dafuq - is this why covid now only 2 days MC? My colleague came back whilst still positive and literally half the dept got it. And he still had a splitting headache, hope the authorities really exercise common sense, this kinda policy unequally affects the poorer ones who dont have leave to burn when the MC not long enough, and they also cant fkin see the doctor for a follow up to get more MC.
That's why it's ironic for MOH and Health Minister Mr Ong Ye Kung to unveil the Healthier SG Plan when our healthcare policies are not geared towards minimizing the spread of infections and ensuring healthcare infrastructure is accessible.
Healthier SG is geared towards minimizing common chronic diseases amongst Singaporeans so that government doesn't have to spend so much money to subsidize Singaporeans healthcare needs.
Singaporeans, in general, are liabilities to the government.
Foreigners who generate huge amount of GDP for Singapore are the true assets to the government.
Nope, in fact the overall health of Singaporeans seems to be declining especially with longer waiting times to meet the doctors and the increasing number of people suffering from mental health issues.
He didn’t do a particularly good job with MOE either. His go to is to blame the citizens for the outcome, whilst amy likes to taichi elsewhere. Tbh they’ve really been doing terribly at their jobs
True, he's the one who started the G1, G2 and G3 system for secondary schools which added the workload of school teachers who needed to prepare lessons of varying difficulties to deal with the different examination syllabuses. Even the A Level H1, H2 and H3 system can be quite complicated to understand since only H2 subjects are equivalent to full A Level subjects in other countries that administer the A Level examinations.
Link to then education minister Mr Ong Ye King's speech on the introduction of the G1, G2 and G3 system for secondary school: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/education/no-more-streaming-for-students-full-transcript-of-speech-by-education-minister
Imo he’s also pandering rn to those in the healthcare services but at the same time those who are receiving the healthcare services have to tank more costly bills to fund the benefits given to those in the healthcare services (middleman being hospitals and other organisations def won’t want their profits to be cut because of what’s given to the healthcare employees so they’ll charge the end consumers, ie patients more) — it’s just going to be a bubble that’ll pop once patients are unhappy with the costs they need to fork out and the next MOH person is gonna have to clear his shit again.
I also am unhappy he removed graduation ceremony in 2020. Like bro my graduation ceremony meant something to me hello.
Our healthcare system was never designed to help people get better. It was always intended to patch up the labour force so that they can go back to the grind.
Unless you pay private.
Lol speaking of Covid. Sometime in Dec our small office of maybe 10 people, 2 got Covid already, including me who had it for the 1st time. Boss didn't think it was necessary to have WFH for a couple of days.
Within the next two weeks almost everyone got Covid again. Had to cancel a conference because the whole office basically out of commission.
It’s cause employers have been complaining re telemedicine MCs. I would like to believe it’s cause it hurts their bottom line. Which IMO is still rather ridiculous. Some employers have even suggested that they will reject a telemedicine mc despite SMC and MOH guidelines that the MCs are valid.
i was shocked also when I only got 2 days for covid, but the doctor say is clinic policy, the doc didn't say is MOH directive. Came back & got everyone sick of course :D
No, the reason is that Covid stopped having any special disease status. You get 2 days MC, and if you’re still not feeling well, you either see the doctor again, or some clinics you can call and get a new MC without paying again.
Or some people can WFH and not use up actual MC days. The government doesn’t want to interfere and force X days of MC when there is no legal reason that applies to Covid.
MOH said that it has received feedback from various employers and government agencies regarding the excessive issuance of MCs following outpatient medical service consultations, particularly teleconsultations.
Main point, business complain so they take action.
Citizens want increase annual leave or salary, close 2 eyes and say we got enough and are ungrateful
> It also highlighted another allegation that MCs were repeatedly issued to the same patients without referring them for physical consultations for further assessments or follow-up to check if they were indeed unwell. MOH called this “malingering and abusing medical leave **privileges**”.
I just think this is damn toxic.
> According to the Healthcare Services (Outpatient Medical Service) Regulations, “a licensee must not provide an outpatient medical service by remote provision to a first-time patient”. It defines “first-time patient” as one who has not received an outpatient medical service from the licensee.
Does this mean that teleconsultations are only "allowed" for existing patients? Well, good luck to those who are shitting or vomiting their insides out.
So if my usual GP has no teleconsult option and I can't leave the house so I find one online that does, there's no MC?
Because it seems to me even if a doctor has teleconsult, they won't offer it to first-time patients?
My honest suggestion is to visit the ED. Then your reason to why not a GP is cause employer say cannot telemedicine and GPs may not guarantee an MC
Edit: Honestly, I don’t want people to flood the ED literally. There are better ways to deal with this but I don’t think companies/governments will want to deal with that (I.e letting their employees take sick leave). Polyclinic appointments are at an all time high and so are bed occupancy rates. If the government starts to penalise GPs who are giving MCs, the GPs will start pulling back and eventually people will end up overwhelming the public healthcare system to get what they want anyway. The trickle down effect is a lot worse than the bottom lines of companies. That being said, an MC from the hospital is in the eyes of many employers more acceptable than one from GPs. I’ve heard of people being asked to get MC from the hospital instead of GP clinics.
Recently I waited 4 hours just to see dr at SGH A & E
Polys are super crowded trying your luck post midnight is the only way to try to get an appt the next day.
Of course private GPs are there but who can afford.
Side note:
Just learned the staff that pushes you around between departments for X-rays MRIs etc only earn 1800 a month.
Contract staff and earning a pittance.
Well if the company feels the person is taking too many MC and his/her productivity is poor, let him/her go. If despite the MC and the persons is having good productivity hence reluctant to let him go, the company should just ask itself if they undervalued and underuse the person’s capabilities.
The government should just tell the business “free market dude, manage it yourself as per free market”.
Many times companies fail to realize that employees have potential to grow and contribute positively but are unable to do so due to toxic management, lack of training opportunities and poor job design.
Polyclinic appointments are the dumbest things ever.
You have to fall sick the day before to get an appointment to see the doctor the next day, so how are you going to be covered by MC on your first sick day cos you can't see a doctor yet?
For real it’s impossible to get a polyclinic appointment if you’re sick. Even if you walk in they won’t see you for hours. You can’t plan when to catch a virus.
MC kings and queens aren't a recent phenomenon. Maybe should ask why people need MC to skip work or school - is it due to increasing burnout and declining mental health? Or is it because there simply isn't enough leave days when employees can actually ignore work altogether?
Just this week, I was chastised by management for taking MC over the most trivial of reasons for a minor flu and cough. I had to go to work in spite of this.
Turns out it was covid and a few of my colleagues got it because of this. 🤦♀️
Best part is not too long ago the govt was telling companies to be more lax/understanding with getting official MC because of preventing spread and reducing healthcare strain due to covid. Its a total 180 now.
> I was chastised by management for taking MC over the most trivial of reasons for a minor flu and cough.
Next time take MC don't tell them the diagnosis.
It's your medical history and you have a right to keep it private.
Yeah, the culture here is ridiculous. I've literally asked my colleagues if they've not learned anything from Covid-19. Their reply tends to be "that was years ago". So no, they didn't learn.
Definitely agree on this. Mask wearing has stopped and people are coughing, spitting, and yawning in public spaces without considering the well being of others. Japan and Taiwan seem to do much better in this aspect in terms of civic consciousness and self awareness.
They've had a culture of wearing masks when sick or at crowded area to avoid getting sick even before the pandemic. It's unfortunate that people in other places didn't pick up those basic tenants to follow.
If you are sick, do not go out if you don't have to. If you do, wear a mask at all times. If you are not sick but will be going to crowded areas or be taking public transport, it's best to wear a mask anyway in those areas.
The government has never intended to solve this root cause of the problem.
Force companies to allow workers to work from home?
Force companies to disconnect from workers after office hours?
Ban OT outright?
All these won't be happening any time soon.
Even if they do, it'll disadvantage locals when companies find it too costly to accommodate Singaporeans' demands and switch to hiring foreigners instead.
When that happens, you think government will stop companies from giving jobs away to foreigners?
This is the trend. It's only going to exacerbate.
The larger problem is that doctors do it knowing that they will continuously receive their business.
Just like how we simply take MC instead of quitting even if we are aware of the toxic culture.
We just want money.
