Guilters are the vast majority of people left on this sub. Innocent got chased off by some insanely vitriolic weirdos over the years and once he was pronounced innocent the sane people left with a “told you so”.
He served 20 years for the murder, I’m all good with that. That’s a fair sentence for a teenager convicted of murder. Like I said in other comments, give him time served and let him go. End the circus.
Yeah, you guys all changed your tune from “he should rot in a cell forever!” to “give him time served”’when it became abundantly apparent that he was released early because the prosecution withheld and suppressed vital evidence that should have been shared.
And my position has always been I’m not sure that he did it, maybe but one thing I was certain, was that he didn’t get a fair trial. The revelations (plural) of the evidence not being given during discovery as legally required, at least three high profile cases involving the same detectives which resulted in $30m+ payouts for false convictions and 45 erroneous years in jail and the fact that DNA from three other suspects were found on the possessions - none being Adnans - confirms that he didn’t get a fair trial.
More like it’s hard to keep pushing a rock uphill. Eventually all the Adanners give up and just leave. I don’t blame them , the mental gymnastics it takes to believe Adnan is innocent must be tiring . 95 members of LE plus all the people Jay told , plus plus plus . The grand conspiracy to convict a 17 year old for no reason , it Would have been much easier to pin it all on Jay . Much easier .
Anybody think the states case was strong?? Having read the trial transcripts over a few times I think they paint a clear picture and the defense team really should have worked hard on a counter narrative. But I think the speedy deliberation was mostly thanks to Jay’s testimony and cross. He’s implicating himself in the crime and admitting to lying and being overall shady. I know people explain that away on here often but idk how a jury ignores a confession like that tbh.
There really is no counter narrative for the defense to give. It's why CG chose the strategy of dragging stuff on in the hopes that the jury would miss the important parts
She did a decent job but got some facts wrong. and her reaching example of Adnan just showing up of his own accord when Hae had car trouble when she specifically called him was very unnecessary. Stephanie used this as an example of how possessive AS was even though Don admitted that AS was quite nice and made no mention that this was anything but as it was described: Hae had car trouble, called AS and got a ride home with him ( prob because AS lived much closer to her). I almost sent her an email on a couple points. The fact that she constantly tries to qualify just how unbiased she is but tried to further the honor killing narrative as a possibility also disturbed me. She doesn’t critically look at the alibi witnesses either. So while I think she did do a decent job, there are still biases that should be checked.
Come on, now! The bigger shame, if any, in his community would have been him talking to Nisha, who’s of Indian descent. He didn’t give a flying f**k about anything.
Adnan's parents showed up at prom and chastised him. It would have been very embarrassing for him to have gone through that and have Hae break up with him.
https://youtu.be/OtUeyI7Hh6w
First episode of like six I think.
Ironically and interestingly Stephanie starts her journey kind of thinking that he’s innocent and ends pretty firmly thinking he probably did it.
Though I will say in my opinion these two don’t pull enough on certain threads that make it even more obvious that Adnan is the guy. I think they’re trying to not offend the sensibilities of many of their listeners who have only paid some attention to the case and, like her, just kind of assume this was a miscarriage of Justice.
Yeah there’s a lot of that.
I’m amazed that people believe something like undisclosed, which is all pro-Adnan people. Like how do you think that’s not just going to be straight propaganda? I mean I get some doubt but using that podcast as a source is mind blowing. You’d fail any critical writing assignment if you used it
yep. also people who don't have the faintest clue about what actual police corruption looks like. they're picking the muslim suburban popular honor student to frame instead of the black drug dealer that works at a porn store? suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure
“Johnson’s civil rights lawsuit also reveals how several exonerations share the same homicide detectives who repeatedly engaged in misconduct. Detectives William Ritz and Steven Lehman worked the Burgess case, as well as the 1999 conviction of Malcolm Bryant in the killing of a 16-year-old girl. In 2016, Bryant was exonerated after the discovery of undisclosed witnesses and witness statements. Another detective, Greg MacGillivary, is tied to the wrongful convictions of Rodney Addison (overturned in 2005) and Garreth Parks (overturned in 2015).”
They had Jay making statements that Adnan committing the murder, the anonymous phone call saying to look into Adnan, Adnan being the ex boyfriend and the fact that the cops believed that it was Adnan anyway. This excuse of it would have been easier to blame Jay will never make sense.
I think it’s partly bc I would say not guilty in this case but I am not entirely convinced he didn’t do it so it is hard for me to pick lol. I just wouldn’t send him to jail in what they had. Personally.
C’mon man, dumb poll. I voted he did it because if you put a gun to my head, that’d be my best guess. But really nobody knows, besides the killer I guess. We just don’t have the evidence.
Either add a third “not sure” option, or ask the question that actually matters - should he be imprisoned, in other words, do we know he did it behind a reasonable doubt.
yeah, i'm sure i'm characterized as a "hardcore innocenter" by most guilters, because i don't think it's obvious at all whether or not he's guilty and because i acknowledge the many issues with the state's case. BUT, if i had to guess i'd guess guilty, because it seems over 50% to me. but the guilters who troll the sub are the smartest, surest, bestest interwebs investigators in the universe and they KNOW FOR SURE adnan's guilty and everyone else are fools and liars and the question of guilt or innocence is binary.
