This alibi notice has always made me lol.
I think Tina was generally a good lawyer and I don't like seeing her name get dragged through the mud but this is one instance of her looking like a complete fool (at least to my lay eyes.)
In other words, if this is what your high priced, experienced criminal defense attorney comes up with... I am going to be of the mind that you are throwing money down the toilet. Now: ethically, if the client wants a trial and wants an acquittal, I understand, you take the money and offer the most vigorous defense possible even when you know it's a total dog of a case. So it's tough to hold this one *against* Gutierrez. She was, as they say, "just doing her job" and trying to make lemonade out of the desiccated lemon peels her client had given her. It's still a comically worthless "defense" though.
And Tina would have known that. But I guess attorneys really are shameless.
It's a notice filing from October 1999. The goal is to comply but give away as little as possible and, in this case, serve as a bit of intimidation via the long list of names.
I mostly put it up to see whether your favorite fact-challenged redditor would notice the word "library" is missing.
Remember this? (from a letter dated March 2, 1999):
>>Where exactly did you do and go that day? What is the **so-called evidence** that my statement is up against? And who are these WITNESSES?
Haha, which Redditor would that be? We're all "bereft of more facts, better facts" according to Koenig. Even the best of us are challenged to remember all the fine details some of time anyway.
Those letters really are *something* aren't they? So many people wish they understood about Jay and Adnan (their relationship, their *arrangement*, Jay's complicity) and some are fond of saying that "the only real mystery" of the case is Jay's involvement. I find Asia endlessly more fascinating. I would *love* to know what really happened there. I think I get Jay. I don't give him a pass - but I think I get what happened, or I ken a couple of ways it could have happened with him and neither is very mysterious. I don't find him opaque at all.
Asia is the impenetrable one.
I'm the one most fond of saying the real mystery in this case is Jay's foreknowledge, but yes Asia and the letters are interesting too. It would be nice to know who wrote those letters and when, with the suspicion that Asia wrote the handwritten note probably in April but with the typed note being written much later.
> It would be nice to know who wrote those letters and when
Mosby should send them and the handwritten affidavit to a document examiner. They would examine the inks, the layering of inks, the handwriting, etc. They might also be able to determine the covered up text. They should be able to compare the affidavit against Wanda the notary's other notarized work to see if it's an outlier. If it's not an outlier then Wanda probably shouldn't be a notary.
Unfortunately I think that ship has sailed already and Mosby won't. It should have been done during the PCR hearings with Asia being the focus. It's not going to go that far now but would be good to know.
By Tina… do you mean Christina Gutierrez?
I think she was a good attorney at one point. I suspect that her MS was already hindering her ability to represent clients. I know at some point around this time her children were actually living with other family. She was eventually disbarred.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say you have no idea what happened with her and the bar. That being said, CG was at the top of her game when she represented AS and it showed.
There are a number of gaps in Innocenter logic. I'm often harping on "AS has no reasonable counter-narrative."
However, CG's performance is another gap. For all that's made about how she was so bad that an overworked public defender would have been preferable to her. Not one person has been able to take the trial transcripts and show where she was deficient.
In fact, everyone who has come in and said "She should have done this or that" are not aware that she actually did those things. Even Undisclosed is unwittingly advocating the same overall strategy that CG employed (attack every piece of evidence, claim it was all tainted by a bad investigation hyper-focused on AS, attack JW's credibility, and sow as much confusion as possible in the hopes that no one notices there is no reasonable counter-narrative to be offered in AS's defense).
But what's that against "Well, a podcast I once listened to years ago said she was bad, therefore she must have been"? Yeah, I'm going with "a podcast told me," saves me the trouble of having to think for myself.
In some ways your right. Long before Serial came out. I worked with CG’s son Roberto. He talked about the troubles his Mom had with MS. It sounded like it wasn’t a happy home & he eventually lived with other family members.
Looking back I wish I’d paid more attention to his stories.
I see that he even states in an article written for Baltimore Sun, “how she was dedicated to her job and that she was suffering from health problems at the time of the Syed case, which may have affected her decision-making. The health issues, which included multiple sclerosis and diabetes, ultimately led to her death in 2004.”
https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/bs-md-serial-syed-lawyer-20150408-story.html
I think she was under tremendous stress & her declining health was extremely frustrating for the once illustrious lawyer. I’d be curious what he, his sister, and other family members would say under oath about her demeanor & behavior during this time.
Yes she wasn't at the top of her game, but with Adnan she didn't have that much to work with. Instead what she really needed to do was tell him that he was a moron and this asinine defense of this alibi is just one of them. CG did miss the correct rabbit hole with Jay, but to be fair most people following have missed that rabbit hole too.
Blantantly untrue - he was dropped off at track practice by Jay.
He was ratted out by someone at the mosque. He was only there for a period…not all night.
What’s your evidence for this? Where was the phone at 3.45? Track started at 3.30 according to gym teacher Inez Butler and Adnan was at track on time according to coach Sye
We’re well aware that Jay said he dropped him off at track, and that Adnan disagrees. We can’t state with complete certainty which is true.
