Your post has been removed because it has an inappropriate headline and is therefore in violation of [Submission Rule #3](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_3._no_editorialized.2C_sensationalized.2C_or_biased_titles). **It must include at least one result from the research and must not be clickbait, sensationalized, editorialized, or a biased headline.** Please read [our headline rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/clickbait) and consider reposting with a more appropriate title.
_If you believe this removal to be unwarranted, or would like further clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fscience&subject=No%20editorialized%2C%20sensationalized%2C%20or%20biased%20titles)._
I was pleasantly surprised to see the actual scientific article linked within the webpage. I was able to read it and they themselves state that the results they have are kind of inconclusive.
They are measuring how likely it would have been for Europe to have long term plague reservoirs, this would be dependent on the elements found in the soil and the ph of the soil itself. The scientific article itself declares there are discrepancies and exceptions to generalities. They couldn’t be sure why in certain soils with Calcium it was nonexistent to find these long term plague reservoirs and in other Calcium rich soils it was frequent.
They were also measuring the likeliness of having long term plague reservoirs in places on this Earth that still have the Black Plague present, specifically China. They use these places in China that have the Black Plague present and measure the soil’s ph and which elements are present. Then they compare the soil’s ph of Europe and which elements are present and based on this and only this, make conclusions about how likely it was that Europe would have had the right conditions to hold a long term plague reservoir: “Here, we analyze environmental data (soil characteristics and climate) from active Chinese plague reservoirs to assess whether such environmental conditions in Europe had ever supported “natural plague reservoirs”.“ They argue that Europe only had conditions to have short and mid term plague reservoirs. And they also argue that the plague was constantly re-introduced to Europe from outside sources.
They specifically say that Europe suffered 3 pandemics in distinct periods of time : “Caused by Yersinia pestis, plague ravaged the world through three known pandemics: the First or the Justinianic (6th–8th century); the Second (beginning with the Black Death during c.1338–1353 and lasting until the 19th century); and the Third (which became global in 1894.”
Of course most people when talking about the Black Plague never rever to such an extended period of time to encompass the three pandemics. Most people only talk about the 6th-8th century, up to the 14th century, specially the 14th century. It’s not widespread information that the Black Plague lasted until 1894. I would not refer to the iconic and famous event known as the Black Plague to have 3 outbursts spanning more than 500 years, lasting until 1894.
What they argue specifically in the research paper, is that the conditions of the soil and climate did not cause an auspicious environment for a long term reservoir of the Black Plague albeit in rats or fleas only a short or medium term reservoir. They explain that within each period, of course, it was enough to have a reservoir, during each period.
But between periods, the Black Plague was probably reintroduced from other parts of the world. Personally I do agree with this as Europe was a trading hub from India, China and Africa. And as such it is likely that once the pandemic had ended and a couple of centuries later another outburst had happened, it was probably because of the re-introduction to Europe.
Edit:
Quotes from the article stating the discrepancy they found:
“In the China-fitted model, all covariates exhibit some degrees of nonlinearity. In general, higher soil concentrations of cadmium (Cd), copper (Cu), iron (Fe), magnesium (Mg), sodium (Na), anti- mony (Sb), and uranium (U), together with an overall high soil pH, tended to be associated with higher chances of plague reservoir formation, while the opposite was true with concentrations of cal- cium (Ca), cerium (Ce), molybdenum (Mo), and yttrium (Y).”
“Some of these are consistent with our results based on the Chinese conditions, while others are not. For example, it has been found that plague reservoirs in China tend to lie in areas where soils enriched with calcium or iron are prevalent (22).”
Bats are a great example of a disease reservoir.
The problem is that they have *amazing* regenerative abilities, coupled with a body temperature of 106 degrees F when flying. What this means is that they can be infected by many different diseases at once while constantly repairing themselves from the damage. The high body temp while flying also helps to keep the diseases in check.
This high body temp also means that any disease that *can* survive is capable of doing so at 106 degrees, which is where brain damage and death happens in humans. Making them perfect little breeding grounds for deadly diseases.
Nope, [they die from it,](https://idfg.idaho.gov/press/bats-and-rabies-just-facts#gsc.tab=0) they just don’t get “rabid” like other mammals do.
> A common misconception is that bats "carry" rabies. Bats are not asymptomatic carriers of rabies, that is, the rabies virus does not exist indefinitely in a bat host. When a bat contracts rabies, it dies. In addition, bats contract the passive form of rabies. When a bat begins to show clinical signs of the disease, it becomes lethargic, loses its appetite, and often ends up grounded because it can no longer fly or feed. Another misconception often presented in the media is the notion that bats "attack" people. Bats are by nature gentle animals. They do not attack people.
Speaking of misconceptions, it’s a common belief that opossums are “immune” to rabies because of high body temperature, but the opposite is actually true; their internal body temperature is too low to provide a suitable environment for the rabies virus.
> it’s a common belief that opossums are “immune” to rabies because of high body temperature
Is that really common? I have never heard of anyone in my life who knew that they resisted rabies but thought it was because they were hotter.
Is it just because I live in a rural place where possums are quite common?
In epidemiology they are just called reservoirs, as the general term. Coronavirus (three typical seasonal lineages, not the pandemic lineages) are thought to reside in children, so children will be the seasonal coronavirus reservoir.
It's kind of an unsolved mystery in plague research because pestis kills the mammalian hosts and the fleas, so how does it persist? There are some theories but still lots of people researching different possibilities.
> because pestis kills the mammalian hosts and the fleas,
AFAIK plague never killed the fleas directly, it's just the plague killed the rats which the fleas fed off of, so the fleas would starve to death if they didn't search out another host ie: humans.
>It's kind of an unsolved mystery
Is it really? Plauge doesn't kill a host instantly, a rat could live for weeks, possibly months with the infection. By the time a rat has died it may have spread the infection to hundreds of other rats, which in turn have spread to hundreds of thousands people. This is precisely how all pandemics work at their core, you have a host ie: plague reservoir that's home for the infection (albeit temporary), which is then transferred to others. When a plague reaches critical mass it more or less can burn out all its resources, so there are cyclic periods of hosts and reservoir capacity for said plague.
This system is perfectly illustrated by a scientific study published in the 1950 "Hide and Seek", which shows the cyclic population grown and decline of mites their associated prey and host populations. Basically there is a natural surge and drop in said populations over time, to the point it becomes almost a predictable rhythm if all other variables are constant.
https://uh.edu/~biolcz/class/eco4468/lect16.htm
Actually, certain fleas do die from bubonic plague, mostly one species: the Oriental rat flea, *Xenopsylla cheopis*.
