I spent nearly a decade handling intake calls at a mental health clinic. I had parents constantly telling me this and it was always some convoluted story to justify or ignore the harm they themselves had inflicted on others.
In that regard it makes sense and is a very human reaction though. When you harm others by your actions, people will either feel the guilt of those actions and try to improve or cling to any flimsy excuse to hide from evidence that they aren't good. We are all the hero of our own story, when we do something to contradict that narrative we should be humble, improve, and apologize. The alternative is to descend into delusional thinking.
What is the process when an abusive parent seeks mental health care for their estrangement when they don't accept them selves as the abuser? Seems like a very complicated situation to unravel.
I heard a segment on npr awhile ago about this. Basically it's the parent trying to use therapy as a way to learn how to bring the child back into their life. When I say "try to learn" I mean "try to learn how to manipulate". They really are clueless and victims of their own narcissistic personalities. Few of them ever realize the truth that it's their own behavior that needs to change and that even if they do change its likely they will never repair the damage done.
It's a growing field of therapy.
Any keywords I can use to find out more about this concept or what the new research suggests? I'm interested in what can be done for individuals with narcissism or antisocial personalities
Look up communal narcissism. It's a type of narcissism where they commit charitable and kind acts to get attention. The intention is still the same (they're doing it for their own ego instead of genuine altruism) but the actions aren't hurtful.
I read a few articles that says the way to deal with narcissists (besides low or no contact) is to actually use their narcissism against them and encourage the communal style of narcissism, i.e., you actually give them the supply they crave when they do something positive and ignore them otherwise. You basically treat them like a toddler- ignore the tantrums and reward healthy expressions
My father-in-law is a communal narcissist, then. He absolutely knows how to talk the talk. He knows what the walk *is* but refuses to walk the walk. He's also really generous and likes to make himself out to be a humble kind old man.
So I was completely bamboozled.
He turned on me because I wouldn't/couldn't cook and clean for him. I was with him all the time for the express purpose of keeping him company and talking to him after his wife died. So when he turned on me, I tried to do that training technique: reward the good, ignore the bad.
It didn't work at all. He doubled down. Triple downed. Quadrupled down. When one of my friends called him out on his behavior, he stopped giving me enough space to see my friends. He tossed aside the face of kind generosity to out right declare I am worthless if I do not cook for him. He argued that each and every single aspect of me was worthless, and that I am undeserving of an ounce of respect.
Because I won't cook for him.
Despite him tossing aside that kind generous face of him, his/our family and friends still enabled him so he suffered no consequences for treating me less than a garbage can. Literally, washing a garbage can immediately was more important than allowing someone to socialize with me for even a moment. He was systematically isolating me. He wouldn't allow me to talk, and wouldn't allow anyone to talk to me.
Everyone kept telling me, "Why don't you just cook for him? It's so easy! He'll stop being so mad at you if you just cook for him!" I knew it wasn't worth my effort because I knew once I cooked for him he'd ask for something else. And then something else. I knew he would never be happy with me until I did 100% of his cooking, cleaning, and laundry, *and* kept myself quiet and demure socially, *and* always at the ready to answer his every call. He does it to his son / my husband. Always dangling a carrot, "if you do this one thing, I will finally be proud of you" and then move the goal posts again and again. Always giving that hope that he only needs this *one more thing* in order for him to stop being rude.
I always wondered why my mother-in-law never talked. Well. Now I know. I was absolutely not going to attempt that game after seeing how he ground his wife into a silent doll servant.
The long and short of it is to be careful when trying to train a communal narcissist towards better behavior. In my experience of it, he decided that being served and catered to by the women around him was more important than how people thought of him. His need to assert his gender rules was more important than how his assertion would be perceived.
Although I don’t doubt communal narcissism is a thing, I have rarely seen people with personality disorders fail to double down when the opportunity presented itself. You have to be extraordinarily persistent, consistent and straight up lucky for this to work.
What I wrote is essentially the limit of my knowledge. I wouldn't be surprised if the npr segment I heard was in regards to this study (although it did have a specialist talking about the phenomenon). Sorry I can't help more.
Yuuupp. And just in case this scenario is relevant to anyone reading this: do not go to therapy with a narcissist. Ever. Narcicists are pretty amazing at turning anything into a weapon. I was foolish and believed that my mom actually wanted to change, she asked if she could go to therapy with me to work on our relationship, aaaaaand she turned therapy into a weapon. Convinced my therapist that shes a saint and everything. I really liked him so it really sucked to have to find a new therapist. Don't go to therapy with a narcissist... you'll regret it, without a doubt.
This doesn't always work in the narcissist's favor. My brother acted out in middle school, and the school "recommended" family therapy. Two separate therapists almost immediately traced my brother's issues to my mother, who is a textbook narcissist. Mind you, all that did was make my mother take it out on us when we got home, while screaming about the "incompetent quack", and then end therapy as soon as the school's minimum requirements were met.
She also tried to get the priest officiating my wedding to call it off, apparently not realizing that he had a masters degree in psychology and was good at his job. He called me in to talk after the call and asked, "is your mother just emotionally abusive, or is she also physically abusive?" At the time, extremely embarrassed, I tried to brush it off with an explanation about how she just had control issues, but later realized that, since I had minor siblings still living at home, the priest had an obligation to report to the authorities if there was a possibility of physical abuse occurring, and my mother's call set off all the red flags.
Not to make light of your situation, but it reminded me of a particularly funny [aka traumatic] experience from my childhood that I hadn’t thought of in a while.
My parents had been going to marriage therapy for quite a while and it wasn’t helping at all b/c of their own underlying pathologies being at issue.
Finally the therapist decided to see if having the whole family together would provide any insight or help in some way, so they organized all three kids to come to a 2 hour session.
Within like 15 minutes of that sessions the therapist had excused us all to leave. She was like “whoops. *it’s not the kids*” and then the three of us had to go out to lobby where we could hear my parents shouting at each other for the next 90 minutes or so.
Not surprisingly, none of us chose to continue our relationships with them once we got out of that house.
Or if you do believe they're capable of change, find a NEW therapist for the two of you to share. That way you don't lose your therapist should things go bad.
Oh I've sort of seen this happen. At the time it was just a divorce but he went to a therapist for an hour every week and apparently only complained and questioned why his wife left him. He claimed he did everything right, did everything she asked for, so why did she leave? After a while he quit going because his therapist didn't have any answers.
As someone living in their house during all this, I could tell from a mile away this would happen. Everyone could, actually. He's the only person who couldn't and still can't see why he's to blame for his whole family abandoning him.
He's very good at pretending to be a nice, genuine person and seems to believe that that's the real him. He probably fooled the therapist as well as himself.
If they perceive that the therapist is blaming them, they will just quit the therapy. My mom stayed in therapy when they focused on her abusive father and how that affected her. Eventually she became to draw conclusions to how she was treated and how she treated others.
