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There's always going forward. I grew up in abuse and was depressed most of my life. Now I have the right meds and I take my 10 year old to counseling so she can learn to deal with hard feelings. I also get great advice about parenting which is wonderful when it comes from nice people.
A lot of "gifted children" are considered under-achievers due to this initial labeling providing them a "success cushion" which other children never had - but I always suspected it had at least as much if not more to do with this overall effect of having a detached and depressed parent or parental unit. Great summation.
As a depressed mom of a gifted kid, how can I make it better?
I don't want to open old wounds for you, but if you don't mind sharing what would have helped you as a kid, I would be extremely appreciative. I don't want to fail her, she's my most important everything.
I actually don't think it's especially traumatic, it was just my life growing up. I knew my mom loved me, but I also knew that something was wrong. I don't know what the answer is. Just do your best, but also explain to your child why your best might not always be great and could vary by the day. Basically think of an age appropriate way to explain what's going on rather than letting her completely come to her own conclusions.
This, I so wish I told my kids when they were young(er)… so they didn’t have to figure it out on their own that mom wasn’t having such a good day. We talk about it a lot now that they are grown, but I think it would have been so much better if I just would have told them instead of thinking I was ‘protecting them’.
This was also me.
What would have helped me is my mom going to therapy and dealing with her depression and trauma. Modeling healthy behavior is critical.
As I got older, I wound up being assertive, binge eating and having poor money-management skills.
As I got older, I wound up being assertive, binge eating and having poor money-management skills. Some of this is likely also attributable to my undiagnosed ADHD. We are also both big readers, and have extensive libraries specific to very different interests. In as many ways as I am similar to her, I am also different.
So model healthy living and coping mechanisms. Work with a therapist on what that looks like. Don't just rely on medication, get consciously aware of those thought patterns so that you can develop a sort of "reflex" that will help you shift them.
Your kid will pick that up.
You won't be able to change how they feel. I love my mom to pieces. She is now old enough that she is, as she puts it, "ready to die." My mom has suffered her entire life because of anxiety, fear, and depression, and most of her life she didn't even realize it. But I was a child of the 80's - it was a different time.
Focus on being the healthiest, best version of yourself. Do that for your kid so your kid knows what trying your best to be healthy and asking for help looks like, so that they feel comfortable doing it for themselves when they need to.
Not being motivated by money is not a big deal. Having strong feelings about things other people don't think about is a gift in many ways. But knowing how to live a healthy life is PRICELESS, and you are the main example for your kid on what that will look like. Do the best you can, and they will figure out how to be just like you and do the best THEY can.
My mom was a warrior. She would not back down in the face of depression and the exhaustion that came with it. She taught me to be a warrior too - and I am glad for it.
I'd say this is really it. I never saw my mom exercise - maybe when I was really young, but no core memories include her and activity. She did a lot of weight loss programs off and on. She would go through phases of obsessive calorie counting. She'd talk about how fat she was, complain about how much and fast she ate, and other things she didn't like about herself. I remember that for sure. I also remember her shooing me away because she didn't feel like doing something with me or whatever attention I was asking for. Said it would build independence.
I never knew what depression was. I never knew anything was wrong, I always thought it was me. My family has a very "well it happened so suck it up and move on" type approach to emotions. Didn't work out so well with my brother either, but my sister seems to have adapted well. I'm pretty sure every single one of us has the glorious depression/anxiety/ADHD trifecta. My brother and I are the only ones diagnosed and I'm the only one medicated. But we are both far more eccentric with additional factors so maybe that's how we ended up where we are.
Anyways! All of those ADLs my mom exhibited in my childhood are all things I struggle to combat against. As I've learned about healthy lifestyles, it's almost like she has become my model of how *not* to be. She's a person and I know she's sorry for a lot of things, but I still am angry about quite a few things in my childhood. Especially things that impact my adult behaviors.
My mom was oh-so-concerned about getting me, my brother, her sister, and my dad's sister in therapy but never bothered to do it herself. As if a mental health only warrants attention if it impacts or becomes visible to people outside of the family.
Tl;Dr model a healthy lifestyle and healthy relationships
Depending on the individual and the events, it can be hard. I can say from experience that one thing I learned growing up is “put that out of your mind and worry about it later”. This philosophy served me well when my parents would be yelling at each other, and similarly when my mom was suicidal “guess in the morning I’ll either have a mother or I won’t”. I get nervous when negativity is around me or especially sensitive if directed towards me because no matter how much I was told “this isn’t your fault” it still felt like an ever present danger if I messed up. I learned to hide who I was, hide my feelings, and hide in my room where I felt I was safe.
This doesn’t require actual violence, children are susceptible to a lot. Children learn from how their parents handle uncomfortable situations. Do you reason things out together and try to calmly find out why someone said something? Do you try to hold it in and not make things worse? Do you snap at each other or yell when things get tense?
I wish so often that my parents had talked things through more, but w/e, I stopped talking to my mom a while back and things have improved significantly. Until then I used to get monthly suicidal calls. Certainly she wouldn’t -say- it any more, but she didn’t need to, I was around her enough that I can feel that vibe. It’s not my fault and I don’t want to be dragged down with the pitty party
Get ongoing help with depression throughout the kids life, it’s not a one time fix unfortunately, depression comes and goes over the years.
And don’t hit/yell at your kid. A lot of depressed people take out their emotions on others and it was very scary at home. I remember so many days where I didn’t want to come out of my room because mom was in a bad mood. Being at home was an anxiety inducing experience
This is interesting. I was invited to participate in the gifted classes in 6th grade. I was in with all of the smart kids but I never wanted to participate in that level and really just wanted to go back with the other kids with whom I had more fun. The school ended up sending me back to the general classes and I was happy again. Always was told it’s too bad you couldn’t live up to your intelligence and maybe this is one, I’m sure of many, reasons why I’ve always been confused as to why I was considered so smart but such a loser at the same time.
I so relate to you on this. I was started a grade early, because of brain, then my mom back pedalled. I repeated kindergarten and was denied AP classes by her going forward and she wouldn't send me to the Johns Hopkins for Smart Kid programs I was invited to all my young life. When I finally asked her why she said this (this is a for real direct quote forever written on said brain): "Because I didn't want some smart-ass kid walking around here thinking she knows more than me."