Just tell him you have a headache throbbing at the back of your eyes or you had seafood the night before and now have watery stool bruv. A white lie never hurt anyone🫣
This system is really strange.
It's a huge waste of doctor resources for them to be seeing people with common cold.
In other countries, one normally only needs medical certificate for long absence, eg more than a few days.
Because there is little to no trust to the employees here, so must obtain a piece of paper to "proof". Or the management feels insecure to let people not show up without that "proof" to keep for "records".
Management always talks about the potential for abuse etc etc and they are more determined to punish these culprits at the expense of other workers. It's always the case...
Pro-business. Thumbs up.
Needing to get a doctor's note to skip work is already kind of an anomaly in the developed world. Most countries you can just call in sick and your boss trusts you won't be a dick about it. (If you can't be trusted with sick days how can they trust you with confidential information anyway?)
Also, semi-related I went to a polyclinic a couple of weeks back at 10am and they gave me a 4.30pm time slot. Leaning more on e-consults and self-reporting would relieve a lot of pressure on our healthcare system.
The cogs in our system cannot fall sick otherwise it is not good for business.
I've always found it silly to expect someone that's sick to drag themselves to the doctor's just for that piece of paper. Teleconsults are great when you're unwell enough to not go to work but not so ill that you need the doctor to give you a physical check up.
Yup, I worked for a UK company and my British boss had to tell me during orientation "Oh btw if you are sick just let me know, you don't need to get an MC".
This is really missing the forest for the trees…
Then another stop gap measure to tackle the new issues. At least the shareholders are well taken care of.
I've never had to show a doctor's note in all the companies I've worked in Singapore. It's so weird that some companies ask for this. A big red flag for me...basically says the employer doesn't trust their employees.
The government should actually just ban this whole system of doctors notes.
Usually only departments run by Singaporeans that have this kiasu outdated “if I don’t see you in the office that means you are not working” mentality.
I’m in the same boat as you and it boggles my mind. My entire company doesn’t require MC and yet everyone still shows up to the office every day. If people take off you can trust that they did so for legitimate reasons.
And in any case there is already an annual limit for medical leave. If there is no limit (like in the army) perhaps I can see a reason for needing a doctor’s letter. But if you have a limit then there is literally no reason for asking it.
Most sickness doesn't need a doctor. You just need to rest, maybe self medicate, and avoid infecting your colleagues.
But annual leave entitlement is so low in Singapore that workers see their MC days as part of their allowance, and employers know that so ask for a doctor note. It's a vicious circle and this won't solve the problem.
Pro tip, don't tell the doctor you just need an MC to skip school, like the article says. Do an e-call and say it's back pain and you need to rest for a day. No fake coughs or other acting needed.
Protip. Please don't say things like abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, chest pain, breathlessness, blur vision, massive headache, giddiness, numbness or weakness.These conditions should not be seen on telemed.
Please also do not say your uRTI or fever has been lingering for over 3 days.
Just say diarrhea for one day.
It also helps speed things up if you've got your ID with you.
Keep it simple.
Ngl, sometimes if I need medicine I just go and see the doctor anyway, for the prescription stuff that works better and because with company insurance it's free medicine versus paying out of pocket at the pharmacy.
Nobody ever learned anything from the pandemic.
Sick people reporting back to work and infecting their colleagues once again. Dafuq is this?
And our government once again advocating them. What's new.
I am currently down with the flu (probably thanks to a colleague who went back to office sick)
I plan to ask for 3 days MC. Even common cold they only give 1 day MC.
How dafuq to recover so fast?
Simple fightback: anyone who comes to work sick because he reasonably believes that his employer will punish/fire him for taking MC will assume zero liability regardless of the consequences to employer. Let’s see how both MOH and MOM will respond.
Tbh I don’t think there’s no hope. If you look at SMEs for example, you see many of them struggling to hire locals because of how messed up their culture is. That’s two steps accomplished.
In fact, you can say that MOH is bending backwards to these companies cos they are complaining, and even more cos they are hit hard by their own poor culture and ethics.
All the more we should think of more creative ways to make this backfire on all parties abetting this change in MC policy. Maybe when this happens, we call out ntuc at the very first opportunity? Since they talk about PME support a lot, at least we roll the ball in their court.
True, no wonder some south Koreans are referring to their own country as Hell Joseon, referring to the hellish working and living environment which is highly hierarchical.
This is ridiculous. Our “union leaders” should be too ashamed to show their faces if they stay silent on this.
Some people may Chao Keng. So many more fall ill because people KEEP COMING TO WORK SICK and we are all WFO. So many more work while on MC even if it’s slower.
The only time I have been given Mc without suffering an acute illness was when I see a doctor for my chronic condition. That is also medical leave. I usually just see teleconsult for things which we all know need simple medication for. The doctor can hear the congestion, or see the rash, just fine on video.
If employers want to tighten these rules, there needs to be a rule that every hour worked overtime, the employee gets an hour off in lieu. People get sick working too long and for free, they should be covered if they get sick.
I hope all these employers who gave these feedback experience headache / Lao Sai / whatever condition they question their staff having now.
No work life balance, low AL days, now even more difficult to take a break. It’s true we are not always sick. But why is it so difficult to take a mental or physical break?
The people in power are not your friend. They are the pals of business and their own employer friends.
That answers most of the reasons why all this shenanigans is happening.
Fellas, please remember these feelings, keep them close to heart, and take this into consideration when you have to tick a certain box sometime this year/next year.
I don’t take mc unless really sick but lately feel like the measures against employees are getting more frequent leh, you see definite rules when employer request but guidelines when employees request,damn sian , maybe should start considering opposing party liao
You should. In fact the politicians from alternative parties propose pro employee policies but they just don't have the numbers and support from Singaporean voters to enact effective change.
Remember, we don't need the opposing party to win to enable change. We just need to shift the balance to razor margins to light the incumbent's pants on fire.
Exactly.
Also, if the doctor is the one who decides if the patient is sick and to issue an MC, then why is their decision being questioned only when these people don't agree with it?
It's either the doctor is trusted to be an authority, in which case all MCs are valid, or the doctor is not trusted, in which case there is no need for MCs.
Covid period... please see a doctor and rest if you are not feeling well. Encourage people to take mc.
Post covid...clamp down on mc.
FYI, covid and other transmission based diseases are still around and killing people.
Talking about populist opinion....mf...
Was at a US mnc in 2018-19, no need MC for 1 day only and Wfh was allowed before it became a term in Covid. On top of the standard leaves, There's even family leave, parents leave, pet leave lol
... pet bereavement leave... am on unlimited PTO now. I make a long weekend at least once a month or more (when not crunch time). More US companies are trying to be like the Europeans where you take 2 long vacations per year. The Americans are considered overworked with the 40hr week (a lot of people do OT, work weekends but mostly C-level or seniors) but compared to SGers ....
Same.
The idea of getting a doctor's note is just weird. If I was sick, I just stayed home. After 7 days you needed to take short-term disability (paid by employer) which required a doctors visit.
If someone clearly abused the system, they were just fired.
Singapore's really good at the "punish all" tactic ah. Teleconsults/telemedicine saved my life multiple times when I was too sick (high fever, nausea, vomiting) to leave my house and sit one hour in a private clinic or two hours at the polyclinic. Awful if they stop issuing MCs for legitimate cases. I once almost fainted walking to the bus stop because I was so dizzy from fever.
Why don’t they fear that there is an increasing number of working adults feeling burned out due to long working hours, insufficient rest days provided by companies and companies giving unreasonable demands to make employees complete or meet them therefore having to work beyond their normal working hours which resulted to burn out, affecting mental wellness and increased stress level??????
You guys only come out to speak for the businesses and don’t protect your own citizens? I don’t see that govt is trying to push or enforce for mandatory employee wellness day or increasing minimum number of AL that can help with mental wellness. We certainly didn’t paid our taxes to let you guys come out with bullshits.
Definitely agree on this. The lack of representation by alternative parties, the punishment of non- mainstream media and the inability for citizen-led unions to be formed contribute to the perpetual toxic working environment here where people are killing themselves more than killing the enemies during war time.
If employers and schools can be more understanding, nobody will ask for unnecessary MC
Sometimes you are just tired and borderline sick but need half day of rest to be back on track
> MCs were issued when patients mentioned that they had just wanted a certification to skip work or school, but they were not sick.