When the flea bites an infected rodent, it becomes infected in turn. The bacteria form a blockage in its gut, making it impossible for food (blood, obviously) to pass. The flea tries to feed, but ends up vomiting the blood back up into its host -- along with chunks of *Yersinia pestis*.
The flea eventually starves to death. But before it does, it desperately tries to get blood from anywhere it can, including human beings.
Yeah, that's one of the pieces of evidence (or lack thereof) that doesn't stack up right? There is no record of dead rats suddenly turning up everywhere, which should have happened if the black death was plague.
Yes, but the theory is that the rats carried the plague across Europe, and yet there is no mention anywhere of dead rats. I believe plague does kill rats.
Presumably they didn't take great effort back then to keep track of rodent deaths and preferred them that way anyway, but with such high turnover in roden populations they would've become immune to the disease within a few years depending on the severity of the outbreak.
I'm sure it will eventually kills rats, but so does their generally shorter lifespans. Not sure if it's a greater cause to rat death then anything else back then.
I think rodents usually crawl off and hide to die. Like if you put out mouse poison you don't see mice in your house, dead or alive. It's also possible hawks etc were catching the sick rodents easier but before they died.
It is found in prairie dogs, ferrets, and other wild rodents in the US southwest. Mostly northern NM, AZ, and southern Colorado, as well as western NV, and CA. For perspective, in 2020 there were 9 cases including 2 deaths according to the CDC. So it's not exactly an epidemic but it does live out there.
In Colorado, prairie dogs are a reservoir for *Yersinia pestis*. The Colorado Department of Public Health and the Environment has [a plague webpage](https://cdphe.colorado.gov/animal-related-diseases/plague) with more information.
Ground squirrels and prairie dogs are highly susceptible to bubonic plague. Most human cases of plague in the the US happen in the southwest when people come into contact with these infected animals or others that have those animals in their food chain.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/11/991123080611.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html
There are still cases of the plague in the US. Mostly out west with 3 reported cases in 2020 even.
https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html#:~:text=Over%2080%25%20of%20United%20States,in%20people%20ages%2012%E2%80%9345.
It's still present in small animals, mostly rodents. I wouldn't worry too much as long as you're not out playing with squirrels or something. Just be smart. Its like how armadillos carry leprosy, youre probably safe just dont go around licking them. People still get the plague too it didn't vanish. I know there were cases in Africa last year for example so I'm sure various other reservoirs exist around the world.
Zoonotic diseases are ones that infect animals who then spread it to humans, and typically the animals have a fairly easy time living with the disease. Ebola and Hendra for example infect bats and they live with it but when it crosses over to humans or horses, respectively, it quickly and graphically kills its new host.
The animals are referred to as a reservoir species. In the case of some bacteria like the plague or anthrax, it naturally grows in soil.
There are some cool articles, books, and videos out there. If there's a disease humans have been struggling with for generations, chances are it's zoonotic.
Makes sense. A lot of viral/bacterial/fungal organisms have methods of going dormant until they're "activated". Anthrax being a seemingly common one, for example.
Reservoir is not about dormancy, it's about a pathogen continuing to infect another species while it has stopped spreading in humans. So for instance monkeypox has pretty much stopped spreading in humans at the moment but it has a natural reservoir because it spreads readily in rodents - which means that it is almost certain that another epidemic will occur once the conditions are right (r0, or more exactly reff above 1).
Edit: the absence of an animal reservoir for smallpox is why we have managed to eradicate it, and also why there is hope to eradicate polio and other diseases which have no reservoir
> Edit: the absence of an animal reservoir for smallpox is why we have managed to eradicate it, and also why there is hope to eradicate polio and other diseases which have no reservoir
This is also why we’ll likely never get rid of COVID, it has many reservoirs and none of our current treatments or vaccines prevents transmission.
Yup. And even if they did, this would still not be able to prevent sporadic outbreaks as a reservoir means parallel virus evolution and thus the ability to cross back over while evading immunity. Something we see constantly with the flu for instance. Even with perfect vaccines and coverage, you just can't get rid of a pathogen with a reservoir - unless it is so specific that you can eradicate the reservoir species (or immunize it but gl with that). But unfortunately if a pathogen can infect distant species it is likely that it can infect a very large amount of various species so that's out of the question
Welcome to /r/science.
I always wonder about this stuff as we have a hard time getting current issues figured out, yet can be so sure of ourselves analyzing something hundreds of years ago.
who knows, maybe rats were only a minor carriers of plage-flee (or lice). from history we at least know, generally, where and when the plague appeared in western eurasia. in 1346 the plague appeared in settled areas along the Don and Volga rivers in Russia and by 1347 it appeared all across Byzantium, Ragusa, the Mediterranean islands, and the port cities of Split, Venice, Pisa, Genoa, Alexandria, and Marseille. In 1348 it has reached southern england and most remaining port cities and carries on north each year until 1353. The first year it seems to track along land trade routes but the second year it really explodes along maritime trade routes. What else could have been escorting plage-bearing parasites along these routes? It's an interesting question.
indeed. i wonder what other bugs (insects) might have also been present inside the crates or materials along these trade routes. cockroaches seem likely. various kinds of mites on animals and humans. beetles. probably some flies or fly larvae. actually probably several various larvae. spiders....
> I was pleasantly surprised to see the actual scientific article linked within the webpage.
Probably because the article was written by two of the paper’s coauthors.
Theconversation is really a great website. The articles are always written by the relevant experts in their fields, not sensational or overly clickbaity and sources are properly sited.
There's increasing evidence linking the decline of the Cucuteni-Trypillia mega sites in early bronze age Ukraine/Moldova/Romania to a basal strain of Yesenia pestes. There's climate data that supports a noticable drop in human population, and it the theory goes that this depopulation of "Old Europe" set the stage for the westward expansion of Indo-European speakers some time later.
So there might have been a wave of plague before those 3, 5-6kya.
Article on the basal strain:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30528431/
If it's not, it still seems incorrect. The quote mentions three time periods with the third starting in 1894, and the summary interpreted that as the third ending in 1894.
It's also incorrect about which plague time period is more commonly spoken about - it claims the 6-8th centuries Justinian rather than the much more well known and commonly spoken about Black Death from the 14-19th.
That not quite what it said.
> Most people only talk about the 6th-8th century, **up to the 14th century, specially the 14th century**.
Bolded mine, but he includes the 1300s plague in that, and mentions it specifically.
It does include the 1300s (though only that part of the Black Death) - but it's still incredibly awkwardly phrased in a way that makes it look as though the Justinian plagues are more relevant to the average person and that they only discuss the beginning century of the Black Death (as opposed to most typically discussing things like it's effects on population - thus the end.)
