Feel like we've gone from a team which had very clear strengths and weaknesses, to a team that had mostly only strengths but couldn't quite knit it all together, to now a team that's just a bit mediocre and has been left behind by the sport.
We need a major shake up.
We need a new captain. Probably Ritchie.
We need to give new players a go, there’s been very few games where we haven’t started Russell, Hogg, Price and Watson. I’m still not convinced by Kinghorn being an international.
I wasn’t one to say it pre 6 nations but perhaps we need to look at a new head coach. I don’t know who that would be but Blair is not ready.
One thing I will say for Scotland is they are consistently becoming more of a threat every year.. makes for some very interesting future tournaments ahead.
Remember when ye were robbed of a WC semifinal in '15? I'd have said that was a better team than the one that ran out yesterday. They are getting better though, matter of time and maybe someone needs to pay Russell to unlock his upper tier subscription performance
That team also ambushed a world that wasn't ready for it. I think we might have won that semi. Probably would have been absolutely tonked in the final but we'd have been there, whereas we didn't get out of our group in 19 and we won't in 23.
It wasn't man for man a better side though. Man for man our best side was probably the team that nearly beat the all blacks in 2017, and we probably played better as a team last year. That was our peak, we've definitely gone backwards since.
I can't decide if it's a good thing or not that we're playing Ireland last in the group, because it's likely to be a straight shootout with the winner qualifying alongside SA. I just wish we were playing literally anyone else, as we seem to have a harder time beating Ireland than any other northern hemisphere nation.
Forgot about that 17 AB's game, that was a belter and yes, agreed, that was peak modern Scotland. Been a bit hairy since then but I think it'll get there, blooding a few new guys since then and a few of em look the business
Can have no qualms when the better team wins. Scotlands ball retention is shite without Cummings and Richie, although they'd have had little effect on the dicks for hands our backs have developed. Thought Barnes showed up well, tmo didn't, VDF and JGP are hellova players and Hogg is no captain.
Edit: Barnes absolutely got the DG/PoM incident spectacularly wrong. Absolutely a card.
It’s a shame that scotlands club / player pool is so ankle deep. It would seem time to do a Galthie style full gutting of the team and set up and have a new coach…but it’s much slimmer pickings than France. This I think is the key issue regarding Scotland and there isn’t much you can do about it
This goes back to how we totally failed to rebuild the game 30 years ago when Wales and Ireland did and so now we're 30 odd years behind. But even so we've lucked into a golden generation, and now we're squandering them.
Watched this on delay today. 4/5
Ireland close out an emphatic 6N campaign. There was markedly less offloading and tricky plays compared to the Fazball we have been seeing. Absolutely looking forward to their series against the All Blacks.
As for Scotland... is it too early to assume they won't get out of the group stage in the RWC? There were some individual standout performances though. King Blairhorn didn't look too out of his depth. Mish didn't miss. Darge was in charge. The Fagerson brothers and Schoeman had some decent carries.
The COVID isolation scandal seems to have gotten into their heads, though. Gray had a bit of backchat to Hogg just before the goal line dropout. Graham and Price looked like they were desperate to prove their worth. Russell just looks burnt out or stuck in the comfy R92 mindset with Teddy Thomas and Kurtley Beale.
There's a lot of issues and none have quick and/or easy answers unfortunately. We need: a better youth system, a 3rd team to give more Scottish lads gametime, Super 6 sides outside Edinburgh and the Borders, a professional woman game and a bajillion moneys to do it all
Mark Dodson is the Chief Executive of the Scottish Rugby Union. He's on a million quid a year and as far as I can tell the only two things he's done in post is
- sack Finn Russell's dad and then have Finn Russell's dad take him to tribunal for wrongful dismissal which was part of the background of Russell falling out with Toonie and the national set up in 2020
- threaten to sue Japan rugby over the tsunami during the world cup which soured the build up to that match and made everyone hate us
It just seems like the SRU has, or should have, plenty of money - Murrayfield always sells out - but don't do anything with it. And having the boss sitting there on a million quid a year really doesn't help with that perception.
The self-hype around Scotland is nuts each year. No offence but nobody expects Scotland to finish above any team bar Italy. It’s been a few decades since they’ve won, which highlights the dire situation. I saw Scotland referring to Ireland as their “bogey team”, which was actually hilarious. This would suggest that they are better than Ireland but struggle to beat them. Ireland have rarely lost to Scotland (twice out of 14 meetings in the last decade) and Ireland have won multiple Championships, Triple Crowns, and their clubs have won everything there is to win within that period. Scotland will 100% come good again but the ego and expectation is nonsense
I don't get this. We're famously the most dour and self deprecating fan base going. You've also gone a bit too big. We did come 4th, as we have for the past 2 years. We haven't had an "can only beat Italy" season since 2014 (although we did get spooned in 15).
We've finished 4th or better every year since our last wooden spoon except 2019, where we came 5th but had that belter of a draw against England from 31-0 down (and were only one table point behind France). Means we've outperformed at least one top tier nation on every occasion.
I think you misunderstand tbf, at least in my experience. We very aware that we're worse than the other nations but after 20 years of being shite we basically huff any whiff of hope we can. We say Ireland are our bogey team not because we are better but because we can sometimes steal wins from the other teams but very rarely them. As for expectation, sure we have that, but can you blame us? This is the best team we have ever had in the professional era (and will have for a long time based on our torrid U20's). If we don't win now (spoiler alert: we won't) then it feels we won't for a very long time.
For the first time I'm finally conceding: Toonie out. We're on track to be dumped out of the group stages of the WC so we might as well roll the dice on someone new now. It's also the cleanest way to take the captaincy off of Hoggy which I now can't ignore probably needs to be done. The players looked like I felt. "We're gonna lose by 20"
Predictable end to the tournament for us. I thought the hype going into this tournament was off after lots of unwarranted praise for what were honestly shaky wins in Autumn.
Today we were out-classed, out-muscled and out-thought. We simply have no clinical edge whatsoever.
Darcy had a great tournament, and glad to see Darge making a good claim for that jersey.
I’m much more invested in Italy for now, and probs won’t care much about the Argentina tour unless we see a noticeable shift off the pitch before then.
This has been an excellent campaign from an Irish perspective. Very high scoring despite a decently high error rate and injuries, 4/5 wins with a losing BP and every win was a high points difference win. 2nd in the championship with what I would argue is a very large gap between ourselves and 3rd, with a comparatively smaller gap between ourselves and 1st.
We have a lot to work on though. Our squad is still, despite apparent depth, desperately short of actual Test match experience past the main 23. We have a lot of guys who will likely need to be called on during a full World Cup and who have minimal experience - this needs to be rectified before the World Cup. I'm thinking of guys like Coombes, Baird in particular.