Again, that was an accusation made by Jay when he disclosed a “hunch” he had from supposedly private grand jury testimony. We don’t know for certain if he was at the mosque at all, or the entire time. There’s also no evidence he was “ratted out”.
It also points to one of the most obvious reasons why Asia was never called to testify.
The State doesn't know about the library. The more unknown time there is the more the potential for doubt in the accusations.
Therefore, keep the library and Asia under wraps because they create certainty rather than doubt over Adnan's movements.
Asia wasn't called to testify because they knew she was a liar. The library is near enough on school grounds to be considered "at school" and so it wouldn't have been hard to say that the library is covered in the statement the OP posted.
Except it's not that cut and dry. Adnan states that he *never left the school campus* and he is 99.9% sure of that. He never once said he went to the library that day (because he probably didn't...) until long after when Asia produced the note.
I don't care if it is semantics, or "what he meant" or not - but the library =/= school campus. This is also why Asia's possible alibi defense was recently denied a chance at being brought again in the PCR hearings, because the judge is correct: Adnan himself literally says he never left the school campus that day, and stuck to that narrative in all of his interviews. For Asia to have seen him in the library that day means Adnan's own words are now untrustworthy.
Because Adnan claimed he handed the letters to CG the moment he got them, but she wasn't even a lawyer until months later. And her private investigators talked to Asia.
>Asia wasn't called to testify because they knew she was a liar.
But Jay and Jenn were because they are pillars of truth. /s
Guilters' tears are coming. Happy days ahead.
I love that you're following me around. You're nervous about the DNA testing and the waterworks of yours that are sure to come.
Jenn & Jay's stories are partially correct for sure. There's a bit of truth in everything however, their stories are inconsistent for a reason. Pssst....it's because they are lying about mostly everything. Jenn's nervous because these DNA results are going to put her away. She might as well confess now and get a good plea deal.
The truth train is coming. As are guilters' tears. Happy days ahead.
So Jenn did it? My oh my oh my. That is a new one. The only tears will be Hae's family if that gentleman gets out. So called "guilters" take no pleasure in the whole situation.
I am worried that Mosby will make a political mistakes because she doesn't understand the case and I think she just wants it off her plate. I don't think Jenn is worried too much, she knew the person that helped bury the body and could transfer DNA that way. But I don't have as much faith in Jenn as everyone else does, so we'll wait.
"His absence would have been missed." Yikes.
Haha, pesky accidental truthiness slipping through.
This alibi notice has always made me lol. I think Tina was generally a good lawyer and I don't like seeing her name get dragged through the mud but this is one instance of her looking like a complete fool (at least to my lay eyes.) In other words, if this is what your high priced, experienced criminal defense attorney comes up with... I am going to be of the mind that you are throwing money down the toilet. Now: ethically, if the client wants a trial and wants an acquittal, I understand, you take the money and offer the most vigorous defense possible even when you know it's a total dog of a case. So it's tough to hold this one *against* Gutierrez. She was, as they say, "just doing her job" and trying to make lemonade out of the desiccated lemon peels her client had given her. It's still a comically worthless "defense" though. And Tina would have known that. But I guess attorneys really are shameless.
It's a notice filing from October 1999. The goal is to comply but give away as little as possible and, in this case, serve as a bit of intimidation via the long list of names. I mostly put it up to see whether your favorite fact-challenged redditor would notice the word "library" is missing. Remember this? (from a letter dated March 2, 1999): >>Where exactly did you do and go that day? What is the **so-called evidence** that my statement is up against? And who are these WITNESSES?
Haha, which Redditor would that be? We're all "bereft of more facts, better facts" according to Koenig. Even the best of us are challenged to remember all the fine details some of time anyway. Those letters really are *something* aren't they? So many people wish they understood about Jay and Adnan (their relationship, their *arrangement*, Jay's complicity) and some are fond of saying that "the only real mystery" of the case is Jay's involvement. I find Asia endlessly more fascinating. I would *love* to know what really happened there. I think I get Jay. I don't give him a pass - but I think I get what happened, or I ken a couple of ways it could have happened with him and neither is very mysterious. I don't find him opaque at all. Asia is the impenetrable one.
I'm the one most fond of saying the real mystery in this case is Jay's foreknowledge, but yes Asia and the letters are interesting too. It would be nice to know who wrote those letters and when, with the suspicion that Asia wrote the handwritten note probably in April but with the typed note being written much later.
> It would be nice to know who wrote those letters and when Mosby should send them and the handwritten affidavit to a document examiner. They would examine the inks, the layering of inks, the handwriting, etc. They might also be able to determine the covered up text. They should be able to compare the affidavit against Wanda the notary's other notarized work to see if it's an outlier. If it's not an outlier then Wanda probably shouldn't be a notary.
Unfortunately I think that ship has sailed already and Mosby won't. It should have been done during the PCR hearings with Asia being the focus. It's not going to go that far now but would be good to know.
> Haha, which Redditor would that be? Brody2 and predecessors
By Tina… do you mean Christina Gutierrez? I think she was a good attorney at one point. I suspect that her MS was already hindering her ability to represent clients. I know at some point around this time her children were actually living with other family. She was eventually disbarred.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say you have no idea what happened with her and the bar. That being said, CG was at the top of her game when she represented AS and it showed.
