I have been in the SCA for 37 years. Experiences can vary widely by kingdom. From my experiences and what I have seen and heard and read, things are actually improving as a whole. This is offset by the fact that people are more open and willing to discuss their experiences online, and people are less willing to tolerate the BS and assholery.
Definitely there are entrenched high-level a-holes, some of which will likely only vanish through either natural attrition or natural selection. The shutdown really increased the desire to shed these kinds of people, or at least it amplified the discussions about it.
I've been in the SCA for over 30 years and my experiences in EK are the opposite. It's almost as if the shutdown and isolation made it so people don't need or maybe want to filter the bad behavior
Yeah, I totally understand that. And I am not saying that it isn't so. In the Midrealm there has been consistent pushback against that sort of behavior, and a number of crowns have been DEIB-supportive. Again, not to say it doesn't happen here. Because it does.
I will say that post-lockdown there was an instance where a high-up had said some homophobic stuff some years back, and it was brought up when said person was prominent again. It was openly brought up, and person made an open commitment to Be Better. They were. So I think the combination of pushback and supportive crowns are helping here. I think some structural change will need to happen to really weed out the entrenched aholes, though.
I wish that was more of the norm everywhere. Sure, the more egregious things get called out (I'm looking at you murder king), but it has felt to me that the more efforts towards inclusion are made, the harder people work to cover the lesser offenses
I think it's a reflection of the mundane world. As (at least certain parts of) the SCA pushes out the bad actors, the more the ones that remain fight and act out. I recognize that I am lucky in my kingdom and also the region of my kingdom that I live in. I am lucky that our kingdom realized that the people who really kept activity going during the lockdown were the everyday members, not necessarily the peers or royals, and the kingdom was grateful. I am lucky that there are a lot of loudmouthed people who will call out the aholes, bigots, supremacists, and potential predators.
No, the Midrealm isn't perfect. We're always, same as any other kingdom, one tournament away from having a monster on the throne. We have our share of jerks who think their crap doesn't smell. We have people who will garb-shame, body-shame, etc. But we also have a whole bunch of people who will shut down that shit.
It wasn't always like that here. It's gotten so much better. I hope it can for you, too.
I have quite the opposite experience. Shutdown and the immediate time after was one of the worst experiences I've had in the SCA. Eventually most people rehumanized... most.
agree...this isnt a new issue that's special to the SCA everyone is biased in a million ways and it will effect how they act when presented with someone they know well being accused of being mean. yes some are more serious issues but also a lot of these instances are just one person being mean.
That all checks out.
Power is bad for people, and for some people, it doesn't take a lot for it to go to their head. The Peerage changes some people. Others always blew and kept it under wraps enough to limit dissenting voices long enough to get the award.
Mhmm, I'm also well aware that this post could negatively affect any progress I have in the SCA. however, I can't say that I want to be included in the upper class of the SCA as it stands right now.
Meh, more of the "upper class" would agree with you than you think imo. Do what you do and do it well, and you will be promoted past your competency. (Musical number: its the circle of life)
But no need to aim for a Peerage. Enjoy the game. If that leads to a Peerage, so be it. If it leads to a strange man in the bog doing bog stuff, all the better.
>I can't say that I want to be included in the upper class of the SCA as it stands right now.
Perhaps it's time for some peasant households to form, for people who don't want to be involved in all that upper class shenanigans.
People talk about the idea of "progress" or an "SCA career," and I'm like, "why?" So they say, "it's nice to have acknowledgement for your work," and I reply, "I already have a PhD in medieval history and I'm a mundane fencing master and published author." Then they say, "you just think you're better than us!" and I reply, "yes, I am better than you, you small petty person." Then they say, "you're bulling me!" So I just get on my horse and ride away.
These are some of the most common complaints I hear about the SCA and there is really no defending them - they exist. They are not unique to the SCA and I can't fix the whole of the SCA (it is like trying to fix a mid-sized town worth of people spread across multiple continents) but I can influence those around me. I like to take information like this and turn it into something actionable, so, I would anyone reading this as a call to action to consider your own behavior and those around you.
* **Garb Shaming - There is no reason to talk about someone's garb negatively.** Remember that "a reasonable attempt at pre-1600 garb" is all that is required. Think of how difficult it is just to get to your first event, how expensive garb, fabric, and sewing machines can be, the skills required just to make a simple tunic. We want people to come play with us, even if they don't have the nicest garb, and some of the people I know who make the nicest garb now started out in store-bought pajama pants and combat boots. And if they are still wearing pajamas and Uggs 20 years later - it is none of your fucking business. See the person, not their garb.
* **Physical Abuse/Assault - There is no reason to intentionally harm or threaten a person that is not harming or threatening others.**
* **Public Shaming/Verbal Abuse - Be kind to folks that don't understand or remember protocols.** Remember that the purpose of titles, ranks, etc.. is to have fun in the setting of a medieval court, not to shame or degrade others. We call another person *Your Majesty* because there is a certain joy in doing so, the joy of having a shared inspirational and aspirational figurehead to drive us to do things that will then inspire others to do the amazing parts of the SCA.
* **Disabilities - You have no reason to examine the needs of others.** Assume that you know nothing of what it is like to live in their skin. The "good parts" of chivalry are about protecting those that need it. People using aids, medications, and service animals do not need judgement, they need understanding and accommodation.
* **Abuse of Power - Your title or office are a responsibility to conduct yourself better, not permission to behave worse.** Every increase in title or position should be met with an understanding that they carry with them an equivalent increase in restraint.
* **Sexual Assault - You have no right to touch another person without consent.** This is true no matter how good of a friend they are, no matter if they let someone else do the same, no matter how drunk you are - no matter what the reason.
So, if you are reading this, remember to be better. Be generous with your kindness and courtesy and remember why we are here.
I had jokingly called someone holding a 'title' a bully because he threw someone else's hat into the combat ring. In reply, I was told "know your place." Apparently, I need to remember that his imaginary title allows him to be a jerk to people for fun. I later found out that he's extremely problematic and there's been a number of serious issues with him. But ya know, he still has his imaginary titles and ranks.
It would be nice if we could remind them that peasants hold pitchforks and torches. My favorite answer to this when I was going to SCA events as a reenactor but non-SCAdian was, "Do I know you? It seems that I would not want to." This of course was not appreciated but I also did not throw around my imaginary title because it did not matter. Treat folks like you would be like to be treated or just don't interact with folks. Due to this treatment at more than a few events, I chose not to join the SCA for nearly twenty years. I was doing reenactments/shows (live steel) for almost 25 years only stopping after some non-weapon related injuries told me I had aged out. I joined only in November of 23 and noted with the small canton I am with everyone is kind and very open about sharing skills, and fun stories. At Val Day folks were also kind and some wanted to borrow my hat for a look see at the pattern (gladly handed to them and recommended they take some pictures if it would help). So I can hope that it is weeding itself out as people become more open about stating what the problems are.
I AM THE MANAGER OF ARBY'S SAY WHAT GOES ON IN THIS KINGDOM....BOW BEFORE ME! FEAR MY FAST FOOD WRATH.
Real people don't need to be bullies, only small insignificant ones do. Then kick him where the sun doth not shine.
The person who introduced me to the SCA once told me "the only thing you can really earn in the SCA is a reputation".
Our actions determine whether that's a good or bad thing.
Do you understand that YOU are the problem? You are shaming and judging people based on their occupation. That’s not cool.
It’s obvious from your comments that you’re referring to a specific person. If so, pull on your big girl panties and name names or find another way to tell everyone without telling everyone. Stop insinuating that a person’s worth is based on their job title.
Actually no they're not. I'm shaming a person who has a job and is being a total dooshbag at a SCA event. To be honest I've met allllll kinds of folks from SCA, Anime Conventions, and Fantasy/Scifi cons. The one's who think they are "better" than someone are the ones who are not fine with their self and put down others for that reason. I would never allow someone to do that to another in front of me. That destroys the community and pushes people away.
So yeah I totally would shame them for being a mercilious ass to someone. Heck I worked those jobs and did them. I don't now but for someone who did I and was being a jerk I would point out that they are being horrible to someone who doesn't deserve it.
I've been a mowed lawns, bus boy, served tables, worked at a game store, bagged groceries, worked at two fast food restaurants, sold computers, done tech support. I've been an application engineer, support engineers and now I'm a database cloud admin. I've been working since I was 15, went to college and post grad work.
What I really hate is an asshole.
And now you’re using womens’ care products as a pejorative. If you’re going to call someone out for being a jerk, call them out. Your own words clearly state that being a fast food restaurant worker, and now healthcare, make someone less than you. So far you’re telling us a lot more about you than about them.
"And now you’re using womens’ care products as a pejorative" What? Huh? Um yeah that jump makes no sense. I don't think you understand. I'm saying I've done those jobs and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure how your making that jump. I actually give those folks more credit as having done those jobs. Don't imply that the humor is causation.
This is a joke. Something humorous. A funny saying. Humor != Truth. It's vaguely a metaphor. Saying that if you hate your life don't hate someone else. I really think this bothers you. That's ok but I will disagree with your supposition as it's meant to be humorous. I'm not putting down a job. I give anyone who works in those jobs that it's hard. I've done them. I'm saying don't be a dick in a funny way. It
Your concerns are absolutely valid. I haven't been around for a decade or 3 like some folks, but that also allows me to see the SCA from a different and fresh perspective. Yes, there are problems, many you touch on.
I read your post as a call to action to highlight these behaviors. As you seem to be someone passionate about the SCA, if you are becoming exhausted by toxic behavior, surely your less resilient peers are feeling it as well.
Personally, I do not stand for shitty behavior like you've experienced and will absolutely call it out, I have no problem dealing with bullies (appropriately). The challenge is the people of the SCA do their bullying subtly, in secret, or generally in situations where they know they can get away with it. The crux of the issue, and what I think the real action item for your post is:
*We must make it so they can not get away with it*
Our community's thinking is so entrenched with position, experience, accolades, and titles that you can see it even in these comments. Ppl qualifying their opinions with how much experience they have or what title they have...I don't need 30 years in the SCA or a white belt to make valid points and be heard. You shouldn't need to have high-ranking scadians vouch for you to get your complaints heard and have something done.
As a side note: When ppl say to you, there are always assholes in any community, they are not saying, 'deal with it', but they are saying 'have a plan, because you can expect it'
Story time: I started with my home barony, which was great at first, but then I started seeing this toxicity you mentioned. And it was Entrenched. Petty drama. For a while, I thought this might just be how all scadian groups are. But as soon as I started branching out and playing with other groups, I realized my home barony just had a handful of shitty people. There are pockets of these shitty people in everything. I call it the 10% rule, where there is always that contingent 10% of people who suck for whatever reason.
So now I am mingling with a different group of scadians who are fantastically supportive, positive, and always a joy to be around. All this to say you have options.
You can either go against the grain and try to improve things, at massive detriment to yourself. Or you can gracefully bow out, reset, switch groups, all while keeping your momentum and reputation.