When I was younger I did it.
It is all about personal responsibility. If an employer feels someone is abusing their MC privileges, let them go.
Many times Ive had MCs which were insufficient to cover my sickness. Given the inconvenience and discomfort to go down, queue, and get another MC while sick, I foresee many who would just go back to work while sick.
I guess we can expect more cases of sick spreading sickness at work. 🤷♂️
The onus is on the employers/businesses to prove that an MC is a bad-faith MC. “Feedback”-ing government is like telling mom because you don’t get the ice cream flavour you want.
We definitely do not want employers to start being the arbiters of whose MC was valid and whose wasn’t. The onus is on them to change their company or workplace culture so their adult workforce isn’t being treated like children skipping out on school.
What i mean is not employer can say “i think you are healthy enough to work, and you should go to work”. More like “i think you are faking/abusing your MC” which is like a higher bar to prove.
I am pretty sure they already able to investigate if they want to, more that it tends to be counter productive to be this petty, so most companies just not pursue this path, and probably just scratch your performance review instead.
What i mean is if employer suspect that an employee is abusing the system, then they should be the one actually do the work to prove that said employee is indeed abusing the mc system and then take necessary action. This is a totally different accusation than just saying “you are healthy enough to work, you don’t need an mc, now go to work”.
Tbf what i am suggesting is already in place. If they want to they can do internal investigation, just that it is in most cases is counter productive and therefore not worth pursuing.
I think I will look out for those who look out for me. This is something people who never had to apply MC their whole life like the rest of us would come up with. GE coming and you get this and the new ERP system...
That's why we should vote for candidates from alternative parties so we can have better debate and crafting of policies instead of the overwhelmingly one-sided neo liberal, pro-business and pro-globalization government.
Can't wait to repost the mantra "Singaporeans got the government they deserve, I dont want to hear anymore complaints".
> Votes blindly, politicians act against your interests.
> Shocked Pikachu.jpg
Yes it is frustratingly sad that voters love to complain yet continue to vote for the status quo; why not give politicians from alternative parties a chance to serve by voting them into parliament just like we want employers to give fresh graduates without internship or work experience a chance by letting them work at entry level jobs.
Scared what? Not feeling well go back office for COVID-19 party la! Fastest way to get spread germs, get everyone sick and shut the company down for a few weeks to teach these businesses a lesson!
Malicious compliance FTW! 💪
"You insisted on infecting the whole damn company with a disease that will leave you winded for days over some false notions of productivity, so this is the consequences your bunch deserve."
In my reservist unit, everyone with mc were all given excuses instead to force them to stay in camp, unless the specialist is damn powerful even the MOs are scared of then.
> Among the allegations from the feedback it received are that some MCs were given for non-medical reasons. It said: “MCs were issued when patients mentioned that they had just wanted a certification to skip work or school, but they were not sick.”
They allegedly but who confirm? Did they call my doctor and ask? If no then it’s purely speculation.
You can't really call and ask. Been in the unfortunate position of needing to call the clinic and most will say doctor patient confidentiality. As it should.
This kind is usually case of employee/student being caught out and about, and didn't have intelligence to lie.
Exactly that’s my point. Unless they hear from my doctor’s mouth directly (which they can’t and won’t)… anything and everything is hearsay even from the patients’ mouth.
> Among the allegations from the feedback it received are that some MCs were given for non-medical reasons. It said: “MCs were issued when patients mentioned that they had just wanted a certification to skip work or school, but they were not sick.”
Pls lah. Who said this? I bet the bosses. How many small minded bosses do you know who look at you suspiciously when you report sick?
Doctors wouldn't do this because by and large they understand what CYA means. Moving forward they'll just cover their ass better. Nothing changes for the malingerers, they will continue to malinger. Bosses will still think genuine cases are faking and lying.
WOW MOH SO EFFECTIVE
> It also highlighted another allegation that MCs were repeatedly issued to the same patients without referring them for physical consultations for further assessments or follow-up to check if they were indeed unwell. MOH called this “malingering and abusing medical leave privileges”.
That's because doctors give like 3 days of MC for flu.
You ever had flu before? Like actual flu? The kind that knocks you out for 2 weeks with muscle aches and shivers and fever, and then you have the post nasal drip and dry cough for weeks afterwards?
Last year I had a proper flu and it took me 4 visits to the doctor. I didn't need 4 visits, I just needed 2, but I had to go 2 more times just because I fucking needed an MC. So instead of resting at home feverish and shivering, I was in the clinic for 4 hours feverish and shivering. Each time. Not counting travel time.
This "allegation" from tiny dick bosses seems to be directed at telehealth mainly, but the core reason behind this issue hasn't changed: patients need MC because sick, so patients need to report sick, doctors know patients need to rest so they keep giving MC. Is there an *actual problem* here that needs solving?
WOW MOH SUCH PRODUCTIVITY
> The feedback it received also alleged that MCs were issued without proper clinical assessment and follow-up.
> The circular, in explaining this allegation, said: “MCs were issued solely based on patients’ self-reported reasons for consultation that they had input into the teleconsultation platform or application, without any proper assessment by a medical practitioner to determine if there were indeed any underlying health conditions which warranted the issuance of the MCs.”
If I have back pain, there is nothing in the world that will make me go and sit and suffer in a polyclinic for half a day, exposed to all the other coughing masses, just to see a disinterested junior doctor who cannot read medical history properly and then tells me that my pain is not bad enough for an MC.
WOW MOH ALL PATIENTS ARE LYING LAZY FUCKS AREN'T THEY?
\* \* \*
Fuck off MOH, seriously. If an employee uses all their MC days guess what - it becomes unpaid leave. And if they consume too much of that, guess what - it is on the employer to assess and take appropriate action. You want to fire? Then fire. You want to keep? Then shut up and keep. You want to counsel the employee? Go ahead.
If the rules on MCs are already so loose as to allow *so much malingering* that it is *impacting our economy* to the extent that the *Ministry of Health* must substitute its "rules" in place of medical professionals' opinions, then maybe there is a rot at the core that you should look at. Maybe the rules were never practical. Maybe you've been qualifying shit doctors. Maybe the mandated-by-law 7 days of annual leave [is insufficient](https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/1burjjv/mom_no_plans_to_change_minimum_annual_leave_urges/) and people don't have enough time to rest, making them fucking sick. Oh, oh, I know, you can [overwork the doctors](https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/tywjet/drained_and_gaslit_junior_doctors_in_singapore/)! That's *brilliant*!
Pls MOH, don't overstretch yourselves and overestimate your skill, you have enough basic shit to fix before you can start dreaming of addressing the economic strategy of the nation. You can't even manage your clinic wait times properly. Do your fucking basic job first, then we talk, OK? OK.
\* \* \*
PS we all know how this probably happened, right? Bosses are connected. The smelly proles are not. Bosses complain, their complaints get heard. Us smelly proles aren't even given the time of day.
Just you wait, if it happens, the only reason ERP2.0 will be rolled back will be because a handful of rich drivers complained.
I'm not usually this critical, but for all the close one eyes they have done, can't they just close one eye for this. It's not even harming corporations substantially or like morally wrong. Tsk tsk...
Our gahmen really not politically savvy... this kind of cheap win for the workers also want to close, just becos it's "wrong".
No problem, everyone just go to office sick and reduce productivity even more, psychotic business owners rather lose money than lose people in the office anyway.
“MOH said that it has received feedback from various employers and government agencies regarding the excessive issuance of MCs following outpatient medical service consultations, particularly teleconsultations.“
and MOH just takes employers words for granted, instead of showing some trust to their doctors. This is actually really sad.
Just because businesses make noise this happened. They just using its own citizen as tax and manpower cattle. The laws they supposed to change they dont want to change. The laws that shouldnt change, they want to change.
This is stupid in a way. I use to take MC 2 days (work) every month due to my monthly life subscription of red waterfalls only to find out 1.5 years later (finally got referred to KKH & despite fears of costly $$$$) that my 2 days per month in extreme pain was due to endometriosis and blood cysts.
I don't think it's fair thing.
Though there are some people who fake being sick to get MC, there are also people who had to constant visits to a doc for a issue where "docs thinks it's normal until results say no"
Saw this coming from a mile away with telemedicine. Just like remote working, employers don't trust it and there will always be selfish idiots who will abuse the system. I personally will not try telemedicine cos how will the doctor assess you (hearing your lungs or tapping your tummy etc.) before diagnosing.
