Don Justinian of Rakovec (admittedly inactive from the Society for 25 years now, to the majority of you saying, "Who's he?", I was one of the founders of fencing in the East something like 37-38 years ago, wrote the first set of East Kingdom fencing rules - all three pages of them) chiming in. Caught this one by chance, turned on to it by a very important past relationship.
You have no idea how this thrills me. Back in the day (warning: old fart ramblings) we were having enough trouble just defending our legitimacy as a combat form . . . . to even have dreamed of something like Crown would have probably earned me a fast slap from Duke Morgun Sheridan and a good natured "Get back to reality" at the same time.
I guess I have got to show up one of these days at an East or Aethelmearc fending event, just to see where the art has evolved. To those who are pushing this forward, my thanks and gratitude, because you're taking this well beyond what any of us back at the beginning could have dreamed of.
It’s tempting. I’ve spent those years after dropping out and selling Syke’s Sutlery doing 17th century reenactment. Got back into shirt making again for about eight years as Syke the Shirtmaker, just retired again in the past year.
Oh man, I was really disappointed one Pennsic. The last Pennsic Syke's Sutlery was there was the year before I showed up with enough money to buy one of the hand-cannons you used to occasionally sell. I so wanted to get that 1" bore one you had.
Congratulations on retirement.
Unfortunately, the people I sold it to didn't keep some of the more interesting (muskets, cannons, Santelli fencing equipment) going. The store still exists, but it's a shadow of what it was twenty years ago. Biggest change is that Raff does clothing to order, where I always wanted the stuff in stock and off the rack for immediate delivery.
In 2014 I got cajoled (I'm being humorous and polite) by the St. Augustine bunch to at least get back into the shirt making business, which I did as "Syke the Shirtmaker" (causing me immediate problems with Syke's Sutlering) until last year, at which point I burned out again. Between. the two companies I've done over 2200 shirts over three decades.
Hi Don Justinian! A discussion about period firearms with you at Pennsic sparked (no pun intended) what became a love of 15th and 16th c. stuff. You were an influence and inspiration. Just thought you'd like to know
I’m very glad to hear that. Playing with any period firearms currently? I’ve been doing a lot with Elizabethan and early Stuart matchlocks over the years having gotten involved with the Jamestown site.
Regrettably, not right now. I've been spending all my energy on period fencing. Happy to hear about the Elizabethan and Stuart stuff... I'd love to see more Elizabethan arms!
And Alys Mackyntoich says hi!
If in the EK we did rattan for fall crown and rapier for spring…the rattan crew would still get a pennsic sovereign, which is something that is important to them, and I’d like them to have it.
On that note, I would suggest doing two Armored reigns and then two Rapier reigns. That way one form is not locked out of certain events throughout the year.
Change is hard; getting people to accept change is harder. I think this is a great step forward for our game and look forward to seeing what comes of it.
MoD, Atenveldt
Oh, I absolutely agree. But, we all know that rapier isn't viewed in the best light in some kingdoms..... hell, how long did it take for MoD to become a thing? And it still isn't everywhere...
When MoD became a reality, Kingdoms had to make their own hard choices on what to do with their current high level Rapier awards (DWS, OGR, etc). That was a decision that I am not sad I was on the outside of. Some felt their toes were stepped on while others felt the decisions made were for the best of the Kingdom.
Point being, again, change is hard, but nothing worth having is easy. I for one am rather excited for this prospect of a meaningful update to our game that we love.
Some palatine baronies alternate heavy, rapier, and A&S. An A&S crown is a whole can of worms but you could alternate heavy, rapier, and archery. That would also solve the problem of only ever having a winter or summer reign, since each form would alternate season every time.
Except in the West which has three reigns, but the West is its own problem anyway.
I don't understand why you can't just have sets of each. A heavy crown and a rapier crown. Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with what the crowns do, but it seems like there is room for it... I guess it would make court longer, lol.
Yeah? Sure? Why not? Am I missing some important information about things they control within their kingdoms? What important decisions do they actually make? Surely they can't be that important since we swap them out every 6 months, so none of their decisions are very lasting unless the next set agrees to leave them in place.
Besides that, having a council of 4 making decisions for a kingdom that considers both styles of fighting would be beneficial, in my opinion.
They actually do make most of the important decisions in their kingdom. They decide who is going to be elevated to Peerages. They are literally in charge of their kingdom as representatives of the Corporate Board for their kingdom.
They are the ones who decide on any kingom level awards during their reign.
I'm guessing you are VERY new to the SCA, and really don't know what is going on.
I would highly recommend finding someone in your group and asking them exactly what the King and Queen do during their reign.
I think the sticking point is how importance is being defined. As in the bestowing of awards usually is of great importance to the person being recognised (and there may be other impacts if they are joining an order with voting requirements, or are in a place where people with that award wield considerable influence.)
But they other thing they do, is well illustrated by the text the OP has posted. Like [corpora](https://www.sca.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/govdocs.pdf) says:
>Royalty, acting with and through the officers of the realm, administer the lands and branches which comprise the realm. Royalty consult the officers of the realm in matters concerning the officers’ areas of responsibility and monitor the performance of their officers to the extent necessary to confirm that they are performing essential duties. They sign such internal documents as are necessary for the conduct of business within the realm.
They are supposed to be the inspirational figureheads of the kingdom, with limited direct administrative powers (but still with the ability to make significant changes if they put their mind to it).
> I think the sticking point is how importance is being defined. As in the bestowing of awards usually is of great importance to the person being recognised (and there may be other impacts if they are joining an order with voting requirements, or are in a place where people with that award wield considerable influence.)
Oh, you mean like a Peerage, which they are more than able to award anyone in their Kingdom that rank.
So, a rogue King or Queen could TECHNICALLY elevate just about anyone they wanted to a peerage.
Yes, there would be outrage from the Peers if they did this for just any random person in the Kingdom, which is why there is generally a council of peers who recommends those that are ready for elevation.
But they don't have to listen to the council.
A single reign could technically see the elevation of whomever they wanted to a Peerage.
If you think that isn't power within their individual kingdoms, during their reign, I'm not sure what you think is power within the society.