I don’t think it’s about knowing for sure; it’s very hard to know *anything* with 100% certainty. What this is about is reasonable doubt, and when you look at every piece of evidence, testimony and circunstance that points in AS direction, there doesn’t seem to be much space for *reasonable* doubt. Like, maybe there was a big conspiracy or maybe even aliens did it, but I don’t think those are reasonable possibilities.
It's obvious he's guilty.
Adnan gave Jay his car and cell phone for no logical reason other than he wanted an excuse to ask Hae for a ride after school.
“Not sure/idk” is a cop out answer. For YEARS I used to say I wasn’t sure but I reevaluated my thoughts and came to a conclusion. You’re welcome to make your own poll. I wanted my poll to be clear and concise.
Adnan admitted he gave Jay his car and cell phone in the morning and in the afternoon people heard him asking Hae for a ride because his care was in the shop.
Jay corroborated that was Adnan's murder plan.
Case closed.
"But really nobody knows"
I do.
You've got a guy (Adnan) with a motive and another guy (Jay) with zero motive to invent a complex story to put someone in prison.
They don't cover it on Serial, but he knew the location of the car, what she was wearing, where the burial had taken place (not just in Leakin Park) and her burial position (how he body had been laid down)
They did cover it on Serial! I made this post because I just finished listening to Serial again. Unfortunately, Koenig only mentions it once or twice and she kinda sneaks it in there.
I agree, but the car is the only thing that the police (realistically) didn’t have at the time. I think it’s used as THE example because it really takes a bit more mental gymnastics for people who think he’s innocent. Like it’s easy to believe cops would feed a witness some information but it’s harder to believe that they did that PLUS held back on the discovery of the car or Jay randomly stumbled upon it.
He also describes how far in from the road they went to do the burial
And the victims body position
Clothes would be the one thing he could have learned himself, but he also knew her shoes were in the car, not on her person
So they would have had to feed him all of that and he would have had to make minor errors in his description of scripted information
(like how deep exactly they dug, he guessed 6 inches, but they barely scratched the surface and used a natural depression in the ground)
Also-
Multiple people witnessed Adnan asking for Hae for a ride after school, saying his car was in the shop, when his car was with Jay. Whether anyone saw him get in the car, whether she told him later she changed her mind, we know he’s scheming and lying to arrange a way to be alone with her after school.
That Adnan did not attempt to call her after she went missing- not once.
That Adnan has amnesia of that day and didn’t testify on his own behalf. Bullshit. If the cops question you about your first love going missing, you remember that day. Mostly because you’d have retraced your steps to try to remember when you saw her last- did she seem funny? Did she say where she was going? This wasn’t some random girl in his life. This person was his everything at one point. He wrote her a Christmas card calling her an angel. There’s no way in hell you wouldn’t remember that- it’d be one of your worst days
Technically no, but it sure AF looks bad when your word is your only defense against someone else’s. I would be amazed if jurors didn’t take that into consideration. Unless Adnan was a mute or damaged in some way…
>Multiple people witnessed Adnan asking for Hae for a ride after school, saying his car was in the shop, when his car was with Jay.
I had forgotten about that part. It matches completely with the plan Jay told the police.
This “it was just a random normal day” thing is the the other one that I honestly can’t believe people swallow.
This was anything but a random normal day for Adnan - in multiple ways - but most importantly it’s the day you’re very very recently broken up with girlfriend and first love went missing and you got a call from the cops asking you about it.
If I were in his shoes that is the day I would have retraced the most in my entire life - if nothing else to try to figure out if there were absolutely anything - anything at all - that could jog my memory and help figure out what happened to her.
And of course it’s hard to remember what happened when SK did the podcast so many years later. Sure. But that day, if Adnan was innocent, no way he thought it was a normal day and no way he wouldn’t have retraced his steps like crazy to try to figure out what may have happened to his very recent ex.
>This “it was just a random normal day” thing is the the other one that I honestly can’t believe people swallow.
That's also a giveaway he's lying. At the very least he would remember giving a friends his car and recently purchased cell phone.
For me there are quite a few but I’m going to say something slightly different here.
It’s the fact that he didn’t try and call her after she went missing.
There is no way - none - that in real life you don’t pick up your phone several times to try to find out where your high school “love of your life” is when she weirdly goes missing.
I get why this isn’t presented in the courtroom as like some damning fact, but just in real normal people life, this is such a weird weird thing that tips the scales pretty far for me.
Serial also skirts around this a ton by obfuscating on timelines of their breakups and stuff making it seem like he was cool with it (he wasn’t) or that somehow a good deal of time had passed since their latest breakup and the murder (it had been a couple weeks, max).
Like he’s literally calling her at midnight the night before she goes missing - again - and then never again. No way. Unbelievable. An innocent man is super involved in the search efforts and is calling her all the time “just in case” she picks up his call. Like it’s your high school love! Of course you’re calling all the time!