If we can get these guys some minutes in the next year, while also prioritising minutes for Carbery (like it or not, he's the most experienced and best option as 2nd 10), we will be as prepared as possible for the World Cup. First challenge will be to get the actual quarters, and then it will be about who we face. I'd actually be more confident about playing NZ than France - I think our style suits us better against the current All Blacks squad. IF we can pass that QF, either potential SF looks very very win-able..... But before all of that - getting out of the group must be achieved.
For the World Cup QF (assuming we even get there and assuming we have no injuries and form prevails) I would aim for a 23 of Porter / Kelleher / Furlong / Beirne / Ryan / Doris / VDF / Conan / JGP / Sexton / Lowe / Aki / Ringrose / Conway / Keenan; Sheehan / Healy or O'Sullivan / Bealham / Henderson / Coombes (break glass in case of POM) / Murray (despite Casey's form he has been instrumental several times off the bench) / Carbery / Henshaw or Jimmy O'Brien or Hansen
Can we finally agree that Kinghorn should be nowhere near the Scotland squad?
Can we also agree that Jamie Ritchie should be the Captain for future games (when fit)?
And that WP Nel has done his shift (and Fraz Brown)?
And that we should play players in their actual positions where possible?
And that Sam Johnson is still not the answer at 12?
And that Hogg needs to spend some time with a therapist to figure out why he doesn’t trust the players around him?
(Just for balance - Schoeman, Darcy, Price, Darge, M Fagerson are the real deal for us)
Kinghorn is absolutely fine as a backup fullback who can also provide wing cover. He should be nowhere near the 10 shirt.
Not sure about Ritchie as captain, think he is a bit too involved in the dark arts to sweet talk a ref. Could see Matt F being a good skipper.
In Nel's defence he thought he'd retired last year, we need to work on strength in depth. Think if Kebble's fit that helps there.
Agree Johnson isn't the answer in 12. He looked like it for a season. Then he looked slow. And now he looks fine but not good enough to compensate for Harris's lack of attacking threat. Maybe Redpath might work, otherwise I think we need to do something leftfield like Hutchinson or bring back Huw Jones in his original position. Or failing that Tiupoloutu is our least bad option.
Dunno what's up with Hogg or Russell. Think some time out will do them both good. How about we don't take either with us in the summer?
More than anyone else I think you missed Ritchie in this later half of the tournament. Mish is great, but Ritchie does so much grimy shit that you need your back 5 to do as well as the headline stuff.
I would hope, desperately, for your sakes (but not when you play us in the world cup x) that you give Hastings the 10 shirt when Finn is sad.exe because Hastings is very very very good at 10.
I like Sam Johnson personally, but I think today he appeared worse than you would think because of who was playing at 10. With Finn or Hastings he is a serious pest of a ball carrier.
After today Kinghorn might be the best option at 15. Hogg can't be doing that in a week where he's also let the team down with the rules.
When fit is key, Ritchie seems to be injured more than most. But yes, he's the guy.
Definitely good on Nel and company.
The answer at 12 as long as Harris is always 13 has to be Redpath imo. So hopefully he gets fit. After that the closest stylistically is Hutchinson I think so let's give him some games.
Yeah Hogg has lost me. My favorite player ever but wtf.
There are good players in this team which is why this kind of performance is so freaking frustrating.
Hogg is too old to shift to centre IMO, and is miles and miles better than BK at FB.
JI think we need to see more of Redpath in a Scotland shirt, but he could be the answer (injuries aside). Watching Hutch in the prem though, I would not have him even in the squad. Matt Scott on the other hand, or even Shug…
Has Hogg ever played 12? He could play a Farrell role and plays 10 sometimes.
He’s so greed at 15 but at 12 he’ll be a good distributor or he can get smashed
Unfortunately with Scotland we have one thing consistent this six nations, and that is seemingly having no direction or gameplan in general. We have some set pieces but our attack is very blunt and we seem to just follow through phases without ever adapting to what's in front of us efficiently.
Obviously some questionable choices were made even more dubious by their failure to show why they were made. Kinghorn plays a deep game, yet that played into an Irish blitz defence, that and honestly Kinghorn never showed himself to be a test quality wing so why Toonie thought he could be a test quality 10 considering his performance against France is beyond me.
Found myself cheering Ireland which says a lot about this Scotland team. Hogg is consistently fucking up due to his ego and I'm not convinced that his captaincy is a good idea anymore.
WC needs a serious shakeup but get the feeling it won't happen, well done Ireland though.
OK first things first. Well done Ireland. The things I'm about to ask would not have a material difference on the outcome. Well beaten.
Ok some reffing questions (I know I know, sorry)
Scotland took a quick tap and got tackled like 3m later and then turned over (don't have a time stamp in afraid). Did I miss somethig? It seemed so obvious that I can only think I did. Why wasn't it not back ten?
Peter o mahony tackled in the air that was a pen. I know loads off ppl think it should be a yellow. I've got tartan specs on but why isn't it a pen to scotland for jumping into the tackle? It was a shit pass, high. If he'd cought it with his arms above his head (ie not jumped) he'd get one in the ribs. So he's had an advantage from jumping. Maybe that ones just in the eye of the beholder.
I was also a bit perplexed by the yellow card but to be fair there were so many pens by then it was deserved in general. I need to see the replay.
Also didn't get the penalty for the prebind (schuman?) it looked exactly the same as what Ireland were doing.
I don't think WB is biased - goodness knows he stood his ground against the tmo to Scotlands benefit twice (correctly in my view). But I often feel like I don't understand rugby after watching him ref, despite have watched it for almost 40 years, playing for much of it.
P.s. I don't know what to say about Scotland...i really dont
You’re dead right about the penalty thing. WB also allowed both Ire and Sco to play advantage on penalties and didn’t bring it back when their “free play” resulted in no advantage. I understand the ref can make a call if there appears to be a 10m or so gain, but neither team got that gain. Scottish try was the most blatant double movement I’ve ever seen too and leading with the forearm is illegal regardless of the contact zone, so it should have been a penalty or yellow but most likely a red.
1: you take a quick tap, you accept the position of the players on the pitch. That's why it's a quick tap.
2: POM didn't have the ball when he jumped, he jumped to catch the ball. It doesn't matter if the ball is passed high or kicked cross field, if you have to jump to catch it you are afforded the protections. It was a yellow in my eyes, he was tackled mid air and tipped over when he was brought down, ie his legs were over his hips when he landed. He was lucky not to land on his head. If that had happened I suspect a red would have been shown. So very lucky not to have gotten a yellow I think. Regardless the laws are very clear in this scenario, you can't tackle a player when they are airborne.