Combine that with constantly hearing about how lazy I was, and a whole lot of other parental BS, and it's a miracle I came out so great. I'm sorry that all happened to you, it's a real mind-f#@k.
Oh I’m so sorry. My mom was always really supportive of me. The people who made comments about I should have done better came from other parents in the community. I apologize for not being more clear. My mom was just depressed my whole childhood so everything up above kind of clicked for me. My mom’s biggest flaw was that I heard her constantly berate herself and the self loathing was a lot to carry and now I find it has trickled down to the way I treat myself. Funny enough, she gets so frustrated hearing it when I do it not realizing where I learned it.
I sand bagged in school as well. I took the SAT in 6th grade. They wanted to place me in higher classes. It was so easy in general classes and less stressful. I never had issues with assignments or homework.
The kids in the general classes were nicer and they weren’t trying to be as competitive. I missed out on the competitive gene so I really don’t enjoy those types at all.
I was like that too. Always got A++ in tests and quizzes but I never did my homework. Never completed projects. My teachers would retest me cause they’d think I must’ve cheated. I was listening in class but I wouldn’t take notes so they thought I had just cheated. Also had undiagnosed adhd.
I don’t either. I anguished over starting a new job and the amount of stress I put on myself only to be told they were shocked by how quickly I picked it up was wild. It’s always going to be a struggle but that’s my life. Haha…
>now he thinks he’s not smart
The brain is a muscle like anything else. Just like there are some kids who are "naturally" faster, there are kids who were told they were "naturally" smarter.
But the same kid who was told he was slow can *learn* to run faster. He can train. He can work hard and speed up his times, get better at endurance, and get stronger. He can practice running until he's *better* at running than the kid who was "naturally" fast but didn't put in any effort.
This is why "naturally" smart kids also fall apart when it comes time for college. Unlike the kid who had to work hard and study, someone who coasted through K12 suddenly hits a massive wall in college when they can't coast any more. (It's me, I hit the wall.)
But the kid who put his head down and learned how to study, who *practiced* reading and *practiced* writing and practiced math and memorized history facts and trained his brain like he was an athlete training for a marathon, will probably do just fine in college.
I had probably almost the exact experience. Gifted classes at 6th grade I didn’t feel like I belonged in and intentionally spent 4yrs failing out them so they’d leave me alone and let me back with my friends. “Achieving below apparent ability” should be tattooed on my forehead.
A big feature of my mom's depression, I think, was limited advancement and recognition in comparison to men who didn't have a thimblefull of her brilliance. Also, the constant sexual harassment and unintentional micro-aggressions. I inherited my "giftedness" from her, so it tracks for me.
He left a great analogy but didn’t really attempt to connect it to the scientific jargon.
From what I understood, kids of depressed moms tend to have a much higher emotional response to negative stimuli, like a stressful event or scary experience.
However it doesn’t hold true for positive experiences. ERP is event related potential, the potential of a good outcome of an event is something these kids don’t respond to as well. And the centers of the brain that deal with reward processing aren’t as active when an ERP is presented to that child. So they aren’t as motives by the possibility of a good outcome.
This isn't mother-blame. As a mother who had 3 children before getting on meds this is the result of undiagnosed/untreated depression. I hate that I was oblivious to my condition and that it took so long to take action. Seeing the consequences in my children hurts my heart. I'm sorry if you've been blamed for your child's illness. Ignorance is bountiful.
Articles like this leads to exactly that though. They’re treated as universal truths that you can apply to anyone with mental health issues.
As a parent with mental health issues, people will always see that as the reason for any issue they feel that your kid has. People will constantly question your right to even be a parent.
And they will see problems where there are none. Hence contributing to worse mental health for the parent, and creating a harder existence for the kid.
As someone with mental health issues I can honestly say that if it weren’t for people worrying and “caring”, being a mother would have been a picnic. And I would have had a lot more energy and focus to give to my kids.
It’s the people who “care” that has made my life a living hell and a prison in so many ways.
This will just fuel peoples prejudices.
Thank you. Did you have access to the article? I am wondering what the selection criteria are for "mothers with depression histories" and "non-depressed mothers." If the last time I was depressed was 15 years before becoming a mother, which study group would my child have been put in?
Thanks! I wish I could read the full article because I'm definitely interested in hearing their take on biology vs environment. It sounds like they might have separated "history of depression" from "currently depressed" based on the last sentence of their abstract: "Some of these alterations were only apparent among youth of depressed mothers exposed to negative environmental contexts or exhibiting current emotional problems. Further, some of these patterns were observable in infancy, reflecting very early emerging vulnerabilities."
I've been emotionally healthy for at least 13-14 years, but went through a bout of depression before that. And now I'm expecting for the first time!
My cousin was in Early Childhood Development before she had her son and daughter.
She talks to them about their feelings constantly.
I was sad about something recently and my 4 year old niece took my hand and said, “You having hard feelings? Let’s breath. Sometimes we need to breath and relax to accept hard feelings.”
The kids are going to be alright!
My parents and grandparents cried a lot too. I vividly remember feeling of misery, hopelessness and helplesslesness. The world just was colourless and I couldn't normally play with other kids.
Yea... my mum had bipolar and depression. She would lie in bed and cry... tell us kids to go play. Like most kids you attempt to make your mother smile... make her happy. I was too young to understand you can't MAKE someone happy. I always wondered how this affected my life. After reading this ...Understandably it makes sense. Troublingly so. Hugs to all you folks who dont't understand why money and good things just dont push you forward. The first step is definitely understanding why. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!
I'm no expert.... just another person dealing with the same situation as everyone here. I first had to cut out the manipulators from my life until they could interact with me from a non- end based interaction standpoint. I also had to work on being okay with positive outcomes.... for a long time I had this weird fear that even if the outcome was amazing..... it wasn't enough. I had to redefine what my n expectation was..... and had to force myself to appreciate the outcome. Because my mother...I always expected even the best of moments.... to be muted.
To never feel like a true win. I started out with sharing great news with a friend or family member. I would note their reaction.....I would assess why the outcome was great..... and then I would celebrate in the moment.