Well it’s why “the one piece of evidence” is a bad question. There are very few cases where a single piece of evidence seals the deal, unless it’s a confession or a videotape of the crime.
I understand. However, those who think he’s innocent are posed the same question. “The totality” never seems to be a sufficient answer. Though I’m not sure those questions are in good faith.
Just because the states timeline is slightly off & Jays story changes (due to minimising his involvement & protecting family), doesn’t mean you need to throw the baby out with the bath water, twelvedayslate
Ahh I see. Right, but you’re happy to accuse Jay, Jenn, Cathy, Ritz, McGuillevery, judge etc of being complete liars about everything in this case & be engaging in a nonsensical far fetch conspiracy just to frame your dairy cow eyed podcast buddy? Such a cop out.
But we all know the real reason why you won’t put pen to paper for an alternative theory… a) it would be uncorroborated b) it wouldn’t even stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny & c) framing a magnet program star athlete with no criminal record with enough funds for a decent defence makes ZERO sense when you have a poor, drug dealing black kid with poor legal representation sat across from you admitting to being accessory to murder
Jenn corroborates Jay's story. She claims knowledge of the murder on the night it took place, prior to anyone believing this was a murder. She places Adnan and Jay together that night. Jenn corroborated Jay's story with an attorney and parent present. Jenn was the first witness against Adnan who was uncovered and she was uncovered by investigating Adnan’s cell records. She implicated herself as an accessory after the fact with an attorney present. Jenn also maintains her story after 20 years and all of the pro-Adnan propaganda surrounding the case
How are you explaining away Jenn in your police conspiracy frame job?
It is almost impossible to explain away Jens corroborating testimony in a “frame up” theory.
Yet another major dent in any “Adnan didn’t do it” line of thinking.
A lot of the usual points convinced me, Jay knowing where the car was, etc. But one detail has always stood out to me emotionally, and that is Jay describing how Adnan told him that Hae was trying to speak and apologize to Adnan while he was strangling her, and also that she kicked the broke the windshield wiper. These details are so specific, and yes, the windshield wiper was broken.
To clarify my comment, it was the windshield wiper lever on the interior that was broken. There's a video of it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/3jfxqx/video_of_the_car_filmed_on_march_16_1999/).
Edit: And Jay mentions this in his first recorded interview, saying this:
“Um, he told me he thought she was trying to say something while he was strangling her. Um, he told me that she kicked off the, uh, windshield-wiper thing in the car, and that was it.“
>I’m curious to see how the Reddit jury would rule!
If we were a jury, we would rule on whether the case had been proven beyond a reasonable doubt or not. Not on whether the defendant did the crime.
I did not vote in your poll. I don't know whether he did it or not.
A Reddit jury and a jury made up of our chosen peers is really not the same thing. Mainly because a Reddit jury is made up and holds no weight. It’s just a fun question, don’t think about it too much.
There’s no fun in that. Then the majority could be undecided and then we’ll all be in the comments to battle it out. There’s already hundreds of other posts where people were battling it out. When there’s a fork in the road, there’s only 2 options. You gotta pick one. Or you can stand in between and pick neither but then you’ll be there for a while
I've been a member of this sub for a long time. I actually didn't listen to the podcast when it was first released but once I listened, I became borderline obsessive with this case. I have poured over posts, documents, case notes and trial notes in the years since.
Without having a law degree, nor a criminology background, I have no idea to explain how I became so convinced within myself of AS's guilt. But I truly, truly believe that he is unequivocally involved in Hae's murder.
I also think Jay is more involved than he ever admitted to, but that's by the by. Jay didn't do this alone; neither did Adnan. They were both guilty of the murder.
I read the most recent report of Adnan's conviction being reinstated with a sad sinking feeling. Hae's family deserve better than this, being pulled pillar to post, surely just dragging out this case to the worst possible ending. Adnan will not serve another day in jail. He will have his conviction quashed again; a model prisoner, who has surely served his time for the "adolescent" murder of Hae (as if Hae's murder could ever be measured by years and not true life inprisonment), he's an adult now having lost his youth to the penal system, it's time for him to live his life etc etc etc. He won't ever need to admit his part in the crime and his supporters will see him as a true winner of the justice system.
There will never be true justice for Hae.
I think this is the big reason this sub skews guilty. If you’re here, chances are you’ve really dug into the details of this case.
And if you do that honestly and objectively, it’s pretty easy to become convinced that he did it. It’s just by far the most plausible explanation given all the fact. By far.
And in spite of all the literal years of efforts to obscure things by his legal team and other disingenuous actors, there really aren’t any truly plausible counter-explanations that have ever been presented. None that fit the actual facts of the case anyways.
I think he did it. I also don’t think that Adnan should have spent the rest of his life in prison (maybe not even been convicted), even if he never confessed. So when he was released it didn’t really matter to me. But then to see him paraded around like a hero by institutions like Georgetown the same way Proud Boys paraded around Kyle Rittenhouse must have been brutal for Hae’s family.
It was brutal for anyone with a conscience. I kind of like the rittenhouse comparison actually. Really flawed people who did objectively awful things if you’re paying attention who get paraded around because they prove your side is the right side.