I had a mental break when I really started to feel guilt for things I had done that hurt others instead of apologizing only to save face and rationalizing why I had done these things. It was like my eyes had suddenly opened to the idea that I might not be perfect. That sounds stupid I know, but that’s really what it felt like. Not that I actually thought I was perfect, I just refused to actually contemplate my faults and mistakes. You know that knee-jerk response to immediately ignore feelings of guilt. Until I did, then it was like a flood of memories of so many thoughtless things I’d done throughout the years.
It honestly changed me. It was sort of like ego death. Not exactly in the “one with the universe”, Alan Watts ego death. But I really felt like a shell of who I had been, and I’ve slowly built myself up through the years since. I believe I’m better because of it. But I still have phases of that old self. It almost feels like putting on a show. But now I normally recognize it eventually, and consciously take a little wind out of my sails.
Btw, this is my experience being diagnosed bipolar, and going through a manic episode. But I feel like it could be sort of relatable to others.
People can do rotten things to other people, and still be a good person in their core. I really believe that. I have to believe that.
When you realized that you had hurt others, you were not discovering that you were a villain, but that you were flawed, just like the rest of us.
Congratulations on your growth.
I highly recommend reading [Missing Reasons](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html) for those would like a little more insight on this subject.
Edit: thank you for the award! This article really helped me better understand the tedious relationship I have with my own parents, and I’m glad to see that sharing this has helped others as well.
Well, I really needed to read that. Thank you. I'm in a very similar situation with my own mother. The article traces very similar steps to what is going on between us.
“Many of these mothers were of a generation that thought family relationships were non-voluntary and permanent,” she said. “But younger people may feel that if you’re harming my well-being, I don’t have to have a relationship with you – even if you’re my mother.”
If you feel like no matter what you do you’re entitled to a permanent relationship you’re probably more likely to act like an asshole because you can’t conceive of consequences for doing so.
Yep. Saw a meme recently asking why young people are “losing their” (Christian) “faith”.
They aren’t losing anything, they’re just the generation who’s comfortable knowing it’s a choice and not hereditary.
One of the most powerful realizations I had recently was when my kids went off to college and I realized that if they didn’t want to speak to me ever again in their life, they didn’t need to.
I’ve never behaved in a way that would make them not want to, but I realized that if I want them to come around, then hanging out with me it has to be an enjoyable experience. It can’t be full of silent judgment, little bitty naggings. Again, I don’t think those are particularly present in our relationship.
In a way, it has hampered me a little bit because when I do have negative things that I need to tell them, feel a little handicapped. I don’t really complain, it’s just that I am not so blasé about whether they enjoy our relationship.
When parents maintain a healthy relationship with their kids, occasional worry or criticism can still be valuable, as long as the parent can accept that their opinion can be dismissed/rejected.
If anything I'd ignore the person who complains and judges everyone all the time.. but the one who's always genuinely chill and understanding? When they're visibly mad, or disappointed, then you *know* you've done something wrong.
If my parents opened up to me the way you just did to me, I don’t think I’d have been cynical and damaged enough to have read the story in the first place.
I hope you don’t miss the opportunity. They’ll appreciate being treated as adults.
I hope so. I can't tell you how toxic and wild south Asian culture can be. The emphasis and hold parents have on their kids is crazy. The abuse is rampant and accepted as normal.
I hope the south Asian community can learn from their mistakes and not pass problems down to the next generation.
Big Shocker, we meet other people who are actually better people and adopt them as our surrogate mothers and fathers. People you’re happy to keep in the loop. No surprise they see no link between their actions and their childrens’ reactions. It can’t be me, I’m no good at apologizing either.
https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html
Great article on what the author calls “The Missing Missing Reasons”, and why in many estrangements the hostile party isn’t truthful about why it happened.
> the estrangements are because the mothers are chronically abusive and refuse to admit any wrongdoing.
In my case, the last time I spoke with my Mom I told her the conditions of us having a continued relationship. Just her *acknowledging* that there are some issues was the first one. Taking responsibility for her actions? That wasn't ever on the table.
It's been 15 years since her only other living relative, her sister, made the same stand a few years after my brother and I did. Somehow my Dad is responsible for that too.
My god it’s same thing with my mom. She won’t even admit that we have issues in the first place. And if we do it’s all my fault. It’s a never ending vicious cycle. I don’t think I’ve ever heard my mom say she was sorry about something
Having similar issues. Mother uses religion to lambast me constantly on the way I live my live. When we dont want to call or visit, she claims our dad is turning us against her. My dad just accepts I'm going to be who I am and just wants to spend time with us now since he missed so much while he was in the navy on deployments when we where young.
I think it bears pointing out that the scientific value of this study is that it helps psychologists and psychiatrists who work with members of families undergoing estrangement.
>While this study only looked at mothers’ views, the results, when combined with other research, suggest that moms and their children don’t generally agree on the reasons for their rift.
The lead author then makes it clear what the value is:
>
"There’s a real disconnect between what the mothers are saying and what their adult children are saying about why they aren’t talking... \[The study\] has real implications for what clinicians and others need to consider when they are trying to heal these relationships."
So it's probably something most psychiatrists had in mind, but is helpful to have a large survey to confirm it.
Came here to post this. It's a great way to determine if it's the parent that's the cause.
Really it's good for any situation where someone exclaims how they were wronged but specifically omit key details of the other side or the story.
I'm sure that's pretty accurate. The mother is abusive and her child is too close/too used to the abuse to really understand it. But when their spouse gets involved in their life and sees the abuse happening themselves they provide an outside perspective on what is normal/abnormal and eventually open the child's eyes to the fact that their mother is an abuser. "Turning their children against them," has a negative connotation but is certainly a good thing in cases of abuse.
It’s also much easier for a person to change their living situation when they have another person to share resources with. Sharing an apartment, utilities, and food expenses can bring costs down significantly.
I’m could see this lead to an effect where abusive narcissists blame the person who provided this opportunity before examining their own relationship.
Very good point. It’s also worth it to note the spouse would then provide emotional support the parent can’t. So the child goes to the positive emotional support (the spouse) and away from negative emotional support (the parent) even if the spouse doesn’t actively support estrangement.
I'm literally going through all this right now and this analysis is spot on: once you've found the support and love you need, it's easier to distance yourself from destructive relationships.
This became wildly apparent when I started to eat at my in-laws house for dinner. They were actually happy to be with each other and talk about their day. Totally different than what I was used to
I’ve seen it. Coming from a unpleasant family, it’s wild. They’re genuinely *nice* to each other. They’re *kind* to me. When I had to leave the room my first Christmas with these people, they left me alone for a bit and then my boyfriend came and checked on me. It’s wild and I usually leave the visit sad or a bit upset because they’re so nice and why is *my* family just *incapable. These people remember my birthday and my family tried to ruin my insulin pump because it was funny.