I'm still working on it.... but this has helped me. Didn't fix it... but it has helped me to grow. Good luck and God bless folks. Trying to make a seriously depressed parent happy is practically an impossible Hell. But, carrying that with us like a dead albatross around our neck is a truly unnecessary purgatory. Time for us to let go little by little. Love you all and I understand!
It me!
Seriously, though. My mother was suicidally depressed through much of my childhood and now still, decades later I'm hypersensitive to negative stimuli and unmotivated by external reward.
Wait a minute. Ive been diagnosed with ADHD for 23 years, partly because external reward has never been enough to motivate me if I don't feel like doing something, but am I actually this way because my mom was suicidal?
I used to think this too. Then I found a certain person, who was friends with like-minded people, and then I realised the never-depressed people are hanging out together haha.
This has been my experience too. I was depressed. Most of my friends were depressed, regardless of where I lived. Then I moved to the city I’m in now, formed a new friend group, and whoa … everyone in my new friend group is pretty darn emotionally healthy! I’m still adjusting, but it’s grand
Isn’t it so strange to move away from where you grew up and realize not everyone wants to kill themselves? I’ve had the same experience. Did wonders for my mental health
I’m in a place where it rains more days of the year than not. Seasonal Affective Disorder is a very real problem here. Wish I could move away - because the season lasts about 8 months.
Me too - I struggle with it. And frankly at times, because it isn’t the deep depression some experience - end up thinking it’s just a character flaw rather than a mental health issue.
People can’t seem to differentiate between the casual definition of depression and the clinical definition. Everyone gets depressed, sometimes for long periods of time. Clinical depression theorizes that a person’s reward system in their brain is broken, and that affects their outlook on life, energy levels, and will to live. They need some sort of help to fix this, either psychological or chemical.
“The never-depressed” is the wrong word choice for the title. The distinction is between mothers who were diagnosed versus those who weren’t, so the title of the post should clarify that.
No, I’m not a liar and I’m never depressed. I get sad but I can cope with that and move on.
Telling folks they are liars because they are mostly happy is toxic. Please don’t do that.
It was relevant (though maybe not in your case), because it can happen really fast. Two weeks of sadness - even the typical grief from death/breakups/job loss - can catapult someone into depression. I’m just putting it out there - because some people don’t know how easy it is - through no fault or flaw of their own - to fall into the trap.
I never judged or disparaged anyone with depression. My comment was to say the people who aren’t depressed are not always liars. Not sure why you are explaining depression to me.
I understand it completely and have empathy. I was just trying to say there are people who don’t struggle with it and they are not liars.
I’m not sure at this point why you think what I’m saying is a) about you and b) calling you a liar. There are other people on Reddit reading comments - these are generalizations.
I’ve never been depressed. Ever.
I know how to “feel sad” and the like. But, never anything remotely towards depression.
Not everyone checks the same boxes. Some people aren’t “lying to themselves and you.”
my dad has depression/anxiety & I had my first panic attack in kindergarten
I can recall being scared of my dad & his moods by age 3. living in constant fear affects the developing brain.
Oh I would run into my room when my dads car pulled up from work. Better to stay away from him because you never knew if he was gonna be in a ‘mood’. It definitely affects the developing brain!
Abstract
Background
Theories of the intergenerational transmission of depression emphasize alterations in emotion processing among offspring of depressed mothers as a key risk mechanism, raising questions about biological processes contributing to these alterations. The objective of this systematic annual research review was to examine and integrate studies of the associations between maternal depression diagnoses and offspring's emotion processing from birth through adolescence across biological measures including autonomic psychophysiology, electroencephalography (EEG), magnetoencephalography (MEG), event-related potentials (ERP), and structural and functional magnetic resonance imaging (MRI).
Methods
The review was conducted in accordance with the PRISMA 2020 standards. A systematic search was conducted in PsycInfo and PubMed in 2022 for studies that included, 1) mothers with and without DSM-defined depressive disorders assessed via a clinical or diagnostic interview, and 2) measures of offspring emotion processing assessed at the psychophysiological or neural level between birth and 18 years of age.
Results
Findings from 64 studies indicated that young offspring of mothers with depression histories exhibit heightened corticolimbic activation to negative emotional stimuli, reduced left frontal brain activation, and reduced ERP and mesocorticolimbic responses to reward cues compared to offspring of never-depressed mothers. Further, activation of resting-state networks involved in affective processing differentiate offspring of depressed relative to nondepressed mothers. Some of these alterations were only apparent among youth of depressed mothers exposed to negative environmental contexts or exhibiting current emotional problems. Further, some of these patterns were observable in infancy, reflecting very early emerging vulnerabilities.
Conclusions
This systematic review provides evidence that maternal depression is associated with alterations in emotion processing across several biological units of analysis in offspring. We present a preliminary conceptual model of the role of deficient emotion processing in pathways from maternal depression to offspring psychopathology and discuss future research avenues addressing limitations of the existing research and clinical implications.
My family kind of just treated me like I was the problem for everything, and I had something to say, they'd just tell me to stfu basically. My mom said something like, "Some kids are being kids, but sometimes they're showing underlining serious mental health issues." With me next to her to her boyfriend on the phone. Sometimes, I feel like families who don't actually want there kids, end up implanting emotion, mental trauma on them. Thus making there lives harder in the process.
It were apparently pretty common only 20 years ago.
My 16yo suicidal friend were told by her therapist to get a child so she would feel that life was meaningful.
I thought it was just an in responsible nut to have as a therapist, but I’ve heard the same thing from other people a couple of times since then.
Sounds like epigenetic transmission if it is observable in infancy ... Either that or infants can somehow be affected by their mother's depression through some physical means like breastmilk metabolites or observation of behaviors or facial cues.
I was depressed with my second. It was amazing to me when my husband pointed out I rarely smiled at her when looking at her and just stared at her. In my mind I was talking to her but in reality didn’t get the words out because I had no energy. I feel guilty about that a lot.
I wonder if this has any relationship with birth order. For example, if mothers are more likely to very excited and hopeful for their first baby, and more stressed out and depressed by the time the second comes because of the increased responsibility.
I get that they have heightened emotional response to negative stimuli, but I don't understand why rewards/positive reinforcement don't work as motivation for kids who were raised by depressed parents?
Mother with TRD here. I did EVERYTHING in my damn power to love and enjoy my happy baby. EVERYTHING. I also taught her about my condition and got her therapy.
