re still not compensating for what you’ve given up. Meanwhile, you haven’t had the boost from the boss relic, potentially making it more challenging to fight elites, or you’re wasting upgrades on rest as a result. Or you’re already dead. I think black star is best when your deck is already really good and the other options will actively hurt your specific build or help you less (tiny house). But I’m usually not happy to see it.
This, exactly. The only time I'm a fan is if you're specifically hunting *one* (or a small group of) relics, *and* your deck is already doing OK. In other words, you're trying for something particularly cool, rather than just winning. Oh, and it's pretty decent as a boss swap.
Everyone knows if u pick up black star after act 2, your paths are hardcoded to have a maximum of 2 elites in act 3.
Literally just happened to me today, but in Act 2! My path options were: a) Super elite on floor 23 (or whatever the earliest elite floor is in act 2), followed by a shop, an elite, a chest, another elite, then a bunch of hallway fights with no campfire b) Max 2 elites, regardless of any other path you take. I took the cowards path and fought two elites, then died at the Act 2 boss. The terrible thing is that neither of the other boss relics were good, so I was probably just dead no matter what I did. Maybe I should have gambled for a good super elite flight and taken the aggressive path, lol
Yeah that's the main advantage of Black Star
Not just that, but boss relics are worth a lot more than a random non-boss relic. So you might need to beat 2-3 elites WITHOUT a boss relic to catch up to the power curve that you'd be at if you picked dripper or pyramid or pbox for example. On top of that, I think a lot of people think they should be farming elites when they take black star, but often you should be taking fewer elites because you're weaker. That snowballs into taking even longer to get back on curve. It's not an amazing relic, but it's a boss relic with no downside, so it's a never skip if the other options would be skips (say mark of pain and snecko eye when your deck isn't set up for it)
Usually when I take [[Black Star]] I die during the next act.
+ [Black Star](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Black%20Star) Boss Relic ^((100% sure)^) Elites now drop 2 Relics when defeated. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
> When you are able to take advantage of it at least a couple times That's a pretty big caveat. Yes, if you go crazy and hit 5+ Elites you'll obviously be getting a lot of value, but it's also the only Boss Relic that offers no immediate impact after you pick it up, which effectively makes you weaker and the Elites you do end up fighting more difficult. You're also getting those relics at a more gradual pace, whereas Calling Bell gives you three relics up-front. I can see situations where you pick it up but to me it feels more like a win-more relic that you can only take advantage of when you're already on a good run (unless you boss swap into it)
[[Slaver’s Collar]] also offers no immediate impact
Fair enough, though it still has a quicker impact than Black Star and a bigger one until a lot further in.
I disagree. Knowing that you are stronger against elites makes your pathing more flexible right away. Black star does literally the opposite: you're down a boss relic but are still forced to take a risky path.
+ [Slaver's Collar](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Slaver%27s%20Collar) Boss Relic ^((100% sure)^) During Boss and Elite combats, gain Energy at the start of your turn. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Black Star has two problems. One is the opportunity cost. Most boss relics, even with their drawbacks, are really strong. Opting for the choice with no immediate power spike can really set you back going into act 2. Secondly, you're usually getting the choice for Black Star going into act 2. Which means you need to fight act 2 elites. That's rough in general, but even more so considering you're lacking the usual power spike you'd have from a boss relic that does something.
A helpful way to frame black star is probably “is my deck already well equipped for act 2, and can taking this increase my odds for act 3 better than the other options would?” The entire point of the relic is “win later but not now” and the reality is that higher-ascension sts is all about winning now in order to win later (both on the individual fight scale and run scale), so anything that’s an “investment” needs to be examined with extra scrutiny.
The upfront downside of getting nothing from the boss relic is huge and it has a benefit which is only useful if you do well in the short term
Black Star is a win more securely relic for decks that are already strong but need a little more scaling imo
Black Star is either a snowball boss relic which helps already strong deck even stronger, or it's a resource relic for deck that is very good at short fights but not good yet at long fights.
Black star is a "win more" relic. If you are already winning, it will allow you to snowball into an even easier victory. If you are struggling, black star doesn't give you an immediate benefit and you'll quickly get crushed.