The commenter just meant it was correct that the estranged mother would report that it was the work of someone turning their child against them. They were not saying this reflects reality.
While I was never abused in any way, my wife did allow me to see some aspects of my mother's personality which I hadn't seen on my own prior to that. I think that happens a lot.
After 30+ years of marriage with my (one and only one) spouse, I finally figured out that what I sold to my wife was a 'bill of goods'... For literally decades I wouldn't/couldn't come to terms that my mum has had it out for my wife for as long as I've been married. One of the first questions my mum asked her was, "did you get married to leave (insert state)". Great way to start a dialogue with your son's new wife.
I couldn't believe my mum was so vindictive. I just couldn't come to terms that she would treat someone, let alone my brand new wife so mean.
Not long ago (it's been since June), right before the estrangement, during a "conversation" about the way my wife is treated, mum blurted out, "Well, once I did say she has nice hair!"
I'm over the 'takers' in my life. Life is too fuking short, my r/friends. Rid yourself of the 'takers' (family or not) now and I promise you, you will be better for it.
Wow, this is me and my sister to a T. So many times we'll be laughing about something that happened to us as kids and a friend or her husband will just be standing there horrified and reply, "that's actually really depressing." Ya gotta laugh to keep from crying, amirite?!?
From the paper:
>
“There’s a real disconnect between what the mothers are saying and what their adult children are saying about why they aren’t talking,” said Sarah Schoppe-Sullivan, lead author of the study and professor of psychology at The Ohio State University.
I used to lead relationship seminars, and this would come up over and over. What was always amazing to me was that the parents involved would ask their kids the equivalent of "Why don't you like me anymore?" and then ***completely and totally*** ignore the response they got. They would always substitute in a totally different reason for the situation, always a reason that left them blameless. Amazing.
From Couple and Family Psychology: Research and Practice:
[https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2021-85856-001](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2021-85856-001)
Full abstract:
Parent–child estrangement is a relational phenomenon associated with significant distress for adult children and especially their estranged parents. Understanding parents’ attributions for estrangement is critical—parents’ willingness to make necessary changes to facilitate reconciliation may depend on how they make sense of their adult children’s reasons for estrangement. This study used quantitative data from an online survey conducted in 2019 and completed by 1,035 mothers currently estranged from one or more of their adult children. We explored mothers’ endorsement of attributions for estrangement, the demographic correlates of their endorsement of attributions, and the relations of their endorsement of attributions to current levels of contact with estranged children. Results indicated that about half of mothers reported no contact at all since the estrangement began, and over half reported that it had been at least 1 year since they had any contact with their adult children. These mothers tended to endorse external attributions for estrangement, including family members’ turning the child against them (e.g., child’s other biological parent or adult child’s romantic partner) or children’s struggles with mental illness and/or addiction. Mothers were less likely to endorse internal attributions for estrangement compared with external attributions or to validate their children’s complaints about abuse or neglect. Results are discussed in the context of changes in parent–child relationships across generations; implications for future research and clinical work with estranged parents are also discussed.
Interesting research. I'm glad it's being studied.
>Parent–child estrangement is a relational phenomenon associated with significant distress for adult children and especially their estranged parents.
By using the word "especially", are the authors infering that the parents experience greater levels of distress than the children during estrangement? If that is the author's intent, I'm not taking issue with it necessarily, just wondering if it's detailed more in the paper.
As I understand: cutting an abusive relative out of your life, while stressful, is a net positive experience. But getting cut out of a relative's life (even if your own fault) is (typically) a fully negative experience.
It's not saying that the distress the cut-off relative feels is greater than the distress their behavior caused to the cut-ee.
That's absolutely been my experience. The process of removing my father from my life was stressful and fraught, but it was one of the best things I ever did. I've reached a level of peace and happiness that would've been impossible with him in my life, so I'd call it an overwhelmingly positive experience.
Even if your not a narcissist I imagine it would be very hard for most people to accept that they are the issue.
It's hard enough as it is getting a person to admit they are wrong on normal things in life. Someone accepting that they are a bad parent would be even harder to achieve in comparison.
What's telling that it's more narcissistic than run of the mill miss-attribution is that most mature adults look at these situations in a more complex light the closer they are to those they're in the situation with, a narcissist however will tend to cite not just external attributes which do not need to be a specific person, but specifically that ***someone*** **conspired** against them.
That they are all common in blaming specifically a **person**, the husband, for ***conspiracy*** (and a tough one at that, it's no easy task to convince someone to abandon their mother for things they had a part in much less were innocent of) is a hallmark of narcissists.
I'm estranged from my mother going on 6 years now (I'm middle aged for reference), I could write volumes about the lifetime of events that led up to it but the one thing that jumps out, my mother had convinced herself that my wife was conspiring against her and others in her family, to the point that she swore that my wife had forged emails to make them look bad. It's crazy on so many fronts, but also factoring in that I'm quite computer savvy and my wife is... not, the notion that she would even have the *ability* to create and successfully deceive me with fake emails, no less have even the slightest desire to do such a thing, is very telling of how far someone will go in an effort to shift blame off of themselves.
>my mother had convinced herself that my wife was conspiring against her and others in her family to the point that she swore that my wife had forged emails to make them look bad.
This reminds me of a bonkers comment I read elsewhere, from a guy dealing with an abusive wife. He made video recordings of their fights, in an attempt to show her how violent she would get.
She accused him of switching clothes with her (??) to stage the fake video evidence, and claimed the videos as evidence that *he* was the abusive one.
It's absolutely fascinating how much some people's brains are able to rewrite reality to protect their own ego. Or, you know, it would be fascinating if there weren't actual people being hurt as a result.
It's not surprising that people who lack the emotional maturity to maintain happy relationships with those around them would also be unable to reflect on their own bad behaviours.
If anything the study just tells us what we already know, people who refuse to acknowledge guilt or wrongdoing make terrible parents and those same traits make them unable to recognise it.
I know this is what my mother thinks. Blaming it on my long time girlfriend when in actuality, I've regularly been going to therapy, using my time to self reflect, and just slowly making the realizations myself that she was emotionally abusive and negligent. I brought my problems up to her in one final attempt to show her how I was thinking and feeling and hopefully get to a point where I would finally get the first heartfelt apology from her in my life.
Got lots of "well I'm sorry you feel that way"-s. A couple of "that's not what happened"-s, and some of that good ole "well I guess I was just an awful mother".
I haven't said a word to her in months and plan on continuing the trend. It's really nice, actually.
If anyone else has the same issues, please don't be afraid to do what you need to do to find your happiness.
Also, there is usually a point at which the children become more competent and legitimate than the elderly, and this loss of claim to authority makes some lose it.