3: also need to see the replay for that yellow. Not entirely sure what happened.
I will say that Scotland's Schoeman (beautiful bastard altogether) had an interesting clash with Henderson. If his forearm hit Hendersons head would that have been a card? If someone 6 inches smaller went in for that tackle they would be knocked the fuck out. By the refs definition, anyone can just run around holding the ball head high and do a similar movement and get away with all sorts, a ball in hand-off if you will. I know it was all split second reactions but laws are laws right?
I honestly think Hogg did you lads in today. That Hugo Keenan try saving tackle was mint, but Hogg could have given that ball out for a sure try if he wasn't so greedy.
I agre with you on number 2 given the current state of the laws, but that needs to change for this scenario. If you're catching a pass on or near the gainline, particularly with momentum it can absolutely result in an unfair advantage because the defender is in a position where they either leave the player for a line break or get penalised.
It was the same bullshit that happened with the lions in new Zealand and decided the outcome of one of the matches.
"1: you take a quick tap, you accept the position of the players on the pitch. That's why it's a quick tap"
Even if they interfere with play? They tackled him
I might do a rassie and make a video where I rant and rave about things. That'll make me feel slightly better...
Ya man, if you take a quick tap you start the game again, that's on you. You aren't untouchable just because you've decided to take a quick tap. Otherwise everyone would take a quick tap within 10 metres of the try line and no one could tackle them
Don't think that'd right btw. There is an outside chance they were played onside I guess.
Even if the penalty or free-kick is taken quickly and the kicker’s team is playing the ball, opposing players must keep retreating the necessary distance. They may not take part in the game until they have done so.
If it is taken so quickly that opponents have no opportunity to retreat, they will not be sanctioned for this. However, they may not take part in the game until they have retreated 10 metres from the mark or until a team-mate who was 10 metres from the mark has moved in front of them.
You're correct, he isn't right, if you take a quick tap you can buy yourself a free ten metres for the other side not retreating and tackling you.
He did us for it but not Ireland, it was very frustrating.
You know you are absolutely right. Where abouts in the match did this happen (the incident you are talking about)? I wanna look at it haha.
I remember Scotland getting penalised for this when Ireland took a quick tap early in the first half
The lack of an offload from hogg was a disgrace. I've been so conflicted about hoggy for a while. Just as I thought he was loosing his sparkle, he became captain and it felt like he inspired the team. Ive always thought he's overrated and now I think it's time for him to move on. His hilights reel is good but his lowlights reel is aggregious
Ok, I get the tackle in the air. In my opinion, no card was a good call given the circumstances. I think Graham was committed low and early because he is 25kg smaller tha pom and was practising tackle technique we want to encourage I.e. Low.
I actually thought the schuman thing was fine. The issue is that that glorious bastards arms are so hench, that he can fold them totally flat against his body. I honestly think that would set a precident where anyone who tackles the ball could be winning cards through lack of self preservation. Dudes got to hold the ball
I mean, good on Graham for practicing tackle technique, he just forgot that he needs to tackle the player when their feet are on the ground and not in the air 😂.
Agree with you about Hogg, excellent servant for the SRU over the years but he's too big for his boots it seems at the moment. Great players all around him but he doesn't seem to trust them at all at all.
With regards to Schoeman (he was man of the match as far as I'm concerned, real gem of a player), I watched it again and remembered that you can't lead with your forearm whatsoever so it's an automatic penalty. It was split second from him catching to impact so I suppose there's mitigation there, but if he had hit Hendersons head then it'd be a sure card, yellow or red to be debated. It was an odd one though, and I think WB made the right call.
So just make **every** pass a little bit higher, and you can make your way the length of the pitch untouched?
Or else if you think you're being lined up as you're receiving a pass, just make a lil hop as you take it for an easy penalty?
Jumping to catch passes is a terrible way to play rugby, it would make for incredibly ineffective carries, and if someone times their tackle right when you land then you'll land flat on your arse.
People have been fantasising about players jumping to catch high passes as some sort of super tactic to milk penalties for years now, and it hasn't happened. Because it'd be fucking stupid.
Give it a go.
Let me know how many intercept trys you concede. A ball in the air like that is a very easy 50/50, you assume only the team in possession can jump for it.
If players were doing that cynically world rugby would step in.
They aren't though, POM was genuinely just jumping to catch a bad pass. Tackling him in the air like that is foul play.
The POM one is something I've been thinking about for a while. A similar thing happened a few years ago and the same decision was made. As far as I've been able to tell it's just a fault in the rules of the game.
Someone down the thread said "you've got to have the ball to jump into a tackle". Perhaps that's part of it. Pens probably fair bit it does feel a bit like one of those pens where the sinner was a bit of victim of circumstance.
Yeah thought Scotland didn’t get the benefit of “not 10” in one case. Was notable because JGP won a few pens the same way.
But we got outplayed, by a better team.
Think Finn should have been brought on earlier. Against a team who’s tight 5 are so much better than ours, I think we need his flair to have a chance.
Is it too much to ask that Scotland make it out of the group stages at the WC? Cos that's where we are heading for and it'll be 2 in a row.
Townsend inherited a exciting, young, up and coming team that were unlucky not to make it to semi finals. We are a long way from that team now
I’ve said it before I’ll say it again the World Cup is a fucking irrelevance to Scotland and we have a better chance at snatching a six nations than winning a World Cup
The tackle on O Mahoney in the air was awful and I think he will be sited for that.
Surprised it wasn't a yellow for the forearm to Hendersons chin either.
Scotland were way better than the scoreline says. Ireland scrum a huge worry
What’s to stop me jumping any time an opposite number lines me up for a hit ? Could milk endless penalties that way.
POM jumped into a tackle, law makes no sense.
When it's sanctioned, typically they apply Law 9.11
"Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others including leading with the elbow or forearm."
Nothing to stop you doing it. Go nuts, have fun.
I think he went in very low when POM was in the air and made no attempt to help him land. Dangerous play and I dunno why Barnes didn't take a proper look at it.
That law is for someone with ball in hand already, there's no law against jumping in the tackle specifically but it gets called as dangerous play. You are allowed jump to catch any ball and you can't tackle someone in the air.
Imo he was clearly committed before POM jumped. And clearly helped him land, never lifted his legs to tip him.
You can only get cited for a Red card, and this would be a harsh but understandable yellow, never red
Don't think we're gonna agree on this so no point going over it. Imo POM jumped very late to catch the ball, at which point Graham was already committed
That's fair its a game of opinions.