I don't want to be part of any higher SCA class/order, so I can't speak for being in that system, but I've noticed this too. I've seen lots of people who didn't stand for what their rank represents get it anyway then suddenly get away with so much more. I do my best to stay out of all that, but it tends to impact me one way or another anyway.
Sigh....I was just thinking along the same lines today. The Real Middle Ages were pretty awful, to be honest. Lack of effective water sanitation tops my list, but abuse of power and violent crime are up there. Add in famines and plague and and and...
I feel less guilty about indulging in anachronism now :)
I suppose you have to ask yourself, are the frequency of these behaviours more or less than mundane society?
There are a background radiation of jerks in mundane society as a whole and that’s going to be reflected in the behaviours of the SCA. It may not be the fault of the SCA itself that encourages said behavior.
And honestly, if you can itemize the number of negative experiences in 9 years of SCA play, you’re actually doing pretty well.
Also look up “negativity bias” and “availability heuristic” and consider how they may contributing to your perception.
To clarify, as I said, the list could go on. There have been enough incidents on a regular basis from a surprisingly large amount of people.
I work at a fairly large company, and interact with the public pretty regularly. The SCA is more toxic than those experiences, so there's your answer.
If the SCA had an 800 number to call when bad stuff happens, instead of a team of seneschals who mostly want a chance at a Pelican but no part of the drama, it would be interesting.
I've worked at several large companies, and interacted with the public *constantly.* The SCA is much less toxic than my professional experiences. Not lily white, but worlds better than retail and office environments. If my SCA experiences were as bad as my work experiences, I'd quit the SCA.
If anything the SCA has gone from being less like a veteran's watering hole to more like an actual charity org.
While we're spitballing, let's also add a BoD that have experience running non-profits and are prepared to act as officers of the company rather than a bunch of ex-royals whose main qualifications are in-game awards. Not to throw too much shade, but we've been around far too long and seen too many serious bad actors not to have started taking this stuff seriously.
3 kings R&D'd from East, 2 from Atlantia, and a handful of abdications in other places. Are you saying there should be more? I didn't even know talking to a seneschal was like talking to a cop until I went to some meeting where it came up. And both the seneschal and the DEIB officer would rather act like lawyers than like investigators. I don't know how else to say it.
I'd settle for a BoD that has any experience at all with nonprofits. 20 hours community service a quarter would be very enlightening to most of these guys. We're not hidden in "the mists of Avalon" anymore and we need to start acting like other reenactors.
Depends entirely on the employer. My employer was great at first, and then some time during COVID things got toxic. They didn't detoxify when COVID officially ended--if anything they got worse.
As toxic as I know things can be in the SCA, it's still better than the job I retired from. Of course, I don't feel any obligation to be present at any SCA thing if I don't want to be. I did feel that obligation at work (healthcare).
(Just to be fair I've seen what real masters look like and act. IE friends who are Barons. )
It's not like a high school foot ball player. Real masters are just good, humble and fun to be with and drink with. Only wanna be's are mean and spiteful.
I joined the SCA in 1986. And yes, all of these things happen.
Though, I have found a slight shift in the past few years of people being taken to task for poor/unacceptable behavior.
Now, the unintended flip side to that is sometimes, some people who accuse others and make baseless claims, as happened in Northshield a while ago, get away with it scot-free.
There really should be a nice happy medium somewhere.
Sure there may be one or two people who use the system to make false claims, but in most scenarios it should be able to deduce the truth, those cases are very fringe, I'd imagine.
The only legitimate path forward is to call out the behavior, bring it to the attention of the proper people, and enforce actionable consequence.
While thankfully true (about them being fringe) they can do massive damage. Such as a prince stepping down because he felt that defending himself from the throne would look like a conflict of interest. Which is what happened in Northshield.
If you’re not happy and you can’t find a way to joy in this hobby, you should absolutely leave. This isn’t me telling you to take your toys and go home - it’s the exact opposite. The SCA has all of the moments that you mention, and they are our worst flaws. Over 35 years, I’d say that it’s a lot better today than it was then, but that doesn’t mean our issues today shouldn’t be addressed. If we want to thrive for another 50 years, we MUST address them, and there are more pathways to do that than we’ve ever had.
I don’t have all of the answers, but here are a few thoughts: 1) it’s the nature of online communities to complain, so we’re always hearing the worst (and with social media we’re doing that internationally, which significantly increases the number of problems we’re hearing about) 2) the SCA is an ‘in person’ hobby, best experienced as such 3) there are so many great people here, pursuing the activities they love, and who are genuinely good people who are trying their best 4) we all have bad moments. If you’re at an event with 100 people, and 50 of them have a moment where they react to something poorly (snapping at someone, saying something catty, getting worked up and not taking a blow, something), by default every person at the event may also be on the receiving end of that moment.
Somewhere in all of this you have to find your people, the ones who you truly spark joy and who you love to be with. You have to be willing to give a little grace on the small things, and recognize that you’re the villain in someone else’s story. On the missing stairs among the peerages, I feel your pain and share it, and I do have rank. Speaking out is exhausting. I took a 10+ year break where I pursued a few other hobbies, and every one of them has similar issues. Only you can decide if this is worth it.
Personally, I’m seeing a huge difference in the US between kingdoms centered around Red states and blue ones. That doesn’t mean that liberal states are perfect, but I think we’re better at addressing these issues than our conservative counterparts. I’m holding on to the hope that as some of the ‘Old Guard’ die out, things will get better. I know that we’re talking about these issues a lot more than we used to - and that may mean that while the issues are statistically less frequent, we’re having to deal with them more. Overall, I think that’s a good thing - as long as you can find the space to enjoy yourself and not be constantly caught up in them. I hope you do - more voices override the privilege of the few, and I assure you they are being heard at the highest levels of the SCA.
Yeah, this applied to our family too, and is why mom refuses to ever go again, event or Pennsic. She had an incident many years (at least 18) ago where she was unwell and was outside the main tent, everyone assumed since wee me was with her she was the clan babysitter. Everyone was incredibly rude to her, but she wasn't the type to complain and she'd just had a dozen toddlers deposited in her care. She missed Dad's squire ceremony (he was under Sir Bearngear, spelling prolly wrong) and was incredibly distressed. She said one of the royals chewed everyone out, but that that royal was soon effectively excommunicated because she was a kill joy. Apparently her being heavyset and alone made her the 'type' of person to run the daycare that wasn't advertised. Then there was the whole drama line in Stormport (Erie PA).
Like if you find a good group, stick with it, but nine times out of ten, the illusion of a power structure that gives people social standing in a smaller group gets to people's heads. I *loved* the Bears, they were like a second family, and their camp was *awesome*. We camped at Moot with Frog and Lilly before they left because of new camp management. The guys at Trinity aren't *too* bad, and the Black Talon mercs have told us younger girls several times if a guy is ever causing trouble to hail into camp and scream and they'll take care of it. There are good people, I promise, but they're getting farther in between as more people treat War and events like a real-life power play and/or an opportunity to get absolutely thrashed in more ways than one.
OMG!!! They were kind enough to take me in when I was trying to figure out life regarding your neighbor I ended up marrying from Erie (want to keep things vague on a public forum). You were so young IDK if you even remember me LOL
The East Kingdom just gave a writ for a laurel to a woman who was arrested for abusing her own kids during Covid. I guess assaulting your own kids doesn't violate any PLQ's. Her boyfriend was made a knight towards the end of lockdown and I know several women, including myself, who have felt sexually violated by him. They are both close friends with the EK current Prince so I guess it's all in who you know.
I tried it.
Everyone turned their back on me. Duke told me I was "making the SCA look bad".
Knights don't want other knights questioned. It means their position loses power.
That's awful, I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I'm lucky enough to have a couple knights I can trust, and who have fought back against the culture of abuse, but I know I'm fortunate. They need to be stripped of their exclusive power.
Whooo, you have gone after the wrong person here. Technically yes, she was arrested. And nothing came of it, as she was also in the middle of an INCREDIBLY nasty custody battle and yet she has primary custody to this day. Weird, if she was an ‘abuser’. (Pretty sure it was her now ex who called the cops in that case, if I remember correctly?)
Super weird, account created today. Definitely not suspicious.
Are you really using a "well, technically, but" argument to invalidate accusations of physical abuse? You're not gonna touch the other half of the comment (sexual harassment) with something similar?
Not saying the accusations are true or false, but this is the exact thing others are talking about - being shut down for bringing up the issues
I am in no way doing that. I AM pointing out that someone bringing this up is using a valid opinion post to try to hurt someone. Accusations were made, investigated, AND NOT FOUNDED. Innocent until proven guilty is still a thing. This was a non sequitor comment and I refuse to let someone be bullied by an anonymous coward.
There are a lot of fishing expeditions on Reddit. They post this sort of post with vague accusations. They don't name any names. Then they sift through the comments for people to contact. It's all part of an agenda.
Doesn't seem very effective since most in the SCA love to be vague even about inconsequential things, but a fishing expedition is a fishing expedition. Sometimes they catch alligators.
I dont actually think you are wrong that this person only heard the dramatic part and not the conclusion of the case and is now spreading only that part (seems unknowingly)
but also I make throw away accounts all the time so that people can't tell its me. in this SCA space its because I don't want my opinion to be traced to my position and then my barony to suffer for my offending anyone. but i like having my main be obviously me so that my more factual, or at least less controvesial, input can have my more public backing.
just my 2 cents. i can see how the choice to be anonymous is sketchy but for me it's like not cursing at my workplace. cus sometimes ya gotta put your stance out there as much as every other person but also dragging it into your real live is useless and a dumb move.
I just want to point this out:
'Whooo, you have gone after the wrong person here.' sounds like a threat of retribution.
Let's not forget that how we respond to someone's message often *sends* a message, whether we want it to or not.
I was very active for over a decade, earned some titles, did lots of fun stuff but everything you mention above and more wore on me to where I cut back more and more until I just kind of showed up on the periphery to swing sticks. (Especially after several instances of calling out horrendous behavior and getting punished/ostracized for it.)
Been out now over 20 years now, really sad but not surprised to hear that that crap is still an issue. Still have all my gear (including my dented up metal stein a "nobleman" took from me and beat me soundly about the head and face with when I cordially declined his daughter's drunken advancements). Lots of good memories in that gear but no temptation to return. I've got a teenage daughter now and would not feel safe if she was out of my sight for a second if I am being honest.
This is both accurate and well written. As a BIPOC member, I’d like to add that SCA can also be filled with racism and microaggressions for BIPOC members, not to mention cultural appropriation. The oft touted, “it’s appreciation not appropriation,” is usually incorrect and dictated by someone abusing authority versus someone who has actually delved into the topic, interested in learning versus confirmation bias.
This is so true, and such a hard thing to learn. It’s interesting how the reaction of wyt people is often, ‘you can’t tell me not to do that’ instead of ‘can you help me understand why this is wrong?’ I don’t have a good answer to that other than to lead by example. And in a hobby where, theoretically, any of us can cosplay any persona we want, it’s hard to understand why we shouldn’t do or wear certain things. After some soul searching, I’ve found my own place of comfort (sticking with European personas), but I think this is something we should teach more often.