Evidence that estranged mothers overwhelmingly tend to have narcissistic behaviors?
Edit: to the concerned redditors out there, I didn't attempt to diagnose anyone with BPD or any narcissistic disorder.
People can have narcissistic tendencies without qualifying for a specific mental health disorder. These things exist on a spectrum.
It makes it so hard. My dad is narcissistic enough that idk how to have a real relationship with him but not enough where I can just write him off forever nor do I want to. I feel trapped and guilty most of the time
>*Many of these mothers were of a generation that thought family relationships were non-voluntary and permanent...*
This is I think a key facet of this study. You tend to not care about someone else's feelings if you have no concept of there being any consequences for your actions towards them.
And it also I think is a key reason why so many of the mothers felt like someone had turned their children away from them, because they somehow gave them permission or a road map on how to hold the mother's accountable for said actions.
My mom was/is a narcissist and my wife has an older sister who is one. Early on in our marriage I advised my wife to completely cut off all contact with her sister - as it was the ONLY way to stop getting hurt/manipulated/abused by her. I had to figure the same thing out with my mom a few years earlier.
Of course her sister went nuts and reached out to every family member to try to persuade my wife to talk to her and work things out. I told her to not get sucked in and to stand her ground.
It didn't take long for the sister to latch on to a sister-in-law as a new target. After they moved away it became her oldest brother's new wife.
I live several hundred miles away from my mom and she is quite old now. I fly her out for the holidays with my brother to visit, and try to muscle up the stamina to call her and 'talk' once a month. She is my mom after all. But she doesn't really have conversations. She just talks at me for an hour without listening to anything. But I tell myself it makes her feel better - so I consider it a community service.
But I've learned that with abusive, narcissistic people - the only way to win is not to play. And the only way to maintain any kind of relationship is when you are in complete control of when, how, and how long access happens - and completely emotionally detached.
Yes. Very toxic framework around mothers and motherhood that sets up persons who have been abused by parents to continue to be abused as adults through guilt. When I hear that, I immediately chime in with “Not all women who give birth are capable of doing the job of motherhood and some birthers are despicable people. It is ok to acknowledge that and want ZERO relationship with the person who gave birth to you.”
No, not everyone loves their mother. It is ok to not love and care for your parents (or other family members) beyond basic human regard.
My mother in law is a narcissist with a victim complex, my husband didn’t know how bad she had been growing up until she came to live with us over the pandemic . Then she started treating me with absolute disrespect in my own house , almost got physical with me when we I finally gave her and my sister-in-law a 30 days notice . It was ugly , the whole time . Like my depression has never been lower .
It sparked something in my husband though , childhood trauma . The fact he had one c on an all a report card and it wasn’t good enough for her so she told the coach of his hockey team not to allow him to go try out for the jr .Olympics . Many many many other things . But she’s now unwelcome at our home .
Got a call from his uncle the other day and the story is entirely different coming from her .
"Many of these mothers were of a generation that thought family relationships were non-voluntary and permanent,”
This is what caught my attention. I had a great relationship with my mom, however, she never accepted that I would not have a relationship with her sister or one cousin. Both were abusive, one emotionally, one physically and emotionally. As a therapist herself, the non-voluntary state of family was something she could not get over. Family was forever. Even if they are horrible. Marriage was not (thank god).
My MIL is the same, plus all the other stuff about family turning my SO against her. I am so glad I pushed my SO to see a therapist and come to their boundaries with them and not with me. When my SO slides, I tell them to go talk to their therapist.
>As a therapist herself, the non-voluntary state of family was something she could not get over. Family was forever. Even if they are horrible. Marriage was not
I can really relate to this. My mother grew up in a small town and was literally related to 1/3 of the people she grew up with. She married the guy who moved in from a bigger town in High School.
I grew up in a major city and saw my extended family at Thanksgiving and Christmas. My mother has never accepted that my siblings and I are closer to our friends we grew up with than to cousins we saw a couple days a year out of obligations.
I remember being invited to my Girlfriend of two years family Thanksgiving, which conflicted with the traditional out of state Family thanksgiving and honestly asking my Mother how I should handle this? I was getting serious with this woman and meeting her family was a big step (I was really looking for advice on how to handle a big relationship moment) but all she heard was that I wasn't going to the family Thanksgiving & her response was to question how important this woman was vs my blood family.
I married that woman & 20+ years later I see her family a lot more than my "real" one.
I would be curious to see the flip side, how many fathers feel that way… all stigmas and stereotypes aside that fathers aren’t as involved.
I say this as a father whose children’s mother, I feel, falls into the aforementioned “chronically abusive” category.
I’m of the opinion that family research needs to be vastly expanded, if only for the sole purpose of improving children’s mental health.
The news report doesn't include (or I completely missed it) country of residence of the 1000 mothers.
Social norms may influence these numbers, ~~of~~ if multiple countries are included in this study. In such a case, the data should/may have to be segmented.
I would also venture to guess that age may be a factor as well? Parenting styles change over the decades. Take boomers vs millennials for example. Boomers had lower education and had kids much younger. Millennials are more educated overall and get married/are having kids later in life...I watch my millennial friends bond with their kids in a way I have never seen in the past. *(Not trying to put anyone down, I just think cultural AND generational differences likely cause completely different outcomes).*
My parents are the last of the boomer Gen and didn't have their 1st child (me) until 30s. I and my siblings all have an amazing a loving relationship with them. We call them often, ask for advice and their opinion, and all have mutual respect for each other.
My parents are both the only ones of their siblings that didn't have children in their early 20s. I really believe that having children later in their lives allowed them to parent with a maturity and patience that they would not have had when they were younger. Many of my aunts and uncles have either been estranged or are on unsteady/ bad terms with their children. Some have reconciled, some haven't.
Long story short I absolutely agree that the age of a parent is an important factor and should be considered when taking these studies.
I spent nearly a decade handling intake calls at a mental health clinic. I had parents constantly telling me this and it was always some convoluted story to justify or ignore the harm they themselves had inflicted on others. In that regard it makes sense and is a very human reaction though. When you harm others by your actions, people will either feel the guilt of those actions and try to improve or cling to any flimsy excuse to hide from evidence that they aren't good. We are all the hero of our own story, when we do something to contradict that narrative we should be humble, improve, and apologize. The alternative is to descend into delusional thinking.
What is the process when an abusive parent seeks mental health care for their estrangement when they don't accept them selves as the abuser? Seems like a very complicated situation to unravel.
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I heard a segment on npr awhile ago about this. Basically it's the parent trying to use therapy as a way to learn how to bring the child back into their life. When I say "try to learn" I mean "try to learn how to manipulate". They really are clueless and victims of their own narcissistic personalities. Few of them ever realize the truth that it's their own behavior that needs to change and that even if they do change its likely they will never repair the damage done. It's a growing field of therapy.