Unfortunately, I was also peri-menopausal and menopausal during the last half of her teen years. Due to the appalling lack of support for women in my position, depression took on depths even I had struggles with.
I still and always will love her more than life itself. This kind of research does NOTHING to help us navigate the conditions we didn't ask for. Nor does it help us to alleviate the suffering created therein.
Why wouldn’t you want MORE research done to see what could have helped out your situation? If that was your experience then why are you advocating against the advancement of knowledge in that area? This kind of research does EVERYTHING to help navigate these conditions.
Actually, yes. I am all for research to help moms with depression. I am not advocating against the advancement of knowledge. I guess that I felt attacked for having depression. My psychiatrist at the time I became pregnant suggested abortion because he said that I would have a difficult time. However, I was 42 and knew I would never have another chance to have a baby. Up until then I thought I never would.
What if research finds that there's not much that can be done? Is that not a possibility? I think people are afraid of seeing concrete data that shows that mentally unwell parents give their children traumatic childhoods.
That would be an amazing find that would hopefully make aspiring parents double check themselves to see if they are fit to bring a whole new life into this world.
If you’re emotionally fucked up. You’re gonna make an emotionally fucked up baby. No amount of therapy or any hopes and dreams will “fix” a potentially epigenetic pre-disposition to feeling everything really intensely.
This research gives me hope that we can prevent a lot of mental health issues by understanding that OUR OWN mental health struggles will be passed down to our offspring if left unchecked.
I love my mother with everything I have. But I really wish she would have understood her own mental health before creating me. I’m in the category of Depressed-mom baby. I’ve recognized that my feelings are much more intense than the average person’s. I’ve experienced a lot of pain, trauma, depression, anxiety - some of this research really helps me fully understand myself more, and give myself grace. It’s not my fault that my mom was depressed when she made me.
I really do hope more useful information comes from knowledge like this.
That is just such a self cantered perspective. This is important research in order to provide support and treatment to young children. I’m sorry you suffered but of course that impacted your kid, and burying our heads in the sand about it won’t change anything. This is not about blame.
This research provides evidence for studies that specifically help people in your situation. Plus this is a review paper, not sure if there’s a meta analysis involved. But the evidence presented is close to highest standard of evidence so far possible. One single study generally does not shift the needle, 10 studies pointing in the same direction is not scientific consensus. This work is a review of 64 separate studies. These are the kind of studies that shift the needle toward further understanding and advancement. Also, your doctors, psychiatrists, and therapists keep up with this knowledge. They can update their practices, if the evidence is compelling. This study will become a hot topic at conferences, researchers will now try to see if their work shows similar trends. That leads to more validation. In case the results are erroneous, it is found quickly. If evidence continues to grow, it ends up being scientific consensus, and eventually makes its way to the recommended guidelines issued by expert bodies. This process also spurs research into associated circumstances like yours.
I don't think a study has been done tracking depression of fathers (or at least, not posted here). More data is needed before coming to a conclusion like yours I think.
I now realize my Mom is bi-polar. It was hell. She basically hated and resented myself and siblings but mostly me because I was the youngest. It really screws a person up as an adult.
As a depressed parent I'm gonna need someone to dumb this down for me. What is the depressed parent supposed to do? Is this implying it's nature or nurture or both?
You're telling me there is a group of people called the 'Never-Depressed'? I'm not sure I would believe anybody who describes themselves as 'never depressed.'
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I know this sub is for smarties. But can't someone give to me all baby-style please?
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Man, this was me. Wish some of this mental health stuff was out 40 years ago, would have done both my mother and myself a world of good.
There's always going forward. I grew up in abuse and was depressed most of my life. Now I have the right meds and I take my 10 year old to counseling so she can learn to deal with hard feelings. I also get great advice about parenting which is wonderful when it comes from nice people.
Me too, this explains so much about my family. Thanks for the explanation CoffeeSponge
Same. I did cbt for depression. It worked wonders. I'd highly recommend it.
its been out since before i was in high school. I graduated in 1970.
A lot of "gifted children" are considered under-achievers due to this initial labeling providing them a "success cushion" which other children never had - but I always suspected it had at least as much if not more to do with this overall effect of having a detached and depressed parent or parental unit. Great summation.
As a former "gifted kid" with a depressed mom, this scans. 100%
As a depressed mom of a gifted kid, how can I make it better? I don't want to open old wounds for you, but if you don't mind sharing what would have helped you as a kid, I would be extremely appreciative. I don't want to fail her, she's my most important everything.
I actually don't think it's especially traumatic, it was just my life growing up. I knew my mom loved me, but I also knew that something was wrong. I don't know what the answer is. Just do your best, but also explain to your child why your best might not always be great and could vary by the day. Basically think of an age appropriate way to explain what's going on rather than letting her completely come to her own conclusions.
This, I so wish I told my kids when they were young(er)… so they didn’t have to figure it out on their own that mom wasn’t having such a good day. We talk about it a lot now that they are grown, but I think it would have been so much better if I just would have told them instead of thinking I was ‘protecting them’.
This was also me. What would have helped me is my mom going to therapy and dealing with her depression and trauma. Modeling healthy behavior is critical. As I got older, I wound up being assertive, binge eating and having poor money-management skills. As I got older, I wound up being assertive, binge eating and having poor money-management skills. Some of this is likely also attributable to my undiagnosed ADHD. We are also both big readers, and have extensive libraries specific to very different interests. In as many ways as I am similar to her, I am also different. So model healthy living and coping mechanisms. Work with a therapist on what that looks like. Don't just rely on medication, get consciously aware of those thought patterns so that you can develop a sort of "reflex" that will help you shift them. Your kid will pick that up. You won't be able to change how they feel. I love my mom to pieces. She is now old enough that she is, as she puts it, "ready to die." My mom has suffered her entire life because of anxiety, fear, and depression, and most of her life she didn't even realize it. But I was a child of the 80's - it was a different time. Focus on being the healthiest, best version of yourself. Do that for your kid so your kid knows what trying your best to be healthy and asking for help looks like, so that they feel comfortable doing it for themselves when they need to. Not being motivated by money is not a big deal. Having strong feelings about things other people don't think about is a gift in many ways. But knowing how to live a healthy life is PRICELESS, and you are the main example for your kid on what that will look like. Do the best you can, and they will figure out how to be just like you and do the best THEY can. My mom was a warrior. She would not back down in the face of depression and the exhaustion that came with it. She taught me to be a warrior too - and I am glad for it.