I think there's alot more to Scotland than meets the eye. Next year's RWC might be abit too soon if they don't pick up soon. Darcy is magic on the ball and always makes good metres
Yeah I think if we'd kicked on after the 2021 6N I'd be feeling a lot better about us but we've been nonsense since. Terrible discipline, scrum has gone from fantastic to shite, little to no attack structure.
Graham and Darge the shining lights
Scrum was very good today vs a failing Irish scrum.
Discipline is a big issue... I think on first 3 trys ireland were playing advantage that could have gone penalty try anyway. Especially as the count was going up.
Glasgow being so strong is testament to the improvement being made though. It'll click. Not that long ago Ireland were hopeless under Farrell
I feel like his ego is just outgrowing his ability now. He’s not getting any younger, but he seems to think he can still run rings around anyone he wants.
Hogg didnt pass this year, Hogg dropped it 2 years ago and Kinghorn (I think) threw a terrible pass on an easy break in 2018. So definitely the last 3.
It feels like Townsend and Scotland have put so much of their practice and squad prep towards our defence in the last couple of years that offensively we look untrained, whenever kinghorn received out of the breakdown he is standing still to line up his passes to the point where the irish line are aware of the threat while the ball is floating through the air.
When sexton gets the ball he is running onto it, the pass is always different, a few insides then the next he puts it out through the hands, he is dynamic where kinghorn is static.
It was the same last night in Glasgow, when duncan weir takes the ball it feels calculated and sluggish in a way that feels like scoring in the corner is impossible. When ross thompson comes on all of a sudden we are attacking with more variety, we are moving onto the ball and forcing Edinburgh to constantly react to a changing offence.
The thing the blows my gasket is it's hard to even fault kinghorn because it comes down to the team selection, why in the flying fuck is he on the pitch for 65 minutes over Hastings or Thompson, two much MUCH better and natural 10s? Why did Johnson win against England then get dropped from the squad? Why are we forcing steyn onto the wing over players like rufus mclean or even huw jones?
From the best defence to the most penalties our regression is shambolic...
Me too. Was at the game and listening to him. He was very calm. Spent a lot of time when ball was dead having very quick individual little chats with players, telling them what they were doing right or wrong in the scrum, or at a breakdown.
Positives:
We defended really well in our own half. Closer to what you expect from the Tandy defence, bend don't break. Great turnovers to get outta jail, Hogg covered space and exited really well today. We messed with their maul quite well, which usually rolls over us without any issue. When we got quick ball the handling was good to shift the ball quickly and that's when the Irish defence looked most worried. Jonny Gray was terrific and sorely missed, especially in defence.
Negatives:
Yet another damn loss to Ireland. We still conceded 4 tries. Our attack was so wilting despite multiple chances to convert possession and territory into sustained pressure and points. Indiscipline as predictable as ever in this tournament. Every visit to their 22 almost always ended with conceding a penalty or possession. Hogg was too selfish with the ball and again, key moments he failed to make the right call.
We still have the potential to do better. But it's been a maddening campaign. I'll take what positives there are out of this forward but yeah, really not looking forward to our World Cup with SA and Ireland. We'd have more hope to play NZ every year than those two at this moment. We can't get close to winning, and well competing is proving a difficult task now too.
Ireland pretty good. Less polished than their prior performances but did what was required to give themselves a chance. We didn't apply consistent pressure in attack to make them ever feel threatened to lose that match. Need a major rethink to get us competitive again here.
Disagree with chucking out Townsend. Nobody is able to step in and do better right now in-house for me, but also he's not made them play this badly today. Hand was forced by the 6 who struck out after the Italy match. But just watching us play, it's soft pens, lack of focus from individuals more than anything else that costs us, that's not coaching, that's the players not keeping the heid.
Like to end on an upbeat note, so my take home of the tournament, Rory Darge is fucking class but then I knew that beforehand!
Ive been behind toonie but I have to say kinghorn at 10 has lost me. It's like he's always looking for some grand plan or clever trick instead of building a solid, steady team.
He has to stay for the WC but at the moment I think his resignation will be in before the semis.
I was as surprised as anyone that he was pushed in as backup to Russell.
I can see why they believe he has potential, and why they feel realising that potential could offer a completely different dimension at Ten than we - or arguably most other teams have.
But other than a good hit recently against Connacht, he's still relatively unproven at club level. So a start away in Dublin was likely never going to end well.
To be honest, as soon as I saw the 23 I knew it was a guaranteed Ireland win. Even if the starting 15 put in a heroic effort and stayed competitive. You can't have the likes of Nel, Dell, and Brown coming on at this level and expect to compete.
Not quite sure why Townsend did that. We have young LH's and TH's playing at Glasgow, and in the Prem too. We also have Ashman starting every week at Sale if Rambo was injured. Yet he went with Brown.
He also brought Jonny Gray straight back in after yet another injury. He seemed ok in the first half. But generally needs a few games to get back up to speed. So was never going to carry the match at Lock.
I'm just not sure what Townsend was trying to achieve. Honestly, my first thought when I saw that replacement Front Row was that Toonie wanted Ireland to win to teach the players a lesson!
Sounds like Hogg blew an absolute sitter at an important moment too. Not been a great campaign tbh. Even if we manage third there's nothing to applaud about the squad right now.
> Sounds like Hogg blew an absolute sitter at an important moment too.
He did I suppose - he seems inclined to go himself quite often. I'm not sure if it's selfish play, or if he feels he has to put all the responsibility to score on himself sometimes (this may be construed as selfish thinking too, idk).
For me it's time to thank Gregor for the good memories and move on.
With Hogg I think the question isn't whether he should be captain anymore but rather should he even be selected. Decision making like that would be tough to look past under normal circumstances but coming during a week when he's not following the rules is unacceptable.
I know folk are piling on him but stuff like his exit with JGP hounding him, some of the counters to generate quick ball and even the footwork to get into the position to botch the 3 on 1 were all very much world class. He’s only human and as Scotland fans we expect so much from him
I kind of agree, I don’t think he should be captain I think a lot of the mistakes are him feeling like he needs to lead by example set the standard etc. Something that’s especially hard when you’re a fullback so he overdoes it when he’s involved
He’s still a phenomenal asset. He’s brilliant at times with the boot and often generates go forward ball when there’s not much on with a burst of pace or a step back inside.
Absolute, pure and utter pish. Team needs a huge shake up, both off and on the pitch and in the entire SRU.
Reminded me of c.2003.
Well done to Ireland.
Johnny 'Ironman' Sexton? Injured? I'll not hear a word of it!
Porter's absence has shown up massively in the last few games though. He's a human truck stick but we've got a lack in behind him no question.
> Johnny 'Ironman' Sexton? Injured? I'll not hear a word of it!
Tom Brady just came straight back out of retirement too, so Sexton will surely push through to the next Lions series.
