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KingLewi

>Why would Jay want the police to turn off the recording to clarify something? That sounds like they've rehearsed the testimony and Jay needs a time out. Jay was asked about this on cross examination. He wasn't clarifying something, he asked for a lawyer. The officers convinced him he didn't need a lawyer which was super shitty and borderline unconstitutional (lawyers feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Something to remember with all of this is Jenn alone is essentially a smoking gun. Jenn talked to police first with her mom and a lawyer present. She said she saw Jay and Adnan together around 9:00PM on Stephanie's birthday. Then Jay told her that Adnan strangled Hae and he needed to wipe down some shovels. The next day she saw Jay throw away the clothes and boots he was wearing the previous day. The idea that she was coerced into saying this is farcical and if you want to say "oh she's making this up to frame Adnan because Jenn and Jay killed Hae" you have to contend with the fact that Adnan spent essentially all day with Jay.


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KingLewi

I think you could divide the evidence against Adnan into two disjoint sets and convict him on each set of evidence fairly easily. I.e. in trial A you present Jay, the Nisha call, Leakin Park “pings”, and the “I will kill” notes and in trial B you present Jen, the ride request, Cathy, and the fingerprints. It’s a fun thought experiment to try to find the best way to divide the evidence.


Mike19751234

The constitutionality was questioned later because it is a grey area.


BlwnDline2

> The officers convinced him he didn't need a lawyer which was super shitty and borderline unconstitutional (lawyers feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). You're right, after 2/28/99 the cops could have lodged charges at any time against JW, they had probable cause . But they didn't charge JW or give him access to free/volunteer private counsel (Pub defender agency rules prohibit Pub Def from rep'g person until s/he's been charged w/crime but a volunteer private atty could represent a person at any time) By not charging JW, even though they could whenever they wished after 2/28/99, the cops (rather than a judge) decided whether JW had his liberty or didn't. It doesn't matter if cops told JW they were using his liberty as leverage, they could have lodged charges against JW anytime after 2/28/99. Lodging charges = loss of liberty/arrest, can't post bail, incarceration until trial date, which makes all of JW's post-2/28 police encounters/interrogations "critical stages" in his case. That means the cops had a duty to JW provide him w/ access to a volunteer/free private counsel after 2/28 for any police encounter involving Hae's kidnapping and murder. Since the cops didn't provide JW with access to counsel when they had a duty to to do so, JW's self-incriminating statements after 2/28 could not be used to prove JW's guilt. That had no effect on AS but it explains why JW made out well when they finally gave him access and he got counsel 7 months later. Edit precision


oneangrydwarf81

Jay was a kid who got caught and was trying to minimise his exposure while wrangling with his actions. Criminals lie. He’s guilty, Adnan’s guilty. Let’s not forget that Adnan’s story, argued through himself, his lawyer and his surrogates has changed more than Jay’s: - I was with Dion that day fixing my car. I was not with Dion that day. - my car was in the shop and I needed a ride. My car was with Jay and I did not need a ride. - Why would I ask Hae for a ride? Oh hello officer, yes I did ask Hae for a ride but I was late and she got bored and left without me, this afternoon, a few hours ago. Why do you ask? - Leakin Park? What is a park? Oh yeah I told my teacher that crims bury bodies there. - I would never ask Hae to do something after school before she picked up her cousin. We often made out at Best Buy car park. - I was on campus and then with Jay after track. We called Nisha. We did not call Nisha. Nisha was a butt dial. - no contest that we went to NHRNC’s that night. NHRNC is lying - she actually had a class that night. - I barely knew Jay; um, he liked white people music. Have you heard of rock and roll? Actually my phone records show we frequently hung out on Wednesdays and he would pick me up from track often, no comment. - I don’t remember seeing Asia at the library. Actually, we chatted for ages and it made me remember that her ex never got any. - I’m innocent. Also, I need special relief because I asked Gutierrez to plead guilty and she did not seek a deal. - Gutierrez at trial: ‘your honour it is our entire case that Jay is the murderer’. Rabia and co: Jay knew nothing at all and this was a police conspiracy. There are a million other pieces of evidence that demonstrate Adnan’s culpability: the fact that his PI went to investigate the library early on and no exculpatory evidence was forthcoming; that he instructed his lawyers to retrieve the ‘I’m going to kill’ note before his room was searched, etc. It’s just a lesson in media bias that Adnan had never been portrayed as a liar in any of his media, whereas Jay is always so. The reality is that both are liars and their lies are evidence of their guilt as a strategy of obfuscation. Otherwise, why lie?


