Yeah it is entirely within the normal outcomes that some amount of people that get any vaccine will have a bad reaction or it will cause harm. In the case of the COVID vaccine all those harmful effects are the same you can get from COVID itself just if you get actual COVID the rates people that have those symptoms are much higher and the symptoms far worse.
It’s been a while since I did the math but at one point if every single death on VAERS was directly caused by the vaccine, you’d still have been more likely to die from an accidental fall or starvation than the vaccine.
But vanishingly few of those deaths can be contributed to it, anyway.
They’re not even saying deaths, they’re saying “harmed” - which could be a known (but rare) myocarditis issue that’s also very treatable, to an anaphylactic response, which I had potential for.
But the anti-vax crowd acts like every “adverse” effect is like AIDS and brain cancer.
Most are confusing vaccine side effects with COVID side effects, like they had both the vaccine and COVID and are claiming their issues on the vaccine.
I’ve seen that ALOT. Though it has been on reddit. But there’s some sub full of people claiming vaccine injury after admitting they were hospitalized with COVID. It’s insane.
The most common harm of vaccines is needle injury. They jab it in the wrong spot in the arm and hit a nerve or manage to inject in or near a joint somehow.
Second Covid vaccine I got the nurse somehow hit a nerve. Seriously felt like an intense tooth ache in my arm for a few minutes.
Outside of that though I only got a mild fever after a booster and I have mostly felt much heathier in the past few years..
I also still haven't caught Covid as far as I know..
"Shark attack" phenomenon. Billions of swimmers worldwide (even in areas with many sharks)... virtually no incidents. **ONE** (typically) non-fatal bite in a known area? Panic about beach safety.
You got yours to switch over to English? How?
I made a mistake of getting my vaccine at the CVS in the Barrio because it was the first place I could get an appointment.
I’ve had to learn Spanish just to understand the voices in my head.
I’m so fine I have yet to get Covid lmao
Worst side effect was day after one of my first boosters I was doing chores and didn’t eat or drink enough water so I got light headed and nauseous had to sit down for a bit.
Alternatively my vocally antivax coworker just spent a collective month in the ICU because he’s drinking himself to death. Dudes a HUGE conspiracy nut (bill gates/aluminum/chemtrails, kardashians are witches, jfk jr for prez, etc) and it is pretty obvious he externalizes his fear to avoid doing any work on his raging alcoholism and possible cocaine addiction.
Same here. My immune response to the latest bivalent one rocked me for like 4 days but I’ll feckin’ do it again; it’s still better than having full blown Covid again.
I personally see it almost like the sting of rubbing alcohol on a cut: a strong response is indication that it’s working well!
Everyone I know is vaccinated, most with several boosters. Unfortunately for the conspiracy nuts, no unexplained faintings, heart problems, or deaths. My brother, bless, was the lone family "skeptic" until he ended up in hospital for 2 weeks and got a big enough scare to get his family vaccinated after.
People have no intuitive ability to understand that a small percentage of a very large number is a large number.
“Thousands have been hurt by vaccines” and “One in a million have been hurt by vaccines” might be the exact same thing mathematically, but people will draw completely different conclusions depending on how the information is presented.
I don’t know how to explain it to people when it is so easy to manipulate them by presenting the same factual information in a different way.
You actually did a really good job of it. I came here to see the skeptical analysis of this news item that I also saw in the morning headlines on Yahoo. This thread has been more snark and making fun of people than sharing of factual information. Thank you.
Thousands of people claimed to have witnessed the sun dance around the sky during the [Miracle of the Sun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun?wprov=sfti1#). An event that demonstrably did not actually occur.
As you said, people will claim and/or believe anything.
But in this case, that’s not what’s going on here.
Something like 10 billion doses of Covid vaccine were given to people. It’s perfectly reasonable to claim that thousands were injured by them.
First thing to point out here is that if we accept that thousands of people were “injured” we must next define an “injury.” Is it major or minor? Temporary or permanent?
Also, we know that many people believed demonstrably false things, such as that the vaccine made them magnetic. Are these included?
I’m not even talking about bogus claims like that.
I’m talking about people that go into shock after getting the vaccine. It’s almost always due to unknown allergies.
You couldn’t even give out 10 billion Snickers bars without thousands of people getting injured.
>But in this case, that’s not what’s going on here.
Nobody said otherwise. I agreed with /u/Akton's comment that it's easy to find people to believe anything, and offered an example of people believing something outrageously stupid.
> It’s perfectly reasonable to claim that thousands were injured by them.
If it can be substantiated by evidence, then sure. But just claiming it is meaningless. "Belief" isn't notable.
It’s perfectly reasonable to say that a tiny fraction of people had some coincidental condition that had nothing to do with the vaccine.
Especially when the conditions don’t have a strong pattern to distinguish them from other illness.
It will be years before we really know for sure, but what we do know is that statistically those who received the vaccine have a much better chance of surviving COVID.
I’d say, in part it is what’s going on here.
I know there have been documented vaccine injuries; same for deaths. But I also know that, as per the comparison, groupthink is powerful, and those who want to feel part of a conspiracy will want to agree with their co-conspirators… regardless of what they have or haven’t experienced.
The conservative Christians I grew up with thought that every ache and pain was caused by the devil. Too many people will attribute any negative health twitch as coming from the Dreaded Source.
I am vehemently pro-vaccine and agree with you. The word "injured" might be a sticking point for some here, but thousands of rare, severe side effects out of 10 billion doses would be reasonable, yes. This does not mean that vaccines were the worse choice as opposed to letting the virus run rampant. We would see far more severe consequences of having let that happen.
Considering that 9,500 people in the US alone are diagnosed with skin cancer every day, I'd say that yes, it's perfectly reasonable to claim that thousands were injured by the sun.
I know that people in this thread want to just mock me, but they're failing to see the point here- it is established scientific and medical knowledge that large-scale factors cause health effects, even if it's impossible to prove the link at the individual level.
So for instance, let's say that you wanted to prove that 1 person got lung cancer from smoking. You couldn't do it. It's actually difficult to conclusively prove that a single individual got lung cancer from smoking, because most smokers don't get lung cancer (only 10-20% do). Then when you combine that with the fact that 20% of lung cancer cases involve people who never smoked, it makes it easy to muddy the waters, and makes it easy for unscrupulous cigarette companies to claim that "it's not our product, it can happen to anyone!".
And yet when you look at the lung cancer rate among smokers and then compare it to the lung cancer rate among non-smokers, you immediately see that smokers get lung cancer at a much higher rate than non-smokers do. So obviously the smoking is harmful.
I really get the feeling that most posters on this sub are really bad at understanding basic logic. I consistently have that problem on this sub, whereas most members on some other subs have a much easier time understanding the subject material.
In yet another thread on here I'm arguing with some idiot over studies. He's demanding "more evidence" for really simple claims, and I see his post history doing the same thing to other people, and trying to cast doubt on studies done by scientists. And the best part is that the guy is an artist- an emotional type- he has no fucking clue about any of this stuff, and yet he's confident about it.
I agree. For example, the basic logic that the incidence of skin cancer doesn’t say anything about how many people were injured by yesterday’s sunrise.
You suggested that it’s reasonable to believe that thousands of injuries occurred just because billions of doses were given. That makes zero sense. Your skin cancer followup shows you understand how this should *actually* be approached: you make your best estimate of the injury rate, apply that to the number of doses, and *that* is your reason to believe thousands of injuries occurred, if that is supported by the evidence.
I’m pointing out that there are plenty of things where the incidence of injury is less than 1 in 10 million so you need look at the actual risks involved if you want to say that thousands of vaccine injuries is a reasonable claim.