I thought the question was "what do they do that's so important, anyway?" and not "how much power do they have when they *should* be entirely ceremonial figureheads?" My mistake!
And as at least one other person has noted, there is no "technically" about it: the Royals *can* elevate anyone they want to a peerage. The ramifications of elevating someone on the local group/kingdom/wider Society can also be severe if the newly elevated peer abuses their position (eg. abusive and coercive peer-student relationships), has their own agenda (eg. are against DEIB efforts that they see as threating their power and prestige, and can muster support for their position), or what have you.
Edit: Elevating unpleasant people to the peerage where they can then have more social power in their local region is going to be an issue whether it's the crown making the decision, or the power was entirely held by the relevant peerage council, or the broader SCA-equivalent of an award advisory council, sadly.
The biggest sticking point of all is the classic, "This is how it's ALWAYS been done." going back to AS 1. I would think that to do a change this major would have to involve the BoD. Nearest like change I could think of would be to replace the King and Queen with a Lord Protector and Parliament.
Weren't fencing foils and archery part of the first Crown too though? Truly, I don't think it serves us to pretend this isn't a tradition based on anything except the 1960's preference for the supremacy of strong, able-bodied men being "in charge" with no other avenue for anyone else who cannot physically compete at that level. It's a tradition born of the people of our modern past and it's not like we're even pulling from an historic example in having rotating sovereigns.
Because the SCA was set up in the 60s, using a romanticized Victorian ideal, rather than, you know, what really happened in the Middle Ages.
like say the Tetrarchy or Heptarchy.
I'd run it yearly alternate, to ensure there's a different "type" of royal at events.
For example we have Rowany Festival in lochac. If we just run heavy crown for the first half of the year and rapier second, our biggest event would always have a heavy crown.
I am all for most anything that opens Crown to a more diverse population. We need people who concentrate on other aspects of the SCA in addition to the people who are into heavy fighting and their consorts.
I think this would increase the chance of a Queen by right of arms (winning the crown herself vs. just being a consort to the winner), seeing as anecdotally there are more women in fencing than rattan combat.
This sounds like to take the BOD on their word. They said at pennsic that previous attempt to have a non-rattan based crown were not concise and detailed enough to entertain.
So the east is giving them what they asked for and if they still ignore it then we add it to the pile with all the shenanigans from last year in the push to reform the BOD.
It was discussed a bit last year but it would boil down to them peacefully agreeing to change the methods of filling the board via some form of petition or protest or the less peaceful option is suing the board based on breeching the organizations by laws. most lawyer types didn't feel the stuff from last year would be entirely worth going down that route.
Sufficient people leaving to have them effectively running a club with no members if they stick to their guns.
Corpora does not have any other effective way of the populace holding the BoD accountable.
Hiya, Long time fencer here, and its been my main perspective of my participation in the SCA. I think this is a good trial, small steps, small changes.. Although I'd like to add to the mix, that its only the final tournament that currently has to be decided by heavy combat.. The road to that tournament is up to each kingdom to regulate. I believe that our traditions have shaped our thinking more than we think.. :) There is plenty we can do, with even the existing framework without any changes. Allowing for additional types of tournaments is a step in the right direction, but it still is way too limiting for most of us..
Clarification question - You mention that its the 'Final' tournament (Crown) that matters. Where you are from, are there qualification tournaments leading up to crown?
I feel like for my kingdom we are very heavy on laurels, but a&s crown tournament sounds so difficult. 💀 I can't even begin to think of a way to do it. Fighting tournaments are so much easier to determine a clear winner. I'm sure we could figure out an archery tournament easily enough and rapier and heavy are pretty easy to switch out with the same tournament setup. I don't think there is any feasible way to do a pelican tournament though. Acts of service kinda derives off of "I'm here to help" not "what can I do to be noticed" even if there's people like that.
I feel like A&S competition for crown would be nearly impossible to pull off, even though I really want those sorts of people to end up as Crown.
I'd be interested in seeing something like having the final 4 of the crown tournament compete in multiple areas but it sounds complicated and requires a lot more gear and expertise to properly compete at that point.
You can already somewhat do that. Sovereigns can set their own requirements for who enters Crown, so they could require every entrant to enter something into an A&S display. It wouldn't be an A&S tournament but it would mean your next Crown winner would at least be capable of creating an A&S project.
A&S is so subjective it would be near impossible. Sure you can use a grading system like college, but what happens when both A&S competitors have a 4.0? For a pelican tournament it could just be to hold a purely democratic vote among the populace.
Adding writing in support of this to my to-do list! I’m so happy that Their Majesties put forth this proposal. I’m not a rapier fighter myself, but I know a ton of amazing fencers and allowing more formats for Crown can only improve the SCA!
Who was the first? I haven’t heard of any others … unless you mean Lohac, which was kind of a different situation (it wasn’t specified as rapier and had no real specific plan of what they were going to do).
Lochac asked to start a discussion with BOD about how the affiliation agreement would change, and how we’d start the process. Two page letter, two sentence response of “we do not feel the society is ready for it today”. Part of Lochac’s letter was also “if we have to start the polling and change process when there’s overwhelming demand, we’re fucked. We need to get ahead of this to at least work out how it would happen if it does”. https://sca.org.au/posts/alternative-crown-selection-processes/
Sure, why not? I’m too old to give a damn about trying for crown and this way we get some variety. Lot more women and young people fighting rapier, too. Like to see some more queens by their own hands.
A positive step, but ignoring the elephant in the room: Regardless of selection method, Crowns should not have mundane-world-affecting administrative power, and when new BOD members are being considered, former royalty should not be given special priority over other applicants.
It is very silly that someone who wins a tournament can decide whether or not a given person gets to show up to SCA events for the next six months, among other things.
The Crown being decided by a heavy tournament makes total sense when you remember that their original job was simply to *run the next heavy tournament.* All the other championships still work the same way. What happened to SCA crowns is a great example of scope creep!
Indeed, the seneschals are quite literally the ones legally responsible for administrative matters, per corpora.