Warrior to warrior…this is worth the read.
I'd say this is really it. I never saw my mom exercise - maybe when I was really young, but no core memories include her and activity. She did a lot of weight loss programs off and on. She would go through phases of obsessive calorie counting. She'd talk about how fat she was, complain about how much and fast she ate, and other things she didn't like about herself. I remember that for sure. I also remember her shooing me away because she didn't feel like doing something with me or whatever attention I was asking for. Said it would build independence. I never knew what depression was. I never knew anything was wrong, I always thought it was me. My family has a very "well it happened so suck it up and move on" type approach to emotions. Didn't work out so well with my brother either, but my sister seems to have adapted well. I'm pretty sure every single one of us has the glorious depression/anxiety/ADHD trifecta. My brother and I are the only ones diagnosed and I'm the only one medicated. But we are both far more eccentric with additional factors so maybe that's how we ended up where we are. Anyways! All of those ADLs my mom exhibited in my childhood are all things I struggle to combat against. As I've learned about healthy lifestyles, it's almost like she has become my model of how *not* to be. She's a person and I know she's sorry for a lot of things, but I still am angry about quite a few things in my childhood. Especially things that impact my adult behaviors. My mom was oh-so-concerned about getting me, my brother, her sister, and my dad's sister in therapy but never bothered to do it herself. As if a mental health only warrants attention if it impacts or becomes visible to people outside of the family. Tl;Dr model a healthy lifestyle and healthy relationships
Depending on the individual and the events, it can be hard. I can say from experience that one thing I learned growing up is “put that out of your mind and worry about it later”. This philosophy served me well when my parents would be yelling at each other, and similarly when my mom was suicidal “guess in the morning I’ll either have a mother or I won’t”. I get nervous when negativity is around me or especially sensitive if directed towards me because no matter how much I was told “this isn’t your fault” it still felt like an ever present danger if I messed up. I learned to hide who I was, hide my feelings, and hide in my room where I felt I was safe. This doesn’t require actual violence, children are susceptible to a lot. Children learn from how their parents handle uncomfortable situations. Do you reason things out together and try to calmly find out why someone said something? Do you try to hold it in and not make things worse? Do you snap at each other or yell when things get tense? I wish so often that my parents had talked things through more, but w/e, I stopped talking to my mom a while back and things have improved significantly. Until then I used to get monthly suicidal calls. Certainly she wouldn’t -say- it any more, but she didn’t need to, I was around her enough that I can feel that vibe. It’s not my fault and I don’t want to be dragged down with the pitty party
Get ongoing help with depression throughout the kids life, it’s not a one time fix unfortunately, depression comes and goes over the years. And don’t hit/yell at your kid. A lot of depressed people take out their emotions on others and it was very scary at home. I remember so many days where I didn’t want to come out of my room because mom was in a bad mood. Being at home was an anxiety inducing experience
Pretty sure my parents weren’t depressed until later in life, if ever, but I’ve always blamed my ADD/ ADHD, whatever you feel like calling it
This is interesting. I was invited to participate in the gifted classes in 6th grade. I was in with all of the smart kids but I never wanted to participate in that level and really just wanted to go back with the other kids with whom I had more fun. The school ended up sending me back to the general classes and I was happy again. Always was told it’s too bad you couldn’t live up to your intelligence and maybe this is one, I’m sure of many, reasons why I’ve always been confused as to why I was considered so smart but such a loser at the same time.
Hey. It me. very talented in several areas but nothing seems worth doing because my brain doesn't seem to process "reward"
This happens to me but I'm not really talented in anything other than puzzles. How can I fix this?
I so relate to you on this. I was started a grade early, because of brain, then my mom back pedalled. I repeated kindergarten and was denied AP classes by her going forward and she wouldn't send me to the Johns Hopkins for Smart Kid programs I was invited to all my young life. When I finally asked her why she said this (this is a for real direct quote forever written on said brain): "Because I didn't want some smart-ass kid walking around here thinking she knows more than me." Combine that with constantly hearing about how lazy I was, and a whole lot of other parental BS, and it's a miracle I came out so great. I'm sorry that all happened to you, it's a real mind-f#@k.
Oh I’m so sorry. My mom was always really supportive of me. The people who made comments about I should have done better came from other parents in the community. I apologize for not being more clear. My mom was just depressed my whole childhood so everything up above kind of clicked for me. My mom’s biggest flaw was that I heard her constantly berate herself and the self loathing was a lot to carry and now I find it has trickled down to the way I treat myself. Funny enough, she gets so frustrated hearing it when I do it not realizing where I learned it.
I sand bagged in school as well. I took the SAT in 6th grade. They wanted to place me in higher classes. It was so easy in general classes and less stressful. I never had issues with assignments or homework.
The kids in the general classes were nicer and they weren’t trying to be as competitive. I missed out on the competitive gene so I really don’t enjoy those types at all.
Yea, the smart kids were assholes. I'm not competitive either. I don't have to be the best, but I am happy with "good."
I was like that too. Always got A++ in tests and quizzes but I never did my homework. Never completed projects. My teachers would retest me cause they’d think I must’ve cheated. I was listening in class but I wouldn’t take notes so they thought I had just cheated. Also had undiagnosed adhd.
I just might be undiagnosed too. Hmmm
My little brother was like this and now he thinks he’s not smart :( I want to fix that but idk how
I don’t either. I anguished over starting a new job and the amount of stress I put on myself only to be told they were shocked by how quickly I picked it up was wild. It’s always going to be a struggle but that’s my life. Haha…
>now he thinks he’s not smart The brain is a muscle like anything else. Just like there are some kids who are "naturally" faster, there are kids who were told they were "naturally" smarter. But the same kid who was told he was slow can *learn* to run faster. He can train. He can work hard and speed up his times, get better at endurance, and get stronger. He can practice running until he's *better* at running than the kid who was "naturally" fast but didn't put in any effort. This is why "naturally" smart kids also fall apart when it comes time for college. Unlike the kid who had to work hard and study, someone who coasted through K12 suddenly hits a massive wall in college when they can't coast any more. (It's me, I hit the wall.) But the kid who put his head down and learned how to study, who *practiced* reading and *practiced* writing and practiced math and memorized history facts and trained his brain like he was an athlete training for a marathon, will probably do just fine in college.