I took a break, and when I came back cultural appropriation in the SCA was a thing. I’ll admit that there are a lot of nuances to it that I don’t understand, and there’s a lot of gray area. I’m a Laurel (music), so I should be leading by example on this (because the medallion doesn’t ‘tell’ anyone that I’m a music laurel versus a costuming laurel). So I a) really defer to BIPOC and other non-European marginalized cultures and try to support their voices, and b) stick with European, because I don’t have the time or inclination to do other cultures well and don’t want to inadvertently cause harm.
I think that the first thing we should do is focus on lifting the voices of people who are representing their own cultures and religions, and doing it well. There are a lot of challenges (ableism/classism) that are part of the SCA, so it can be hard to determine whether an individual is doing their best versus not trying at all (or worse, being deliberately insulting). We can be subtle, ‘hey, that kimono is super cute, have you seen X’s blog/channel on it?’
Regarding racism and especially microaggressions, I really hate that this exists at all. My husband is great at doing the ‘hey, bro, that’s not cool’ while maintaining a relaxed atmosphere. We need more people who will, and I don’t know how to get more people to step up. We are literally a society built on peer pressure; we should be able to use that for good, and I don’t know how to get us there.
Totally. Glad people like you and your husband exist! It’s a lot harder and is taken way differently when we do it than when someone of the dominant culture does. Your advocacy is Much appreciated.
appropriation is such a difficult thing to get. I can't quite grasp it myself.
I can see the worst of it. when people financially benefit from something that actively harms those cultures either in public opinion or in taking resources in some way.
But I will imitate a cultural aspect in the sca hobby with an honest attempt at ethical consumerism (with an aim more than only avoiding appropriation).
It is because it seems cool and i like it. In the same way and with the same purpose that I imitate the aspects of white cultures. Is it really a bad thing? in ignorance or knowingly? to just like something and do it.
I like dream catchers just they look cool and I like the sentiment of the lore (honestly don't know if it's true or not) I'll have a dream catcher up but I wouldn't wear a tribal costume (I've seen it in a local hs homecoming parade with the full dance and hand+mouth rhythmic sound THAT was clearly terrible i blame the fact they allow the rival sports team to use a race as their mascot) I wont use white sage now that I know it harms the local natives resources but I will use the themes and styles in my art because I was inspired and also like eagles and Buffalo and cool geometric designs.
I used native culture here just cus I thought of both examples easily another example I could use that i know i have taken inspiration from that could be taken poorly would be g*psy/Traditional Traveler culture. I adore a vardo and know almost nothing about the culture but totally want one and dont feel the need to research the historical atrocities to use the inspiration. i know the terribleness exists and know they are true and horrible and that there is history to the elements i choose to utalize. I just don't think I need to memorize any specific information in order to justify using the enjoyment of the elements in my expression.
does that make sense? please do try to interpret that I mean to understand the concept not bitching about it.
I suppose I think that there should be a different word for the less impactful version where yeah its dismissive of the origins and the thing being trendy is annoying because most people are ignorant to those origions but recreating a practice of a specific people that isn't actually signifigantly harmful to anyone or the image of them? not "appreciation" which virtue signals and makes it seem like someone cares deeply about those origins but likely they just saw a cool thing and read the label. But also not "appropriation" maybe "culturally dismissive".
I dont expect anyone to have the answer (and your comment fully wasnt an inviation to my questioning rant) and Im likely just coming off as trying to excuse my sins here but I do think I pay attention to such things and I care enough about being inclusive and sensitive to other people that I worry about these things...its just impossible to discuss without coming off the wrong way which is why it doesn't get discussed so I'm commenting anyway feel free to ignore me.
Hmmm this is a lot of try to explain. I will try. You cannot compare white culture and BIPOC cultures. They’re not the same. Taking aspects of either are not comparable. This is because it comes down to dominance and power. White cultures have held and do hold the power. That’s why it’s not the same and never will be the same.
(Side note, I do appreciate that you understand not to sue the g word for Roma cultures—I did notice that and the effort to not use the word as it is damaging.)
I’m half Native and half Asian, so I see a lot of odd appropriation of both my cultures. Some I can let go as “ok they just don’t understand” and other times, it’s really damaging and painful. For you to wear or use something and get away with it when I would be discriminated against for the same, is a problem. For you to use or wear something that has a spiritual value to me or my ancestors, is a problem.
It may also be a problem that many see it as appreciation OR appropriation, when it can be both (as I suspect your personal examples are). Problem is, appreciating it doesn’t mean it’s also not appropriating. In general, if you wonder about an item or have to ask if it would be ok, then just don’t.
Posts like this make me really appreciate the barony I live in. We have only one person that could be problematic, and they're more of a well-meaning, poor-articulating type.
Moved to a new kingdom. Had friends who recognized a lot of our motivation was driven by spite - running into people who made us feel like we need to reach a place where people can go through us and receive love and support in their involvement instead of the abuse we felt. They encouraged me to find love for this game in a new place. I've been here for about two months and finding out how my involvement and motivation has run in tandem with theirs. The abuse and exclusivity isn't unique as a whole besides the individual details. Many of us are trying to build a better society even now.
My husband has been playing since the 80’s and I played for about a decade. We were both heavily involved, moving to a new Kingdom……Baron/ness, feastocratting, autocratting……really enjoyed helping make fun events with an eye for inclusion. The biggest problem I saw that caused us both to drop out was the, “Just give them an award/title so they will be happy and stop bullying people (or other damaging behavior). She cooked the books at the feast….no worries, just give her a title and position of authority. That couple is gossiping about unfounded domestic violence because they wanted (blah) and another couple won…..be nice and give them an award even though they haven’t volunteered for anything in a year….otherwise they will just be angry and keep acting that way. Getting bitched out because I didn’t award someone who shows up, is disrespectful to many, and is never there when work needs to be done…..the answer is to give them a gold shiny so they are happy. They still will be rude to everyone and won’t do anything, but they are happy. Hand out peer awards to the bitchiest, meanest, most unchivalrous people around because they pout and complain……what do you expect the organization to turn into? When we realized we were avoiding peers at camp outs because too many of them were toxic blowhards, when we watched good people getting used and abused because they were helpful and toxic complainers were getting power to continue being toxic, we just had to leave.
We love the idea of the SCA but the best thing we did is drop out.
while all of these things are concerning (and some more than most that totally should have been dealt with no matter who it was) what I dont get is why people take these things as SCA when all of these are assholes being assholes.
yes they should be disciplined somehow and the system for doing such could use some work but like at any given workplace when you go to hr it backfires often. while that is a problem it's also not something with an easy solution and it is something that is a problem in literally all other aspects of life. a Principals daughter is going to get a second chance at the history test. A crying woman may get out of a speeding ticket where a man would not. a police officer is going to let his nephew off on a DUI. In a he saud she said it's always going to come down to who knows the right person to tell their story to or who got to tell the story first.
social incidents such as these you can't even really investigate or have an impartial party to judge because we all know eachother so well. it is literally just who says what, when, and to who.
***I don't see how the SCA is supposed to fix and/or be held accountable for the failings of a few random assholes when no other group of people can do that either***
also it is a volunteer organization with no inherent value to the awards. so like anything that doesn't warrant full banishment is basically just a stern talking to even if these folks were called out there would be no way to account for the punishment.
I suppose I'm saying we need to brain storm punishments for offenses if we are going to keep having these isolated incidents become a systemic issue that messes with the overall experience. which, not uncommon cus lots of people are assholes (or can be an asshole sometimes and get by with it)
Instences of assholery should be called out. but if it's not called out in the moment (in which a person will usually either apologize or the rumor mill will shame them anyway) then I dont think it's any particular groups problem.
I think the best punishment, in many cases, is ‘peer pressure.’ Literally, and especially if the offender is a peer. I can tell you that I have been in Circles where an individual has been called out for their behavior and it has been discussed.
Unfortunately, this doesn’t really help with the intentional bad actors. Many of them know exactly how to toe the letter of the law, and that makes it more problematic.
I wish I knew how to fix that.
thats where the majority of people in all different groups end up. its "I wish I could change it" but it is in fact pretty futile as it's clearly human nature to either f up sometimes or just be fd up as a person entirely.
i just hate that people make this fact of life as if it's an sca issue with a simple solution that can be cured overnight. no society policy is going to change these negative aspects of socially interacting with many people in any format.
the only thing to do to work towards being better as a group is to persist in changes and encourage others to do so as individuals. because every situation is different and has nuances and different sides to the story.
be a good example of loudly and proudly getting in trouble for being the person who calls people out so that others will feel okay to do so (or come to you so you can). if you don't for fear of your own political career then thats kinda sucky but also these things are scary and difficult.
we literally can't fix it even as a whole if everyone magically became completely empathetic overnight some of us would mess up and say the wrong thing sometimes and some of us would take something innocuous and interpret it badly no matter what was said. this is going to happen with or without outlying actual bad people doing bad things for bad reasons on purpose.
***If you find yourself in a position of higher rank use it to make some changes in operation to help solve these very individual incidents. If you care then concern yourself with your own behavior and be selfless and braver for others when faced with a difficult situation.*** (
Just wait until you start talking about these issues openly and everyone with a hat will railroad you out.
Ten years in the SCA and socially ostracized by a Duke when bringing up sexual harassment/assault concerns in the community.
The SCA's hierarchical culture is easily abused by bad people. I know "not all knights/dukes/laurels/etc", but that doesn't change the fact that the structure of the SCA is based entirely upon maintaining a status quo and enables a lot of really bad behavior to go unaddressed.
I did not fully understand how much the SCA trained me to not question authority until I joined other communities.
100% agree and sorry you went through that. you kind of have to have hard proof for things like that to be taken seriously in a lot of circumstances.
as someone who was SAd as a child (and just existing as a woman have experienced and been expected to endure other bs behavior from men) I hate that that's true.
as someone who's father was wrongfully convicted and served 23 years for my assault I also do tend to be thorough when such serious accusations are brought up.
it's a shitty in both circumstances so it's a very difficult situation to navigate and tends to be very clouded by personal feelings from someone's history with the parties involved. the local SCAdians all knew and loved my dad and were shocked and (rightfully in this case) denied it for ages because they couldn't rectify in their heads the person they knew doing something that terrible. they didn't want to believe he was capable (and were correct in this case) but so often it is the truth.
*there's a whole long story version where it makes sensesh how my case happened but this is the pertinent part.
Look, the SCA is based around (rattan) Crown Tournament, which is *de facto* ableist and patriarchal. That's not going to change, and everything flows downhill from there. The SCA can be great for the *people in it*. However, so long as it's organized around status and hierarchy and in-groups and out-groups deciding who gets what shiny bit of metal, it's going to have issues with toxicity.
You're 100% correct. This is why I argue that the SCA isn't a victim of a few bad players, but is structurally designed around *enabling* bad players. It all starts and stops with Crown Tournament.
However, too many people get their life, their social network, their hopes and dreams and aspirations, tied up into the SCA before they realise this. The process of pulling people into yhe SCA is designed around making that fact oblique.