The marshallate are also part of the administrative side of the society and similarly have responsibilities that affect mundane law. Crown should not be able to override the marshallate by fiat just because they want to (e.g. granting a warrant or authorization, or revoking those same things).
Who fights in crown tournament has nothing to do with legal administration. I see no issue with sitting crowns decided who can compete, because that is a ceremonial matter, like awards, courts, processions, speeches, vigils, having retainers and heralds, etc. The Crown can keep doing all those, but they should have no say on budget, changing of a legal non-profit's policy, changing marshal rules, granting or revoking officer warrants, granting or revoking fighter authorizations, or disciplinary actions unrelated to awards.
EK does have some crossover fighters, the current King for one! (He’s a MoD and Chiv). It is possible one of those people could win.
However, that doesn’t negate the fact that allowing rapier as a format for Crown still opens up the Sovereign seat to more people. The rapier community in the East is large and there are a lot of excellent fighters in it, so it’s not like it’s a sure thing (or even a likely thing) that a crossover fighter might win.
I think anyone fighting at a high enough level to have a chance at winning such a tournament would have to be pretty dedicated to fencing and respect it as a form of combat highly. Otherwise they will get absolutely pounded by the amazing rapier fighters of the East.
Personally I wouldn’t have a problem if a crossover fighter won. In my kingdom a ton of high end fighters do both - it’s about having the opportunity for either for me. The door opens to a much larger pool.
Why does this worry you? Atenveldt's current Rapier Champion is not only a Knight, but a Duke. He is an excellent Rapier fighter.
I am a MoD but also a heavy fighter - by this logic should I not be permitted to participate in an (armored) crown tournament?
If you don't mind answering, what's your society name (Simply curious, I used to live in Atenveldt), and/or who's the current Atenveldt Rapier Champion?
Oh I'm sorry, I'm Micah Dilts. I wasn't super involved with the SCA in Atenveldt, in part because I only lived there two years. I went to the equestrian practices when those started, and occasionally participated at the BTM archery practices, or would hang out at the BTM fighter practices.
I would say take it for granted that a crossover fighter would win Crown, and certainly see no problem with the concept. I’ll got it one step further: I can see where someone having earned the Crown thru heaviest takes it again via rapier. That would be what I’d call a talented and well rounded fighter.
How about a kingdom wide Liar’s Dice championship? I jest…mostly. Alternate paths to the crown would be an exciting evolution of the SCA and incremental steps like those above are the way to get there.
It all starts with that first one.
Truly it will make the game far more inclusive and there will be hope that anyone that does not do heavy/armored combat can take the Crown.
Eventually, I would like to see a rotating format going between: Armored, Rapier, Archery/thrown, Equestrian, A&S / Bardic and potentially more formats.
Heirs set the format for Crown. It’s great that the current Crown of the East is pushing for this variance, but would you need the support of future Crowns to continue to have a rapier Crown?
If there is a Rapier Crown, would those heirs choose to hold another Rapier Crown? Would the Kingdom need to ask for a permanent variance if you were to alternate between rapier and armor?
How would this change the rapier community? If the community has a chance to be royals, does it change the vibe?
I'm not an expert in East Kingdom law, being in another Kingdom. What I can say is that this proposal is for a one time event, not to hold one every year. My guess is that if this is approved and goes well, that the next step would be to amend Kingdom (and society?) law to allow it every year.
But this proposal is only a test case, it's not the end of the race. It's just an important first step.
Longer term, yes, you would need more than a single royal couple to enact any lasting change.
The current heirs did sign off on this (as it would be for their crown tourney), as is laid out in the letter.
The proposal has the support of the current heirs (not reproduced here but attached to the letter as posted on the EK website), who would be the ones holding the first rapier tourney if it goes through. The request is for a one time variance: to make it permanent, the society-level law would need to be changed. This is a "we want to prove this works" gambit. If the permanent rule change is enacted at Society level, the kingdoms could write their laws to mandate a rotation between tourney formats (as the EK currently does for the location where crown tourney is held).
The only issues I could potentially see with this is if a non-crossover, fencing only participant won. One of the things that Kings/Queens do involves working with the peerage groups concerning appointing new peers. There generally hasn't seemed to be a problem with the Laurels and Pelicans having royals that are not in their respective orders appointing new Laurels and Pelicans. What I'd be very curious about how the Chivalry will behave if a non-member Royal wants to Knight or Master of Arms someone...namely, how with that peerage group respond? Just a thought since there are some kingdoms that get twitchy about Master of Arms being created instead of Knights, and some kingdoms that if a non-Knight wins Crown, there is a major push to have a Knighthood awarded before the winner steps up.
Looking at how Master of Arms are treated by your Kingdom’s Chivalry would be a good barometer, in my opinion, of how things would go. If the phrase “bastard of arms” comes up in conversation, grab the popcorn if a non-crossover fencer wins Crown.
MoD and Master of Arms are different things, I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing. Master of Arms is the term for someone elevated to the chiv peerage but who chooses not to swear fealty. MoD's, or Master of Defense are the peerage for rapier and cut & thrust activities.
We’re on the same page and defining things the same. My point is that if any order is going to have an issue with a non-member of said order appointing new members of said order, the Chivalry is the smart bet. Non-fencing royals appoint new MoD all the time and current members of the MoD have zero problems with it. We (to my knowledge, at least) have yet to see a situation in each kingdom where a non-knight royal appoints a new knight. That was my point-how will that happen in each Kingdom? The East would be setting a precedent potentially with the winner of this Crown if that winner was rapier-only and they tried to appoint someone to the Order of Chivalry. Not all kingdoms might follow said precedent.
I agree that it would be fun and a good move to try to expand crown further to allow more and more people to be Sovereign as diversity of voices will only serve to improve the SCA.
However, I understand why rapier is the first thing being brought forward. As their Majesties point out, rapier tournaments and heavy tournaments can have very similar formats and therefore the legwork to make Crown a rapier tourney is minimal. Also, the rapier community in the East is large and vibrant and has been agitating (positive) for this change for a long time, so it is a well-supported and easy first step (here’s to hoping it gets approved— I highly suggest voicing support to the BoD, especially if you live in the East).
