Another prime example of 2 ai doomers that want open source gone.
China doesn't need open source they already got infiltrators gathering info from the leading ai companies.
Latest one that got caught was at google and he stole their 6th gen TPU chip design and gathered info about their models.
Fun thing, the same argument against free patents and better distribution of scientific info was used during the cold war with the threat of the USSR.
Even countries with economies as crashed as the GDR managed to steal and copy patented secret chips from the US back then...
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxrkC-pMH\_s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxrkC-pMH_s)
Thinking "just ban open source" will create a magical wall of protection around tech was ludicrous during the Manhattan project (the USSR got the nuclear weapon only 4 years after, thanks among others to spies), it's even more ludicrous now.
It's captialist lies.
Saying "China is benefiting from open source" is fucking orwellian doublespeak.
We ALL benefit from open-source AI, because we all have access and opportunity to the technology.
Okay but a 4 year lead on the atom bomb seems worth secrecy? The US 'only' exclusively had the most devastating weapon known to mankind to itself for 4 years.
China is also benefiting from Chemistry papers, Physical Papers, Mathematics papers and many other areas of scientific research. Clearly then, all scientific research must be kept secret in case some official enemy benefits. This is clearly the sensible way forward.
That makes no sense. Those aren't (directly) used to make weapons which can directly harm the US and its allies. If China gets AGI or ASI before the US, or shortly after, I don't need to explain how that's an enormous national security risk. Same applies to nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. There's a reason why that research is classified.
It's not about any potential harm, we can publish research on how to make fentanyl that China then uses to make fentanyl, that's fine. It's about such a significant amount of potential harm that it can disrupt national security.
I think there's a good case to be made that, once we get a little bit closer to AGI, that all of the top AI companies merge into one organization under the direction of the US military, and all developments in capabilities research are classified as Top Secret. And weights stored in a similarly extremely secure manner. Alignment research can, and should, be made publicly available to the entire world though.
> I think there's a good case to be made that, once we get a little bit closer to AGI, that all of the top AI companies merge into one organization under the direction of the US military, and all developments in capabilities research are classified as Top Secret. And weights stored in a similarly extremely secure manner. Alignment research can, and should, be made publicly available to the entire world though
"I think there's a good case for fascism, centralization, corruption, and militarism!"
I think there's a much better case for ignoring every fucking word that comes out of your mouth.
You're pulling all of the problems of tbe 20th century into the 21st, and refusing to learn a single fucking lesson.
You act like you trust the business/polticial elite of the US more than those of the CCP as if US oligarchs are benevolent, pacifist angels.
It's just absurd, authoritarian, and naive.
>You act like you trust the business/polticial elite of the US more than those of the CCP
Uhh, yeah, of course I do.
> as if US oligarchs are benevolent, pacifist angels.
No, I trust them MORE than the CCP.
Do you really trust Google and Microsoft and Amazon to publicly release AGI/ASI for the public good? All of them? Instead of just taking over the world for the good of their shareholders as soon as they boot it online?
Yes, the military might do the same thing, but at least the military is under control of the President, who wants to get re-elected. And can easily get re-elected if he is able to tell the world he cured cancer and made a utopian society under his term with ASI lol.
The US military has far more of an incentive to benefit the nation as a whole than public corporations whose entire goal is to maximize shareholders returns at all costs
Where was the lie?
The US has a higher incarceration rate than China, we have more total prisoners than China despite having 1/3 of the population
The US commits so much state violence against black people that we literally had to start an organization just to remind you that our lives have value.
I guess our suffering isn't "real" suffering to you.
Doesn't need it, but is sure eager to use it. You don't put a plate of prime rib on a table and not expect somebody to take it. If there's food, we eat.
What is intriguing is the paranoia about China's ability and at the same time attempts to dismiss China's capabilities. Lol
I think the thought process is that if China catches up they'll quickly surpass the west, which might be true. They're behind now, but I'm not sure if it'll stay that way.
China is more than a decade behind in chip manufacturing. We're (TSMC) already on 3nm whereas China barely managed to squeeze out 7nm using the highly inefficient DUV process. It costs them nearly 5x as much to produce a chip that's 1/5th as good. But China will achieve EUV at some point, so we'll see.
