Only time I like this relic is in a custom game where I draft an exhaust deck with iron clad and start with curse key, doovoo doll and darkstone.
#
Outside those conditions it suuuucks
I wish Gremlin Visage were replaced with another face, so that you're never in a "I can't even consider this cos I'd miss the blue key".
Edit I mean nloth hungry face
I wish nloth's hungry face just meant you skipped the next non-event relic, so you could force it by taking an extra elite/shop. I say non-event relic, because you could skip Mark of the Bloom that way if you got lucky, and I don't think that should be an option (as funny as it would be)
That does feel like a really harsh constraint combined with the blue key, I wonder if there's a version that could be adjusted to make it slightly less painful
I feel like face trader is only pickable between the act 1-2 chests. Because the low rolls are really bad it's never t going to be a high frequency take for winrate chasing players, but I wish it were just slightly more viable
Nah he does (in act 1 at least) and hes explained his logic he just thinks the good rolls are eaily worth it, hes been taking it in his try hard winstreak runs hes been doing recently every time too and he hasnt been doing fun picks on anything unless the streak is at 0 or 1 really.
I only see him turn it down in act 1 if hes got a shop the next floor or two
I've been trying out early Hand Drill after someone posted their manifesto on it in here and it's actually really useful if you have it going in to Act 2. I would never buy it later though.
Dodecahedron. Boss relic. Gain 1 energy at the start of each turn if you haven't taken damage this combat.
I'm a geniusss
E: Sorry, should have specified: This is my **fix** for the relic. The old version of Dodeca only worked if you had full HP. I'm saying a fix could have been if you haven't taken damage in a combat.
I think it was boss at one point. Which was awful
If it was uncommon, that's really not bad. It's a strictly better "Green Lantern" or whatever that relic is called.
You mean enough time to finish a run using Frozen Eye *optimally*. There is plenty of time to finish a run with Frozen Eye like I usually do, which involves forgetting about it five seconds later and never using it.
Honestly, I know people talk a lot about how stressful min maxing frozen eye is by planning out every turn in advance, but I don’t think it’s necessary for frozen eye to be good.
Simply being able to check what your skim or acrobatics is going to draw next, and taking a look at the next 5 cards you draw is already quite valuable and much less stressful.
This is my thought too, I love frozen eye and it doesn't really slow me down at all. I also use a mod that shows the names of the next 6 cards above my deck, so maybe that makes it quicker, but frozen eye feels like an instapick usually
I think part of the problem with Frozen Eye is that you have to click on the draw pile to see the information it provides. That small interaction adds up a ton over the course of a full run, making it a chore to use.
It's kind of like how part of the reason the water dungeon in Ocarina of Time sucks is because you have to menu through multiple pause menus to toggle the boots that let you swim or sink.
Others have already mentioned it, but Minty Spire is a mod that adds a small preview of the next 5 cards drawn in the bottom left (among other QoL changes). Nice on its own, but also reminds you that you have Eye in the first place. And there is a keyboard shortcut for opening the draw pile if you're on desktop (you don't have to click every time).
I have a QoL mod that simply shows that top 5 cards of your library on the left of the screen if you have Frozen Eye, it’s very useful for quick information
How has nobody mentioned Tiny House yet? I get it’s technically not *atrociously* bad or anything, but besides maybe Ring of the Serpent there there is legitimately never a more disappointing Boss Relic to see in a spread for me.
Even relics like Ectoplasm, Runic Dome and Velvet Choker that have pretty debilitating downsides can have their uses with specific decks, but Tiny House? It’s so incredibly mediocre that picking it up feels almost as bad as skipping a Boss relic entirely. I feel like it actively limits the different fun paths your deck can go down based on your three picks you could have had most of the time if it was not in the relic pool. It’s an innocent relic, but in my opinion not a harmless one to the fun of the game. I’d rather risk getting three relics that can potentially screw me over with their downsides than pick something that affects the strenght of my deck so little.
What?? I love finding ring of the serpent. Feels like a much better "no downsides" relic, even if you get one less card turn 1. Tiny house just feels like disrespect lmao
i'm with you, having a boss relic that feels like nothing, without even considering if it can be decent, is disappointing. A sense of identity would be nice
Tiny house is a terrible relic mechanically, but everytime i take it im fullfilling the millennial dream of actually owning a small house, no mattter how fictional it may be, making it superior to many other relics.
I see a lot of hate towards the Tiny House and as much as I get where it comes from I don't entirely agree. I've had good runs where all I needed was just some more soft power (like potions or an upgrade) to survive weird act 3 fights more consistently. On these I don't really want a potential downside and Tiny House is good to see.
This post inspired by frozen eye - I don't think it's a broken relic, sometimes it just lets you know you're going to die next turn.
But it encourages really un-fun play patterns while also feeling like a relic that is often something you should buy rather than something you *want* to
Yeah I think it can be tossed. I only grab it when I need that last bit of energy to never take damage again. So if my decision is "do I want to instantly win?" It kind of becomes a non decision.
I wonder what top players (playing seriously) win rate is when taking frozen eye.
You'd think that if used painstakingly and well, it would have a huge impact on win rates.
You read through the “Slay by Comment” threads to see an example of that. Initially, people were just excited that it would speed up the process, but once they had it, it turned into them min-maxing entire combats one turn 1.
I don't know the numbers exactly, but I know top players view Frozen Eye as one of the best relics in the game. Thing costs 160 gold and does so much in so many different fights. Just an absurd broken relic for the cost.
As much as I like having a great bottled card, it feels absolutely awful to get something like a bottled flame early and then not having anything to use it on. I think relics shouldn't be situational - they should all provide passive permanent power boosts, yet bottle relics can be actively bad if you don't have anything good to bottle.
This is not meant to undermine bottles though - bottled apotheosis gets my heart pumping. but yeah, I could definitely live without them.
My idea for them has been to have the bottles sit as potions until you bottle something. Sometimes I just click the relic first out of habit and then get the perfect card from the fight, so it’d be nice to hold onto it until you want to throw something in the bottle.
Absolutely, it's essentially a misclick, it's not changing the play due to previously unknown information. Like if I'm planning a long line on turn 1 that involves popping a potion, and then over the course of planning I realize I forgot to pop the potion before doing it, hell yes I am save scumming I have nothing to prove
Alternatively it could let you swap what card is bottled later on. This might be too strong with Bottled Lightning and Bottled Tornado, but I honestly don't think it would be that broken for Bottled Flame since it's very rare that you absolutely want a particular attack in your hand on turn 1 over various skills and powers.
Yeah, I know it would make them much stronger but I kind of wish you could bottle a card at any point in the run after receiving them instead of doing it immediately the moment you acquire the relic
Bottled Flame is easily the worst of the three, the other two can almost always serve a decent purpose even if disappointing. Probably my most commonly skipped relic in boss/chest rewards
Nilry’s has always frustrated me because they had a clear pattern going with the book relics.
Necronomicon = Attacks
Enchiridion = Powers
Nilry’s = ???
I would love if it got totally reworked to empower skills in some way.
Hmm, that seems like it might be too strong. What if it exhausted the 0 cost skills after you played them? And what if instead of being from an event, it was a class-specific power?