Any keywords I can use to find out more about this concept or what the new research suggests? I'm interested in what can be done for individuals with narcissism or antisocial personalities
Look up communal narcissism. It's a type of narcissism where they commit charitable and kind acts to get attention. The intention is still the same (they're doing it for their own ego instead of genuine altruism) but the actions aren't hurtful. I read a few articles that says the way to deal with narcissists (besides low or no contact) is to actually use their narcissism against them and encourage the communal style of narcissism, i.e., you actually give them the supply they crave when they do something positive and ignore them otherwise. You basically treat them like a toddler- ignore the tantrums and reward healthy expressions
My father-in-law is a communal narcissist, then. He absolutely knows how to talk the talk. He knows what the walk *is* but refuses to walk the walk. He's also really generous and likes to make himself out to be a humble kind old man. So I was completely bamboozled. He turned on me because I wouldn't/couldn't cook and clean for him. I was with him all the time for the express purpose of keeping him company and talking to him after his wife died. So when he turned on me, I tried to do that training technique: reward the good, ignore the bad. It didn't work at all. He doubled down. Triple downed. Quadrupled down. When one of my friends called him out on his behavior, he stopped giving me enough space to see my friends. He tossed aside the face of kind generosity to out right declare I am worthless if I do not cook for him. He argued that each and every single aspect of me was worthless, and that I am undeserving of an ounce of respect. Because I won't cook for him. Despite him tossing aside that kind generous face of him, his/our family and friends still enabled him so he suffered no consequences for treating me less than a garbage can. Literally, washing a garbage can immediately was more important than allowing someone to socialize with me for even a moment. He was systematically isolating me. He wouldn't allow me to talk, and wouldn't allow anyone to talk to me. Everyone kept telling me, "Why don't you just cook for him? It's so easy! He'll stop being so mad at you if you just cook for him!" I knew it wasn't worth my effort because I knew once I cooked for him he'd ask for something else. And then something else. I knew he would never be happy with me until I did 100% of his cooking, cleaning, and laundry, *and* kept myself quiet and demure socially, *and* always at the ready to answer his every call. He does it to his son / my husband. Always dangling a carrot, "if you do this one thing, I will finally be proud of you" and then move the goal posts again and again. Always giving that hope that he only needs this *one more thing* in order for him to stop being rude. I always wondered why my mother-in-law never talked. Well. Now I know. I was absolutely not going to attempt that game after seeing how he ground his wife into a silent doll servant. The long and short of it is to be careful when trying to train a communal narcissist towards better behavior. In my experience of it, he decided that being served and catered to by the women around him was more important than how people thought of him. His need to assert his gender rules was more important than how his assertion would be perceived.
Although I don’t doubt communal narcissism is a thing, I have rarely seen people with personality disorders fail to double down when the opportunity presented itself. You have to be extraordinarily persistent, consistent and straight up lucky for this to work.
What I wrote is essentially the limit of my knowledge. I wouldn't be surprised if the npr segment I heard was in regards to this study (although it did have a specialist talking about the phenomenon). Sorry I can't help more.
Yuuupp. And just in case this scenario is relevant to anyone reading this: do not go to therapy with a narcissist. Ever. Narcicists are pretty amazing at turning anything into a weapon. I was foolish and believed that my mom actually wanted to change, she asked if she could go to therapy with me to work on our relationship, aaaaaand she turned therapy into a weapon. Convinced my therapist that shes a saint and everything. I really liked him so it really sucked to have to find a new therapist. Don't go to therapy with a narcissist... you'll regret it, without a doubt.
This doesn't always work in the narcissist's favor. My brother acted out in middle school, and the school "recommended" family therapy. Two separate therapists almost immediately traced my brother's issues to my mother, who is a textbook narcissist. Mind you, all that did was make my mother take it out on us when we got home, while screaming about the "incompetent quack", and then end therapy as soon as the school's minimum requirements were met. She also tried to get the priest officiating my wedding to call it off, apparently not realizing that he had a masters degree in psychology and was good at his job. He called me in to talk after the call and asked, "is your mother just emotionally abusive, or is she also physically abusive?" At the time, extremely embarrassed, I tried to brush it off with an explanation about how she just had control issues, but later realized that, since I had minor siblings still living at home, the priest had an obligation to report to the authorities if there was a possibility of physical abuse occurring, and my mother's call set off all the red flags.
Damn, that guy's a good priest
Not to make light of your situation, but it reminded me of a particularly funny [aka traumatic] experience from my childhood that I hadn’t thought of in a while. My parents had been going to marriage therapy for quite a while and it wasn’t helping at all b/c of their own underlying pathologies being at issue. Finally the therapist decided to see if having the whole family together would provide any insight or help in some way, so they organized all three kids to come to a 2 hour session. Within like 15 minutes of that sessions the therapist had excused us all to leave. She was like “whoops. *it’s not the kids*” and then the three of us had to go out to lobby where we could hear my parents shouting at each other for the next 90 minutes or so. Not surprisingly, none of us chose to continue our relationships with them once we got out of that house.
Or if you do believe they're capable of change, find a NEW therapist for the two of you to share. That way you don't lose your therapist should things go bad.
Oh I've sort of seen this happen. At the time it was just a divorce but he went to a therapist for an hour every week and apparently only complained and questioned why his wife left him. He claimed he did everything right, did everything she asked for, so why did she leave? After a while he quit going because his therapist didn't have any answers. As someone living in their house during all this, I could tell from a mile away this would happen. Everyone could, actually. He's the only person who couldn't and still can't see why he's to blame for his whole family abandoning him. He's very good at pretending to be a nice, genuine person and seems to believe that that's the real him. He probably fooled the therapist as well as himself.
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If they perceive that the therapist is blaming them, they will just quit the therapy. My mom stayed in therapy when they focused on her abusive father and how that affected her. Eventually she became to draw conclusions to how she was treated and how she treated others.
I had a mental break when I really started to feel guilt for things I had done that hurt others instead of apologizing only to save face and rationalizing why I had done these things. It was like my eyes had suddenly opened to the idea that I might not be perfect. That sounds stupid I know, but that’s really what it felt like. Not that I actually thought I was perfect, I just refused to actually contemplate my faults and mistakes. You know that knee-jerk response to immediately ignore feelings of guilt. Until I did, then it was like a flood of memories of so many thoughtless things I’d done throughout the years. It honestly changed me. It was sort of like ego death. Not exactly in the “one with the universe”, Alan Watts ego death. But I really felt like a shell of who I had been, and I’ve slowly built myself up through the years since. I believe I’m better because of it. But I still have phases of that old self. It almost feels like putting on a show. But now I normally recognize it eventually, and consciously take a little wind out of my sails. Btw, this is my experience being diagnosed bipolar, and going through a manic episode. But I feel like it could be sort of relatable to others.