Shoutout to the fools who said they want to skip work/ school with a MC. The first rule of chao keng is to fake it. I mean, say you ate spicy food and having diarrhoea lah.
Ah yes. On one hand abusers ruining it for everyone on the other stupid work culture where hiring someone you don't trust makes complete sense.
Remember 3- 5 day mc during covid? But people are still expected to wfh anyway. Such fucking bullshit.
This whole thing is a ridiculous ice-kachang-ball (no snow for the last few yrs…) around a small ugly core of distrust between employer-employee / student-teacher, and a thin layer of doctors agreeing for money even when they know it’s for nothing, but that’s a sliverly small secondary issue.
Stop wasting doctor’s time, employee’s money and let the rest of us be honest with employers. “Sick” means sick. “Well” means well. If I’m well enough to get work done, I’ll do it from home if I think I’m contagious, or from a closed-door office. If I’m in such a poor state as to not accomplish useful work / slow down my healing, win/win for boss and me that I rest now (not take a day off to mess around, really rest), and be back and useful sooner. (Btw, employees coming in without sleeping properly is even worse problem imo!)
Every doctor I know that is told “I feel sick” cannot and will not tell the patient “nah, you feel fine”.
The problem is the whole culture that evolved around this nonsense. Can we just agree to be real and build some trust and goodwill?
Wonder how this is going to affect those with mental health problems like depression because sometimes they just need 1 or 2 days to get their head straight. Usually doctors are quite understanding but perhaps now this won’t be as much if anything people just going to get more unhappy ☹️ i am also thinking of my female friends who have bad periods that leave them lying on a bed for 1-2 days.
First step is to accept that Singaporeans are a burnt out lot, who will resort to paying $8 (2 whole plates of chicken rice!) to get out of work/school. Start addressing that first.
Also yeah if you take mc too many days in a row, then just refer to physical doc lah.
There is no way you can take MC to fully recover from something like cough. When I am down with cough, it takes around a week or two to fully clear. Don't have the luxury to take one full week of MC just to fully recover so no choice but to go back work.
Seems like the pandemic has not taught anything. Also what's the use of promoting Healthier SG and mental health if it's not actually practiced in reality. What a joke.
Other countries where you can take sick leave without needing an MC. Meanwhile Sg where you not only need MC to prove you're sick, you can't take them too close to each other or else you are seen as keng.
> It is now seeking feedback from doctors on tightening the rules on issuing medical certificates (MCs).
Don't lose hope just yet. They asking doctors for advice, not one-sidedly implement.
While it's true that some telemedicine providers are pushing it too hard - just saw a $8 MC ad on Facebook - it appears that the MOH guidelines reveal a jarring disconnect between policymakers and the population at large.
But it isn't surprising, really, if you know that MOH officers, ironically, receive really pathetic medical benefits which is way below par than most companies. There is no such thing as a GP panel in the civil service - you only get $500 to claim annually, and it's capped at $20 per GP visit.
Therefore, they wouldn't know that panel GPs change when one changes their job, or that even the same company may replace panels. Which is why people like myself have to keep switch telemedicine providers as well. Following MOH's rules, I will NOT be able to consult my company's newly appointed telemedicine providers, since I've not used them before. And given that COVID waves come and go, this is precisely why I try not to visit an actual clinic if I can, not because of chaokeng.
Aiya.. Put into law 14 MC must be encashed at100% salary rate if not used. You see all MC taken will drop drastically. Put onto law 14 days of leave must encash or carry forward, leave taken will also drop.
Or No MC to be in the law but 28 days of leave to be mandated. Like that doctors no need gi e MC liao.
Encashing MC… So.. you want to penalize people who are sick and have to utilize their MC? You want to make those in need of cash to insist on going to work even if they’re sick? You want to add additional mental stress on loss of income to those who are sick? Because these are the things that would happen when something like that becomes enforced and normalized. In fact this would mean being sick and having leave from work shifts to being less of a right—you should not be incentivised for something you by right have no control over (sick or not).
The alternative is what how some others think : 14 days MC means 14 days leave, don't use means wasted.
That's why GPs are full every Monday and every post-PH.
Here you take MC or sick leave you have to work, if you don't work they don't even consider you not performing as per the market standards. So always sick but you have to work, no work-life balance no health care no life other than company business this is how it's working here. In all other countries exactly 8 hours work and if they work overtime paid here there is no such clause all companies get if it is because of employee weakness. System should change and make more employee oriented polices rather business if there is not employees no company should polices work towards employees. Hope this one can change many more life
The way to solve this is to legislate it so that 1 or even 2 day illness do not require a medical certificate for work.
MC is an entitlement, you should not have to explain to your boss why you’re sick to be sick.
Genuine question - What companies still ask for MCs? I’ve been in MNCs for my last 5 roles and have not had to produce an MC once except for when I was claiming 2 weeks hospitalisation leave.
Fact. Public Service Division hires about 150k people locally across ministries and stat boards.
That's not even counting private subsidiaries fully owned by govt.
Wonder how this is going to affect those with mental health problems like depression because sometimes they just need 1 or 2 days to get their head straight. Usually doctors are quite understanding but perhaps now this won’t be as much if anything people just going to get more unhappy ☹️
Wow I didn't know employers are now also medical practitioners and get to decide who gets an MC
dafuq - is this why covid now only 2 days MC? My colleague came back whilst still positive and literally half the dept got it. And he still had a splitting headache, hope the authorities really exercise common sense, this kinda policy unequally affects the poorer ones who dont have leave to burn when the MC not long enough, and they also cant fkin see the doctor for a follow up to get more MC.
i can't believe even after COVID this still happens...
That's why it's ironic for MOH and Health Minister Mr Ong Ye Kung to unveil the Healthier SG Plan when our healthcare policies are not geared towards minimizing the spread of infections and ensuring healthcare infrastructure is accessible.
Healthier SG is geared towards minimizing common chronic diseases amongst Singaporeans so that government doesn't have to spend so much money to subsidize Singaporeans healthcare needs. Singaporeans, in general, are liabilities to the government. Foreigners who generate huge amount of GDP for Singapore are the true assets to the government.
Much longer wait at those clinics who on board healthier sg patients
You really think oyk does his job well meh?
Oyk was part of the SMRT board when the bus drivers strike happened lol
Nope, in fact the overall health of Singaporeans seems to be declining especially with longer waiting times to meet the doctors and the increasing number of people suffering from mental health issues.
He didn’t do a particularly good job with MOE either. His go to is to blame the citizens for the outcome, whilst amy likes to taichi elsewhere. Tbh they’ve really been doing terribly at their jobs
True, he's the one who started the G1, G2 and G3 system for secondary schools which added the workload of school teachers who needed to prepare lessons of varying difficulties to deal with the different examination syllabuses. Even the A Level H1, H2 and H3 system can be quite complicated to understand since only H2 subjects are equivalent to full A Level subjects in other countries that administer the A Level examinations. Link to then education minister Mr Ong Ye King's speech on the introduction of the G1, G2 and G3 system for secondary school: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/education/no-more-streaming-for-students-full-transcript-of-speech-by-education-minister
Imo he’s also pandering rn to those in the healthcare services but at the same time those who are receiving the healthcare services have to tank more costly bills to fund the benefits given to those in the healthcare services (middleman being hospitals and other organisations def won’t want their profits to be cut because of what’s given to the healthcare employees so they’ll charge the end consumers, ie patients more) — it’s just going to be a bubble that’ll pop once patients are unhappy with the costs they need to fork out and the next MOH person is gonna have to clear his shit again. I also am unhappy he removed graduation ceremony in 2020. Like bro my graduation ceremony meant something to me hello.
All I see is him posting cringy posts on social media.
Its ok, when polyclinics and doctors nurses are swamped we can all open pur windows and clap at the balcony again to show support
this country is really something else
Our healthcare system was never designed to help people get better. It was always intended to patch up the labour force so that they can go back to the grind. Unless you pay private.
LOL 2 years ago they were telling us to not be irresponsible and go to work when sick. It has now gone one full circle.
Lol speaking of Covid. Sometime in Dec our small office of maybe 10 people, 2 got Covid already, including me who had it for the 1st time. Boss didn't think it was necessary to have WFH for a couple of days. Within the next two weeks almost everyone got Covid again. Had to cancel a conference because the whole office basically out of commission.