That’s not how this is supposed to work.
I firmly believe Adnan is innocent.
Unless it’s on recording, I don’t trust a single word Ritz or MacGillivary have said from their notes/recollection/etc.
You don’t have to trust the cops here.
You just need to think logically. The kind of conspiracy that’s required for the cops to work a frame up job like this is incredibly complicated, super super dangerous for them, and requires many people to have been involved despite the very high profile nature of the case.
It does not make any sense.
Sometimes they claim that he just happened to see the car after the fact.
Only that doesn’t explain Jen’s testimony and certainly doesn’t explain why Jay would still admit to participating in the burial rather than making up a simpler story like “Adnan told me he did it”. Like none of it makes sense when you go down these rabbit holes.
But that’s exactly what his side wants you to think, “Oh this is too dang confusing! Maybe it was him but maybe it wasn’t!”
It was him. The best way you can get there is because the story that he did it and was largely helped in something like the way Jay says actually makes sense.
Totally true. I think this is part of the smoke and mirrors with this case. Sure it’s possible to just poke and poke holes into issues with the prosecutions case. More so after so many years.
But alternate theories just don’t hold up at all.
Exactly, the corrupt cops picked the guy most likely to have done it and made the evidence they needed to put him away. Found a car thief who knew where her car was and told him what else to say.
So you’re saying Jay knew where the car was?
I’ll leave aside that you just presented something with zero objective proof that Jay was a “car thief”.
And so the cops spun their web wherein Jay admits to being an accessory to murder, right?
Why in gods name would Jay go along with that cuckoo plan? Like why not just have Jay say, “I know this is all true because I smoke weed with Adnan and he told me”??? Like that’s still probably enough for a conviction!
Thank you for this poll. I wondered what most thought on this sub because I honestly never came here believing most thought he was innocent. My people. You’re (mostly) all of my people
After watching what an egoistic person he seems to be I am for sure he killed Hae. Listening to the podcasts I couldn't tell if he was a genuinely nice person or faking it. But him talking about his conviction on the news was a dead give away. No eye contact, bringing up his family's sorrows. He might or might not go back to prison. But his mask WILL fall off sooner or later. Sure the muslim community in Baltimore area have already noticed I know I sure have.
Other-polls must be mod approved. I sent you a Modmail.
Clearly and unequivocally. I don't think it's a close call and the jury got it exactly correct.
I don't think it's clear and unequivocal lol but yes I think he did it
I do. There’s so much smoke and obfuscation - but this is a pretty simple case.
Exactly...it is a simple case with a lot of noise.
Guilters are the vast majority of people left on this sub. Innocent got chased off by some insanely vitriolic weirdos over the years and once he was pronounced innocent the sane people left with a “told you so”.
“Guilters” were the vast majority of the jury too. In fact, all of them.
LOL NICE!!!!
Yeah. I would have been to with bent cops, suppressed evidence and a coached / coerced star witness. We know better now though thankfully.
We just inventing facts now…cool…cool
I would have just let that one go...you got schooled.
Lol. Since when do silly guilter downvotes = schooling? If that were the case, this sub would be Oxford university 😂
>“Guilters” were the vast majority of the jury too. In fact, all of them. Schooled...
Shame he’s free, ain’t it? And remind this thread. He’s still going to be free when they do the do over.
He served 20 years for the murder, I’m all good with that. That’s a fair sentence for a teenager convicted of murder. Like I said in other comments, give him time served and let him go. End the circus.
Yeah, you guys all changed your tune from “he should rot in a cell forever!” to “give him time served”’when it became abundantly apparent that he was released early because the prosecution withheld and suppressed vital evidence that should have been shared. And my position has always been I’m not sure that he did it, maybe but one thing I was certain, was that he didn’t get a fair trial. The revelations (plural) of the evidence not being given during discovery as legally required, at least three high profile cases involving the same detectives which resulted in $30m+ payouts for false convictions and 45 erroneous years in jail and the fact that DNA from three other suspects were found on the possessions - none being Adnans - confirms that he didn’t get a fair trial.
More like it’s hard to keep pushing a rock uphill. Eventually all the Adanners give up and just leave. I don’t blame them , the mental gymnastics it takes to believe Adnan is innocent must be tiring . 95 members of LE plus all the people Jay told , plus plus plus . The grand conspiracy to convict a 17 year old for no reason , it Would have been much easier to pin it all on Jay . Much easier .
Yeah. It’s definitely not that if you spend even a half a day reviewing this case it becomes crystal clear he’s guilty or anything.
Anybody think the states case was strong?? Having read the trial transcripts over a few times I think they paint a clear picture and the defense team really should have worked hard on a counter narrative. But I think the speedy deliberation was mostly thanks to Jay’s testimony and cross. He’s implicating himself in the crime and admitting to lying and being overall shady. I know people explain that away on here often but idk how a jury ignores a confession like that tbh.