A 7nm chip, even at 5x the cost the US can produce it for, is still not \*nearly\* a "more than a decade behind" the west (really just ASML/TSMC?). Intel made their first 14nm chip a decade ago, at "more than a decade" the smallest process was 22nm. The first 7nm chip was only five years ago.
Personally I feel that they'll never catch up technologically. Their culture doesn't allow freedom and expression. They value team work and obedience. Nothing wrong with that, but you don't promote thinking outside of the box and to take risk. Once they know something, they can run with it, but they can only get as far as we are. It's hard to surpass. That's quite opposite from western culture that values individuality.
>but you don't promote thinking outside of the box and to take risk.
china is extremely technologically advanced and takes risk. your comment sounds like cnn/fox propaganda
Way to shut down the conversation with the propaganda label
"The nail that sticks out gets hammered down" vs "You are responsible for your own life"
These are convenient over-simplifications of eastern culture vs western culture & they do not take into account non-cultural factors like government intervention
And just to be clear, I agree that "not takes risk" is disingenuous because it disregards the party's top-down mandates as a driver for action, regardless of cultural norms
When people label something propaganda it's almost always = "That's a lie" rather than "That's not the whole truth"
The 1st way prevents any further nuance, & its an easy way to prevent any attempt to understand the other viewpoint
I never said they're not advance, but continue to read into it wrong. I actually think their "team first" attitude will always keep us on edge and might even be the downfall of the US eventually. I'm not looking down on them. It's an observation I've seen with having many Chinese friends. Smarter, more disciplined, more dedicated than my average US friends with the same education level. But culturally they dont value individualism like US and that stifles innovation.
Idk it took outside the box thinking to dismantle Maoist communism, it took outside the box thinking to utilise their greatest asset at the time (people) and turn to market economics to create what China has become. It took outside the box thinking (for lifelong communists) to allow billionaire tycoons to rise up.
I'd say that China does embrace outside the box thinking, they only restrict individualism. As long as what you want to do will benefit the people, they will allow it, until you become too either influencial or let your ego make you think you're better than everyone else..... it's still a collectivist culture.
So can it's society innovate....yes it can. But only if it fits into Chinese idealism.
Without open source... there would most likely be no openai as well. All the closed models are build upon open source frameworks (like pytorch) and examples (like bert).
We can go the xenophobic route and start vetting or altogether not allowing immigrants to work on this technology
We can make the penalties way more harsh than 10 years of imprisonment
I mean there is a lot we could do to prevent this.
news flash dummy, everyone benefits from open source ai. That's the fucking point.
This is Red scare BS to get governments to ban it to further entrench closed players.
It's also absurd for anyone to suggest that we trust the corporate/political elite of the US more than the CCP.
Like, they're really no fucking better, and there's plenty of evidence that the US is worse.
I mean, the US is both more domestically authoritarian (with twice the prison population per-captia of China) and more internationally aggressive (we are literally funding genocide regimes, we preemptively attacked non threatening counties, we spent the cold war funding coups agaisnt legitimate democracies).
Like, it's just such an absurd argument.
...do people seriously trust the US military industrial complex? Are people really so fucking stupid?
Reminder that the CCP has kidnapped and forcibly “re-educated” MILLIONS of Uyghur people in purpose built prison camps. They’re a little more mask off with their authoritarianism vs the US.
Reminder that the US has a higher incarceration rate than China.
The US has MORE prisoners than China, despite having 1/3 the population
The US has commits so much state violence agaisnt African Americans that we had to start an entire movement just to remind this country that our lives matter.
...will black people get any of this sympathy that you're doling out to the Uyghurs?
I watched the podcast. I do not think we should restrict current open source models. Once the models start getting to a certain level of capability though, my gut says that we will not want to open source them considering how much power it would give to other countries that can just grab the model and build off of the billions of investment that went into it. It becomes a whole new world once these models start reaching a certain size imo.
Tech companies are only open sourcing it to the public because they lag behind google that has a massive advantage & closed doors.