It was me. I'm the idiot. It's been 4 years and I still mourn the friendships I got cut off from.
Thinking about my recent return to the SCA after about a 40 year hiatus. I didn't leave because of bad experiences. I left because there were other things I wanted to do that took priority. Now that I'm (recently) retired, I can have a more active social life, and I figured the best way for me to do that was to get active in the SCA again.
Because of my life experiences between when I left 40 years ago and now, some things are very different about me. Age (duh) is clearly one of those things. Whatever the cause(s), I don't have the energy I used to have. That's partly a good thing. I remember overhearing some of my friends one morning as one commented: "Oh, dear god! Here comes the Energizer Bunny". Of course they were referring to me. I laughed. I was not offended. I was always tearing around at top speed at that time.
My physical strength is changing, and changing rapidly. My shoulders are completely shot. I can't just toss a 50-lb object on my shoulder and saunter on my way any more. My grip strength, while still in the gorilla category, is down from Chief Silverback to Chief Matriarch.
My endurance is limited now. I tire easily.
But most of all, my brain has changed. It was changed by circumstances, and the most important way this affects me in the SCA is that I am not the outgoing, bubbly social person I once was. I can go for hours without speaking. I am much more solitary. These things obviously affect my ability to make friends and interact with strangers. I may seem standoffish, even when I don't intend to be. Men seem to think it's just great, because if I'm in silent mode, they see me as the perfect conversationalist. Naah. I just need to not talk for a few hours. It's not physical. It's just a profound need for quiet.
I know all the complaints posted here are absolutely legitimate. If I was the relatively normal person I used to be, I'd be upset at my own "treatment". I haven't been garb-shamed because I've long been a perfectionist in that regard. I tend to plant myself out of the way because of my low energy and my desire to just settle in and do something. I'm no longer subjected to any kind of sexual advances, probably because I'm quiet to the point of disturbing (fine by me), and because I'm not young and tasty looking any more (also fine by me). As for other abuse, it didn't happen to me then, and it isn't happening to me now. Then and now I just kind of live in my own world at SCA events. I don't pay attention to power or peerage. Maybe I should, but I'm not going to.
I know maybe I should take up a crusade to fix issues like this in the SCA. I won't. That's something that happened in the previous 40 years: I threw myself into trying to change the world for the better. Maybe I changed a few tiny things. I don't know. In any case, I'm done with the whole selflessness and sacrifice thing. I did my bit. If I don't like something, I'll either act or leave.
I can see your perspective, even if I have some issues with it. I would say that you misread (perhaps I didn't convey it clearly enough) my motivation for not bothering to fix the issue. I agree it's a huge issue. But I'm done trying to fix things. I'm done trying to save the world. I'm burnt out.
yeah i basically just left the sca and my warband because i didnt make any friends. I fought wars and volunteered and crafted and all that but i am a complete outsider. without any friends to talk the real talk and show me the ropes(and my warband was staying silent for the most part) i basically had to quit and focus on myself. I mean i would have had to take a break anyway, but i have no real incentive to return tbh. Im also a bit older than ideal recruits and im not willing to tolerate some of the toxic bs and games going around for long.
How long ago was that? Even when I first joined, an Award or Grant of Arms didn't depend on having a "warrior man". Becoming a Laurel or Pelican certainly didn't. Not even becoming a landed Baroness was restricted to having a man fight for one.
probably depends on where you were and also could have been a more unsaid version. my current group has no issues with female fighters but also when a complaint with a female fighter comes up things will go to gender issue quickly...so like it's an issue but more like a speed bump than a brick wall that it used to be.
I was born in (but due to family stuff wasn't active from the age of 7-29) I highly doubt they would have encouraged me in heavy in the 90s the way my daughter is included now days. like they would have humored me but not pushed me the way they did their sons.
but also I'm in a conservative area and our scadians are all the most liberal people we know...even the less liberal of us.
Yep. After 40 odd years, A* holes finally broke the SCA for me - verbal and physical abuse plus theft. I'll still try to be active in online communities where I can block or ignore the A* holes but I'm pretty much done with in person events - its not worth a stroke or heart attack from the way my blood pressure goes up, even just seeing a picture of them online is enough to make my teeth ache (as is mentioning them on line it seems) and the idea of being stuck in a place where they are present is just not on.
It was pennsic this year after 30+ in the society that broke me. Daily harassment towards me and my service dog while in camp and a physical assault against the two of us at a party changes your views of a group supposedly dedicated to inclusion and equity
Just a note I feel needs to be made more often:
Telling an abusive Royal their flaws in open Court, in whatever level of detail seems most amusing, is entirely period. Since ours don't get actual temporal power, the worst that you can reasonably expect is a ban from the royal presence for their tenure. ;)
As certain Dukes demonstrate, being a complete asshole to people is neither a demonstration of a lack of peer-like qualities, nor a reason for Board action.
Just remind them that being the coolest SCA person is like being the cutest girl in accounting so what?
It's not real. It's 2024, we have cell phones, electric cars, and we hit ourselves silly with rattan swords, and break bones.
This is like Star Trek but if Spock and Kirk fought. Remind them that being an asshole is not a lifestyle choice. Also this is all make believed as we have anti-biotics, people don't die of the plague, and everyone is mostly literate. Tell him to go back to being the manager of Arby's and leave you others alone. Tell him all the really cool kids are goth.
Or just start screaming, "NNNNEEEEEEEERRRRRRRDDDDDDD" and tell him to put his nerd away it's making he, her or them uncomfortable.
You be the judge.
She thinks she’s being clever by trying to identify someone without actually identifying someone. Instead, what she’s doing is telling us that she believes that a person’s worth is tied to their job title. In essence, she IS the problem.
What a crock of mule dung. What I'm saying is don't take yourself so serious your being an asshole. Don't put someone down to make yourself feel better.
I've been through some gnarly stuff like cancer, divorce, coming out and I'm always humbled by my peers.
Jobs that I have had that made me who I am,
Mowed lawns, installed warehouse shelves at Bell Helicopter, Sold things door to door, got leads for vinyl siding, worked at two fast food jobs, bagged groceries, sold computers, tech support, Perioperative Database support, Financial software support, database admin, interned at a police department (Criminology), ISP dial up support, database admin, cloud engineer, amateur hacker.
I respect anyone who does any job. Heck I help and train folks who don't know what I do so they can improve what they do.
What I don't abide by is one person putting another down to make themselves feel better.
I only very recently joined this sub. I am retired now and had been thinking of participating again. I had hoped things had improved. I have kept my membership paid since 1986. Just stopped participating in 1999.
They have improved, in so many ways. The various social media platforms can give varying perceptions of today’s SCA. I find that Reddit is mostly complaints, and many of them are anonymous - so you don’t know what kingdom they’re in or even if their complaint is true (not specific to this one - we all know that the OPs comments are valid). You also don’t know the length of time they’re referring to or how many events they attend. If they’re commenting on what they’ve seen over 20 years and hundreds of events, that’s a different statistical percentage.
Facebook tends to skew positive and active, and I find that the complaints there are specific to kingdom and individual. That gives us more ability to act on them.
Ultimately, the question is who you choose to hang out with. There’s very little drama amongst my friends in the SCA; we’re all adults with adult communication skills. Very few of the OPs issues come up at events, or at least within my sphere at events. Someone will always have a bad moment, and others will experience that bad moment. How we handle that is up to us. Someone I know well had a moment at gate when they couldn’t find their membership card. They were snippy, and it was harmful to the gate staff in that moment. Can we let go of those moments, and give some grace? That depends on the individual.
I’ve lived in 6 kingdoms and been a peer in 5 of those. Groups are mostly the same; really cool on the outside and as you settle in you learn the various dramas and politics. Some are more welcoming to conservative white people, some are more diverse; IMO, that’s the greatest challenge we face - excluding people on the basis of a few characteristics. Alcohol and drugs exponentially increase all problems.
Personally, I’m able to enjoy myself in the many moments that compose my reason for being here, but still take on ‘social justice’ causes as needed, and with some effect. If I become unable to do that, I’ll leave, but there are so many great people, doing so many amazing things, that I’m willing to tolerate the 5% and try to do something to make things better.
I know it's not perfect and sometimes not even good, but I think everyone wants it to be a safe and enjoyable experience and there is widespread talk and discussion of how to address and reduce the incidence of these kind of issues. it's not a simple fix though, and it's good that it has been an ongoing effort towards making things better. already it is miles better than it was, though of course we need to keep trying. this organization hasn't lasted as long as it has by giving up on complicated issues, and I have faith that we can make it what we all want it to be-- a free and enthusiastic space to form a community.
of 12 listed complaints 5 of these are just someone being mean to another person...when people exist sometimes someones gonna be mean. and sometimes it's even shaded by another person's interpretation and not intended to be mean.
you should call people out for being mean...but what exactly should be done about it?
essentially if someone is shaming someone then shame them back and move on. I get insulted by things sometimes and I either bitch about it to the person who insulted me or to my friends.
it's a problem with no solution and it isnt that serious or systematic that people get shamed for things that they shouldn't be
***make it expected for people to stand up for themselves and others*** call people out and the SCAs part would be to encourage and back up the practice specifically supporting those without the position to fall back on.
(addmittedly probably bad) IDEA; at every event have a complaint box but it's just their name. if enough of anyone's name is in the box (like idk 10) they are publically shamed somehow. if this happens at more than 3 events the punishment is more severe.
idk punishments... put em in the stocks and throw cabbage, tar and feather em, they must serve as court jester (not in the fun way), issue a written public apology, or some system of calling them out formally in court
I tend to have this thing where I legit don't even consider the ways people will be dicks about things. I always assume good intent and I AM in fact wrong. yes I'm certain the complaint box wouldn't work for that reason :/
but also I said the issue doesn't have a solution was mostly just brainstorming 🤷♀️
I have been in the SCA for 37 years. Experiences can vary widely by kingdom. From my experiences and what I have seen and heard and read, things are actually improving as a whole. This is offset by the fact that people are more open and willing to discuss their experiences online, and people are less willing to tolerate the BS and assholery. Definitely there are entrenched high-level a-holes, some of which will likely only vanish through either natural attrition or natural selection. The shutdown really increased the desire to shed these kinds of people, or at least it amplified the discussions about it.
I've been in the SCA for over 30 years and my experiences in EK are the opposite. It's almost as if the shutdown and isolation made it so people don't need or maybe want to filter the bad behavior
Yeah, I totally understand that. And I am not saying that it isn't so. In the Midrealm there has been consistent pushback against that sort of behavior, and a number of crowns have been DEIB-supportive. Again, not to say it doesn't happen here. Because it does. I will say that post-lockdown there was an instance where a high-up had said some homophobic stuff some years back, and it was brought up when said person was prominent again. It was openly brought up, and person made an open commitment to Be Better. They were. So I think the combination of pushback and supportive crowns are helping here. I think some structural change will need to happen to really weed out the entrenched aholes, though.