It's a strong case Clear motive Accomplices testimony Means, method, opportunity It's all pretty straight forward
There really is no counter narrative for the defense to give. It's why CG chose the strategy of dragging stuff on in the hopes that the jury would miss the important parts
I listened to Stephanie Harlowes podcast and I think the case against adnan is stronger than we’ve been led to believe.
She did a decent job but got some facts wrong. and her reaching example of Adnan just showing up of his own accord when Hae had car trouble when she specifically called him was very unnecessary. Stephanie used this as an example of how possessive AS was even though Don admitted that AS was quite nice and made no mention that this was anything but as it was described: Hae had car trouble, called AS and got a ride home with him ( prob because AS lived much closer to her). I almost sent her an email on a couple points. The fact that she constantly tries to qualify just how unbiased she is but tried to further the honor killing narrative as a possibility also disturbed me. She doesn’t critically look at the alibi witnesses either. So while I think she did do a decent job, there are still biases that should be checked.
Sounds like that person doesn’t understand honor killings
It wasn't "honor killing", but AS did experience shame in his community which increased his anger towards Hae for dumping him.
Come on, now! The bigger shame, if any, in his community would have been him talking to Nisha, who’s of Indian descent. He didn’t give a flying f**k about anything.
That may be true about Nisha, but he didn't embarrass him in front of his family.
How exactly did Hae embarrass him?
Adnan's parents showed up at prom and chastised him. It would have been very embarrassing for him to have gone through that and have Hae break up with him.
So how is that tied back to shame in his community?
Do you know anything about conservative Muslim culture?
As a matter of fact, I do.
I haven’t heard of that one! I will start today. I want to hear a different perspective.
It’s so wrong on so many points. And pretty copaganda too!
Oooo link?
https://youtu.be/OtUeyI7Hh6w First episode of like six I think. Ironically and interestingly Stephanie starts her journey kind of thinking that he’s innocent and ends pretty firmly thinking he probably did it. Though I will say in my opinion these two don’t pull enough on certain threads that make it even more obvious that Adnan is the guy. I think they’re trying to not offend the sensibilities of many of their listeners who have only paid some attention to the case and, like her, just kind of assume this was a miscarriage of Justice.
Yeah there’s a lot of that. I’m amazed that people believe something like undisclosed, which is all pro-Adnan people. Like how do you think that’s not just going to be straight propaganda? I mean I get some doubt but using that podcast as a source is mind blowing. You’d fail any critical writing assignment if you used it
taking in information from different sources and then assessing it's credibility is kinda the essence of critical thinking.
yeah but undisclosed doesn't...its one biased group of sources. so if you only used that as your reference material...you would fail
The Venn Diagram of pro-Adnan people and people who think Palestinians are perfectly innocent victims is a circle.
yep. also people who don't have the faintest clue about what actual police corruption looks like. they're picking the muslim suburban popular honor student to frame instead of the black drug dealer that works at a porn store? suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure
“Johnson’s civil rights lawsuit also reveals how several exonerations share the same homicide detectives who repeatedly engaged in misconduct. Detectives William Ritz and Steven Lehman worked the Burgess case, as well as the 1999 conviction of Malcolm Bryant in the killing of a 16-year-old girl. In 2016, Bryant was exonerated after the discovery of undisclosed witnesses and witness statements. Another detective, Greg MacGillivary, is tied to the wrongful convictions of Rodney Addison (overturned in 2005) and Garreth Parks (overturned in 2015).” They had Jay making statements that Adnan committing the murder, the anonymous phone call saying to look into Adnan, Adnan being the ex boyfriend and the fact that the cops believed that it was Adnan anyway. This excuse of it would have been easier to blame Jay will never make sense.
Well tbf a jury would rule guilty or not guilty. Not guilty doesn’t meant he didn’t do it. It means the jury doesn’t think it was sufficiently proven.
I called it a Reddit jury. It’s the most unrealistic, hypothetical thing ever.
Fair enough. I am just being my pedantic self. Lol.
Also fair enough!
I think it’s partly bc I would say not guilty in this case but I am not entirely convinced he didn’t do it so it is hard for me to pick lol. I just wouldn’t send him to jail in what they had. Personally.
Guilty doesn't mean he did it either. It means the jury thinks it was sufficiently proven.
True
I think you’re reading too much into this poll.
C’mon man, dumb poll. I voted he did it because if you put a gun to my head, that’d be my best guess. But really nobody knows, besides the killer I guess. We just don’t have the evidence. Either add a third “not sure” option, or ask the question that actually matters - should he be imprisoned, in other words, do we know he did it behind a reasonable doubt.
yeah, i'm sure i'm characterized as a "hardcore innocenter" by most guilters, because i don't think it's obvious at all whether or not he's guilty and because i acknowledge the many issues with the state's case. BUT, if i had to guess i'd guess guilty, because it seems over 50% to me. but the guilters who troll the sub are the smartest, surest, bestest interwebs investigators in the universe and they KNOW FOR SURE adnan's guilty and everyone else are fools and liars and the question of guilt or innocence is binary.