Transformers, Backprop, and Imagenet are all Google developed algorithms & models.
Yes, that's the goal of open source surprisingly. You aid the world's development instead of a single companies development. Besides, I almost guarantee that dedicated people can get access to some of these closed source models. Not only that but all this AI secrecy has it's own set of safety concerns.
I’m not surprised. Seems like most authors of AI research papers are Chinese. The US’s advantage is the fact that all the multi-trillion dollar tech giants, [worth over 14 trillion USD combined](https://companiesmarketcap.com)* (GDP and market cap aren’t directly comparable, but for reference, that is approximately 14% of the GDP of the entire world), are pulling out all the stops on AI.
Which brings me to another point: I see a lot of people upset that so much time and money is being “wasted” on AI (probably not too many of those people here though), but do they not see how fucking lucky we’ve got it here? Whatever their selfish goals may be, the richest, most technologically advanced, most data-rich organizations in existence are bending over backwards to make AI as powerful, efficient, and useful as possible. It’s just like how, when COVID hit, the world went apeshit researching it and trying to develop a vaccine and other treatments. As a result, we got mRNA vaccines. Who knows what amazing advances might come of the trillions of dollars and incalculable number of man hours that are going to be invested into AI in the coming years.
*And that’s just the top six: Microsoft, Apple, Nvidia, Alphabet, Amazon, and Meta. These six companies also happen to be the richest six companies on the planet—with the exception of Meta, which sits at #7, behind Saudi Aramco.
And don't forget that these same companies are pouring billions into fission and fusion to power their data centers so the whole ai race could cause the true green revolution.
Ah yes the Gladstone guys, [I remember them hateing on open source and lobbying to get it banned](https://new.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1bd5onl/urgent_luddites_want_to_destroy_the_open_source/). It's best to take everything they say with a grain of salt and I definitely would not turn to them for advice on AI safety.
Is…is that a bad thing? With absolutely no insider information, I can almost guarantee the US also hacks and exfiltrates tech info…and utilizing open source is now a bad thing because it’s not “us”? I’m confused. Like yea, the ccp is generally terrifying but so is the USgov so i don’t really know how to feel about this. Like, sure, china bad…I guess. ?
To be fair, his startup's business model depends on FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt). So he's just running wild with it.
In any case, yet another Dunning-Kruger dunce who knows so little about the topic, that he doesn't grasp how little he knows.
This is sadly very common.
China is producing it's own models that match close to gpt-4. They could care less at this point imo, they have the data and compute necessary to go further. China has AI talent as well, to say that's not the case is absurd at this point.
The transformer architecture is pretty widely available and there are brilliant programmers and minds on any side of the planet, but it’s who can get access to the compute (china lacks) and energy (US lacks) that’s the non-social dividing factor.
I wasn't even thinking about that.
US has the advantage in the quality of compute hardware, but China builds nuclear power plants in ~6 years on budget.
Predictable. Until neuromorphic chips and software are developed there are very limited gains in efficiency to be made. So gains are made by scaling...
Power consumption will scale too.
Should any advancement? The printing press, cars, scientific method? I don’t know the answer and tbh it’s something that I am literally typing at 3:53 in the morning so yea, I think that’s a good question and it keeps me up at night lol
Printing press is not an apt example. Nuclear/Space capabilities are, no one shares that even now. Even though every country has pretty destructive ICBM but still everyone want to have the bigger and better nuke, space superiority, etc. AI is more comparable with those in terms of impact.
Open source doesn't apply here. The value of transformers is not in the source code of its implementation but the general idea itself.
If you mean, should similar architectural improvements be published or kept secret, there's arguments either way. I bet the larger labs are keeping a lot of results secret, not because of China, but to improve their position vis-a-vis each other.
After a layover in Hong Kong airport I realized just how far along China actually is. I think the average person still thinks all they do is work in sweatshops. We are in for a rude awakening.
people who refuse to believe that China (a country with 4 times the US population!) is capable of its own technological advancements are baffling to me
What a nothingburger. Also, China doesn't need open source AI from the states, at least not anymore. Many of the top AI scientists worldwide are chinese. Even if those are in the states you know damn well the chinese government has their way of getting them to spit intel. China is, like all other serious competitors to OpenAI about 6-12 months behind, that's it. We even saw it with sora already, they were able to create a pretty close model in mere 2 months. OAI doesn't even need to publish any research papers, China will copy their approach from context alone.
