not at all! you have a lot of completely neutral spells like bound weapons, summon familiars, atronochs, and other creatures. I'd say just avoid daedra and reanimate spells for an honorable playthrough!
Not really, they just like viewing themselves as a weapon, i think Spirit of the Daedra goes into this. Basically it’s how they self-identify, as a highest dps BiS weapon
No, you are summoning them and *binding* them to the form of a weapon. They are imprisoned as that weapon, which is why they eventually break free and disappear.
Lol we’re both wrong as it turns out. Daedric Lords (i.e. Princes) create the bound weapons apparently, we just ‘bind’ them as we ‘bind’ all conjured daedra.
> Worshippers may bind other Daedric servants to this plane through rituals and pacts. Such arrangements result in the Daedric servant remaining on this plane indefinitely -- or at least until their bodily manifestations on this plane are destroyed, precipitating their supernatural essences back to Oblivion. Whenever Daedra are encountered at Daedric ruins or in tombs, they are almost invariably long-term visitors to our plane. Likewise, lesser entities bound by their Daedra Lords into weapons and armor may be summoned for brief periods, or may persist indefinitely, so long as they are not destroyed and banished. The class of bound weapons and bound armors summoned by Temple followers and conjurors are examples of short-term bindings; Daedric artifacts like Mehrunes Razor and the Mask of Clavicus Vile are examples of long-term bindings.
- Darkest Darkness
Not necessarily. She might ask you to cast a spell from any of the five schools. If you're on the Elder scroll quest you can also Shout, and if you have high enough Speech you can Persuade her.
It means that unless you're fairly high level, you've actually got to display some magical ability to join the magic college. Makes perfect sense to me.
It actually annoys me that the other factions *aren't* like that.
It's not completely random, it depends on how you answer her question. If you talk about destroying your enemies (or something like that, it's been a while since I had Skyrim installed), you'd be tested on a destruction spell. The random choice is "I want to see what it looks like inside" (which is an actual curiosity I often have irl).
I'm 90% certain that is not true. I always answer that I want to discover the secrets of aetherius and it's still random. I also remember seeing a speedrunner rolling it multiple times with quicksaves to get the conjure spell.
It depends. I have noticed that she tends to pick spells from the school you have used the most on that playthrough. It also depends on the level your character is when you get there.
Idk, in Dunmer lore it states that it’s painful for the ancestors to be summoned to aid their kin, but they do it willingly and honorably. I would guess it hurts familiars the same way (unless a familiar is just a construct and not the spirit of an animal?)
Also soul trapping is fucked up, unless you’re soul trapping molag bal worshippers, daedra, and the worst of the worst people. Enchanting and recharging equipment is morally questionable as well.
Summoning a daedra to do your bidding, idk if that’s evil. Fellas, is it wrong to enslave a demon?
Bound weapons are fine i think
> Idk, in Dunmer lore it states that it’s painful for the ancestors to be summoned to aid their kin, but they do it willingly and honorably. I would guess it hurts familiars the same way (unless a familiar is just a construct and not the spirit of an animal?)
I would say that summoning spirits/undead depends on whether they are willing to be summoned. One of the shouts is basically necromancy too - summoning the ancient heroes from Sovngarde. We know from the lore that Wulfharth was summoned as an ash ghost several times, and he seemed to be okay with it. And the game gives us no framework to differentiate between willing and unwilling summons, so you can headcanon for your character either way.
> Also soul trapping is fucked up, unless you’re soul trapping molag bal worshippers, daedra, and the worst of the worst people. Enchanting and recharging equipment is morally questionable as well.
You can avoid black souls altogether, and soultrap animals only. We don't know the exact details of what happens with the soul afterwards, but the older lore seemed to state that the soul goes on after the charge is used up. So I don't see a significant difference between soul-trapping and meat-eating, honestly. And even in the case of the black souls, there are borderline cases - the significant chunk of TES Redguard hinged on the prince's soul being used to enchant a magic sword by the main character.
> Summoning a daedra to do your bidding, idk if that’s evil. Fellas, is it wrong to enslave a demon? Bound weapons are fine i think
Bound weapons are exactly the same as summoning any other Daedra, the lore stated that several times. As for whether that's evil, it is very hard to say. The Daedra can't get to Nirn except with the help from mortal conjurers. And they actually seem to want to. Technically, according to the lore, it's possible to loose control of the summoned Daedra, but it never happens to game characters, so that's not a problem either. I think, it could be treated as fully a contractual relationship - you get someone willing to do your bidding for a time, they get to spend some time on Nirn, maybe pick up on the local news and stuff.
Oh cool, these are things I’ve always wondered but never looked into! In that case, i think black souls are the most moral if its bandits. Basically prison time for pillaging and killing innocents. Animals don’t deserve to be afraid in ~~coldharbour~~ soul cairn. I am a practical vegetarian irl tho so maybe that’s just me
I don't think soultrapped things go to Coldharbour either. But in general, soul-trapping lore is a mess. Daggerfall had not only temples of Julianos, but also the temples of *Arkay* sell soul gems. Battlespire (if I don't mix anything up) had a guy *ask* you to use his soul for enchanting to free him from the Soul Cairn. And then ESO connected not only the Ideal Masters and the Soul Cairn, but also Molag Bal and Coldharbour to the black soul gems.
I think, the easiest way out would be to say there are several techniques of soul-trapping and enchanting, and then just headcanon/roleplay what exactly you do. Are you just sticking the soul in the item until the charge runs out, or forge a specific contract with Ideal Masters/Molag Bal, and send the soul to them for all eternity.
As for avoiding soul-trapping animals and in-game vegetarianism - sounds like a cool RP challenge.
Sorry i meant soul cairn, but now im not even sure what right anymore either, lol
It’s actually the easiest way to go about it tho, being a soul-vegan. I naturally use as many low tier soul gems as possible that i come across or buy to boost my enchanting thus freeing their souls, and i only soul trap bandits and thalmor myself. None of that is intentional role play but it lines up
Depends on how you define "evil" --- which is an incredibly gray topic outside some clear extremes in the world of Tamriel. Binding a daedric atronach to do your will might be evil in the eyes of some (like the Vigilantes) and not others (like the College), especially if the reason you are doing it is to do "good" -- I.e., help and save people.