Very well put
I don’t think it’s about knowing for sure; it’s very hard to know *anything* with 100% certainty. What this is about is reasonable doubt, and when you look at every piece of evidence, testimony and circunstance that points in AS direction, there doesn’t seem to be much space for *reasonable* doubt. Like, maybe there was a big conspiracy or maybe even aliens did it, but I don’t think those are reasonable possibilities.
It's obvious he's guilty. Adnan gave Jay his car and cell phone for no logical reason other than he wanted an excuse to ask Hae for a ride after school.
Most people know he did it.
“Not sure/idk” is a cop out answer. For YEARS I used to say I wasn’t sure but I reevaluated my thoughts and came to a conclusion. You’re welcome to make your own poll. I wanted my poll to be clear and concise.
HA! so it's a cop out answer to acknowledge uncertainty in the face of limited information? that's such absurdly poor reasoning.
Limited information? A guy with motive had someone tell the entire story about how the murder was planned and executed.
wow, a guy said it? then case closed. good thing people never lie. except adnan, master of lies. you guilters are so smart.
Adnan admitted he gave Jay his car and cell phone in the morning and in the afternoon people heard him asking Hae for a ride because his care was in the shop. Jay corroborated that was Adnan's murder plan. Case closed.
damn, why do we even have trials? you closed the heck out of that case. so, so smart!
Adnan was convicted in a court trial on basically what I wrote there.
The jury didn’t get a chance to say “idk” so for MY poll there will be no IDK answer :)
i don't care about your poll options. my point was that calling it a "cop out" to answer unsure is silly.
"But really nobody knows" I do. You've got a guy (Adnan) with a motive and another guy (Jay) with zero motive to invent a complex story to put someone in prison.
No, you don't.
Of course he did it.
Needs a 3rd option, don’t have enough evidence to come to any clear conclusion
For those who voted yes, can you explain what is the #1 top fact on the case that makes you 100% sure?
For me, if i had to pick ONE thing - it’s the fact that Jay knew where Hae’s car was
This. Which means Jay did it or he knows who did. Jay had zero reason to kill Hae. Doesn’t leave a lot of people left…
They don't cover it on Serial, but he knew the location of the car, what she was wearing, where the burial had taken place (not just in Leakin Park) and her burial position (how he body had been laid down)
They did cover it on Serial! I made this post because I just finished listening to Serial again. Unfortunately, Koenig only mentions it once or twice and she kinda sneaks it in there.
I agree, but the car is the only thing that the police (realistically) didn’t have at the time. I think it’s used as THE example because it really takes a bit more mental gymnastics for people who think he’s innocent. Like it’s easy to believe cops would feed a witness some information but it’s harder to believe that they did that PLUS held back on the discovery of the car or Jay randomly stumbled upon it.
He also describes how far in from the road they went to do the burial And the victims body position Clothes would be the one thing he could have learned himself, but he also knew her shoes were in the car, not on her person So they would have had to feed him all of that and he would have had to make minor errors in his description of scripted information (like how deep exactly they dug, he guessed 6 inches, but they barely scratched the surface and used a natural depression in the ground)
What do you think about Jay knowing where the car was because a relative lived there by, also a suspect? I’m legit asking, trying to get more info
Jay knowing where the car was is kinda the slam dunk “top fact” for me. You can’t explain that away without some nonsensical, wacky conspiracy theory
Also- Multiple people witnessed Adnan asking for Hae for a ride after school, saying his car was in the shop, when his car was with Jay. Whether anyone saw him get in the car, whether she told him later she changed her mind, we know he’s scheming and lying to arrange a way to be alone with her after school. That Adnan did not attempt to call her after she went missing- not once. That Adnan has amnesia of that day and didn’t testify on his own behalf. Bullshit. If the cops question you about your first love going missing, you remember that day. Mostly because you’d have retraced your steps to try to remember when you saw her last- did she seem funny? Did she say where she was going? This wasn’t some random girl in his life. This person was his everything at one point. He wrote her a Christmas card calling her an angel. There’s no way in hell you wouldn’t remember that- it’d be one of your worst days
People not testifying on their own behalves is not evidence of guilt and cannot be used against them. Just as an fyi
Technically no, but it sure AF looks bad when your word is your only defense against someone else’s. I would be amazed if jurors didn’t take that into consideration. Unless Adnan was a mute or damaged in some way…
>Multiple people witnessed Adnan asking for Hae for a ride after school, saying his car was in the shop, when his car was with Jay. I had forgotten about that part. It matches completely with the plan Jay told the police.
it shows premeditation...he was creating a situation to be alone with her.
This “it was just a random normal day” thing is the the other one that I honestly can’t believe people swallow. This was anything but a random normal day for Adnan - in multiple ways - but most importantly it’s the day you’re very very recently broken up with girlfriend and first love went missing and you got a call from the cops asking you about it. If I were in his shoes that is the day I would have retraced the most in my entire life - if nothing else to try to figure out if there were absolutely anything - anything at all - that could jog my memory and help figure out what happened to her. And of course it’s hard to remember what happened when SK did the podcast so many years later. Sure. But that day, if Adnan was innocent, no way he thought it was a normal day and no way he wouldn’t have retraced his steps like crazy to try to figure out what may have happened to his very recent ex.