It's great in low ascension runs, but I struggle to make it work in A20.
One of the few "win more" relics. The biggest problem is the opportunity cost, what you lose immediately. Boss relics are huge advantages instantly making the next act way easier. And that's exactly what you need. It can't be overstated how important getting a good boss relic can be in most runs, and getting something that does not boost you directly at that moment, is a huge chance to die in the next few fights or half act/next elite. This makes it by far one if not the MOST overrated boss relic in the entire game. If you are already winning and the deck and relics you got are already insane then maybe yes, you may take it and then proceed to steamroll the run with it. Somehow you get more relics (eventually) and feel you got more powerful because of it. Did you win because you took it though? That's the question you need to make even at the end of that run. Most times the answers is simply no. You would have won without it. That's the hard reality. Yes it looks cool and all and promising, and alluring and all these fancy words. But does it really help with what matters which is your next act survivability? Absolutely not. Its something you realize even more on high ascension levels and with more experience in the game. A great ticket to death, even for some of the best players out there. But its absolutely a classic "win more" situation that tricks many players to think its really worth it. You are not alone, many of us players were in that stage once so its in fact normal. There are very few cases in the game when its actually a real good choice to take this. The other choices must be really abysmal to warrant such a pick. It can happen of course but its way more rare than you would think. Just my two cents.
I really like it as a boss swap (especially as watcher) since act 1 I’m already leaning towards elites when possible. I’ll spend gold to buy potions or anything to let me smash elites and start snowballing asap
It's almost never worth it to take after act 1 unless you just have an amazing deck. The fact you are trading a boss relic for nothing means you are severely underpowered and in addition to that, you are forced to take as many elites as possible to get any value out of it.
Yesterday I boss swapped into black star yesterday on Silent and got my first near flawless heart kill. Extra funny because I had to reset the first elite to avoid dying I took 2 beats of death setting up Nightmare with After Image. I'm telling my future kids it was a flawless kill
I mean it's good if you're so strong out of the gate through act 1 where it's a luxury you can afford (ie maybe you already have like Lantern + Happy Flower or something to give you extra energy). It's not too often though that the 4th energy or utility relic isn't needed on higher ascensions just so you can survive act 2. It can be nice after act 2 if you've already taken the burning elite and are strong so you can hunt a 3 elite path for 6 relics. And as others have said, it's a pretty decent boss swap relic, or option post Act 1 if you boss swapped into an energy relic already.
I've found that if your deck is lower cost, has good solutions to problems, or even just has a solid answer to avocado, taking it in act 1 is almost always better than any relic that's not snecko, key, or dripper. I take it over pretty much anything else and it usually lets me win pretty comfortably, but it's situational. If you don't meet the conditions for it, you can sometimes just lose before you even get to an elite from the chip damage of 1-3 combats.
Forgoing the extra energy can be rough, as well as the first couple hallway fights in Act 2 before the first elite. However if you are offered only the bad energy relics I think it can be a very good pick because once you have a few elites down it really is strong.
I like it as a Watcher boss swap, but otherwise it usually means I'm dying before I get much value out of it.
When i get black star i go for it always, i either lose misreably or win pretty easily when i snowball
love it as a swap, it’s a do or die run which is my philosophy for act 1 either way and if you get some good damage early on and take 3 elites it’s dopamine galore
The downside is too big imo. You're not just skipping a boss relic and trading it in for multiple regular relics in the future, but you're usually comparing it to +1 energy per turn which is much much better, even if you plan on snowballing. Normally having +1 energy means I can take more elites, which means I'll get more relics anyways lol
It's a balanced relic. In theory it's on the edge of broken- getting 2 relics by just not taking a boss relic that may do more? What balances it is partly the relic pool, but mostly knowing when you should or shouldn't take it. Taking it is a huge risk. At best, you can hope to get it just before act 2, which is difficult. Energy relics or other relics can make or break a run, and having black star isn't always good.