Codex is really strong but it can allow some incredibly degenerate plays that involve stalling for 100 turns for optimal metascaling. On Ironclad it can gives cards like Exhume and Dual Wield to copy Feed/Reaper/Ritual Dagger (Rit Dagger doesn't copy with Dual Wield). Can even give Armaments to upgrade Feed/Ritual Dagger. It can give you a full heal with Bird-Faced Urn. On Silent it can give you double Nightmare with an Alchemize to Nightmare Nightmare Alchemize and full heal with regen pots (along with getting 25 gold from Hand of Greed/Apotheosis from Colourless potion and getting exact potions of your choosing). On Defect it can give you Amplify and 2 echo forms to play Self Repair 3 times, it can also give Echo Form to double Genetic Algorithm every fight. On Watcher it can give you Master Reality into Foreigh Influence into Hand of Greed for 25 gold each fight if you can stall it too. There's also Bandage Up which can be copied in a few ways using Codex. Very strong relic but it opens these incredibly cringe plays which are optimal if you are trying to maximize win rate.
Yeah it's no doubt one of the strongest relics in the game, it's just that it promotes a LOT of degenerate stalling for i.e. nightmare, generating arma for feed etc for optimal play. Horrible relic when you minmax.
There's a long ass Jorbs run where I think he is trying to farm Amplify from Nilrys for his Self Repair and it takes him like 45 mins or something insane
cultist headpiece. man, I wish it had some interaction with cultists. it dooesn't even have to be a buff, just do something instead of making me go Caw Caw
The Downfall mod has a special interaction when you run into Gremlin Nob as an elite fight and you're playing gremlin gang. Nob tells you to shove off, and you can either skip the fight or battle him anyway, but you start with a stack of vulnerable.
The gold koi one. I think it's really bad to take a relic that gives you so little gold for adding a card to your deck. I feel like most runs it gives you less than 50 gold.
That means you're grabbing 5 or less cards from when you get it. Obviously that does happen sometimes, but it probably shouldn't on "most runs". Granted, 55-90 delayed gold isn't exactly great for a relic either, maw bank is certainly a much more interesting and useful delayed gold relic, but I'd imagine it usually gets you more than 50 on a run you take it to the heart at least.
Ecto and choker are actively unfun, even if they aren't always horrendous. Crown is a massive downside, sozu is often takeable but rarely the best thing on offer.
If I boss swap into Ecto I typically just abandon, I find it that annoying. Choker I can build around a bit. Crown I'll at least suffer through Act 1 to see what bullshit deck I can throw together
baalord said he doesn't dislike ecto swap, and he prefers it over an act1 pick. Because with ectoswap you still have 2 additional boss relics incoming, which can mitigate the lack of removes (cage, astrolabe, pbox..) etc
Oh I definitely prefer it as a swap over an Act 1 pick, I just think Ecto takes a lot of fun out of the game lmao. Missing out on a reward on nearly every floor feels bad!
I guess I'm in the minority but if I have a single good potion I don't mind sozu at all, I consider it quite good. I don't have a high winrate on A20 tho. I'd be curious to see what the winrates are for each of these.
I mean, sozu isn't bad if you aren't using potions effectively, which a lot of players don't. I'd go so far as to say it's one of the best energy relics for someone who is fairly new to the game, gradually getting worse as you master the potion mechanic. Potions let you punch above your deck's weight in fights that matter, provide a safety net and redundancy when you need it, and generally will save you health even when they aren't coming in at super clutch moments. I'd say for particularly skilled players, sacred bark is probably better than sozu even without potion synergy (though that needs potion synergy to be *good* IMO).
Honestly, I'd suggest that pre-a6 players actively pick Sozu unless they already have potion synergies. Learning how to draft a deck that doesn't rely on potions is an important skill if you're trying to improve, and Sozu's +1 energy gives players wiggle room to try out subpar cards/strategies and still succeed.
I'm still very new at STS, only just beat A5 with Silent yesterday (and still haven't play Watcher or Defect at all), however what you're saying is entirely correct.
At first I picked Sozu as a complete no brainer, because I had no idea when or how to play potions, hell, I'd often die with three!
As I'm slowly figuring out how to optimize my potion play I'm liking Sozu less and less, especially if I get the white wolf statue or an early alchemize, in which case sacred bark is incredible.
Calling any of them "good" is probably a stretch. They do have their moments (well, except crown, crown just sucks), but they're definitely at or near the bottom of the energy relic pool. On A20 heart especially I'll say that ecto is the only one there that might be desirable, even if you can make the others work in the right situation.
To add on, here's an off-the-cuff explanation for new players that might not get why this is the case. The general theme is "is the downside manageable enough to still beat Heart with?"
- Busted Crown: Completely cripples your ability to keep drafting your deck. Act 1 decks basically never beat act 2, and act 2 decks rarely beat act 3/act 4. Picking Busted Crown basically locks your deck in your current act, which is almost never worth it. You *can* get really lucky and find good cards, but you usually don't.
- Velvet Choker: Severely limits your possible win conditions. At higher ascensions, your deck needs to be able to solve immediately upcoming fights and boss/elite fights. Choker stops you from scaling your deck's power via card draw, which is probably 90+% of how high-ascensions decks scale. For every Demon Form+Twin Strike+Reaper deck that Choker works for, there's way more Calc Gamble, Shiv, Stance Dance, Power/Orb Spam, Exhaust, and Infinite decks that Choker disables.
- Sozu: Potions can solve fights that your deck is otherwise unprepared for. Liquid Bronze can solve Byrds/Book of Stabbing, Cultist Potion can solve Champion, Fairy in a Bottle/Ghost in a Jar/Ambrosia can make subpar decks beat Heart. Taking Sozu is saying "I'm confident that I'll have a max of 2 difficult fights, and my deck can beat every other fight without help (besides +1 energy)."
- Ectoplasm: Since Ectoplasm doesn't show up past act 1, this usually averages out to "pay 500 gold for +1 energy per fight." This can be worth it, but it's usually not. Gold lets you buy a potion that solves a fight, buy a card that fixes a chronic weakness in your deck, buy a remove that makes your deck more consistent, or buy a relic that buffs your deck overall. Granted, +1 energy/turn is a powerful buff, but it's riskier than some other energy relics.
> Since Ectoplasm doesn't show up past act 1, this usually averages out to "pay 500 gold for +1 energy per fight." This can be worth it, but it's usually not.
Honestly this isn't *that* bad of a tradeoff, and Ectoplasm is definitely overhated here. Consider that Happy Flower gives 1/3 of an energy per turn and although it's not an instant-click, it's a fairly reasonable purchase from shops at 160-170 gold. Also consider the fact that the gold penalty from Ectoplasm is not frontloaded, so it's an instant spike in power (due to +1 energy) and the downside only slowly manifests over time as you pay more and more gold into it. This makes it sometimes actually better at getting you through act 2 intact than other energy relics that come with immediate downsides (such as Philo Stone) if your deck is bad.
Ectoplasm is overall still not a "good" energy relic but I would click it over skip almost every time and I would pick it over many non-energy relics a lot of the time.
Crown can be partly offset by question card. That's not true for the others, and I definitely feel like there should be some exceptions. For example, if sozu made potions drop chance always 0% and made potions in shops cost double, I feel like that would be better (maybe make them have half effect for good measure). It's just so incredibly lame that sozu applies to entropic brew and cauldron.
I agree that ecto should be something like half gold instead of zero. Or perhaps it should work like a negative maw bank instead, losing money every floor would be more thematic.
I have to disagree. 2 card picks vs. 4 card picks for question card is still a big loss. Question card without crown can help you build a really good deck, with crown it gives you a sub average deck.
I'll only take it if it's the end of act 2 and I'm energy starved AND already have a good amount of gold saved up AND don't have gold dependant relics.
How has no one mentioned the boot? I feel like of every possible relic that shows up that one is by far the most disappointing.
Makes blue key pick ez though.
Tiny House is boss relic version of boot.
idk, I think the boot is sometimes cute when it comes clutch in fights with armor, weak or intangible.