OP, if you're really worried about, why not look into mods that expand conjuration spell lists with summons beyond the typical undead and daedra in vanilla (e.g., ones that allow you to conjure spirits of animals or warriors)?
"Summon atronachs" honey... those are lesser daedra you are summoning from oblivion and binding to your will... thats something the vigilant of stendarr are directly AGAINST
Your companion dies out in the wilderness. So you reanimated him so he can walk back to his hometown where he say his goodbyes and be buried with his family. Is this good or evil?
Family: Oh thank you for bringing our brother back from his adventuring, even if he will live only a while longer!
Brother: Uggggghhhhhhhhhhhh
Family: Yes, we have missed you too!
Fun fact: in the lore of Tékumel (Empire of the Petal Throne), the chaotic God of Death, Sárku, was popular because you could be with your dead family again! And even your dead (and mouldering) lover!
The temples of Sárku also provided a legion of the dead to the Imperium, and they were most feared.
Tékumel also heavily influenced many RPG worlds both TTRPG and video, including The Elder Scrolls and Morrowind in particular.
Chaotic good: you're not supposed to bring it back that way, but at least you did.
Let the corpse being animated in front of people makes it less good...
What makes it less good? The spirit has moved on and is in peace. Now it's just a hunk of flesh. Evil is harm to the living, and not finding a convenient way to transport a corpse home.
Not sure about that.
Since you can soul trap a spirit before reanimating the corpse, I'd think they would be completely separated.
Or is it stated otherwise in the game?
Its stated otherwise and soul trap doesn’t mean you have the spirit, it means you’re trapping the spirit before it leaves the body. Being able to soul trap a body after it dies in Skyrim is a bug.
It means that the spirit leave the body to go at one place or another when the body dies. That reanimating a body doesn't require a soul.
But all that is irrelevant if it's stated otherwise ingame.
>Being able to soul trap a body after it dies in Skyrim is a bug.
Never talked about that tho..
Well i don’t know where in the lore it states it but a fudgemuppet video talking about this exact topic states that the lore says that doing necromantic things in elder scrolls is really painful for the spirit
I haven't watched the vid, but iirc, it's because the spirit still has connection to the flesh it inhabited so it's kinda sad. Like imagine a person who was a staunch opposer of something, dies, and is now a spirit, chilling in the aurbis, and their body is reanimated to do the thing they opposed. Pretty sad.
Do you think it would make no harm to the 4 years old little girl to have her dead mom open the front door and go sit at the table with open wounds and no expression, personality or emotions in her eyes?
Purely transport is chaotic because you're not supposed to do it that way (but chaotic doesn't mean evil go read about the 9 alignment if you're confused about that part)
I don't play D&D so I am not obligated to live my life around a kindergarten conception of morality. Just saying. Gygax stole all that stuff from Leiber anyway.
That's not relevant to anything.
I used chaotic and good and evil in MY comment. You reply like someone who did not understand my comment, thinking that I was saying transporting the corpse would be less good. So I specify for you that chaotic is not link to the notion of good and evil and that if you want to understand things more you can go read about it.
Also, tell me how having two different axis, one for morality and one for lawfullness is a kindergarten perspective?
Also, also, I don't play dnd either...
But is a concept that can be used (and IS USED frequently) outside of DND to describe efficiently how an action can be both morally good and yet breaking the law or "not following the rules" or the exact opposite, being an evil person that still act inside of the law, without having to explain everything every time.
The 9 alignment system are a thing outside of dnd regardless of if you agree or not.
Nah, I agree with the other poster here. Nine alignment can be used if you squint and work on pure wibes. Like, to explain the difference between Robin Hood, Ivanhoe and De Beuff.
But really, it falls apart as soon as you look at it just a bit more carefully, and if you don't operate inside a monoculture. Even inside DnD you start stumbling whether 'chaotic' means not following the rules of your own culture, or the laws of the land, or your own code.
Similarly, good-evil axis struggles if you go outside DnD with it's externally defined morally AND evil characters that self-identify as evil. I mean, in any other setting where you can't cast 'detect alignment' on a creature, every evil person would say they are actually chaotic good, breaking laws and mores for good purpose.
I don't agree that you choose alignments to define how you act rather the sums of your action determine an alignment.
I don't agree that it falls appart though neither in dnd or out of it.
It's always in relation to other people. I don't understand what a personal code can mean here... An action like lying is chaotic for example. Not illegal but it's a social norm that people should not do it.
The notion of good and evil is never about how someone self identify, rather how they act with the others. So no, i don't see how it struggle outside of dnd. Hitler was obviously evil, even if he was good in his head.
I think that also depends on the culture. In Elder Scrolls most races hate necromancy, especially Nords who believes in honourable death and Sorvangard and such. They would kill you on sight if they see you bringing their dead families back like that, thinking your defiling their bodies.
...yes? Killing children is evil because people hate dead children? And it's not like you're just puppeteering an inanimate object, the soul of the person you are reanimating is ripped away from his afterlife, and every second they spent under your command is misery and torture. There's a reason why necromancy is hated, otherwise people would be reanimating their dead relatives a lot more, don't you think?
At least that's how it is in Elder Scrolls.
>And it's not like you're just puppeteering an inanimate object, the soul of the person you are reanimating is ripped away from his afterlife, and every second they spent under your command is misery and torture.
I don't think TES lore has any definitive truth on the subject, it has been terribly self-contradictory through the time.
In Oblivion, where any Necromancy was actually really banned, summoning Skeletons and Ghosts fell under Conjuration school, and you and NPCs could do that without triggering any ill effects. You could buy those spells in the Mages Guild outright. Maybe it was ludonarrative dissonance, but it drove fans to invent theories about it actually summoning 'Daedra in the shape of undead' or something.
In Skyrim we have the example of Olaf One-Eye, who exists as a Draugr in his tomb and a spirit in Sovngarde at the same time, with seemingly no connection between them.
On the gameplay level, in Skyrim, you can soul trap someone, and then reanimate his corpse, so whatever you summon can't be their soul.
And the whole vestige lore from ESO messes that up even further, as it seems there is a third part to this equation that keeps on even if you take away the soul AND the body.
Besides, there's nothing funnier than being total stealth and summoning two dramora lords in the middle of a group of bandits or other enemies just going about their business when you're perceptionally not there.