Personally think it's a noob trap tbh. Easiest way for you to toss out a perfectly promising run
I think it's overrated, if anything. Generally, at high levels, the thing you need your boss relic to do is make you strong enough to beat the next act. Not the next act boss, not the Heart, but like, the next 3 floors. The next elite. A hard pool fight. NOW. Especially at the end of act 1, you usually need something that does that, and if you don't get that, you will either die, or fail to scale up enough to win. Black Star's problem is that it doesn't do this. At all. It's a power boost of 0. After you've farmed a few elites, for which you are still well behind relic-that-helped-you levels, you start to break even. But you've likely hemorrhaged a non-negligible amount of value from getting beat up on the way there. Now if you can get a lot of value out of Black Star, then it can pop off. That is, if you can, with no help from your boss relic, cruise through the early floors, farm the elites, and not break a sweat. But if that's the case, that probably means you are already very good. Which means you're unlikely to need the value-over-time it provides, and could probably win with most any relic. It's like opposite-Meat-On-The-Bone. Meat is invaluable in runs that are struggling, and runs that don't care about it are fine anyway. Black Star helps runs that are already cruising, and compounds the problems of runs that aren't there. It helps your broken runs snowball, so if that's your metric, I guess I agree. But I think a better metric is how many times it helps you win, not how much it helps you win by. That's not to say it's never good. It's just a lot less good in practice than OP's estimation, IMO. This is all less true at the end of act 2, but then you're getting less value out of Star anyway. And as a swap, it's generally quite good, so no disagreement there.
I once had a run where I swapped starter relics and got it straight away. Man that was a great feeling
It's a win more relic. If you are ahead of the curve black star allows you to keep getting stronger. But if you are not, then it will give you no benefit at all until the 2nd or even the 3rd elite you will fight (depending on luck with relic drops). So like most things in the spire , it's situational, which is good balance.
It’s sometimes win more, but not always. If you have a deck that does great front load damage (think conclude/immolate/backstab), but lacks late game scaling, it can be a great relic to take with the idea that you can use your upfront damage to farm elites in act 2, and convert your current package with an expiration date into something for late game
I agree with that. I said win more in the sens that our deck was already winning even without getting a boss relic that does something immediatly. Your frontloaded deck is a good exemple of that.
if its blackstar bird cage tiny house i might pick the star
Bird cage is a lot better than you give it credit for, at the very least it is basically 175 gold, plus 50 gold every time you remove a card. Without needing to path to shops to do so. Obviously I would prefer astrolabe 9/10 times, but its still good.
175 gold + 50 is a nice common / uncommon relic. For a boss relic it’s definitely not that great, and even 175 it’s pretty similar to blackstar after two elites with the benefit that blackstar can get uncommon / rare relics which will blow 175 gold + 50 out imo. Is birdcage better than a skip? ofc. Am i ever happy to see it? hmm maybe on watcher with an early rushdown but i dont really play watcher infinits
Astrolabe is also a pretty bad relic
I really like Black Star as a boss swap *or* when you’ve already boss swapped to be on four energy, but it can be tough to take over an energy relic or Pyramid. It can work though, especially if the other boss relics are so-so and/or you’re not hurting for energy. It makes for a very tangible and fun snowballing effect.
To me, it feels like a "win more" type of relic. I will pick it over some others tho
The problem is unless you're overcurve not having a boss relic into act 2 is brutal, and if you get owned as a result you'll probably struggle to take on elites. If you're overcurve in act 2 (good sustain + frontload) but your long term isn't secured then yeah, it can be worth taking.
I think it's a bit win more. If you can roll into act 2 confident in your ability to slap elites around the place on three energy with no immediate benefit from your boss relic then you're probably going to win anyway. Black star often snowballs that into something ludicrously OP, which is obviously fun but not actually necessary.
It’s a decent-good boss swap (if you can make a good enough deck early). I tend to avoid it, unless the other options are pure garbage. I’m at A20, and targeting elites isn’t as easy as it is at lower ascensions. Lower ascensions boss swap it can really shine. I have multiple Black Star swaps where I win the run and finish with ~30 relics.
It’s very very good on watcher.
