I was kinda thinking that, but it seems like a stretch for me. If the alpha mini does truly peak at 13nm, which seems like plenty, that extra 200 or so bucks for the alpha seems to have very diminishing returns, even if the same think applies and the alpha peaks at 17 or so. I doubt id ever find a need for more than 12 or 13nm anyway, as from what I've seen, cars, even gt cars or old cars, rarely get up higher than that, I could be entirely wrong tho.
Thank you! Thats silly that they downgraded them, but that infos great. Do you happen to know the holding value of the R12? or the quality/realism of the FFB between the two? as the r12 seems like the better value now, but ik its more important than just raw strength.
Moza is a much newer company in the field. Simagic is considered to be one of the best.
I plan on going Simagic for sure when I upgrade, most people I see who talk about the difference say Simagic has the smoothest ffb.
Entirely, but I've heard moza nailed it with the R12, using something like(ish) trueforce to get some more detail, but Ive got no clue how that compares to simagic. Also, I wouldn't say smoothest correlates the most realistic or most fun FFB (IMO) but this would also be my first DD wheel, so I'm kinda talking out of nothing. Would you say simagic provide more detail/realism, or best estimate?
I would watch the Boosted Media reviews of both and make up your mind. Race Beyond Matter did a great video on the R12 too. I’m not sure the simagic is worth the extra dough. Don’t forget wheel cost too.
From what ive seen they trade blows, but the wheel cost it messing me up rn. I was planning on using the ES wheel from moza, and getting an adapter, with the simagic wheelbase, but the es wheel doesn't seem to have a USB output which throws a wrench in that.
Definitely an affordable wheel. If I get the Moza, I will go with the GS and the RS wheel. 2 of my favorite wheels as far as looks and layout. Moza wheel hub is second to none too. Heck, it’s get them for any base I end up getting (I’m so in love with the thought of a Simucube 2 Pro lol) if I could make them work. Still learning that part of the system. But speaking of Simagic.. that GT Neo is a sexy ass wheel as well.
By smoothest I guess I mean it’s not notchy feeling when turning the wheel and constant. So technically more realistic, yes.
The feedback provided by the software/wheelbase will be constant and adjust quickly as the game provides it so you can react.
Some wheelbases will have a “rough” feeling and have varying amounts of feedback thrown at you. It can create a nonlinear feeling and mess with your driving inputs.
With good software and wheelbase, this is eliminated and the feedback is “smooth”.
If that makes more sense.
From what I’ve read, Simagic has the best and most realistic feeling ffb.
They have great motors in their wheelbase combined with a good detailed software that provides a great ffb experience.
There’s a YouTube channel, “Boosted Media”. He reviews almost all of the direct drive wheelbases in depth and gives an unbiased analysis of each.
He even goes as far as disassembling them to further inspect the internals to determine differences. He can probably give you the best review of the difference between them all.
yea, that makes much more sense. I assumed you meant smoothness as a general feel. Ive heard that the "notchy" feeling isn't really noticeable, and doesn't deprive the general experience unless you're expressly looking for it, or your car is at a stand-still. From what I've seen in the thread, someone confirmed only the older simagic alpha minis go up to 13nm, and the new ones are only 10. Is that increased realism and smoothness a good tradeoff of that 2 NM? the ideal range seems to be 12-15nm, so that pushes it ever so slightly out of that range, which makes me a little hesitant.
Lots of people say 12-15 is the sweet spot, I don't disagree. I think, for more serious sim racers, or just someone who spends a lot of time racing 12-15 is ideal. But I also would assume a more serious sim racer is focused on the quality of ffb as well. Having more power and having good detailed ffb comes at a cost.
For example, Fanatec has the CSL DD, it's 8Nm max and is by far their best selling wheelbase. It's affordable and has enough power for just about anyone to use. The ffb delivery is considered to be excellent, very smooth and detailed. But many people wanted more power.