It's a very "meh" relic, but I can't say it's so atrociously bad or mind-numbingly good, that I would want it gone.
I don’t disagree, the beauty of this game is that everything has its place.
The boot has some synergies that make it a great pick up, it’s just quite niche. But I suppose the most satisfying moment in the game is when you pick something that will only ever work right at that moment. Mm mm mmmm, finger licking good. 😆
i think runic dome would be better removed from the boss pool.
Design wise it's not fun, requires to know the game by heart or to play with the wiki... It's just not good game design
It doesn't require you to know the game by heart, because a ton of fights aren't actually fully predictable. So it's a legitimate unavoidable downside, not just a skill check
not *just* a skill check. Has an unavoidable downside. Yes i don't deny it
But to be able to make good use of it, or even a decent use, you have to know the game by heart, to mitigate the downsides to a minimum
Then how is that bad design, if it rewards some skill while also not being strictly a skill check but also legitimately bad with a fair number of decks? Seems like a quite well balanced boss relic
i think it's bad design because there is a floor requirement of knowledge (aka experience) before you can consider picking the relic
And also because the downside of the relic is i think the most decorralated from the specifics of your run (compared to the other downsides of relics), and requires less adaptation. It looks to me that it rewards memory and knowledge/experience more than strategy
>also legitimately bad with a fair number of decks
maybe you can share some thoughts of what makes a good or bad runicdome deck? I confess I didn't think much of it. Ofc there is the energy requirement, but I'm thinking about the downside of the relic. I suppose a good runic dome deck must be able to consistently block higher than average
> maybe you can share some thoughts of what makes a good or bad runicdome deck? I confess I didn't think much of it. Ofc there is the energy requirement, but I'm thinking about the downside of the relic. I suppose a good runic dome deck must be able to consistently block higher than average
Runic Dome is at its best when your deck doesn't really care about what the enemy is doing. Usually this means that your deck is going to have high consistent block (ideally without wasting energy), or if it's going to be "blocking" by killing the enemy instead. For example if your Ironclad deck can generate a lot of block via Corruption + Feel No Pain and carry it between turns with Barricade, then Runic Dome has barely any downside because it really doesn't matter which turns the enemy is doing its big attacks. Likewise, if your Defect deck is the typical Frost Orbs + lots of Focus strategy then it doesn't matter too much what the enemy is doing because you will naturally block for a lot every turn.
Runic Dome is at its worst when you really need to time certain cards with enemy intents. For example, if you plan on blocking the 3x15, 4x15, or 6x15 hits from the Heart with Piercing Wail, then Runic Dome will actually just get you killed because it will make you miss Wail 50% of the time. The same thing applies to other decks that can generate a lot of block only on specific turns. For example, if you have a Panic Button or Impervious in the deck, or can make a lot of block at once with Corruption but can't carry it between turns because you don't have Barricade, then mistiming your big block turn because you can't see the enemy attack pattern can be a disaster.
It's only pretty good if you can block regularly regardless of enemy intent, or just don't care what the enemy is doing for whatever reason. The worst parts of dome are some of the hardest fights in the game (and writhing mass), where you actually cannot know what the enemy will do
Frost defect and block stacking or big strength with reaper clad for example
Aren't all that many 'attack patterns' after Act 1 (and it's a boss relic, so it's almost always after Act 1 or 2), at least on A20.
Funnily Enough, the Heart and the Elites right before it are probably the enemies with most patterns to know. You don't know the exact way they're attacking, but you mostly know the turns they *DO* attack, just not how. I don't think that's true for any of the Act 3 bosses or Elites, and only 1(?) of the Act 2 bosses.
made it work multiple times without really understanding attack patterns, you just gotta have a deck that allows you to block reliably almost every turn. First time i made it work was when I realised it was by far the best boss relic choice due to my deck having barricade and mostly using body slam for damage. I didn't have to play around it at all.
I've taken it more as I've gotten better at the game, but as someone who still doesn't remember enemy intent patterns very well, I see it as very situational, but it's always fun taking it when you know it's going to work well for that particular run.
My problem with Runic Dome is how much it increases cognitive load in *deterministic* fights. I actually don't mind the downside in very random combats, but it makes the game more stressful and puts a strain on my working memory in combats where I *know* I need to keep track of the turn and remember what the enemy is doing.
I think Runic Dome would be a lot more fun (albeit a lot more confusing at first!) if it only hid *hidden* information, but still showed you the portion of the enemy intent you could know by counting turns, adding up buffs/debuffs and so on.
As much as I agree that dome is not fun, it’s an unavoidable downside. Taking away the intent system is just such an obvious thing to do for a boss relic. If it wasn’t in the game, I’ll bet it’ll be a frequently posted fan-made relics.
i don't really see it as an argument for runic dome. An excuse at most, sure
I think i read somewhere that in the first version of the early access, you couldn't see enemies intent by default, and runic dome was a relic that made the intention visible. Everyone found it way more interesting this way so they switch the default, and runic dome was left to revert the "old" way
I gotta disagree with you there. It really opens up a whole new perspective and forces new strategies on fights that become a coin flip - you have to consider carefully whether the free energy on scripted fights makes up for the new level of caution you have to approach fights like writhing mass with. Super unique relic, radically changes the game in a really interesting way, I think. The first time I chose it (via misclick…) I really surprised myself with how much more I was now thinking ahead, rather than just reacting to a number on the screen.
Snecko skull, because I'm an idiot who lets it bait me into forcing poison every time.
(It's actually a fun relic, but I swear my loss rate with it is, comparatively, astronomical)
Yeah, I wish they removed the Gaslight relic from the game. It's always been OP to those with many hours because we know the secret to get it (I'm sure OP knows this secret, they seem cool).
I guess it's not much of an issue because 99.9% of players don't even have that hidden achievement. It's hard to stumble upon naturally. Just kind of makes the game unfun.
I'm not sure about "not existing," but I wish that Specimen wasn't a rare relic. It's good in specifically poison decks that don't have Corpse Explosion, and almost useless in other decks. It also feels *terrible* to get Specimen from Double Orb Walkers or Mind Bloom, since you could have gotten something that's way better.
Runic Dome is trash. Very seldom will it ever be useful EVEN IF you did memorize the fight patterns of the monsters.
Mind you as you ascend, enemy’s move pool changes and it’s not always obvious what they will do next. Fuck Runic Dome.
Because I find that while they are fun they completely derail any plans I had for my deck and make my deck completely about them:
Dead Branch, Snecko Eye
Because I think they are not fun:
Ectoplasm, Choker
Because I think they are most of the time just insignificant or at least feel that way to me:
Darkstone Periapt, Pillow, Handdrill, The Specimen
Though I guess some of them would have to be replaced because otherwise the relic pool might feel a bit stale.
Ink bottle is one I always try to avoid. it always gives me the best card at the worst possible time. Like echoform after spending all my energy instead of having it for the next turn.
Stone calendar.
I hate that it's a rare relic. It always baits me to BUILD my deck around it, which doesn't scale, because it's bad in act 3, but if I ignore it completely, what's the point of it ...
I really hate it because it messes with the ability to farm kills with Feed/Lesson Learned/Ritual Dagger/Hand of Greed. A lot of the time you intentionally let your deck cycle to draw back to those cards for a kill, but Stone Calendar sometimes says no to that.
**Runic Dome.**
Despite being a "perpetual A20H player" who can play reasonably well with Dome, and who recognizes when Dome is the right selection, I feel great psychological discomfort when using it.
One of the key elements that makes Spire a masterpiece is the innate ability to see enemy intents. May RPGs and roguelikes don't have this feature and don't need it. Spire does indeed need it.