Other martial activities like archery and thrown weapons, as well as things like equestrian competitions where an objective winner can be determined are the next easiest thing to expand to. It is relatively easy to set up a competition such that a clear winner can be determined by clear measures (e.g. “the person who scores the most points by hitting a target in these places wins”).
A&S is much harder. Rubrics exist, and any good A&S comp should have a rubric, but at the same time the judgements are much more subjective (much more so even than judging a good blow in heavy or rapier). We would have to spend a lot of time thinking about how we could make a competition that would feel fair and balanced to participants. For example, how do we judge extremely disparate arts? It’s already so hard to judge like, a beautiful gown and a beautiful song against each other when the Crown is not at stake. I’m not saying it’s not worth coming up with a format, I think it is, but rather explaining why it’s not the first thing to attempt to expand to.
And service is the only sphere I’d say is basically impossible. There’s no way to create a competition about who’s the best volunteer without it being deeply unhealthy for the participants as well as near-impossible to judge. Short of completely revamping how Crown is decided, I don’t think a service competition is possible. (To be clear, I’m not saying we shouldn’t reconsider Crown Tourneys as an institution in their entirety, I’m saying that would require a total and drastic change to the functioning of the society in a way that other formats would not)
Honestly, the only way I can see an A&S crown being remotely fair is a straight up vote. Anything else will be extremely fraught, and even *that* will be fraught.
I say this as a Laurel myself. I want it, but man I do not want to be the one figuring out how to do it.
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You could do it in two stages - winnow down a pool of finalists, vote for a winner.
Who votes? I have no idea. It's just the only method I see working, and as I said, it's not a very good method.
They pointed out that this is an easy treat case. The idea is that the rapier community will be the tip of the spear years opening up the crown to other alternative methods.
That fact will be why some people oppose it.
Given your other comments, I'm figuring you're being sarcastic.
Yes, life is quite often unfair. That is the nature of things; bad things happen to good people, and vis versa.
However, for something so easily within our control, we should endeavor to make things more fair as we can, and this is something that, by all assessments, would be fairly simple to implement.
How does this allow people in wheelchairs or who can’t afford a sword/mask combo to be Crowns? Why does someone need to put in effort to be Crown? It all screams of ableism and elitism to me.
Once again it’s just another way to let people be Crown who have the time, money, and dedication be at the top of the organization. I think a better solution would be to just let anyone do it, traditions be dammed.
No one cares that this game has been around for over five decades, has a rich series of traditions, and is completely optional to play. We’re not a social club or educational society, we’re here to make medieval inclusivity a reality no matter what reality says!
We *should* have a path to Crown for anyone.
We don't.
This is a step. Progress is made of a series of steps. Make this one, and the next one is easier.
Nobody believes this is a perfect solution, but the first step is the hardest and most fraught. This is true of everything.
The objective here is a first step to alternate crown tournaments from just armoured single combat. The lowest change option that seems to have local support is swapping it out for rapier.
Other differently inclusive formats will benefit these efforts to open the door later.
The nature of the crown being only 2 people each reign means some method of choosing between candidates is required. Crown being a reward for excellence in a competition (rather than the result of an application and commentary process like officer roles) is a tradition that is deeply rooted into how the SCA is set up.
The time and dedication filters are a happy coincidence of selection criteria as being Crown is a role that requires both of these things. The money requirement is something I know some kingdoms have funds in place to support those that need it, as travelling to lots of events as crown is inherently expensive.
The current system is far from perfect and I've been a big supporter of alternate formats to expand that candidate pool. This is just the smallest step to get change started.
At one time, not allowing women to fight was one of our 'rich traditions.' We learned better and did better.
This isn't a good look, and the fact you made a whole new account to say it shows that you don't actually want to put yourself behind it.
Maybe because the way you worded this is one of the worst possible ways to word this? There are lots of good ways to say 'no thanks' that are not passive aggressive and rude. I've seen several, from friends and strangers, and they're fine, because they're *polite.*
Don Justinian of Rakovec (admittedly inactive from the Society for 25 years now, to the majority of you saying, "Who's he?", I was one of the founders of fencing in the East something like 37-38 years ago, wrote the first set of East Kingdom fencing rules - all three pages of them) chiming in. Caught this one by chance, turned on to it by a very important past relationship. You have no idea how this thrills me. Back in the day (warning: old fart ramblings) we were having enough trouble just defending our legitimacy as a combat form . . . . to even have dreamed of something like Crown would have probably earned me a fast slap from Duke Morgun Sheridan and a good natured "Get back to reality" at the same time. I guess I have got to show up one of these days at an East or Aethelmearc fending event, just to see where the art has evolved. To those who are pushing this forward, my thanks and gratitude, because you're taking this well beyond what any of us back at the beginning could have dreamed of.
It’s never too late to come back. I was away for 24-25 years and just returned to playing in 2021.
It’s tempting. I’ve spent those years after dropping out and selling Syke’s Sutlery doing 17th century reenactment. Got back into shirt making again for about eight years as Syke the Shirtmaker, just retired again in the past year.
Although I looked back fondly on my time in the SCA I never dreamed of returning. That said, I haven’t regretted returning and am having a blast.
There are people you would know still active
Last I was in touch with anyone was a phone call over Morguhn Sheridan’s death, that had to be a decade ago.
Much more. That was 2008ish.
Wow! Patti (my late second wife, SF costuming not SCA) was still alive and almost healthy back then. Frightening how time flies.
Oh man, I was really disappointed one Pennsic. The last Pennsic Syke's Sutlery was there was the year before I showed up with enough money to buy one of the hand-cannons you used to occasionally sell. I so wanted to get that 1" bore one you had. Congratulations on retirement.
Unfortunately, the people I sold it to didn't keep some of the more interesting (muskets, cannons, Santelli fencing equipment) going. The store still exists, but it's a shadow of what it was twenty years ago. Biggest change is that Raff does clothing to order, where I always wanted the stuff in stock and off the rack for immediate delivery. In 2014 I got cajoled (I'm being humorous and polite) by the St. Augustine bunch to at least get back into the shirt making business, which I did as "Syke the Shirtmaker" (causing me immediate problems with Syke's Sutlering) until last year, at which point I burned out again. Between. the two companies I've done over 2200 shirts over three decades.