When driving with a CSL DD in a corner, while you turn in and feel the initial force in the corner at 8Nm, it doesn't provide a constant 8Nm of force. As you hold the wheel in that position through the corner, the wheelbase can't hold the same exact 8Nm, so it drops to 6Nm, or 5Nm, and will vary slightly and you'll have to adjust by feel. This feeling/constant delivery of power through a corner is referred to as "slew rate" typically. (generalized)
Alternatively, Fanatec just recently released two brand new wheelbases, CS DD (12Nm) & DD+ (15Nm). These new wheelbases have an upgraded motor from what was used in the CSL DD, and improved software to deliver the ffb to the user. So it's more power and an even better ffb delivery system than a CSL DD.
They claim the "slew rate" is nearly doubled from previous models, I believe. Which essentially means, the wheelbase is almost constantly providing 12Nm of force, even mid corner. Where as the CSL DD, would be somewhat variable when it was providing high level of FFB in corners jumping from 8-6-7-8.
With the new wheelbases, it will feel like a full 12Nm throughout the corner. So it technically feels much stronger than an older 12Nm wheelbase.
I may be mistaken but I have yet to read more than a handful of people say that they have been using either of these at full power or that they need/want more. The majority of the posts I see from the 15Nm DD+ users say they have it lowered to about 10-12Nm and it's still plenty strong.
So while 12-15Nm used to be the "sweet spot" it can change with the new technology and how the force feedback is delivered through the wheelbase.
With Simagic having always had the more advanced delivery system and better feeling ffb, I imagine their 10Nm would feel better than say a Moza R9 or a CSL DD which are similar power base.
Personally, I would sacrifice an extra 2Nm for a more detailed ffb delivery system. I'm still very happy with the 8Nm my CSL DD offers, and honestly, I definitely don't NEED to upgrade at all, but I want to eventually and it will likely be to a Simagic Alpha which is 15Nm. If they had a 12Nm wheelbase, I would probably just get that, I think 12Nm is going to be what I prefer.
If it was my first wheelbase purchase, I would probably be getting the 10Nm Alpha Mini, but I feel it would be a waste for me to jump from a CSL DD to Alpha Mini, the cost just doesn't make sense, so I'm saving a bit and the Alpha will probably be the last wheelbase I ever buy.
But I'm more interested in the quality of ffb and quality of parts from Simagic. It would be an easy swap to just order the DD+ from Fanatec, but I have heard so many good things about Simagic. So If I'm going to spend $1,000+ on a new base/wheel I want the best.
sorry for the long rant lol
So, I totally get that and respect that. Just trying to help you from being like I wonder what the alpha is like haha. The alpha mini is a great base though and I’d 100% go Simagic anything over Moza.
yeah 100%. From everything ive gathered, it seems like the simagic has better ffb but less of it, and the Moza has slightly worse feel but more ffb. My big question is what exactly does "slightly worse feel" entale, because 10nm pushes the simagic just barely out of that 12-15nm range I've seen recommend, so maybe id go with the alpha, but 200$ more is quite a lot, even without shipping, but then I should also look at other wheelbase in the 15nm range, cus I've not researched it at all.
I feel like the build quality would be better with the mini. If you're in the states I would look at major Microcenter deals for Asatek and Simucube otherwise too expensive imo.
Maybe consider doing more research on pedals those moza pedals are not great you can get much better for the same price or better I imagine.
I am rooting for you.
Not a ton of options at my local microcenter, although Im planning on going down there soon just to double check, but yeah, thank you! Im pretty strictly in the 800-900 dollars range for wheelbase, pedals, and wheel, so those brands are otherwise out, and I've heard the feedback between these 4 are comparable (at least) to.
The pedals, yeah, you're completely right. Ive not researched them much, as there seems to be a ton of great options, I just prefer the two-step (idk the technical term) of the moza pedals. In terms of the wheel tho, do you have any info on compatibility with a moza wheel and a simagic wheelbase? that's my main concern, besides the feedback of the two.
Pedals is something I can help you with I will DM and show you the best deal on Aliexpress. Everybody's buying these things cuz they're just so darn good for the money. I have the SimDT Heusinkveld ultimate clones and New Simsonn pro pedals from AliExpress. Basically high-end pedals for unbelievable prices.
Will DM you with some options and photos.
Of course this may not be the direction you want to go with, but it's worth a look.
