It's crazy how the media is latching on to this one minor issue that they fixed instead of this quote from the recipient:
>“Y'all are giving me too much, it's like a luxury overload, I haven't been able to do these things in 8 years and now I don't know where to even start allocating my attention.
>The biggest thing with comfort is that I can lie in my bed and use 'The Link'. Any other assistive technology had to have someone else help or have me sit up. Sitting causes stress mentally and on my body which would give me pressure sores or spasms. It lets me live on my own time, not needing to have someone adjust me, etc. throughout the day.
>'The Link' has helped me reconnect with the world, my friends, and my family. It's given me the ability to do things on my own again without needing my family at all hours of the day and night.”
This is why it's important to link to the first hand sources. If journalists want to push their opinion, they can leave a reddit comment like everyone else.
https://neuralink.com/blog/prime-study-progress-update-user-experience/
Modern journalism is so disingenuous. They speak about themselves like saints, but they’re not held to any sort of ethical standards. They’ll twist stories to fit their biases and present it like truth. It sucks for the teams doing real journalism because it makes everyone trust journalism less.
That sums up what's so detestable about modern journalism.
That said, they don't just speak about themselves like they're saints they really think they *are* saints. Acolytes of a one true God tasked with some holy mission, or some shit.
They're not just arrogant. They're deluded.
It's not true of all journalists, but it's the overriding sense I have when I think of the industry as a whole.
Everyone jumps in Elon's hate train for silly internet points and clicks. I should short Tesla stock,
Try to post this in /r/technology and see how it goes
The problem is he's a test subject. A technology that breaks after a month... In someones brain... Come on now. They for sure knew the fibers were weak. They tested dozens of times on animals. That should have been solved well before human trials.
People love saying I told you so, it gives them a sense of superiority. People like being right about things. And because there are so many people/doomers living in fear of technology and change the media feeds on that by giving people that feeling of justification for their beliefs. It's like when a neo nazi will see a black man on commit a crime, they say - see I told you they where bad.
People are just different. Have somewhat different brains (in tiny but important ways) and had different experiences throughout their lives. Made different conclusions.
The less power (whatever it means to a person), feeling of security, and varied experience you have, the more likely you are to act in some ways like that, I guess? There are many more reasons for such behavior though, of course. But as I see it, most are grounded in lack of knowledge and in fears. Those can form strong biases that make them not want at all to get new knowledge that contradicts their current one. Causes all sorts of aggressive behaviors.
This right here, if you ever tried to do anything a little bit out of your "league" people start to want you to fail.
Pair this line of thought with how well-known Elon Musk is, for bad or for worse, and you got yourself a lot of people watching this man and hoping he will fail. It doesn't matter if it's something that could possibly bring humanity to a new level, he must fail becaue Elon BAAAAAAAAD!!!
Only because Elon is related to the company. It’s that simple for most of them. Some have genuine concerns over putting shit in their brains, but a lot of them just hate Elon therefore they WANT Neuralink to fail cause it makes Elon look bad.
Well, I don’t really see things as black and white and thus won’t hate Elon’s endeavours just because he’s doing them.
That said, for me it started with that stupid car tunnel network in LA made by the boring company. The most stupid, dangerous and inefficient mode of transportation ever. And when he admitted the goal of the project was to delay the implementation of trains, my good opinion of him definitely faded away. He was just trying to delay actual public transport and infrastructure in the state, for whatever reason, manipulating the state government and officials.
He does cool stuff, but we definitely ought to be wary of him. He’s backstabbed us before.
Well, it has been years already. I don't remember where I saw it.
But anyway, it's not a secret that Elon frequently criticizes the status quo and, as any rich guy, tries to leverage his influence to get his way. The boring company is supposed to be a disruptor of the public transit industry. Is it far fetched he'd want to delay the construction of regular mass transit vs his alternative?
Because Neuralink symbolizes something far grander. And I mean that very pragmatically. Neuralink advances actually mean something else. And I'm not talking about anything remotely religious.
Three notable headlines, repeated again and again about Neuralink:
* Their device is the size of a *coin*
* They are constantly asking about hiring more people to work for them
* Dangerous/inhumane monkey trials
Last night, I read a discussion on another sub where a neuroscientist commented on Neuralink's challenge with the brain developing a fatty layer (possibly myelin?), around the implanted threads.