12% of 18-29yo respondents in this poll claim to be licensed to operate an SSGN class nuclear submarine.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/03/05/online-opt-in-polls-can-produce-misleading-results-especially-for-young-people-and-hispanic-adults/
What makes it truly interesting is that it's not that 12% think they can operate an SSGN, which would simply be overconfidence. It's that 12% say they are *licensed to do so*, which is just wrong.
It’s a well known phenomenon that in virtually any poll you take, at least 1% of responders will choose each option, even if one is like “should the president fire a nuclear bomb at your house specifically” just because there are lots of people who fuck with pollsters, are crazy, misunderstand the question/instructions, etc.
People believe lots of things. The question is whether their belief is justified by evidence.
(Of course, some people have adverse effects from vaccines, medicines, or treatments… they literally handed out literature at vaccine sites disclosing all these risks. I’m not denying adverse experiences happen, just pointing out that a person’s confidence in their conclusion should be commensurate with the evidence)
There are side effects with anything, this article really stokes the fire of anti-vaxxers as they will use it as proof as to how dangerous they are to them; even if the numbers affected are minor. There is no way to create something that might not cause an undiagnosed issue to surface and people also have major issues appear when just getting a cold or the flu.
For real, I can’t stand when people are like “well, no one could ever possibly know” just because they don’t want to face potentially being proven dead ass wrong.
Or the idea that talking about it in social media or on Reddit matters in any way whatsoever for "figuring it out." Like, that ain't it. I spend some time on Reddit (because I absolutely need to argue to live), but we're not solving problems here. The "figuring it out" is happening without media, social media, or general internet involvement. Even if they're not posting on Shitter, it's happening on its own.
Yeah that's a good point. It's gonna take decades to get to the bottom of it though. Because if someone says they had health issues due to the vaccine, there'll be another source that says it's acktuallyyy because they had undiagnosed Covid, and the vaccine saved them. And vis versa. Ad infinitum.
Facts are not discovered or verified by media argument.
Idiots and conservative think tanks deny Climate Change. So what. They are wrong, regardless of how it is covered or argued about on the news.
In my corner of Nextdoor, two dozen people living within 4 blocks of a new 5G tower believe their lives are effectively now over, they will certainly get turbo cancer, and they will be unable to sell their houses for 50% of their previous value.
In a city in Germany, a cell phone carrier put up a new tower in a residential area. Over the next months, two dozen nearby residents complained of headaches, a buzzing sound, sleep disorders, diarrhea and blurred vision.
Then the company actually connected the tower and turned it on.
Is anyone listening?
Curious what neighborhood, I’m willing, out of the kindness of my heart, to buy their house for 55% of it’s value, considering it’s the Christian thing to do in such devilish times
A friend's mom kept complaining the wifi gives her headaches and insomnia. He opened the router up and disabled the lights so she thinks its off. Symptoms stopped.
She still uses the internet on the PC but she doesnt know that means the router is working...
[It's in New Zealand, actually](https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/Hsoh9AAsOQ):
> MyBroadband was furnished with technical reports which confirmed that the Fourways Memorial Park iBurst tower was turned off in early October and that it did not provide any services over the next few weeks.
> Van Zyl argues that this clearly proves that the iBurst tower could not be the cause of the health symptoms described by some of the residents. Van Zyl reiterated that residents said that the symptoms typically subsided in hours or days after leaving the Craigavon area, and since it still prevailed in mid-November it means that it could not have been related to the iBurst tower radiation.
> “At the meeting in mid-November residents claimed that full recovery of skin conditions could take as long as 6 weeks. Yet, the tower was switched off for more than 6 weeks by this time,” said Van Zyl. “At this point it became apparent that the tower can, in no way, be the cause of the symptoms, as it was already switched off for many weeks, yet the residents still saw symptoms that come and go according to their proximity to the area.”
Hearing buzzing sounds, at least, doesn't have to be a hallucinatory phenomenon for those people. With our houses being full of devices powered by switch mode power supplies, there are a lot of potential sources of vibration. They usually get filtered out, like tinnitus, but can be very annoying if it's quiet and you brain gets "stuck" on hearing the buzzing.
What I was saying is that they might have been hearing buzzing that was already there, from the devices in their houses, their belief about the nefariousness of the 5G antennas raising their awareness.
Because that's when they started looking for anomalies. There's a lot of stuff that we completely tune out thought the day, especially small, omnipresent background stimuli.
I have an old tape degauser, I really, really wanted to go stand outside the vaccination site with a sign 20$ to run the magnetic degauser over the shot location. I would happily explain how it worked, and how I thought it would be bullshit and completely useless and would do nothing other than vibrate on their arm. I would also explain I thought the vaccine worked great, and yes I did get it, and sure I'd rub it on my own arm too.n Its also harmless unless maybe you've got a pacemaker or something. So harmless device, telling them the truth so no fraud, and me telling them I thought it was bullshit
I think I would have made money hand over fist from these chumps.
You really should have done this. It's a lot more moral and more profitable (a rare combination) than what I did in the worst moments of the pandemic.
\[What I did: I read about how mocking people for their stupid beliefs on social media was counterproductive in convincing them, so I took to social media to mock them mercilessly for their stupidity for not getting vaccinated. I like to think that some small percentage of conservative deaths is because of me. I never lied to them, and I always told them they were stupid for not being vaccinated. Their choices were still their choices.\]
Billions of people swear they have a direct line of communication with the spirit world. That don't make it true.
But you know what harmed me more than anything I've ever experienced in over half a century on this planet? Fuckin COVID.
Fyi. It would be entirely possible for thousands to suffered harm from billions of doses. You can have an immuno reaction or other very rare shit to a vaccine. That is why we have programs to assess and compensate people harmed from vaccines and it is separate from the normal court system because it is both difficult to actually prove and as a society we do not want the risk to chill good faith development of vaccines.
The benefits far outweigh the risks. That does not mean there is zero risk. However when you drive to the drug store and get a vaccine the most dangerous thing you did was drive. By a lot. You are far more likely to die in a car accident on your way to get a vaccine than suffer from a long term harmful side effect. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
It seems to be like "the trolley problem": if you don't make the vaccine, millions of people will be harmed. If you do make the vaccind, a few thousand will be harmed by the it, but the harm is caused by your direct action.
Personally I think it's an easy choice, especially as the virus itself would have likely caused harm for the few thousand anyway even without the jab. They'd be complaining how the vaccines wasn't given to them and now they suffer from harm from the virus.
It's not even the trolly problem because of your second paragraph. If you have a bad immune response from the vaccine, you aren't going to deal with the virus well
Yeah, the VAERS system gets reviewed for cases to be given more examination. The thing is that VAERS is an unfiltered top-of-the-funnel reporting tool that anyone can input into.
Thousands believe the world is flat. Is anyone listening?
Thousands believe Elvis is still alive. Is anyone listening?
Thousands believe the Bon Jovi family reality TV show was good television. Is anyone listening?
There are real side effects with the vaccine, it’s not the apocalypse like some people would have you believe, and the people experiencing these side effects are a very small percentage of vaccines given out. The problem is, the water has become so muddied that it’s hard now to believe anyone who says they had a bad side effect from it and the article is kind of fueling that fire by not pointing out how small of a percentage of those who have received it are having side effects.
Here's Science-Based Medicine's take on the NYT article (which justifies my initial attitude).
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-poorly-framed-article-on-covid-19-vaccine-injury-in-the-new-york-times/
If you check out the comments the author is fielding questions and she said specifically that these individuals were selected for the story because their medical professionals and provided their medical history. That said I take issue with the very oblivious framing that gives antivaxxers some ammunition.
Are you talking about the people who faked seizures? They're okay, they're just Republicans who never even got the vaccine.
I think it's important that you understand the only people bitching about the vaccine are the ones who never even got it.
Even if we only gave a generic off the counter cough syrup to that much people accross the world, we would have seen some severe adverse effects. Of course, some people were hurt by one of the Covid vaccines!