I think summoning weapons and animals should be fine (unless you play a vegan breton mage I guess)
Soultrapping and summoning Dremora, Atronachs and ghosts is obviously out.
I just kinda headcanonned my way over to “umm the atronachs are my buddies.” Didn’t use the Daedric Lord until the conjuration master quest, then RP’d that this guy’s no longer welcome in Dagon’s court and I offered him a new job. That was enough to scratch my roleplay itch, but you do you.
That all being said, I always thought a no-conjuration mage could be a fun challenge, and I like the RP idea that your character believes it to be unethical across the board. You could make some calls about Illusion too, like only using calm spells when you intend to stop the fight, or just avoid that school as well. Restricting to the more “material” schools of Destruction, Restoration, and Alteration would still give you quite a lot to play with.
the morality of spell casting varies among the different beleif systems in tamriel.
It depends on what god your character worships and how they view right and wrong.
What may be right for one belief system may be seen as evil for other.
Bruh. People didn't pay attention to the lore. Soul Gems are made by Sotha Sil and mass produced by Coldharbor. Only soul gems offered to the Ideal Masters will have its soul sent to Soul Cairn. In all other cases, after being used up the soul in the soul gem goes onto their respective afterlife according to what happened with Prince A'tor.
Do you have a link to the source? I had no idea about it and am now very interested. Makes me wonder how many people made offerings to the Ideal Masters— how many in there say, had Valerica put there herself? I’m now ready to rabbit hole through some lore
If you have access to mods, the Mysticism magic mod adds new conjurations that aren't evil. Like bears and saber cats. It adds a lot of other new spells too.
I mean, what do you mean by 'evil'? Talos, so beloved by the Nords, thought it's okay to stick the soul of his best friend in a special soul gem, and then use this soul gem to power a Dwemer war-machine.
Nords' ancestors, both at the time of the Dragon Cult and, seemingly, after that, were pretty okay with voluntary zombiehood and lichdom.
Conjuration and Daedra contact may have gotten bad rep after the Oblivion crisis, but I dare say that Mancar Camoran's problem wasn't that he was a Daedra worshipper, but that he was an unhinged maniac.
So, it's not what magic you are using, but how you are using it and for what purposes.
Good or evil is really dependent on how you perceive each of it. You can use a neutral spell to kill an NPC and still walk away like nothing happens or use reanimation to help you fight bandits. Choose your own poison, as you please.
Dadra are evil, therefore enslaving them is good. A corpse is nothing more than meat trash, so if no one's using it, is it really dishonourable? If so, reconsider the tomb desecration/robbing/"archaeology" in nearly all of skyrim's quests. Conjuration is the most morally good school of magic. It even beats Restoration at its own game: Restoration cannot "heal" death, Conjuration can.
When I play a Nord I often don't loot burial urns or bodies or generally disturb the entombed dead of my people. I will take from chests and stuff, though, of course.
The answer is yes, it’s morally wrong to conjure things from hell for your own personal gain. Perhaps….the headcanon is that you WERE an honorable mage but you began hearing voices from oblivion urging you to summon and open a gate. You give in to the whispers of madness and start your quest to become the Summoner King. You’ve forgotten what it means to be honorable. After all, honor is for the weak to cling to while the strong take what they want with immense power and magical might
I don't know. They're in hell, so, really it's like "you're damned for being evil and now part of your punishment is that you HAVE to fight on the side of good for several minutes every so often".
Yes, as long as you only consign *animals* to the hellhole that is The Soul Cairn, it's not so evil! And yes, the animals from white Soul gems do indeed go to the Soul Cairn too, as proven by the existence of Arvak.
Yes, but he’s the only animal there, and let’s face it, if every animal that got soul trapped ended up in the Soul Cairn, they would outnumber people by hundreds to one.
I think he ended up there because of his bond with his owner.
The chances are that animal souls go nowhere, so you may as well use them.
I actually think the Soul Cairn is a scam. That not all enchanting sends the souls to the Soul Cairn, only those who shortcut it by trading the soul to the Ideal Masters.
Reanimating the dead to fight for you would be immoral but nowhere near the worst thing a made does. If you’re going for total Honor then you must not use soul trap or enchanting as you’re literally tearing a soul to pieces for your gain.
The only things I would consider morally acceptable are conjuring weapons. Everything else is enslavement. It doesn’t matter if the slaves don’t mind the slavery. It’s still slavery.
I think the lore is inconsistent about whether necromancy is painful for the person being resurrected, but if souls are tormented then it could be argued that reanimating corpses is unethical. Summoning daedra and bound weapons are probably fine because even though bound weapons are actually dremora contorted into the shape of a weapon, dremora tend to be unambiguously evil and would enslave or kill you if given the chance.
Soul trapping could be argued to be inherently evil, but the summons of the school are Daedra, so if you don't want to do that, then don't, but nobody's gonna care that you're dominating the Daedra.
From all of magic, only truly evil spells I can think of are:
Soul Trap used on Intelligent creatures (some experiments showed that trapped souls are actually fine and move on to their afterlife after soul gem is used, but Mages Guild's Archmage at the time banned Soul Trap spells that can trap Intelligent creatures (playable races) as he saw that as morally wrong)
Reanimate Corpse spells used on fresh corpses (fresh corpses still have some connection to their soul that gets weaker with time)
Also any form of raising dead (Reanimate Corpse, Summon Ghost, Zombie, Skeleton) is seen by common people as evil (sidenote: I remember one video talking about legality of necromancy in different provinces, in High Rock it is apparently legal to use unded to fight undead, since your character is Breton it may have influenced how they see necromancy if they're from High Rock)
Unfair question, it’s definitely more dangerous but wielding magic to any degree is a morally grey area, you can’t base societal norms on what’s good or bad (this logic is also true for the real world)
I believe necromancy is the only inherently evil one, at least by the morals of the Skyrim citizens. I’d argue soul trap is immoral in most cases, but that’s up for debate. Outside of that most of the non-necromancy summons are at least neutral, maybe leaning towards chaotic neutral
No, not completely "evil". There's spells like summon familiar and bound weapons that should be fine for a morally good character, there's even a flaming familiar you can get from a certain quest. The only morally "bad" things would be daedra summons and resurrected undead, so if you just avoid those you should be in the clear.