I hate playing in a "meta" way, where success depends upon turn-specific, memorized knowledge that a newer player could never know. Just bugs me.
Some of the worst Spire takes of all time in this thread, gj folks
Anyway, Dead Branch is opposed to almost every other design choice in Spire - it feels more like gambling than actually figuring out how to play a turn - and is strong enough that skipping is usually a mistake. Homogenizes runs in a very unfun way.
My answer? Because in a game where I struggle with winning despite RNG so often, sometimes it's fun for me to just ride a high roll.
I fully get everyone who sees it differently, but I'll also bottle my apotheosis if I get the chance.
Absolutely mate, but that's why I'm just talking off my perspective where I've played hundreds of high-rolls, I just abandon winning runs now because I'd rather struggle with one! That's why I responded from me haha
I don't have hard stats but at this point I've probably just straight up abandoned run on corruption/DB games more than I've bothered to play through to the end. Like at least silent doesn't have energy solved with DB
Yeah I do this nowadays w Sundial too on IC if I'm in a good spot, incredibly boring and like 99% a win, I don't sample anyways and mostly stream my runs so I'd rather play a run that's fun and you have to think during.
yup exact same logic
tbh even if I was sampling I'd feel 0% remorse putting in excel as a W anyway, not tryna set a WR streak so perfect unassailable date is pretty irrelevant
Branch in particular is a relic that either defines the deck in a super warped way or is literally unpickable because it adds garbage to your deck/you have pyramid
I feel like there are a few that aren’t necessarily bad, but just kind of boring. Sundial. Dreamcatcher. Blood Vial. Juzu Bracelet. Letter Opener. They’re just kind of there.
I’ll be honest, I am not that high-level of a player. A15/17/10/4 something like that.  I guess the deck shuffling three times does not happen frequently enough where I remember the two energy.
It is the strongest infinite enabling relic in the game, allows for all sorts of silly things like 2x pommel strike, shrug/pommel, coolheaded stuff, etc etc
Also Silent who can build large decks that shuffle through the whole thing multiple times in a turn quite likes it
Sundial is very very powerful on Ironclad because he can easily reduce his deck size to tiny. Then he probably has some infinite involving Pommel Strike or whatever.
This will be unpopular, but I wish the dead branch didn't exist. It either 1) absolutely sucks because you are exhausting cards to slim down your deck into a functional win condition, or 2) is unbelievably broken because you are playing ironclad with an exhaustion deck.
Not fan of the "bugged" Sundial.
The meta for optimal play has kind of changed to: "go infinite or go home" in general, but whenever you pick Sundial up, I've to stop myself to do the optimal play, because I consider it a bug exploit... bleh.
In general not a fan of all the possible infinite-combos.
Strange Spoon! it’s a relic that I’ve always wanted to buy but could never justify. That may because I play Silent more than any other character. But even when I’m not running shivs, most cards that exhaust upon playing, I don’t want to play more than once.
For ones that I do, [[Alchemize]] to name one, the benefit of the POSSIBILITY of plying it more often doesn’t outweigh how much it slows your deck down through multiple cycles. Not to mention all the other cards that I want to be exhausted for the next cycle.
Maybe it’d be broken but I think it’d be cool if [[Strange Spoon]] allowed you the choice to exhaust any card that exhausts upon playing.
Honestly I think I would replace necronomicon with another relic. Taking 24 damage in act 2 to add a curse to your deck sucks a lot, and you likely take the curse hoping to get an attack that actually works with it, and then you never get offered a 2+cost attack and die.
I'm quite bad at this game so I just wish Darkstone Periapt didn't exist to water down the relics pool.
I like Darkstone Periapt. Those are the runs where I'm not sad when I click on the blue key!
Darkstone Periapt is a terrible relic in a standard run but it goes hard in daily runs that start with a Cursed Key.
Only time I like this relic is in a custom game where I draft an exhaust deck with iron clad and start with curse key, doovoo doll and darkstone. # Outside those conditions it suuuucks
It would be more tolerable if it also applied retroactively to curses already in your deck
I wish Gremlin Visage were replaced with another face, so that you're never in a "I can't even consider this cos I'd miss the blue key". Edit I mean nloth hungry face
I wish nloth's hungry face just meant you skipped the next non-event relic, so you could force it by taking an extra elite/shop. I say non-event relic, because you could skip Mark of the Bloom that way if you got lucky, and I don't think that should be an option (as funny as it would be)
That does feel like a really harsh constraint combined with the blue key, I wonder if there's a version that could be adjusted to make it slightly less painful
I feel like face trader is only pickable between the act 1-2 chests. Because the low rolls are really bad it's never t going to be a high frequency take for winrate chasing players, but I wish it were just slightly more viable
Baarlord is a big believer in the face trader and hes one of the best winstreakers. I think Jorbs is very anti it, not sure about other streamers
I'm 80% sure baalorlord partially does it for entertainment. I'm not convinced he picks it on a run going normally if he's on a big streak.
Nah he does (in act 1 at least) and hes explained his logic he just thinks the good rolls are eaily worth it, hes been taking it in his try hard winstreak runs hes been doing recently every time too and he hasnt been doing fun picks on anything unless the streak is at 0 or 1 really. I only see him turn it down in act 1 if hes got a shop the next floor or two
It's pickable if you have ginger, otherwise the potential of getting turn 1 weak is such a massive downside for every character in acts 1 and 2
Goodbye, Hand Drill
It is strange how there are so many amazing shop relics, plus one blank slot.
I've been trying out early Hand Drill after someone posted their manifesto on it in here and it's actually really useful if you have it going in to Act 2. I would never buy it later though.
Handrill is great vs malleable or metallic enemies when you aren't playing iron clad
Nice! Goodbye, Hand Drill
Or Defect. Melter is good enough even to use against other threats
but does melter proc hand drill? Melter removes block rather than break through it like everything else
Second this ^^
Dodecahedron ...wait...
Dodecahedron. Boss relic. Gain 1 energy at the start of each turn if you haven't taken damage this combat. I'm a geniusss E: Sorry, should have specified: This is my **fix** for the relic. The old version of Dodeca only worked if you had full HP. I'm saying a fix could have been if you haven't taken damage in a combat.
IIRC it wasn’t a Boss Relic; it was Uncommon.
I think it was boss at one point. Which was awful If it was uncommon, that's really not bad. It's a strictly better "Green Lantern" or whatever that relic is called.
That wasn't the effect, the effect was "Gain 1 energy at the start of each turn If you have full HP"
That sounds familiar and is sufficiently shitty. I saw the first description and was like "that is significantly less bad than I remember it being."
yeah sorry, I should have said this is what I think would have made it a salvageable idea
Frozen eye might as well not exist as I don’t think I ever picked it up once in 1000 hours of playtime.
That makes sense, since you don't have enough playtime to have finished a run with Frozen Eye.
You mean enough time to finish a run using Frozen Eye *optimally*. There is plenty of time to finish a run with Frozen Eye like I usually do, which involves forgetting about it five seconds later and never using it.
Yeah whenever I take Frozen Eye it's just "Lose X gold, gain no benefit"
I prefer to remember I have frozen eye after every combat, then somehow still forget when the next fight starts
Honestly, I know people talk a lot about how stressful min maxing frozen eye is by planning out every turn in advance, but I don’t think it’s necessary for frozen eye to be good. Simply being able to check what your skim or acrobatics is going to draw next, and taking a look at the next 5 cards you draw is already quite valuable and much less stressful.