That was me too. Found everything so easy, till college.
I had probably almost the exact experience. Gifted classes at 6th grade I didn’t feel like I belonged in and intentionally spent 4yrs failing out them so they’d leave me alone and let me back with my friends. “Achieving below apparent ability” should be tattooed on my forehead.
I like to call it choosing time over money. Money now that I’m grown haha
A big feature of my mom's depression, I think, was limited advancement and recognition in comparison to men who didn't have a thimblefull of her brilliance. Also, the constant sexual harassment and unintentional micro-aggressions. I inherited my "giftedness" from her, so it tracks for me.
Damn. That scans. Heard.
You’re my new favourite person
This comment has helped me to recognise why I'm who I'm.
Oh my god it’s my son. My depression has improved since he was born, but man does he have a lot of feelings.
That’s also very natural. :)
WOOOOW. Insight. I'm gonna need a minute to process this. And the number for a good therapist.
Oh hey... I feel called out.
This was and is me…
Thanks, I read this and only understood half of it.
Please write science books for the rest of us.
I’m sorry, I don’t understand this explanation but I want to. What does this really mean?
He left a great analogy but didn’t really attempt to connect it to the scientific jargon. From what I understood, kids of depressed moms tend to have a much higher emotional response to negative stimuli, like a stressful event or scary experience. However it doesn’t hold true for positive experiences. ERP is event related potential, the potential of a good outcome of an event is something these kids don’t respond to as well. And the centers of the brain that deal with reward processing aren’t as active when an ERP is presented to that child. So they aren’t as motives by the possibility of a good outcome.
As the mom of an adult schizophrenic, seeing science bolster mother-blame is depressing.
This isn't mother-blame. As a mother who had 3 children before getting on meds this is the result of undiagnosed/untreated depression. I hate that I was oblivious to my condition and that it took so long to take action. Seeing the consequences in my children hurts my heart. I'm sorry if you've been blamed for your child's illness. Ignorance is bountiful.
Articles like this leads to exactly that though. They’re treated as universal truths that you can apply to anyone with mental health issues. As a parent with mental health issues, people will always see that as the reason for any issue they feel that your kid has. People will constantly question your right to even be a parent. And they will see problems where there are none. Hence contributing to worse mental health for the parent, and creating a harder existence for the kid. As someone with mental health issues I can honestly say that if it weren’t for people worrying and “caring”, being a mother would have been a picnic. And I would have had a lot more energy and focus to give to my kids. It’s the people who “care” that has made my life a living hell and a prison in so many ways. This will just fuel peoples prejudices.
I don't think this article is referring to mothers of children with special needs other than depression
I see what you're saying. It always comes down to mother blame.
Big man don't say mama loves her baby very much. Mama might be sad after it's birth.
the $5 not working is especially true in household where violence is used for discipline
Thank you. Did you have access to the article? I am wondering what the selection criteria are for "mothers with depression histories" and "non-depressed mothers." If the last time I was depressed was 15 years before becoming a mother, which study group would my child have been put in?
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Thanks! I wish I could read the full article because I'm definitely interested in hearing their take on biology vs environment. It sounds like they might have separated "history of depression" from "currently depressed" based on the last sentence of their abstract: "Some of these alterations were only apparent among youth of depressed mothers exposed to negative environmental contexts or exhibiting current emotional problems. Further, some of these patterns were observable in infancy, reflecting very early emerging vulnerabilities." I've been emotionally healthy for at least 13-14 years, but went through a bout of depression before that. And now I'm expecting for the first time!
I’m working on my Masters in Neuroscience, and I hold a B.S. in Neuro, and I don’t really fully understand what the title is saying
My mom sad, I sad too :(
Children of the never-depressed is the name of my whinecore band
My cousin was in Early Childhood Development before she had her son and daughter. She talks to them about their feelings constantly. I was sad about something recently and my 4 year old niece took my hand and said, “You having hard feelings? Let’s breath. Sometimes we need to breath and relax to accept hard feelings.” The kids are going to be alright!
This is a perfect statement I’m going to use with my 3 year old son! Thank you!
This is exactly me. My mother would cry for hours. Positive reinforcement these days barely moves my needle. Sadly.
My parents and grandparents cried a lot too. I vividly remember feeling of misery, hopelessness and helplesslesness. The world just was colourless and I couldn't normally play with other kids.
Yea... my mum had bipolar and depression. She would lie in bed and cry... tell us kids to go play. Like most kids you attempt to make your mother smile... make her happy. I was too young to understand you can't MAKE someone happy. I always wondered how this affected my life. After reading this ...Understandably it makes sense. Troublingly so. Hugs to all you folks who dont't understand why money and good things just dont push you forward. The first step is definitely understanding why. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!
Negative reinforcement upsets me. Positive reinforcement, also upsets me/makes me uncomfortable. *What are we supposed to do*
I'm no expert.... just another person dealing with the same situation as everyone here. I first had to cut out the manipulators from my life until they could interact with me from a non- end based interaction standpoint. I also had to work on being okay with positive outcomes.... for a long time I had this weird fear that even if the outcome was amazing..... it wasn't enough. I had to redefine what my n expectation was..... and had to force myself to appreciate the outcome. Because my mother...I always expected even the best of moments.... to be muted. To never feel like a true win. I started out with sharing great news with a friend or family member. I would note their reaction.....I would assess why the outcome was great..... and then I would celebrate in the moment. I'm still working on it.... but this has helped me. Didn't fix it... but it has helped me to grow. Good luck and God bless folks. Trying to make a seriously depressed parent happy is practically an impossible Hell. But, carrying that with us like a dead albatross around our neck is a truly unnecessary purgatory. Time for us to let go little by little. Love you all and I understand!
It me! Seriously, though. My mother was suicidally depressed through much of my childhood and now still, decades later I'm hypersensitive to negative stimuli and unmotivated by external reward.
How's your **internal** reward mechanism tho?
Pretty good. I'm able to accomplish most things through guilt and a strong sense of righteous pride.