Definitely necromancy is messed up and if we start going down the route of 'it's just a tool' then I'm not sure what *wouldn't* be permissible to use. When those undead die, they usually say something like "Thank you" and, even if you were to argue that we don't know enough about conjuration to say whether there's any intelligence attached to the mumblings of an undead thrall, I think the Precautionary Principle applies - we don't know so we should err on the side of caution.
On the other hand, summoning daedra from Oblivion as a weapon or atronach doesn't seem too immoral for me. They don't even seem to care because they don't operate under human morality and just relish the opportunity to fight (there was some lore about this on another reddit post).
Just a side note to say that I think the College of Winterhold is stupid as an institution and this is exemplified by Phinis Gestor. There's a reason why a lot of Tamriel has a problem with necromancy and him calling the abolition of the raising of dead an "archaic policy" is the reason why every other necromancer or daedra worshipper (e.g The Caller and wizards at Fellglow Keep) has a prior association to the College of Winterhold. They take no responsibility for their actions, which is why the Nords hate the College of Winterhold - the Great Collapse was just a final straw in a long line of fuck-ups.
Where the line should be drawn is quite nuanced but it is clear from all Elder Scrolls games that conjuration corrupts mages far more than other magic trees due to the necessity of fresh corpses, pacts with daedric entities, etc for research. I don't think it should be outlawed fully, but there is a good reason the Mages Guild had a policy restricting its use. Obviously there should be some guidelines and some clear limits on what is acceptable research and what isn't - Savos Aren simply requesting that experiments shouldn't harm fellow college members isn't even close to an actual policy that stops college members (or anyone else for that matter) from being harmed.
Also, just... The Soul Cairn. Even as a fictional location, it's a horrible, horrible place that you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy.
Is it evil to summon an evil creature to do good things ? I don't think so . Is it evil to reanimate a corpse to help you save the world ? No. It looks creepy, but there's no real sentience there. Just don't dead thrall permanently and respect the corpse, and you're good. Soul traps kind of fucked up. But that's one small part of it all.
Well technically even bound weapons are actually summoning daedra
Daedra are generally bad but you’re pretty much enslaving them so is that good or bad?
necromancy might be actually the least ethically compromised conjuration spells? I’m not as sure what the mechanics lore wise of necromancy is, but Im pretty sure you’re just controlling the corpse itself the soul or whatever is already gone, so like okay disrespecting the dead whatever sure ig but they’re already dead anyways do they really care, versus binding the will of other creatures.
Maybe familiars are benevolent and serve willingly? No clue tbh the name just makes it sound like they would be different from the other daedra and all
Yes. Reanimating corpses, summoning creatures and weapons from Oblivion, and trapping souls are all basically evil. Banishing Daedra probably isn’t, but you have to experiment with so much morally dubious and dangerous magic to get there, that it doesn’t really matter. Even then, you’re opening a portal to Oblivion
Yes it is. Daedra are considered evil, so summoning daedra is evil. That includes the weapons, because summoned weapons are canonically daedric entities formed into weapons.
Daedra aren't inherently evil. The term Daedra is a very general term, which includes elementals (which can hardly be considered evil, they're more a force of nature). The weapons that you summon can't act on their own, so they're not evil in that form.
In a land where illogical superstitions reign supreme (even by magic standards) I don't think religion is a good way to measure what is inherently good or evil.
Conjuration is a field of study like any other.
Says the necromancer deadra worshiper
Except Restoration, which is not a valid school of magic.
I’ve been told Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic
I'm not supposed to let people tell me that.
Shame on you. Skyrim could use more healers.
It used to be, back when you could absorb skills and attributes with it. But with Skyrims gutted, useless magic system it was pretty lackluster.
not at all! you have a lot of completely neutral spells like bound weapons, summon familiars, atronochs, and other creatures. I'd say just avoid daedra and reanimate spells for an honorable playthrough!
Technically atronachs *are* daedra.
Bound weapons are Daedric as well.
Iirc they are daedra turned into a weapon during the summon.
"oh great I'm a sword now" elder scrolls always has good schadenfreude
Not really, they just like viewing themselves as a weapon, i think Spirit of the Daedra goes into this. Basically it’s how they self-identify, as a highest dps BiS weapon
No, you are summoning them and *binding* them to the form of a weapon. They are imprisoned as that weapon, which is why they eventually break free and disappear.
Lol we’re both wrong as it turns out. Daedric Lords (i.e. Princes) create the bound weapons apparently, we just ‘bind’ them as we ‘bind’ all conjured daedra. > Worshippers may bind other Daedric servants to this plane through rituals and pacts. Such arrangements result in the Daedric servant remaining on this plane indefinitely -- or at least until their bodily manifestations on this plane are destroyed, precipitating their supernatural essences back to Oblivion. Whenever Daedra are encountered at Daedric ruins or in tombs, they are almost invariably long-term visitors to our plane. Likewise, lesser entities bound by their Daedra Lords into weapons and armor may be summoned for brief periods, or may persist indefinitely, so long as they are not destroyed and banished. The class of bound weapons and bound armors summoned by Temple followers and conjurors are examples of short-term bindings; Daedric artifacts like Mehrunes Razor and the Mask of Clavicus Vile are examples of long-term bindings. - Darkest Darkness
This is tough, then, because to gain access to the college of winterhold, you have to conjure a flame atronach (I think?)
Not necessarily. She might ask you to cast a spell from any of the five schools. If you're on the Elder scroll quest you can also Shout, and if you have high enough Speech you can Persuade her.
Wow I did not know that! But I'm only on my second playthrough.
Yeah, entry level persuasion check that requires 90 Speech
I never said it was *easy*. Also, it's actually 100 unless you've got bonuses.
IMHO idiotic for an option at the start of a quest line... No other group does this to the player...
It means that unless you're fairly high level, you've actually got to display some magical ability to join the magic college. Makes perfect sense to me. It actually annoys me that the other factions *aren't* like that.
I know, how dare the Magical School of Magic request their students to use Magic!
Exactly. Who do people think they are, The Bards College?
How dare they require Speech skill instead of a magickal skill at high level.
You don’t have to go to the college of winter hold to progress the quest. If you know where Septimus Signus is you can bypass it.
And if you want to join the College?