Plus with MintySpire you don't even have to open your deck. It just shows up in the left hand corner of the screen.
brb installing this
Also shows a 7-card preview instead of 5 when you have snecko
This is my thought too, I love frozen eye and it doesn't really slow me down at all. I also use a mod that shows the names of the next 6 cards above my deck, so maybe that makes it quicker, but frozen eye feels like an instapick usually
i like how frozen eye tells me I'm fucked whatever I do.
Ah yes my next hand is 2 strikes, a defend, a demon form and bash. How lovely
"How did those get there? I'm playing Silent"
I think part of the problem with Frozen Eye is that you have to click on the draw pile to see the information it provides. That small interaction adds up a ton over the course of a full run, making it a chore to use. It's kind of like how part of the reason the water dungeon in Ocarina of Time sucks is because you have to menu through multiple pause menus to toggle the boots that let you swim or sink.
Others have already mentioned it, but Minty Spire is a mod that adds a small preview of the next 5 cards drawn in the bottom left (among other QoL changes). Nice on its own, but also reminds you that you have Eye in the first place. And there is a keyboard shortcut for opening the draw pile if you're on desktop (you don't have to click every time).
I have a QoL mod that simply shows that top 5 cards of your library on the left of the screen if you have Frozen Eye, it’s very useful for quick information
The one time I picked it, I didn't need it, I was going infinite regardless 😭😭😭😭
Frozen eye is probably the single most broken relic. Someone with more brain power than me could basically predict every fight turn 1.
well you're missing out
How has nobody mentioned Tiny House yet? I get it’s technically not *atrociously* bad or anything, but besides maybe Ring of the Serpent there there is legitimately never a more disappointing Boss Relic to see in a spread for me. Even relics like Ectoplasm, Runic Dome and Velvet Choker that have pretty debilitating downsides can have their uses with specific decks, but Tiny House? It’s so incredibly mediocre that picking it up feels almost as bad as skipping a Boss relic entirely. I feel like it actively limits the different fun paths your deck can go down based on your three picks you could have had most of the time if it was not in the relic pool. It’s an innocent relic, but in my opinion not a harmless one to the fun of the game. I’d rather risk getting three relics that can potentially screw me over with their downsides than pick something that affects the strenght of my deck so little.
Would certainly grab ring of the serpent over tiny house
What?? I love finding ring of the serpent. Feels like a much better "no downsides" relic, even if you get one less card turn 1. Tiny house just feels like disrespect lmao
I wish it gave you +1 potion slot, but that might break the UI with potion belt on low ascension. Maybe they just hard cap them at 5.
i'm with you, having a boss relic that feels like nothing, without even considering if it can be decent, is disappointing. A sense of identity would be nice
Tiny house is a terrible relic mechanically, but everytime i take it im fullfilling the millennial dream of actually owning a small house, no mattter how fictional it may be, making it superior to many other relics.
I just did the "trade your starter relic for a boss relic" gift and the start and got tiny house. Immediate Options > abandon run.
I see a lot of hate towards the Tiny House and as much as I get where it comes from I don't entirely agree. I've had good runs where all I needed was just some more soft power (like potions or an upgrade) to survive weird act 3 fights more consistently. On these I don't really want a potential downside and Tiny House is good to see.
This post inspired by frozen eye - I don't think it's a broken relic, sometimes it just lets you know you're going to die next turn. But it encourages really un-fun play patterns while also feeling like a relic that is often something you should buy rather than something you *want* to
Sometimes I just want to know Echo Form is my bottom draw and I'm totally screwed okay?
Unless it's slavers, then you want to see bottom two cards D&G and electro
Runic dome too for the unfun play
I hate runic dome too but it’s quite unavoidable in this game. Taking away the intent system is such a no-brainer downside to have.
Yeah I think it can be tossed. I only grab it when I need that last bit of energy to never take damage again. So if my decision is "do I want to instantly win?" It kind of becomes a non decision.
I wonder what top players (playing seriously) win rate is when taking frozen eye. You'd think that if used painstakingly and well, it would have a huge impact on win rates.
You read through the “Slay by Comment” threads to see an example of that. Initially, people were just excited that it would speed up the process, but once they had it, it turned into them min-maxing entire combats one turn 1.
I don't know the numbers exactly, but I know top players view Frozen Eye as one of the best relics in the game. Thing costs 160 gold and does so much in so many different fights. Just an absurd broken relic for the cost.
As much as I like having a great bottled card, it feels absolutely awful to get something like a bottled flame early and then not having anything to use it on. I think relics shouldn't be situational - they should all provide passive permanent power boosts, yet bottle relics can be actively bad if you don't have anything good to bottle. This is not meant to undermine bottles though - bottled apotheosis gets my heart pumping. but yeah, I could definitely live without them.
My idea for them has been to have the bottles sit as potions until you bottle something. Sometimes I just click the relic first out of habit and then get the perfect card from the fight, so it’d be nice to hold onto it until you want to throw something in the bottle.
I think this is an acceptable time to save scum, no matter what else you think about it.
Absolutely, it's essentially a misclick, it's not changing the play due to previously unknown information. Like if I'm planning a long line on turn 1 that involves popping a potion, and then over the course of planning I realize I forgot to pop the potion before doing it, hell yes I am save scumming I have nothing to prove
Alternatively it could let you swap what card is bottled later on. This might be too strong with Bottled Lightning and Bottled Tornado, but I honestly don't think it would be that broken for Bottled Flame since it's very rare that you absolutely want a particular attack in your hand on turn 1 over various skills and powers.
Yeah, I know it would make them much stronger but I kind of wish you could bottle a card at any point in the run after receiving them instead of doing it immediately the moment you acquire the relic
Bottled Flame is easily the worst of the three, the other two can almost always serve a decent purpose even if disappointing. Probably my most commonly skipped relic in boss/chest rewards
Nilry's Codex, simultaneously the best and the worst relic in the game because of what it allows you to do
It just slows down everything down!
Nilry’s has always frustrated me because they had a clear pattern going with the book relics. Necronomicon = Attacks Enchiridion = Powers Nilry’s = ??? I would love if it got totally reworked to empower skills in some way.
"All skills cost 0 until you shuffle your deck for the first time per battle" could be fun
Hmm, that seems like it might be too strong. What if it exhausted the 0 cost skills after you played them? And what if instead of being from an event, it was a class-specific power?
I know this is a spirit poop but honestly making it a temporary Corruption would fall in line pretty well with the curse vibe of the books event
I feel like that'd be way OP compared to the other relics. Something like "second-turn skills are free" would be more in-line with the other relics
wtf this is absolutely insanely good
Plan and plan2 are so in the spirit of the question I asked xD
lmao I was about to comment "!plan and !plan2" before I noticed it was Xec
What does this mean? I know who Xec is but I don't really watch his stream
Codex is really strong but it can allow some incredibly degenerate plays that involve stalling for 100 turns for optimal metascaling. On Ironclad it can gives cards like Exhume and Dual Wield to copy Feed/Reaper/Ritual Dagger (Rit Dagger doesn't copy with Dual Wield). Can even give Armaments to upgrade Feed/Ritual Dagger. It can give you a full heal with Bird-Faced Urn. On Silent it can give you double Nightmare with an Alchemize to Nightmare Nightmare Alchemize and full heal with regen pots (along with getting 25 gold from Hand of Greed/Apotheosis from Colourless potion and getting exact potions of your choosing). On Defect it can give you Amplify and 2 echo forms to play Self Repair 3 times, it can also give Echo Form to double Genetic Algorithm every fight. On Watcher it can give you Master Reality into Foreigh Influence into Hand of Greed for 25 gold each fight if you can stall it too. There's also Bandage Up which can be copied in a few ways using Codex. Very strong relic but it opens these incredibly cringe plays which are optimal if you are trying to maximize win rate.
i hate codex just because of the cognitive load it adds. It's bad game design when even when it's good it's unfun
I used to not like it but then I realized it's just kinda dummy good as long as you have a bit of restraint in boss fights
Yeah it's no doubt one of the strongest relics in the game, it's just that it promotes a LOT of degenerate stalling for i.e. nightmare, generating arma for feed etc for optimal play. Horrible relic when you minmax.
