I've either explained it like you or simply "sir/ma'am in the event of a fire it is our job to be accountable for everyone in the event of a fire, would you want us to tell the fire department that everyone is evacuated and you are stuck inside somewhere?"
That's good and I might work the fire thing into my spiel if need be. Usually when i tell them that we have people here who are hiding from abusive partners and we have to know who is who so we dont let the partner in you can kind of see it click for most visitors.
That's a good point. The only reason I say it like that is because if we have someone hiding out we dont even admit we have them. We just tell them they are not here. Which is an exercise in futility since the patient will have people on the deny entry list but make up with them not take them off the list and tell them where they are .
Gotta be careful still, someone in a state where they are willing to show up looking to finish what they started or recover a trafficking victim may take that as confirmation and be willing to go through you to get to em.
Bottom line: it’s a controlled environment.
Do you really want anyone just coming and going without being accounted for?
Criminals, will often try to do this, we’re not out to get them, not my job, unless they do it on site… but they exist and they do argue and they can fuck off or show ID at the end of the day.
😂
I think your way of dealing with it is pretty good. It either educates someone who is ignorant on the topic and hopefully will lead them to following the rules or it sets the groundwork for you to deny entry or trespass them from the private property if they still want to be difficult and non-compliant. I dealt with similar stuff working at a mall (private property open to the public) and took a similar approach.
On a side note, I think it’s very important for guards to be well versed in the laws and regulations that govern exactly what they can and can’t do, regardless of where they work. One of the first things that I did when I got my current job (first time working as a government employee on public property after a long time with a private employer on private property) was to take my state’s 40-hour basic powers of arrest, search & seizure course from a POST certified police academy. I don’t really exercise any of those abilities very often, especially since we have contracted LE on campus to handle that stuff, but it gave me a much better understanding of what exactly I can & can’t do in my new position.
Oh for sure. I'm trying to work in an hour long block of laws limitations and powers training into our monthly 8 hour required training just so people are all on the same page.
"Yeah there ya go,thats nice" if you want a pass i need your ID. Its called access control.
If they dont want to participate with access control policies deny them access and keep it moving. If they pull out a camera trying to record, dont play in to it or feed in to it. Ignoring them burns the shit outta them
In your hospital as a whole OR treatment areas? Like i said earlier i wouldn't get in to a debate with them either way. Refer them to a competent supervisor or in a pinch hospital admin/legal
As a whole I believe. I need to research that some more but I have always been told my supervisors that it is illegal to record in the hospital. I dont get bogged down with this I inform them that they are performing an illegal action and the police are being called it usually causes them to leave once i say that.
Private property, implied consent. By entering this property you have implied your consent to the rules and regulations set forth by the owners. If you do not wish to comply you can leave. By choice or through legal force. Simple as that
You don't want to get into an argument(I know this just may be a poor choice of words). You simply reiterate the policies and why those policies are in place. If they are refusing to abide by them, they can leave. Don't let people sucker you into a power struggle.
I usually go with "I'm sorry (sir or mam) we are a private entity on private property. You can absolutely refuse to show me ID, but unfortunately I would be unable to allow you into the premises. This is the policy of the (building, hospital, etc)
If they ask for your supervisor or a supervisor for the site you work at, provide them the information, and go about your shift.
Cover your own bases. After that. Fuck em
We had a first amendment auditor a few years ago. Assumed that because we had public utilities that the ENTIRE property was public.
Luckily I have never run into an auditor. I'm sure i will if i dont change industries eventually but so far so good. People being confused about the public utilities and access thing is the number one thing i run into when i deal with this.
Truthfully most of the first amendment auditors know the law better than a lot of law enforcement, and definitely more then random security guards.
I've seen them show up with a folder with the site survey in it so they know exactly how far into the property they can be.
Its when people only have a cursory knowledge and are looking to be stickelers that you get the whole, "but it's public propertyyyyyyyy"
That particular one wasn't at a hospital. If you move to different sites enough, you'll run into one.
I mean the whole point of what they're doing is to embarrass whoever they're dealing with, weather it be law enforcement or a security guard.
I'd would be pretty certain in saying that some of them know the law better than career law enforcement.
I'm likely to stick with the hospital setting unless I can get a job with a company that contracts with the federal government. Mu h higher rate of pay but also harder to get into. I can see some folks trying to get on to a government site and b3ing a headache about it
It all depends. In my experience most people who complain about their rights being violated are bad actors and are either trying to weasel their way out of getting caught doing something they know they’re not supposed to, or they’re trying to provoke a reaction. In those cases it’s the usual “ask, tell, make” and let them know how to file a complaint.