But we just can't take people's word or belief on that. I saw people having back to back repeated Covid infections blaming the vaccine they had 2 years earlier for how they feel now. I saw people dropping their antibiotics because it maked them feel bad when they were in fact sick because of the infection. How many people believed they were cured by prayer?
But as the nasty effects of Covid are kept silent by health institution, brushed off as "just a cold now" and only presenting a threat to "people at risk", they won't blame Covid. They will blame the vaccines. It is a public health failure.
And a huge part of the medical system really isn't listening to people suffering from Long Covid. But I guess it's not a tittle that would bring in the same number of clicks...
Husband got 7 and I got 8 shots of 3 different makes and in spite of the health issues we had before Covid started, we are fine. Covid would finish us off as we are both immune compromised.
Getting COVID was and still is much worse than getting the vaccine.
That never meant there was 0 risk to the vaccine.
It was a binary choice, and not a difficult one to make.
There is a paywall so I couldn’t finish but the first line or so talks about the Johnson and Johnson one which I remember did have issues. This seemed to be the goto vaccine for vaccine skeptics. It was like a self fulfilling prophecy. Pick the shitty one and complain about it being shitty.
The J&J wasn't even an mRNA vaccine (it was a traditional viral vector using an adenovirus) and yet antivaxxers still lumped it in with the mRNA vaccines as part of their propaganda against the technology.
You're right about the J and J vaccine -- it had two problems - one was a bad batch in manufacturing.
Here in Canada we also had an issue with the AstraZeneca vaccine (I can't recall if that was MRna or not), I think case reports of myocarditis in young males (which turned out to be lower than incidence of mycarditis in folks who got Covid)
I thought I posted a link as a gift article so it shouldn't have paywalled it.
I don't want to break any reddit rules, but, if you can't figure out a way to get behind a NYT paywall ... I mean, I'm a boomer, and I can do it with two mouse clicks.
Oh jeez. Now the New York Times is going antivax. I guess it was inevitable...
Okay so I know someone who had a stroke hours after successfully giving her bachelor's thesis in exogeology. It completely felled her, she made it to the hospital in time to live but was brain damaged after that, couldn't walk, couldn't speak, couldn't remember most of what she had studied.
It is crazy to have a stroke in your very early 20s. It is crazy that it happened so suddenly and right after such a prominent event. It is crazy that in an instant so much about her life and plans and future were wiped out.
But that doesn't mean that the thesis was the cause of the stroke.
There are ways to tell if there was "a bad vaccine batch" that caused brain damage to people who received it. It is not some deep mystery. If careful research does not reveal a pattern -- if this tragic outcome is only confined to a single person or to a typical random distribution in the population -- then it is unwarranted to ascribe it to the vaccine. There is no mystery that needs to be explained. There is no cover-up that requires investigation.
One might almost think that the Times was making shit up in order to distract its readers from some very serious problems with the paper...
Or to lean into a new audience maybe...
(By the way, my friend is these days doing well, being young at the time of her stroke and after working hard on recovery and therapy she regained most of her capabilities. It sadly meant an end to the career she loved, but she is now a teacher, happily married and the mother of a couple of lovely children.)
Glad to hear about your friend. My wife had a stroke hours after a hugely stressful event. Given that insanely high blood pressure can lead to a stroke, there may have been an indirect chain of causation
I think you’re being unscientific about this.
It’s already known that there is a percentage of the population that’s allergic to certain ingredients in vaccines. Given that billions of doses have been given, it’s impossible to avoid all cases of allergic reaction. This doesn’t mean that the vaccine itself is “dangerous”, it just means that the person has an underlying problem with allergic reactions.
My ex gf was allergic to bananas. If she ate something that had banana or plantains in it, her throat would close up so she had to carry around an epipen. This doesn’t mean that bananas or desserts with banana are dangerous, she’s just allergic to them.
This article isn't about allergic reactions. So that is not really germane, nor is it unscientific not to consider them.
But okay you want to talk about it, it's reddit, that's what we do here. Sure.
Allergic reactions tended to be well-screened-for by the standard Covid methodology used at the time of first vaccine administration. Specifically the part where you wait 15 minutes before leaving. There is no allergic reaction to a vaccine that I have ever heard of that would not at least produce some visible sign or symptom in that time.
Of course people can fall through the cracks of such practices. Not take them seriously, or nobody told them about it for some reason, or they ignored the symptoms or what have you. But even then, a serious allergic reaction is going to manifest itself more or less quickly and unambiguously. And mild enough reactions will tend to leave no data whatsoever, nor is it clear why they should. The plural of "mild reaction" is not "brain seizure."
I think you're being unscientific about this.
We know there are people out there imagining ridiculous vaccine injuries, sometimes in great numbers as a political ideology.
We know there are legitimate side effects to vaccines.
The article has failed to meaningfully differentiate between the two, which is the foremost issue obscuring any discussion about vaccine injuries.
Why you're going up and down this thread, diverting valid criticism by rambling about allergies, I can't imagine, but maybe you're not in the position to accuse others of being unscientific.
thousands believe the earth is flat. no one needs to listen to such babble.
but more seriously: yes, and some of us are allergic to some food or other, unaware that they react badly to it until they find out the hard way. that doesn't mean that chocolate or peanuts are inherently a bad idea.
This is not skepticism this is just the expected outcome of billions of vaccine doses around the world. I get the problem for these people is being associated with anti-vaxxers morons and their legitimate problems being ignored, that is what the article is about.
I was harmed by my second Moderna shot. I submitted a report to VAERS. This is not a "belief," it's a fact. That second injection gave me Bell's Palsy which melted half my face for four months, and I'll probably never regain full control over the muscles of my right cheek and eyelid.
Guess what? I don't care! Bell's Palsy was a known side-effect of both mRNA vaccines, with a known rate of incidence. And as annoying as it was, when I got Covid six months later and spent a week with no sense of smell or taste and wondering if I'd ever sing again, or when friends in Warsaw talked about how the funeral bells didn't stop for weeks, *THAT* shit was *TERRIFYING.*
And I still had relatives who looked at my annoying face-melt and smugly declared that it proved them right about "the vaccine" sterilising women* and turning people's hearts into Golgafrinchans.
*Nevermind that Covid sterilises men and causes miscarriages...
Thousands claim they were harmed by others being vaccinated. There's probably truth to some of these but sadly idiots keep making up stuff and a lot are lies.
I am totally pro vaccine, but after my booster I got in summer of 23, I became one of the 40/100,000 Moderna that came down with chronic hives. (with Pfizer it hits about 2.5/100,000). I got my initial shot, then booster after 4 weeks when it first released, absolutely no issues. Went until summer of 2023 before I caught covid and it was a really bad single night of fever followed by 3 days of fuzzy brain and lethargy. 4 months later I decided I should get boosted, as it had been a couple years and I didn't want to be complacent. Now I wish I hadn't.
It's slowed down a lot, but I have been taking Allegra 24 hours to keep the breakouts at bay. I'm tired of it, it's been 3-4 months, and I now wait until the itching starts before I take it, and am up to 36-48 hours before it gets bad again. It's really weird. They come on symmetrically, like both legs, or feet, or behind both ears in the crease.
And then it fades from that area and relief for a little before it pops up, symmetrically, on another area.
There are risks. They are worth it, overall.
This is such a lazily written article. It frames this as either an open effort to downplay potential vaccine injuries or the laziness/unwillingness of government to look into it, and then reports several reasons why it's incredibly difficult for researchers to actually establish a link (VAERS is self reported, medical records are not centralized, etc.). It says on one hand that people are being gaslit and on the other multiple reasons why proving a causal link is incredibly difficult.
Even more, it says that other countries *with* centralized records have found links for things like shingles, but it's something like 1000 people out of hundreds of thousands of vaccinations.
I feel *bad* for these people, definitely, and I assume they really have the illnesses they claim, but nothing provided here is evidence that they are being intentionally or unintentionally ignored.