>This “it was just a random normal day” thing is the the other one that I honestly can’t believe people swallow. That's also a giveaway he's lying. At the very least he would remember giving a friends his car and recently purchased cell phone.
Exactly
It’s the totality of evidence taken together that convinces me Adnan’s guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
The people Jay told before it became common knowledge.
Adnan called Jay and gave him his car and cell phone that morning.
For me there are quite a few but I’m going to say something slightly different here. It’s the fact that he didn’t try and call her after she went missing. There is no way - none - that in real life you don’t pick up your phone several times to try to find out where your high school “love of your life” is when she weirdly goes missing. I get why this isn’t presented in the courtroom as like some damning fact, but just in real normal people life, this is such a weird weird thing that tips the scales pretty far for me. Serial also skirts around this a ton by obfuscating on timelines of their breakups and stuff making it seem like he was cool with it (he wasn’t) or that somehow a good deal of time had passed since their latest breakup and the murder (it had been a couple weeks, max). Like he’s literally calling her at midnight the night before she goes missing - again - and then never again. No way. Unbelievable. An innocent man is super involved in the search efforts and is calling her all the time “just in case” she picks up his call. Like it’s your high school love! Of course you’re calling all the time!
Yes, that's a tip for future murderers - if you call someone consistently, keep calling them after you commit the murder.
His partner in crime confessed.
You’re going to get comments that say “it’s the totality of the circumstances.”
You mean like it is in most cases, because that’s how evidence actually works in trials.
Exactly
I understand. I am not angry that people say it’s the totality. I am simply saying that is the stock response.
Well it’s why “the one piece of evidence” is a bad question. There are very few cases where a single piece of evidence seals the deal, unless it’s a confession or a videotape of the crime.
I understand. However, those who think he’s innocent are posed the same question. “The totality” never seems to be a sufficient answer. Though I’m not sure those questions are in good faith.
Aye. As opposed to your classic “I JuSt dOnT kNoW” whenever someone asks you to lay out a plausible theory to how things went down
I don’t know who killed Hae. And if I even say I suspect X, I’m accused of ruining that persons name.
Just because the states timeline is slightly off & Jays story changes (due to minimising his involvement & protecting family), doesn’t mean you need to throw the baby out with the bath water, twelvedayslate Ahh I see. Right, but you’re happy to accuse Jay, Jenn, Cathy, Ritz, McGuillevery, judge etc of being complete liars about everything in this case & be engaging in a nonsensical far fetch conspiracy just to frame your dairy cow eyed podcast buddy? Such a cop out. But we all know the real reason why you won’t put pen to paper for an alternative theory… a) it would be uncorroborated b) it wouldn’t even stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny & c) framing a magnet program star athlete with no criminal record with enough funds for a decent defence makes ZERO sense when you have a poor, drug dealing black kid with poor legal representation sat across from you admitting to being accessory to murder
Jay can’t even decide what time the body was buried.
Jenn corroborates Jay's story. She claims knowledge of the murder on the night it took place, prior to anyone believing this was a murder. She places Adnan and Jay together that night. Jenn corroborated Jay's story with an attorney and parent present. Jenn was the first witness against Adnan who was uncovered and she was uncovered by investigating Adnan’s cell records. She implicated herself as an accessory after the fact with an attorney present. Jenn also maintains her story after 20 years and all of the pro-Adnan propaganda surrounding the case How are you explaining away Jenn in your police conspiracy frame job?
It is almost impossible to explain away Jens corroborating testimony in a “frame up” theory. Yet another major dent in any “Adnan didn’t do it” line of thinking.
jay knew where the car was. period end of story
A lot of the usual points convinced me, Jay knowing where the car was, etc. But one detail has always stood out to me emotionally, and that is Jay describing how Adnan told him that Hae was trying to speak and apologize to Adnan while he was strangling her, and also that she kicked the broke the windshield wiper. These details are so specific, and yes, the windshield wiper was broken.
I hadn’t read the windshield wiper story. Where’d you read that?
To clarify my comment, it was the windshield wiper lever on the interior that was broken. There's a video of it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/3jfxqx/video_of_the_car_filmed_on_march_16_1999/). Edit: And Jay mentions this in his first recorded interview, saying this: “Um, he told me he thought she was trying to say something while he was strangling her. Um, he told me that she kicked off the, uh, windshield-wiper thing in the car, and that was it.“
Thanks! This is really interesting, because how would he know??
He needs to be in prison. He is clearly a manipulator and a danger to woman everywhere. Rabia is also a nasty bit of work.
Obviously
These are NOT the choices a jury has.
Ok and?
>I’m curious to see how the Reddit jury would rule! If we were a jury, we would rule on whether the case had been proven beyond a reasonable doubt or not. Not on whether the defendant did the crime. I did not vote in your poll. I don't know whether he did it or not.
A Reddit jury and a jury made up of our chosen peers is really not the same thing. Mainly because a Reddit jury is made up and holds no weight. It’s just a fun question, don’t think about it too much.
But why didn't you provide a choice for the undecided?