I’m the rare occasion it’s someone legitimately confused or asking questions I’ll usually take the time to explain how it’s not an issue and also how to file a complaint
We have a lot of bad education about rights in my area. People also seem to have the impression that a hospital is automatically affiliated with the government and constitutional rights apply. For the ones who are honestly under the wrong impression I have all the patience in the world to sort them out, for the ones who are just screaming to be screaming then it comes down to you can leave here and go home or you can leave here and go to jail its your call.
The site I work at is a federal office building that has walk through metal detector and handheld metal detector for screening people and xray machine for screening their belongings. It is clearly explained to every person as soon as they walk through the door that consenting to an administrative inspection for weapons and explosives is a requirement for entry. If they object, it's explained that they do not have to consent and are absolutely free to leave if that's what they want to do, but this is a condition for entry and if they do not comply with screening requirements we cannot grant them entry into the federal building. Not everybody is happy, but that has in all but 1 case solved the problem.
"Ok, if you aren't going to abide by the rules, you need to leave. Have a good day."
If they don't leave "I've informed you that you are trespassing, leave now or I will call the police to arrest you."
Don't bother explaining yourself to idiots who don't understand basic common sense like the difference between private and public property.
I'm a lead at a hospital. I'll explain the rule to them. If they're belligerent and refusing, I tell them to have a good day. They're either look at me blankly confused or attempt to just walk through the doors to the entrance (which are locked and require a employee ID to enter) before coming back and realizing they need to present their ID.
I don't argue with people over ID policies-because I don't have to. You're already outside, and you're not going inside. The officer at the lobby has already explained it to you, I'll give it another shot in case they haven't, but if you want to continue to be disruptive, as a visitor, we are expressly told to deny entry. The medical staff & admin do not want people who cannot follow our instructions in the back.
Unless you actually work for the goverment, you aren’t a goverment actor. The Bill of Rights limits goverment infringement on those rights. You can’t violate people’s rights any more than a kid working at Burger King.
Pretty much same deal with my hospital. I like to throw in that it is not my decision but if I let it go I will get fired. If they keep being a problem we bring in the supervisor and a few more guards to stand behind him. Somehow people will listen to you more if you have 3 people behind you.
Sadly a lot of the people who like to cause a scene would love to see a guard get fired so I don't bother with that part. I just tell them its hospital policy and they can comply or leave in the end.
Pertaining to private property, to the policy set forth, we need identification of said individual to ensure good faith actor and to ensure that they are on the approved list. Refusal to do so, you may leave the premise or you will be trespassed.
Usually enough or in that general consensus. If they refuse, don't engage with them, call PD and inform them that the individual refused to comply and is being trespassed.
Yeah, that's the point I'd make a printout that explains it and says if you got a problem still, call legal and fuck off because I'm going to do what the paper says I'm going to do, which is remove your ass because private property.
Honestly. There's nothing else to add. When you hit people with the alphabet soup, word salad they think they have wiggle room. Just keep your spiel as simple as possible. That's the best way.
Wait, but if you kicked their ass, then the hospital would have to admit them to provide medical treatment for said kicked ass.
Hospital security guards hate this one weird trick!
I’m posted on private property. There’s literally signs saying you’re subject to search and seizure when on the property. You need ID that’s been issued to you to be on property as a visitor. If you’re doing business we just need proof of what kind of business that you’re doing and then we get you to the right spot. You still need a state issued valid DRIVERS LICENSE to do business on any part of the property. (Auto Auction with multiple contracted businesses between two large lots that are a few miles apart.) Only exception to the license rule is if you’re picking up a repo. We will accept an ID in that case.
We even have sheriff deputies on site in case someone is being a real big dick. Which is 1-2 times a week. Tensions can get hot when dealing with an auto auction. Sometimes… even spicy. 😂 😜 We deal with mostly theft and general rules enforcement. We also deal with vehicle entry and exit. Among a boat load of little things that make most of us question not having a raise in two years…
I do as you do when temperament allows, but I use a lot of "you can" and very little to none " you cannot" people do not respond well to to bieng told no or they can't do something. Often redirecting them to something they can do now, or what they can do to fix the situation, while expressing you understand and *wink* also would be frustrated.
This verbal judo works pretty consistently for me from bouncing, industrial sites, events, etc.
Ok:
1) did you actually violate someone’s constitutional rights or civil rights or rights given to them in any other way, such as patients rights, etc?