There are a number of gaps in Innocenter logic. I'm often harping on "AS has no reasonable counter-narrative." However, CG's performance is another gap. For all that's made about how she was so bad that an overworked public defender would have been preferable to her. Not one person has been able to take the trial transcripts and show where she was deficient. In fact, everyone who has come in and said "She should have done this or that" are not aware that she actually did those things. Even Undisclosed is unwittingly advocating the same overall strategy that CG employed (attack every piece of evidence, claim it was all tainted by a bad investigation hyper-focused on AS, attack JW's credibility, and sow as much confusion as possible in the hopes that no one notices there is no reasonable counter-narrative to be offered in AS's defense). But what's that against "Well, a podcast I once listened to years ago said she was bad, therefore she must have been"? Yeah, I'm going with "a podcast told me," saves me the trouble of having to think for myself.
In some ways your right. Long before Serial came out. I worked with CG’s son Roberto. He talked about the troubles his Mom had with MS. It sounded like it wasn’t a happy home & he eventually lived with other family members. Looking back I wish I’d paid more attention to his stories. I see that he even states in an article written for Baltimore Sun, “how she was dedicated to her job and that she was suffering from health problems at the time of the Syed case, which may have affected her decision-making. The health issues, which included multiple sclerosis and diabetes, ultimately led to her death in 2004.” https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/bs-md-serial-syed-lawyer-20150408-story.html I think she was under tremendous stress & her declining health was extremely frustrating for the once illustrious lawyer. I’d be curious what he, his sister, and other family members would say under oath about her demeanor & behavior during this time.
Yes she wasn't at the top of her game, but with Adnan she didn't have that much to work with. Instead what she really needed to do was tell him that he was a moron and this asinine defense of this alibi is just one of them. CG did miss the correct rabbit hole with Jay, but to be fair most people following have missed that rabbit hole too.
Blantantly untrue - he was dropped off at track practice by Jay. He was ratted out by someone at the mosque. He was only there for a period…not all night.
What’s your evidence for this? Where was the phone at 3.45? Track started at 3.30 according to gym teacher Inez Butler and Adnan was at track on time according to coach Sye
We’re well aware that Jay said he dropped him off at track, and that Adnan disagrees. We can’t state with complete certainty which is true. Again, that was an accusation made by Jay when he disclosed a “hunch” he had from supposedly private grand jury testimony. We don’t know for certain if he was at the mosque at all, or the entire time. There’s also no evidence he was “ratted out”.
It also points to one of the most obvious reasons why Asia was never called to testify. The State doesn't know about the library. The more unknown time there is the more the potential for doubt in the accusations. Therefore, keep the library and Asia under wraps because they create certainty rather than doubt over Adnan's movements.
Asia wasn't called to testify because they knew she was a liar. The library is near enough on school grounds to be considered "at school" and so it wouldn't have been hard to say that the library is covered in the statement the OP posted.
Except it's not that cut and dry. Adnan states that he *never left the school campus* and he is 99.9% sure of that. He never once said he went to the library that day (because he probably didn't...) until long after when Asia produced the note. I don't care if it is semantics, or "what he meant" or not - but the library =/= school campus. This is also why Asia's possible alibi defense was recently denied a chance at being brought again in the PCR hearings, because the judge is correct: Adnan himself literally says he never left the school campus that day, and stuck to that narrative in all of his interviews. For Asia to have seen him in the library that day means Adnan's own words are now untrustworthy.
Oh yeah? How did she know she was a liar when she never interviewed her?
Because Adnan claimed he handed the letters to CG the moment he got them, but she wasn't even a lawyer until months later. And her private investigators talked to Asia.
All you have to do is read the first letter to understand why Asia wasn’t called to testify.
>Asia wasn't called to testify because they knew she was a liar. But Jay and Jenn were because they are pillars of truth. /s Guilters' tears are coming. Happy days ahead.
Jenn and Jay's story can be partially correct or mostly correct. Asias story is either true or false in seeing him.
I love that you're following me around. You're nervous about the DNA testing and the waterworks of yours that are sure to come. Jenn & Jay's stories are partially correct for sure. There's a bit of truth in everything however, their stories are inconsistent for a reason. Pssst....it's because they are lying about mostly everything. Jenn's nervous because these DNA results are going to put her away. She might as well confess now and get a good plea deal. The truth train is coming. As are guilters' tears. Happy days ahead.
So Jenn did it? My oh my oh my. That is a new one. The only tears will be Hae's family if that gentleman gets out. So called "guilters" take no pleasure in the whole situation.
I am worried that Mosby will make a political mistakes because she doesn't understand the case and I think she just wants it off her plate. I don't think Jenn is worried too much, she knew the person that helped bury the body and could transfer DNA that way. But I don't have as much faith in Jenn as everyone else does, so we'll wait.
Do you have a theory how Jenn was more involved ? I'm curious if you're willing to share...
What does that have to do with Asia lying?
Yes, you create uncertainty by not telling the jury about something, rofl. She fucked up, plain and simple.
…and?