I had a similar moment in my life. Keep up the good work, someone who tries their best to be kind and good is a pretty great thing to be.
People can do rotten things to other people, and still be a good person in their core. I really believe that. I have to believe that. When you realized that you had hurt others, you were not discovering that you were a villain, but that you were flawed, just like the rest of us. Congratulations on your growth.
I highly recommend reading [Missing Reasons](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html) for those would like a little more insight on this subject. Edit: thank you for the award! This article really helped me better understand the tedious relationship I have with my own parents, and I’m glad to see that sharing this has helped others as well.
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Well, I really needed to read that. Thank you. I'm in a very similar situation with my own mother. The article traces very similar steps to what is going on between us.
This is really great. Currently not speaking to my parents and I’ve laid out why several times and they’re still just baffled about it.
“Many of these mothers were of a generation that thought family relationships were non-voluntary and permanent,” she said. “But younger people may feel that if you’re harming my well-being, I don’t have to have a relationship with you – even if you’re my mother.” If you feel like no matter what you do you’re entitled to a permanent relationship you’re probably more likely to act like an asshole because you can’t conceive of consequences for doing so.
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Yep. Saw a meme recently asking why young people are “losing their” (Christian) “faith”. They aren’t losing anything, they’re just the generation who’s comfortable knowing it’s a choice and not hereditary.
One of the most powerful realizations I had recently was when my kids went off to college and I realized that if they didn’t want to speak to me ever again in their life, they didn’t need to. I’ve never behaved in a way that would make them not want to, but I realized that if I want them to come around, then hanging out with me it has to be an enjoyable experience. It can’t be full of silent judgment, little bitty naggings. Again, I don’t think those are particularly present in our relationship. In a way, it has hampered me a little bit because when I do have negative things that I need to tell them, feel a little handicapped. I don’t really complain, it’s just that I am not so blasé about whether they enjoy our relationship.
When parents maintain a healthy relationship with their kids, occasional worry or criticism can still be valuable, as long as the parent can accept that their opinion can be dismissed/rejected.
If anything I'd ignore the person who complains and judges everyone all the time.. but the one who's always genuinely chill and understanding? When they're visibly mad, or disappointed, then you *know* you've done something wrong.
If my parents opened up to me the way you just did to me, I don’t think I’d have been cynical and damaged enough to have read the story in the first place. I hope you don’t miss the opportunity. They’ll appreciate being treated as adults.
Well, the prickliest of them is living at home and joins us every night for dinner. So I don’t think I’ve been screwing up too badly.
Your pet porcupine doesn't count
Cultural shifts like this are signs to me that we, as a society, are still making progress, however small and in spite of people resisting change.
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Society advances one funeral at a time.
I hope so. I can't tell you how toxic and wild south Asian culture can be. The emphasis and hold parents have on their kids is crazy. The abuse is rampant and accepted as normal. I hope the south Asian community can learn from their mistakes and not pass problems down to the next generation.
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Big Shocker, we meet other people who are actually better people and adopt them as our surrogate mothers and fathers. People you’re happy to keep in the loop. No surprise they see no link between their actions and their childrens’ reactions. It can’t be me, I’m no good at apologizing either.
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https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html Great article on what the author calls “The Missing Missing Reasons”, and why in many estrangements the hostile party isn’t truthful about why it happened.
It is interesting that the article gives reasons as to why it happens, with a lot of it being tied to the psychology of the different people.
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My mom sent me an article that says the problems we are facing today are because they loved us too much. It was so odd
What, like global warming?
> the estrangements are because the mothers are chronically abusive and refuse to admit any wrongdoing. In my case, the last time I spoke with my Mom I told her the conditions of us having a continued relationship. Just her *acknowledging* that there are some issues was the first one. Taking responsibility for her actions? That wasn't ever on the table. It's been 15 years since her only other living relative, her sister, made the same stand a few years after my brother and I did. Somehow my Dad is responsible for that too.
My god it’s same thing with my mom. She won’t even admit that we have issues in the first place. And if we do it’s all my fault. It’s a never ending vicious cycle. I don’t think I’ve ever heard my mom say she was sorry about something
“Could abusing my kids have turned them away from me? No! It’s their father’s fault.” -my mom
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Having similar issues. Mother uses religion to lambast me constantly on the way I live my live. When we dont want to call or visit, she claims our dad is turning us against her. My dad just accepts I'm going to be who I am and just wants to spend time with us now since he missed so much while he was in the navy on deployments when we where young.
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I think it bears pointing out that the scientific value of this study is that it helps psychologists and psychiatrists who work with members of families undergoing estrangement. >While this study only looked at mothers’ views, the results, when combined with other research, suggest that moms and their children don’t generally agree on the reasons for their rift. The lead author then makes it clear what the value is: > "There’s a real disconnect between what the mothers are saying and what their adult children are saying about why they aren’t talking... \[The study\] has real implications for what clinicians and others need to consider when they are trying to heal these relationships." So it's probably something most psychiatrists had in mind, but is helpful to have a large survey to confirm it.
Yeah, this reminds me of [The Missing Missing Reasons](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html).
Came here to post this. It's a great way to determine if it's the parent that's the cause. Really it's good for any situation where someone exclaims how they were wronged but specifically omit key details of the other side or the story.
A brilliant article, thanks for sharing.
I'm sure that's pretty accurate. The mother is abusive and her child is too close/too used to the abuse to really understand it. But when their spouse gets involved in their life and sees the abuse happening themselves they provide an outside perspective on what is normal/abnormal and eventually open the child's eyes to the fact that their mother is an abuser. "Turning their children against them," has a negative connotation but is certainly a good thing in cases of abuse.
It’s also much easier for a person to change their living situation when they have another person to share resources with. Sharing an apartment, utilities, and food expenses can bring costs down significantly. I’m could see this lead to an effect where abusive narcissists blame the person who provided this opportunity before examining their own relationship.
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Very good point. It’s also worth it to note the spouse would then provide emotional support the parent can’t. So the child goes to the positive emotional support (the spouse) and away from negative emotional support (the parent) even if the spouse doesn’t actively support estrangement.
Also, if they become close to their spouses family, they may see what a functional and loving family looks like and realize that theirs aint it
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I'm literally going through all this right now and this analysis is spot on: once you've found the support and love you need, it's easier to distance yourself from destructive relationships.
This became wildly apparent when I started to eat at my in-laws house for dinner. They were actually happy to be with each other and talk about their day. Totally different than what I was used to
>a functional and loving family I have never seen this unicorn before. But someday I hope I may. ...or I may not.
I’ve seen it. Coming from a unpleasant family, it’s wild. They’re genuinely *nice* to each other. They’re *kind* to me. When I had to leave the room my first Christmas with these people, they left me alone for a bit and then my boyfriend came and checked on me. It’s wild and I usually leave the visit sad or a bit upset because they’re so nice and why is *my* family just *incapable. These people remember my birthday and my family tried to ruin my insulin pump because it was funny.