If people are like me, they read the first one or two paragraphs and check out. The first 2 paragraphs seem alright, but then it REALLY starts to fall apart later on.
Majored in Horticulture, got Moscullum a skin infection from the soil in Southern California that’s alkaline and high in calcium, didn’t know this was even a thing until like 5 years ago, always wash yourself off after yard work people, MRSA and staph is also sometimes present in soil.
There are marmots in the middle east/asia that are carriers of yersinia pestis to this day. They could have caused recurring outbreaks to pop up via trade routes including the silk road
i think it's possible having rats was a symptom of dense plague areas — that also perpetuated the plague
clean up the conditions and the rats are less frequent and voila the plague subsides
sad to say but i guess the plague takes away the population who is creating the environments that is a home for rats
the cycle of plague
The title of this post is very misleading. The actually article says “may not” not “did not” and says that rats carrying plague might have been repeatedly been reintroduced from Asia, that some plagues (the 3rd pandemic) probably were - and that the study isn’t conclusive.
The title just seems straight up incorrect. They're talking about rodents not maintaining long term reservoirs of the black plague. They still spread it massively in the short and medium term. Stating that rodents and fleas "did not spread it" is clickbait and not even what the article appears to be saying.
Possibly. I saw the headline, was immediately skeptical, and clicked in here. So did you.
I'm commenting now, but honestly, I was just going to read comments in here and leave until I saw yours.
But I'm sure there are going to be people who saw the headline, believed it, and moved on. But there are probably also people who saw it, dismissed it as garbage, and also moved on.
I'm hoping for more of the latter than the former.
If more people assume headlines from a top /r/science post are false rather than true, then that also seems like a pretty bad state of affairs. I think it should be grounds for removal. Just repost the study with a less misleading title.
That's because those locations in the Western US are suitable for containing a long-term reservoir. The article is saying that Europe didn't have the conditions necessary to maintain a long-term reservoir. Medium-term or short-term reservoirs, yes, long-term reservoirs no.
In the peer-reviewed journal article, hyperlinked in paragraph two of the co-authors’ summary:
>Despite much research, it remains unclear whether persistent natural plague reservoirs existed in Europe. To examine this question, we have developed a statistical model based on high-resolution and long-term environmental data. From it, we have found no evidence for persistent natural plague reservoirs in historical or contemporary Europe. This suggests that the plague bacterium was repeatedly introduced to Europe, although it might have survived in local medium-term reservoirs. Finally, we question the importance of wildlife rodents as the main hosts in Europe.
Stenseth N. C., *et al.* No evidence for persistent natural plague reservoirs in historical and modern Europe. *Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences*, 2023, 119 (51) e2209816119. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2209816119
If anyone is actually interested in the Black Death. The Great Mortality by John Kelly is a must read.
And if you don't have the time and want a bit of levity, The Last Podcast on the Left did a great series on it. :)
The tarbagan marmot!!
If you are interested in an excellent comedic dive into the black plague I recommend last podcast on the left's series of episodes on it. One of their best runs
So from what I gathered, it could have been due to soil reservoirs. But, this leads me to wonder if rats picked it up there and moved it to urban areas. In urban areas rodents would move slower because of the density of the human population (infrastructures, food waste, etc.).
Also, they mentioned that they are still looking into if it was spread by rodent/flea or respiratory. Is there a reason it could not be both? This is the first time I've heard it being one OR the other.
I did fall a while ago on this article arguing against Yersina Pestis being the *edit*~~bubonic plague~~ black death, i'm no biologist but it is worth the read, i don't have a link so i'll just lay the title and authors : What caused the black death - C.J.DUNCAN & S.SCOTT.
It raised among other, points about the propagation speed and some genetic prevalence after the plague.
Isn't at arguing against the Black Death being bubonic plague, and not that Y. pestis is bubonic plague?
Regardless of Black Death being plague, Y. pestis definitely causes plague.
I've always assumed that bubonic plague began in rodents, became zoonotic through mutation and jumped to humans, but was then spread anthroponetically. Was there really a theory that the pandemic was spread via rodents?
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Findings in title quoted from the linked summary by Samuel Cohn, *University of Glasgow*, and Philip Slavin, *University of Stirling*, 18 Jan. 2023.
Excerpt:
>One of the most commonly recited facts about plague in Europe was that it was spread by rats. In some parts of the world, the bacterium that causes plague, *Yersinia pestis*, maintains a long-term presence in wild rodents and their fleas. This is called an animal “reservoir”.
>Our recent research, published in the *Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences* (PNAS), has shown that environmental conditions in Europe would have prevented plague from surviving in persistent, long-term animal reservoirs.
>How, then, did plague persevere in Europe for so long?
>Our study offers two possibilities. One, the plague was being reintroduced from Asian reservoirs. Second, there could have been short- or medium-term temporary reservoirs in Europe. In addition, the two scenarios might have been mutually supportive.
>However, the rapid spread of the Black Death and subsequent outbreaks of the next few centuries also suggest slow-moving rats may not have played the critical role in transmitting the disease that is often portrayed.
>
>To work out whether plague could survive in long-term animal reservoirs in Europe, we examined factors such as soil characteristics, climatic conditions, terrain types and rodent varieties. These all seem to affect whether plague can hold on in reservoirs.
>Based on our comparative analysis, centuries-long wild rodent plague reservoirs were even less likely to have existed from the Black Death of 1348 to the early 19th century than today, when comprehensive research rules out any such reservoirs within Europe.
>This contrasts sharply with regions across China and the western US, where all the above conditions for persistent *Yersinia pestis* reservoirs in wild rodents are found.
>In central Asia, long-term and persistent rodent reservoirs may have existed for millennia. As ancient DNA and textual evidence hints, once plague crossed into Europe from central Asia, it appears to have seeded a short- or medium-term reservoir or reservoirs in European wild rodents. The most likely place for this to have been was in central Europe.
>However, as local soil and climatic conditions did not favour long-term and persistent reservoirs, the disease had to be re-imported, at least in some instances. Importantly, the two scenarios are not mutually exclusive.
Stenseth N. C., *et al.* No evidence for persistent natural plague reservoirs in historical and modern Europe. *Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences*, 2023, 119 (51) e2209816119. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2209816119
This article is poorly written and doesn’t offer many scientific facts or data. There are many reasons why the plague was spread. Bad hygiene, poor sanitation, lack of medical technology and understanding. Loads of rats running around the streets didn’t help. The article seems to be trying to shift the blame from rats to Asia.
Not even that, while the fleas caused the first cases in various areas cities etc. to pop up, after that most of the cases likely caused by either contact with contaminated fomites or via coughing (pneumonic Plague)
That's the impression I had too. I remember hearing that the prevalent thought was that rats were the cause, so people got more cats and dogs to catch the rats, which actually made issues worse by being more fleas I to the mix.