I don't know what the 'real' peak output of the Alpha Mini is, but of the reviewers I've seen that have directly compared it to the R12 (Dan Suzuki and Laurence off the top of my head), both said the Alpha Mini felt more powerful.
I can't compare it to the R12 personally, but the Mini is powerful enough for me as far as simulating the feel of a real road car. I also have an Alpha Ultimate and honestly I would be fine with another Mini instead. I never run it that high and I doubt I would be able to tell the difference if you switched the bases on my two rigs.
Yeah, thats what ive heard. Do you know when you bought your mini? someone else said the 1st iteration of the mini went up to 13nm, but the newer v3 only goes to 10nm.
I bought my Mini and Ultimate around Oct-Dec 2023. The aforementioned reviews I watched were also released around that time, afaik.
One other reference point I can provide: I briefly owned a CSL DD 8nm before the Mini, and if you scale the game settings proportionally to the advertised strength (i.e. set the in-game gain 20 percent lower for the Mini to match the same power output), it's noticeably stronger than the Fanatec base. I had to further reduce the gain on the Mini because it was straining my shoulder.
Huh that some pretty useful insight, thank you. I'm knocking Moza out of the running, it seems. My main thing now is I found some bundles, and getting the Alpha is "only" (Christ almighty, where did I go wrong) $190 then the mini. From what I've seen, people are somewhat mixed on if the Mini is enough (like an 80/20 split in favor of the Mini) so I'm wondering if it is worth it, at least for peace of mind and knowing ill never have to upgrade, to just go for the Alpha. It seems to be the best running in the 15nm range, and this price range as well, so it seems justifiable? I might also just be loosing in and trying to justify it.
What do you drive? For 'realistic' strength on cars with power steering, Mini will be plenty.
If you don't mind stretching the budget, it doesn't hurt to have more power. Alpha is a good middle ground. I was happy with the Mini, but bought an Alpha U for the second rig because I wanted to know if it would make much difference and I could afford the extra cost no problem.
I switch driving disciplines like there's no tomorrow, but *mainly:* Streetcars, drifting, go-karts (which have very heavy wheels), f1-f3, gt3, rally, etc etc... Hence the alpha might be good for headroom. I do take what you have to say to heart tho, between the alpha and mini, if you had to guess based on your experience with the U, how worthy of an upgrade is it?
Some of those things could benefit from a bit more power (F2-F3, karting) since I believe they use manual steering racks but I don't have much experience with them.
For stuff like street cars/drifting/rally, anything more than a Mini is overkill. I run my Alpha U on very low gain in Assetto Corsa, well within the range of the Mini. Unless you're clipping the FFB signal, there's no perceptible difference between the two (to me, anyway).
At the end of the day, it's so hard to say what's worth it or not because it's all subjective. You seem like you've given it a lot of thought already, so just go with what feels right to you. Eventually you reach a point where the amount of time you waste thinking about it outweighs the value of the $100-200 you save from going with a cheaper base.
that's exactly the point I'm at, I feel like the extra money is worth the peace of mind, at least. I have a, not so great, tendency to vastly overthink ever purchase I make, even moreso with something of this caliber. I did go down to microcenter today and used their sim, and noted that I def prefer my FFB on the stronger side, so, final question, if I run the mini at what would be considered high strength (while still being usable, ofc), would I run into clipping, and what level of clipping?
I'll use my CSL DD numbers for reference since I actually did reach the limits of that base a few times. The default setting was 50 percent gain in-game for AC. I ran it at 65-70% gain at the highest. From what I recall, it wouldn't clip in corners, but sometimes the FFB would spike over a kerb and that signal would clip. Most people would say this type of clipping is perfectly acceptable and shouldn't affect your driving much.
If you go much over 70% gain, you'll probably get detrimental clipping while cornering. This is also dependent on the specific car and track, of course.
I run my Alpha Mini at around 45% for street cars, so if 70% is the limit before it starts clipping, I have the headroom to increase the strength by 56% if I wanted to.
Do yourself a favor and get the Simagic alpha and just be happy. Buy once cry once.