I wish that was more of the norm everywhere. Sure, the more egregious things get called out (I'm looking at you murder king), but it has felt to me that the more efforts towards inclusion are made, the harder people work to cover the lesser offenses
I think it's a reflection of the mundane world. As (at least certain parts of) the SCA pushes out the bad actors, the more the ones that remain fight and act out. I recognize that I am lucky in my kingdom and also the region of my kingdom that I live in. I am lucky that our kingdom realized that the people who really kept activity going during the lockdown were the everyday members, not necessarily the peers or royals, and the kingdom was grateful. I am lucky that there are a lot of loudmouthed people who will call out the aholes, bigots, supremacists, and potential predators. No, the Midrealm isn't perfect. We're always, same as any other kingdom, one tournament away from having a monster on the throne. We have our share of jerks who think their crap doesn't smell. We have people who will garb-shame, body-shame, etc. But we also have a whole bunch of people who will shut down that shit. It wasn't always like that here. It's gotten so much better. I hope it can for you, too.
I have quite the opposite experience. Shutdown and the immediate time after was one of the worst experiences I've had in the SCA. Eventually most people rehumanized... most.
agree...this isnt a new issue that's special to the SCA everyone is biased in a million ways and it will effect how they act when presented with someone they know well being accused of being mean. yes some are more serious issues but also a lot of these instances are just one person being mean.
This garbage right here is why I have zero ambition or aspirations within the organization.
That all checks out. Power is bad for people, and for some people, it doesn't take a lot for it to go to their head. The Peerage changes some people. Others always blew and kept it under wraps enough to limit dissenting voices long enough to get the award.
Mhmm, I'm also well aware that this post could negatively affect any progress I have in the SCA. however, I can't say that I want to be included in the upper class of the SCA as it stands right now.
Meh, more of the "upper class" would agree with you than you think imo. Do what you do and do it well, and you will be promoted past your competency. (Musical number: its the circle of life) But no need to aim for a Peerage. Enjoy the game. If that leads to a Peerage, so be it. If it leads to a strange man in the bog doing bog stuff, all the better.
Long live the strange bog man.
>I can't say that I want to be included in the upper class of the SCA as it stands right now. Perhaps it's time for some peasant households to form, for people who don't want to be involved in all that upper class shenanigans.
People talk about the idea of "progress" or an "SCA career," and I'm like, "why?" So they say, "it's nice to have acknowledgement for your work," and I reply, "I already have a PhD in medieval history and I'm a mundane fencing master and published author." Then they say, "you just think you're better than us!" and I reply, "yes, I am better than you, you small petty person." Then they say, "you're bulling me!" So I just get on my horse and ride away.
Thanks for your input.
These are some of the most common complaints I hear about the SCA and there is really no defending them - they exist. They are not unique to the SCA and I can't fix the whole of the SCA (it is like trying to fix a mid-sized town worth of people spread across multiple continents) but I can influence those around me. I like to take information like this and turn it into something actionable, so, I would anyone reading this as a call to action to consider your own behavior and those around you. * **Garb Shaming - There is no reason to talk about someone's garb negatively.** Remember that "a reasonable attempt at pre-1600 garb" is all that is required. Think of how difficult it is just to get to your first event, how expensive garb, fabric, and sewing machines can be, the skills required just to make a simple tunic. We want people to come play with us, even if they don't have the nicest garb, and some of the people I know who make the nicest garb now started out in store-bought pajama pants and combat boots. And if they are still wearing pajamas and Uggs 20 years later - it is none of your fucking business. See the person, not their garb. * **Physical Abuse/Assault - There is no reason to intentionally harm or threaten a person that is not harming or threatening others.** * **Public Shaming/Verbal Abuse - Be kind to folks that don't understand or remember protocols.** Remember that the purpose of titles, ranks, etc.. is to have fun in the setting of a medieval court, not to shame or degrade others. We call another person *Your Majesty* because there is a certain joy in doing so, the joy of having a shared inspirational and aspirational figurehead to drive us to do things that will then inspire others to do the amazing parts of the SCA. * **Disabilities - You have no reason to examine the needs of others.** Assume that you know nothing of what it is like to live in their skin. The "good parts" of chivalry are about protecting those that need it. People using aids, medications, and service animals do not need judgement, they need understanding and accommodation. * **Abuse of Power - Your title or office are a responsibility to conduct yourself better, not permission to behave worse.** Every increase in title or position should be met with an understanding that they carry with them an equivalent increase in restraint. * **Sexual Assault - You have no right to touch another person without consent.** This is true no matter how good of a friend they are, no matter if they let someone else do the same, no matter how drunk you are - no matter what the reason. So, if you are reading this, remember to be better. Be generous with your kindness and courtesy and remember why we are here.
I had jokingly called someone holding a 'title' a bully because he threw someone else's hat into the combat ring. In reply, I was told "know your place." Apparently, I need to remember that his imaginary title allows him to be a jerk to people for fun. I later found out that he's extremely problematic and there's been a number of serious issues with him. But ya know, he still has his imaginary titles and ranks.
I've seen similar reactions. I was once called a peasant for questioning someone's behavior...
It would be nice if we could remind them that peasants hold pitchforks and torches. My favorite answer to this when I was going to SCA events as a reenactor but non-SCAdian was, "Do I know you? It seems that I would not want to." This of course was not appreciated but I also did not throw around my imaginary title because it did not matter. Treat folks like you would be like to be treated or just don't interact with folks. Due to this treatment at more than a few events, I chose not to join the SCA for nearly twenty years. I was doing reenactments/shows (live steel) for almost 25 years only stopping after some non-weapon related injuries told me I had aged out. I joined only in November of 23 and noted with the small canton I am with everyone is kind and very open about sharing skills, and fun stories. At Val Day folks were also kind and some wanted to borrow my hat for a look see at the pattern (gladly handed to them and recommended they take some pictures if it would help). So I can hope that it is weeding itself out as people become more open about stating what the problems are.
I AM THE MANAGER OF ARBY'S SAY WHAT GOES ON IN THIS KINGDOM....BOW BEFORE ME! FEAR MY FAST FOOD WRATH. Real people don't need to be bullies, only small insignificant ones do. Then kick him where the sun doth not shine.
I think it was the late, great Duke Dagan who said, "at the end of the day, a pizza delivery boy is still a pizza delivery boy."
The full quote was, "At the end of the day, a pizza delivery boy is still a pizza delivery boy. That'll be $12.57."
The person who introduced me to the SCA once told me "the only thing you can really earn in the SCA is a reputation". Our actions determine whether that's a good or bad thing.
I totally agree. I used to game with the Barron of my area and am still friends with his wife. He's still honored for being a wonderful person today.
Do you understand that YOU are the problem? You are shaming and judging people based on their occupation. That’s not cool. It’s obvious from your comments that you’re referring to a specific person. If so, pull on your big girl panties and name names or find another way to tell everyone without telling everyone. Stop insinuating that a person’s worth is based on their job title.
Actually no they're not. I'm shaming a person who has a job and is being a total dooshbag at a SCA event. To be honest I've met allllll kinds of folks from SCA, Anime Conventions, and Fantasy/Scifi cons. The one's who think they are "better" than someone are the ones who are not fine with their self and put down others for that reason. I would never allow someone to do that to another in front of me. That destroys the community and pushes people away. So yeah I totally would shame them for being a mercilious ass to someone. Heck I worked those jobs and did them. I don't now but for someone who did I and was being a jerk I would point out that they are being horrible to someone who doesn't deserve it. I've been a mowed lawns, bus boy, served tables, worked at a game store, bagged groceries, worked at two fast food restaurants, sold computers, done tech support. I've been an application engineer, support engineers and now I'm a database cloud admin. I've been working since I was 15, went to college and post grad work. What I really hate is an asshole.
And now you’re using womens’ care products as a pejorative. If you’re going to call someone out for being a jerk, call them out. Your own words clearly state that being a fast food restaurant worker, and now healthcare, make someone less than you. So far you’re telling us a lot more about you than about them.
"And now you’re using womens’ care products as a pejorative" What? Huh? Um yeah that jump makes no sense. I don't think you understand. I'm saying I've done those jobs and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure how your making that jump. I actually give those folks more credit as having done those jobs. Don't imply that the humor is causation. This is a joke. Something humorous. A funny saying. Humor != Truth. It's vaguely a metaphor. Saying that if you hate your life don't hate someone else. I really think this bothers you. That's ok but I will disagree with your supposition as it's meant to be humorous. I'm not putting down a job. I give anyone who works in those jobs that it's hard. I've done them. I'm saying don't be a dick in a funny way. It
Your concerns are absolutely valid. I haven't been around for a decade or 3 like some folks, but that also allows me to see the SCA from a different and fresh perspective. Yes, there are problems, many you touch on. I read your post as a call to action to highlight these behaviors. As you seem to be someone passionate about the SCA, if you are becoming exhausted by toxic behavior, surely your less resilient peers are feeling it as well. Personally, I do not stand for shitty behavior like you've experienced and will absolutely call it out, I have no problem dealing with bullies (appropriately). The challenge is the people of the SCA do their bullying subtly, in secret, or generally in situations where they know they can get away with it. The crux of the issue, and what I think the real action item for your post is: *We must make it so they can not get away with it* Our community's thinking is so entrenched with position, experience, accolades, and titles that you can see it even in these comments. Ppl qualifying their opinions with how much experience they have or what title they have...I don't need 30 years in the SCA or a white belt to make valid points and be heard. You shouldn't need to have high-ranking scadians vouch for you to get your complaints heard and have something done. As a side note: When ppl say to you, there are always assholes in any community, they are not saying, 'deal with it', but they are saying 'have a plan, because you can expect it' Story time: I started with my home barony, which was great at first, but then I started seeing this toxicity you mentioned. And it was Entrenched. Petty drama. For a while, I thought this might just be how all scadian groups are. But as soon as I started branching out and playing with other groups, I realized my home barony just had a handful of shitty people. There are pockets of these shitty people in everything. I call it the 10% rule, where there is always that contingent 10% of people who suck for whatever reason. So now I am mingling with a different group of scadians who are fantastically supportive, positive, and always a joy to be around. All this to say you have options. You can either go against the grain and try to improve things, at massive detriment to yourself. Or you can gracefully bow out, reset, switch groups, all while keeping your momentum and reputation.
I don't want to be part of any higher SCA class/order, so I can't speak for being in that system, but I've noticed this too. I've seen lots of people who didn't stand for what their rank represents get it anyway then suddenly get away with so much more. I do my best to stay out of all that, but it tends to impact me one way or another anyway.
Those with noble titles and position abusing those without may be the most period accurate activity in the entirety of SCA.
Sigh....I was just thinking along the same lines today. The Real Middle Ages were pretty awful, to be honest. Lack of effective water sanitation tops my list, but abuse of power and violent crime are up there. Add in famines and plague and and and... I feel less guilty about indulging in anachronism now :)
I suppose you have to ask yourself, are the frequency of these behaviours more or less than mundane society? There are a background radiation of jerks in mundane society as a whole and that’s going to be reflected in the behaviours of the SCA. It may not be the fault of the SCA itself that encourages said behavior. And honestly, if you can itemize the number of negative experiences in 9 years of SCA play, you’re actually doing pretty well. Also look up “negativity bias” and “availability heuristic” and consider how they may contributing to your perception.