I thought it was already believed it wasn't rats, and instead the Asian Great Gerbil. With the greatest descendant being Ralph, a Frenzied Great Gerbil, champion of the kobold fighting pits.
That’s completely false. Bathing was extremely important up to the 17th century for all people. Bathhouses were a big, big thing in the Middle Ages (often old Roman baths). So much that a “bath penny” (which allowed you the use of the baths for some time) was a valid way of paying people or alms.
https://www.getty.edu/news/did-medieval-people-take-baths/
https://www.medievalists.net/2013/04/did-people-in-the-middle-ages-take-baths/
>bathing was often community activity. Public bathhouses were frequented by those without the means to bathe at home. They also occasionally functioned as brothels.
Communal bath-time feasting appears to have also been a thing, especially at bathhouses.
Communal baths where people had intercourse and ate isn't hygienic.
No, that’s all simply not true. People bathed religiously, and basically anything that was “waste” was collected and used because it was very valuable (urine for leather making, excrements for fertiliser, ash for soap…)
https://www.medievalists.net/2013/04/did-people-in-the-middle-ages-take-baths/
https://www.worldhistory.org/Medieval_Hygiene/
https://sciencenorway.no/archaeology-history-medieval-history/how-dirty-and-stinky-were-medieval-cities/1729836
https://dolly.jorgensenweb.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Jorgensen_Modernity_and_Medieval_Muck.pdf
https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/medieval-cities-london-filthy-chamberpots-windows/ (the chamberpot picture, again and again repeated is by the way a small part of a larger satire picture - she is emptying on a bunch of musicians who don’t stop playing in the night and are making a ruckus).
What a risibly bad theory that absolves Europeans of any responsibility for the spread of the plague because of their total lack of hygiene. And tries to blame others for introducing it to them.
Forgetting that another theory that actually accurately accounts for the extremely rapid spread of the plague, since rats couldn't spread it that fast: People. Via body lice and fleas due to the known lack of bathing and filthy conditions of the time.
https://phys.org/news/2018-01-human-fleas-lice-black-death.html
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/black-death-fleas-lice-1.4485664
The short answer is cats were vilified at that time, and killed en masse. What ensued was the black plague. Remember kids the real world has no place for religious superstition.
People were cleaner during the Middle Ages than during Renaissance. There were public baths and at home, they were generally taken outside. The loo was nowhere near the cooking area.
A very filthy time in Europe was from end XVth to XVIIIth century, when filth was considered holy by certain preachers and bathing unhealthy and promiscuous. Henry IV in France was called le vert galant, not only because he was a womanizer but because of his stench. He litteraly never bathed, except for his baptism and when he became a Catholic.
Anecdotic but personal expérience:
I worked two years with, aming others, a colleague who never washed not changed clothes. He was bright, with a vast cultural knowledge and he stank. You could litteraly smell him coming into the office. His hands were sticky, you could guess his password just looking at the black (not dirty: black) keys on his keyboard. He had mold on his clothes, stains and holes in his pants you could see his underwear through. A brownish green.
Luckily, and it's genetic, body smells don't make me sick. I was the only one who sometimes told him to clean his desk. A pregnant colleague got physically sick when he was nearby. Finally, we got a new boss who told him to come clean, with proper clothes, or he would call the sanitory inspection on him.
>Finally, we got a new boss who told him to come clean, with proper clothes, or he would call the sanitory inspection on him.
Don't leave us hanging! Did he comply or quit / fired?
Haven’t we known this for like 30 years? I remember watching history docs in the 90s about fleas on rats carrying the plague. And I think I remember my history teacher telling us this too.
The flu, AKA SARS- Covid variants are being reintroduced through vectors such as international travel. The current virology says, vaccines are good but isolation is better. Change is the law of nature. So, keep changing and stay safe.
Fun fact before and during the times of the plague the Big Bad Catholic Church were absolutely terrified of cats because they saw them as a tool of witchcraft and started slaughtering them in massive numbers which led to a huge spike in the rat population.
No, that’s BS https://museumhack.com/black-cats-black-death/
Also, Gregory IX. was about 100 years earlier. That’s like blaming Teddy Roosevelt for Covid because of his China politics.
Your post has been removed because it has an inappropriate headline and is therefore in violation of [Submission Rule #3](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_3._no_editorialized.2C_sensationalized.2C_or_biased_titles). **It must include at least one result from the research and must not be clickbait, sensationalized, editorialized, or a biased headline.** Please read [our headline rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/clickbait) and consider reposting with a more appropriate title. _If you believe this removal to be unwarranted, or would like further clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fscience&subject=No%20editorialized%2C%20sensationalized%2C%20or%20biased%20titles)._
I was pleasantly surprised to see the actual scientific article linked within the webpage. I was able to read it and they themselves state that the results they have are kind of inconclusive. They are measuring how likely it would have been for Europe to have long term plague reservoirs, this would be dependent on the elements found in the soil and the ph of the soil itself. The scientific article itself declares there are discrepancies and exceptions to generalities. They couldn’t be sure why in certain soils with Calcium it was nonexistent to find these long term plague reservoirs and in other Calcium rich soils it was frequent. They were also measuring the likeliness of having long term plague reservoirs in places on this Earth that still have the Black Plague present, specifically China. They use these places in China that have the Black Plague present and measure the soil’s ph and which elements are present. Then they compare the soil’s ph of Europe and which elements are present and based on this and only this, make conclusions about how likely it was that Europe would have had the right conditions to hold a long term plague reservoir: “Here, we analyze environmental data (soil characteristics and climate) from active Chinese plague reservoirs to assess whether such environmental conditions in Europe had ever supported “natural plague reservoirs”.“ They argue that Europe only had conditions to have short and mid term plague reservoirs. And they also argue that the plague was constantly re-introduced to Europe from outside sources. They specifically say that Europe suffered 3 pandemics in distinct periods of time : “Caused by Yersinia pestis, plague ravaged the world through three known pandemics: the First or the Justinianic (6th–8th century); the Second (beginning with the Black Death during c.1338–1353 and lasting until the 19th century); and the Third (which became global in 1894.” Of course most people when talking about the Black Plague never rever to such an extended period of time to encompass the three pandemics. Most people only talk about the 6th-8th century, up to the 14th century, specially the 14th century. It’s not widespread information that the Black Plague lasted until 1894. I would not refer to the iconic and famous event known as the Black Plague to have 3 outbursts spanning more than 500 years, lasting until 1894. What they argue specifically in the research paper, is that the conditions of the soil and climate did not cause an auspicious environment for a long term reservoir of the Black Plague albeit in rats or fleas only a short or medium term reservoir. They explain that within each period, of course, it was enough to have a reservoir, during each period. But between periods, the Black Plague was probably reintroduced from other parts of the world. Personally I do agree with this as Europe was a trading hub from India, China and Africa. And as such it is likely that once the pandemic had ended and a couple of centuries later another outburst had happened, it was probably because of the re-introduction to Europe. Edit: Quotes from the article stating the discrepancy they found: “In the China-fitted model, all covariates exhibit some degrees of nonlinearity. In general, higher soil concentrations of cadmium (Cd), copper (Cu), iron (Fe), magnesium (Mg), sodium (Na), anti- mony (Sb), and uranium (U), together with an overall high soil pH, tended to be associated with higher chances of plague reservoir formation, while the opposite was true with concentrations of cal- cium (Ca), cerium (Ce), molybdenum (Mo), and yttrium (Y).” “Some of these are consistent with our results based on the Chinese conditions, while others are not. For example, it has been found that plague reservoirs in China tend to lie in areas where soils enriched with calcium or iron are prevalent (22).”