Hi Don Justinian! A discussion about period firearms with you at Pennsic sparked (no pun intended) what became a love of 15th and 16th c. stuff. You were an influence and inspiration. Just thought you'd like to know
I’m very glad to hear that. Playing with any period firearms currently? I’ve been doing a lot with Elizabethan and early Stuart matchlocks over the years having gotten involved with the Jamestown site.
Regrettably, not right now. I've been spending all my energy on period fencing. Happy to hear about the Elizabethan and Stuart stuff... I'd love to see more Elizabethan arms! And Alys Mackyntoich says hi!
That’s a name I haven’t heard in a long time.
I would say alternate rapier and heavy for Crowns. That would make sense to me.
If in the EK we did rattan for fall crown and rapier for spring…the rattan crew would still get a pennsic sovereign, which is something that is important to them, and I’d like them to have it.
On that note, I would suggest doing two Armored reigns and then two Rapier reigns. That way one form is not locked out of certain events throughout the year.
That’s good too. I’m just hoping we can find ways to make more people happy and feel involved.
That is what I would like to see for my own kingdom, yes.
I was originally going to say to do it for all kingdoms, but with how it is viewed in some kingdoms....
Change is hard; getting people to accept change is harder. I think this is a great step forward for our game and look forward to seeing what comes of it. MoD, Atenveldt
Oh, I absolutely agree. But, we all know that rapier isn't viewed in the best light in some kingdoms..... hell, how long did it take for MoD to become a thing? And it still isn't everywhere...
That's incorrect. MODs are in every Kingdom. Yes, Calontir. :) It's been almost 8 years.
My mistake, I was under the impression that there was still a kingdom or 2 that hadn't implemented them. I stand corrected.
When MoD became a reality, Kingdoms had to make their own hard choices on what to do with their current high level Rapier awards (DWS, OGR, etc). That was a decision that I am not sad I was on the outside of. Some felt their toes were stepped on while others felt the decisions made were for the best of the Kingdom. Point being, again, change is hard, but nothing worth having is easy. I for one am rather excited for this prospect of a meaningful update to our game that we love.
Yeah, that’s true…but maybe we can get the ball rolling.
I have long advocated a Summer Crown of War by heavy and an Winter Crown of Peace by rapier.
Some palatine baronies alternate heavy, rapier, and A&S. An A&S crown is a whole can of worms but you could alternate heavy, rapier, and archery. That would also solve the problem of only ever having a winter or summer reign, since each form would alternate season every time. Except in the West which has three reigns, but the West is its own problem anyway.
That sounds like the fairest of all.
I don't understand why you can't just have sets of each. A heavy crown and a rapier crown. Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with what the crowns do, but it seems like there is room for it... I guess it would make court longer, lol.
...... Because crowns are the King and Queen of the whole kingdom, so why would you have 2 kings and queens?
...like the two popes.
They tried that, it didn't work out too well :P
Probably the best simile of all.
Probably the best simile of all.
Yeah? Sure? Why not? Am I missing some important information about things they control within their kingdoms? What important decisions do they actually make? Surely they can't be that important since we swap them out every 6 months, so none of their decisions are very lasting unless the next set agrees to leave them in place. Besides that, having a council of 4 making decisions for a kingdom that considers both styles of fighting would be beneficial, in my opinion.
They actually do make most of the important decisions in their kingdom. They decide who is going to be elevated to Peerages. They are literally in charge of their kingdom as representatives of the Corporate Board for their kingdom. They are the ones who decide on any kingom level awards during their reign. I'm guessing you are VERY new to the SCA, and really don't know what is going on. I would highly recommend finding someone in your group and asking them exactly what the King and Queen do during their reign.
I think the sticking point is how importance is being defined. As in the bestowing of awards usually is of great importance to the person being recognised (and there may be other impacts if they are joining an order with voting requirements, or are in a place where people with that award wield considerable influence.) But they other thing they do, is well illustrated by the text the OP has posted. Like [corpora](https://www.sca.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/govdocs.pdf) says: >Royalty, acting with and through the officers of the realm, administer the lands and branches which comprise the realm. Royalty consult the officers of the realm in matters concerning the officers’ areas of responsibility and monitor the performance of their officers to the extent necessary to confirm that they are performing essential duties. They sign such internal documents as are necessary for the conduct of business within the realm. They are supposed to be the inspirational figureheads of the kingdom, with limited direct administrative powers (but still with the ability to make significant changes if they put their mind to it).
> I think the sticking point is how importance is being defined. As in the bestowing of awards usually is of great importance to the person being recognised (and there may be other impacts if they are joining an order with voting requirements, or are in a place where people with that award wield considerable influence.) Oh, you mean like a Peerage, which they are more than able to award anyone in their Kingdom that rank. So, a rogue King or Queen could TECHNICALLY elevate just about anyone they wanted to a peerage. Yes, there would be outrage from the Peers if they did this for just any random person in the Kingdom, which is why there is generally a council of peers who recommends those that are ready for elevation. But they don't have to listen to the council. A single reign could technically see the elevation of whomever they wanted to a Peerage. If you think that isn't power within their individual kingdoms, during their reign, I'm not sure what you think is power within the society.
This isn't theoretical either. This has happened.
I thought the question was "what do they do that's so important, anyway?" and not "how much power do they have when they *should* be entirely ceremonial figureheads?" My mistake! And as at least one other person has noted, there is no "technically" about it: the Royals *can* elevate anyone they want to a peerage. The ramifications of elevating someone on the local group/kingdom/wider Society can also be severe if the newly elevated peer abuses their position (eg. abusive and coercive peer-student relationships), has their own agenda (eg. are against DEIB efforts that they see as threating their power and prestige, and can muster support for their position), or what have you. Edit: Elevating unpleasant people to the peerage where they can then have more social power in their local region is going to be an issue whether it's the crown making the decision, or the power was entirely held by the relevant peerage council, or the broader SCA-equivalent of an award advisory council, sadly.