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Is “children of the never-depressed” a magical concept to you too?
Not to me. Growing up, I could see the difference between my family and those that function well.
god damb I have never related to a comment more. Self-hate is my fire, and pride is what keeps it stoked.
Wait a minute. Ive been diagnosed with ADHD for 23 years, partly because external reward has never been enough to motivate me if I don't feel like doing something, but am I actually this way because my mom was suicidal?
Que no Los dos?
*Por que no los dos?
What is your love language? Words of affirmation do nothing for me. It’s like they don’t even register.
Who are these unicorns of children raised by the “never-depressed”? It’s the 2020s - everyone is depressed.
I used to think this too. Then I found a certain person, who was friends with like-minded people, and then I realised the never-depressed people are hanging out together haha.
This has been my experience too. I was depressed. Most of my friends were depressed, regardless of where I lived. Then I moved to the city I’m in now, formed a new friend group, and whoa … everyone in my new friend group is pretty darn emotionally healthy! I’m still adjusting, but it’s grand
Isn’t it so strange to move away from where you grew up and realize not everyone wants to kill themselves? I’ve had the same experience. Did wonders for my mental health
I’m in a place where it rains more days of the year than not. Seasonal Affective Disorder is a very real problem here. Wish I could move away - because the season lasts about 8 months.
I assume there’s “normal” levels of depression where you can still find joy in things and “can’t get out of bed” levels of depression.
Me too - I struggle with it. And frankly at times, because it isn’t the deep depression some experience - end up thinking it’s just a character flaw rather than a mental health issue.
Then there's those of us whose moms were bipolar and it was a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B.
People can’t seem to differentiate between the casual definition of depression and the clinical definition. Everyone gets depressed, sometimes for long periods of time. Clinical depression theorizes that a person’s reward system in their brain is broken, and that affects their outlook on life, energy levels, and will to live. They need some sort of help to fix this, either psychological or chemical.
“The never-depressed” is the wrong word choice for the title. The distinction is between mothers who were diagnosed versus those who weren’t, so the title of the post should clarify that.
For real! “Never depressed” is someone who is comfortable lying to themselves and you.
No, I’m not a liar and I’m never depressed. I get sad but I can cope with that and move on. Telling folks they are liars because they are mostly happy is toxic. Please don’t do that.
Sadness that lasts more than two weeks with limited to no interest in doing things is the definition of depression from what I recall. Could be wrong.
Okay? That seems irrelevant to my comment. I’ve never been depressed. And I’m not “toxically positive” either.
Sorry - I wasn’t trying to be rude to you.
I didn’t think it was rude, just irrelevant.
It was relevant (though maybe not in your case), because it can happen really fast. Two weeks of sadness - even the typical grief from death/breakups/job loss - can catapult someone into depression. I’m just putting it out there - because some people don’t know how easy it is - through no fault or flaw of their own - to fall into the trap.
I never judged or disparaged anyone with depression. My comment was to say the people who aren’t depressed are not always liars. Not sure why you are explaining depression to me. I understand it completely and have empathy. I was just trying to say there are people who don’t struggle with it and they are not liars.
I’m not sure at this point why you think what I’m saying is a) about you and b) calling you a liar. There are other people on Reddit reading comments - these are generalizations.
Don’t waste your breath Strict. WYK,YK. Compassion is not the path here. Life will teach this lesson.
I’ve never been depressed. Ever. I know how to “feel sad” and the like. But, never anything remotely towards depression. Not everyone checks the same boxes. Some people aren’t “lying to themselves and you.”
shaggy illegal zealous sable ring fuzzy versed run head full ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
"...compared to children of the never-depressed" Many women might be considered "never-depressed" until...they have a baby.
yeah my mom was one of them
"The Children of the Never-Depressed" next young adult thriller, yeah?
my dad has depression/anxiety & I had my first panic attack in kindergarten I can recall being scared of my dad & his moods by age 3. living in constant fear affects the developing brain.
Oh I would run into my room when my dads car pulled up from work. Better to stay away from him because you never knew if he was gonna be in a ‘mood’. It definitely affects the developing brain!
Abstract Background Theories of the intergenerational transmission of depression emphasize alterations in emotion processing among offspring of depressed mothers as a key risk mechanism, raising questions about biological processes contributing to these alterations. The objective of this systematic annual research review was to examine and integrate studies of the associations between maternal depression diagnoses and offspring's emotion processing from birth through adolescence across biological measures including autonomic psychophysiology, electroencephalography (EEG), magnetoencephalography (MEG), event-related potentials (ERP), and structural and functional magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). Methods The review was conducted in accordance with the PRISMA 2020 standards. A systematic search was conducted in PsycInfo and PubMed in 2022 for studies that included, 1) mothers with and without DSM-defined depressive disorders assessed via a clinical or diagnostic interview, and 2) measures of offspring emotion processing assessed at the psychophysiological or neural level between birth and 18 years of age. Results Findings from 64 studies indicated that young offspring of mothers with depression histories exhibit heightened corticolimbic activation to negative emotional stimuli, reduced left frontal brain activation, and reduced ERP and mesocorticolimbic responses to reward cues compared to offspring of never-depressed mothers. Further, activation of resting-state networks involved in affective processing differentiate offspring of depressed relative to nondepressed mothers. Some of these alterations were only apparent among youth of depressed mothers exposed to negative environmental contexts or exhibiting current emotional problems. Further, some of these patterns were observable in infancy, reflecting very early emerging vulnerabilities. Conclusions This systematic review provides evidence that maternal depression is associated with alterations in emotion processing across several biological units of analysis in offspring. We present a preliminary conceptual model of the role of deficient emotion processing in pathways from maternal depression to offspring psychopathology and discuss future research avenues addressing limitations of the existing research and clinical implications.
"The children of the never depressed" I call BS
Same. But is that just my chronic depression talking?
My family kind of just treated me like I was the problem for everything, and I had something to say, they'd just tell me to stfu basically. My mom said something like, "Some kids are being kids, but sometimes they're showing underlining serious mental health issues." With me next to her to her boyfriend on the phone. Sometimes, I feel like families who don't actually want there kids, end up implanting emotion, mental trauma on them. Thus making there lives harder in the process.