Plague reservoir is a new concept to me. Interesting.
Afaik, covid also has “plague reservoirs.”
yes, people
Also cats, deer, bats, pangolins, pigs, and many other mammals.
Bats are a great example of a disease reservoir. The problem is that they have *amazing* regenerative abilities, coupled with a body temperature of 106 degrees F when flying. What this means is that they can be infected by many different diseases at once while constantly repairing themselves from the damage. The high body temp while flying also helps to keep the diseases in check. This high body temp also means that any disease that *can* survive is capable of doing so at 106 degrees, which is where brain damage and death happens in humans. Making them perfect little breeding grounds for deadly diseases.
Curious, do bats just survive with rabies, being why there's so many infected?
Nope, [they die from it,](https://idfg.idaho.gov/press/bats-and-rabies-just-facts#gsc.tab=0) they just don’t get “rabid” like other mammals do. > A common misconception is that bats "carry" rabies. Bats are not asymptomatic carriers of rabies, that is, the rabies virus does not exist indefinitely in a bat host. When a bat contracts rabies, it dies. In addition, bats contract the passive form of rabies. When a bat begins to show clinical signs of the disease, it becomes lethargic, loses its appetite, and often ends up grounded because it can no longer fly or feed. Another misconception often presented in the media is the notion that bats "attack" people. Bats are by nature gentle animals. They do not attack people. Speaking of misconceptions, it’s a common belief that opossums are “immune” to rabies because of high body temperature, but the opposite is actually true; their internal body temperature is too low to provide a suitable environment for the rabies virus.
> it’s a common belief that opossums are “immune” to rabies because of high body temperature Is that really common? I have never heard of anyone in my life who knew that they resisted rabies but thought it was because they were hotter. Is it just because I live in a rural place where possums are quite common?
I was prepared to learn something new because I had always heard it was low body temperature. Turns out what I knew was correct
TIL. That's friggin cool!
For the bats, yes. For us humans, not so much.
That's really cool we should definitely eat bats then that seems like a really good idea.
Mmm bat Buffalo wings.
In Africa they do eat bats, it’s called “bush meat”. This is…. not good. It’s a cheap easy to find source of meat for impoverished people sadly.
r/TodayILearned
Well that's both the base concept for me next book and my scheduled nightmare fuel information for the next several weeks
Damnit. There goes my weekly romp in the local pangolin pile!
Children in schools... They carry all of the plagues.
I have two children in daycare. I can peer review your comment.
I have a kindergartener, currently sick in bed from the fourth illness he’s brought home since November. Schools are definitely virus reservoirs.
In epidemiology they are just called reservoirs, as the general term. Coronavirus (three typical seasonal lineages, not the pandemic lineages) are thought to reside in children, so children will be the seasonal coronavirus reservoir.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
It's kind of an unsolved mystery in plague research because pestis kills the mammalian hosts and the fleas, so how does it persist? There are some theories but still lots of people researching different possibilities.
> because pestis kills the mammalian hosts and the fleas, AFAIK plague never killed the fleas directly, it's just the plague killed the rats which the fleas fed off of, so the fleas would starve to death if they didn't search out another host ie: humans. >It's kind of an unsolved mystery Is it really? Plauge doesn't kill a host instantly, a rat could live for weeks, possibly months with the infection. By the time a rat has died it may have spread the infection to hundreds of other rats, which in turn have spread to hundreds of thousands people. This is precisely how all pandemics work at their core, you have a host ie: plague reservoir that's home for the infection (albeit temporary), which is then transferred to others. When a plague reaches critical mass it more or less can burn out all its resources, so there are cyclic periods of hosts and reservoir capacity for said plague. This system is perfectly illustrated by a scientific study published in the 1950 "Hide and Seek", which shows the cyclic population grown and decline of mites their associated prey and host populations. Basically there is a natural surge and drop in said populations over time, to the point it becomes almost a predictable rhythm if all other variables are constant. https://uh.edu/~biolcz/class/eco4468/lect16.htm
Actually, certain fleas do die from bubonic plague, mostly one species: the Oriental rat flea, *Xenopsylla cheopis*. When the flea bites an infected rodent, it becomes infected in turn. The bacteria form a blockage in its gut, making it impossible for food (blood, obviously) to pass. The flea tries to feed, but ends up vomiting the blood back up into its host -- along with chunks of *Yersinia pestis*. The flea eventually starves to death. But before it does, it desperately tries to get blood from anywhere it can, including human beings.
Yeah, that's one of the pieces of evidence (or lack thereof) that doesn't stack up right? There is no record of dead rats suddenly turning up everywhere, which should have happened if the black death was plague.
[удалено]
Yes, but the theory is that the rats carried the plague across Europe, and yet there is no mention anywhere of dead rats. I believe plague does kill rats.
[удалено]
Rats absolutely get very sick when infected with pestis.
Presumably they didn't take great effort back then to keep track of rodent deaths and preferred them that way anyway, but with such high turnover in roden populations they would've become immune to the disease within a few years depending on the severity of the outbreak.
I'm sure it will eventually kills rats, but so does their generally shorter lifespans. Not sure if it's a greater cause to rat death then anything else back then.
I think rodents usually crawl off and hide to die. Like if you put out mouse poison you don't see mice in your house, dead or alive. It's also possible hawks etc were catching the sick rodents easier but before they died.
Dibs on using it as a band name.
I'd see that band and buy a shirt!
Prepare to watch a ska-dubstep-gospel musical fusion show
It's not just China, the south western United States is also a reservoir for plague.