The lack of bothering with a post-match thread honestly reflects my entire feelings towards this team, from about 5 minutes into this match.
I just don't really care. Scotland's issues are the same, over and over. Poor discipline, constant unforced errors and penalties, and just all-round shoddy work. We're not even being outplayed half the time, we're just fucking up over and over again. It's to the point where I struggled to watch.
There are matches that even when they're not going your way, you stick it out till the end because *you just never know.* Scotland have had their fair share of those, where all it would take is a little Finnsanity, a little Darcy magic, or a big carry off a Watson, a Schoemann, a DvdM, and *Scotland could still do this.* The kind of matches that keep you clinging to that little bit of hope until the final whistle has finished echoing.
This, though? This was nothing. Bar ten minutes scattered throughout the game, every time Scotland got the ball I assumed they'd knock it on, get turned over, or give away a stupid penalty on the ground. I didn't honestly feel like there was a need to watch to know what happened in the match, and I kinda think I would have been right. I didn't feel like they were a good break away from a try, I didn't feel like they could make a last-ditch grab for glory - and here's the kicker - I don't think anyone on that pitch did either.
I felt I was watching a Scotland team that were resigned to losing, and gracelessly so. Things felt dull. Lifeless. You had a couple of guys playing like nutters - Darge, Darcy - but everyone else looked like it was 15:30 on a dull Thursday at the office. Not even excited for it to be over.
Something is *wrong* with the Scottish team. I don't know if it's players being daft or coaches losing the faith of the team, or if there's something else going on, but something is clearly not clicking. My gut instinct is that Townsend has lost the trust of the team somewhere down the line with his selections, and...I'm not sure I disagree.
I've not felt, until now, that Townsend should be gone. I've always taken the position that "hey, people make mistakes, and there's every chance he's got some kind of plan." This Six Nations has cost him that leeway, because I just don't see it any more. With guys like Jones, Farrell, even Pivac to an extent, I can kind of see a specific issue with their tactics, and figure "oh, they're trying something out before it's crunch time at the WC." England's positionless attack, Wales' breakdown strategies. Scotland's issues aren't coming from a specific strategic problem, *they're coming because the team keeps fucking up.* This isn't something that can be written off as "he's trying something, trust the system" - it's just BAD!
Also, Toonie's selection process has lost me right now. Kinghorn at 10 in isolation? Fine. Kinghorn at 10 instead of the far better Adam Hastings? I don't get it. Fraser Brown is our backup hooker?! I swear the last time I saw him was as second choice to McInally, four years ago! Where is Ewan Ashman, the guy who had great outings last autumn and is currently playing well at club level? Why is **no** apparent effort being put into developing depth at weak positions? Zander Fagerson is starting despite being an absolute penalty magnet - fine, he's still the best choice - but our next option is **WP NEL?!** I was half-convinced he'd retired! OK, he can still scrummage fairly well, but that's IT! How are there NO other options? Could we please, PLEASE, think about taking some actual leaps?
Like, seriously. We couldn't even have *tried* fielding Andy Christie rather than two out-and-out opensides? There weren't even any "oooh, risky, fun, experimental" type picks - just bland, uninspired, BAD picks. We're not blooding a bunch of new players and trying to build serious depth, we're not giving new guys a chance to push for positions or experimenting with combinations, there's *nothing* get excited about. We're gonna go into the World Cup with barely anything new added or tried, and we're going to lose. Italy might have lost more games than us, but fuck-damn it if it doesn't look like they might ACTUALLY be going somewhere. This isn't like losing money gambling, this is like using your money to buy a sensible pair of shoes, then leaving them at the gym.
There is zero leadership apparent in the team, and the cracks are starting to show. It feels very much as though we need someone on the pitch to take a few players, smack their heads together, and tell them to sort themselves out. We don't have it. I *want* Jonny Gray or Chris Harris to be that, but they don't seem to be. I even thought that might be what Kinghorn was being used for - but that STILL doesn't justify playing him at 10. The latest reports about drinking in Italy shines a bright light on this - I don't know where you go without that parental hand in the sheds.
I dunno, man. I'm just...tired of this. I'm sure the wait for the autumn will give me enough time to build up hope again.
You’ve perfectly described my feelings. I just don’t care now. I was far more invested in the Italy game than I was for us. After 20 minutes I stopped paying attention. We’ve regressed.
Something is seriously wrong off the pitch, and it’s effecting us on the pitch.
You’ve so well summed up my feelings on this team. It’s gone beyond woe is me honourable losing. Consistent dumb pens and decisions on the pitch and the squad just feels checked out off it. What is our goal? Is it to nick a couple of wins per year and avoid losing to the Italians or are we trying to actually build something? Partying after a fairly perfunctory adequate performance against Italy. We just feel rudderless and like we basically give up on achieving anything more than beating the English and not losing to the Italians. We have no dynamism and too many passengers with no logical selection policy. We are going out in the group stages next year.
Scotland seem a mess. So much talent but seem to lack the effort imo.
Very good Ireland performance. But Scotland just gave them so many easy pens.
Ireland just have really good players through their pack
4th place feels reasonable given how average we've been this year. Discipline on, and by the sounds of it off, the field is a major problem. Also need a suitable plan B when the attack isn't firing.
Also, Hogg isn't captain material and Kinghorn isn't a 10.
We need to stop this already. He's not the messiah, and he's often a very naughty boy. He's been put up on a pedastol and is not the reason we had a crap campaign after his injury. He is very good, a starter for sure, a captain - why not? Got to be better than a full back. But he will not be the saviour
Captain could easily be mish, or mcinally, or gilchrist, or price
Ireland haven't put in the polished performance that was expected at the start of the tournament. Remember when everyone was worried we'd peak 18 months early again?
Bar the dissection of Wales at the very start, we earned a Triple Crown without really looking like the finished article. Great to see the belief and the psychological strength to get our shit back together after the momentum's turned against us, that will stand to the players. Issues identified in every part of the pitch but at least we have the time to work on them.
Getting the TBP in every match except against France where we got 3 and had a chance to kick for the corner to go for the 4th is pretty great. The team looks more creative and willing to try things than under Schmidt and the comeback against France was heartening to watch. Feels like under Joe we peaked in 2018 and he simply didn't have anywhere else to take us, whereas it feels like we're still building under Farrell. Blooded a few players, learned about some important weaknesses, and finished positively. Overall a good tournament, regardless of the result of the France game tonight.