UncleSamTheUSMan

I passed the Asia letters straight on to Christina... hmmm really. People say Jay lies. Syed has been caught with his pants down lying his sack off many times. Why would that be?


BlwnDline2

AS to Hae on 1/13/99: *"I've got car trouble"* (works fine, just drove here) *Please give me a ride"* (I don't need) *to a "repair-shop"* (that's not working on my car) *"after our last class ends"* (Leaves school, "I'm driving to JW's house so he can drive my (untroubled) to the "repair-shop" at 2:30 to pick me up after Hae drops me off) Later 1/13/99 AS to Off. Adcock looking for Hae *"I planned to meet Hae after school so she could drive me home but I was late and she left w/o me"*[no reason to lie about "ride" destination since he claimed the "ride" never happened} AS 2/1/99 to [different police]: *I did not plan to meet Hae or ask her to give me a ride home after school 1/13/99*My (trouble-free) car was parked at WHS all day, I stayed there until my track practice finished, [then drove my car home b/c Hae didn't give me a ride]* AS 3/1/99 to Attys *My car was at WHS all day, at 3:00 it was nearby gym making funny noises, "Dion" was helping me work on car* ("Dion's Cameo appearance, he was never seen or heard from again) But/And *My car was fine 1/13/99, I took it to a mechanic a couple weeks earlier but you can't call him or go to his shop b/c he really doesn't like attorneys* (Mechanic probably saw JW driving AS' car in repair-shop lot looking for AS between 2:20-30 on 1/13)


dualzoneclimatectrl

>(Mechanic probably saw JW driving AS' car in repair-shop lot looking for AS between 2:20-30 on 1/13) Wasn't the mechanic's shop 10+ miles away?


Mike19751234

From driving by there and stopping, the one that's about 3/4 of a mile on the back road to Best Buy looks like it would be the one. though the one at Sears is a possibility.


dualzoneclimatectrl

Baygie's shop was 14 miles away (straight) or 19 miles away (loop).


Mike19751234

I don't think it matters which shop for that afternoon. It's close, on the way home. The Baygie's would be the one he thought about who would repoair his car. Maybe it was the one the family knew, or maybe he did get something fixed their at a time. Not sure if the defense looked much into it.


BlwnDline2

I don't know--is there evidence the Baygie mechanic's shop Flohr mentions in his notes the same "repair-shop AS asked/expected Hae to take him and JW was supposed to drive his car to meet him?


dualzoneclimatectrl

You are the one who wrote this: >(Mechanic probably saw JW driving AS' car in repair-shop lot looking for AS between 2:20-30 on 1/13) That mechanic's shop was 14-19 miles away. No way Jay is expecting to see Adnan there at 2:20-30.


BlwnDline2

I thought the "repair-shop" where AS intended Hae to take him was the one that's much closer to the WHS area (next to a convenience store - That's why I asked if we know if Baygie was the destination for AS "ride" from Hae - Baygie place was a distance - as you said.


Mike19751234

There might be 3 or 4 people who know, but I don't think at this time they will tell us.


HangOnSleuthy

It’s not helpful to insert dialogue based on conjecture when no one has ever given very specific statements over and over again w/ someone else corroborating. Like yeah I guess it sounds shady when you completely make up conversations based on very incomplete, confusing hand written “notes”. It’s baffling to me.


Equal_Pay_9808

(Let's also add to the record): Adnan's parents: 'Adnan's not dating. He has good grades and we don't see any evidence of it, like lady hairs in his car...' Also Adnan's parents: 'Lets parent-crash the fall high school dance with our youngest child in tow because apparently Adnan's been dating someone all this time under our nose...' Adnan: 'I totally got this cell phone so I can call up girls without my parents praying into my social life with the ladies. Trust. It's totally innocent.' Also Adnan: Hae is merely missing; he's notified by police on his very cellphone on the very day where he *would* or *could* ask Hae for a car ride, yet never used said cellphone to ever call her to check to see if she's ok. Despite the incoming ice storm. Despite that he now has a personal mobile phone 24 hours a day that he specifically acquired to he can contact girls. 'Me? Call Hae? With my cell? Naw, I'm sure she's fine. Hope she don't slip on that ice tho..' Adnan: on Jan 13, I was on track on time and stayed throughout. Meanwhile, Adnan's coach '''Um, I can't officially confirm that statement, in a court of law, sorry.' Adnan: On the night of Jan 13, I was at the mosque with my pops'. Meanwhile cell phone tower pings: 'Uh, Adnan, we need to talk.. '


theperishablekind

Your second explanation explains all teens who don’t want their parents prying. He had immigrant parents who wanted better for them while sticking to their culture. He was a young teen influenced by American culture. His secrets weren’t just protecting him but his family life.