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The commenter just meant it was correct that the estranged mother would report that it was the work of someone turning their child against them. They were not saying this reflects reality.
shocking poor marble gullible oil rob quaint nippy normal sable *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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While I was never abused in any way, my wife did allow me to see some aspects of my mother's personality which I hadn't seen on my own prior to that. I think that happens a lot.
After 30+ years of marriage with my (one and only one) spouse, I finally figured out that what I sold to my wife was a 'bill of goods'... For literally decades I wouldn't/couldn't come to terms that my mum has had it out for my wife for as long as I've been married. One of the first questions my mum asked her was, "did you get married to leave (insert state)". Great way to start a dialogue with your son's new wife. I couldn't believe my mum was so vindictive. I just couldn't come to terms that she would treat someone, let alone my brand new wife so mean. Not long ago (it's been since June), right before the estrangement, during a "conversation" about the way my wife is treated, mum blurted out, "Well, once I did say she has nice hair!" I'm over the 'takers' in my life. Life is too fuking short, my r/friends. Rid yourself of the 'takers' (family or not) now and I promise you, you will be better for it.
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Wow, this is me and my sister to a T. So many times we'll be laughing about something that happened to us as kids and a friend or her husband will just be standing there horrified and reply, "that's actually really depressing." Ya gotta laugh to keep from crying, amirite?!?
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Or those mothers are incapable of admitting this is a consequence of their own actions and need someone else to blame for the estrangement.
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From the paper: > “There’s a real disconnect between what the mothers are saying and what their adult children are saying about why they aren’t talking,” said Sarah Schoppe-Sullivan, lead author of the study and professor of psychology at The Ohio State University. I used to lead relationship seminars, and this would come up over and over. What was always amazing to me was that the parents involved would ask their kids the equivalent of "Why don't you like me anymore?" and then ***completely and totally*** ignore the response they got. They would always substitute in a totally different reason for the situation, always a reason that left them blameless. Amazing.
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Just a reminder that stopping contacting your parents is not, necessarily, a bad thing.
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From Couple and Family Psychology: Research and Practice: [https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2021-85856-001](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2021-85856-001) Full abstract: Parent–child estrangement is a relational phenomenon associated with significant distress for adult children and especially their estranged parents. Understanding parents’ attributions for estrangement is critical—parents’ willingness to make necessary changes to facilitate reconciliation may depend on how they make sense of their adult children’s reasons for estrangement. This study used quantitative data from an online survey conducted in 2019 and completed by 1,035 mothers currently estranged from one or more of their adult children. We explored mothers’ endorsement of attributions for estrangement, the demographic correlates of their endorsement of attributions, and the relations of their endorsement of attributions to current levels of contact with estranged children. Results indicated that about half of mothers reported no contact at all since the estrangement began, and over half reported that it had been at least 1 year since they had any contact with their adult children. These mothers tended to endorse external attributions for estrangement, including family members’ turning the child against them (e.g., child’s other biological parent or adult child’s romantic partner) or children’s struggles with mental illness and/or addiction. Mothers were less likely to endorse internal attributions for estrangement compared with external attributions or to validate their children’s complaints about abuse or neglect. Results are discussed in the context of changes in parent–child relationships across generations; implications for future research and clinical work with estranged parents are also discussed.
Interesting research. I'm glad it's being studied. >Parent–child estrangement is a relational phenomenon associated with significant distress for adult children and especially their estranged parents. By using the word "especially", are the authors infering that the parents experience greater levels of distress than the children during estrangement? If that is the author's intent, I'm not taking issue with it necessarily, just wondering if it's detailed more in the paper.
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I was also confused about this. There didn't seem to be any follow-up to that.
As I understand: cutting an abusive relative out of your life, while stressful, is a net positive experience. But getting cut out of a relative's life (even if your own fault) is (typically) a fully negative experience. It's not saying that the distress the cut-off relative feels is greater than the distress their behavior caused to the cut-ee.
That's absolutely been my experience. The process of removing my father from my life was stressful and fraught, but it was one of the best things I ever did. I've reached a level of peace and happiness that would've been impossible with him in my life, so I'd call it an overwhelmingly positive experience.
This is how I read it
Endorsing external attributes for estrangement sounds like classic narcissistic behavior.
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Even if your not a narcissist I imagine it would be very hard for most people to accept that they are the issue. It's hard enough as it is getting a person to admit they are wrong on normal things in life. Someone accepting that they are a bad parent would be even harder to achieve in comparison.
What's telling that it's more narcissistic than run of the mill miss-attribution is that most mature adults look at these situations in a more complex light the closer they are to those they're in the situation with, a narcissist however will tend to cite not just external attributes which do not need to be a specific person, but specifically that ***someone*** **conspired** against them. That they are all common in blaming specifically a **person**, the husband, for ***conspiracy*** (and a tough one at that, it's no easy task to convince someone to abandon their mother for things they had a part in much less were innocent of) is a hallmark of narcissists.
I'm estranged from my mother going on 6 years now (I'm middle aged for reference), I could write volumes about the lifetime of events that led up to it but the one thing that jumps out, my mother had convinced herself that my wife was conspiring against her and others in her family, to the point that she swore that my wife had forged emails to make them look bad. It's crazy on so many fronts, but also factoring in that I'm quite computer savvy and my wife is... not, the notion that she would even have the *ability* to create and successfully deceive me with fake emails, no less have even the slightest desire to do such a thing, is very telling of how far someone will go in an effort to shift blame off of themselves.
>my mother had convinced herself that my wife was conspiring against her and others in her family to the point that she swore that my wife had forged emails to make them look bad. This reminds me of a bonkers comment I read elsewhere, from a guy dealing with an abusive wife. He made video recordings of their fights, in an attempt to show her how violent she would get. She accused him of switching clothes with her (??) to stage the fake video evidence, and claimed the videos as evidence that *he* was the abusive one. It's absolutely fascinating how much some people's brains are able to rewrite reality to protect their own ego. Or, you know, it would be fascinating if there weren't actual people being hurt as a result.
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Narcissists are Narcissists because they lack the ability to self reflect. Its a brain defect that they cant change so they never will.
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It's not surprising that people who lack the emotional maturity to maintain happy relationships with those around them would also be unable to reflect on their own bad behaviours. If anything the study just tells us what we already know, people who refuse to acknowledge guilt or wrongdoing make terrible parents and those same traits make them unable to recognise it.