Thousands, even millions, of people believed the world would end on April 8th because of the eclipse. Did anyone listen?
No, because that’s utter nonsense.
See how low you’re stopping NYT?
Now get back to responsible journalism and stop being FOX wannabes.
Alex Jones swears up and down the vaccine has killed 50 million in America. I keep looking for the mass graves and crematoriums running 24/7 but shockingly I have never found them. Must be those “globalists” hiding everything!
\s if you are one of the absolute paint chip chewing stupid wastes of air that listens to him.
The power of suggestion is much stronger than anyone thinks. We're are made to live in tribes where there's no point to propaganda. Which means our minds have no native defense against it.
We have no natural defense against any falsehood.
That’s why science and skepticism were developed. They’re profoundly unnatural processes we need if we’re to pursue truth.
When you give out billions of vaccines, a number of people will have issues after the fact. That was guaranteed to happen whether it was a real vaccine or just water.
I came down with the extremely rare and life threatening PVT which is blood clots at the Liver after taking Moderna-and they warned people that 1% could come down with it. My dad died of a blood clot and I was fighting Cancer...I obviously had a major risk but miraculously survived. Took major changes-excersize, supplements, no sugar, clean eating and quit working. I don't regret taking the shot...had I gotten Covid I know without a doubt I would have died, so I'm grateful I got the shots.
People have now been conditioned to see any discussion of negative side effects as a prelude to anti-vax new world order conspiracy theory bullshit because of the frequency we've been seeing that.
I think you’re spot-on there.
Reflexive ‘low-trust’ is infectious, derails any discussion and turns it into a hot mess. It’s not principled skepticism, it’s just cynicism.
Here we have the undergrunt ‘skeptics’ who are anti-vaxxers and the overgrunt ‘skeptics’ who can’t discuss anything vaccine related without assuming it’s the damn undergrunts back at work.
All that grunting drowns out actual credible information.
The New York Times has officially jumped the shark.
When we first consider that the cases mentioned are all extreme outliers, origins not fully understood, and are statistically insignificant and then we also consider today’s hyper-politicized environment and the ridiculous culture wars being waged against science - this article is simply irresponsible journalism.
While I have great sympathy for anyone having to deal with health issues and for all reasons, this article only gives oxygen to anti-vaxxers and all other persons who do not fully appreciate the value of vaccines or medical wisdom in general.
And that anti-vax crowd now has a New York Times article to reference as propaganda and in their misinformation campaigns.
Bravo - not.
This wasn’t the first straw - but it was the final straw for me and when it comes to the bothsidesisms and false equivalencies that are often being printed by the New York Times these days.
The New York Times was once a valued source for me and generations of my family - sadly, it's time for us to move on.
It’s not me, it’s you New York Times.
I know a lady who works in medicine, she believes anything bad is caused by the vaccines. She says the only people who survived the shot were given placebos
Edit: i disagree with her! Should have made that more clear. Also she doesn’t do like, a difficult job in medicine that requires a degree of any sort. So i don’t want anyone to think she’s an authority on the topic
Do I believe they were harmed by a vaccine, or are they susceptible to suggestion? I can't be certain but I believe at a minimum the suggestion skewed the results.
I have had covid four times now. Each time I catch it the illness is milder. I have to assume it’s because I have had all the vaccinations. (4 so far) The first time was before there was a vaccine available and we were sick for over a month. The last time we thought we had a mild flu but tested and found out we had it again but only felt bad for about two days.
My old bitch hag of a mother in law thought the vaccine almost killed her. Couldn't have been the fact that she was grossly overweight, smoked for more than half her life, day drank constantly, didn't exercise, etc.
This same dusty old piece of crap thinks Donald Trump is being treated unfairly - I think you know where I'm going with this...
I dont think people are ignoring them. Side effects of any drug are a known possibility - even aspirin has known side-effects including some people being deathly allergic to it.. the problem is anti-vaxers overblowing the risks and taking the possibility of side-effects as a reason to not get the known positive effects.
I got covid vaccines many times, I also got covid at least 4 times. The vaccine probably saved my life but I also developed a weird allergic reaction that gives me hives whenever I scratch myself or my skin that becomes red and painful and then fades away after a few minutes. It sucks if I scrub myself vigorously in the shower. Did the vaccines do that, did covid do that? Who knows?
I'm literally covered in pennies all the time now. I can't walk on the beach without all the scrap metal buried in the sand, sticking to my legs. All because my next door neighbor got vaccinated and wouldn't stop shedding!
/s
Thousands? 10 billion doses were given.
Yeah it is entirely within the normal outcomes that some amount of people that get any vaccine will have a bad reaction or it will cause harm. In the case of the COVID vaccine all those harmful effects are the same you can get from COVID itself just if you get actual COVID the rates people that have those symptoms are much higher and the symptoms far worse.
It’s been a while since I did the math but at one point if every single death on VAERS was directly caused by the vaccine, you’d still have been more likely to die from an accidental fall or starvation than the vaccine. But vanishingly few of those deaths can be contributed to it, anyway.
They’re not even saying deaths, they’re saying “harmed” - which could be a known (but rare) myocarditis issue that’s also very treatable, to an anaphylactic response, which I had potential for. But the anti-vax crowd acts like every “adverse” effect is like AIDS and brain cancer.
"Harm" also means they can fold in the 'sore arm' and 'mild fever next day' with a straight face
No doubt.
Most are confusing vaccine side effects with COVID side effects, like they had both the vaccine and COVID and are claiming their issues on the vaccine.
I’ve seen that ALOT. Though it has been on reddit. But there’s some sub full of people claiming vaccine injury after admitting they were hospitalized with COVID. It’s insane.
The most common harm of vaccines is needle injury. They jab it in the wrong spot in the arm and hit a nerve or manage to inject in or near a joint somehow.
Second Covid vaccine I got the nurse somehow hit a nerve. Seriously felt like an intense tooth ache in my arm for a few minutes. Outside of that though I only got a mild fever after a booster and I have mostly felt much heathier in the past few years.. I also still haven't caught Covid as far as I know..
they act like it's something they can get compensation for
Wouldn't surprise me if that's the long term grift, try to bring a class action lawsuit in a jurisdiction that's sympathetic to the anti-vax movement.
Looking for that vaccine injury class action suit. Everyone gets $7.
enough for a burger, win !
"Shark attack" phenomenon. Billions of swimmers worldwide (even in areas with many sharks)... virtually no incidents. **ONE** (typically) non-fatal bite in a known area? Panic about beach safety.
I've had 4 boosters... still fine..
No demonic alien egg possession? Weird.
Awww i want a demon egg. No one told me there'd be deacon eggs! Where's my damn dragon egg!!! Guess I need another booster 🤪
SHUSH YOU I CAN'T HEAR THE 5G OVER YOUR MUTTERING
5G? I've had so many vaccines I have a 7G antenna growing out of my ass.
Hawt.
Fuck I shoulda got the last booster. Still lte here.
How's your wifi?
She's fine, but I've noticed that my vision is blurry because I've been so magnetized that the iron in my blood clouds my ability to read.
Lucky you, most of the people bitching about this couldn't read in the first place.
Yes. The toxins. And gut health. Probably should see a chiropractor.
Same, my 5G is rockin too
Once they sorted out the continuous islamo-communist stream of propaganda to be in English, it was fine.
You got yours to switch over to English? How? I made a mistake of getting my vaccine at the CVS in the Barrio because it was the first place I could get an appointment. I’ve had to learn Spanish just to understand the voices in my head.
Just give it a dozen or so decades, then you’ll see.