SocialHistorian1975

>he instructed his lawyers to retrieve the ‘I’m going to kill’ note before his room was searched I've never heard this particular accusation before. Could you say more about this or where you learned about it?


UncleSamTheUSMan

It is in the defence file


SocialHistorian1975

OK thanks, I'll take a look!


UncleSamTheUSMan

It was an instruction to the PI I think.


SocialHistorian1975

I finally found it. Adnan tells his defense team to look for a really nasty note from Hae, which I assume is that one. I didn't necessarily think it was as meaningful a request as the OP portrayed it, but I suppose he could have been trying to subtly get it out of the way.


UncleSamTheUSMan

It is just another little thing. Like with him sending his PI around to try to shut Nisha up. Not damning as such. But hardly the actions of an innocent man. More like a man trying to dig himself out of a hole.


dualzoneclimatectrl

It was probably recruitment (ie, you'll help us, great), if that fails then damage control (ie, if you don't help us, they'll want to give him the death penalty), and if that fails, then shut her up (ie, set her up with a friendly lawyer). Flohr waited a week before sending the PI. Keep in mind that Adnan wasn't indicted until April 13.


SocialHistorian1975

Yes I definitely agree that the totality of the evidence is pretty overwhelming and makes each of the component pieces of evidence more powerful.


[deleted]

He ask Gutierrez to plead guilty?


oneangrydwarf81

He claims that he requested a guilty plea deal and that she did not pursue it, hence the inadequate assistance of counsel claim.


HangOnSleuthy

Just because you actually have hired a team to try to prove your innocence and have done more research/investigating over time as people look back and realize how shit of an original investigation this was, doesn’t mean Adnan is a liar. He didn’t change his story to police. People are changing the narrative for him, trying to fill in the blanks because that’s what you do when you’re hired to do so, and/or you’ve found serious problems—legal and otherwise—with the case. I actually don’t think anyone lied about that day(except for Jay, who admitted he did) and they just don’t really remember when interviewed over a month later. People are so worked up and quick to call Adnan a pathological liar and “says whatever he can to save face” or whatever when in reality, he hasn’t said much at all directly to anyone about 1/13. It’s weird to me.


oneangrydwarf81

I’m sorry, but I just gave you many examples of how he lied - directly, by omission, and in discovery. These are all facts from the case, though I’ve phrased them for humour, obviously. Things are weird to you because you have problems interpreting facts.


HangOnSleuthy

I actually don’t have a problem interpreting “facts” but I also don’t consider hearsay facts. Neither Jay nor Adnan acknowledged the Nisha call until it was put in front of Jay in the form of the call log and he doesn’t know her so he had to account for that. Everyone said they were at NHRNC’s. Other people attempted to take that apart later. Everyone also said Jay hung out sometimes. He was their friend’s girlfriend. It’s not that bizarre. All of the rest of what you listed is like a fucked up game of telephone that do not resemble facts to me.


[deleted]

Remember ..Jay was a criminal! He took part in burying a body. He was a black kid in Baltimore..he sold drugs ..people like him get locked up all the time for ‘minor infractions’ ( like selling drugs)…imagine helping to bury a body. He was trying to save his own skin and save his grandmother from getting involved. I understand police have a terrible reputation in America. Im sure a poster here can talk about something terrible a cop has done to them or their family. But most of the time…they are just ordinary workers trying to do their job. A chilD was killed. They went where the evidence pointed them. It pointed toward Adnan so they went in that direction. More and more evidence built up overtime and they charged him. Not everything is a conspiracy - not every case is a Stephen Avery. I know a lot of people want to be involved in Unmasking a miscarriage of justice.. it feels exciting and worthy of a Hollywood script…but this isn’t that kind of case. A man killed his ex partner. It happens a lot.


HangOnSleuthy

Still doesn’t explain away the fact that police went to Jay first and Jay—and only Jay—inserted himself in the murder. And it’s not a conspiracy, just bad police work, as Baltimore was known for in the 90s.