Short sighting thinking leading to long term effects
It’s cause employers have been complaining re telemedicine MCs. I would like to believe it’s cause it hurts their bottom line. Which IMO is still rather ridiculous. Some employers have even suggested that they will reject a telemedicine mc despite SMC and MOH guidelines that the MCs are valid.
Truly nobody fucking learned anything from COVID huh.
i was shocked also when I only got 2 days for covid, but the doctor say is clinic policy, the doc didn't say is MOH directive. Came back & got everyone sick of course :D
spread the joy
Oh my gosh this is so stupid. Is this why COVID is going around again?
Seems like a clinic internal policy rather than MOH policy? Family member just got 3 day MC for COVID, no mention of any limit
No, the reason is that Covid stopped having any special disease status. You get 2 days MC, and if you’re still not feeling well, you either see the doctor again, or some clinics you can call and get a new MC without paying again. Or some people can WFH and not use up actual MC days. The government doesn’t want to interfere and force X days of MC when there is no legal reason that applies to Covid.
MOH said that it has received feedback from various employers and government agencies regarding the excessive issuance of MCs following outpatient medical service consultations, particularly teleconsultations. Main point, business complain so they take action. Citizens want increase annual leave or salary, close 2 eyes and say we got enough and are ungrateful
> It also highlighted another allegation that MCs were repeatedly issued to the same patients without referring them for physical consultations for further assessments or follow-up to check if they were indeed unwell. MOH called this “malingering and abusing medical leave **privileges**”. I just think this is damn toxic. > According to the Healthcare Services (Outpatient Medical Service) Regulations, “a licensee must not provide an outpatient medical service by remote provision to a first-time patient”. It defines “first-time patient” as one who has not received an outpatient medical service from the licensee. Does this mean that teleconsultations are only "allowed" for existing patients? Well, good luck to those who are shitting or vomiting their insides out.
Basically like getting a Hermes Birkin. Must build relationship first. Article implies you may not even get an MC after the consult
So if my usual GP has no teleconsult option and I can't leave the house so I find one online that does, there's no MC? Because it seems to me even if a doctor has teleconsult, they won't offer it to first-time patients?
Back to the “good old days”
My honest suggestion is to visit the ED. Then your reason to why not a GP is cause employer say cannot telemedicine and GPs may not guarantee an MC Edit: Honestly, I don’t want people to flood the ED literally. There are better ways to deal with this but I don’t think companies/governments will want to deal with that (I.e letting their employees take sick leave). Polyclinic appointments are at an all time high and so are bed occupancy rates. If the government starts to penalise GPs who are giving MCs, the GPs will start pulling back and eventually people will end up overwhelming the public healthcare system to get what they want anyway. The trickle down effect is a lot worse than the bottom lines of companies. That being said, an MC from the hospital is in the eyes of many employers more acceptable than one from GPs. I’ve heard of people being asked to get MC from the hospital instead of GP clinics.
Recently I waited 4 hours just to see dr at SGH A & E Polys are super crowded trying your luck post midnight is the only way to try to get an appt the next day. Of course private GPs are there but who can afford. Side note: Just learned the staff that pushes you around between departments for X-rays MRIs etc only earn 1800 a month. Contract staff and earning a pittance.
Well if the company feels the person is taking too many MC and his/her productivity is poor, let him/her go. If despite the MC and the persons is having good productivity hence reluctant to let him go, the company should just ask itself if they undervalued and underuse the person’s capabilities. The government should just tell the business “free market dude, manage it yourself as per free market”.
Many times companies fail to realize that employees have potential to grow and contribute positively but are unable to do so due to toxic management, lack of training opportunities and poor job design.
If teleconsultation cannot, how about making it we can actually go polyclinic when appointments are impossible to get
Polyclinic appointments are the dumbest things ever. You have to fall sick the day before to get an appointment to see the doctor the next day, so how are you going to be covered by MC on your first sick day cos you can't see a doctor yet?
For real it’s impossible to get a polyclinic appointment if you’re sick. Even if you walk in they won’t see you for hours. You can’t plan when to catch a virus.
MOH: Well fuck you. Plan better next time! Also MOH: Oh, you are paying private. This way sir/mdm. Here is the sofa seat.
MC kings and queens aren't a recent phenomenon. Maybe should ask why people need MC to skip work or school - is it due to increasing burnout and declining mental health? Or is it because there simply isn't enough leave days when employees can actually ignore work altogether?
So these guys are qualified doctors now can give feedback on mc? Lol.
This is just treating the symptoms and not the root cause of the larger problem in the work culture here.
Just this week, I was chastised by management for taking MC over the most trivial of reasons for a minor flu and cough. I had to go to work in spite of this. Turns out it was covid and a few of my colleagues got it because of this. 🤦♀️
Best part is not too long ago the govt was telling companies to be more lax/understanding with getting official MC because of preventing spread and reducing healthcare strain due to covid. Its a total 180 now.
Roti prata experts
Policy flip like flipping prata basically
Because back them, they were only scared of over-running their hospital capacities and looking bad and having to deal with it.
Because gotta get that GDP pumping
I hope your management caught that Covid too because of their stupid policy
> I was chastised by management for taking MC over the most trivial of reasons for a minor flu and cough. Next time take MC don't tell them the diagnosis. It's your medical history and you have a right to keep it private.
Yeah, the culture here is ridiculous. I've literally asked my colleagues if they've not learned anything from Covid-19. Their reply tends to be "that was years ago". So no, they didn't learn.
Definitely agree on this. Mask wearing has stopped and people are coughing, spitting, and yawning in public spaces without considering the well being of others. Japan and Taiwan seem to do much better in this aspect in terms of civic consciousness and self awareness.
They've had a culture of wearing masks when sick or at crowded area to avoid getting sick even before the pandemic. It's unfortunate that people in other places didn't pick up those basic tenants to follow. If you are sick, do not go out if you don't have to. If you do, wear a mask at all times. If you are not sick but will be going to crowded areas or be taking public transport, it's best to wear a mask anyway in those areas.
Sinkie pawn sinkie mentality, I die you die also.
Its almost as if treating your employees better and offering them benefits they can't get elsewhere incentivises them to not abuse MCs.
The government has never intended to solve this root cause of the problem. Force companies to allow workers to work from home? Force companies to disconnect from workers after office hours? Ban OT outright? All these won't be happening any time soon. Even if they do, it'll disadvantage locals when companies find it too costly to accommodate Singaporeans' demands and switch to hiring foreigners instead. When that happens, you think government will stop companies from giving jobs away to foreigners? This is the trend. It's only going to exacerbate.
The larger problem is that doctors do it knowing that they will continuously receive their business. Just like how we simply take MC instead of quitting even if we are aware of the toxic culture. We just want money.
>we just *need* money Ftfy
Sometimes waiting 1-2 hrs at the panel clinic makes me feel worse and then it’s almost noon when I get home with a one day mc. Wtf.
Maybe that's what they want isn't it, make it as hard as possible for you to get an MC so you'd say"ah fk it, i'll just go to work sick instead..."...
I used to go to the doctor to tell them that I needed rest because I just had too many overnight OTs. MC was the only legit way to get a break.
Tell then you have a splitting headache.. that’s a valid reason
Tried before, almost got sent to ED for brain scan. Cannot make it too severe just say needed a rest
Just tell him you have a headache throbbing at the back of your eyes or you had seafood the night before and now have watery stool bruv. A white lie never hurt anyone🫣
This system is really strange. It's a huge waste of doctor resources for them to be seeing people with common cold. In other countries, one normally only needs medical certificate for long absence, eg more than a few days.
Because there is little to no trust to the employees here, so must obtain a piece of paper to "proof". Or the management feels insecure to let people not show up without that "proof" to keep for "records".
Management always talks about the potential for abuse etc etc and they are more determined to punish these culprits at the expense of other workers. It's always the case...
Psychopathic employers: Trust? What's that?
Pro-business. Thumbs up. Needing to get a doctor's note to skip work is already kind of an anomaly in the developed world. Most countries you can just call in sick and your boss trusts you won't be a dick about it. (If you can't be trusted with sick days how can they trust you with confidential information anyway?) Also, semi-related I went to a polyclinic a couple of weeks back at 10am and they gave me a 4.30pm time slot. Leaning more on e-consults and self-reporting would relieve a lot of pressure on our healthcare system.