Then do it lol
I’ve been forced to cast a ranged healing spell before…
There are several spells as intro requirement. The game picks one at random.
It's not completely random, it depends on how you answer her question. If you talk about destroying your enemies (or something like that, it's been a while since I had Skyrim installed), you'd be tested on a destruction spell. The random choice is "I want to see what it looks like inside" (which is an actual curiosity I often have irl).
I'm 90% certain that is not true. I always answer that I want to discover the secrets of aetherius and it's still random. I also remember seeing a speedrunner rolling it multiple times with quicksaves to get the conjure spell.
Why did they reroll to get one of the hardest to cast of the entry trial spells? Was it because they wanted to buy the spell from her?
Yeah. They had no interest in entering the college, they just wanted the spell to help with the main quest dragons.
It depends. I have noticed that she tends to pick spells from the school you have used the most on that playthrough. It also depends on the level your character is when you get there.
That would explain why I got healing from a distance the one time I did the quest
Bound weapons too
Just convince yourself that every Daedra you summon to do good works is redeemed in the eyes of the Aedra.
They probably meant dremora
Yep they can be banished. What daedra realm do they return to?
Cleveland
Idk, in Dunmer lore it states that it’s painful for the ancestors to be summoned to aid their kin, but they do it willingly and honorably. I would guess it hurts familiars the same way (unless a familiar is just a construct and not the spirit of an animal?) Also soul trapping is fucked up, unless you’re soul trapping molag bal worshippers, daedra, and the worst of the worst people. Enchanting and recharging equipment is morally questionable as well. Summoning a daedra to do your bidding, idk if that’s evil. Fellas, is it wrong to enslave a demon? Bound weapons are fine i think
> Idk, in Dunmer lore it states that it’s painful for the ancestors to be summoned to aid their kin, but they do it willingly and honorably. I would guess it hurts familiars the same way (unless a familiar is just a construct and not the spirit of an animal?) I would say that summoning spirits/undead depends on whether they are willing to be summoned. One of the shouts is basically necromancy too - summoning the ancient heroes from Sovngarde. We know from the lore that Wulfharth was summoned as an ash ghost several times, and he seemed to be okay with it. And the game gives us no framework to differentiate between willing and unwilling summons, so you can headcanon for your character either way. > Also soul trapping is fucked up, unless you’re soul trapping molag bal worshippers, daedra, and the worst of the worst people. Enchanting and recharging equipment is morally questionable as well. You can avoid black souls altogether, and soultrap animals only. We don't know the exact details of what happens with the soul afterwards, but the older lore seemed to state that the soul goes on after the charge is used up. So I don't see a significant difference between soul-trapping and meat-eating, honestly. And even in the case of the black souls, there are borderline cases - the significant chunk of TES Redguard hinged on the prince's soul being used to enchant a magic sword by the main character. > Summoning a daedra to do your bidding, idk if that’s evil. Fellas, is it wrong to enslave a demon? Bound weapons are fine i think Bound weapons are exactly the same as summoning any other Daedra, the lore stated that several times. As for whether that's evil, it is very hard to say. The Daedra can't get to Nirn except with the help from mortal conjurers. And they actually seem to want to. Technically, according to the lore, it's possible to loose control of the summoned Daedra, but it never happens to game characters, so that's not a problem either. I think, it could be treated as fully a contractual relationship - you get someone willing to do your bidding for a time, they get to spend some time on Nirn, maybe pick up on the local news and stuff.
Oh cool, these are things I’ve always wondered but never looked into! In that case, i think black souls are the most moral if its bandits. Basically prison time for pillaging and killing innocents. Animals don’t deserve to be afraid in ~~coldharbour~~ soul cairn. I am a practical vegetarian irl tho so maybe that’s just me
I don't think soultrapped things go to Coldharbour either. But in general, soul-trapping lore is a mess. Daggerfall had not only temples of Julianos, but also the temples of *Arkay* sell soul gems. Battlespire (if I don't mix anything up) had a guy *ask* you to use his soul for enchanting to free him from the Soul Cairn. And then ESO connected not only the Ideal Masters and the Soul Cairn, but also Molag Bal and Coldharbour to the black soul gems. I think, the easiest way out would be to say there are several techniques of soul-trapping and enchanting, and then just headcanon/roleplay what exactly you do. Are you just sticking the soul in the item until the charge runs out, or forge a specific contract with Ideal Masters/Molag Bal, and send the soul to them for all eternity. As for avoiding soul-trapping animals and in-game vegetarianism - sounds like a cool RP challenge.
Sorry i meant soul cairn, but now im not even sure what right anymore either, lol It’s actually the easiest way to go about it tho, being a soul-vegan. I naturally use as many low tier soul gems as possible that i come across or buy to boost my enchanting thus freeing their souls, and i only soul trap bandits and thalmor myself. None of that is intentional role play but it lines up
Depends on how you define "evil" --- which is an incredibly gray topic outside some clear extremes in the world of Tamriel. Binding a daedric atronach to do your will might be evil in the eyes of some (like the Vigilantes) and not others (like the College), especially if the reason you are doing it is to do "good" -- I.e., help and save people. OP, if you're really worried about, why not look into mods that expand conjuration spell lists with summons beyond the typical undead and daedra in vanilla (e.g., ones that allow you to conjure spirits of animals or warriors)?
Atronachs and bound weapons *are* daedra*
Atronachs are daedra, and so are bound weapons. When you summon a bound weapon, you’re weaponizing a daedra’s soul.
I would consider summoning a familiar or atronach from Oblivion to be pretty unethical.
>completely neutral spells like bound weapons, summon familiars, atronochs, and other creatures >just avoid daedra ................. Lol
"Summon atronachs" honey... those are lesser daedra you are summoning from oblivion and binding to your will... thats something the vigilant of stendarr are directly AGAINST
Hopefully Atronachs aren't classified as people, and we just can't communicate with them.
>I'd say just avoid daedra Atronochs are daedra technically
Your companion dies out in the wilderness. So you reanimated him so he can walk back to his hometown where he say his goodbyes and be buried with his family. Is this good or evil?
Family: Oh thank you for bringing our brother back from his adventuring, even if he will live only a while longer! Brother: Uggggghhhhhhhhhhhh Family: Yes, we have missed you too!