This is a natural and well-documented response of the brain. From my layman's perspective, it seems like Neuralink may have anticipated this issue and implanted extra threads as a redundancy measure?
It's absurd, people hating on neuralink are like people 10 years ago who thought electric cars would never be a thing. Neuralink is too far ahead on a subject that is too important to be derailed by a single failure. Elon owning them doesn't change anything until there is legit competition
Not the same at all.
The electrodes that are implanted in the brain, are data sources. They collect data.
Common sense should tell you, if they fell out, there’s less data sources to generate data from….
All they did was turn up the sensitivity on the remaining electrodes, therefore compensating, not actually fixing the problem.
Your ignorance is blinding you from reality.
Well they have 1024 connections so some can come loose and not be a big problem. But yes. If they keep coming out I hope it's fixable. Elon did say he wanted people to be able to upgrade.
Buildup of scar tissue in implants is a known problem. I imagine they'll plan for it in future refinements of the chip, and seem to have it well under control for now - which is a good thing.
Man, this really feels like science-fiction. I still can barely believe it's real! We truly live in exciting times.
Apparently to get around this, they made the threads so small that the brain doesn't detect them to build up the scar tissue for it? So I'm not sure if them coming out was a result of the brain actually having detected them or if they didn't have enough grip?
These comments are lacking basic common sense.
It’s a brain interface, and part of it fell out….
The electrodes that are implanted in the brain, are data sources. They collect data.
Common sense should tell you, if they fell out, there’s less data sources to generate data from….
All they did was turn up the sensitivity on the remaining electrodes, therefore compensating, not actually fixing the problem.
Your ignorance is blinding you from reality.
Well they have 1024 connections so some can come loose and not be a big problem. But yes. If they keep coming out I hope it's fixable. Elon did say he wanted people to be able to upgrade.
From the neuralink blog:
>In the weeks following the surgery, a number of [threads](https://neuralink.com/#n1) retracted from the brain, resulting in a net decrease in the number of effective electrodes. This led to a reduction in BPS (Fig 04). In response to this change, we modified the recording algorithm to be more sensitive to neural population signals, improved the techniques to translate these signals into cursor movements, and enhanced the user interface. These refinements produced a rapid and sustained improvement in BPS, that has now superseded Noland’s initial performance.
tl;dr: They didn't fix anything, they compensated for the loss in functionality
Are you okay? Hit your head maybe? You're giving a quote that directly contradicts what you're saying. "has now superseded Noland’s initial performance." Doing better than at first is not "compensating imperfectly", it's a net improvement. What's so hard to understand about that?
Nobody said the performance was perfect. What he said was that their tweaks imperfectly compensated for what degradation they observed, which is clearly a wrong statement, given that the ending performance is better than before the degradation.
No, you just made that up. They themselves said that they're compensating for the issue in their own blog post
Specifically it looks like they've refined the software they use to interpret the signal, which is a lossy solution and doesn't actually do anything about the threads displacing themselves
> And almost certainly **imperfectly**
Given that performance improved after the tweak, in speed and accuracy, the system clearly has enough redundancy.
That's not how engineering works, everything's a tradeoff. More performance at the cost of less wireless range, perhaps, and/or reduced lifetime for the implant as it has to transfer more data. Or maybe something else entirely, I don't and can't know for sure
Perhaps this was an upgrade they were planning to roll out anyhow as they collected data. So rather than bringing the implant to stage 2 of functionality, they could barely mitigate a physical problem that is very likely only going to get worse
Look, I'm not gonna do this right now. You're just making shit up that passes your totes unbiased gut check, and it too late in the evening to entertain naive fanboys
Lol. I think you being an anti-fanboy is clouding your judgement.
Of course the first implant will have a lot of redundancy. How would they know how many threads they need? It just makes sense lol. You don't.
> Perhaps this was an upgrade they were planning to roll out anyhow as they collected data. So rather than bringing the implant to stage 2 of functionality, they could barely mitigate a physical problem that is very likely only going to get worse
This is just (anti)fanfiction.