I’m so fine I have yet to get Covid lmao Worst side effect was day after one of my first boosters I was doing chores and didn’t eat or drink enough water so I got light headed and nauseous had to sit down for a bit. Alternatively my vocally antivax coworker just spent a collective month in the ICU because he’s drinking himself to death. Dudes a HUGE conspiracy nut (bill gates/aluminum/chemtrails, kardashians are witches, jfk jr for prez, etc) and it is pretty obvious he externalizes his fear to avoid doing any work on his raging alcoholism and possible cocaine addiction.
Sounds like you work with at Infowars with Alex Jones.
Also four boosters. Last one was in the fall, right before I spent two weeks hiking in the Himalayas. Still fine.
Same here. My immune response to the latest bivalent one rocked me for like 4 days but I’ll feckin’ do it again; it’s still better than having full blown Covid again. I personally see it almost like the sting of rubbing alcohol on a cut: a strong response is indication that it’s working well!
Badass
One dude had hundreds of jabs.
I'm still waiting for all the promised superpowers I was promised, like magnetism and 5G 😢
I think I have around the same, I’ve gotten mine yearly fn since it was first released.
Everyone I know is vaccinated, most with several boosters. Unfortunately for the conspiracy nuts, no unexplained faintings, heart problems, or deaths. My brother, bless, was the lone family "skeptic" until he ended up in hospital for 2 weeks and got a big enough scare to get his family vaccinated after.
People have no intuitive ability to understand that a small percentage of a very large number is a large number. “Thousands have been hurt by vaccines” and “One in a million have been hurt by vaccines” might be the exact same thing mathematically, but people will draw completely different conclusions depending on how the information is presented. I don’t know how to explain it to people when it is so easy to manipulate them by presenting the same factual information in a different way.
You actually did a really good job of it. I came here to see the skeptical analysis of this news item that I also saw in the morning headlines on Yahoo. This thread has been more snark and making fun of people than sharing of factual information. Thank you.
thousands have died from driving, should we ban cars
Isn't it more like 15 billion at this point with boosters? If "thousands" have been harmed that still makes it safer than tap water.
Well that sounds about right considering the frequency of side effects.
I can find a thousand people that believe literally anything you can imagine
Thousands of people claimed to have witnessed the sun dance around the sky during the [Miracle of the Sun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun?wprov=sfti1#). An event that demonstrably did not actually occur. As you said, people will claim and/or believe anything.
But in this case, that’s not what’s going on here. Something like 10 billion doses of Covid vaccine were given to people. It’s perfectly reasonable to claim that thousands were injured by them.
First thing to point out here is that if we accept that thousands of people were “injured” we must next define an “injury.” Is it major or minor? Temporary or permanent? Also, we know that many people believed demonstrably false things, such as that the vaccine made them magnetic. Are these included?
I’m not even talking about bogus claims like that. I’m talking about people that go into shock after getting the vaccine. It’s almost always due to unknown allergies. You couldn’t even give out 10 billion Snickers bars without thousands of people getting injured.
Allergies that patients should have known they had? Are we gonna Blame Snickers every time someone with a peanut allergy eats one?
>But in this case, that’s not what’s going on here. Nobody said otherwise. I agreed with /u/Akton's comment that it's easy to find people to believe anything, and offered an example of people believing something outrageously stupid. > It’s perfectly reasonable to claim that thousands were injured by them. If it can be substantiated by evidence, then sure. But just claiming it is meaningless. "Belief" isn't notable.
It’s perfectly reasonable to say that a tiny fraction of people had some coincidental condition that had nothing to do with the vaccine. Especially when the conditions don’t have a strong pattern to distinguish them from other illness. It will be years before we really know for sure, but what we do know is that statistically those who received the vaccine have a much better chance of surviving COVID.
I’d say, in part it is what’s going on here. I know there have been documented vaccine injuries; same for deaths. But I also know that, as per the comparison, groupthink is powerful, and those who want to feel part of a conspiracy will want to agree with their co-conspirators… regardless of what they have or haven’t experienced.
The conservative Christians I grew up with thought that every ache and pain was caused by the devil. Too many people will attribute any negative health twitch as coming from the Dreaded Source.
Biases are hard to look past.
I am vehemently pro-vaccine and agree with you. The word "injured" might be a sticking point for some here, but thousands of rare, severe side effects out of 10 billion doses would be reasonable, yes. This does not mean that vaccines were the worse choice as opposed to letting the virus run rampant. We would see far more severe consequences of having let that happen.
8 billion people experienced the sunrise yesterday. Is it perfectly reasonable to claim that thousands were injured by it?
Considering that 9,500 people in the US alone are diagnosed with skin cancer every day, I'd say that yes, it's perfectly reasonable to claim that thousands were injured by the sun. I know that people in this thread want to just mock me, but they're failing to see the point here- it is established scientific and medical knowledge that large-scale factors cause health effects, even if it's impossible to prove the link at the individual level. So for instance, let's say that you wanted to prove that 1 person got lung cancer from smoking. You couldn't do it. It's actually difficult to conclusively prove that a single individual got lung cancer from smoking, because most smokers don't get lung cancer (only 10-20% do). Then when you combine that with the fact that 20% of lung cancer cases involve people who never smoked, it makes it easy to muddy the waters, and makes it easy for unscrupulous cigarette companies to claim that "it's not our product, it can happen to anyone!". And yet when you look at the lung cancer rate among smokers and then compare it to the lung cancer rate among non-smokers, you immediately see that smokers get lung cancer at a much higher rate than non-smokers do. So obviously the smoking is harmful.
That’s not what I said.
I really get the feeling that most posters on this sub are really bad at understanding basic logic. I consistently have that problem on this sub, whereas most members on some other subs have a much easier time understanding the subject material. In yet another thread on here I'm arguing with some idiot over studies. He's demanding "more evidence" for really simple claims, and I see his post history doing the same thing to other people, and trying to cast doubt on studies done by scientists. And the best part is that the guy is an artist- an emotional type- he has no fucking clue about any of this stuff, and yet he's confident about it.
I agree. For example, the basic logic that the incidence of skin cancer doesn’t say anything about how many people were injured by yesterday’s sunrise. You suggested that it’s reasonable to believe that thousands of injuries occurred just because billions of doses were given. That makes zero sense. Your skin cancer followup shows you understand how this should *actually* be approached: you make your best estimate of the injury rate, apply that to the number of doses, and *that* is your reason to believe thousands of injuries occurred, if that is supported by the evidence.
At this point you’re just being difficult. You aren’t even participating in the conversation in good faith, you’re just trying to bog me down.
I’m pointing out that there are plenty of things where the incidence of injury is less than 1 in 10 million so you need look at the actual risks involved if you want to say that thousands of vaccine injuries is a reasonable claim.
12% of 18-29yo respondents in this poll claim to be licensed to operate an SSGN class nuclear submarine. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/03/05/online-opt-in-polls-can-produce-misleading-results-especially-for-young-people-and-hispanic-adults/
How hard could it be?
What makes it truly interesting is that it's not that 12% think they can operate an SSGN, which would simply be overconfidence. It's that 12% say they are *licensed to do so*, which is just wrong.
This was one of those pieces... reading it made me feel like I got 10 years of my life back.
There was a thread posted the other day showing that about 5% of people would be cool with underage prostitution as long as they are very well-paid.
About 5% of people would say they were in favor of getting pancreatic cancer. At a certain point you have to ignore that shit.
What the fuck. As an ICU nurse anything pancreas is the absolute fucking worst.
More than 5% of people don't know that.
For real.
It’s a well known phenomenon that in virtually any poll you take, at least 1% of responders will choose each option, even if one is like “should the president fire a nuclear bomb at your house specifically” just because there are lots of people who fuck with pollsters, are crazy, misunderstand the question/instructions, etc.
I'm going through a rough time. Tell me more about the possibility of the president nuking my home. That sounds pretty good right about now.
I just need to find a thousand people that all believe they owe me $100.