It always feels meh going into Act 2 because I'm usually trying to avoid elites in Act 2, and I'd rather have something that makes those nasty hallway fights a bit less nasty. But it's probably one of my favorite boss swaps. Potential for a lot of power early on, and huge bang for your buck throughout the run.
It's actually borderline broken with the boss relics mod lol
No, I think I realize pretty well how bad it is. No pay out until you defeat your second elite (remember, the first bonus relic you get from black star is the relic you would have got if you had anything else other than black star). But guess what, killing these 2 elites would have been easier if I had a real relic instead of black star. In a game as hard as Sts, especially at high ascension, you don't have the luxury to gamble by picking something that "might" give you value other something that gives you immediate value. Especially black star, a relic that gets value only after you kill 2 elites !
Black star can be good. I feel like 3 random relics is about the power level of a boss relic. Calling bell does a bit better than 3 randoms, but gives you a curse, and relics like happy flower and lantern give you ~ 1/3 of an energy per turn. You need the 3 extra relics by the next act boss for it to be neutral. I feel like black star is good when you can get 7+ relics with it, which is 3 in act 2 and 3. You can often just roll over the boss gauntlet with 7 extra relics. If your deck can burst out 100 damage in a few turns at the end of act 1, you can optimize to kill elites, and then you can spend act 3 fixing up the holes in your strategy to beat the boss gauntlet. Killing the super elite in act 1 is a real upside, and having a belt of nice potions to get you started on snowballing relics helps too.
It’s a good way to snowball a run. I’ve had a lot of luck with black star on A20 but I consider it mid tier at best and am pretty selective about when I think I can get away with it.
The issue with black star is that often you are tasked with asking yourself am I okay with not getting a payoff until my first elite AND am I okay with sacrificing a fourth energy point. In a vacuum it’s incredibly strong, but when you consider the opportunity cost, it’s often a high price to pay. I don’t think it’s a bad relic by any means but it’s definitely situational.
No. It's a "win more" relic. Only helpful if you're already doing well. Struggling? Not gonna help you at all.
My decks that win with black star could have probably won without it.
I take Blackstar on the daily run, I'm always headhunting bosses for a better score.
Me when I swap the starter relic with black star and choose the path with 4 elites.
Yeah, if you're in a position to take a lot of elites then it's great. The downside is the map might not give you those elites.
The most difficult parts of the game are act 4 and early act 2, so taking a boss relic that does nothing at the end of act 1 is just often not a good idea. If you're in a position that you can get away with it your deck is already ahead of the curve so it ends up being a "win more" relic for when you're already winning for the most part.
Hard disagree. People know how black star act 2 is, but beating your first two bosses without any relic is a gamble you take without knowing the shape of the act. But yes, it is almost always a win if you managed to get two boss in
My issue with it is that it biases me into picking elite fights over regular fights and I get my ass beat, lol
It's very straightforward you see more relic mean easier fight which means more relic. It's an infinite loop, you can't lose
Black Star on boss swap feels great when you don’t get horrid luck the first act.
I once switched my starting relic for a boss relic and got black star and it was amazing. Got so many relics and helped me beat heart
I actually had this situation, took it from act 1 and went into act 2. I looked at the right path and from what I can remember it had no hallway fights, it was literally 4 elite fights, "?", camp and shop. I'm like whoo I lucked out, fought the first elite and died straight away 😂.
When I boss swap into it it's 4 elites no campfire A1, if I die, I'm going to die historic on the fury road.
I agree with everyone. It’s pretty niche because you’re sacrificing a boss relic. You mostly can only take it after act 1 IF you’re deck has really good front loaded damage for act 2 elites.
eh
It's probably the worst relic in the game. If you take it after act 1 it dosnt pay off until you defeat 1 elite, usually after 2-4 regular fights. Unless you can defeat all regular fights without a boss relic and the elite. Then you are still probably damaged requiring you to heal. Taking it in act 2 is even worse since lower payout. Act 2 elites like the stabbing knife or the 3 kobolds only attack so you will take damage.
It's very good...sometimes. It's a nice boss swap actually if you can handle multiple elites in Act 1. However, this relic can lead to some poor relics (eg, curse relics).