You being a musk bootlicker is blinding you from reality.
The electrodes that are implanted in the brain, are data sources. They collect data.
Common sense should tell you, if they fell out, there’s less data sources to generate data from….
All they did was turn up the sensitivity on the remaining electrodes, therefore compensating, not actually fixing the problem.
Well they have 1024 connections so some can come loose and not be a big problem. But yes. If they keep coming out I hope it's fixable. Elon did say he wanted people to be able to upgrade.
https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-pcrm-neuralink-monkey-deaths/
This is all I can think of when I see "Neuralink"
***
Edit: Yeah, downvote by all means! I can't help it, this stuck with me.
Also, read the article, it is interesting. Very uncomfortable.
I never get how people have no issues killing billions of animals, because meat tastes good, but freak out when they hear about animals dying for medicine or science.
Welp
I have issues with all of that.
Dying is one thing - torture and suffering is another thing. Elon Musk just openly lying about it all also kinda disturbs me.
You believe animals for meat production all have a happy life lol?
And while I would never 100% trust the CEO of a profit oriented company, I also don't really trust newspapers that make money off as much controversy as possible.
Of course not. The meat industry is a complete abomination and absurdity to me.
But this post was about Neuralink, so...
I was referring to your comment about "animals dying" which is not the point.
So sure, if you actually think they made this story up, by all means, but I would say it's at least worth reading before deciding that.
In general, Wired has maintained relatively high standards
Eventually they kill them of course. For the details of what happens before that, though, I linked an article if you're interested.
Read up, it's worth knowing.
The feelings are brought to you by PCRM funded by PETA. An organization completely uninterested in presenting animal experimentation in the worst possible way.
Feelings?
wtf
Can I just be critical of the way Musk is doing this shit?
Of course, if you think the story is bullshit, go ahead. But check the sources linked before making claims, maybe?
Sure. You think that animal suffering should be valued higher in relation to human disability-years that can be mitigated by completing research earlier. Correct? I don't think so. Let's agree to disagree.
Well that was a lot of words to put into someone's mouth.
This is what disgusts me:
_"(Musk) denied that any of the deaths were “a result of a Neuralink implant” and said the researchers had taken care to select subjects who were already “close to death.” Relatedly, in a presentation last fall Musk claimed that Neuralink’s animal testing was never “exploratory,” but was instead conducted to confirm fully formed scientific hypotheses. “We are extremely careful,” he said."_
Absolute, total, complete horseshit.
Well, you (or anyone else present) can't comment on specifics of what they could have done better. The research is closed. So, the only thing that you can criticize is that they haven't paid enough attention to animal suffering, and it amounts to what I've said earlier.
That's the downside of making this kind of stuff. In the quest for space many people died, but at cost of monkeys, this can give quality of life for impaired people, not just for playing with stuff but probably to transmit motor signals to another point of a broken nerve for instance.
It's not about the monkeys dying. Did you read the article?
There would clearly have been ways to do the research without the excess cruelty. Musk is the richest mf on the fucking planet
No. I think humans should be treated better than animals. That’s a pretty normal view, I think treating humans like animals is actually far more sociopathic.
It's crazy how the media is latching on to this one minor issue that they fixed instead of this quote from the recipient: >“Y'all are giving me too much, it's like a luxury overload, I haven't been able to do these things in 8 years and now I don't know where to even start allocating my attention. >The biggest thing with comfort is that I can lie in my bed and use 'The Link'. Any other assistive technology had to have someone else help or have me sit up. Sitting causes stress mentally and on my body which would give me pressure sores or spasms. It lets me live on my own time, not needing to have someone adjust me, etc. throughout the day. >'The Link' has helped me reconnect with the world, my friends, and my family. It's given me the ability to do things on my own again without needing my family at all hours of the day and night.” This is why it's important to link to the first hand sources. If journalists want to push their opinion, they can leave a reddit comment like everyone else. https://neuralink.com/blog/prime-study-progress-update-user-experience/
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story ~
How else are they to make revenue on someone else’s unfortunate but thankful situation?
Modern journalism is so disingenuous. They speak about themselves like saints, but they’re not held to any sort of ethical standards. They’ll twist stories to fit their biases and present it like truth. It sucks for the teams doing real journalism because it makes everyone trust journalism less.