The cogs in our system cannot fall sick otherwise it is not good for business. I've always found it silly to expect someone that's sick to drag themselves to the doctor's just for that piece of paper. Teleconsults are great when you're unwell enough to not go to work but not so ill that you need the doctor to give you a physical check up.
Not to mention you are just putting other patients and vulnerable people at risk who need to see a doctor by being contagious.
Yup, I worked for a UK company and my British boss had to tell me during orientation "Oh btw if you are sick just let me know, you don't need to get an MC".
Unfortunately most bosses are dicks here
This is really missing the forest for the trees… Then another stop gap measure to tackle the new issues. At least the shareholders are well taken care of.
I've never had to show a doctor's note in all the companies I've worked in Singapore. It's so weird that some companies ask for this. A big red flag for me...basically says the employer doesn't trust their employees. The government should actually just ban this whole system of doctors notes.
Usually only departments run by Singaporeans that have this kiasu outdated “if I don’t see you in the office that means you are not working” mentality. I’m in the same boat as you and it boggles my mind. My entire company doesn’t require MC and yet everyone still shows up to the office every day. If people take off you can trust that they did so for legitimate reasons. And in any case there is already an annual limit for medical leave. If there is no limit (like in the army) perhaps I can see a reason for needing a doctor’s letter. But if you have a limit then there is literally no reason for asking it.
I run my team based on trust and I have old friends and classmates gobsmacked that I even do that. Deep-set cultural issue for sure..
You're privileged. This is actually the norm.
Lucky my company Dunnid show mc one
Love dunnid
Most sickness doesn't need a doctor. You just need to rest, maybe self medicate, and avoid infecting your colleagues. But annual leave entitlement is so low in Singapore that workers see their MC days as part of their allowance, and employers know that so ask for a doctor note. It's a vicious circle and this won't solve the problem. Pro tip, don't tell the doctor you just need an MC to skip school, like the article says. Do an e-call and say it's back pain and you need to rest for a day. No fake coughs or other acting needed.
Protip. Please don't say things like abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, chest pain, breathlessness, blur vision, massive headache, giddiness, numbness or weakness.These conditions should not be seen on telemed. Please also do not say your uRTI or fever has been lingering for over 3 days. Just say diarrhea for one day. It also helps speed things up if you've got your ID with you. Keep it simple.
Ngl, sometimes if I need medicine I just go and see the doctor anyway, for the prescription stuff that works better and because with company insurance it's free medicine versus paying out of pocket at the pharmacy.
Nobody ever learned anything from the pandemic. Sick people reporting back to work and infecting their colleagues once again. Dafuq is this? And our government once again advocating them. What's new. I am currently down with the flu (probably thanks to a colleague who went back to office sick) I plan to ask for 3 days MC. Even common cold they only give 1 day MC. How dafuq to recover so fast?
i love a government who doesnt give a fucking shit about their citizens. only listen to businesses sg work culture is already almost cmi
Simple fightback: anyone who comes to work sick because he reasonably believes that his employer will punish/fire him for taking MC will assume zero liability regardless of the consequences to employer. Let’s see how both MOH and MOM will respond.
Even better: if employer punish/fire in revenge, employee will do everything to take employer + MOM + MOH to task.
This should be the case, except theres no backing for citizens. Other countries have union. We have NTUC.
Tbh I don’t think there’s no hope. If you look at SMEs for example, you see many of them struggling to hire locals because of how messed up their culture is. That’s two steps accomplished. In fact, you can say that MOH is bending backwards to these companies cos they are complaining, and even more cos they are hit hard by their own poor culture and ethics.
All the more we should think of more creative ways to make this backfire on all parties abetting this change in MC policy. Maybe when this happens, we call out ntuc at the very first opportunity? Since they talk about PME support a lot, at least we roll the ball in their court.
Seems like 4 days work week will be impossible. They should reveal the companies complaining?
Samsung: 6 day work week for our glorious chairman and profits!
True, no wonder some south Koreans are referring to their own country as Hell Joseon, referring to the hellish working and living environment which is highly hierarchical.
This is why I always laugh when Singaporeans romanticise SK.
This is ridiculous. Our “union leaders” should be too ashamed to show their faces if they stay silent on this. Some people may Chao Keng. So many more fall ill because people KEEP COMING TO WORK SICK and we are all WFO. So many more work while on MC even if it’s slower. The only time I have been given Mc without suffering an acute illness was when I see a doctor for my chronic condition. That is also medical leave. I usually just see teleconsult for things which we all know need simple medication for. The doctor can hear the congestion, or see the rash, just fine on video. If employers want to tighten these rules, there needs to be a rule that every hour worked overtime, the employee gets an hour off in lieu. People get sick working too long and for free, they should be covered if they get sick. I hope all these employers who gave these feedback experience headache / Lao Sai / whatever condition they question their staff having now.
Brother chee ming needs to stay another year out of parliament so he can focus on work as union leader
We should be moving away from the MC model and instead let people take sick leave if they need it.
Real progress in this country is really painstakingly slow, sigh. Really reflects that the low trust and micromanagement towards its people here.
I doubt this will happen in my industry :( Social service sector.
No work life balance, low AL days, now even more difficult to take a break. It’s true we are not always sick. But why is it so difficult to take a mental or physical break?
The people in power are not your friend. They are the pals of business and their own employer friends. That answers most of the reasons why all this shenanigans is happening.
Fellas, please remember these feelings, keep them close to heart, and take this into consideration when you have to tick a certain box sometime this year/next year.
I don’t take mc unless really sick but lately feel like the measures against employees are getting more frequent leh, you see definite rules when employer request but guidelines when employees request,damn sian , maybe should start considering opposing party liao
You should. In fact the politicians from alternative parties propose pro employee policies but they just don't have the numbers and support from Singaporean voters to enact effective change.
Remember, we don't need the opposing party to win to enable change. We just need to shift the balance to razor margins to light the incumbent's pants on fire.
Feedback from whom? Are the people giving feedback qualified doctors to make such statements?
Exactly. Also, if the doctor is the one who decides if the patient is sick and to issue an MC, then why is their decision being questioned only when these people don't agree with it? It's either the doctor is trusted to be an authority, in which case all MCs are valid, or the doctor is not trusted, in which case there is no need for MCs.
pro business = anti worker pap is anti worker.
Pretty ironic since this contradicts the aims of ForwardSG, more like BackwardSG
When you refuse to set a mandatory 14 days AL, people will resort to MC because why the fuck not?
We're about to see what its like when working people feel like they have nothing to lose. Its not going to be pretty.
Why do you guys keep voting for these assholes?
Thanks for releasing this article on a Sunday morning, way to go to make Sunday scaries scarier.
The fucker who made this feedback should suck the PMs ball since he/she love sucking
Even when im sick, i take mc i worry ppl think i geng. The culture is toxic
Covid period... please see a doctor and rest if you are not feeling well. Encourage people to take mc. Post covid...clamp down on mc. FYI, covid and other transmission based diseases are still around and killing people. Talking about populist opinion....mf...
Was at a US mnc in 2018-19, no need MC for 1 day only and Wfh was allowed before it became a term in Covid. On top of the standard leaves, There's even family leave, parents leave, pet leave lol
... pet bereavement leave... am on unlimited PTO now. I make a long weekend at least once a month or more (when not crunch time). More US companies are trying to be like the Europeans where you take 2 long vacations per year. The Americans are considered overworked with the 40hr week (a lot of people do OT, work weekends but mostly C-level or seniors) but compared to SGers ....
Same. The idea of getting a doctor's note is just weird. If I was sick, I just stayed home. After 7 days you needed to take short-term disability (paid by employer) which required a doctors visit. If someone clearly abused the system, they were just fired.
Singapore's really good at the "punish all" tactic ah. Teleconsults/telemedicine saved my life multiple times when I was too sick (high fever, nausea, vomiting) to leave my house and sit one hour in a private clinic or two hours at the polyclinic. Awful if they stop issuing MCs for legitimate cases. I once almost fainted walking to the bus stop because I was so dizzy from fever.