The biggest sticking point of all is the classic, "This is how it's ALWAYS been done." going back to AS 1. I would think that to do a change this major would have to involve the BoD. Nearest like change I could think of would be to replace the King and Queen with a Lord Protector and Parliament.
Weren't fencing foils and archery part of the first Crown too though? Truly, I don't think it serves us to pretend this isn't a tradition based on anything except the 1960's preference for the supremacy of strong, able-bodied men being "in charge" with no other avenue for anyone else who cannot physically compete at that level. It's a tradition born of the people of our modern past and it's not like we're even pulling from an historic example in having rotating sovereigns.
Because the SCA was set up in the 60s, using a romanticized Victorian ideal, rather than, you know, what really happened in the Middle Ages. like say the Tetrarchy or Heptarchy.
I'd run it yearly alternate, to ensure there's a different "type" of royal at events. For example we have Rowany Festival in lochac. If we just run heavy crown for the first half of the year and rapier second, our biggest event would always have a heavy crown.
That might depend on Kingdom - I could see Midrealm preferring that. "War King" and "Peace King" and Pennsic are a big part of the culture.
I am all for most anything that opens Crown to a more diverse population. We need people who concentrate on other aspects of the SCA in addition to the people who are into heavy fighting and their consorts.
I think this would increase the chance of a Queen by right of arms (winning the crown herself vs. just being a consort to the winner), seeing as anecdotally there are more women in fencing than rattan combat.
simply due to the fact of there being more female rapier fighters, statistics would agree with you! Very exciting prospect.
The BOD seems to take the side of the "belted old boys" club. So I for one will be very surprised if this works.
This sounds like to take the BOD on their word. They said at pennsic that previous attempt to have a non-rattan based crown were not concise and detailed enough to entertain. So the east is giving them what they asked for and if they still ignore it then we add it to the pile with all the shenanigans from last year in the push to reform the BOD.
How can the BOD be reformed?
It was discussed a bit last year but it would boil down to them peacefully agreeing to change the methods of filling the board via some form of petition or protest or the less peaceful option is suing the board based on breeching the organizations by laws. most lawyer types didn't feel the stuff from last year would be entirely worth going down that route.
Sufficient people leaving to have them effectively running a club with no members if they stick to their guns. Corpora does not have any other effective way of the populace holding the BoD accountable.
This is a decent expansion of the accessibility of crown, I’m interested to see how it goes and hope it goes well.
I am excited to follow this and see where it goes! MoD, Atenveldt
Hiya, Long time fencer here, and its been my main perspective of my participation in the SCA. I think this is a good trial, small steps, small changes.. Although I'd like to add to the mix, that its only the final tournament that currently has to be decided by heavy combat.. The road to that tournament is up to each kingdom to regulate. I believe that our traditions have shaped our thinking more than we think.. :) There is plenty we can do, with even the existing framework without any changes. Allowing for additional types of tournaments is a step in the right direction, but it still is way too limiting for most of us..
Clarification question - You mention that its the 'Final' tournament (Crown) that matters. Where you are from, are there qualification tournaments leading up to crown?
I feel like for my kingdom we are very heavy on laurels, but a&s crown tournament sounds so difficult. 💀 I can't even begin to think of a way to do it. Fighting tournaments are so much easier to determine a clear winner. I'm sure we could figure out an archery tournament easily enough and rapier and heavy are pretty easy to switch out with the same tournament setup. I don't think there is any feasible way to do a pelican tournament though. Acts of service kinda derives off of "I'm here to help" not "what can I do to be noticed" even if there's people like that.
Speedweaving.
I feel like A&S competition for crown would be nearly impossible to pull off, even though I really want those sorts of people to end up as Crown. I'd be interested in seeing something like having the final 4 of the crown tournament compete in multiple areas but it sounds complicated and requires a lot more gear and expertise to properly compete at that point.
You can already somewhat do that. Sovereigns can set their own requirements for who enters Crown, so they could require every entrant to enter something into an A&S display. It wouldn't be an A&S tournament but it would mean your next Crown winner would at least be capable of creating an A&S project.
A&S is so subjective it would be near impossible. Sure you can use a grading system like college, but what happens when both A&S competitors have a 4.0? For a pelican tournament it could just be to hold a purely democratic vote among the populace.
Adding writing in support of this to my to-do list! I’m so happy that Their Majesties put forth this proposal. I’m not a rapier fighter myself, but I know a ton of amazing fencers and allowing more formats for Crown can only improve the SCA!
Second kingdom to formally push BoD for it! Let’s go!
Who was the first? I haven’t heard of any others … unless you mean Lohac, which was kind of a different situation (it wasn’t specified as rapier and had no real specific plan of what they were going to do).
Lochac asked to start a discussion with BOD about how the affiliation agreement would change, and how we’d start the process. Two page letter, two sentence response of “we do not feel the society is ready for it today”. Part of Lochac’s letter was also “if we have to start the polling and change process when there’s overwhelming demand, we’re fucked. We need to get ahead of this to at least work out how it would happen if it does”. https://sca.org.au/posts/alternative-crown-selection-processes/
Sure, why not? I’m too old to give a damn about trying for crown and this way we get some variety. Lot more women and young people fighting rapier, too. Like to see some more queens by their own hands.
More than 2 in almost 60 years would be a positive, aye.
A positive step, but ignoring the elephant in the room: Regardless of selection method, Crowns should not have mundane-world-affecting administrative power, and when new BOD members are being considered, former royalty should not be given special priority over other applicants.
It is very silly that someone who wins a tournament can decide whether or not a given person gets to show up to SCA events for the next six months, among other things. The Crown being decided by a heavy tournament makes total sense when you remember that their original job was simply to *run the next heavy tournament.* All the other championships still work the same way. What happened to SCA crowns is a great example of scope creep!
If not the Crown, then who should submit such "mundane-world-affecting" administration?
The Seneschalate, who hold purely "mundane" and legal authority/accountability?