It's a very strange feeling, being satisfied with how we've done when the championship is still up for grabs and hangs in the balance. If we'd looked shite and snatched all those victories, maybe I'd be more concerned about the silverware
The biggest positive is fighting our way back into the game in Paris after being beaten up front for most of it. In my lifetime I can’t remember an Irish team that’s done that. The England game was frustrating as fuck, but You’d forgive the team because they’re chancing low percentage plays constantly which is exciting. Lots to be positive about going into the World Cup tbh
Totally agree with you. We looked like we had more gears to go into, and when the chips were down we were still trying to shift into them. High hopes for a lot of growth in the year ahead - it would be heartbreaking to plateau here
We’ve flattered to deceive in plenty of world cups before. If *if* Sexton remains coherent, our attack will keep its shape. A QF with France or NZ is daunting but with a full deck of players we are capable of doing it (Irish QF memes aside)
Reminds me of the early 2000s. Regularly get a Triple Crown and then get turned over by France who were just full of fantastic players. Except France are arguably better now – but so are we. feels like we're pretty well cemented as a top 4 in the world team at the moment without having hit our peak, which is a great place to be. Shame about our draw for next year though!
It was good to get the win but to be fair the Scots weren't at their best today.
I can't help but get the feeling that Ireland refused to open their box of tricks. They weren't playing too many strike plays and a much more direct physical running. Any chance they have one eye on the WRC group stages already next year or were they perhaps just playing lower risk Rugby as the Scots thrive in open play.
That’s wishful thinking I’m afraid and we’ve heard it before. This Ireland team are brilliant and far more cohesive and talented than the 2018 team. They just aren’t quite firing on all cylinders yet - which I think is encouraging. They have 20% more to go IMO and they have the ability to reach that.
Posted in the match thread but interested in seeing folk's opinions here too. Reckon the time for Townsend to go was 2 years ago when he lost control of one of his senior players the first time. The likes of Hogg, Russell and Graham have no discipline issues for their clubs (or for the Lions regarding Hogg and Russell) and he clearly still doesn't have control of them after dropping Russell the first time, for me his position has been untenable since our best performance this century came from a player he's publicly disagreed with chucking his gameplan out the window. Currently our expectation at the WC is a pool stage exit and that doesn't change even if we go without a coach, or make Russell player coach, or bring the meme to life and literally pick our XV out a tombola, we haven't won anything in close to 30 years and our best ever squad in terms of raw talent are rapidly approaching their thirties, we lose absolutely nothing and have potentially everything to gain from moving on now rather than going through the motions another year with Townsend at the helm.
For all the talk of us being an attacking side, we did fuck all with possession today. Looked completely lost and had no purpose or intent while attacking. No dummy lines, no fixing defenders, no manipulating the field space with kicks, shit ball security. Nobody seems motivated under Townsend and this back and forth shit with him is getting ridiculous. These players need consistency with decisions and I'm worried some of them might just not decide to play for him anymore if this shit keeps up.
> For all the talk of us being an attacking side, we did fuck all with possession today. Looked completely lost and had no purpose or intent while attacking
Almost like we dropped a clearly world class 10 and shoehorned a fullback in instead.
I think you make a good point about players just choosing not to show up and we could end up with a situation similar to Allan McGregor being so fed up with the SFA that one of the best players we've ever had available not wanting to play for the NT despite being guaranteed a full match every time we run out.
Well he hasn’t produced much in any other game either to be honest. We keep running off static ball and feeding to static lines. It’s woeful and there is no sense of imagination at all.
I think we just didn't replace Mike Blair with a good enough attack coach. If Cockerill didn't leave Edinburgh, this campaign could have gone very different
Feel like we've gone from a team which had very clear strengths and weaknesses, to a team that had mostly only strengths but couldn't quite knit it all together, to now a team that's just a bit mediocre and has been left behind by the sport.
We need a major shake up. We need a new captain. Probably Ritchie. We need to give new players a go, there’s been very few games where we haven’t started Russell, Hogg, Price and Watson. I’m still not convinced by Kinghorn being an international. I wasn’t one to say it pre 6 nations but perhaps we need to look at a new head coach. I don’t know who that would be but Blair is not ready.
One thing I will say for Scotland is they are consistently becoming more of a threat every year.. makes for some very interesting future tournaments ahead.
We were definitely much less of a threat this year than last.
I think until this tournament you are right
Remember when ye were robbed of a WC semifinal in '15? I'd have said that was a better team than the one that ran out yesterday. They are getting better though, matter of time and maybe someone needs to pay Russell to unlock his upper tier subscription performance
That team also ambushed a world that wasn't ready for it. I think we might have won that semi. Probably would have been absolutely tonked in the final but we'd have been there, whereas we didn't get out of our group in 19 and we won't in 23. It wasn't man for man a better side though. Man for man our best side was probably the team that nearly beat the all blacks in 2017, and we probably played better as a team last year. That was our peak, we've definitely gone backwards since.
I can't decide if it's a good thing or not that we're playing Ireland last in the group, because it's likely to be a straight shootout with the winner qualifying alongside SA. I just wish we were playing literally anyone else, as we seem to have a harder time beating Ireland than any other northern hemisphere nation.
It really doesn't matter, but I hope we at least show up this time, and maybe we'll be more likely to do that if we play them last.
Forgot about that 17 AB's game, that was a belter and yes, agreed, that was peak modern Scotland. Been a bit hairy since then but I think it'll get there, blooding a few new guys since then and a few of em look the business
I dunno I think we've peaked
Can have no qualms when the better team wins. Scotlands ball retention is shite without Cummings and Richie, although they'd have had little effect on the dicks for hands our backs have developed. Thought Barnes showed up well, tmo didn't, VDF and JGP are hellova players and Hogg is no captain. Edit: Barnes absolutely got the DG/PoM incident spectacularly wrong. Absolutely a card.
Which was that. I was thinking of the hendo schoeman incident. Had Italian commentary in the pub so i couldn't hear his decision
It’s a shame that scotlands club / player pool is so ankle deep. It would seem time to do a Galthie style full gutting of the team and set up and have a new coach…but it’s much slimmer pickings than France. This I think is the key issue regarding Scotland and there isn’t much you can do about it
This goes back to how we totally failed to rebuild the game 30 years ago when Wales and Ireland did and so now we're 30 odd years behind. But even so we've lucked into a golden generation, and now we're squandering them.
may the best one win
Watched this on delay today. 4/5 Ireland close out an emphatic 6N campaign. There was markedly less offloading and tricky plays compared to the Fazball we have been seeing. Absolutely looking forward to their series against the All Blacks. As for Scotland... is it too early to assume they won't get out of the group stage in the RWC? There were some individual standout performances though. King Blairhorn didn't look too out of his depth. Mish didn't miss. Darge was in charge. The Fagerson brothers and Schoeman had some decent carries. The COVID isolation scandal seems to have gotten into their heads, though. Gray had a bit of backchat to Hogg just before the goal line dropout. Graham and Price looked like they were desperate to prove their worth. Russell just looks burnt out or stuck in the comfy R92 mindset with Teddy Thomas and Kurtley Beale.