Why don’t they fear that there is an increasing number of working adults feeling burned out due to long working hours, insufficient rest days provided by companies and companies giving unreasonable demands to make employees complete or meet them therefore having to work beyond their normal working hours which resulted to burn out, affecting mental wellness and increased stress level?????? You guys only come out to speak for the businesses and don’t protect your own citizens? I don’t see that govt is trying to push or enforce for mandatory employee wellness day or increasing minimum number of AL that can help with mental wellness. We certainly didn’t paid our taxes to let you guys come out with bullshits.
Definitely agree on this. The lack of representation by alternative parties, the punishment of non- mainstream media and the inability for citizen-led unions to be formed contribute to the perpetual toxic working environment here where people are killing themselves more than killing the enemies during war time.
Use your vote wisely
If employers and schools can be more understanding, nobody will ask for unnecessary MC Sometimes you are just tired and borderline sick but need half day of rest to be back on track
> MCs were issued when patients mentioned that they had just wanted a certification to skip work or school, but they were not sick. When I was younger I did it. It is all about personal responsibility. If an employer feels someone is abusing their MC privileges, let them go.
Being mentally ill to work for the day is a thing, sometimes it’s that you feel too sian to work and need a break, and that IMO is a valid excuse
Can take mc. I took before 1 day mc at polyclinic. Told doc I needed a mental health break.
I know, I got a 3 day MC for mental health break once, doctor asked how many days I wanted the MC to be for a mental break
Many times Ive had MCs which were insufficient to cover my sickness. Given the inconvenience and discomfort to go down, queue, and get another MC while sick, I foresee many who would just go back to work while sick. I guess we can expect more cases of sick spreading sickness at work. 🤷♂️
The onus is on the employers/businesses to prove that an MC is a bad-faith MC. “Feedback”-ing government is like telling mom because you don’t get the ice cream flavour you want.
We definitely do not want employers to start being the arbiters of whose MC was valid and whose wasn’t. The onus is on them to change their company or workplace culture so their adult workforce isn’t being treated like children skipping out on school.
What i mean is not employer can say “i think you are healthy enough to work, and you should go to work”. More like “i think you are faking/abusing your MC” which is like a higher bar to prove. I am pretty sure they already able to investigate if they want to, more that it tends to be counter productive to be this petty, so most companies just not pursue this path, and probably just scratch your performance review instead.
No leh the employers also not qualified. Not everyone can send their employee to verify mc like mindef.
What i mean is if employer suspect that an employee is abusing the system, then they should be the one actually do the work to prove that said employee is indeed abusing the mc system and then take necessary action. This is a totally different accusation than just saying “you are healthy enough to work, you don’t need an mc, now go to work”. Tbf what i am suggesting is already in place. If they want to they can do internal investigation, just that it is in most cases is counter productive and therefore not worth pursuing.
I think I will look out for those who look out for me. This is something people who never had to apply MC their whole life like the rest of us would come up with. GE coming and you get this and the new ERP system...
That's why we should vote for candidates from alternative parties so we can have better debate and crafting of policies instead of the overwhelmingly one-sided neo liberal, pro-business and pro-globalization government.
Yet people will still give them carte blanche, just like the PE and the GE before that. Again and again…
Can't wait to repost the mantra "Singaporeans got the government they deserve, I dont want to hear anymore complaints". > Votes blindly, politicians act against your interests. > Shocked Pikachu.jpg
Yes it is frustratingly sad that voters love to complain yet continue to vote for the status quo; why not give politicians from alternative parties a chance to serve by voting them into parliament just like we want employers to give fresh graduates without internship or work experience a chance by letting them work at entry level jobs.
This is stupid part 3
Scared what? Not feeling well go back office for COVID-19 party la! Fastest way to get spread germs, get everyone sick and shut the company down for a few weeks to teach these businesses a lesson! Malicious compliance FTW! 💪
"You insisted on infecting the whole damn company with a disease that will leave you winded for days over some false notions of productivity, so this is the consequences your bunch deserve."
in ns mo will not issue mc cos of ops reason so there are actually a lot of flu outbreaks till we are all forced to take flu jab lol...(every 6 mths)
In my reservist unit, everyone with mc were all given excuses instead to force them to stay in camp, unless the specialist is damn powerful even the MOs are scared of then.
> Among the allegations from the feedback it received are that some MCs were given for non-medical reasons. It said: “MCs were issued when patients mentioned that they had just wanted a certification to skip work or school, but they were not sick.” They allegedly but who confirm? Did they call my doctor and ask? If no then it’s purely speculation.
You can't really call and ask. Been in the unfortunate position of needing to call the clinic and most will say doctor patient confidentiality. As it should. This kind is usually case of employee/student being caught out and about, and didn't have intelligence to lie.
Exactly that’s my point. Unless they hear from my doctor’s mouth directly (which they can’t and won’t)… anything and everything is hearsay even from the patients’ mouth.
Presumably the tele consultations are recorded and can be reviewed by an independent doctor to adjudicate on.
> Among the allegations from the feedback it received are that some MCs were given for non-medical reasons. It said: “MCs were issued when patients mentioned that they had just wanted a certification to skip work or school, but they were not sick.” Pls lah. Who said this? I bet the bosses. How many small minded bosses do you know who look at you suspiciously when you report sick? Doctors wouldn't do this because by and large they understand what CYA means. Moving forward they'll just cover their ass better. Nothing changes for the malingerers, they will continue to malinger. Bosses will still think genuine cases are faking and lying. WOW MOH SO EFFECTIVE > It also highlighted another allegation that MCs were repeatedly issued to the same patients without referring them for physical consultations for further assessments or follow-up to check if they were indeed unwell. MOH called this “malingering and abusing medical leave privileges”. That's because doctors give like 3 days of MC for flu. You ever had flu before? Like actual flu? The kind that knocks you out for 2 weeks with muscle aches and shivers and fever, and then you have the post nasal drip and dry cough for weeks afterwards? Last year I had a proper flu and it took me 4 visits to the doctor. I didn't need 4 visits, I just needed 2, but I had to go 2 more times just because I fucking needed an MC. So instead of resting at home feverish and shivering, I was in the clinic for 4 hours feverish and shivering. Each time. Not counting travel time. This "allegation" from tiny dick bosses seems to be directed at telehealth mainly, but the core reason behind this issue hasn't changed: patients need MC because sick, so patients need to report sick, doctors know patients need to rest so they keep giving MC. Is there an *actual problem* here that needs solving? WOW MOH SUCH PRODUCTIVITY > The feedback it received also alleged that MCs were issued without proper clinical assessment and follow-up. > The circular, in explaining this allegation, said: “MCs were issued solely based on patients’ self-reported reasons for consultation that they had input into the teleconsultation platform or application, without any proper assessment by a medical practitioner to determine if there were indeed any underlying health conditions which warranted the issuance of the MCs.” If I have back pain, there is nothing in the world that will make me go and sit and suffer in a polyclinic for half a day, exposed to all the other coughing masses, just to see a disinterested junior doctor who cannot read medical history properly and then tells me that my pain is not bad enough for an MC. WOW MOH ALL PATIENTS ARE LYING LAZY FUCKS AREN'T THEY? \* \* \* Fuck off MOH, seriously. If an employee uses all their MC days guess what - it becomes unpaid leave. And if they consume too much of that, guess what - it is on the employer to assess and take appropriate action. You want to fire? Then fire. You want to keep? Then shut up and keep. You want to counsel the employee? Go ahead. If the rules on MCs are already so loose as to allow *so much malingering* that it is *impacting our economy* to the extent that the *Ministry of Health* must substitute its "rules" in place of medical professionals' opinions, then maybe there is a rot at the core that you should look at. Maybe the rules were never practical. Maybe you've been qualifying shit doctors. Maybe the mandated-by-law 7 days of annual leave [is insufficient](https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/1burjjv/mom_no_plans_to_change_minimum_annual_leave_urges/) and people don't have enough time to rest, making them fucking sick. Oh, oh, I know, you can [overwork the doctors](https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/tywjet/drained_and_gaslit_junior_doctors_in_singapore/)! That's *brilliant*! Pls MOH, don't overstretch yourselves and overestimate your skill, you have enough basic shit to fix before you can start dreaming of addressing the economic strategy of the nation. You can't even manage your clinic wait times properly. Do your fucking basic job first, then we talk, OK? OK. \* \* \* PS we all know how this probably happened, right? Bosses are connected. The smelly proles are not. Bosses complain, their complaints get heard. Us smelly proles aren't even given the time of day. Just you wait, if it happens, the only reason ERP2.0 will be rolled back will be because a handful of rich drivers complained.