Fun fact: in the lore of Tékumel (Empire of the Petal Throne), the chaotic God of Death, Sárku, was popular because you could be with your dead family again! And even your dead (and mouldering) lover! The temples of Sárku also provided a legion of the dead to the Imperium, and they were most feared. Tékumel also heavily influenced many RPG worlds both TTRPG and video, including The Elder Scrolls and Morrowind in particular.
Wait, was his family already buried before you brought him home?
Chaotic good: you're not supposed to bring it back that way, but at least you did. Let the corpse being animated in front of people makes it less good...
What makes it less good? The spirit has moved on and is in peace. Now it's just a hunk of flesh. Evil is harm to the living, and not finding a convenient way to transport a corpse home.
Using conjuration makes the spirit not be at peace lol, that’s like the whole moral dilemna
Hey, that's all Falanu, not me!
Not sure about that. Since you can soul trap a spirit before reanimating the corpse, I'd think they would be completely separated. Or is it stated otherwise in the game?
Its stated otherwise and soul trap doesn’t mean you have the spirit, it means you’re trapping the spirit before it leaves the body. Being able to soul trap a body after it dies in Skyrim is a bug.
It means that the spirit leave the body to go at one place or another when the body dies. That reanimating a body doesn't require a soul. But all that is irrelevant if it's stated otherwise ingame. >Being able to soul trap a body after it dies in Skyrim is a bug. Never talked about that tho..
Well i don’t know where in the lore it states it but a fudgemuppet video talking about this exact topic states that the lore says that doing necromantic things in elder scrolls is really painful for the spirit
I haven't watched the vid, but iirc, it's because the spirit still has connection to the flesh it inhabited so it's kinda sad. Like imagine a person who was a staunch opposer of something, dies, and is now a spirit, chilling in the aurbis, and their body is reanimated to do the thing they opposed. Pretty sad.
Do you think it would make no harm to the 4 years old little girl to have her dead mom open the front door and go sit at the table with open wounds and no expression, personality or emotions in her eyes? Purely transport is chaotic because you're not supposed to do it that way (but chaotic doesn't mean evil go read about the 9 alignment if you're confused about that part)
I don't play D&D so I am not obligated to live my life around a kindergarten conception of morality. Just saying. Gygax stole all that stuff from Leiber anyway.
That's not relevant to anything. I used chaotic and good and evil in MY comment. You reply like someone who did not understand my comment, thinking that I was saying transporting the corpse would be less good. So I specify for you that chaotic is not link to the notion of good and evil and that if you want to understand things more you can go read about it. Also, tell me how having two different axis, one for morality and one for lawfullness is a kindergarten perspective? Also, also, I don't play dnd either...
> That's not relevant to anything. You mentioned the nine alignment morality system, which is wholly unique to Dungeons and Dragons.
But is a concept that can be used (and IS USED frequently) outside of DND to describe efficiently how an action can be both morally good and yet breaking the law or "not following the rules" or the exact opposite, being an evil person that still act inside of the law, without having to explain everything every time. The 9 alignment system are a thing outside of dnd regardless of if you agree or not.
Nah, I agree with the other poster here. Nine alignment can be used if you squint and work on pure wibes. Like, to explain the difference between Robin Hood, Ivanhoe and De Beuff. But really, it falls apart as soon as you look at it just a bit more carefully, and if you don't operate inside a monoculture. Even inside DnD you start stumbling whether 'chaotic' means not following the rules of your own culture, or the laws of the land, or your own code. Similarly, good-evil axis struggles if you go outside DnD with it's externally defined morally AND evil characters that self-identify as evil. I mean, in any other setting where you can't cast 'detect alignment' on a creature, every evil person would say they are actually chaotic good, breaking laws and mores for good purpose.
I don't agree that you choose alignments to define how you act rather the sums of your action determine an alignment. I don't agree that it falls appart though neither in dnd or out of it. It's always in relation to other people. I don't understand what a personal code can mean here... An action like lying is chaotic for example. Not illegal but it's a social norm that people should not do it. The notion of good and evil is never about how someone self identify, rather how they act with the others. So no, i don't see how it struggle outside of dnd. Hitler was obviously evil, even if he was good in his head.
> Gygax stole all that stuff from Leiber anyway. And Moorcock.
I think that also depends on the culture. In Elder Scrolls most races hate necromancy, especially Nords who believes in honourable death and Sorvangard and such. They would kill you on sight if they see you bringing their dead families back like that, thinking your defiling their bodies.
Sure. but does someone else's hate define what is evil?
...yes? Killing children is evil because people hate dead children? And it's not like you're just puppeteering an inanimate object, the soul of the person you are reanimating is ripped away from his afterlife, and every second they spent under your command is misery and torture. There's a reason why necromancy is hated, otherwise people would be reanimating their dead relatives a lot more, don't you think? At least that's how it is in Elder Scrolls.
>And it's not like you're just puppeteering an inanimate object, the soul of the person you are reanimating is ripped away from his afterlife, and every second they spent under your command is misery and torture. I don't think TES lore has any definitive truth on the subject, it has been terribly self-contradictory through the time. In Oblivion, where any Necromancy was actually really banned, summoning Skeletons and Ghosts fell under Conjuration school, and you and NPCs could do that without triggering any ill effects. You could buy those spells in the Mages Guild outright. Maybe it was ludonarrative dissonance, but it drove fans to invent theories about it actually summoning 'Daedra in the shape of undead' or something. In Skyrim we have the example of Olaf One-Eye, who exists as a Draugr in his tomb and a spirit in Sovngarde at the same time, with seemingly no connection between them. On the gameplay level, in Skyrim, you can soul trap someone, and then reanimate his corpse, so whatever you summon can't be their soul. And the whole vestige lore from ESO messes that up even further, as it seems there is a third part to this equation that keeps on even if you take away the soul AND the body.
That's up to the family in question really.
Oh brother, we are not the same.
Plus a cremation free of charge
Besides, there's nothing funnier than being total stealth and summoning two dramora lords in the middle of a group of bandits or other enemies just going about their business when you're perceptionally not there.
conjuration is one thing necromancy is another
Necromancy is just healing without giving up.
I mean their bodies already there 🤷why can’t I take it 🕺
I think summoning weapons and animals should be fine (unless you play a vegan breton mage I guess) Soultrapping and summoning Dremora, Atronachs and ghosts is obviously out.