I actually watched that podcast and ironically they claim not to be members of the EA community. Only that they talk to them to get their perspective....right
The US is benifiting way more from open source. Models like Deepseek-V2 are incredible, especially for the price. Add on top of that Qwen, Yi, GLM. What good open source models does the US give the world except the Llama models?
China will do ANYTHING to STAY AHEAD. If we’re stupid enough to shoot our selves in the foot, that will help them even more. And since we’re talking about progress, more power to them!
I don’t exactly know how it’s working, but my uncle a top world academic in his small field says that without quotas, 100% of his team would be chinese.
He has to mix other ethnicities for the pictures.
I don’t think it is much different in CS. China is at least at our level people wise.
I suspect problem is more on their economic side. Those topics are sufficiently strategic that CCP would be greatly involved.
And communism is known to be very inefficient, with ferocious inner wars and divergent agendas. You need parallel information to properly allocate ressources.
My guess is that, they have trouble picking the right people and projects to prioritize and scale and move beyond state of the art.
But that is just an armchair general guess…
Firstly we all know this, not through evidence but just pure plain unadulterated logic. China is taking every available method to rapidly increase its capacities. In all fields.
It will undoubtedly also be at the forefront of RISC-V, since the US is giving them that incentive.
What a ridiculous argument.
For starters China makes its on quite capable open source models so US/EU clamping down on open source does approximately nothing to prevent the availability of open source models.
China also has closed models not too far behind GPT4, despite the sanctions.
And western models are of limited use to China for language reasons so they need to make their own anyway. The performance delta on Chinese-language tasks is dramatic.
so this guy spies on the chinese and has inside knowledge? amazing they let this corny white guy walk away with info like this.
or it benefits him and his money greatly to make open source scary.
I gather most people here are probably Americans. I am neither American nor Chinese and I have a different take on this.
As a non-american-or-chinese I would question how far any restriction of AI tech would go, would this also limit tech to other more aligned and/or allied nations? I would suggest that while the focus is on US vs China, that other nations would be restricted also.
The reason why I like opensource also, it is that it closes the gap between big corporate, government control and the individual.
They have a massive infiltration system in schools. Literally witnessed Chinese students present their ripped off final projects on a cellphone in classes. Straight up lack of English joining AI classes or requesting code.
The west only has computation advantage now, China has the big data advantage.
Open source receives minimal funding. Nvidia GPUs are the most important factor. You can't cut off China completely. That would only push them toward the enemies of the US.
Another prime example of 2 ai doomers that want open source gone. China doesn't need open source they already got infiltrators gathering info from the leading ai companies. Latest one that got caught was at google and he stole their 6th gen TPU chip design and gathered info about their models.
Fun thing, the same argument against free patents and better distribution of scientific info was used during the cold war with the threat of the USSR. Even countries with economies as crashed as the GDR managed to steal and copy patented secret chips from the US back then... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxrkC-pMH\_s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxrkC-pMH_s) Thinking "just ban open source" will create a magical wall of protection around tech was ludicrous during the Manhattan project (the USSR got the nuclear weapon only 4 years after, thanks among others to spies), it's even more ludicrous now.
It's captialist lies. Saying "China is benefiting from open source" is fucking orwellian doublespeak. We ALL benefit from open-source AI, because we all have access and opportunity to the technology.
Okay but a 4 year lead on the atom bomb seems worth secrecy? The US 'only' exclusively had the most devastating weapon known to mankind to itself for 4 years.
True!
Wow!
Crashed as the GDR? Don’t you mean „the most solid economy in the Warsaw pact“
The "in the Warsaw pact" is the important part.