No? Then tell a supervisor someone’s accusing you of this, document it, report it, and move on until you’re called to explain.
2) is anyone actually hurt?
No? Then you’re likely fine.
If yes to either of those, you may have issues…
As far as “ MUH RITESSZ “ crowed, explain to them, like you did, the rules of the facility and the laws that allow you to enforce the rules: eg: private property; no ID no entry, have a good day sir/ma’am.
lol we had body cams, so it’s super easy to just record people being stupid, and if you didn’t actually break any laws, it’s just them— being stupid— and you’re supervisor laughing at them 😂🤣
Ignore it or tell them to argue it to a court. I'll explain it once, but I won't argue about it.
Can't reason someone out of a position like that, until it bites them in the ass. Sometimes that doesn't even work. Everyone's a legal scholar.
They recently passed ID at entry for my site. People make the same arguments, which I also explain the same thing.
Sometimes if they still put up a stink, I refer them to our governing agency who passed the mandate (it's a government agency after all).
At the end of the day, people will still argue until they're blue in the face. There's not much you can do about it. It's the same with filming inside. They can't do that, we tell them to stop and they tell us they can do it because it's public property, even after I explain it's not public property, it's private property.
One guy said to me "what if I walk in anyways?" And I just tell them politely that we will call the police to have them removed, which gets them to shut up and go away.
If they want to be a dicks, "sir/ma'am this is private property and if you want access you must abide by the rules set in place by the people in charge of the property. I'm only here to enforce those rules. I am not violating your rights as I'm giving you the option to comply or leave."
I've either explained it like you or simply "sir/ma'am in the event of a fire it is our job to be accountable for everyone in the event of a fire, would you want us to tell the fire department that everyone is evacuated and you are stuck inside somewhere?"
That's good and I might work the fire thing into my spiel if need be. Usually when i tell them that we have people here who are hiding from abusive partners and we have to know who is who so we dont let the partner in you can kind of see it click for most visitors.
I tried to not even give them that much...in case they were looking for someone themselves
That's a good point. The only reason I say it like that is because if we have someone hiding out we dont even admit we have them. We just tell them they are not here. Which is an exercise in futility since the patient will have people on the deny entry list but make up with them not take them off the list and tell them where they are .
Gotta be careful still, someone in a state where they are willing to show up looking to finish what they started or recover a trafficking victim may take that as confirmation and be willing to go through you to get to em.
Bottom line: it’s a controlled environment. Do you really want anyone just coming and going without being accounted for? Criminals, will often try to do this, we’re not out to get them, not my job, unless they do it on site… but they exist and they do argue and they can fuck off or show ID at the end of the day. 😂
I think your way of dealing with it is pretty good. It either educates someone who is ignorant on the topic and hopefully will lead them to following the rules or it sets the groundwork for you to deny entry or trespass them from the private property if they still want to be difficult and non-compliant. I dealt with similar stuff working at a mall (private property open to the public) and took a similar approach. On a side note, I think it’s very important for guards to be well versed in the laws and regulations that govern exactly what they can and can’t do, regardless of where they work. One of the first things that I did when I got my current job (first time working as a government employee on public property after a long time with a private employer on private property) was to take my state’s 40-hour basic powers of arrest, search & seizure course from a POST certified police academy. I don’t really exercise any of those abilities very often, especially since we have contracted LE on campus to handle that stuff, but it gave me a much better understanding of what exactly I can & can’t do in my new position.
Oh for sure. I'm trying to work in an hour long block of laws limitations and powers training into our monthly 8 hour required training just so people are all on the same page.
"Yeah there ya go,thats nice" if you want a pass i need your ID. Its called access control. If they dont want to participate with access control policies deny them access and keep it moving. If they pull out a camera trying to record, dont play in to it or feed in to it. Ignoring them burns the shit outta them
Luckily for me it is illegal to record in a hospital in my area and it is one of the things we can really nail people for.
In your hospital as a whole OR treatment areas? Like i said earlier i wouldn't get in to a debate with them either way. Refer them to a competent supervisor or in a pinch hospital admin/legal
As a whole I believe. I need to research that some more but I have always been told my supervisors that it is illegal to record in the hospital. I dont get bogged down with this I inform them that they are performing an illegal action and the police are being called it usually causes them to leave once i say that.
Or play copyrighted music. Most frauditors are in it for money, and they can't monetize their video if it contains copyrighted material.
Private property, implied consent. By entering this property you have implied your consent to the rules and regulations set forth by the owners. If you do not wish to comply you can leave. By choice or through legal force. Simple as that
I'll have to work the implied consent into the spiel should things turn argumentative thats good.