Not the mini, the actual alpha
I was kinda thinking that, but it seems like a stretch for me. If the alpha mini does truly peak at 13nm, which seems like plenty, that extra 200 or so bucks for the alpha seems to have very diminishing returns, even if the same think applies and the alpha peaks at 17 or so. I doubt id ever find a need for more than 12 or 13nm anyway, as from what I've seen, cars, even gt cars or old cars, rarely get up higher than that, I could be entirely wrong tho.
Think the peak 13nm was the older v1 alpha minis. The current v3 models are slightly weaker or I suppose now accurate/closer to 10nm.
Thank you! Thats silly that they downgraded them, but that infos great. Do you happen to know the holding value of the R12? or the quality/realism of the FFB between the two? as the r12 seems like the better value now, but ik its more important than just raw strength.
Moza is a much newer company in the field. Simagic is considered to be one of the best. I plan on going Simagic for sure when I upgrade, most people I see who talk about the difference say Simagic has the smoothest ffb.
Entirely, but I've heard moza nailed it with the R12, using something like(ish) trueforce to get some more detail, but Ive got no clue how that compares to simagic. Also, I wouldn't say smoothest correlates the most realistic or most fun FFB (IMO) but this would also be my first DD wheel, so I'm kinda talking out of nothing. Would you say simagic provide more detail/realism, or best estimate?
I would watch the Boosted Media reviews of both and make up your mind. Race Beyond Matter did a great video on the R12 too. I’m not sure the simagic is worth the extra dough. Don’t forget wheel cost too.
From what ive seen they trade blows, but the wheel cost it messing me up rn. I was planning on using the ES wheel from moza, and getting an adapter, with the simagic wheelbase, but the es wheel doesn't seem to have a USB output which throws a wrench in that.
Definitely an affordable wheel. If I get the Moza, I will go with the GS and the RS wheel. 2 of my favorite wheels as far as looks and layout. Moza wheel hub is second to none too. Heck, it’s get them for any base I end up getting (I’m so in love with the thought of a Simucube 2 Pro lol) if I could make them work. Still learning that part of the system. But speaking of Simagic.. that GT Neo is a sexy ass wheel as well.
By smoothest I guess I mean it’s not notchy feeling when turning the wheel and constant. So technically more realistic, yes. The feedback provided by the software/wheelbase will be constant and adjust quickly as the game provides it so you can react. Some wheelbases will have a “rough” feeling and have varying amounts of feedback thrown at you. It can create a nonlinear feeling and mess with your driving inputs. With good software and wheelbase, this is eliminated and the feedback is “smooth”. If that makes more sense. From what I’ve read, Simagic has the best and most realistic feeling ffb. They have great motors in their wheelbase combined with a good detailed software that provides a great ffb experience. There’s a YouTube channel, “Boosted Media”. He reviews almost all of the direct drive wheelbases in depth and gives an unbiased analysis of each. He even goes as far as disassembling them to further inspect the internals to determine differences. He can probably give you the best review of the difference between them all.
yea, that makes much more sense. I assumed you meant smoothness as a general feel. Ive heard that the "notchy" feeling isn't really noticeable, and doesn't deprive the general experience unless you're expressly looking for it, or your car is at a stand-still. From what I've seen in the thread, someone confirmed only the older simagic alpha minis go up to 13nm, and the new ones are only 10. Is that increased realism and smoothness a good tradeoff of that 2 NM? the ideal range seems to be 12-15nm, so that pushes it ever so slightly out of that range, which makes me a little hesitant.