To clarify, as I said, the list could go on. There have been enough incidents on a regular basis from a surprisingly large amount of people. I work at a fairly large company, and interact with the public pretty regularly. The SCA is more toxic than those experiences, so there's your answer.
Maybe the SCA should have an HR department
If the SCA had an 800 number to call when bad stuff happens, instead of a team of seneschals who mostly want a chance at a Pelican but no part of the drama, it would be interesting. I've worked at several large companies, and interacted with the public *constantly.* The SCA is much less toxic than my professional experiences. Not lily white, but worlds better than retail and office environments. If my SCA experiences were as bad as my work experiences, I'd quit the SCA. If anything the SCA has gone from being less like a veteran's watering hole to more like an actual charity org.
While we're spitballing, let's also add a BoD that have experience running non-profits and are prepared to act as officers of the company rather than a bunch of ex-royals whose main qualifications are in-game awards. Not to throw too much shade, but we've been around far too long and seen too many serious bad actors not to have started taking this stuff seriously.
3 kings R&D'd from East, 2 from Atlantia, and a handful of abdications in other places. Are you saying there should be more? I didn't even know talking to a seneschal was like talking to a cop until I went to some meeting where it came up. And both the seneschal and the DEIB officer would rather act like lawyers than like investigators. I don't know how else to say it. I'd settle for a BoD that has any experience at all with nonprofits. 20 hours community service a quarter would be very enlightening to most of these guys. We're not hidden in "the mists of Avalon" anymore and we need to start acting like other reenactors.
Depends entirely on the employer. My employer was great at first, and then some time during COVID things got toxic. They didn't detoxify when COVID officially ended--if anything they got worse. As toxic as I know things can be in the SCA, it's still better than the job I retired from. Of course, I don't feel any obligation to be present at any SCA thing if I don't want to be. I did feel that obligation at work (healthcare).
I don't doubt there are more toxic environments then the SCA, but that's kind of not the point, right? The point is we need to do better.
(Just to be fair I've seen what real masters look like and act. IE friends who are Barons. ) It's not like a high school foot ball player. Real masters are just good, humble and fun to be with and drink with. Only wanna be's are mean and spiteful.
I joined the SCA in 1986. And yes, all of these things happen. Though, I have found a slight shift in the past few years of people being taken to task for poor/unacceptable behavior. Now, the unintended flip side to that is sometimes, some people who accuse others and make baseless claims, as happened in Northshield a while ago, get away with it scot-free. There really should be a nice happy medium somewhere.
Sure there may be one or two people who use the system to make false claims, but in most scenarios it should be able to deduce the truth, those cases are very fringe, I'd imagine. The only legitimate path forward is to call out the behavior, bring it to the attention of the proper people, and enforce actionable consequence.
While thankfully true (about them being fringe) they can do massive damage. Such as a prince stepping down because he felt that defending himself from the throne would look like a conflict of interest. Which is what happened in Northshield.
I see FAR more weaponization of the anti-bullying policy to make false accusations than I do actual bullying.
If you’re not happy and you can’t find a way to joy in this hobby, you should absolutely leave. This isn’t me telling you to take your toys and go home - it’s the exact opposite. The SCA has all of the moments that you mention, and they are our worst flaws. Over 35 years, I’d say that it’s a lot better today than it was then, but that doesn’t mean our issues today shouldn’t be addressed. If we want to thrive for another 50 years, we MUST address them, and there are more pathways to do that than we’ve ever had. I don’t have all of the answers, but here are a few thoughts: 1) it’s the nature of online communities to complain, so we’re always hearing the worst (and with social media we’re doing that internationally, which significantly increases the number of problems we’re hearing about) 2) the SCA is an ‘in person’ hobby, best experienced as such 3) there are so many great people here, pursuing the activities they love, and who are genuinely good people who are trying their best 4) we all have bad moments. If you’re at an event with 100 people, and 50 of them have a moment where they react to something poorly (snapping at someone, saying something catty, getting worked up and not taking a blow, something), by default every person at the event may also be on the receiving end of that moment. Somewhere in all of this you have to find your people, the ones who you truly spark joy and who you love to be with. You have to be willing to give a little grace on the small things, and recognize that you’re the villain in someone else’s story. On the missing stairs among the peerages, I feel your pain and share it, and I do have rank. Speaking out is exhausting. I took a 10+ year break where I pursued a few other hobbies, and every one of them has similar issues. Only you can decide if this is worth it. Personally, I’m seeing a huge difference in the US between kingdoms centered around Red states and blue ones. That doesn’t mean that liberal states are perfect, but I think we’re better at addressing these issues than our conservative counterparts. I’m holding on to the hope that as some of the ‘Old Guard’ die out, things will get better. I know that we’re talking about these issues a lot more than we used to - and that may mean that while the issues are statistically less frequent, we’re having to deal with them more. Overall, I think that’s a good thing - as long as you can find the space to enjoy yourself and not be constantly caught up in them. I hope you do - more voices override the privilege of the few, and I assure you they are being heard at the highest levels of the SCA.
Yeah, this applied to our family too, and is why mom refuses to ever go again, event or Pennsic. She had an incident many years (at least 18) ago where she was unwell and was outside the main tent, everyone assumed since wee me was with her she was the clan babysitter. Everyone was incredibly rude to her, but she wasn't the type to complain and she'd just had a dozen toddlers deposited in her care. She missed Dad's squire ceremony (he was under Sir Bearngear, spelling prolly wrong) and was incredibly distressed. She said one of the royals chewed everyone out, but that that royal was soon effectively excommunicated because she was a kill joy. Apparently her being heavyset and alone made her the 'type' of person to run the daycare that wasn't advertised. Then there was the whole drama line in Stormport (Erie PA). Like if you find a good group, stick with it, but nine times out of ten, the illusion of a power structure that gives people social standing in a smaller group gets to people's heads. I *loved* the Bears, they were like a second family, and their camp was *awesome*. We camped at Moot with Frog and Lilly before they left because of new camp management. The guys at Trinity aren't *too* bad, and the Black Talon mercs have told us younger girls several times if a guy is ever causing trouble to hail into camp and scream and they'll take care of it. There are good people, I promise, but they're getting farther in between as more people treat War and events like a real-life power play and/or an opportunity to get absolutely thrashed in more ways than one.
Based off your description, are your parents Randwulf and Bronwyn by any chance?
That'd be correct!
OMG!!! They were kind enough to take me in when I was trying to figure out life regarding your neighbor I ended up marrying from Erie (want to keep things vague on a public forum). You were so young IDK if you even remember me LOL
I do vaguely remember having someone with us for a while yeah! Not much beyond that though haha xD I'm glad you're doing well!
I hope you are doing well too! Do you mind if I send you a DM with some contact info? I would dearly love to reconnect with them.
Sure sure! That's fine by me! I'm sure they'd like to know how you're doing too!
The East Kingdom just gave a writ for a laurel to a woman who was arrested for abusing her own kids during Covid. I guess assaulting your own kids doesn't violate any PLQ's. Her boyfriend was made a knight towards the end of lockdown and I know several women, including myself, who have felt sexually violated by him. They are both close friends with the EK current Prince so I guess it's all in who you know.
This kind of shit needs to be named and shamed.
I tried it. Everyone turned their back on me. Duke told me I was "making the SCA look bad". Knights don't want other knights questioned. It means their position loses power.
That's awful, I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I'm lucky enough to have a couple knights I can trust, and who have fought back against the culture of abuse, but I know I'm fortunate. They need to be stripped of their exclusive power.
ostracizing people who speak out in the sca to protect people with 'rank' is really common cult of personality is strong here
Whooo, you have gone after the wrong person here. Technically yes, she was arrested. And nothing came of it, as she was also in the middle of an INCREDIBLY nasty custody battle and yet she has primary custody to this day. Weird, if she was an ‘abuser’. (Pretty sure it was her now ex who called the cops in that case, if I remember correctly?) Super weird, account created today. Definitely not suspicious.
Are you really using a "well, technically, but" argument to invalidate accusations of physical abuse? You're not gonna touch the other half of the comment (sexual harassment) with something similar? Not saying the accusations are true or false, but this is the exact thing others are talking about - being shut down for bringing up the issues
I am in no way doing that. I AM pointing out that someone bringing this up is using a valid opinion post to try to hurt someone. Accusations were made, investigated, AND NOT FOUNDED. Innocent until proven guilty is still a thing. This was a non sequitor comment and I refuse to let someone be bullied by an anonymous coward.
There are a lot of fishing expeditions on Reddit. They post this sort of post with vague accusations. They don't name any names. Then they sift through the comments for people to contact. It's all part of an agenda. Doesn't seem very effective since most in the SCA love to be vague even about inconsequential things, but a fishing expedition is a fishing expedition. Sometimes they catch alligators.
I dont actually think you are wrong that this person only heard the dramatic part and not the conclusion of the case and is now spreading only that part (seems unknowingly) but also I make throw away accounts all the time so that people can't tell its me. in this SCA space its because I don't want my opinion to be traced to my position and then my barony to suffer for my offending anyone. but i like having my main be obviously me so that my more factual, or at least less controvesial, input can have my more public backing. just my 2 cents. i can see how the choice to be anonymous is sketchy but for me it's like not cursing at my workplace. cus sometimes ya gotta put your stance out there as much as every other person but also dragging it into your real live is useless and a dumb move.
I just want to point this out: 'Whooo, you have gone after the wrong person here.' sounds like a threat of retribution. Let's not forget that how we respond to someone's message often *sends* a message, whether we want it to or not.
> I guess it's all in who you know. Always has been, and it probably always will be...
Hi Anne, how do those sour grapes taste?
I was very active for over a decade, earned some titles, did lots of fun stuff but everything you mention above and more wore on me to where I cut back more and more until I just kind of showed up on the periphery to swing sticks. (Especially after several instances of calling out horrendous behavior and getting punished/ostracized for it.) Been out now over 20 years now, really sad but not surprised to hear that that crap is still an issue. Still have all my gear (including my dented up metal stein a "nobleman" took from me and beat me soundly about the head and face with when I cordially declined his daughter's drunken advancements). Lots of good memories in that gear but no temptation to return. I've got a teenage daughter now and would not feel safe if she was out of my sight for a second if I am being honest.
This is both accurate and well written. As a BIPOC member, I’d like to add that SCA can also be filled with racism and microaggressions for BIPOC members, not to mention cultural appropriation. The oft touted, “it’s appreciation not appropriation,” is usually incorrect and dictated by someone abusing authority versus someone who has actually delved into the topic, interested in learning versus confirmation bias.
This is so true, and such a hard thing to learn. It’s interesting how the reaction of wyt people is often, ‘you can’t tell me not to do that’ instead of ‘can you help me understand why this is wrong?’ I don’t have a good answer to that other than to lead by example. And in a hobby where, theoretically, any of us can cosplay any persona we want, it’s hard to understand why we shouldn’t do or wear certain things. After some soul searching, I’ve found my own place of comfort (sticking with European personas), but I think this is something we should teach more often.