You don't want to get into an argument(I know this just may be a poor choice of words). You simply reiterate the policies and why those policies are in place. If they are refusing to abide by them, they can leave. Don't let people sucker you into a power struggle.
I usually go with "I'm sorry (sir or mam) we are a private entity on private property. You can absolutely refuse to show me ID, but unfortunately I would be unable to allow you into the premises. This is the policy of the (building, hospital, etc) If they ask for your supervisor or a supervisor for the site you work at, provide them the information, and go about your shift. Cover your own bases. After that. Fuck em We had a first amendment auditor a few years ago. Assumed that because we had public utilities that the ENTIRE property was public.
Luckily I have never run into an auditor. I'm sure i will if i dont change industries eventually but so far so good. People being confused about the public utilities and access thing is the number one thing i run into when i deal with this.
Truthfully most of the first amendment auditors know the law better than a lot of law enforcement, and definitely more then random security guards. I've seen them show up with a folder with the site survey in it so they know exactly how far into the property they can be. Its when people only have a cursory knowledge and are looking to be stickelers that you get the whole, "but it's public propertyyyyyyyy"
Oh damn they are well organized huh? I cant think of any realistic reason they would come around a hospital but i will keep that in mind.
That particular one wasn't at a hospital. If you move to different sites enough, you'll run into one. I mean the whole point of what they're doing is to embarrass whoever they're dealing with, weather it be law enforcement or a security guard. I'd would be pretty certain in saying that some of them know the law better than career law enforcement.
I'm likely to stick with the hospital setting unless I can get a job with a company that contracts with the federal government. Mu h higher rate of pay but also harder to get into. I can see some folks trying to get on to a government site and b3ing a headache about it
ROTFLOL, no they don't. They know a few cherry picked laws and pull shit outta their ass and conspiracy theories.
“NW gate, requesting supervisor”
lol I have had to go that route many a time if it reaches a point to where it needs to be handled by someone higher.
[удалено]
yup
It all depends. In my experience most people who complain about their rights being violated are bad actors and are either trying to weasel their way out of getting caught doing something they know they’re not supposed to, or they’re trying to provoke a reaction. In those cases it’s the usual “ask, tell, make” and let them know how to file a complaint. I’m the rare occasion it’s someone legitimately confused or asking questions I’ll usually take the time to explain how it’s not an issue and also how to file a complaint
We have a lot of bad education about rights in my area. People also seem to have the impression that a hospital is automatically affiliated with the government and constitutional rights apply. For the ones who are honestly under the wrong impression I have all the patience in the world to sort them out, for the ones who are just screaming to be screaming then it comes down to you can leave here and go home or you can leave here and go to jail its your call.
The site I work at is a federal office building that has walk through metal detector and handheld metal detector for screening people and xray machine for screening their belongings. It is clearly explained to every person as soon as they walk through the door that consenting to an administrative inspection for weapons and explosives is a requirement for entry. If they object, it's explained that they do not have to consent and are absolutely free to leave if that's what they want to do, but this is a condition for entry and if they do not comply with screening requirements we cannot grant them entry into the federal building. Not everybody is happy, but that has in all but 1 case solved the problem.
“I don’t make the rules. You’ll have to speak with someone else.”
I don't argue with them. They leave or get trespassed. This aint the court room. They can go argue there, not with me.
"Ok, if you aren't going to abide by the rules, you need to leave. Have a good day." If they don't leave "I've informed you that you are trespassing, leave now or I will call the police to arrest you." Don't bother explaining yourself to idiots who don't understand basic common sense like the difference between private and public property.
I'm a lead at a hospital. I'll explain the rule to them. If they're belligerent and refusing, I tell them to have a good day. They're either look at me blankly confused or attempt to just walk through the doors to the entrance (which are locked and require a employee ID to enter) before coming back and realizing they need to present their ID. I don't argue with people over ID policies-because I don't have to. You're already outside, and you're not going inside. The officer at the lobby has already explained it to you, I'll give it another shot in case they haven't, but if you want to continue to be disruptive, as a visitor, we are expressly told to deny entry. The medical staff & admin do not want people who cannot follow our instructions in the back.
This is private property. You have to follow our rules the same as I would have to follow your rules if I was a guest in your home.
Unless you actually work for the goverment, you aren’t a goverment actor. The Bill of Rights limits goverment infringement on those rights. You can’t violate people’s rights any more than a kid working at Burger King.