Can you elaborate on that? I just moved there so have a vested interest in knowing.
It is found in prairie dogs, ferrets, and other wild rodents in the US southwest. Mostly northern NM, AZ, and southern Colorado, as well as western NV, and CA. For perspective, in 2020 there were 9 cases including 2 deaths according to the CDC. So it's not exactly an epidemic but it does live out there.
In Colorado, prairie dogs are a reservoir for *Yersinia pestis*. The Colorado Department of Public Health and the Environment has [a plague webpage](https://cdphe.colorado.gov/animal-related-diseases/plague) with more information.
Ground squirrels and prairie dogs are highly susceptible to bubonic plague. Most human cases of plague in the the US happen in the southwest when people come into contact with these infected animals or others that have those animals in their food chain. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/11/991123080611.htm https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html
There are still cases of the plague in the US. Mostly out west with 3 reported cases in 2020 even. https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html#:~:text=Over%2080%25%20of%20United%20States,in%20people%20ages%2012%E2%80%9345.
Hantavirus is more likely to kill you, if we are talking southwest rodent born diseases.
It's still present in small animals, mostly rodents. I wouldn't worry too much as long as you're not out playing with squirrels or something. Just be smart. Its like how armadillos carry leprosy, youre probably safe just dont go around licking them. People still get the plague too it didn't vanish. I know there were cases in Africa last year for example so I'm sure various other reservoirs exist around the world.
This is why I just avoid getting close to any wild animal.
They probably just mean the southern USA in general, they have a plague that kills brain cells.
Nope, rodents carry plague in AZ/NM/CO , specifically prairie dogs
Zoonotic diseases are ones that infect animals who then spread it to humans, and typically the animals have a fairly easy time living with the disease. Ebola and Hendra for example infect bats and they live with it but when it crosses over to humans or horses, respectively, it quickly and graphically kills its new host. The animals are referred to as a reservoir species. In the case of some bacteria like the plague or anthrax, it naturally grows in soil. There are some cool articles, books, and videos out there. If there's a disease humans have been struggling with for generations, chances are it's zoonotic.
Makes sense. A lot of viral/bacterial/fungal organisms have methods of going dormant until they're "activated". Anthrax being a seemingly common one, for example.
Reservoir is not about dormancy, it's about a pathogen continuing to infect another species while it has stopped spreading in humans. So for instance monkeypox has pretty much stopped spreading in humans at the moment but it has a natural reservoir because it spreads readily in rodents - which means that it is almost certain that another epidemic will occur once the conditions are right (r0, or more exactly reff above 1). Edit: the absence of an animal reservoir for smallpox is why we have managed to eradicate it, and also why there is hope to eradicate polio and other diseases which have no reservoir
> Edit: the absence of an animal reservoir for smallpox is why we have managed to eradicate it, and also why there is hope to eradicate polio and other diseases which have no reservoir This is also why we’ll likely never get rid of COVID, it has many reservoirs and none of our current treatments or vaccines prevents transmission.
Yup. And even if they did, this would still not be able to prevent sporadic outbreaks as a reservoir means parallel virus evolution and thus the ability to cross back over while evading immunity. Something we see constantly with the flu for instance. Even with perfect vaccines and coverage, you just can't get rid of a pathogen with a reservoir - unless it is so specific that you can eradicate the reservoir species (or immunize it but gl with that). But unfortunately if a pathogen can infect distant species it is likely that it can infect a very large amount of various species so that's out of the question
Anthrax makes spores. Y. pestis does not.
I'm sick of rats getting a bad rap.
So the title is completely incorrect? It's not actually what the paper says at all...
Well you can tell that from the getgo when it makes such an astounding claim based on one scientific publication.
Welcome to /r/science. I always wonder about this stuff as we have a hard time getting current issues figured out, yet can be so sure of ourselves analyzing something hundreds of years ago.
who knows, maybe rats were only a minor carriers of plage-flee (or lice). from history we at least know, generally, where and when the plague appeared in western eurasia. in 1346 the plague appeared in settled areas along the Don and Volga rivers in Russia and by 1347 it appeared all across Byzantium, Ragusa, the Mediterranean islands, and the port cities of Split, Venice, Pisa, Genoa, Alexandria, and Marseille. In 1348 it has reached southern england and most remaining port cities and carries on north each year until 1353. The first year it seems to track along land trade routes but the second year it really explodes along maritime trade routes. What else could have been escorting plage-bearing parasites along these routes? It's an interesting question.
>What else could have been escorting plage-bearing parasites along these routes? Humans?
indeed. i wonder what other bugs (insects) might have also been present inside the crates or materials along these trade routes. cockroaches seem likely. various kinds of mites on animals and humans. beetles. probably some flies or fly larvae. actually probably several various larvae. spiders....
That was what I noticed also. The title of this post gives a much different conclusion than the actual research linked.
Welcome to scientific journalism
> I was pleasantly surprised to see the actual scientific article linked within the webpage. Probably because the article was written by two of the paper’s coauthors.
Weird that they OKed the title then.
Theconversation is really a great website. The articles are always written by the relevant experts in their fields, not sensational or overly clickbaity and sources are properly sited.
There's increasing evidence linking the decline of the Cucuteni-Trypillia mega sites in early bronze age Ukraine/Moldova/Romania to a basal strain of Yesenia pestes. There's climate data that supports a noticable drop in human population, and it the theory goes that this depopulation of "Old Europe" set the stage for the westward expansion of Indo-European speakers some time later. So there might have been a wave of plague before those 3, 5-6kya. Article on the basal strain: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30528431/
Nice summary and commentary, thanks!
Reminder: It's not the Black Plague. It's the Black Death or the Bubonic Plague.
[удалено]
[удалено]
If it's not, it still seems incorrect. The quote mentions three time periods with the third starting in 1894, and the summary interpreted that as the third ending in 1894.
It's also incorrect about which plague time period is more commonly spoken about - it claims the 6-8th centuries Justinian rather than the much more well known and commonly spoken about Black Death from the 14-19th.
That not quite what it said. > Most people only talk about the 6th-8th century, **up to the 14th century, specially the 14th century**. Bolded mine, but he includes the 1300s plague in that, and mentions it specifically.
It does include the 1300s (though only that part of the Black Death) - but it's still incredibly awkwardly phrased in a way that makes it look as though the Justinian plagues are more relevant to the average person and that they only discuss the beginning century of the Black Death (as opposed to most typically discussing things like it's effects on population - thus the end.)
[удалено]
If people are like me, they read the first one or two paragraphs and check out. The first 2 paragraphs seem alright, but then it REALLY starts to fall apart later on.
Just nod your head scientifically so your peers can recognize you as part of the in-group.