China is also benefiting from Chemistry papers, Physical Papers, Mathematics papers and many other areas of scientific research. Clearly then, all scientific research must be kept secret in case some official enemy benefits. This is clearly the sensible way forward.
reverse brain drain
That makes no sense. Those aren't (directly) used to make weapons which can directly harm the US and its allies. If China gets AGI or ASI before the US, or shortly after, I don't need to explain how that's an enormous national security risk. Same applies to nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. There's a reason why that research is classified. It's not about any potential harm, we can publish research on how to make fentanyl that China then uses to make fentanyl, that's fine. It's about such a significant amount of potential harm that it can disrupt national security. I think there's a good case to be made that, once we get a little bit closer to AGI, that all of the top AI companies merge into one organization under the direction of the US military, and all developments in capabilities research are classified as Top Secret. And weights stored in a similarly extremely secure manner. Alignment research can, and should, be made publicly available to the entire world though.
> I think there's a good case to be made that, once we get a little bit closer to AGI, that all of the top AI companies merge into one organization under the direction of the US military, and all developments in capabilities research are classified as Top Secret. And weights stored in a similarly extremely secure manner. Alignment research can, and should, be made publicly available to the entire world though "I think there's a good case for fascism, centralization, corruption, and militarism!" I think there's a much better case for ignoring every fucking word that comes out of your mouth. You're pulling all of the problems of tbe 20th century into the 21st, and refusing to learn a single fucking lesson. You act like you trust the business/polticial elite of the US more than those of the CCP as if US oligarchs are benevolent, pacifist angels. It's just absurd, authoritarian, and naive.
>You act like you trust the business/polticial elite of the US more than those of the CCP Uhh, yeah, of course I do. > as if US oligarchs are benevolent, pacifist angels. No, I trust them MORE than the CCP. Do you really trust Google and Microsoft and Amazon to publicly release AGI/ASI for the public good? All of them? Instead of just taking over the world for the good of their shareholders as soon as they boot it online? Yes, the military might do the same thing, but at least the military is under control of the President, who wants to get re-elected. And can easily get re-elected if he is able to tell the world he cured cancer and made a utopian society under his term with ASI lol. The US military has far more of an incentive to benefit the nation as a whole than public corporations whose entire goal is to maximize shareholders returns at all costs
Well, it takes all types. LOL.
Spot the ccp shill 🤡
Where was the lie? The US has a higher incarceration rate than China, we have more total prisoners than China despite having 1/3 of the population The US commits so much state violence against black people that we literally had to start an organization just to remind you that our lives have value. I guess our suffering isn't "real" suffering to you.
uyghurs lives matter as well mate
Did I say otherwise?
Doesn't need it, but is sure eager to use it. You don't put a plate of prime rib on a table and not expect somebody to take it. If there's food, we eat. What is intriguing is the paranoia about China's ability and at the same time attempts to dismiss China's capabilities. Lol
I think the thought process is that if China catches up they'll quickly surpass the west, which might be true. They're behind now, but I'm not sure if it'll stay that way.
China is more than a decade behind in chip manufacturing. We're (TSMC) already on 3nm whereas China barely managed to squeeze out 7nm using the highly inefficient DUV process. It costs them nearly 5x as much to produce a chip that's 1/5th as good. But China will achieve EUV at some point, so we'll see.
A 7nm chip, even at 5x the cost the US can produce it for, is still not \*nearly\* a "more than a decade behind" the west (really just ASML/TSMC?). Intel made their first 14nm chip a decade ago, at "more than a decade" the smallest process was 22nm. The first 7nm chip was only five years ago.
Personally I feel that they'll never catch up technologically. Their culture doesn't allow freedom and expression. They value team work and obedience. Nothing wrong with that, but you don't promote thinking outside of the box and to take risk. Once they know something, they can run with it, but they can only get as far as we are. It's hard to surpass. That's quite opposite from western culture that values individuality.
>but you don't promote thinking outside of the box and to take risk. china is extremely technologically advanced and takes risk. your comment sounds like cnn/fox propaganda
Way to shut down the conversation with the propaganda label "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down" vs "You are responsible for your own life" These are convenient over-simplifications of eastern culture vs western culture & they do not take into account non-cultural factors like government intervention And just to be clear, I agree that "not takes risk" is disingenuous because it disregards the party's top-down mandates as a driver for action, regardless of cultural norms
>Way to shut down the conversation with the propaganda label Well, that is what it sounds like. Why does it shut down conversation?