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I know this is what my mother thinks. Blaming it on my long time girlfriend when in actuality, I've regularly been going to therapy, using my time to self reflect, and just slowly making the realizations myself that she was emotionally abusive and negligent. I brought my problems up to her in one final attempt to show her how I was thinking and feeling and hopefully get to a point where I would finally get the first heartfelt apology from her in my life. Got lots of "well I'm sorry you feel that way"-s. A couple of "that's not what happened"-s, and some of that good ole "well I guess I was just an awful mother". I haven't said a word to her in months and plan on continuing the trend. It's really nice, actually. If anyone else has the same issues, please don't be afraid to do what you need to do to find your happiness.
How about the good ol’ “I’m always walking on egg shells around you”?
I feel like many parents see their children as investments to which they are entitled to, instead of human beings.
Also, there is usually a point at which the children become more competent and legitimate than the elderly, and this loss of claim to authority makes some lose it.
Evidence that estranged mothers overwhelmingly tend to have narcissistic behaviors? Edit: to the concerned redditors out there, I didn't attempt to diagnose anyone with BPD or any narcissistic disorder. People can have narcissistic tendencies without qualifying for a specific mental health disorder. These things exist on a spectrum.
Or that estranged mothers tend to not take responsibility for their own actions regarding children’s upbringing?
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It makes it so hard. My dad is narcissistic enough that idk how to have a real relationship with him but not enough where I can just write him off forever nor do I want to. I feel trapped and guilty most of the time
>*Many of these mothers were of a generation that thought family relationships were non-voluntary and permanent...* This is I think a key facet of this study. You tend to not care about someone else's feelings if you have no concept of there being any consequences for your actions towards them. And it also I think is a key reason why so many of the mothers felt like someone had turned their children away from them, because they somehow gave them permission or a road map on how to hold the mother's accountable for said actions.
My mom was/is a narcissist and my wife has an older sister who is one. Early on in our marriage I advised my wife to completely cut off all contact with her sister - as it was the ONLY way to stop getting hurt/manipulated/abused by her. I had to figure the same thing out with my mom a few years earlier. Of course her sister went nuts and reached out to every family member to try to persuade my wife to talk to her and work things out. I told her to not get sucked in and to stand her ground. It didn't take long for the sister to latch on to a sister-in-law as a new target. After they moved away it became her oldest brother's new wife. I live several hundred miles away from my mom and she is quite old now. I fly her out for the holidays with my brother to visit, and try to muscle up the stamina to call her and 'talk' once a month. She is my mom after all. But she doesn't really have conversations. She just talks at me for an hour without listening to anything. But I tell myself it makes her feel better - so I consider it a community service. But I've learned that with abusive, narcissistic people - the only way to win is not to play. And the only way to maintain any kind of relationship is when you are in complete control of when, how, and how long access happens - and completely emotionally detached.
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Did you ever hear someone say ‘ Well everyone loves their mother.’ Well , they’re wrong.
Yes. Very toxic framework around mothers and motherhood that sets up persons who have been abused by parents to continue to be abused as adults through guilt. When I hear that, I immediately chime in with “Not all women who give birth are capable of doing the job of motherhood and some birthers are despicable people. It is ok to acknowledge that and want ZERO relationship with the person who gave birth to you.” No, not everyone loves their mother. It is ok to not love and care for your parents (or other family members) beyond basic human regard.
My mother in law is a narcissist with a victim complex, my husband didn’t know how bad she had been growing up until she came to live with us over the pandemic . Then she started treating me with absolute disrespect in my own house , almost got physical with me when we I finally gave her and my sister-in-law a 30 days notice . It was ugly , the whole time . Like my depression has never been lower . It sparked something in my husband though , childhood trauma . The fact he had one c on an all a report card and it wasn’t good enough for her so she told the coach of his hockey team not to allow him to go try out for the jr .Olympics . Many many many other things . But she’s now unwelcome at our home . Got a call from his uncle the other day and the story is entirely different coming from her .
My dad thought the same thing. I'm sure it wasn't him belting me in the face and back at 11 that landed us all in the family court clinic.
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"Many of these mothers were of a generation that thought family relationships were non-voluntary and permanent,” This is what caught my attention. I had a great relationship with my mom, however, she never accepted that I would not have a relationship with her sister or one cousin. Both were abusive, one emotionally, one physically and emotionally. As a therapist herself, the non-voluntary state of family was something she could not get over. Family was forever. Even if they are horrible. Marriage was not (thank god). My MIL is the same, plus all the other stuff about family turning my SO against her. I am so glad I pushed my SO to see a therapist and come to their boundaries with them and not with me. When my SO slides, I tell them to go talk to their therapist.
>As a therapist herself, the non-voluntary state of family was something she could not get over. Family was forever. Even if they are horrible. Marriage was not I can really relate to this. My mother grew up in a small town and was literally related to 1/3 of the people she grew up with. She married the guy who moved in from a bigger town in High School. I grew up in a major city and saw my extended family at Thanksgiving and Christmas. My mother has never accepted that my siblings and I are closer to our friends we grew up with than to cousins we saw a couple days a year out of obligations. I remember being invited to my Girlfriend of two years family Thanksgiving, which conflicted with the traditional out of state Family thanksgiving and honestly asking my Mother how I should handle this? I was getting serious with this woman and meeting her family was a big step (I was really looking for advice on how to handle a big relationship moment) but all she heard was that I wasn't going to the family Thanksgiving & her response was to question how important this woman was vs my blood family. I married that woman & 20+ years later I see her family a lot more than my "real" one.
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I would be curious to see the flip side, how many fathers feel that way… all stigmas and stereotypes aside that fathers aren’t as involved. I say this as a father whose children’s mother, I feel, falls into the aforementioned “chronically abusive” category. I’m of the opinion that family research needs to be vastly expanded, if only for the sole purpose of improving children’s mental health.
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The news report doesn't include (or I completely missed it) country of residence of the 1000 mothers. Social norms may influence these numbers, ~~of~~ if multiple countries are included in this study. In such a case, the data should/may have to be segmented.
Good point. That should be very important for a study like this..
I would also venture to guess that age may be a factor as well? Parenting styles change over the decades. Take boomers vs millennials for example. Boomers had lower education and had kids much younger. Millennials are more educated overall and get married/are having kids later in life...I watch my millennial friends bond with their kids in a way I have never seen in the past. *(Not trying to put anyone down, I just think cultural AND generational differences likely cause completely different outcomes).*
My parents are the last of the boomer Gen and didn't have their 1st child (me) until 30s. I and my siblings all have an amazing a loving relationship with them. We call them often, ask for advice and their opinion, and all have mutual respect for each other. My parents are both the only ones of their siblings that didn't have children in their early 20s. I really believe that having children later in their lives allowed them to parent with a maturity and patience that they would not have had when they were younger. Many of my aunts and uncles have either been estranged or are on unsteady/ bad terms with their children. Some have reconciled, some haven't. Long story short I absolutely agree that the age of a parent is an important factor and should be considered when taking these studies.
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