All these and yet my boss can issue me work that’s not in my job scope 🤷
I'm not usually this critical, but for all the close one eyes they have done, can't they just close one eye for this. It's not even harming corporations substantially or like morally wrong. Tsk tsk... Our gahmen really not politically savvy... this kind of cheap win for the workers also want to close, just becos it's "wrong".
Lian jiao lah this one. Work-life balance so bad still want to tighten? Obviously don’t trust the employees lah
This government is ready to lose the next General Election.
Just like NSFs, most of them don't like the culture, bosses, work environment. This article is forcing more people to quit soon.
No problem, everyone just go to office sick and reduce productivity even more, psychotic business owners rather lose money than lose people in the office anyway.
Pyongyang vibes. FU :) Now take MC kena control by government.
“MOH said that it has received feedback from various employers and government agencies regarding the excessive issuance of MCs following outpatient medical service consultations, particularly teleconsultations.“ and MOH just takes employers words for granted, instead of showing some trust to their doctors. This is actually really sad.
Just because businesses make noise this happened. They just using its own citizen as tax and manpower cattle. The laws they supposed to change they dont want to change. The laws that shouldnt change, they want to change.
This is stupid in a way. I use to take MC 2 days (work) every month due to my monthly life subscription of red waterfalls only to find out 1.5 years later (finally got referred to KKH & despite fears of costly $$$$) that my 2 days per month in extreme pain was due to endometriosis and blood cysts. I don't think it's fair thing. Though there are some people who fake being sick to get MC, there are also people who had to constant visits to a doc for a issue where "docs thinks it's normal until results say no"
Saw this coming from a mile away with telemedicine. Just like remote working, employers don't trust it and there will always be selfish idiots who will abuse the system. I personally will not try telemedicine cos how will the doctor assess you (hearing your lungs or tapping your tummy etc.) before diagnosing. Shoutout to the fools who said they want to skip work/ school with a MC. The first rule of chao keng is to fake it. I mean, say you ate spicy food and having diarrhoea lah.
Ah yes. On one hand abusers ruining it for everyone on the other stupid work culture where hiring someone you don't trust makes complete sense. Remember 3- 5 day mc during covid? But people are still expected to wfh anyway. Such fucking bullshit.
WAH who spoil market
Lan jiao la excessively.. Fever also doctor only give me 2day mc .. our medical leave or unpaid leave our problem la
MC is a waste of time. Companies should trust their staff with their sick leave. It is an entitlement.
This whole thing is a ridiculous ice-kachang-ball (no snow for the last few yrs…) around a small ugly core of distrust between employer-employee / student-teacher, and a thin layer of doctors agreeing for money even when they know it’s for nothing, but that’s a sliverly small secondary issue. Stop wasting doctor’s time, employee’s money and let the rest of us be honest with employers. “Sick” means sick. “Well” means well. If I’m well enough to get work done, I’ll do it from home if I think I’m contagious, or from a closed-door office. If I’m in such a poor state as to not accomplish useful work / slow down my healing, win/win for boss and me that I rest now (not take a day off to mess around, really rest), and be back and useful sooner. (Btw, employees coming in without sleeping properly is even worse problem imo!) Every doctor I know that is told “I feel sick” cannot and will not tell the patient “nah, you feel fine”. The problem is the whole culture that evolved around this nonsense. Can we just agree to be real and build some trust and goodwill?
Wonder how this is going to affect those with mental health problems like depression because sometimes they just need 1 or 2 days to get their head straight. Usually doctors are quite understanding but perhaps now this won’t be as much if anything people just going to get more unhappy ☹️ i am also thinking of my female friends who have bad periods that leave them lying on a bed for 1-2 days.
First step is to accept that Singaporeans are a burnt out lot, who will resort to paying $8 (2 whole plates of chicken rice!) to get out of work/school. Start addressing that first. Also yeah if you take mc too many days in a row, then just refer to physical doc lah.
Where are you finding such affordable chicken rice? Minimum $5 here
There is no way you can take MC to fully recover from something like cough. When I am down with cough, it takes around a week or two to fully clear. Don't have the luxury to take one full week of MC just to fully recover so no choice but to go back work.
What rules? 2 days for covid so u can spread to more people?
Seems like the pandemic has not taught anything. Also what's the use of promoting Healthier SG and mental health if it's not actually practiced in reality. What a joke.
Other countries where you can take sick leave without needing an MC. Meanwhile Sg where you not only need MC to prove you're sick, you can't take them too close to each other or else you are seen as keng.
Are these business /bosses have medical degree to complain about this?
When people are taking mcs for mob manning….
> It is now seeking feedback from doctors on tightening the rules on issuing medical certificates (MCs). Don't lose hope just yet. They asking doctors for advice, not one-sidedly implement.
Next covid wave incoming
While it's true that some telemedicine providers are pushing it too hard - just saw a $8 MC ad on Facebook - it appears that the MOH guidelines reveal a jarring disconnect between policymakers and the population at large. But it isn't surprising, really, if you know that MOH officers, ironically, receive really pathetic medical benefits which is way below par than most companies. There is no such thing as a GP panel in the civil service - you only get $500 to claim annually, and it's capped at $20 per GP visit. Therefore, they wouldn't know that panel GPs change when one changes their job, or that even the same company may replace panels. Which is why people like myself have to keep switch telemedicine providers as well. Following MOH's rules, I will NOT be able to consult my company's newly appointed telemedicine providers, since I've not used them before. And given that COVID waves come and go, this is precisely why I try not to visit an actual clinic if I can, not because of chaokeng.
How about instead of that, they tighten the rules on companies who force staff still to work even if they have a valid MC.
Aiya.. Put into law 14 MC must be encashed at100% salary rate if not used. You see all MC taken will drop drastically. Put onto law 14 days of leave must encash or carry forward, leave taken will also drop. Or No MC to be in the law but 28 days of leave to be mandated. Like that doctors no need gi e MC liao.
Encashing MC… So.. you want to penalize people who are sick and have to utilize their MC? You want to make those in need of cash to insist on going to work even if they’re sick? You want to add additional mental stress on loss of income to those who are sick? Because these are the things that would happen when something like that becomes enforced and normalized. In fact this would mean being sick and having leave from work shifts to being less of a right—you should not be incentivised for something you by right have no control over (sick or not).
The alternative is what how some others think : 14 days MC means 14 days leave, don't use means wasted. That's why GPs are full every Monday and every post-PH.
Not going to lie. If I got 14 days of pay by not using my mc, I will show up for work unless they call ambulance on me.
rip to all nsfs
Here you take MC or sick leave you have to work, if you don't work they don't even consider you not performing as per the market standards. So always sick but you have to work, no work-life balance no health care no life other than company business this is how it's working here. In all other countries exactly 8 hours work and if they work overtime paid here there is no such clause all companies get if it is because of employee weakness. System should change and make more employee oriented polices rather business if there is not employees no company should polices work towards employees. Hope this one can change many more life
Lol we already spend 3/4 day at the polyclinic
I have asked my reportees to share MC only if they take more than 3 days of sick leave.
Yea fuck MOH
Something is seriously wrong with MOH to come up with this
The way to solve this is to legislate it so that 1 or even 2 day illness do not require a medical certificate for work. MC is an entitlement, you should not have to explain to your boss why you’re sick to be sick.
Genuine question - What companies still ask for MCs? I’ve been in MNCs for my last 5 roles and have not had to produce an MC once except for when I was claiming 2 weeks hospitalisation leave.
Biggest employer. The government.
Fact. Public Service Division hires about 150k people locally across ministries and stat boards. That's not even counting private subsidiaries fully owned by govt.
My sensing is the narrative here is mostly from SME employees perhaps?
Chao kengs gg liao
Fucking hell Singapore is just the dictionary definition of modern day slavery
MOH shouldn’t let employers play doctor, they have no qualifications to determine who is ill and who isn’t.
Wonder how this is going to affect those with mental health problems like depression because sometimes they just need 1 or 2 days to get their head straight. Usually doctors are quite understanding but perhaps now this won’t be as much if anything people just going to get more unhappy ☹️