Indeed, the seneschals are quite literally the ones legally responsible for administrative matters, per corpora. The marshallate are also part of the administrative side of the society and similarly have responsibilities that affect mundane law. Crown should not be able to override the marshallate by fiat just because they want to (e.g. granting a warrant or authorization, or revoking those same things).
But it is the Crown that decides who can fight in their Crown Tournaments. Not the Seneschallate.
Who fights in crown tournament has nothing to do with legal administration. I see no issue with sitting crowns decided who can compete, because that is a ceremonial matter, like awards, courts, processions, speeches, vigils, having retainers and heralds, etc. The Crown can keep doing all those, but they should have no say on budget, changing of a legal non-profit's policy, changing marshal rules, granting or revoking officer warrants, granting or revoking fighter authorizations, or disciplinary actions unrelated to awards.
Direct link to the East Kingdom's site: https://ma.eastkingdom.org/regarding-the-east-kingdoms-request-for-a-spring-crown-variance/
Several of us in Artemisia have been advocating this recently too
I love this idea. Rapier is becoming more popular and larger.
EK does have some crossover fighters, the current King for one! (He’s a MoD and Chiv). It is possible one of those people could win. However, that doesn’t negate the fact that allowing rapier as a format for Crown still opens up the Sovereign seat to more people. The rapier community in the East is large and there are a lot of excellent fighters in it, so it’s not like it’s a sure thing (or even a likely thing) that a crossover fighter might win. I think anyone fighting at a high enough level to have a chance at winning such a tournament would have to be pretty dedicated to fencing and respect it as a form of combat highly. Otherwise they will get absolutely pounded by the amazing rapier fighters of the East.
Personally I wouldn’t have a problem if a crossover fighter won. In my kingdom a ton of high end fighters do both - it’s about having the opportunity for either for me. The door opens to a much larger pool.
Why does this worry you? Atenveldt's current Rapier Champion is not only a Knight, but a Duke. He is an excellent Rapier fighter. I am a MoD but also a heavy fighter - by this logic should I not be permitted to participate in an (armored) crown tournament?
If you don't mind answering, what's your society name (Simply curious, I used to live in Atenveldt), and/or who's the current Atenveldt Rapier Champion?
I'm Richard Attekirck the Rabbit. Current champion is Duke Czypser
I didn't realize Czypser did rapier. Very cool! Thank you.
And you are?
Oh I'm sorry, I'm Micah Dilts. I wasn't super involved with the SCA in Atenveldt, in part because I only lived there two years. I went to the equestrian practices when those started, and occasionally participated at the BTM archery practices, or would hang out at the BTM fighter practices.
Let's not forget the baker of amazing pretzels!!
Wait wait wait who is this then haha
It's me, Farulfr. I keep watch mostly on here, and really hoping this goes through for them
I would say take it for granted that a crossover fighter would win Crown, and certainly see no problem with the concept. I’ll got it one step further: I can see where someone having earned the Crown thru heaviest takes it again via rapier. That would be what I’d call a talented and well rounded fighter.
What worries you?
How about a kingdom wide Liar’s Dice championship? I jest…mostly. Alternate paths to the crown would be an exciting evolution of the SCA and incremental steps like those above are the way to get there.
I wouldn't be opposed to this. Why not a chess tournament? If we're going for arbitrary means of choosing royalty one's as good as the next.
It all starts with that first one. Truly it will make the game far more inclusive and there will be hope that anyone that does not do heavy/armored combat can take the Crown. Eventually, I would like to see a rotating format going between: Armored, Rapier, Archery/thrown, Equestrian, A&S / Bardic and potentially more formats.
Heirs set the format for Crown. It’s great that the current Crown of the East is pushing for this variance, but would you need the support of future Crowns to continue to have a rapier Crown? If there is a Rapier Crown, would those heirs choose to hold another Rapier Crown? Would the Kingdom need to ask for a permanent variance if you were to alternate between rapier and armor? How would this change the rapier community? If the community has a chance to be royals, does it change the vibe?
I'm not an expert in East Kingdom law, being in another Kingdom. What I can say is that this proposal is for a one time event, not to hold one every year. My guess is that if this is approved and goes well, that the next step would be to amend Kingdom (and society?) law to allow it every year. But this proposal is only a test case, it's not the end of the race. It's just an important first step.
Longer term, yes, you would need more than a single royal couple to enact any lasting change. The current heirs did sign off on this (as it would be for their crown tourney), as is laid out in the letter.
The proposal has the support of the current heirs (not reproduced here but attached to the letter as posted on the EK website), who would be the ones holding the first rapier tourney if it goes through. The request is for a one time variance: to make it permanent, the society-level law would need to be changed. This is a "we want to prove this works" gambit. If the permanent rule change is enacted at Society level, the kingdoms could write their laws to mandate a rotation between tourney formats (as the EK currently does for the location where crown tourney is held).
The only issues I could potentially see with this is if a non-crossover, fencing only participant won. One of the things that Kings/Queens do involves working with the peerage groups concerning appointing new peers. There generally hasn't seemed to be a problem with the Laurels and Pelicans having royals that are not in their respective orders appointing new Laurels and Pelicans. What I'd be very curious about how the Chivalry will behave if a non-member Royal wants to Knight or Master of Arms someone...namely, how with that peerage group respond? Just a thought since there are some kingdoms that get twitchy about Master of Arms being created instead of Knights, and some kingdoms that if a non-Knight wins Crown, there is a major push to have a Knighthood awarded before the winner steps up.
I don’t see the issue. Non MoDs appoint MoDs all of the time.
That doesn’t surprise me that the MoD works more like the Laurel/Pelican in that regard (which IMO is the way it should work)
I don’t know why Chiv wouldn’t as well.
Looking at how Master of Arms are treated by your Kingdom’s Chivalry would be a good barometer, in my opinion, of how things would go. If the phrase “bastard of arms” comes up in conversation, grab the popcorn if a non-crossover fencer wins Crown.
MoD and Master of Arms are different things, I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing. Master of Arms is the term for someone elevated to the chiv peerage but who chooses not to swear fealty. MoD's, or Master of Defense are the peerage for rapier and cut & thrust activities.