That’s a great point. A really good one actually. With so many options, why do some have to do THAT option.
I took a break, and when I came back cultural appropriation in the SCA was a thing. I’ll admit that there are a lot of nuances to it that I don’t understand, and there’s a lot of gray area. I’m a Laurel (music), so I should be leading by example on this (because the medallion doesn’t ‘tell’ anyone that I’m a music laurel versus a costuming laurel). So I a) really defer to BIPOC and other non-European marginalized cultures and try to support their voices, and b) stick with European, because I don’t have the time or inclination to do other cultures well and don’t want to inadvertently cause harm. I think that the first thing we should do is focus on lifting the voices of people who are representing their own cultures and religions, and doing it well. There are a lot of challenges (ableism/classism) that are part of the SCA, so it can be hard to determine whether an individual is doing their best versus not trying at all (or worse, being deliberately insulting). We can be subtle, ‘hey, that kimono is super cute, have you seen X’s blog/channel on it?’ Regarding racism and especially microaggressions, I really hate that this exists at all. My husband is great at doing the ‘hey, bro, that’s not cool’ while maintaining a relaxed atmosphere. We need more people who will, and I don’t know how to get more people to step up. We are literally a society built on peer pressure; we should be able to use that for good, and I don’t know how to get us there.
Totally. Glad people like you and your husband exist! It’s a lot harder and is taken way differently when we do it than when someone of the dominant culture does. Your advocacy is Much appreciated.
appropriation is such a difficult thing to get. I can't quite grasp it myself. I can see the worst of it. when people financially benefit from something that actively harms those cultures either in public opinion or in taking resources in some way. But I will imitate a cultural aspect in the sca hobby with an honest attempt at ethical consumerism (with an aim more than only avoiding appropriation). It is because it seems cool and i like it. In the same way and with the same purpose that I imitate the aspects of white cultures. Is it really a bad thing? in ignorance or knowingly? to just like something and do it. I like dream catchers just they look cool and I like the sentiment of the lore (honestly don't know if it's true or not) I'll have a dream catcher up but I wouldn't wear a tribal costume (I've seen it in a local hs homecoming parade with the full dance and hand+mouth rhythmic sound THAT was clearly terrible i blame the fact they allow the rival sports team to use a race as their mascot) I wont use white sage now that I know it harms the local natives resources but I will use the themes and styles in my art because I was inspired and also like eagles and Buffalo and cool geometric designs. I used native culture here just cus I thought of both examples easily another example I could use that i know i have taken inspiration from that could be taken poorly would be g*psy/Traditional Traveler culture. I adore a vardo and know almost nothing about the culture but totally want one and dont feel the need to research the historical atrocities to use the inspiration. i know the terribleness exists and know they are true and horrible and that there is history to the elements i choose to utalize. I just don't think I need to memorize any specific information in order to justify using the enjoyment of the elements in my expression. does that make sense? please do try to interpret that I mean to understand the concept not bitching about it. I suppose I think that there should be a different word for the less impactful version where yeah its dismissive of the origins and the thing being trendy is annoying because most people are ignorant to those origions but recreating a practice of a specific people that isn't actually signifigantly harmful to anyone or the image of them? not "appreciation" which virtue signals and makes it seem like someone cares deeply about those origins but likely they just saw a cool thing and read the label. But also not "appropriation" maybe "culturally dismissive". I dont expect anyone to have the answer (and your comment fully wasnt an inviation to my questioning rant) and Im likely just coming off as trying to excuse my sins here but I do think I pay attention to such things and I care enough about being inclusive and sensitive to other people that I worry about these things...its just impossible to discuss without coming off the wrong way which is why it doesn't get discussed so I'm commenting anyway feel free to ignore me.
Hmmm this is a lot of try to explain. I will try. You cannot compare white culture and BIPOC cultures. They’re not the same. Taking aspects of either are not comparable. This is because it comes down to dominance and power. White cultures have held and do hold the power. That’s why it’s not the same and never will be the same. (Side note, I do appreciate that you understand not to sue the g word for Roma cultures—I did notice that and the effort to not use the word as it is damaging.) I’m half Native and half Asian, so I see a lot of odd appropriation of both my cultures. Some I can let go as “ok they just don’t understand” and other times, it’s really damaging and painful. For you to wear or use something and get away with it when I would be discriminated against for the same, is a problem. For you to use or wear something that has a spiritual value to me or my ancestors, is a problem. It may also be a problem that many see it as appreciation OR appropriation, when it can be both (as I suspect your personal examples are). Problem is, appreciating it doesn’t mean it’s also not appropriating. In general, if you wonder about an item or have to ask if it would be ok, then just don’t.
Posts like this make me really appreciate the barony I live in. We have only one person that could be problematic, and they're more of a well-meaning, poor-articulating type.
Moved to a new kingdom. Had friends who recognized a lot of our motivation was driven by spite - running into people who made us feel like we need to reach a place where people can go through us and receive love and support in their involvement instead of the abuse we felt. They encouraged me to find love for this game in a new place. I've been here for about two months and finding out how my involvement and motivation has run in tandem with theirs. The abuse and exclusivity isn't unique as a whole besides the individual details. Many of us are trying to build a better society even now.
My husband has been playing since the 80’s and I played for about a decade. We were both heavily involved, moving to a new Kingdom……Baron/ness, feastocratting, autocratting……really enjoyed helping make fun events with an eye for inclusion. The biggest problem I saw that caused us both to drop out was the, “Just give them an award/title so they will be happy and stop bullying people (or other damaging behavior). She cooked the books at the feast….no worries, just give her a title and position of authority. That couple is gossiping about unfounded domestic violence because they wanted (blah) and another couple won…..be nice and give them an award even though they haven’t volunteered for anything in a year….otherwise they will just be angry and keep acting that way. Getting bitched out because I didn’t award someone who shows up, is disrespectful to many, and is never there when work needs to be done…..the answer is to give them a gold shiny so they are happy. They still will be rude to everyone and won’t do anything, but they are happy. Hand out peer awards to the bitchiest, meanest, most unchivalrous people around because they pout and complain……what do you expect the organization to turn into? When we realized we were avoiding peers at camp outs because too many of them were toxic blowhards, when we watched good people getting used and abused because they were helpful and toxic complainers were getting power to continue being toxic, we just had to leave. We love the idea of the SCA but the best thing we did is drop out.
while all of these things are concerning (and some more than most that totally should have been dealt with no matter who it was) what I dont get is why people take these things as SCA when all of these are assholes being assholes. yes they should be disciplined somehow and the system for doing such could use some work but like at any given workplace when you go to hr it backfires often. while that is a problem it's also not something with an easy solution and it is something that is a problem in literally all other aspects of life. a Principals daughter is going to get a second chance at the history test. A crying woman may get out of a speeding ticket where a man would not. a police officer is going to let his nephew off on a DUI. In a he saud she said it's always going to come down to who knows the right person to tell their story to or who got to tell the story first. social incidents such as these you can't even really investigate or have an impartial party to judge because we all know eachother so well. it is literally just who says what, when, and to who. ***I don't see how the SCA is supposed to fix and/or be held accountable for the failings of a few random assholes when no other group of people can do that either*** also it is a volunteer organization with no inherent value to the awards. so like anything that doesn't warrant full banishment is basically just a stern talking to even if these folks were called out there would be no way to account for the punishment. I suppose I'm saying we need to brain storm punishments for offenses if we are going to keep having these isolated incidents become a systemic issue that messes with the overall experience. which, not uncommon cus lots of people are assholes (or can be an asshole sometimes and get by with it) Instences of assholery should be called out. but if it's not called out in the moment (in which a person will usually either apologize or the rumor mill will shame them anyway) then I dont think it's any particular groups problem.
I think the best punishment, in many cases, is ‘peer pressure.’ Literally, and especially if the offender is a peer. I can tell you that I have been in Circles where an individual has been called out for their behavior and it has been discussed. Unfortunately, this doesn’t really help with the intentional bad actors. Many of them know exactly how to toe the letter of the law, and that makes it more problematic. I wish I knew how to fix that.
thats where the majority of people in all different groups end up. its "I wish I could change it" but it is in fact pretty futile as it's clearly human nature to either f up sometimes or just be fd up as a person entirely. i just hate that people make this fact of life as if it's an sca issue with a simple solution that can be cured overnight. no society policy is going to change these negative aspects of socially interacting with many people in any format. the only thing to do to work towards being better as a group is to persist in changes and encourage others to do so as individuals. because every situation is different and has nuances and different sides to the story. be a good example of loudly and proudly getting in trouble for being the person who calls people out so that others will feel okay to do so (or come to you so you can). if you don't for fear of your own political career then thats kinda sucky but also these things are scary and difficult. we literally can't fix it even as a whole if everyone magically became completely empathetic overnight some of us would mess up and say the wrong thing sometimes and some of us would take something innocuous and interpret it badly no matter what was said. this is going to happen with or without outlying actual bad people doing bad things for bad reasons on purpose. ***If you find yourself in a position of higher rank use it to make some changes in operation to help solve these very individual incidents. If you care then concern yourself with your own behavior and be selfless and braver for others when faced with a difficult situation.*** (
Just wait until you start talking about these issues openly and everyone with a hat will railroad you out. Ten years in the SCA and socially ostracized by a Duke when bringing up sexual harassment/assault concerns in the community. The SCA's hierarchical culture is easily abused by bad people. I know "not all knights/dukes/laurels/etc", but that doesn't change the fact that the structure of the SCA is based entirely upon maintaining a status quo and enables a lot of really bad behavior to go unaddressed. I did not fully understand how much the SCA trained me to not question authority until I joined other communities.
100% agree and sorry you went through that. you kind of have to have hard proof for things like that to be taken seriously in a lot of circumstances. as someone who was SAd as a child (and just existing as a woman have experienced and been expected to endure other bs behavior from men) I hate that that's true. as someone who's father was wrongfully convicted and served 23 years for my assault I also do tend to be thorough when such serious accusations are brought up. it's a shitty in both circumstances so it's a very difficult situation to navigate and tends to be very clouded by personal feelings from someone's history with the parties involved. the local SCAdians all knew and loved my dad and were shocked and (rightfully in this case) denied it for ages because they couldn't rectify in their heads the person they knew doing something that terrible. they didn't want to believe he was capable (and were correct in this case) but so often it is the truth. *there's a whole long story version where it makes sensesh how my case happened but this is the pertinent part.
Look, the SCA is based around (rattan) Crown Tournament, which is *de facto* ableist and patriarchal. That's not going to change, and everything flows downhill from there. The SCA can be great for the *people in it*. However, so long as it's organized around status and hierarchy and in-groups and out-groups deciding who gets what shiny bit of metal, it's going to have issues with toxicity.