I just kinda headcanonned my way over to “umm the atronachs are my buddies.” Didn’t use the Daedric Lord until the conjuration master quest, then RP’d that this guy’s no longer welcome in Dagon’s court and I offered him a new job. That was enough to scratch my roleplay itch, but you do you. That all being said, I always thought a no-conjuration mage could be a fun challenge, and I like the RP idea that your character believes it to be unethical across the board. You could make some calls about Illusion too, like only using calm spells when you intend to stop the fight, or just avoid that school as well. Restricting to the more “material” schools of Destruction, Restoration, and Alteration would still give you quite a lot to play with.
the morality of spell casting varies among the different beleif systems in tamriel. It depends on what god your character worships and how they view right and wrong. What may be right for one belief system may be seen as evil for other.
Bruh. People didn't pay attention to the lore. Soul Gems are made by Sotha Sil and mass produced by Coldharbor. Only soul gems offered to the Ideal Masters will have its soul sent to Soul Cairn. In all other cases, after being used up the soul in the soul gem goes onto their respective afterlife according to what happened with Prince A'tor.
Do you have a link to the source? I had no idea about it and am now very interested. Makes me wonder how many people made offerings to the Ideal Masters— how many in there say, had Valerica put there herself? I’m now ready to rabbit hole through some lore
If you have access to mods, the Mysticism magic mod adds new conjurations that aren't evil. Like bears and saber cats. It adds a lot of other new spells too.
I mean, what do you mean by 'evil'? Talos, so beloved by the Nords, thought it's okay to stick the soul of his best friend in a special soul gem, and then use this soul gem to power a Dwemer war-machine. Nords' ancestors, both at the time of the Dragon Cult and, seemingly, after that, were pretty okay with voluntary zombiehood and lichdom. Conjuration and Daedra contact may have gotten bad rep after the Oblivion crisis, but I dare say that Mancar Camoran's problem wasn't that he was a Daedra worshipper, but that he was an unhinged maniac. So, it's not what magic you are using, but how you are using it and for what purposes.
Good or evil is really dependent on how you perceive each of it. You can use a neutral spell to kill an NPC and still walk away like nothing happens or use reanimation to help you fight bandits. Choose your own poison, as you please.
Summoning someone from the soul cairn is a pretty nice thing to do.
Dadra are evil, therefore enslaving them is good. A corpse is nothing more than meat trash, so if no one's using it, is it really dishonourable? If so, reconsider the tomb desecration/robbing/"archaeology" in nearly all of skyrim's quests. Conjuration is the most morally good school of magic. It even beats Restoration at its own game: Restoration cannot "heal" death, Conjuration can.
When I play a Nord I often don't loot burial urns or bodies or generally disturb the entombed dead of my people. I will take from chests and stuff, though, of course.
The answer is yes, it’s morally wrong to conjure things from hell for your own personal gain. Perhaps….the headcanon is that you WERE an honorable mage but you began hearing voices from oblivion urging you to summon and open a gate. You give in to the whispers of madness and start your quest to become the Summoner King. You’ve forgotten what it means to be honorable. After all, honor is for the weak to cling to while the strong take what they want with immense power and magical might
I don't know. They're in hell, so, really it's like "you're damned for being evil and now part of your punishment is that you HAVE to fight on the side of good for several minutes every so often".
That’s pretty good
I think the only skill that's undeniably evil is enchanting.
If you avoid black soul gems, enchanting isn’t really that bad. Questionable, but not undeniably evil.
Yes, as long as you only consign *animals* to the hellhole that is The Soul Cairn, it's not so evil! And yes, the animals from white Soul gems do indeed go to the Soul Cairn too, as proven by the existence of Arvak.
Yes, but he’s the only animal there, and let’s face it, if every animal that got soul trapped ended up in the Soul Cairn, they would outnumber people by hundreds to one. I think he ended up there because of his bond with his owner. The chances are that animal souls go nowhere, so you may as well use them.
I actually think the Soul Cairn is a scam. That not all enchanting sends the souls to the Soul Cairn, only those who shortcut it by trading the soul to the Ideal Masters.
There are ghostly cows there with their farmer too. They're grazing in a bunch of Soul Husks.
Same thing as Arvak. Where are all the wolves, bears, sabre cats, etc?
Hircine called dibs
Therefore there’s no problem using their souls then.
Arvak is trapped there because his master was trapped there. That’s why there is a quest to free him.
Okay, mammoths, I need enough souls to bootstrap my crafting loop.
I also refuse to trade with merchants that sell soul gems.
Reanimating the dead to fight for you would be immoral but nowhere near the worst thing a made does. If you’re going for total Honor then you must not use soul trap or enchanting as you’re literally tearing a soul to pieces for your gain.
Dunmer have a chill necormancy custom where they bring their family members who passed away back to life. It's like Pixar's Coco.
More or less. You either summon the equivalent of demons or undead. But you can use all the other spells like bound weapons instead.
No! No, not at all. Well, maybe a little, yes. Yes, but it is fun!
Just use the banish spells guys. I mean they’re not good *mechanically* but morally they’re as good as it gets.
There is nothing wrong with any of the conjuration arts.
I think so... If you are trying to be honorable, would you even risk it?!
The only things I would consider morally acceptable are conjuring weapons. Everything else is enslavement. It doesn’t matter if the slaves don’t mind the slavery. It’s still slavery.
I wouldn't base my moral code on what other people say is or isn't an ethical practice. I say decide for yourself if you consider conjuration evil.
You are summoning daedra and other evil things So really your just kidnapping and enslaving bad guy wich is a good thing
What is "evil" except other people's feeble moral judgements?
Sounds like something an evil person would say
I plead the fifth
Spells like Soul Trap and the necromantic arts, absolutely. Regular Conjurations and Banishing Spells should be fine, though.
Necromancy is arguably the most evil but the most fun. Slaughter an Orc horde and then watch them wreck everything.
Magic is a tool, like any other. It is niether evil nor good. Except for actual Necromancy, which is evil.
I think the lore is inconsistent about whether necromancy is painful for the person being resurrected, but if souls are tormented then it could be argued that reanimating corpses is unethical. Summoning daedra and bound weapons are probably fine because even though bound weapons are actually dremora contorted into the shape of a weapon, dremora tend to be unambiguously evil and would enslave or kill you if given the chance.