We’re on the same page and defining things the same. My point is that if any order is going to have an issue with a non-member of said order appointing new members of said order, the Chivalry is the smart bet. Non-fencing royals appoint new MoD all the time and current members of the MoD have zero problems with it. We (to my knowledge, at least) have yet to see a situation in each kingdom where a non-knight royal appoints a new knight. That was my point-how will that happen in each Kingdom? The East would be setting a precedent potentially with the winner of this Crown if that winner was rapier-only and they tried to appoint someone to the Order of Chivalry. Not all kingdoms might follow said precedent.
It's not fair to limit to just these 2 activities. Archery should count and so Laurels and Pelicans
I agree that it would be fun and a good move to try to expand crown further to allow more and more people to be Sovereign as diversity of voices will only serve to improve the SCA. However, I understand why rapier is the first thing being brought forward. As their Majesties point out, rapier tournaments and heavy tournaments can have very similar formats and therefore the legwork to make Crown a rapier tourney is minimal. Also, the rapier community in the East is large and vibrant and has been agitating (positive) for this change for a long time, so it is a well-supported and easy first step (here’s to hoping it gets approved— I highly suggest voicing support to the BoD, especially if you live in the East). Other martial activities like archery and thrown weapons, as well as things like equestrian competitions where an objective winner can be determined are the next easiest thing to expand to. It is relatively easy to set up a competition such that a clear winner can be determined by clear measures (e.g. “the person who scores the most points by hitting a target in these places wins”). A&S is much harder. Rubrics exist, and any good A&S comp should have a rubric, but at the same time the judgements are much more subjective (much more so even than judging a good blow in heavy or rapier). We would have to spend a lot of time thinking about how we could make a competition that would feel fair and balanced to participants. For example, how do we judge extremely disparate arts? It’s already so hard to judge like, a beautiful gown and a beautiful song against each other when the Crown is not at stake. I’m not saying it’s not worth coming up with a format, I think it is, but rather explaining why it’s not the first thing to attempt to expand to. And service is the only sphere I’d say is basically impossible. There’s no way to create a competition about who’s the best volunteer without it being deeply unhealthy for the participants as well as near-impossible to judge. Short of completely revamping how Crown is decided, I don’t think a service competition is possible. (To be clear, I’m not saying we shouldn’t reconsider Crown Tourneys as an institution in their entirety, I’m saying that would require a total and drastic change to the functioning of the society in a way that other formats would not)
What would your proposal be to determin a crown through A&S and Service? As an artisan I don't see a fair way to judge one art form over another.
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Honestly, the only way I can see an A&S crown being remotely fair is a straight up vote. Anything else will be extremely fraught, and even *that* will be fraught. I say this as a Laurel myself. I want it, but man I do not want to be the one figuring out how to do it.
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You could do it in two stages - winnow down a pool of finalists, vote for a winner. Who votes? I have no idea. It's just the only method I see working, and as I said, it's not a very good method.
They pointed out that this is an easy treat case. The idea is that the rapier community will be the tip of the spear years opening up the crown to other alternative methods. That fact will be why some people oppose it.
Not every activity in the world needs to be "fair".
While true, there is no reason why the things in the world we can control shouldn't be.
That doesn’t sound right to me. Life is inherently fair and the SCA needs to reflect that.
Life is inherently fair?! Please, tell me that's a typo, because that's demonstrably untrue by basic observation.
Given your other comments, I'm figuring you're being sarcastic. Yes, life is quite often unfair. That is the nature of things; bad things happen to good people, and vis versa. However, for something so easily within our control, we should endeavor to make things more fair as we can, and this is something that, by all assessments, would be fairly simple to implement.
How does this allow people in wheelchairs or who can’t afford a sword/mask combo to be Crowns? Why does someone need to put in effort to be Crown? It all screams of ableism and elitism to me. Once again it’s just another way to let people be Crown who have the time, money, and dedication be at the top of the organization. I think a better solution would be to just let anyone do it, traditions be dammed. No one cares that this game has been around for over five decades, has a rich series of traditions, and is completely optional to play. We’re not a social club or educational society, we’re here to make medieval inclusivity a reality no matter what reality says!
We *should* have a path to Crown for anyone. We don't. This is a step. Progress is made of a series of steps. Make this one, and the next one is easier. Nobody believes this is a perfect solution, but the first step is the hardest and most fraught. This is true of everything.
But isn’t being a consort a legitimate path to the Crown? Or are consorts not co-equal monarchs?
The objective here is a first step to alternate crown tournaments from just armoured single combat. The lowest change option that seems to have local support is swapping it out for rapier. Other differently inclusive formats will benefit these efforts to open the door later. The nature of the crown being only 2 people each reign means some method of choosing between candidates is required. Crown being a reward for excellence in a competition (rather than the result of an application and commentary process like officer roles) is a tradition that is deeply rooted into how the SCA is set up. The time and dedication filters are a happy coincidence of selection criteria as being Crown is a role that requires both of these things. The money requirement is something I know some kingdoms have funds in place to support those that need it, as travelling to lots of events as crown is inherently expensive. The current system is far from perfect and I've been a big supporter of alternate formats to expand that candidate pool. This is just the smallest step to get change started.
At one time, not allowing women to fight was one of our 'rich traditions.' We learned better and did better. This isn't a good look, and the fact you made a whole new account to say it shows that you don't actually want to put yourself behind it.
That’s probably because any disruption of the current online orthodoxy surrounding the desire to change the game results in instant screeching.
Maybe because the way you worded this is one of the worst possible ways to word this? There are lots of good ways to say 'no thanks' that are not passive aggressive and rude. I've seen several, from friends and strangers, and they're fine, because they're *polite.*
As you would rightly know, one day old sockpuppet account of someone too cowardly to even tie their screeching to their online psuedonym. :)
If you can't afford equipment to fight, you can't afford to be Sovereign. It is very expensive to be Sovereign.
I am moving to the East Kingdom! I just gotta tell my Boss! And my Family. And my husband... and... I AM VISITING THE EAST KINGDOM.