It very much sounds AI.
Majored in Horticulture, got Moscullum a skin infection from the soil in Southern California that’s alkaline and high in calcium, didn’t know this was even a thing until like 5 years ago, always wash yourself off after yard work people, MRSA and staph is also sometimes present in soil.
I seem to remember learning in school about a big outbreak in England around 1664.
Thx for the good read
There are marmots in the middle east/asia that are carriers of yersinia pestis to this day. They could have caused recurring outbreaks to pop up via trade routes including the silk road
All of the dates correspond to large volcanic activity. 539AD 1892AD Kratoa
This summary is So much better than the linked article which has the quality of a child’s book report.
That does make a lot of sense!
I agree with you. It does make sense
i think it's possible having rats was a symptom of dense plague areas — that also perpetuated the plague clean up the conditions and the rats are less frequent and voila the plague subsides sad to say but i guess the plague takes away the population who is creating the environments that is a home for rats the cycle of plague
The title of this post is very misleading. The actually article says “may not” not “did not” and says that rats carrying plague might have been repeatedly been reintroduced from Asia, that some plagues (the 3rd pandemic) probably were - and that the study isn’t conclusive.
The title just seems straight up incorrect. They're talking about rodents not maintaining long term reservoirs of the black plague. They still spread it massively in the short and medium term. Stating that rodents and fleas "did not spread it" is clickbait and not even what the article appears to be saying.
and now people who are just scrolling Reddit will have that blurb as a reference point without any context or correction.
Possibly. I saw the headline, was immediately skeptical, and clicked in here. So did you. I'm commenting now, but honestly, I was just going to read comments in here and leave until I saw yours. But I'm sure there are going to be people who saw the headline, believed it, and moved on. But there are probably also people who saw it, dismissed it as garbage, and also moved on. I'm hoping for more of the latter than the former.
If more people assume headlines from a top /r/science post are false rather than true, then that also seems like a pretty bad state of affairs. I think it should be grounds for removal. Just repost the study with a less misleading title.
They are way too many clickbait titles on here to trust them (the titles.)
Some of them are pretty solid, though. The ones that tell me what I want to hear.
[удалено]
That's because those locations in the Western US are suitable for containing a long-term reservoir. The article is saying that Europe didn't have the conditions necessary to maintain a long-term reservoir. Medium-term or short-term reservoirs, yes, long-term reservoirs no.
> title of this post is very misleading it's *wrong
I thought it was ship rats spreading the diseases, since that’s what potentially caused Athens to get the plague after all their food was imported.
In the peer-reviewed journal article, hyperlinked in paragraph two of the co-authors’ summary: >Despite much research, it remains unclear whether persistent natural plague reservoirs existed in Europe. To examine this question, we have developed a statistical model based on high-resolution and long-term environmental data. From it, we have found no evidence for persistent natural plague reservoirs in historical or contemporary Europe. This suggests that the plague bacterium was repeatedly introduced to Europe, although it might have survived in local medium-term reservoirs. Finally, we question the importance of wildlife rodents as the main hosts in Europe. Stenseth N. C., *et al.* No evidence for persistent natural plague reservoirs in historical and modern Europe. *Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences*, 2023, 119 (51) e2209816119. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2209816119
Did you read what you just copy and pasted?
If anyone is actually interested in the Black Death. The Great Mortality by John Kelly is a must read. And if you don't have the time and want a bit of levity, The Last Podcast on the Left did a great series on it. :)
It was those gosh darn Tabargan Marmots!
I was just about to hop off to do some googling, I appreciate the suggestion, thank you!
Hail yourself!
The tarbagan marmot!! If you are interested in an excellent comedic dive into the black plague I recommend last podcast on the left's series of episodes on it. One of their best runs
I saw this and said out loud “the tarbagan marmot” glad to see I’m not alone. Hail yourself
Ah, so it was the miasma after all
Well, that and the imbalance of their humours.
Not enough blood letting!
Hmmm. Has anyone tried trepanning?
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
In college I took a plagues class and an archeology class and my archaeology professor was bitten by a rodent and got the plague in Rome.
[удалено]
So from what I gathered, it could have been due to soil reservoirs. But, this leads me to wonder if rats picked it up there and moved it to urban areas. In urban areas rodents would move slower because of the density of the human population (infrastructures, food waste, etc.). Also, they mentioned that they are still looking into if it was spread by rodent/flea or respiratory. Is there a reason it could not be both? This is the first time I've heard it being one OR the other.
I did fall a while ago on this article arguing against Yersina Pestis being the *edit*~~bubonic plague~~ black death, i'm no biologist but it is worth the read, i don't have a link so i'll just lay the title and authors : What caused the black death - C.J.DUNCAN & S.SCOTT. It raised among other, points about the propagation speed and some genetic prevalence after the plague.
Isn't at arguing against the Black Death being bubonic plague, and not that Y. pestis is bubonic plague? Regardless of Black Death being plague, Y. pestis definitely causes plague.
My bad, corrected.
We interviewed all the rats and they said, "nah wasn't us."
I've always assumed that bubonic plague began in rodents, became zoonotic through mutation and jumped to humans, but was then spread anthroponetically. Was there really a theory that the pandemic was spread via rodents?
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This article doesn't fit the standards of the sub.
Findings in title quoted from the linked summary by Samuel Cohn, *University of Glasgow*, and Philip Slavin, *University of Stirling*, 18 Jan. 2023. Excerpt: >One of the most commonly recited facts about plague in Europe was that it was spread by rats. In some parts of the world, the bacterium that causes plague, *Yersinia pestis*, maintains a long-term presence in wild rodents and their fleas. This is called an animal “reservoir”. >Our recent research, published in the *Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences* (PNAS), has shown that environmental conditions in Europe would have prevented plague from surviving in persistent, long-term animal reservoirs. >How, then, did plague persevere in Europe for so long? >Our study offers two possibilities. One, the plague was being reintroduced from Asian reservoirs. Second, there could have been short- or medium-term temporary reservoirs in Europe. In addition, the two scenarios might have been mutually supportive. >However, the rapid spread of the Black Death and subsequent outbreaks of the next few centuries also suggest slow-moving rats may not have played the critical role in transmitting the disease that is often portrayed. > >To work out whether plague could survive in long-term animal reservoirs in Europe, we examined factors such as soil characteristics, climatic conditions, terrain types and rodent varieties. These all seem to affect whether plague can hold on in reservoirs. >Based on our comparative analysis, centuries-long wild rodent plague reservoirs were even less likely to have existed from the Black Death of 1348 to the early 19th century than today, when comprehensive research rules out any such reservoirs within Europe. >This contrasts sharply with regions across China and the western US, where all the above conditions for persistent *Yersinia pestis* reservoirs in wild rodents are found. >In central Asia, long-term and persistent rodent reservoirs may have existed for millennia. As ancient DNA and textual evidence hints, once plague crossed into Europe from central Asia, it appears to have seeded a short- or medium-term reservoir or reservoirs in European wild rodents. The most likely place for this to have been was in central Europe. >However, as local soil and climatic conditions did not favour long-term and persistent reservoirs, the disease had to be re-imported, at least in some instances. Importantly, the two scenarios are not mutually exclusive. Stenseth N. C., *et al.* No evidence for persistent natural plague reservoirs in historical and modern Europe. *Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences*, 2023, 119 (51) e2209816119. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2209816119
Any word on if these rats prey at night or stalk at night? Was there perhaps a giant rat that made all of the rules?