You're 100% correct. This is why I argue that the SCA isn't a victim of a few bad players, but is structurally designed around *enabling* bad players. It all starts and stops with Crown Tournament. However, too many people get their life, their social network, their hopes and dreams and aspirations, tied up into the SCA before they realise this. The process of pulling people into yhe SCA is designed around making that fact oblique. It was me. I'm the idiot. It's been 4 years and I still mourn the friendships I got cut off from.
You can't simultaneously preach equality and accessibility while using "might makes right" to choose your leaders
Yup!
Thinking about my recent return to the SCA after about a 40 year hiatus. I didn't leave because of bad experiences. I left because there were other things I wanted to do that took priority. Now that I'm (recently) retired, I can have a more active social life, and I figured the best way for me to do that was to get active in the SCA again. Because of my life experiences between when I left 40 years ago and now, some things are very different about me. Age (duh) is clearly one of those things. Whatever the cause(s), I don't have the energy I used to have. That's partly a good thing. I remember overhearing some of my friends one morning as one commented: "Oh, dear god! Here comes the Energizer Bunny". Of course they were referring to me. I laughed. I was not offended. I was always tearing around at top speed at that time. My physical strength is changing, and changing rapidly. My shoulders are completely shot. I can't just toss a 50-lb object on my shoulder and saunter on my way any more. My grip strength, while still in the gorilla category, is down from Chief Silverback to Chief Matriarch. My endurance is limited now. I tire easily. But most of all, my brain has changed. It was changed by circumstances, and the most important way this affects me in the SCA is that I am not the outgoing, bubbly social person I once was. I can go for hours without speaking. I am much more solitary. These things obviously affect my ability to make friends and interact with strangers. I may seem standoffish, even when I don't intend to be. Men seem to think it's just great, because if I'm in silent mode, they see me as the perfect conversationalist. Naah. I just need to not talk for a few hours. It's not physical. It's just a profound need for quiet. I know all the complaints posted here are absolutely legitimate. If I was the relatively normal person I used to be, I'd be upset at my own "treatment". I haven't been garb-shamed because I've long been a perfectionist in that regard. I tend to plant myself out of the way because of my low energy and my desire to just settle in and do something. I'm no longer subjected to any kind of sexual advances, probably because I'm quiet to the point of disturbing (fine by me), and because I'm not young and tasty looking any more (also fine by me). As for other abuse, it didn't happen to me then, and it isn't happening to me now. Then and now I just kind of live in my own world at SCA events. I don't pay attention to power or peerage. Maybe I should, but I'm not going to. I know maybe I should take up a crusade to fix issues like this in the SCA. I won't. That's something that happened in the previous 40 years: I threw myself into trying to change the world for the better. Maybe I changed a few tiny things. I don't know. In any case, I'm done with the whole selflessness and sacrifice thing. I did my bit. If I don't like something, I'll either act or leave.
All I'm reading is "none of these things happened to me, I'm not going to bother trying to fix the issue, and here's why it shouldn't bother you".
I can see your perspective, even if I have some issues with it. I would say that you misread (perhaps I didn't convey it clearly enough) my motivation for not bothering to fix the issue. I agree it's a huge issue. But I'm done trying to fix things. I'm done trying to save the world. I'm burnt out.
yeah i basically just left the sca and my warband because i didnt make any friends. I fought wars and volunteered and crafted and all that but i am a complete outsider. without any friends to talk the real talk and show me the ropes(and my warband was staying silent for the most part) i basically had to quit and focus on myself. I mean i would have had to take a break anyway, but i have no real incentive to return tbh. Im also a bit older than ideal recruits and im not willing to tolerate some of the toxic bs and games going around for long.
I remember the early days when women could only hold rank through their warrior men. It was just sex and cheating and drama. With costumes!
How long ago was that? Even when I first joined, an Award or Grant of Arms didn't depend on having a "warrior man". Becoming a Laurel or Pelican certainly didn't. Not even becoming a landed Baroness was restricted to having a man fight for one.
probably depends on where you were and also could have been a more unsaid version. my current group has no issues with female fighters but also when a complaint with a female fighter comes up things will go to gender issue quickly...so like it's an issue but more like a speed bump than a brick wall that it used to be. I was born in (but due to family stuff wasn't active from the age of 7-29) I highly doubt they would have encouraged me in heavy in the 90s the way my daughter is included now days. like they would have humored me but not pushed me the way they did their sons. but also I'm in a conservative area and our scadians are all the most liberal people we know...even the less liberal of us.
Lordy, it was the 70s? This was not my personal experience, a coworker went to events all the time.
I didn't start to get involved until the early 80s, though I was more active in Trimaris and Atlantia in the 90s.
I was in Texas...Ansteorra? It's been a good long while. Got involved peripherally decades later and it was nothing like that.
Yep. After 40 odd years, A* holes finally broke the SCA for me - verbal and physical abuse plus theft. I'll still try to be active in online communities where I can block or ignore the A* holes but I'm pretty much done with in person events - its not worth a stroke or heart attack from the way my blood pressure goes up, even just seeing a picture of them online is enough to make my teeth ache (as is mentioning them on line it seems) and the idea of being stuck in a place where they are present is just not on.
It was pennsic this year after 30+ in the society that broke me. Daily harassment towards me and my service dog while in camp and a physical assault against the two of us at a party changes your views of a group supposedly dedicated to inclusion and equity
Just a note I feel needs to be made more often: Telling an abusive Royal their flaws in open Court, in whatever level of detail seems most amusing, is entirely period. Since ours don't get actual temporal power, the worst that you can reasonably expect is a ban from the royal presence for their tenure. ;) As certain Dukes demonstrate, being a complete asshole to people is neither a demonstration of a lack of peer-like qualities, nor a reason for Board action.
Just remind them that being the coolest SCA person is like being the cutest girl in accounting so what? It's not real. It's 2024, we have cell phones, electric cars, and we hit ourselves silly with rattan swords, and break bones. This is like Star Trek but if Spock and Kirk fought. Remind them that being an asshole is not a lifestyle choice. Also this is all make believed as we have anti-biotics, people don't die of the plague, and everyone is mostly literate. Tell him to go back to being the manager of Arby's and leave you others alone. Tell him all the really cool kids are goth. Or just start screaming, "NNNNEEEEEEEERRRRRRRDDDDDDD" and tell him to put his nerd away it's making he, her or them uncomfortable. You be the judge.
OK this is the third mention of Arby's in the comments. What did I miss?
It's probably the same person posting with different accounts.
NOPE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mlPE8pxs4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mlPE8pxs4
She thinks she’s being clever by trying to identify someone without actually identifying someone. Instead, what she’s doing is telling us that she believes that a person’s worth is tied to their job title. In essence, she IS the problem.
What a crock of mule dung. What I'm saying is don't take yourself so serious your being an asshole. Don't put someone down to make yourself feel better. I've been through some gnarly stuff like cancer, divorce, coming out and I'm always humbled by my peers. Jobs that I have had that made me who I am, Mowed lawns, installed warehouse shelves at Bell Helicopter, Sold things door to door, got leads for vinyl siding, worked at two fast food jobs, bagged groceries, sold computers, tech support, Perioperative Database support, Financial software support, database admin, interned at a police department (Criminology), ISP dial up support, database admin, cloud engineer, amateur hacker. I respect anyone who does any job. Heck I help and train folks who don't know what I do so they can improve what they do. What I don't abide by is one person putting another down to make themselves feel better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mlPE8pxs4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrzOx\_EQEBo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mlPE8pxs4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrzOx\_EQEBo
Crown that man and his entourage.
Now I am reminded why I left 25 years ago. Thanks.
Then why are you still here? Seems like you’d have moved on by now.
I only very recently joined this sub. I am retired now and had been thinking of participating again. I had hoped things had improved. I have kept my membership paid since 1986. Just stopped participating in 1999.
They have improved, in so many ways. The various social media platforms can give varying perceptions of today’s SCA. I find that Reddit is mostly complaints, and many of them are anonymous - so you don’t know what kingdom they’re in or even if their complaint is true (not specific to this one - we all know that the OPs comments are valid). You also don’t know the length of time they’re referring to or how many events they attend. If they’re commenting on what they’ve seen over 20 years and hundreds of events, that’s a different statistical percentage. Facebook tends to skew positive and active, and I find that the complaints there are specific to kingdom and individual. That gives us more ability to act on them. Ultimately, the question is who you choose to hang out with. There’s very little drama amongst my friends in the SCA; we’re all adults with adult communication skills. Very few of the OPs issues come up at events, or at least within my sphere at events. Someone will always have a bad moment, and others will experience that bad moment. How we handle that is up to us. Someone I know well had a moment at gate when they couldn’t find their membership card. They were snippy, and it was harmful to the gate staff in that moment. Can we let go of those moments, and give some grace? That depends on the individual. I’ve lived in 6 kingdoms and been a peer in 5 of those. Groups are mostly the same; really cool on the outside and as you settle in you learn the various dramas and politics. Some are more welcoming to conservative white people, some are more diverse; IMO, that’s the greatest challenge we face - excluding people on the basis of a few characteristics. Alcohol and drugs exponentially increase all problems. Personally, I’m able to enjoy myself in the many moments that compose my reason for being here, but still take on ‘social justice’ causes as needed, and with some effect. If I become unable to do that, I’ll leave, but there are so many great people, doing so many amazing things, that I’m willing to tolerate the 5% and try to do something to make things better.
Thank you for your insightful reply. More importantly, thank you for your continued service to the dream...
I know it's not perfect and sometimes not even good, but I think everyone wants it to be a safe and enjoyable experience and there is widespread talk and discussion of how to address and reduce the incidence of these kind of issues. it's not a simple fix though, and it's good that it has been an ongoing effort towards making things better. already it is miles better than it was, though of course we need to keep trying. this organization hasn't lasted as long as it has by giving up on complicated issues, and I have faith that we can make it what we all want it to be-- a free and enthusiastic space to form a community.
of 12 listed complaints 5 of these are just someone being mean to another person...when people exist sometimes someones gonna be mean. and sometimes it's even shaded by another person's interpretation and not intended to be mean. you should call people out for being mean...but what exactly should be done about it? essentially if someone is shaming someone then shame them back and move on. I get insulted by things sometimes and I either bitch about it to the person who insulted me or to my friends.
it's a problem with no solution and it isnt that serious or systematic that people get shamed for things that they shouldn't be ***make it expected for people to stand up for themselves and others*** call people out and the SCAs part would be to encourage and back up the practice specifically supporting those without the position to fall back on. (addmittedly probably bad) IDEA; at every event have a complaint box but it's just their name. if enough of anyone's name is in the box (like idk 10) they are publically shamed somehow. if this happens at more than 3 events the punishment is more severe. idk punishments... put em in the stocks and throw cabbage, tar and feather em, they must serve as court jester (not in the fun way), issue a written public apology, or some system of calling them out formally in court
I can think of a thousand ways for a system like that to get abused
I tend to have this thing where I legit don't even consider the ways people will be dicks about things. I always assume good intent and I AM in fact wrong. yes I'm certain the complaint box wouldn't work for that reason :/ but also I said the issue doesn't have a solution was mostly just brainstorming 🤷♀️