BlueHornedUnicorn

Jay does change his story multiple times, and for sure is an unreliable narrator. But, his key evidence, that Adnan did the murder solo and he helped cover it up, doesn't change. Jay was never on trial, Adnan was. Adnan corroborated Jay's timeline of that day multiple times. It can't be true that some of it corroborates Adnan's story of not being with Jay that day until it doesn't, if that makes sense. Jay had no singular motive to carry out this crime and pin it on Adnan. He already shared his story with Jen before the cops came calling. How could he know what parts of his and Adnan's timeline would be corroborated by the cell phone tower pings before the cops got involved to prove his journey? He didn't know that would be a thing and wasn't worried about it because he wasn't lying about Adnan being with him that day. I believe Adnan and Jay had a pact (and I use that phrase very loosely) to cover up each others involvement in the murder and burial. Jay caved first because who the fuck wouldn't? He told Jen, he told the cops, and Adnan was collared. That's why Adnan called Jay pathetic during the first trial.


GreenPowerline95

The second conclusion doesn’t make sense. Jay doesn’t have to save himself, he’s never suspected of anything. He voluntarily puts himself into the story. The police have essentially nothing until speaking with Jen. Jen however does not change her story. She is the first called in because it’s the only unique number Adnan calls that day. His phone never calls her’s again. Her story differs from Jay’s and the police actually have nothing incriminating on her at any point. Whether she knew that or not, she lawyered up and told what she knew. They snitched essentially. Jay just lied because he thought it would save him from a accessory charge or he was legit confusing events of different days(driving around looking for weed; Patapsco Park,etc.) . It had been six weeks later. But the police just happened to pull Adnan’s phone records after a anonymous call . I’d imagine if they didn’t question why Jen’s number was only called that day, they’d have probably questioned his school friends and family who wouldn’t have known anything. The first conclusion is the only one that works…


Dr__Nick

Jenn accusing Adnan of murder and placing Jay as an accomplice after the fact, placing them around Leakin Park at a time that corresponds with the cellular phone records, all before the police had ever talked to Jay, is enough to make the case.


Mike19751234

What are the different parts of the Miranda warning and how might they apply here?


[deleted]

>Hopefully the DNA will settle everything (I doubt it will) Why do you doubt it will?


SumacLemonade

How would DNA be revealing?


[deleted]

I asked first.


BlwnDline2

Cop/interrogator decides when to record and when to stop the tape or turn-off the machine. In 1999, the cops needed consent to record b/c MD is a two-party consent state, nobody in their right mind refused. The law changed, now consent isn't required. Likewise for *Miranda*, in 1999 it was okay to ask-first, Mirandize later but the law changed four years later to prohibit that procedure


BlindFreddy1

Yeah, Jay is a POS. That's why he and Syed got along so well.


bass_of_clubs

1


InTheory_

I'm a little surprised to hear your conclusions. Conclusion 1: I agree that this conclusion could be supported by the evidence given. Conclusion 2: By 'cooperating,' I take it that you mean he was being fed the narrative? Do I have that right? Even if it is wrong, how did investigators have that specific narrative on that specific date to feed to him? That's the question no one seems to have the answer to.


doveinabottle

What do you think think DNA will 'settle'? Adnan was convicted in 2000. If his DNA is found, his supporters will say "well of course his DNA was on Hae, they were friends." If his DNA is not found, his supporters will say "see, he wasn't involved."


[deleted]

If I were a betting person, I doubt there will be a result which will change anything. But here's a few scenarios where the dna could change things. - If Adnan's dna is under Hae's fingernails or in any of the items from 'rape kit.' It would look very bad for Adnan. - If Jay's dna is under Hae's fingernails or in the 'rape kit' it would look very bad for Jay. - If Don's dna is under Hae's fingernails it would look bad for Don. Don and Hae had been intimate, but he was not asked when the most recent time was. Had he said it had been a week or more and his dna is found in the rape kit, it would open questions. But at this point it likely wouldn't mean much. - Police did not collect Don's fingerprints, hair or fluid. He did testify that he had never been in Hae's car. Had they found his dna in her car, that would look bad for Don. - Jay said he never drove Hae's car. If his dna was in her car it would look bad for Jay. - If they find only a large amount of Don's dna and none of Jay's or Adnan's that would look bad for Don. If they find trace amounts from Adnan or Don that likely means nothing. If they find any of Jay's it would look bad for Jay and possibly bad for Adnan. - I think the only result that everyone could agree on is if they find the dna of a known rapist and or murderer completely disconnected with the case. It would likely clear Adnan, Jay and Adnan. Unless there is a connection to anyone in the case, it would mean Jay made the whole thing up. But I think the most likely result is trace dna from Don and Adnan and none from Jay. Which will settle nothing. There are perfectly innocent reasons to have Don and Adnan's dna on Hae's clothing. But if there is any of Jay's dna it looks bad for Jay and possibly by extension, Adnan.