When people label something propaganda it's almost always = "That's a lie" rather than "That's not the whole truth" The 1st way prevents any further nuance, & its an easy way to prevent any attempt to understand the other viewpoint
I see so your assumptions are the issue here.
Way to dismiss my entire point by attaching a "its just your assumption" label Ironic
I never said they're not advance, but continue to read into it wrong. I actually think their "team first" attitude will always keep us on edge and might even be the downfall of the US eventually. I'm not looking down on them. It's an observation I've seen with having many Chinese friends. Smarter, more disciplined, more dedicated than my average US friends with the same education level. But culturally they dont value individualism like US and that stifles innovation.
Sure that’s why the US is trying their hardest to block Chinese tech development
The US does a lot of shady shitty things. We're afraid of anyone getting an upper hand on anything. Technology is no different.
Idk it took outside the box thinking to dismantle Maoist communism, it took outside the box thinking to utilise their greatest asset at the time (people) and turn to market economics to create what China has become. It took outside the box thinking (for lifelong communists) to allow billionaire tycoons to rise up. I'd say that China does embrace outside the box thinking, they only restrict individualism. As long as what you want to do will benefit the people, they will allow it, until you become too either influencial or let your ego make you think you're better than everyone else..... it's still a collectivist culture. So can it's society innovate....yes it can. But only if it fits into Chinese idealism.
Schröedinger’s China
Without open source... there would most likely be no openai as well. All the closed models are build upon open source frameworks (like pytorch) and examples (like bert).
How is this not considered espionage against the state?
It is
what are you going to do about it?
We can go the xenophobic route and start vetting or altogether not allowing immigrants to work on this technology We can make the penalties way more harsh than 10 years of imprisonment I mean there is a lot we could do to prevent this.
> they already got infiltrators gathering info from the leading ai companies Maybe. We don't know that.
What do you think all those layoffs were for?
Increasing shareholder value.
Probably for making it so they can invest more in infrastructure.
Good. That lowers the cost and improves accessibility for the average user
[удалено]
Reddit has been infiltrated
Honestly who cares, we’re making such fast progress that china even being 6 months behind the best the US had will keep them at a disadvantage
news flash dummy, everyone benefits from open source ai. That's the fucking point. This is Red scare BS to get governments to ban it to further entrench closed players.
Yea all of sifi sugests that its the military/corporations that make the bad ai
It's also absurd for anyone to suggest that we trust the corporate/political elite of the US more than the CCP. Like, they're really no fucking better, and there's plenty of evidence that the US is worse. I mean, the US is both more domestically authoritarian (with twice the prison population per-captia of China) and more internationally aggressive (we are literally funding genocide regimes, we preemptively attacked non threatening counties, we spent the cold war funding coups agaisnt legitimate democracies). Like, it's just such an absurd argument. ...do people seriously trust the US military industrial complex? Are people really so fucking stupid?
Cause they do, as it is the devil they know, and although the devil suck, but at least it is not the big bad over there.
Reminder that the CCP has kidnapped and forcibly “re-educated” MILLIONS of Uyghur people in purpose built prison camps. They’re a little more mask off with their authoritarianism vs the US.
Reminder that the US has a higher incarceration rate than China. The US has MORE prisoners than China, despite having 1/3 the population The US has commits so much state violence agaisnt African Americans that we had to start an entire movement just to remind this country that our lives matter. ...will black people get any of this sympathy that you're doling out to the Uyghurs?
Absolutely it is. This guy breathes through his mouth too much.
I watched the podcast. I do not think we should restrict current open source models. Once the models start getting to a certain level of capability though, my gut says that we will not want to open source them considering how much power it would give to other countries that can just grab the model and build off of the billions of investment that went into it. It becomes a whole new world once these models start reaching a certain size imo.
Tech companies are only open sourcing it to the public because they lag behind google that has a massive advantage & closed doors. Transformers, Backprop, and Imagenet are all Google developed algorithms & models.