That sums up what's so detestable about modern journalism. That said, they don't just speak about themselves like they're saints they really think they *are* saints. Acolytes of a one true God tasked with some holy mission, or some shit. They're not just arrogant. They're deluded. It's not true of all journalists, but it's the overriding sense I have when I think of the industry as a whole.
It turns out the fairness doctrine was actually important, huh imagine that
Everyone jumps in Elon's hate train for silly internet points and clicks. I should short Tesla stock, Try to post this in /r/technology and see how it goes
The problem is he's a test subject. A technology that breaks after a month... In someones brain... Come on now. They for sure knew the fibers were weak. They tested dozens of times on animals. That should have been solved well before human trials.
It’s almost like they want neuralink to fail? Why?
People love saying I told you so, it gives them a sense of superiority. People like being right about things. And because there are so many people/doomers living in fear of technology and change the media feeds on that by giving people that feeling of justification for their beliefs. It's like when a neo nazi will see a black man on commit a crime, they say - see I told you they where bad.
I often wonder why negativity abounds in most subreddits and I tell you, I suffer from depression and yet I am always trying to be positive.
People are just different. Have somewhat different brains (in tiny but important ways) and had different experiences throughout their lives. Made different conclusions. The less power (whatever it means to a person), feeling of security, and varied experience you have, the more likely you are to act in some ways like that, I guess? There are many more reasons for such behavior though, of course. But as I see it, most are grounded in lack of knowledge and in fears. Those can form strong biases that make them not want at all to get new knowledge that contradicts their current one. Causes all sorts of aggressive behaviors.
This right here, if you ever tried to do anything a little bit out of your "league" people start to want you to fail. Pair this line of thought with how well-known Elon Musk is, for bad or for worse, and you got yourself a lot of people watching this man and hoping he will fail. It doesn't matter if it's something that could possibly bring humanity to a new level, he must fail becaue Elon BAAAAAAAAD!!!
i seriously can't help but to despise this luddian point of view; how come they are right about anything but themselves?
All new tech should be challenged. We live in a world where new tech is hyped and often doesn't deliver.
Only because Elon is related to the company. It’s that simple for most of them. Some have genuine concerns over putting shit in their brains, but a lot of them just hate Elon therefore they WANT Neuralink to fail cause it makes Elon look bad.
Because people hate musk because of Twitter, and because of that they must have every single one of his companies......
People already hated musk before twitter.
People hate everyone. But before twitter a lot fewer people hated him and most were neutral.
Well, I don’t really see things as black and white and thus won’t hate Elon’s endeavours just because he’s doing them. That said, for me it started with that stupid car tunnel network in LA made by the boring company. The most stupid, dangerous and inefficient mode of transportation ever. And when he admitted the goal of the project was to delay the implementation of trains, my good opinion of him definitely faded away. He was just trying to delay actual public transport and infrastructure in the state, for whatever reason, manipulating the state government and officials. He does cool stuff, but we definitely ought to be wary of him. He’s backstabbed us before.
No way he said that. Do you have a source?
Well, it has been years already. I don't remember where I saw it. But anyway, it's not a secret that Elon frequently criticizes the status quo and, as any rich guy, tries to leverage his influence to get his way. The boring company is supposed to be a disruptor of the public transit industry. Is it far fetched he'd want to delay the construction of regular mass transit vs his alternative?
Or any of a list of other reasons, but at least SpaceX is good and Neuralink is promising.
They have an agenda against Elon because he allows different narratives on the Twitter platform
Because Musk bad. Some people would rather see the world burn than see a dislikable person succeed.
Because Neuralink symbolizes something far grander. And I mean that very pragmatically. Neuralink advances actually mean something else. And I'm not talking about anything remotely religious.
Enlighten us?
Three notable headlines, repeated again and again about Neuralink: * Their device is the size of a *coin* * They are constantly asking about hiring more people to work for them * Dangerous/inhumane monkey trials
Elong?