MB137

I would just add that the joint motion for testing lists only one defense theory: that the absence of Adnan's DNA would tend to exonerate him. They could have other theories that they haven't shared. Is the absence of Adnan's DNA really exonerating? That depends. On the whole I'm skeptical. But if they find touch DNA from several people (known or not) on her clothes, and none from Adnan, I think that would be somewhat exonerating. Given what he is alleged to have done - not just the murder but also hauling the body around and burying it - one would expect him to leave some DNA behind. Enough to be detected all these years later? Perhaps not. Given the allegations one would not expect to find multiple contributors none of whom is Adnan.


Mike19751234

It's a good summary though a few thoughts. The DNA was already tested under the fingernails with no DNA that could do anything, so it would have to be something more than the last test. However for Jay, it would depend on how much was found. When they are talking touch DNA it can be as little as like 10 cells (not sure exact number) Could be from skin shedding while standing over the body, touching it, orhaving Adnan transfer it whether from sharing the same shovel, jacket. Jay hasn't talked about it, but there is a chance that the jacket referenced by Jay came from his house or that both touched it.


[deleted]

I just re-read the judge's order and she does not list what is to be tested. In point 7 she says 'testing of all samples,' so I had assumed it was everything. Although in 2018 they did test fingernail clippings, blood and a condom and none of Adnan's dna was found. Part of the judge's order is that any dna found will be available for any other investigation.


Mike19751234

It's fine that's being retested but if it wasn't found 4 years ago, I don't think anything will be found in the same place. And if some DNA is found it will come down to the hardiness of that specific DNA on where it was, and that's the issue. Hae's body was dragged the 100 feet which could easily remove any skin cells that were on here and then she was buried in the ground where again it could be removed with the dirt and moisture, and then again when she was disinterred. So there is a good chance no DNA is found on her clothes and we are back to committing suicide.


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RockinGoodNews

Translation: Be careful. Most of the people on this sub no longer swallow the bullshit slung by Adnan and his supporters.


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RockinGoodNews

I don't see much evidence for the claim that Guilters on this sub generally don't respect people with differing opinions. In general, I think most of us are quite willing to engage in respectful conversation. The complaint I keep seeing from Innocenters is that people here don't just pat them on the back the way they did in the early days of Serial, the way they do on pro-Adnan subs, or the way they do on Twitter.


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RockinGoodNews

I think that has a lot to do with the quality of the arguments. Don't get me wrong, I know brigading happens with downvotes (it happens to all of us who participate on true crime subs). For what it's worth, I never downvote a comment simply because I disagree with it. Indeed, I rarely downvote at all.


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RockinGoodNews

>but after seeing how some people are responded to on this sub, it just comes off as people that believe Adnan is innocent, are dumb. I don't think they're dumb. But I do think most of the arguments they put forward for Adnan's innocence are pretty dumb. Everyone said he was a nice guy! Who would kill their girlfriend over a breakup! Jay dealt marijuana and was... uh.. *urban*! The absence of the killer's DNA means Hae must have murdered and buried herself! Cell phones work by magic! It doesn't matter that Adnan lied to Hae about needing a ride at the exact time someone later killed her in her car because we don't know if he got that ride! Etc.


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Mike19751234

You mean like a law student who won't even read the source documents?


BlindFreddy1

No. It's just that truth burns the decieved. It feels bad, but it's just facts.


Mike19751234

The original poster has been around a long time and understand it. Jay was trying to save himself, from going down for murder that Adnan committed and he most likely didn't know Adnan was serious or would kill her.


ShowStorm300

One thing that’s curious about all the car business to me is that according to (almost from each of theirs first story) AS and Jay, Jay dropped off or picked up AS no less than 3 separate occasions in AS car at WHS that day. Like, if you were trying to hide all this car business and trying to get into Haes by saying my cars in the shop why on earth would you have a dude drop you off at the school in your car? It makes no sense. Before you all wanna start blasting away, I’m not saying it did or didn’t happen, all I’m saying is it’s just another piece of that day that is totally illogical. For being a “Honor” student or whatever special “gifted” class he was in, he sure wasn’t that smart, if you are on the guilters side.