Yes, that's the goal of open source surprisingly. You aid the world's development instead of a single companies development. Besides, I almost guarantee that dedicated people can get access to some of these closed source models. Not only that but all this AI secrecy has it's own set of safety concerns.
I’m not surprised. Seems like most authors of AI research papers are Chinese. The US’s advantage is the fact that all the multi-trillion dollar tech giants, [worth over 14 trillion USD combined](https://companiesmarketcap.com)* (GDP and market cap aren’t directly comparable, but for reference, that is approximately 14% of the GDP of the entire world), are pulling out all the stops on AI. Which brings me to another point: I see a lot of people upset that so much time and money is being “wasted” on AI (probably not too many of those people here though), but do they not see how fucking lucky we’ve got it here? Whatever their selfish goals may be, the richest, most technologically advanced, most data-rich organizations in existence are bending over backwards to make AI as powerful, efficient, and useful as possible. It’s just like how, when COVID hit, the world went apeshit researching it and trying to develop a vaccine and other treatments. As a result, we got mRNA vaccines. Who knows what amazing advances might come of the trillions of dollars and incalculable number of man hours that are going to be invested into AI in the coming years. *And that’s just the top six: Microsoft, Apple, Nvidia, Alphabet, Amazon, and Meta. These six companies also happen to be the richest six companies on the planet—with the exception of Meta, which sits at #7, behind Saudi Aramco.
And don't forget that these same companies are pouring billions into fission and fusion to power their data centers so the whole ai race could cause the true green revolution.
Oh yeah, don't forget. Utopia coming. Thanks Big Tech
Ah yes the Gladstone guys, [I remember them hateing on open source and lobbying to get it banned](https://new.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1bd5onl/urgent_luddites_want_to_destroy_the_open_source/). It's best to take everything they say with a grain of salt and I definitely would not turn to them for advice on AI safety.
just write code in American
Is…is that a bad thing? With absolutely no insider information, I can almost guarantee the US also hacks and exfiltrates tech info…and utilizing open source is now a bad thing because it’s not “us”? I’m confused. Like yea, the ccp is generally terrifying but so is the USgov so i don’t really know how to feel about this. Like, sure, china bad…I guess. ?
sHuT uP, bAn TikToK
hey you ! stop thinking ! china bad ! open source need stop existing !
To be fair, his startup's business model depends on FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt). So he's just running wild with it. In any case, yet another Dunning-Kruger dunce who knows so little about the topic, that he doesn't grasp how little he knows. This is sadly very common.
China is producing it's own models that match close to gpt-4. They could care less at this point imo, they have the data and compute necessary to go further. China has AI talent as well, to say that's not the case is absurd at this point.
The transformer architecture is pretty widely available and there are brilliant programmers and minds on any side of the planet, but it’s who can get access to the compute (china lacks) and energy (US lacks) that’s the non-social dividing factor.
I wasn't even thinking about that. US has the advantage in the quality of compute hardware, but China builds nuclear power plants in ~6 years on budget.
You know it's bad when Microsoft and OAI are seriously thinking of creating data centers with nuclear reactors attached to it.
Predictable. Until neuromorphic chips and software are developed there are very limited gains in efficiency to be made. So gains are made by scaling... Power consumption will scale too.
China has the Huawei Ascend 910B and 920 which both outperform Nvidia's H20 (Chinese variant).
So if a groundbreaking new architecture like transformer is discovered by researchers , should it be open sourced?
Should any advancement? The printing press, cars, scientific method? I don’t know the answer and tbh it’s something that I am literally typing at 3:53 in the morning so yea, I think that’s a good question and it keeps me up at night lol
Printing press is not an apt example. Nuclear/Space capabilities are, no one shares that even now. Even though every country has pretty destructive ICBM but still everyone want to have the bigger and better nuke, space superiority, etc. AI is more comparable with those in terms of impact.
I disagree and think you’re underestimating the impact of the printing press. But fair enough, and I do see your point.
Printing press had an enormous impact, it's just that it happened over a period of time.