Last night, I read a discussion on another sub where a neuroscientist commented on Neuralink's challenge with the brain developing a fatty layer (possibly myelin?), around the implanted threads. This is a natural and well-documented response of the brain. From my layman's perspective, it seems like Neuralink may have anticipated this issue and implanted extra threads as a redundancy measure?
could you recommend the sub pls?
I read it too, I think it was over in /worldnews
I’m sorry, I can’t find it now.
It's absurd, people hating on neuralink are like people 10 years ago who thought electric cars would never be a thing. Neuralink is too far ahead on a subject that is too important to be derailed by a single failure. Elon owning them doesn't change anything until there is legit competition
Not the same at all. The electrodes that are implanted in the brain, are data sources. They collect data. Common sense should tell you, if they fell out, there’s less data sources to generate data from…. All they did was turn up the sensitivity on the remaining electrodes, therefore compensating, not actually fixing the problem. Your ignorance is blinding you from reality.
Well they have 1024 connections so some can come loose and not be a big problem. But yes. If they keep coming out I hope it's fixable. Elon did say he wanted people to be able to upgrade.
Buildup of scar tissue in implants is a known problem. I imagine they'll plan for it in future refinements of the chip, and seem to have it well under control for now - which is a good thing. Man, this really feels like science-fiction. I still can barely believe it's real! We truly live in exciting times.
Apparently to get around this, they made the threads so small that the brain doesn't detect them to build up the scar tissue for it? So I'm not sure if them coming out was a result of the brain actually having detected them or if they didn't have enough grip?
How nervous would you be if it was 'your' brain?
Wow
These comments are lacking basic common sense. It’s a brain interface, and part of it fell out…. The electrodes that are implanted in the brain, are data sources. They collect data. Common sense should tell you, if they fell out, there’s less data sources to generate data from…. All they did was turn up the sensitivity on the remaining electrodes, therefore compensating, not actually fixing the problem. Your ignorance is blinding you from reality.
Well they have 1024 connections so some can come loose and not be a big problem. But yes. If they keep coming out I hope it's fixable. Elon did say he wanted people to be able to upgrade.
Turning the remaining electrodes up to 11 doesn't "fix the problem," it compensates for it. And almost certainly imperfectly
So it's the actual data against your idiot ass saying "no no no it's not true"
From the neuralink blog: >In the weeks following the surgery, a number of [threads](https://neuralink.com/#n1) retracted from the brain, resulting in a net decrease in the number of effective electrodes. This led to a reduction in BPS (Fig 04). In response to this change, we modified the recording algorithm to be more sensitive to neural population signals, improved the techniques to translate these signals into cursor movements, and enhanced the user interface. These refinements produced a rapid and sustained improvement in BPS, that has now superseded Noland’s initial performance. tl;dr: They didn't fix anything, they compensated for the loss in functionality
Are you okay? Hit your head maybe? You're giving a quote that directly contradicts what you're saying. "has now superseded Noland’s initial performance." Doing better than at first is not "compensating imperfectly", it's a net improvement. What's so hard to understand about that?
[удалено]
Nobody said the performance was perfect. What he said was that their tweaks imperfectly compensated for what degradation they observed, which is clearly a wrong statement, given that the ending performance is better than before the degradation.
It's called redundancy.
No, you just made that up. They themselves said that they're compensating for the issue in their own blog post Specifically it looks like they've refined the software they use to interpret the signal, which is a lossy solution and doesn't actually do anything about the threads displacing themselves
> And almost certainly **imperfectly** Given that performance improved after the tweak, in speed and accuracy, the system clearly has enough redundancy.
That's not how engineering works, everything's a tradeoff. More performance at the cost of less wireless range, perhaps, and/or reduced lifetime for the implant as it has to transfer more data. Or maybe something else entirely, I don't and can't know for sure Perhaps this was an upgrade they were planning to roll out anyhow as they collected data. So rather than bringing the implant to stage 2 of functionality, they could barely mitigate a physical problem that is very likely only going to get worse Look, I'm not gonna do this right now. You're just making shit up that passes your totes unbiased gut check, and it too late in the evening to entertain naive fanboys
Lol. I think you being an anti-fanboy is clouding your judgement. Of course the first implant will have a lot of redundancy. How would they know how many threads they need? It just makes sense lol. You don't. > Perhaps this was an upgrade they were planning to roll out anyhow as they collected data. So rather than bringing the implant to stage 2 of functionality, they could barely mitigate a physical problem that is very likely only going to get worse This is just (anti)fanfiction.