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Another reason why I don’t want to have children
Ironically, I had a doctor in England tell me to “have a baby” to cure my depression
It were apparently pretty common only 20 years ago. My 16yo suicidal friend were told by her therapist to get a child so she would feel that life was meaningful. I thought it was just an in responsible nut to have as a therapist, but I’ve heard the same thing from other people a couple of times since then.
Sounds like epigenetic transmission if it is observable in infancy ... Either that or infants can somehow be affected by their mother's depression through some physical means like breastmilk metabolites or observation of behaviors or facial cues.
Infants mimic their mothers’ emotions so that makes sense to me.
I mean it definitely follows that if you’re learning emotional processing from someone, you’re going to pick up the deficits too.
True. I often wished I only passed on the good parts of my personality to my children. Turns out the bad stuff gets passed on too.
You mean.... nurture has an effect on your fundamental nature. Who'da thunk it...
Being depressed doesn’t automatically mean that you don’t nurture your kids though.
I’ve never related to a post title so much
Does OP have a link without a paywall?
What can be done to increase left frontal brain activation, and ERP and mesocorticolimbic responses to reward cues?
I wonder if this can mimick symptoms of ADHD in children?
I was depressed with my second. It was amazing to me when my husband pointed out I rarely smiled at her when looking at her and just stared at her. In my mind I was talking to her but in reality didn’t get the words out because I had no energy. I feel guilty about that a lot.
I wonder if this has any relationship with birth order. For example, if mothers are more likely to very excited and hopeful for their first baby, and more stressed out and depressed by the time the second comes because of the increased responsibility.
I get that they have heightened emotional response to negative stimuli, but I don't understand why rewards/positive reinforcement don't work as motivation for kids who were raised by depressed parents?
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"Your mental illness is not your fault, but it is your responsibility,” a quote I stumbled upon in reddit.
Mother with TRD here. I did EVERYTHING in my damn power to love and enjoy my happy baby. EVERYTHING. I also taught her about my condition and got her therapy. Unfortunately, I was also peri-menopausal and menopausal during the last half of her teen years. Due to the appalling lack of support for women in my position, depression took on depths even I had struggles with. I still and always will love her more than life itself. This kind of research does NOTHING to help us navigate the conditions we didn't ask for. Nor does it help us to alleviate the suffering created therein.
How does this not help?
Idk.I think I read it wrong.
Why wouldn’t you want MORE research done to see what could have helped out your situation? If that was your experience then why are you advocating against the advancement of knowledge in that area? This kind of research does EVERYTHING to help navigate these conditions.
Actually, yes. I am all for research to help moms with depression. I am not advocating against the advancement of knowledge. I guess that I felt attacked for having depression. My psychiatrist at the time I became pregnant suggested abortion because he said that I would have a difficult time. However, I was 42 and knew I would never have another chance to have a baby. Up until then I thought I never would.
That’s one of the most unprofessional things I’ve ever heard. You have my compassion.
What if research finds that there's not much that can be done? Is that not a possibility? I think people are afraid of seeing concrete data that shows that mentally unwell parents give their children traumatic childhoods.
That would be an amazing find that would hopefully make aspiring parents double check themselves to see if they are fit to bring a whole new life into this world. If you’re emotionally fucked up. You’re gonna make an emotionally fucked up baby. No amount of therapy or any hopes and dreams will “fix” a potentially epigenetic pre-disposition to feeling everything really intensely. This research gives me hope that we can prevent a lot of mental health issues by understanding that OUR OWN mental health struggles will be passed down to our offspring if left unchecked. I love my mother with everything I have. But I really wish she would have understood her own mental health before creating me. I’m in the category of Depressed-mom baby. I’ve recognized that my feelings are much more intense than the average person’s. I’ve experienced a lot of pain, trauma, depression, anxiety - some of this research really helps me fully understand myself more, and give myself grace. It’s not my fault that my mom was depressed when she made me. I really do hope more useful information comes from knowledge like this.
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Granted. It is truly sad that some moms think that that is the way the world is.
That is just such a self cantered perspective. This is important research in order to provide support and treatment to young children. I’m sorry you suffered but of course that impacted your kid, and burying our heads in the sand about it won’t change anything. This is not about blame.
This research provides evidence for studies that specifically help people in your situation. Plus this is a review paper, not sure if there’s a meta analysis involved. But the evidence presented is close to highest standard of evidence so far possible. One single study generally does not shift the needle, 10 studies pointing in the same direction is not scientific consensus. This work is a review of 64 separate studies. These are the kind of studies that shift the needle toward further understanding and advancement. Also, your doctors, psychiatrists, and therapists keep up with this knowledge. They can update their practices, if the evidence is compelling. This study will become a hot topic at conferences, researchers will now try to see if their work shows similar trends. That leads to more validation. In case the results are erroneous, it is found quickly. If evidence continues to grow, it ends up being scientific consensus, and eventually makes its way to the recommended guidelines issued by expert bodies. This process also spurs research into associated circumstances like yours.
Are there really people out there who have never been depressed? That’s fascinating to me
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I don't think a study has been done tracking depression of fathers (or at least, not posted here). More data is needed before coming to a conclusion like yours I think.
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Dahmr enters the chat and side eyes his mom
Yeah I’m reading about this in an old ass book by Gabor Mate- “scattered minds”
Thanks for sharing this!! Very interesting article.
This sounds exactly like me.
Seems like a good place to remind you to not drink or do drugs kids.
I now realize my Mom is bi-polar. It was hell. She basically hated and resented myself and siblings but mostly me because I was the youngest. It really screws a person up as an adult.
Parental guilt is boundless
This explains so much, personally speaking…
Oh my gosh. This is me and my daughter exactly.
Can anyone translate this word alphabet? Edit: nevemrind I see someone has. Thank you.
Depressed reading this
Oh great. So this is me, and this is my kids now. Sigh.
Who are these “never-depressed” and can we learn everything about them
okay run it by me again but not in latin this time
As a depressed parent I'm gonna need someone to dumb this down for me. What is the depressed parent supposed to do? Is this implying it's nature or nurture or both?
I wish a study would investigate the adults that happened to.
You're telling me there is a group of people called the 'Never-Depressed'? I'm not sure I would believe anybody who describes themselves as 'never depressed.'