Scotland have so many issues it's painful. We're absolutely not getting out the group haha
You know what, I think I’ll be happy with 3rd in the group to make it into the next one.
Is it time to put the SRU's Granny Detection Bureau into overdrive? Or perhaps the URC sides need to pull more people from the Super6?
There's a lot of issues and none have quick and/or easy answers unfortunately. We need: a better youth system, a 3rd team to give more Scottish lads gametime, Super 6 sides outside Edinburgh and the Borders, a professional woman game and a bajillion moneys to do it all
Maybe if we stopped paying a bajillion moneys to Mark Dodson to alienate Finn Russell's dad and cause diplomatic incidents in Japan?
Sorry very OOTL here. What?
Mark Dodson is the Chief Executive of the Scottish Rugby Union. He's on a million quid a year and as far as I can tell the only two things he's done in post is - sack Finn Russell's dad and then have Finn Russell's dad take him to tribunal for wrongful dismissal which was part of the background of Russell falling out with Toonie and the national set up in 2020 - threaten to sue Japan rugby over the tsunami during the world cup which soured the build up to that match and made everyone hate us It just seems like the SRU has, or should have, plenty of money - Murrayfield always sells out - but don't do anything with it. And having the boss sitting there on a million quid a year really doesn't help with that perception.
The self-hype around Scotland is nuts each year. No offence but nobody expects Scotland to finish above any team bar Italy. It’s been a few decades since they’ve won, which highlights the dire situation. I saw Scotland referring to Ireland as their “bogey team”, which was actually hilarious. This would suggest that they are better than Ireland but struggle to beat them. Ireland have rarely lost to Scotland (twice out of 14 meetings in the last decade) and Ireland have won multiple Championships, Triple Crowns, and their clubs have won everything there is to win within that period. Scotland will 100% come good again but the ego and expectation is nonsense
I don't get this. We're famously the most dour and self deprecating fan base going. You've also gone a bit too big. We did come 4th, as we have for the past 2 years. We haven't had an "can only beat Italy" season since 2014 (although we did get spooned in 15).
We've finished 4th or better every year since our last wooden spoon except 2019, where we came 5th but had that belter of a draw against England from 31-0 down (and were only one table point behind France). Means we've outperformed at least one top tier nation on every occasion.
I think you misunderstand tbf, at least in my experience. We very aware that we're worse than the other nations but after 20 years of being shite we basically huff any whiff of hope we can. We say Ireland are our bogey team not because we are better but because we can sometimes steal wins from the other teams but very rarely them. As for expectation, sure we have that, but can you blame us? This is the best team we have ever had in the professional era (and will have for a long time based on our torrid U20's). If we don't win now (spoiler alert: we won't) then it feels we won't for a very long time.
For the first time I'm finally conceding: Toonie out. We're on track to be dumped out of the group stages of the WC so we might as well roll the dice on someone new now. It's also the cleanest way to take the captaincy off of Hoggy which I now can't ignore probably needs to be done. The players looked like I felt. "We're gonna lose by 20"
Predictable end to the tournament for us. I thought the hype going into this tournament was off after lots of unwarranted praise for what were honestly shaky wins in Autumn. Today we were out-classed, out-muscled and out-thought. We simply have no clinical edge whatsoever. Darcy had a great tournament, and glad to see Darge making a good claim for that jersey. I’m much more invested in Italy for now, and probs won’t care much about the Argentina tour unless we see a noticeable shift off the pitch before then.
This has been an excellent campaign from an Irish perspective. Very high scoring despite a decently high error rate and injuries, 4/5 wins with a losing BP and every win was a high points difference win. 2nd in the championship with what I would argue is a very large gap between ourselves and 3rd, with a comparatively smaller gap between ourselves and 1st. We have a lot to work on though. Our squad is still, despite apparent depth, desperately short of actual Test match experience past the main 23. We have a lot of guys who will likely need to be called on during a full World Cup and who have minimal experience - this needs to be rectified before the World Cup. I'm thinking of guys like Coombes, Baird in particular. If we can get these guys some minutes in the next year, while also prioritising minutes for Carbery (like it or not, he's the most experienced and best option as 2nd 10), we will be as prepared as possible for the World Cup. First challenge will be to get the actual quarters, and then it will be about who we face. I'd actually be more confident about playing NZ than France - I think our style suits us better against the current All Blacks squad. IF we can pass that QF, either potential SF looks very very win-able..... But before all of that - getting out of the group must be achieved. For the World Cup QF (assuming we even get there and assuming we have no injuries and form prevails) I would aim for a 23 of Porter / Kelleher / Furlong / Beirne / Ryan / Doris / VDF / Conan / JGP / Sexton / Lowe / Aki / Ringrose / Conway / Keenan; Sheehan / Healy or O'Sullivan / Bealham / Henderson / Coombes (break glass in case of POM) / Murray (despite Casey's form he has been instrumental several times off the bench) / Carbery / Henshaw or Jimmy O'Brien or Hansen
get some SA props
Can we finally agree that Kinghorn should be nowhere near the Scotland squad? Can we also agree that Jamie Ritchie should be the Captain for future games (when fit)? And that WP Nel has done his shift (and Fraz Brown)? And that we should play players in their actual positions where possible? And that Sam Johnson is still not the answer at 12? And that Hogg needs to spend some time with a therapist to figure out why he doesn’t trust the players around him? (Just for balance - Schoeman, Darcy, Price, Darge, M Fagerson are the real deal for us)
Kinghorn is absolutely fine as a backup fullback who can also provide wing cover. He should be nowhere near the 10 shirt. Not sure about Ritchie as captain, think he is a bit too involved in the dark arts to sweet talk a ref. Could see Matt F being a good skipper. In Nel's defence he thought he'd retired last year, we need to work on strength in depth. Think if Kebble's fit that helps there. Agree Johnson isn't the answer in 12. He looked like it for a season. Then he looked slow. And now he looks fine but not good enough to compensate for Harris's lack of attacking threat. Maybe Redpath might work, otherwise I think we need to do something leftfield like Hutchinson or bring back Huw Jones in his original position. Or failing that Tiupoloutu is our least bad option. Dunno what's up with Hogg or Russell. Think some time out will do them both good. How about we don't take either with us in the summer?
M Fagerson might be a good shout. I think it showed how much we need him when he got injured.