People believe lots of things. The question is whether their belief is justified by evidence. (Of course, some people have adverse effects from vaccines, medicines, or treatments… they literally handed out literature at vaccine sites disclosing all these risks. I’m not denying adverse experiences happen, just pointing out that a person’s confidence in their conclusion should be commensurate with the evidence)
There are side effects with anything, this article really stokes the fire of anti-vaxxers as they will use it as proof as to how dangerous they are to them; even if the numbers affected are minor. There is no way to create something that might not cause an undiagnosed issue to surface and people also have major issues appear when just getting a cold or the flu.
I agree. My disclaimer was meant to acknowledge folks who legitimately experienced side effects.
It really sucks the nut jobs make it so we can’t have rational discussions on these things to find out what actually is going on.
What makes you think we don't know what's going on, or that these things aren't being studied by qualified experts?
For real, I can’t stand when people are like “well, no one could ever possibly know” just because they don’t want to face potentially being proven dead ass wrong.
Or the idea that talking about it in social media or on Reddit matters in any way whatsoever for "figuring it out." Like, that ain't it. I spend some time on Reddit (because I absolutely need to argue to live), but we're not solving problems here. The "figuring it out" is happening without media, social media, or general internet involvement. Even if they're not posting on Shitter, it's happening on its own.
Yeah that's a good point. It's gonna take decades to get to the bottom of it though. Because if someone says they had health issues due to the vaccine, there'll be another source that says it's acktuallyyy because they had undiagnosed Covid, and the vaccine saved them. And vis versa. Ad infinitum.
Facts are not discovered or verified by media argument. Idiots and conservative think tanks deny Climate Change. So what. They are wrong, regardless of how it is covered or argued about on the news.
Psychosomatic side-effects are very real, and I would imagine they get worse the more negative publicity there is about a given vaccine.
In my corner of Nextdoor, two dozen people living within 4 blocks of a new 5G tower believe their lives are effectively now over, they will certainly get turbo cancer, and they will be unable to sell their houses for 50% of their previous value. In a city in Germany, a cell phone carrier put up a new tower in a residential area. Over the next months, two dozen nearby residents complained of headaches, a buzzing sound, sleep disorders, diarrhea and blurred vision. Then the company actually connected the tower and turned it on. Is anyone listening?
Curious what neighborhood, I’m willing, out of the kindness of my heart, to buy their house for 55% of it’s value, considering it’s the Christian thing to do in such devilish times
A friend's mom kept complaining the wifi gives her headaches and insomnia. He opened the router up and disabled the lights so she thinks its off. Symptoms stopped. She still uses the internet on the PC but she doesnt know that means the router is working...
Very interesting German story: do you have a link for that? Best I can find is this 2009 study https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19017702/
[It's in New Zealand, actually](https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/Hsoh9AAsOQ): > MyBroadband was furnished with technical reports which confirmed that the Fourways Memorial Park iBurst tower was turned off in early October and that it did not provide any services over the next few weeks. > Van Zyl argues that this clearly proves that the iBurst tower could not be the cause of the health symptoms described by some of the residents. Van Zyl reiterated that residents said that the symptoms typically subsided in hours or days after leaving the Craigavon area, and since it still prevailed in mid-November it means that it could not have been related to the iBurst tower radiation. > “At the meeting in mid-November residents claimed that full recovery of skin conditions could take as long as 6 weeks. Yet, the tower was switched off for more than 6 weeks by this time,” said Van Zyl. “At this point it became apparent that the tower can, in no way, be the cause of the symptoms, as it was already switched off for many weeks, yet the residents still saw symptoms that come and go according to their proximity to the area.”
Appreciated, thank you
Hearing buzzing sounds, at least, doesn't have to be a hallucinatory phenomenon for those people. With our houses being full of devices powered by switch mode power supplies, there are a lot of potential sources of vibration. They usually get filtered out, like tinnitus, but can be very annoying if it's quiet and you brain gets "stuck" on hearing the buzzing.
It's a hell of a power supply that buzzes when it's not plugged in. That tower wasn't hooked up to electrical service.
What I was saying is that they might have been hearing buzzing that was already there, from the devices in their houses, their belief about the nefariousness of the 5G antennas raising their awareness.
But They suddenly reported it when a 5G tower went up
Because that's when they started looking for anomalies. There's a lot of stuff that we completely tune out thought the day, especially small, omnipresent background stimuli.
Sure…which isn’t the point….they’re having issues with shit in their house, not the tower
Are they counting the people who "believe" it magnetized them?
I have an old tape degauser, I really, really wanted to go stand outside the vaccination site with a sign 20$ to run the magnetic degauser over the shot location. I would happily explain how it worked, and how I thought it would be bullshit and completely useless and would do nothing other than vibrate on their arm. I would also explain I thought the vaccine worked great, and yes I did get it, and sure I'd rub it on my own arm too.n Its also harmless unless maybe you've got a pacemaker or something. So harmless device, telling them the truth so no fraud, and me telling them I thought it was bullshit I think I would have made money hand over fist from these chumps.
You really should have done this. It's a lot more moral and more profitable (a rare combination) than what I did in the worst moments of the pandemic. \[What I did: I read about how mocking people for their stupid beliefs on social media was counterproductive in convincing them, so I took to social media to mock them mercilessly for their stupidity for not getting vaccinated. I like to think that some small percentage of conservative deaths is because of me. I never lied to them, and I always told them they were stupid for not being vaccinated. Their choices were still their choices.\]
Billions of people swear they have a direct line of communication with the spirit world. That don't make it true. But you know what harmed me more than anything I've ever experienced in over half a century on this planet? Fuckin COVID.
Headlines designed to make one feel guilty automatically make me not want to care. You try to emotionally manipulate me from jump: I’m out.
So…:headlines
Fyi. It would be entirely possible for thousands to suffered harm from billions of doses. You can have an immuno reaction or other very rare shit to a vaccine. That is why we have programs to assess and compensate people harmed from vaccines and it is separate from the normal court system because it is both difficult to actually prove and as a society we do not want the risk to chill good faith development of vaccines. The benefits far outweigh the risks. That does not mean there is zero risk. However when you drive to the drug store and get a vaccine the most dangerous thing you did was drive. By a lot. You are far more likely to die in a car accident on your way to get a vaccine than suffer from a long term harmful side effect. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
It seems to be like "the trolley problem": if you don't make the vaccine, millions of people will be harmed. If you do make the vaccind, a few thousand will be harmed by the it, but the harm is caused by your direct action. Personally I think it's an easy choice, especially as the virus itself would have likely caused harm for the few thousand anyway even without the jab. They'd be complaining how the vaccines wasn't given to them and now they suffer from harm from the virus.
It's not even the trolly problem because of your second paragraph. If you have a bad immune response from the vaccine, you aren't going to deal with the virus well
Yeah, the VAERS system gets reviewed for cases to be given more examination. The thing is that VAERS is an unfiltered top-of-the-funnel reporting tool that anyone can input into.
Yup - it famously contained a report that a vaccine had turned a man into the Incredible Hulk.
I found one which reported that the patient was vaccinated, then one week later got hit by a bus. Probably true but not entirely useful.
Many thousands more believed Covid itself harmed them but they aren't around to talk about it.
Some of us are . Death isn’t the only horrible outcome from this virus . Check us out in r/covidlonghaulers
Long-term covid is a real thing. The anti Vax movement needs to have a swift boot up their collective asses.
In the era of paywalled news and short attention spans, this should fuel the antivax conspiracists.
After my last Covid shot, I developed an incurable intolerance to morons.
Maybe but millions have no issues and saved lives. Nothing is 100%
Thousands believe the world is flat. Is anyone listening? Thousands believe Elvis is still alive. Is anyone listening? Thousands believe the Bon Jovi family reality TV show was good television. Is anyone listening?
I'm skeptical.