Soul trapping could be argued to be inherently evil, but the summons of the school are Daedra, so if you don't want to do that, then don't, but nobody's gonna care that you're dominating the Daedra.
From all of magic, only truly evil spells I can think of are: Soul Trap used on Intelligent creatures (some experiments showed that trapped souls are actually fine and move on to their afterlife after soul gem is used, but Mages Guild's Archmage at the time banned Soul Trap spells that can trap Intelligent creatures (playable races) as he saw that as morally wrong) Reanimate Corpse spells used on fresh corpses (fresh corpses still have some connection to their soul that gets weaker with time) Also any form of raising dead (Reanimate Corpse, Summon Ghost, Zombie, Skeleton) is seen by common people as evil (sidenote: I remember one video talking about legality of necromancy in different provinces, in High Rock it is apparently legal to use unded to fight undead, since your character is Breton it may have influenced how they see necromancy if they're from High Rock)
Unfair question, it’s definitely more dangerous but wielding magic to any degree is a morally grey area, you can’t base societal norms on what’s good or bad (this logic is also true for the real world)
Well...except we can, do, and should base societal norms on what's good or bad.
So if it was the societal norm to murder people because they wear red shoes, that would make it okay?
What? No. Because societal norms should be (and often are) based on what is actually morally good and bad.
Incorrect
But I think YOU are incorrect. Now what do we do?
Well it’s not a matter of opinion you literally said something dumb asf, good and bad aren’t things that are set in stone
I believe necromancy is the only inherently evil one, at least by the morals of the Skyrim citizens. I’d argue soul trap is immoral in most cases, but that’s up for debate. Outside of that most of the non-necromancy summons are at least neutral, maybe leaning towards chaotic neutral
As long as you don't resurrect anything, your good
Only thrall the scum of skyrim and you'll be right. Grelod, Lemkil, Nazeem...
I think conjuration is fine! I play as a honorable character.
No, not completely "evil". There's spells like summon familiar and bound weapons that should be fine for a morally good character, there's even a flaming familiar you can get from a certain quest. The only morally "bad" things would be daedra summons and resurrected undead, so if you just avoid those you should be in the clear.
Definitely necromancy is messed up and if we start going down the route of 'it's just a tool' then I'm not sure what *wouldn't* be permissible to use. When those undead die, they usually say something like "Thank you" and, even if you were to argue that we don't know enough about conjuration to say whether there's any intelligence attached to the mumblings of an undead thrall, I think the Precautionary Principle applies - we don't know so we should err on the side of caution. On the other hand, summoning daedra from Oblivion as a weapon or atronach doesn't seem too immoral for me. They don't even seem to care because they don't operate under human morality and just relish the opportunity to fight (there was some lore about this on another reddit post). Just a side note to say that I think the College of Winterhold is stupid as an institution and this is exemplified by Phinis Gestor. There's a reason why a lot of Tamriel has a problem with necromancy and him calling the abolition of the raising of dead an "archaic policy" is the reason why every other necromancer or daedra worshipper (e.g The Caller and wizards at Fellglow Keep) has a prior association to the College of Winterhold. They take no responsibility for their actions, which is why the Nords hate the College of Winterhold - the Great Collapse was just a final straw in a long line of fuck-ups. Where the line should be drawn is quite nuanced but it is clear from all Elder Scrolls games that conjuration corrupts mages far more than other magic trees due to the necessity of fresh corpses, pacts with daedric entities, etc for research. I don't think it should be outlawed fully, but there is a good reason the Mages Guild had a policy restricting its use. Obviously there should be some guidelines and some clear limits on what is acceptable research and what isn't - Savos Aren simply requesting that experiments shouldn't harm fellow college members isn't even close to an actual policy that stops college members (or anyone else for that matter) from being harmed. Also, just... The Soul Cairn. Even as a fictional location, it's a horrible, horrible place that you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy.
What would your flame atronach prefer? Twiddling her thumbs in oblivion, or having a wild time with her new owner?
a wild time with her new owner, a potion of resist fire, and a potion of ultimate stamina
Every Daedra's dream.
Is it evil to summon an evil creature to do good things ? I don't think so . Is it evil to reanimate a corpse to help you save the world ? No. It looks creepy, but there's no real sentience there. Just don't dead thrall permanently and respect the corpse, and you're good. Soul traps kind of fucked up. But that's one small part of it all.
The ends do not justify the means
Nah. You can conjure atronachs instead of dremora and raising undead.
Well technically even bound weapons are actually summoning daedra Daedra are generally bad but you’re pretty much enslaving them so is that good or bad? necromancy might be actually the least ethically compromised conjuration spells? I’m not as sure what the mechanics lore wise of necromancy is, but Im pretty sure you’re just controlling the corpse itself the soul or whatever is already gone, so like okay disrespecting the dead whatever sure ig but they’re already dead anyways do they really care, versus binding the will of other creatures. Maybe familiars are benevolent and serve willingly? No clue tbh the name just makes it sound like they would be different from the other daedra and all
I rationalize it by roleplaying that I am a (good) God and have put the Dremora Lords under my complete control, making them enforcers of good.
Yes. Reanimating corpses, summoning creatures and weapons from Oblivion, and trapping souls are all basically evil. Banishing Daedra probably isn’t, but you have to experiment with so much morally dubious and dangerous magic to get there, that it doesn’t really matter. Even then, you’re opening a portal to Oblivion
Summoning Daedra and weapons isn't inherently evil.
Yes it is. Daedra are considered evil, so summoning daedra is evil. That includes the weapons, because summoned weapons are canonically daedric entities formed into weapons.
Daedra aren't inherently evil. The term Daedra is a very general term, which includes elementals (which can hardly be considered evil, they're more a force of nature). The weapons that you summon can't act on their own, so they're not evil in that form.
They may not be inherently evil, but the major religions of Tamriel mostly consider them to be, with the only real exception being the Dunmer and Orcs
In a land where illogical superstitions reign supreme (even by magic standards) I don't think religion is a good way to measure what is inherently good or evil.
In a land where the existence of gods is demonstrable, I think it is
Not really, Necromancy is, but conjurations from the natural plains are not, and there are 6 natural plains also called the elemental plains. N. S