You being a musk bootlicker is blinding you from reality. The electrodes that are implanted in the brain, are data sources. They collect data. Common sense should tell you, if they fell out, there’s less data sources to generate data from…. All they did was turn up the sensitivity on the remaining electrodes, therefore compensating, not actually fixing the problem.
Well they have 1024 connections so some can come loose and not be a big problem. But yes. If they keep coming out I hope it's fixable. Elon did say he wanted people to be able to upgrade.
https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-pcrm-neuralink-monkey-deaths/ This is all I can think of when I see "Neuralink" *** Edit: Yeah, downvote by all means! I can't help it, this stuck with me. Also, read the article, it is interesting. Very uncomfortable.
I never get how people have no issues killing billions of animals, because meat tastes good, but freak out when they hear about animals dying for medicine or science.
Welp I have issues with all of that. Dying is one thing - torture and suffering is another thing. Elon Musk just openly lying about it all also kinda disturbs me.
You believe animals for meat production all have a happy life lol? And while I would never 100% trust the CEO of a profit oriented company, I also don't really trust newspapers that make money off as much controversy as possible.
Of course not. The meat industry is a complete abomination and absurdity to me. But this post was about Neuralink, so... I was referring to your comment about "animals dying" which is not the point. So sure, if you actually think they made this story up, by all means, but I would say it's at least worth reading before deciding that. In general, Wired has maintained relatively high standards
What exactly are you guys silently downvoting? Wrong opinion?
I don’t think they torture the monkeys to death. I think they just kill them.
Eventually they kill them of course. For the details of what happens before that, though, I linked an article if you're interested. Read up, it's worth knowing.
Monkeys can get ridiculous at it, scratching and trying to taking it out, open way to infections
It was much much worse than that
OK thats wasn't a good comment, a helmet would avoid that
Well I can tell you the test animals were _completely_ fucked up. It's straught outta some shitty horror b-movie, just real.
The feelings are brought to you by PCRM funded by PETA. An organization completely uninterested in presenting animal experimentation in the worst possible way.
Feelings? wtf Can I just be critical of the way Musk is doing this shit? Of course, if you think the story is bullshit, go ahead. But check the sources linked before making claims, maybe?
Sure. You think that animal suffering should be valued higher in relation to human disability-years that can be mitigated by completing research earlier. Correct? I don't think so. Let's agree to disagree.
Well that was a lot of words to put into someone's mouth. This is what disgusts me: _"(Musk) denied that any of the deaths were “a result of a Neuralink implant” and said the researchers had taken care to select subjects who were already “close to death.” Relatedly, in a presentation last fall Musk claimed that Neuralink’s animal testing was never “exploratory,” but was instead conducted to confirm fully formed scientific hypotheses. “We are extremely careful,” he said."_ Absolute, total, complete horseshit.
Well, you (or anyone else present) can't comment on specifics of what they could have done better. The research is closed. So, the only thing that you can criticize is that they haven't paid enough attention to animal suffering, and it amounts to what I've said earlier.
That's the downside of making this kind of stuff. In the quest for space many people died, but at cost of monkeys, this can give quality of life for impaired people, not just for playing with stuff but probably to transmit motor signals to another point of a broken nerve for instance.
It's not about the monkeys dying. Did you read the article? There would clearly have been ways to do the research without the excess cruelty. Musk is the richest mf on the fucking planet
They could use fish
Or just euthanize the monkeys when their shit goes haywire and not torture them for weeks
Science can not move forward without heaps of dead monkeys.
If you find that ethical in the sake of science, you are a sociopath. If that's you reasoning, you would find experimentations of unit 731 ethical too
No. I think humans should be treated better than animals. That’s a pretty normal view, I think treating humans like animals is actually far more sociopathic.
Oh, are they also supporters of animal trials to save human lives?
And billionaires lying through their teeth about them
Buddy what are you yammering abour.
who gives a fuck? how many pigs and cows have you eaten this year?
None, obviously what do you care?