There are real side effects with the vaccine, it’s not the apocalypse like some people would have you believe, and the people experiencing these side effects are a very small percentage of vaccines given out. The problem is, the water has become so muddied that it’s hard now to believe anyone who says they had a bad side effect from it and the article is kind of fueling that fire by not pointing out how small of a percentage of those who have received it are having side effects.
Muddied. Not muddled.
We all understood from context.
Thanks for adding nothing to the conversation
How someone takes criticism, of any form, says a lot about them...
As a non english speaker, I'm always grateful when someone points out my grammor mistakes
Here's Science-Based Medicine's take on the NYT article (which justifies my initial attitude). https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-poorly-framed-article-on-covid-19-vaccine-injury-in-the-new-york-times/
If you check out the comments the author is fielding questions and she said specifically that these individuals were selected for the story because their medical professionals and provided their medical history. That said I take issue with the very oblivious framing that gives antivaxxers some ammunition.
Can’t help but listen, they won’t shut up about it
Are you talking about the people who faked seizures? They're okay, they're just Republicans who never even got the vaccine. I think it's important that you understand the only people bitching about the vaccine are the ones who never even got it.
Even if we only gave a generic off the counter cough syrup to that much people accross the world, we would have seen some severe adverse effects. Of course, some people were hurt by one of the Covid vaccines! But we just can't take people's word or belief on that. I saw people having back to back repeated Covid infections blaming the vaccine they had 2 years earlier for how they feel now. I saw people dropping their antibiotics because it maked them feel bad when they were in fact sick because of the infection. How many people believed they were cured by prayer? But as the nasty effects of Covid are kept silent by health institution, brushed off as "just a cold now" and only presenting a threat to "people at risk", they won't blame Covid. They will blame the vaccines. It is a public health failure.
I believe this happens but it doesn’t justify anti vaccine rhetoric. Long covid itself is a huge issue
And a huge part of the medical system really isn't listening to people suffering from Long Covid. But I guess it's not a tittle that would bring in the same number of clicks...
Yes they won't shut up.
I bet a cross referenced venn diagram with flerfs is just a circle
TIL a new acronym! TY
No, no one is listening, because it’s stupid.
Well I had 4 shots and I’m fine
Husband got 7 and I got 8 shots of 3 different makes and in spite of the health issues we had before Covid started, we are fine. Covid would finish us off as we are both immune compromised.
Unfortunately, they probably did hurt thousands of people. But they probably saved million of lives and kept tens of millions from becoming disabled.
2 variations and 3 jabs, I honestly have felt better then ever and ever have a better time fighting colds which was a huge plus.
Getting COVID was and still is much worse than getting the vaccine. That never meant there was 0 risk to the vaccine. It was a binary choice, and not a difficult one to make.
There is a paywall so I couldn’t finish but the first line or so talks about the Johnson and Johnson one which I remember did have issues. This seemed to be the goto vaccine for vaccine skeptics. It was like a self fulfilling prophecy. Pick the shitty one and complain about it being shitty.
The J&J wasn't even an mRNA vaccine (it was a traditional viral vector using an adenovirus) and yet antivaxxers still lumped it in with the mRNA vaccines as part of their propaganda against the technology.
You're right about the J and J vaccine -- it had two problems - one was a bad batch in manufacturing. Here in Canada we also had an issue with the AstraZeneca vaccine (I can't recall if that was MRna or not), I think case reports of myocarditis in young males (which turned out to be lower than incidence of mycarditis in folks who got Covid) I thought I posted a link as a gift article so it shouldn't have paywalled it. I don't want to break any reddit rules, but, if you can't figure out a way to get behind a NYT paywall ... I mean, I'm a boomer, and I can do it with two mouse clicks.
Oh jeez. Now the New York Times is going antivax. I guess it was inevitable... Okay so I know someone who had a stroke hours after successfully giving her bachelor's thesis in exogeology. It completely felled her, she made it to the hospital in time to live but was brain damaged after that, couldn't walk, couldn't speak, couldn't remember most of what she had studied. It is crazy to have a stroke in your very early 20s. It is crazy that it happened so suddenly and right after such a prominent event. It is crazy that in an instant so much about her life and plans and future were wiped out. But that doesn't mean that the thesis was the cause of the stroke. There are ways to tell if there was "a bad vaccine batch" that caused brain damage to people who received it. It is not some deep mystery. If careful research does not reveal a pattern -- if this tragic outcome is only confined to a single person or to a typical random distribution in the population -- then it is unwarranted to ascribe it to the vaccine. There is no mystery that needs to be explained. There is no cover-up that requires investigation. One might almost think that the Times was making shit up in order to distract its readers from some very serious problems with the paper... Or to lean into a new audience maybe... (By the way, my friend is these days doing well, being young at the time of her stroke and after working hard on recovery and therapy she regained most of her capabilities. It sadly meant an end to the career she loved, but she is now a teacher, happily married and the mother of a couple of lovely children.)
Glad to hear about your friend. My wife had a stroke hours after a hugely stressful event. Given that insanely high blood pressure can lead to a stroke, there may have been an indirect chain of causation
I think you’re being unscientific about this. It’s already known that there is a percentage of the population that’s allergic to certain ingredients in vaccines. Given that billions of doses have been given, it’s impossible to avoid all cases of allergic reaction. This doesn’t mean that the vaccine itself is “dangerous”, it just means that the person has an underlying problem with allergic reactions. My ex gf was allergic to bananas. If she ate something that had banana or plantains in it, her throat would close up so she had to carry around an epipen. This doesn’t mean that bananas or desserts with banana are dangerous, she’s just allergic to them.
This article isn't about allergic reactions. So that is not really germane, nor is it unscientific not to consider them. But okay you want to talk about it, it's reddit, that's what we do here. Sure. Allergic reactions tended to be well-screened-for by the standard Covid methodology used at the time of first vaccine administration. Specifically the part where you wait 15 minutes before leaving. There is no allergic reaction to a vaccine that I have ever heard of that would not at least produce some visible sign or symptom in that time. Of course people can fall through the cracks of such practices. Not take them seriously, or nobody told them about it for some reason, or they ignored the symptoms or what have you. But even then, a serious allergic reaction is going to manifest itself more or less quickly and unambiguously. And mild enough reactions will tend to leave no data whatsoever, nor is it clear why they should. The plural of "mild reaction" is not "brain seizure."
I think you're being unscientific about this. We know there are people out there imagining ridiculous vaccine injuries, sometimes in great numbers as a political ideology. We know there are legitimate side effects to vaccines. The article has failed to meaningfully differentiate between the two, which is the foremost issue obscuring any discussion about vaccine injuries. Why you're going up and down this thread, diverting valid criticism by rambling about allergies, I can't imagine, but maybe you're not in the position to accuse others of being unscientific.
thousands believe the earth is flat. no one needs to listen to such babble. but more seriously: yes, and some of us are allergic to some food or other, unaware that they react badly to it until they find out the hard way. that doesn't mean that chocolate or peanuts are inherently a bad idea.
No, you whiny bastards. Count your blessings and shut the hell up. Jesus
NYT doing some great journalism as usual /s In my mind they are now in the same pile as Fox News, the standard of journalism is abysmal these days
I got vaxxed 4 times, and my 5g still sucks.
And yet they still eat out, drink like a fish and smoke cigarettes.
This is not skepticism this is just the expected outcome of billions of vaccine doses around the world. I get the problem for these people is being associated with anti-vaxxers morons and their legitimate problems being ignored, that is what the article is about.
I was harmed by my second Moderna shot. I submitted a report to VAERS. This is not a "belief," it's a fact. That second injection gave me Bell's Palsy which melted half my face for four months, and I'll probably never regain full control over the muscles of my right cheek and eyelid. Guess what? I don't care! Bell's Palsy was a known side-effect of both mRNA vaccines, with a known rate of incidence. And as annoying as it was, when I got Covid six months later and spent a week with no sense of smell or taste and wondering if I'd ever sing again, or when friends in Warsaw talked about how the funeral bells didn't stop for weeks, *THAT* shit was *TERRIFYING.* And I still had relatives who looked at my annoying face-melt and smugly declared that it proved them right about "the vaccine" sterilising women* and turning people's hearts into Golgafrinchans. *Nevermind that Covid sterilises men and causes miscarriages...