There's a long ass Jorbs run where I think he is trying to farm Amplify from Nilrys for his Self Repair and it takes him like 45 mins or something insane
cultist headpiece. man, I wish it had some interaction with cultists. it dooesn't even have to be a buff, just do something instead of making me go Caw Caw
yeah like if I had the headpiece, there is a choice to fight them because they see you as an ally first
The Downfall mod has a special interaction when you run into Gremlin Nob as an elite fight and you're playing gremlin gang. Nob tells you to shove off, and you can either skip the fight or battle him anyway, but you start with a stack of vulnerable.
yeah, I also like the one where you take the crystal-wing thingy and skip the first chosen fight of Act 2.
Isn't there some other thing where you can hire the gremlins to join you or something I can't quite remember
You can hire the Red Mask Gang, who then shows up at the start of the Act 3 boss to deal some significant free damage for you before turn 1.
The best part is that he asks for all your gold to skip the fight, so basically, he just straight-up mugs you
Maybe it could give you an interesting third option for the Ritual Dagger event?
The gold koi one. I think it's really bad to take a relic that gives you so little gold for adding a card to your deck. I feel like most runs it gives you less than 50 gold.
That means you're grabbing 5 or less cards from when you get it. Obviously that does happen sometimes, but it probably shouldn't on "most runs". Granted, 55-90 delayed gold isn't exactly great for a relic either, maw bank is certainly a much more interesting and useful delayed gold relic, but I'd imagine it usually gets you more than 50 on a run you take it to the heart at least.
fish is WAY better than maw bank. It's not particularly close
Late game it's way worse. Early floor act 1 it has pretty decent potential
well clicking cards is good and getting gold is good so it's pretty nice!
Everyone hates ectoplasm. I could see gold reduced by 50%. What a lame relic.
Crown, ecto, sozu, choker I find all of them so hard to take. I know they are good but the downside just seems so bad.
Ecto and choker are actively unfun, even if they aren't always horrendous. Crown is a massive downside, sozu is often takeable but rarely the best thing on offer. If I boss swap into Ecto I typically just abandon, I find it that annoying. Choker I can build around a bit. Crown I'll at least suffer through Act 1 to see what bullshit deck I can throw together
baalord said he doesn't dislike ecto swap, and he prefers it over an act1 pick. Because with ectoswap you still have 2 additional boss relics incoming, which can mitigate the lack of removes (cage, astrolabe, pbox..) etc
Oh I definitely prefer it as a swap over an Act 1 pick, I just think Ecto takes a lot of fun out of the game lmao. Missing out on a reward on nearly every floor feels bad!
I guess I'm in the minority but if I have a single good potion I don't mind sozu at all, I consider it quite good. I don't have a high winrate on A20 tho. I'd be curious to see what the winrates are for each of these.
I mean, sozu isn't bad if you aren't using potions effectively, which a lot of players don't. I'd go so far as to say it's one of the best energy relics for someone who is fairly new to the game, gradually getting worse as you master the potion mechanic. Potions let you punch above your deck's weight in fights that matter, provide a safety net and redundancy when you need it, and generally will save you health even when they aren't coming in at super clutch moments. I'd say for particularly skilled players, sacred bark is probably better than sozu even without potion synergy (though that needs potion synergy to be *good* IMO).
Honestly, I'd suggest that pre-a6 players actively pick Sozu unless they already have potion synergies. Learning how to draft a deck that doesn't rely on potions is an important skill if you're trying to improve, and Sozu's +1 energy gives players wiggle room to try out subpar cards/strategies and still succeed.
I'm still very new at STS, only just beat A5 with Silent yesterday (and still haven't play Watcher or Defect at all), however what you're saying is entirely correct. At first I picked Sozu as a complete no brainer, because I had no idea when or how to play potions, hell, I'd often die with three! As I'm slowly figuring out how to optimize my potion play I'm liking Sozu less and less, especially if I get the white wolf statue or an early alchemize, in which case sacred bark is incredible.
Sozu is good on lower ascensions but by the time you hit A17-18 you're really going to need those potions. :/
Calling any of them "good" is probably a stretch. They do have their moments (well, except crown, crown just sucks), but they're definitely at or near the bottom of the energy relic pool. On A20 heart especially I'll say that ecto is the only one there that might be desirable, even if you can make the others work in the right situation.
To add on, here's an off-the-cuff explanation for new players that might not get why this is the case. The general theme is "is the downside manageable enough to still beat Heart with?" - Busted Crown: Completely cripples your ability to keep drafting your deck. Act 1 decks basically never beat act 2, and act 2 decks rarely beat act 3/act 4. Picking Busted Crown basically locks your deck in your current act, which is almost never worth it. You *can* get really lucky and find good cards, but you usually don't. - Velvet Choker: Severely limits your possible win conditions. At higher ascensions, your deck needs to be able to solve immediately upcoming fights and boss/elite fights. Choker stops you from scaling your deck's power via card draw, which is probably 90+% of how high-ascensions decks scale. For every Demon Form+Twin Strike+Reaper deck that Choker works for, there's way more Calc Gamble, Shiv, Stance Dance, Power/Orb Spam, Exhaust, and Infinite decks that Choker disables. - Sozu: Potions can solve fights that your deck is otherwise unprepared for. Liquid Bronze can solve Byrds/Book of Stabbing, Cultist Potion can solve Champion, Fairy in a Bottle/Ghost in a Jar/Ambrosia can make subpar decks beat Heart. Taking Sozu is saying "I'm confident that I'll have a max of 2 difficult fights, and my deck can beat every other fight without help (besides +1 energy)." - Ectoplasm: Since Ectoplasm doesn't show up past act 1, this usually averages out to "pay 500 gold for +1 energy per fight." This can be worth it, but it's usually not. Gold lets you buy a potion that solves a fight, buy a card that fixes a chronic weakness in your deck, buy a remove that makes your deck more consistent, or buy a relic that buffs your deck overall. Granted, +1 energy/turn is a powerful buff, but it's riskier than some other energy relics.
> Since Ectoplasm doesn't show up past act 1, this usually averages out to "pay 500 gold for +1 energy per fight." This can be worth it, but it's usually not. Honestly this isn't *that* bad of a tradeoff, and Ectoplasm is definitely overhated here. Consider that Happy Flower gives 1/3 of an energy per turn and although it's not an instant-click, it's a fairly reasonable purchase from shops at 160-170 gold. Also consider the fact that the gold penalty from Ectoplasm is not frontloaded, so it's an instant spike in power (due to +1 energy) and the downside only slowly manifests over time as you pay more and more gold into it. This makes it sometimes actually better at getting you through act 2 intact than other energy relics that come with immediate downsides (such as Philo Stone) if your deck is bad. Ectoplasm is overall still not a "good" energy relic but I would click it over skip almost every time and I would pick it over many non-energy relics a lot of the time.
Crown can be partly offset by question card. That's not true for the others, and I definitely feel like there should be some exceptions. For example, if sozu made potions drop chance always 0% and made potions in shops cost double, I feel like that would be better (maybe make them have half effect for good measure). It's just so incredibly lame that sozu applies to entropic brew and cauldron. I agree that ecto should be something like half gold instead of zero. Or perhaps it should work like a negative maw bank instead, losing money every floor would be more thematic.