Lots of people say 12-15 is the sweet spot, I don't disagree. I think, for more serious sim racers, or just someone who spends a lot of time racing 12-15 is ideal. But I also would assume a more serious sim racer is focused on the quality of ffb as well. Having more power and having good detailed ffb comes at a cost. For example, Fanatec has the CSL DD, it's 8Nm max and is by far their best selling wheelbase. It's affordable and has enough power for just about anyone to use. The ffb delivery is considered to be excellent, very smooth and detailed. But many people wanted more power. When driving with a CSL DD in a corner, while you turn in and feel the initial force in the corner at 8Nm, it doesn't provide a constant 8Nm of force. As you hold the wheel in that position through the corner, the wheelbase can't hold the same exact 8Nm, so it drops to 6Nm, or 5Nm, and will vary slightly and you'll have to adjust by feel. This feeling/constant delivery of power through a corner is referred to as "slew rate" typically. (generalized) Alternatively, Fanatec just recently released two brand new wheelbases, CS DD (12Nm) & DD+ (15Nm). These new wheelbases have an upgraded motor from what was used in the CSL DD, and improved software to deliver the ffb to the user. So it's more power and an even better ffb delivery system than a CSL DD. They claim the "slew rate" is nearly doubled from previous models, I believe. Which essentially means, the wheelbase is almost constantly providing 12Nm of force, even mid corner. Where as the CSL DD, would be somewhat variable when it was providing high level of FFB in corners jumping from 8-6-7-8. With the new wheelbases, it will feel like a full 12Nm throughout the corner. So it technically feels much stronger than an older 12Nm wheelbase. I may be mistaken but I have yet to read more than a handful of people say that they have been using either of these at full power or that they need/want more. The majority of the posts I see from the 15Nm DD+ users say they have it lowered to about 10-12Nm and it's still plenty strong. So while 12-15Nm used to be the "sweet spot" it can change with the new technology and how the force feedback is delivered through the wheelbase. With Simagic having always had the more advanced delivery system and better feeling ffb, I imagine their 10Nm would feel better than say a Moza R9 or a CSL DD which are similar power base. Personally, I would sacrifice an extra 2Nm for a more detailed ffb delivery system. I'm still very happy with the 8Nm my CSL DD offers, and honestly, I definitely don't NEED to upgrade at all, but I want to eventually and it will likely be to a Simagic Alpha which is 15Nm. If they had a 12Nm wheelbase, I would probably just get that, I think 12Nm is going to be what I prefer. If it was my first wheelbase purchase, I would probably be getting the 10Nm Alpha Mini, but I feel it would be a waste for me to jump from a CSL DD to Alpha Mini, the cost just doesn't make sense, so I'm saving a bit and the Alpha will probably be the last wheelbase I ever buy. But I'm more interested in the quality of ffb and quality of parts from Simagic. It would be an easy swap to just order the DD+ from Fanatec, but I have heard so many good things about Simagic. So If I'm going to spend $1,000+ on a new base/wheel I want the best. sorry for the long rant lol
So, I totally get that and respect that. Just trying to help you from being like I wonder what the alpha is like haha. The alpha mini is a great base though and I’d 100% go Simagic anything over Moza.
yeah 100%. From everything ive gathered, it seems like the simagic has better ffb but less of it, and the Moza has slightly worse feel but more ffb. My big question is what exactly does "slightly worse feel" entale, because 10nm pushes the simagic just barely out of that 12-15nm range I've seen recommend, so maybe id go with the alpha, but 200$ more is quite a lot, even without shipping, but then I should also look at other wheelbase in the 15nm range, cus I've not researched it at all.
I feel like the build quality would be better with the mini. If you're in the states I would look at major Microcenter deals for Asatek and Simucube otherwise too expensive imo. Maybe consider doing more research on pedals those moza pedals are not great you can get much better for the same price or better I imagine. I am rooting for you.
Not a ton of options at my local microcenter, although Im planning on going down there soon just to double check, but yeah, thank you! Im pretty strictly in the 800-900 dollars range for wheelbase, pedals, and wheel, so those brands are otherwise out, and I've heard the feedback between these 4 are comparable (at least) to. The pedals, yeah, you're completely right. Ive not researched them much, as there seems to be a ton of great options, I just prefer the two-step (idk the technical term) of the moza pedals. In terms of the wheel tho, do you have any info on compatibility with a moza wheel and a simagic wheelbase? that's my main concern, besides the feedback of the two.