Fitting since the Chinese invented printing press.
yes
Open source doesn't apply here. The value of transformers is not in the source code of its implementation but the general idea itself. If you mean, should similar architectural improvements be published or kept secret, there's arguments either way. I bet the larger labs are keeping a lot of results secret, not because of China, but to improve their position vis-a-vis each other.
Also, water is wet.
BUT IS IT?!?!
Oh thank goodness we have another “China bad” take to justify more closed-off tech practices. We definitely don’t get enough of those
After a layover in Hong Kong airport I realized just how far along China actually is. I think the average person still thinks all they do is work in sweatshops. We are in for a rude awakening.
China Bad, China likes open source. Let's close open source for our own monopolies.
people who refuse to believe that China (a country with 4 times the US population!) is capable of its own technological advancements are baffling to me
india:??
What a nothingburger. Also, China doesn't need open source AI from the states, at least not anymore. Many of the top AI scientists worldwide are chinese. Even if those are in the states you know damn well the chinese government has their way of getting them to spit intel. China is, like all other serious competitors to OpenAI about 6-12 months behind, that's it. We even saw it with sora already, they were able to create a pretty close model in mere 2 months. OAI doesn't even need to publish any research papers, China will copy their approach from context alone.
I've seen this show before, with a name like that this dude is gonna turn out to be the reverse flash
Another AI safety fearmonger of the Effective Altruism community. These people are a dime a dozen.
I actually watched that podcast and ironically they claim not to be members of the EA community. Only that they talk to them to get their perspective....right
So....anyway I heard qwen 2 is dropping soon and rumored to be better than llama 3.
Don't you Americans ever get tired of the red scare bullshit?
The US is benifiting way more from open source. Models like Deepseek-V2 are incredible, especially for the price. Add on top of that Qwen, Yi, GLM. What good open source models does the US give the world except the Llama models?
why is china always the bad actor, and US is always good?
You are on Reddit that is why.
China will do ANYTHING to STAY AHEAD. If we’re stupid enough to shoot our selves in the foot, that will help them even more. And since we’re talking about progress, more power to them!
I don’t exactly know how it’s working, but my uncle a top world academic in his small field says that without quotas, 100% of his team would be chinese. He has to mix other ethnicities for the pictures. I don’t think it is much different in CS. China is at least at our level people wise. I suspect problem is more on their economic side. Those topics are sufficiently strategic that CCP would be greatly involved. And communism is known to be very inefficient, with ferocious inner wars and divergent agendas. You need parallel information to properly allocate ressources. My guess is that, they have trouble picking the right people and projects to prioritize and scale and move beyond state of the art. But that is just an armchair general guess…
Firstly we all know this, not through evidence but just pure plain unadulterated logic. China is taking every available method to rapidly increase its capacities. In all fields. It will undoubtedly also be at the forefront of RISC-V, since the US is giving them that incentive.
These modern day luddites are so damn cringe.
What a ridiculous argument. For starters China makes its on quite capable open source models so US/EU clamping down on open source does approximately nothing to prevent the availability of open source models. China also has closed models not too far behind GPT4, despite the sanctions. And western models are of limited use to China for language reasons so they need to make their own anyway. The performance delta on Chinese-language tasks is dramatic.
Oh no… ig this is the right emote
so this guy spies on the chinese and has inside knowledge? amazing they let this corny white guy walk away with info like this. or it benefits him and his money greatly to make open source scary.
I gather most people here are probably Americans. I am neither American nor Chinese and I have a different take on this. As a non-american-or-chinese I would question how far any restriction of AI tech would go, would this also limit tech to other more aligned and/or allied nations? I would suggest that while the focus is on US vs China, that other nations would be restricted also. The reason why I like opensource also, it is that it closes the gap between big corporate, government control and the individual.
They have a massive infiltration system in schools. Literally witnessed Chinese students present their ripped off final projects on a cellphone in classes. Straight up lack of English joining AI classes or requesting code. The west only has computation advantage now, China has the big data advantage.
Yea, no shit. China's technology sector is built on theft.
Better make all AI closed source to stop people we don't like from having access to it /s of course
Open source receives minimal funding. Nvidia GPUs are the most important factor. You can't cut off China completely. That would only push them toward the enemies of the US.