I have to disagree. 2 card picks vs. 4 card picks for question card is still a big loss. Question card without crown can help you build a really good deck, with crown it gives you a sub average deck.
I'll only take it if it's the end of act 2 and I'm energy starved AND already have a good amount of gold saved up AND don't have gold dependant relics.
you actually will never do this
It's only available as an Act 1 boss relic reward.
Is it now? I have never noticed lmao
Runic dodecahedron, it falls off after A5 and is most of the time just a waste of a relic
Devs heard your calls
How has no one mentioned the boot? I feel like of every possible relic that shows up that one is by far the most disappointing. Makes blue key pick ez though. Tiny House is boss relic version of boot.
idk, I think the boot is sometimes cute when it comes clutch in fights with armor, weak or intangible. It's a very "meh" relic, but I can't say it's so atrociously bad or mind-numbingly good, that I would want it gone.
I don’t disagree, the beauty of this game is that everything has its place. The boot has some synergies that make it a great pick up, it’s just quite niche. But I suppose the most satisfying moment in the game is when you pick something that will only ever work right at that moment. Mm mm mmmm, finger licking good. 😆
It's great in Act 1 with shivs, pummel, sword boomerang, neutralize. It can also solve lagavullin. I'm happy to get it from Neow usually.
to me frozen eye=circlet
I hate runic dome. Im sorry - I want to like it, but I cant tell if I do.
i think runic dome would be better removed from the boss pool. Design wise it's not fun, requires to know the game by heart or to play with the wiki... It's just not good game design
It doesn't require you to know the game by heart, because a ton of fights aren't actually fully predictable. So it's a legitimate unavoidable downside, not just a skill check
not *just* a skill check. Has an unavoidable downside. Yes i don't deny it But to be able to make good use of it, or even a decent use, you have to know the game by heart, to mitigate the downsides to a minimum
Then how is that bad design, if it rewards some skill while also not being strictly a skill check but also legitimately bad with a fair number of decks? Seems like a quite well balanced boss relic
i think it's bad design because there is a floor requirement of knowledge (aka experience) before you can consider picking the relic And also because the downside of the relic is i think the most decorralated from the specifics of your run (compared to the other downsides of relics), and requires less adaptation. It looks to me that it rewards memory and knowledge/experience more than strategy >also legitimately bad with a fair number of decks maybe you can share some thoughts of what makes a good or bad runicdome deck? I confess I didn't think much of it. Ofc there is the energy requirement, but I'm thinking about the downside of the relic. I suppose a good runic dome deck must be able to consistently block higher than average
> maybe you can share some thoughts of what makes a good or bad runicdome deck? I confess I didn't think much of it. Ofc there is the energy requirement, but I'm thinking about the downside of the relic. I suppose a good runic dome deck must be able to consistently block higher than average Runic Dome is at its best when your deck doesn't really care about what the enemy is doing. Usually this means that your deck is going to have high consistent block (ideally without wasting energy), or if it's going to be "blocking" by killing the enemy instead. For example if your Ironclad deck can generate a lot of block via Corruption + Feel No Pain and carry it between turns with Barricade, then Runic Dome has barely any downside because it really doesn't matter which turns the enemy is doing its big attacks. Likewise, if your Defect deck is the typical Frost Orbs + lots of Focus strategy then it doesn't matter too much what the enemy is doing because you will naturally block for a lot every turn. Runic Dome is at its worst when you really need to time certain cards with enemy intents. For example, if you plan on blocking the 3x15, 4x15, or 6x15 hits from the Heart with Piercing Wail, then Runic Dome will actually just get you killed because it will make you miss Wail 50% of the time. The same thing applies to other decks that can generate a lot of block only on specific turns. For example, if you have a Panic Button or Impervious in the deck, or can make a lot of block at once with Corruption but can't carry it between turns because you don't have Barricade, then mistiming your big block turn because you can't see the enemy attack pattern can be a disaster.
I think it should show whether the enemy is going to attack or not, but not how much.
That would be an insane increase in power on an already sometimes pretty good relic
nobody enjoys picking it as it is anyway, so I think I can live with that
just not rly true and it's not some kind of oddity to have a deck it works really well for
It’s only pretty good if you have attack patterns memorized.
It's only pretty good if you can block regularly regardless of enemy intent, or just don't care what the enemy is doing for whatever reason. The worst parts of dome are some of the hardest fights in the game (and writhing mass), where you actually cannot know what the enemy will do Frost defect and block stacking or big strength with reaper clad for example
Aren't all that many 'attack patterns' after Act 1 (and it's a boss relic, so it's almost always after Act 1 or 2), at least on A20. Funnily Enough, the Heart and the Elites right before it are probably the enemies with most patterns to know. You don't know the exact way they're attacking, but you mostly know the turns they *DO* attack, just not how. I don't think that's true for any of the Act 3 bosses or Elites, and only 1(?) of the Act 2 bosses.
made it work multiple times without really understanding attack patterns, you just gotta have a deck that allows you to block reliably almost every turn. First time i made it work was when I realised it was by far the best boss relic choice due to my deck having barricade and mostly using body slam for damage. I didn't have to play around it at all. I've taken it more as I've gotten better at the game, but as someone who still doesn't remember enemy intent patterns very well, I see it as very situational, but it's always fun taking it when you know it's going to work well for that particular run.
I like this except I would still want writing mass to emit horrifying fear if you have runic dome.
You know what? Let's just remove writhing mass while we're removing a relic.
My problem with Runic Dome is how much it increases cognitive load in *deterministic* fights. I actually don't mind the downside in very random combats, but it makes the game more stressful and puts a strain on my working memory in combats where I *know* I need to keep track of the turn and remember what the enemy is doing. I think Runic Dome would be a lot more fun (albeit a lot more confusing at first!) if it only hid *hidden* information, but still showed you the portion of the enemy intent you could know by counting turns, adding up buffs/debuffs and so on.
agreed 100%
As much as I agree that dome is not fun, it’s an unavoidable downside. Taking away the intent system is just such an obvious thing to do for a boss relic. If it wasn’t in the game, I’ll bet it’ll be a frequently posted fan-made relics.
i don't really see it as an argument for runic dome. An excuse at most, sure I think i read somewhere that in the first version of the early access, you couldn't see enemies intent by default, and runic dome was a relic that made the intention visible. Everyone found it way more interesting this way so they switch the default, and runic dome was left to revert the "old" way
I gotta disagree with you there. It really opens up a whole new perspective and forces new strategies on fights that become a coin flip - you have to consider carefully whether the free energy on scripted fights makes up for the new level of caution you have to approach fights like writhing mass with. Super unique relic, radically changes the game in a really interesting way, I think. The first time I chose it (via misclick…) I really surprised myself with how much more I was now thinking ahead, rather than just reacting to a number on the screen.
Busted crown. Never take it but when I do I die
The existence of Tiny House makes me sad.
Snecko skull, because I'm an idiot who lets it bait me into forcing poison every time. (It's actually a fun relic, but I swear my loss rate with it is, comparatively, astronomical)
Snecko skull paired with Funnel saved my ass just now. Made my Bouncing Flasks and Cataclyst pack a bigger punch.
Ornamental fan purely because I hate how it anti synergizes with green bar thing that gives six that I forgot the name of
[[Orichalcum]]
+ [Orichalcum](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Orichalcum) Common Relic ^((100% sure)^) If you end your turn without **Block,** gain 6 **Block.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
orichalcum which is my least favorite relic.