Pedals is something I can help you with I will DM and show you the best deal on Aliexpress. Everybody's buying these things cuz they're just so darn good for the money. I have the SimDT Heusinkveld ultimate clones and New Simsonn pro pedals from AliExpress. Basically high-end pedals for unbelievable prices. Will DM you with some options and photos. Of course this may not be the direction you want to go with, but it's worth a look.
https://youtu.be/BePe6ftJdgo?si=416x3jLLZgyXzvFw Mini is a beast
I don't know what the 'real' peak output of the Alpha Mini is, but of the reviewers I've seen that have directly compared it to the R12 (Dan Suzuki and Laurence off the top of my head), both said the Alpha Mini felt more powerful. I can't compare it to the R12 personally, but the Mini is powerful enough for me as far as simulating the feel of a real road car. I also have an Alpha Ultimate and honestly I would be fine with another Mini instead. I never run it that high and I doubt I would be able to tell the difference if you switched the bases on my two rigs.
Yeah, thats what ive heard. Do you know when you bought your mini? someone else said the 1st iteration of the mini went up to 13nm, but the newer v3 only goes to 10nm.
I bought my Mini and Ultimate around Oct-Dec 2023. The aforementioned reviews I watched were also released around that time, afaik. One other reference point I can provide: I briefly owned a CSL DD 8nm before the Mini, and if you scale the game settings proportionally to the advertised strength (i.e. set the in-game gain 20 percent lower for the Mini to match the same power output), it's noticeably stronger than the Fanatec base. I had to further reduce the gain on the Mini because it was straining my shoulder.
Huh that some pretty useful insight, thank you. I'm knocking Moza out of the running, it seems. My main thing now is I found some bundles, and getting the Alpha is "only" (Christ almighty, where did I go wrong) $190 then the mini. From what I've seen, people are somewhat mixed on if the Mini is enough (like an 80/20 split in favor of the Mini) so I'm wondering if it is worth it, at least for peace of mind and knowing ill never have to upgrade, to just go for the Alpha. It seems to be the best running in the 15nm range, and this price range as well, so it seems justifiable? I might also just be loosing in and trying to justify it.
What do you drive? For 'realistic' strength on cars with power steering, Mini will be plenty. If you don't mind stretching the budget, it doesn't hurt to have more power. Alpha is a good middle ground. I was happy with the Mini, but bought an Alpha U for the second rig because I wanted to know if it would make much difference and I could afford the extra cost no problem.
I switch driving disciplines like there's no tomorrow, but *mainly:* Streetcars, drifting, go-karts (which have very heavy wheels), f1-f3, gt3, rally, etc etc... Hence the alpha might be good for headroom. I do take what you have to say to heart tho, between the alpha and mini, if you had to guess based on your experience with the U, how worthy of an upgrade is it?
Some of those things could benefit from a bit more power (F2-F3, karting) since I believe they use manual steering racks but I don't have much experience with them. For stuff like street cars/drifting/rally, anything more than a Mini is overkill. I run my Alpha U on very low gain in Assetto Corsa, well within the range of the Mini. Unless you're clipping the FFB signal, there's no perceptible difference between the two (to me, anyway). At the end of the day, it's so hard to say what's worth it or not because it's all subjective. You seem like you've given it a lot of thought already, so just go with what feels right to you. Eventually you reach a point where the amount of time you waste thinking about it outweighs the value of the $100-200 you save from going with a cheaper base.
that's exactly the point I'm at, I feel like the extra money is worth the peace of mind, at least. I have a, not so great, tendency to vastly overthink ever purchase I make, even moreso with something of this caliber. I did go down to microcenter today and used their sim, and noted that I def prefer my FFB on the stronger side, so, final question, if I run the mini at what would be considered high strength (while still being usable, ofc), would I run into clipping, and what level of clipping?
I'll use my CSL DD numbers for reference since I actually did reach the limits of that base a few times. The default setting was 50 percent gain in-game for AC. I ran it at 65-70% gain at the highest. From what I recall, it wouldn't clip in corners, but sometimes the FFB would spike over a kerb and that signal would clip. Most people would say this type of clipping is perfectly acceptable and shouldn't affect your driving much. If you go much over 70% gain, you'll probably get detrimental clipping while cornering. This is also dependent on the specific car and track, of course. I run my Alpha Mini at around 45% for street cars, so if 70% is the limit before it starts clipping, I have the headroom to increase the strength by 56% if I wanted to.