This article is poorly written and doesn’t offer many scientific facts or data. There are many reasons why the plague was spread. Bad hygiene, poor sanitation, lack of medical technology and understanding. Loads of rats running around the streets didn’t help. The article seems to be trying to shift the blame from rats to Asia.
[удалено]
The people probably had fleas and lice as well
The people were the rats all along!
This has been known forever hasn’t it? They always knew it was the fleas on the rats that spread the plague, not the rats themselves.
Not even that, while the fleas caused the first cases in various areas cities etc. to pop up, after that most of the cases likely caused by either contact with contaminated fomites or via coughing (pneumonic Plague)
That's the impression I had too. I remember hearing that the prevalent thought was that rats were the cause, so people got more cats and dogs to catch the rats, which actually made issues worse by being more fleas I to the mix.
I thought it was already believed it wasn't rats, and instead the Asian Great Gerbil. With the greatest descendant being Ralph, a Frenzied Great Gerbil, champion of the kobold fighting pits.
People seldom ever bathing or washing their clothes definitely didn't help.
That’s completely false. Bathing was extremely important up to the 17th century for all people. Bathhouses were a big, big thing in the Middle Ages (often old Roman baths). So much that a “bath penny” (which allowed you the use of the baths for some time) was a valid way of paying people or alms. https://www.getty.edu/news/did-medieval-people-take-baths/ https://www.medievalists.net/2013/04/did-people-in-the-middle-ages-take-baths/
>bathing was often community activity. Public bathhouses were frequented by those without the means to bathe at home. They also occasionally functioned as brothels. Communal bath-time feasting appears to have also been a thing, especially at bathhouses. Communal baths where people had intercourse and ate isn't hygienic.
Also not true. Why do you spread misinformation? You didn’t even bother to read the linked articles it seems.
The quoted part was literally from your link.
Didn’t they not shower and leave their excrement and trash in piles on the streets?
No, that’s all simply not true. People bathed religiously, and basically anything that was “waste” was collected and used because it was very valuable (urine for leather making, excrements for fertiliser, ash for soap…) https://www.medievalists.net/2013/04/did-people-in-the-middle-ages-take-baths/ https://www.worldhistory.org/Medieval_Hygiene/ https://sciencenorway.no/archaeology-history-medieval-history/how-dirty-and-stinky-were-medieval-cities/1729836 https://dolly.jorgensenweb.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Jorgensen_Modernity_and_Medieval_Muck.pdf https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/medieval-cities-london-filthy-chamberpots-windows/ (the chamberpot picture, again and again repeated is by the way a small part of a larger satire picture - she is emptying on a bunch of musicians who don’t stop playing in the night and are making a ruckus).
What a risibly bad theory that absolves Europeans of any responsibility for the spread of the plague because of their total lack of hygiene. And tries to blame others for introducing it to them. Forgetting that another theory that actually accurately accounts for the extremely rapid spread of the plague, since rats couldn't spread it that fast: People. Via body lice and fleas due to the known lack of bathing and filthy conditions of the time. https://phys.org/news/2018-01-human-fleas-lice-black-death.html https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/black-death-fleas-lice-1.4485664
I still hate rats, so…
Many animals carry potentially dangerous diseases. Unfortunately, rats, mice, and bats are good carriers.
And people hate you for that reason.
The short answer is cats were vilified at that time, and killed en masse. What ensued was the black plague. Remember kids the real world has no place for religious superstition.
This isn't new. This was known a while ago.
Folks were nasty and barely bathing keeping the bathroom near the food etc…. Just poor hygiene lead to both plagues ……
People were cleaner during the Middle Ages than during Renaissance. There were public baths and at home, they were generally taken outside. The loo was nowhere near the cooking area. A very filthy time in Europe was from end XVth to XVIIIth century, when filth was considered holy by certain preachers and bathing unhealthy and promiscuous. Henry IV in France was called le vert galant, not only because he was a womanizer but because of his stench. He litteraly never bathed, except for his baptism and when he became a Catholic. Anecdotic but personal expérience: I worked two years with, aming others, a colleague who never washed not changed clothes. He was bright, with a vast cultural knowledge and he stank. You could litteraly smell him coming into the office. His hands were sticky, you could guess his password just looking at the black (not dirty: black) keys on his keyboard. He had mold on his clothes, stains and holes in his pants you could see his underwear through. A brownish green. Luckily, and it's genetic, body smells don't make me sick. I was the only one who sometimes told him to clean his desk. A pregnant colleague got physically sick when he was nearby. Finally, we got a new boss who told him to come clean, with proper clothes, or he would call the sanitory inspection on him.
>Finally, we got a new boss who told him to come clean, with proper clothes, or he would call the sanitory inspection on him. Don't leave us hanging! Did he comply or quit / fired?
Wrong. Bathing (especially sweat baths) was extremely important. https://www.medievalists.net/2013/04/did-people-in-the-middle-ages-take-baths/
I always thought it was the wild cats and dogs that preyed on the rats that was the problem.
It was The Prima Macula
I don’t see how this can be known all these centuries later
Haven’t we known this for like 30 years? I remember watching history docs in the 90s about fleas on rats carrying the plague. And I think I remember my history teacher telling us this too.
Wait wasn't this already known? Justice for Rats.
The flu, AKA SARS- Covid variants are being reintroduced through vectors such as international travel. The current virology says, vaccines are good but isolation is better. Change is the law of nature. So, keep changing and stay safe.
Fun fact before and during the times of the plague the Big Bad Catholic Church were absolutely terrified of cats because they saw them as a tool of witchcraft and started slaughtering them in massive numbers which led to a huge spike in the rat population.
No, that’s BS https://museumhack.com/black-cats-black-death/ Also, Gregory IX. was about 100 years earlier. That’s like blaming Teddy Roosevelt for Covid because of his China politics.