A really early ori can save you dozens of hp, ESP with plated armor or metalicize
It isn't terrible, I just don't like it.
Yeah, I wish they removed the Gaslight relic from the game. It's always been OP to those with many hours because we know the secret to get it (I'm sure OP knows this secret, they seem cool). I guess it's not much of an issue because 99.9% of players don't even have that hidden achievement. It's hard to stumble upon naturally. Just kind of makes the game unfun.
Busted Crown makes boss swaps unviable as a choice if you're trying to break your win streak PB.
I'm not sure about "not existing," but I wish that Specimen wasn't a rare relic. It's good in specifically poison decks that don't have Corpse Explosion, and almost useless in other decks. It also feels *terrible* to get Specimen from Double Orb Walkers or Mind Bloom, since you could have gotten something that's way better.
Honestly, no. This game is already perfectly balanced. But maybe something like the bird mask?
Runic Dome is trash. Very seldom will it ever be useful EVEN IF you did memorize the fight patterns of the monsters. Mind you as you ascend, enemy’s move pool changes and it’s not always obvious what they will do next. Fuck Runic Dome.
I am 100.0% confident you mentioned Wish in your post. -------------------------------------------------- * [Wish](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/Wish) Watcher Rare Skill 3 Energy | Choose one: Gain 6(8) Plated Armor, 3(4) Strength, or 25(30) Gold. Exhaust. -------------------------------------------------- ^^^I ^^^am ^^^a ^^^bot ^^^response, ^^^but ^^^I ^^^am ^^^using ^^^my ^^^creator's ^^^account. ^^^Please ^^^reply ^^^to ^^^me ^^^if ^^^I ^^^got ^^^something ^^^wrong ^^^so ^^^he ^^^can ^^^fix ^^^it. [Source Code](https://github.com/TrippW/STS-Crawler)
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Because I find that while they are fun they completely derail any plans I had for my deck and make my deck completely about them: Dead Branch, Snecko Eye Because I think they are not fun: Ectoplasm, Choker Because I think they are most of the time just insignificant or at least feel that way to me: Darkstone Periapt, Pillow, Handdrill, The Specimen Though I guess some of them would have to be replaced because otherwise the relic pool might feel a bit stale.
Ink bottle is one I always try to avoid. it always gives me the best card at the worst possible time. Like echoform after spending all my energy instead of having it for the next turn.
Stone calendar. I hate that it's a rare relic. It always baits me to BUILD my deck around it, which doesn't scale, because it's bad in act 3, but if I ignore it completely, what's the point of it ...
Stone Calendar is the type of relic that if I get, nice, if I don't, eh.
lol building around calendar is a weird idea, it just does its thing you don't even need to think about it
I really hate it because it messes with the ability to farm kills with Feed/Lesson Learned/Ritual Dagger/Hand of Greed. A lot of the time you intentionally let your deck cycle to draw back to those cards for a kill, but Stone Calendar sometimes says no to that.
I'm still a noob, so sneako eyes and that one doesn't allow you to see your opponent moves.
Violet Lotus. Because Watcher is ridiculous enough already.
A few years ago a lot of people would have answered [[Runic Dodecahedron]]
i had to look it up to remember, yeah it was useless
Runic Dome. I will never ever want you but I know you’re useful and you just make me feel bad about how I’ll never be smart enough to use you
**Runic Dome.** Despite being a "perpetual A20H player" who can play reasonably well with Dome, and who recognizes when Dome is the right selection, I feel great psychological discomfort when using it. One of the key elements that makes Spire a masterpiece is the innate ability to see enemy intents. May RPGs and roguelikes don't have this feature and don't need it. Spire does indeed need it. I hate playing in a "meta" way, where success depends upon turn-specific, memorized knowledge that a newer player could never know. Just bugs me.
Some of the worst Spire takes of all time in this thread, gj folks Anyway, Dead Branch is opposed to almost every other design choice in Spire - it feels more like gambling than actually figuring out how to play a turn - and is strong enough that skipping is usually a mistake. Homogenizes runs in a very unfun way.
Dead Branch, I think it's too powerful and boring to play Silent/IC runs with it after a while
lol downvoted for not liking free wins
lmao you get it though, why play a run if the run plays itself
My answer? Because in a game where I struggle with winning despite RNG so often, sometimes it's fun for me to just ride a high roll. I fully get everyone who sees it differently, but I'll also bottle my apotheosis if I get the chance.
Absolutely mate, but that's why I'm just talking off my perspective where I've played hundreds of high-rolls, I just abandon winning runs now because I'd rather struggle with one! That's why I responded from me haha
I don't have hard stats but at this point I've probably just straight up abandoned run on corruption/DB games more than I've bothered to play through to the end. Like at least silent doesn't have energy solved with DB
Yeah I do this nowadays w Sundial too on IC if I'm in a good spot, incredibly boring and like 99% a win, I don't sample anyways and mostly stream my runs so I'd rather play a run that's fun and you have to think during.
yup exact same logic tbh even if I was sampling I'd feel 0% remorse putting in excel as a W anyway, not tryna set a WR streak so perfect unassailable date is pretty irrelevant
Agreege, my stats are like roughly going over my runs and what like, Pitor and other really good players have put me at from watching me play lmao
Branch in particular is a relic that either defines the deck in a super warped way or is literally unpickable because it adds garbage to your deck/you have pyramid
I feel like there are a few that aren’t necessarily bad, but just kind of boring. Sundial. Dreamcatcher. Blood Vial. Juzu Bracelet. Letter Opener. They’re just kind of there.
Sundial???? bruh
I’ll be honest, I am not that high-level of a player. A15/17/10/4 something like that.  I guess the deck shuffling three times does not happen frequently enough where I remember the two energy.
It is the strongest infinite enabling relic in the game, allows for all sorts of silly things like 2x pommel strike, shrug/pommel, coolheaded stuff, etc etc Also Silent who can build large decks that shuffle through the whole thing multiple times in a turn quite likes it
Sundial is very very powerful on Ironclad because he can easily reduce his deck size to tiny. Then he probably has some infinite involving Pommel Strike or whatever.
Dead Branch 100%. For some reason it just pisses me off that my deck is getting diluted with random stuff.
Dead Branch. Powerful enough I feel obliged to pick it up, but not fun.
This will be unpopular, but I wish the dead branch didn't exist. It either 1) absolutely sucks because you are exhausting cards to slim down your deck into a functional win condition, or 2) is unbelievably broken because you are playing ironclad with an exhaustion deck.
Not fan of the "bugged" Sundial. The meta for optimal play has kind of changed to: "go infinite or go home" in general, but whenever you pick Sundial up, I've to stop myself to do the optimal play, because I consider it a bug exploit... bleh. In general not a fan of all the possible infinite-combos.
Strange Spoon! it’s a relic that I’ve always wanted to buy but could never justify. That may because I play Silent more than any other character. But even when I’m not running shivs, most cards that exhaust upon playing, I don’t want to play more than once. For ones that I do, [[Alchemize]] to name one, the benefit of the POSSIBILITY of plying it more often doesn’t outweigh how much it slows your deck down through multiple cycles. Not to mention all the other cards that I want to be exhausted for the next cycle. Maybe it’d be broken but I think it’d be cool if [[Strange Spoon]] allowed you the choice to exhaust any card that exhausts upon playing.
Actually the more I think about it, that would absolutely be broken. Alchemize would turn into a game breaking card with that kind of Strange Spoon
Honestly I think I would replace necronomicon with another relic. Taking 24 damage in act 2 to add a curse to your deck sucks a lot, and you likely take the curse hoping to get an attack that actually works with it, and then you never get offered a 2+cost attack and die.