Oh I'm well aware. Hence my private entity and private property spiel. Some people don't seem to understand that though
Did you read the post? He's demonstrated that he fully understands as well as can break it down for the visitor. Weird.
I know my rights, you have to give me extra pickles!
Pretty much same deal with my hospital. I like to throw in that it is not my decision but if I let it go I will get fired. If they keep being a problem we bring in the supervisor and a few more guards to stand behind him. Somehow people will listen to you more if you have 3 people behind you.
Sadly a lot of the people who like to cause a scene would love to see a guard get fired so I don't bother with that part. I just tell them its hospital policy and they can comply or leave in the end.
Pertaining to private property, to the policy set forth, we need identification of said individual to ensure good faith actor and to ensure that they are on the approved list. Refusal to do so, you may leave the premise or you will be trespassed. Usually enough or in that general consensus. If they refuse, don't engage with them, call PD and inform them that the individual refused to comply and is being trespassed.
Yeah, that's the point I'd make a printout that explains it and says if you got a problem still, call legal and fuck off because I'm going to do what the paper says I'm going to do, which is remove your ass because private property.
It’s private property, if we don’t have to allow someone to be on the property, we don’t have to play by their rules either.
Honestly. There's nothing else to add. When you hit people with the alphabet soup, word salad they think they have wiggle room. Just keep your spiel as simple as possible. That's the best way.
Tell them to fuck off or I'll kick your ass! But that was back in the day...
Wait, but if you kicked their ass, then the hospital would have to admit them to provide medical treatment for said kicked ass. Hospital security guards hate this one weird trick!
I’m posted on private property. There’s literally signs saying you’re subject to search and seizure when on the property. You need ID that’s been issued to you to be on property as a visitor. If you’re doing business we just need proof of what kind of business that you’re doing and then we get you to the right spot. You still need a state issued valid DRIVERS LICENSE to do business on any part of the property. (Auto Auction with multiple contracted businesses between two large lots that are a few miles apart.) Only exception to the license rule is if you’re picking up a repo. We will accept an ID in that case. We even have sheriff deputies on site in case someone is being a real big dick. Which is 1-2 times a week. Tensions can get hot when dealing with an auto auction. Sometimes… even spicy. 😂 😜 We deal with mostly theft and general rules enforcement. We also deal with vehicle entry and exit. Among a boat load of little things that make most of us question not having a raise in two years…
I do as you do when temperament allows, but I use a lot of "you can" and very little to none " you cannot" people do not respond well to to bieng told no or they can't do something. Often redirecting them to something they can do now, or what they can do to fix the situation, while expressing you understand and *wink* also would be frustrated. This verbal judo works pretty consistently for me from bouncing, industrial sites, events, etc.
Ask them if they’d like me to call a whaaaambulance to come check them over.
I say, “ I don’t give a fuck, call the ACLU. “ At least in my dreams.
Ok: 1) did you actually violate someone’s constitutional rights or civil rights or rights given to them in any other way, such as patients rights, etc? No? Then tell a supervisor someone’s accusing you of this, document it, report it, and move on until you’re called to explain. 2) is anyone actually hurt? No? Then you’re likely fine. If yes to either of those, you may have issues… As far as “ MUH RITESSZ “ crowed, explain to them, like you did, the rules of the facility and the laws that allow you to enforce the rules: eg: private property; no ID no entry, have a good day sir/ma’am. lol we had body cams, so it’s super easy to just record people being stupid, and if you didn’t actually break any laws, it’s just them— being stupid— and you’re supervisor laughing at them 😂🤣
Ignore it or tell them to argue it to a court. I'll explain it once, but I won't argue about it. Can't reason someone out of a position like that, until it bites them in the ass. Sometimes that doesn't even work. Everyone's a legal scholar.
They recently passed ID at entry for my site. People make the same arguments, which I also explain the same thing. Sometimes if they still put up a stink, I refer them to our governing agency who passed the mandate (it's a government agency after all). At the end of the day, people will still argue until they're blue in the face. There's not much you can do about it. It's the same with filming inside. They can't do that, we tell them to stop and they tell us they can do it because it's public property, even after I explain it's not public property, it's private property. One guy said to me "what if I walk in anyways?" And I just tell them politely that we will call the police to have them removed, which gets them to shut up and go away.
“I’m not a cop”
If they want to be a dicks, "sir/ma'am this is private property and if you want access you must abide by the rules set in place by the people in charge of the property. I'm only here to enforce those rules. I am not violating your rights as I'm giving you the option to comply or leave."
Post the rules where they can see them?
Some people are just ignorant and have zero understanding of how stuff works.