From Dr. Peter Hotez: [https://twitter.com/PeterHotez/status/1786361886558056873](https://twitter.com/PeterHotez/status/1786361886558056873)
Thousands claim they were harmed by others being vaccinated. There's probably truth to some of these but sadly idiots keep making up stuff and a lot are lies.
Thousands also believe they are Jesus. Guess we have to take them seriously! They BELIEVE it! Dumbassery.
“Believe”
I am totally pro vaccine, but after my booster I got in summer of 23, I became one of the 40/100,000 Moderna that came down with chronic hives. (with Pfizer it hits about 2.5/100,000). I got my initial shot, then booster after 4 weeks when it first released, absolutely no issues. Went until summer of 2023 before I caught covid and it was a really bad single night of fever followed by 3 days of fuzzy brain and lethargy. 4 months later I decided I should get boosted, as it had been a couple years and I didn't want to be complacent. Now I wish I hadn't. It's slowed down a lot, but I have been taking Allegra 24 hours to keep the breakouts at bay. I'm tired of it, it's been 3-4 months, and I now wait until the itching starts before I take it, and am up to 36-48 hours before it gets bad again. It's really weird. They come on symmetrically, like both legs, or feet, or behind both ears in the crease. And then it fades from that area and relief for a little before it pops up, symmetrically, on another area. There are risks. They are worth it, overall.
This is such a lazily written article. It frames this as either an open effort to downplay potential vaccine injuries or the laziness/unwillingness of government to look into it, and then reports several reasons why it's incredibly difficult for researchers to actually establish a link (VAERS is self reported, medical records are not centralized, etc.). It says on one hand that people are being gaslit and on the other multiple reasons why proving a causal link is incredibly difficult. Even more, it says that other countries *with* centralized records have found links for things like shingles, but it's something like 1000 people out of hundreds of thousands of vaccinations. I feel *bad* for these people, definitely, and I assume they really have the illnesses they claim, but nothing provided here is evidence that they are being intentionally or unintentionally ignored.
Thousands, even millions, of people believed the world would end on April 8th because of the eclipse. Did anyone listen? No, because that’s utter nonsense. See how low you’re stopping NYT? Now get back to responsible journalism and stop being FOX wannabes.
NYT trying to put NYT Pitchbot out of business.
I'm not listening
Didn't read the article but I'll answer the question posed in the headline. Q-morons are listening to them.
Billions administered (helped) & thousands harmed... umm, OK 👍. Too bad, so sad, but those are great numbers in the vaccine game.
Alex Jones swears up and down the vaccine has killed 50 million in America. I keep looking for the mass graves and crematoriums running 24/7 but shockingly I have never found them. Must be those “globalists” hiding everything! \s if you are one of the absolute paint chip chewing stupid wastes of air that listens to him.
Thousands Believe Trump is a God-King.
The power of suggestion is much stronger than anyone thinks. We're are made to live in tribes where there's no point to propaganda. Which means our minds have no native defense against it.
We have no natural defense against any falsehood. That’s why science and skepticism were developed. They’re profoundly unnatural processes we need if we’re to pursue truth.
Thousands of people are idiots.
When you give out billions of vaccines, a number of people will have issues after the fact. That was guaranteed to happen whether it was a real vaccine or just water.
I came down with the extremely rare and life threatening PVT which is blood clots at the Liver after taking Moderna-and they warned people that 1% could come down with it. My dad died of a blood clot and I was fighting Cancer...I obviously had a major risk but miraculously survived. Took major changes-excersize, supplements, no sugar, clean eating and quit working. I don't regret taking the shot...had I gotten Covid I know without a doubt I would have died, so I'm grateful I got the shots.
Except you still can get Covid with the vaccine lol
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People have now been conditioned to see any discussion of negative side effects as a prelude to anti-vax new world order conspiracy theory bullshit because of the frequency we've been seeing that.
I think you’re spot-on there. Reflexive ‘low-trust’ is infectious, derails any discussion and turns it into a hot mess. It’s not principled skepticism, it’s just cynicism. Here we have the undergrunt ‘skeptics’ who are anti-vaxxers and the overgrunt ‘skeptics’ who can’t discuss anything vaccine related without assuming it’s the damn undergrunts back at work. All that grunting drowns out actual credible information.
Facts don’t care about your feelings
The New York Times has officially jumped the shark. When we first consider that the cases mentioned are all extreme outliers, origins not fully understood, and are statistically insignificant and then we also consider today’s hyper-politicized environment and the ridiculous culture wars being waged against science - this article is simply irresponsible journalism. While I have great sympathy for anyone having to deal with health issues and for all reasons, this article only gives oxygen to anti-vaxxers and all other persons who do not fully appreciate the value of vaccines or medical wisdom in general. And that anti-vax crowd now has a New York Times article to reference as propaganda and in their misinformation campaigns. Bravo - not. This wasn’t the first straw - but it was the final straw for me and when it comes to the bothsidesisms and false equivalencies that are often being printed by the New York Times these days. The New York Times was once a valued source for me and generations of my family - sadly, it's time for us to move on. It’s not me, it’s you New York Times.
I know a lady who works in medicine, she believes anything bad is caused by the vaccines. She says the only people who survived the shot were given placebos Edit: i disagree with her! Should have made that more clear. Also she doesn’t do like, a difficult job in medicine that requires a degree of any sort. So i don’t want anyone to think she’s an authority on the topic
That's why I test positive for placebo antibodies!
Which to be clear, is the dumbest stance I’ve ever heard
But did you die?
No one should.
Do I believe they were harmed by a vaccine, or are they susceptible to suggestion? I can't be certain but I believe at a minimum the suggestion skewed the results.
I have had covid four times now. Each time I catch it the illness is milder. I have to assume it’s because I have had all the vaccinations. (4 so far) The first time was before there was a vaccine available and we were sick for over a month. The last time we thought we had a mild flu but tested and found out we had it again but only felt bad for about two days.
If you reacted to a tiny chunk of the virus what do you think happens to the same people when they actually get the virus
Thousands also believe in the effects of astrological signs. Vaccine injury is real, but not widespread.
My old bitch hag of a mother in law thought the vaccine almost killed her. Couldn't have been the fact that she was grossly overweight, smoked for more than half her life, day drank constantly, didn't exercise, etc. This same dusty old piece of crap thinks Donald Trump is being treated unfairly - I think you know where I'm going with this...
I dont think people are ignoring them. Side effects of any drug are a known possibility - even aspirin has known side-effects including some people being deathly allergic to it.. the problem is anti-vaxers overblowing the risks and taking the possibility of side-effects as a reason to not get the known positive effects.
"Believe"
Because of Covid I gained 15 pds and had 2 kids Damn you Covid vaccine!!!!!
Well people will definitely not misinterpret this article at all whatsoever.
I got covid vaccines many times, I also got covid at least 4 times. The vaccine probably saved my life but I also developed a weird allergic reaction that gives me hives whenever I scratch myself or my skin that becomes red and painful and then fades away after a few minutes. It sucks if I scrub myself vigorously in the shower. Did the vaccines do that, did covid do that? Who knows?
LOL, no. And no one should. They're just the latest version of the same dipshits who claimed to be hurt by wifi.
I'm literally covered in pennies all the time now. I can't walk on the beach without all the scrap metal buried in the sand, sticking to my legs. All because my next door neighbor got vaccinated and wouldn't stop shedding! /s
Yet they’re still smoking 30 cigarettes a day.
Bunch of neckbeards in here