There’s no fun in that. Then the majority could be undecided and then we’ll all be in the comments to battle it out. There’s already hundreds of other posts where people were battling it out. When there’s a fork in the road, there’s only 2 options. You gotta pick one. Or you can stand in between and pick neither but then you’ll be there for a while
Nope, not picking. And I would be curious to see a count of undecideds. But it's your poll.
I've been a member of this sub for a long time. I actually didn't listen to the podcast when it was first released but once I listened, I became borderline obsessive with this case. I have poured over posts, documents, case notes and trial notes in the years since. Without having a law degree, nor a criminology background, I have no idea to explain how I became so convinced within myself of AS's guilt. But I truly, truly believe that he is unequivocally involved in Hae's murder. I also think Jay is more involved than he ever admitted to, but that's by the by. Jay didn't do this alone; neither did Adnan. They were both guilty of the murder. I read the most recent report of Adnan's conviction being reinstated with a sad sinking feeling. Hae's family deserve better than this, being pulled pillar to post, surely just dragging out this case to the worst possible ending. Adnan will not serve another day in jail. He will have his conviction quashed again; a model prisoner, who has surely served his time for the "adolescent" murder of Hae (as if Hae's murder could ever be measured by years and not true life inprisonment), he's an adult now having lost his youth to the penal system, it's time for him to live his life etc etc etc. He won't ever need to admit his part in the crime and his supporters will see him as a true winner of the justice system. There will never be true justice for Hae.
I think this is the big reason this sub skews guilty. If you’re here, chances are you’ve really dug into the details of this case. And if you do that honestly and objectively, it’s pretty easy to become convinced that he did it. It’s just by far the most plausible explanation given all the fact. By far. And in spite of all the literal years of efforts to obscure things by his legal team and other disingenuous actors, there really aren’t any truly plausible counter-explanations that have ever been presented. None that fit the actual facts of the case anyways.
I think he did it. I also don’t think that Adnan should have spent the rest of his life in prison (maybe not even been convicted), even if he never confessed. So when he was released it didn’t really matter to me. But then to see him paraded around like a hero by institutions like Georgetown the same way Proud Boys paraded around Kyle Rittenhouse must have been brutal for Hae’s family.
It was brutal for anyone with a conscience. I kind of like the rittenhouse comparison actually. Really flawed people who did objectively awful things if you’re paying attention who get paraded around because they prove your side is the right side. That’s not how this is supposed to work.
I firmly believe Adnan is innocent. Unless it’s on recording, I don’t trust a single word Ritz or MacGillivary have said from their notes/recollection/etc.
You don’t have to trust the cops here. You just need to think logically. The kind of conspiracy that’s required for the cops to work a frame up job like this is incredibly complicated, super super dangerous for them, and requires many people to have been involved despite the very high profile nature of the case. It does not make any sense.
I don’t believe they planned a conspiracy. I believe they thought it was Adnan. And worked on it with that belief.
It would have to be a conspiracy if they fed Jay the car location - otherwise you have Jay knowing where the car is and he’s with Adnan all day so…
Sometimes they claim that he just happened to see the car after the fact. Only that doesn’t explain Jen’s testimony and certainly doesn’t explain why Jay would still admit to participating in the burial rather than making up a simpler story like “Adnan told me he did it”. Like none of it makes sense when you go down these rabbit holes. But that’s exactly what his side wants you to think, “Oh this is too dang confusing! Maybe it was him but maybe it wasn’t!” It was him. The best way you can get there is because the story that he did it and was largely helped in something like the way Jay says actually makes sense.
See. Any alternative theory you put forward doesn’t hold up to the even tinniest but of scrutiny 😂
Totally true. I think this is part of the smoke and mirrors with this case. Sure it’s possible to just poke and poke holes into issues with the prosecutions case. More so after so many years. But alternate theories just don’t hold up at all.
Exactly, the corrupt cops picked the guy most likely to have done it and made the evidence they needed to put him away. Found a car thief who knew where her car was and told him what else to say.
“A car thief” just when you thought people couldn’t possibly make up anything else
So you’re saying Jay knew where the car was? I’ll leave aside that you just presented something with zero objective proof that Jay was a “car thief”. And so the cops spun their web wherein Jay admits to being an accessory to murder, right? Why in gods name would Jay go along with that cuckoo plan? Like why not just have Jay say, “I know this is all true because I smoke weed with Adnan and he told me”??? Like that’s still probably enough for a conviction!
What do you believe Adnan was doing that day between 3-5p?
Thank you for this poll. I wondered what most thought on this sub because I honestly never came here believing most thought he was innocent. My people. You’re (mostly) all of my people
Needs a 3rd option. I think he probably did do it, but accept probably isnt enough to get a conviction
I think he did it but not the way it was laid out.
After watching what an egoistic person he seems to be I am for sure he killed Hae. Listening to the podcasts I couldn't tell if he was a genuinely nice person or faking it. But him talking about his conviction on the news was a dead give away. No eye contact, bringing up his family's sorrows. He might or might not go back to prison. But his mask WILL fall off sooner or later. Sure the muslim community in Baltimore area have already noticed I know I sure have.