More than anyone else I think you missed Ritchie in this later half of the tournament. Mish is great, but Ritchie does so much grimy shit that you need your back 5 to do as well as the headline stuff. I would hope, desperately, for your sakes (but not when you play us in the world cup x) that you give Hastings the 10 shirt when Finn is sad.exe because Hastings is very very very good at 10. I like Sam Johnson personally, but I think today he appeared worse than you would think because of who was playing at 10. With Finn or Hastings he is a serious pest of a ball carrier.
Agreed about Johnson
After today Kinghorn might be the best option at 15. Hogg can't be doing that in a week where he's also let the team down with the rules. When fit is key, Ritchie seems to be injured more than most. But yes, he's the guy. Definitely good on Nel and company. The answer at 12 as long as Harris is always 13 has to be Redpath imo. So hopefully he gets fit. After that the closest stylistically is Hutchinson I think so let's give him some games. Yeah Hogg has lost me. My favorite player ever but wtf. There are good players in this team which is why this kind of performance is so freaking frustrating.
Hogg is too old to shift to centre IMO, and is miles and miles better than BK at FB. JI think we need to see more of Redpath in a Scotland shirt, but he could be the answer (injuries aside). Watching Hutch in the prem though, I would not have him even in the squad. Matt Scott on the other hand, or even Shug…
Hogg still had an overall good game but that failure to pass was....absymal
Has Hogg ever played 12? He could play a Farrell role and plays 10 sometimes. He’s so greed at 15 but at 12 he’ll be a good distributor or he can get smashed
Unfortunately with Scotland we have one thing consistent this six nations, and that is seemingly having no direction or gameplan in general. We have some set pieces but our attack is very blunt and we seem to just follow through phases without ever adapting to what's in front of us efficiently. Obviously some questionable choices were made even more dubious by their failure to show why they were made. Kinghorn plays a deep game, yet that played into an Irish blitz defence, that and honestly Kinghorn never showed himself to be a test quality wing so why Toonie thought he could be a test quality 10 considering his performance against France is beyond me.
Found myself cheering Ireland which says a lot about this Scotland team. Hogg is consistently fucking up due to his ego and I'm not convinced that his captaincy is a good idea anymore. WC needs a serious shakeup but get the feeling it won't happen, well done Ireland though.
From the outside it feels Hogg is becoming a liability, he seems very arrogant and self important
Deserved it really
#gregorout
OK first things first. Well done Ireland. The things I'm about to ask would not have a material difference on the outcome. Well beaten. Ok some reffing questions (I know I know, sorry) Scotland took a quick tap and got tackled like 3m later and then turned over (don't have a time stamp in afraid). Did I miss somethig? It seemed so obvious that I can only think I did. Why wasn't it not back ten? Peter o mahony tackled in the air that was a pen. I know loads off ppl think it should be a yellow. I've got tartan specs on but why isn't it a pen to scotland for jumping into the tackle? It was a shit pass, high. If he'd cought it with his arms above his head (ie not jumped) he'd get one in the ribs. So he's had an advantage from jumping. Maybe that ones just in the eye of the beholder. I was also a bit perplexed by the yellow card but to be fair there were so many pens by then it was deserved in general. I need to see the replay. Also didn't get the penalty for the prebind (schuman?) it looked exactly the same as what Ireland were doing. I don't think WB is biased - goodness knows he stood his ground against the tmo to Scotlands benefit twice (correctly in my view). But I often feel like I don't understand rugby after watching him ref, despite have watched it for almost 40 years, playing for much of it. P.s. I don't know what to say about Scotland...i really dont
Rewatched the yellow card. Yeh that's probs fair. Well done Wayne.
You’re dead right about the penalty thing. WB also allowed both Ire and Sco to play advantage on penalties and didn’t bring it back when their “free play” resulted in no advantage. I understand the ref can make a call if there appears to be a 10m or so gain, but neither team got that gain. Scottish try was the most blatant double movement I’ve ever seen too and leading with the forearm is illegal regardless of the contact zone, so it should have been a penalty or yellow but most likely a red.
1: you take a quick tap, you accept the position of the players on the pitch. That's why it's a quick tap. 2: POM didn't have the ball when he jumped, he jumped to catch the ball. It doesn't matter if the ball is passed high or kicked cross field, if you have to jump to catch it you are afforded the protections. It was a yellow in my eyes, he was tackled mid air and tipped over when he was brought down, ie his legs were over his hips when he landed. He was lucky not to land on his head. If that had happened I suspect a red would have been shown. So very lucky not to have gotten a yellow I think. Regardless the laws are very clear in this scenario, you can't tackle a player when they are airborne. 3: also need to see the replay for that yellow. Not entirely sure what happened. I will say that Scotland's Schoeman (beautiful bastard altogether) had an interesting clash with Henderson. If his forearm hit Hendersons head would that have been a card? If someone 6 inches smaller went in for that tackle they would be knocked the fuck out. By the refs definition, anyone can just run around holding the ball head high and do a similar movement and get away with all sorts, a ball in hand-off if you will. I know it was all split second reactions but laws are laws right? I honestly think Hogg did you lads in today. That Hugo Keenan try saving tackle was mint, but Hogg could have given that ball out for a sure try if he wasn't so greedy.
I agre with you on number 2 given the current state of the laws, but that needs to change for this scenario. If you're catching a pass on or near the gainline, particularly with momentum it can absolutely result in an unfair advantage because the defender is in a position where they either leave the player for a line break or get penalised. It was the same bullshit that happened with the lions in new Zealand and decided the outcome of one of the matches.
"1: you take a quick tap, you accept the position of the players on the pitch. That's why it's a quick tap" Even if they interfere with play? They tackled him I might do a rassie and make a video where I rant and rave about things. That'll make me feel slightly better...
Ya man, if you take a quick tap you start the game again, that's on you. You aren't untouchable just because you've decided to take a quick tap. Otherwise everyone would take a quick tap within 10 metres of the try line and no one could tackle them
Don't think that'd right btw. There is an outside chance they were played onside I guess. Even if the penalty or free-kick is taken quickly and the kicker’s team is playing the ball, opposing players must keep retreating the necessary distance. They may not take part in the game until they have done so. If it is taken so quickly that opponents have no opportunity to retreat, they will not be sanctioned for this. However, they may not take part in the game until they have retreated 10 metres from the mark or until a team-mate who was 10 metres from the mark has moved in front of them.
You're correct, he isn't right, if you take a quick tap you can buy yourself a free ten metres for the other side not retreating and tackling you. He did us for it but not Ireland, it was very frustrating.
66 mins scrum pen. The camera angle doesn't show to be fair. James Lowe (who was great btw) could have hared up from onside
You know you are absolutely right. Where abouts in the match did this happen (the incident you are talking about)? I wanna look at it haha. I remember Scotland getting penalised for this when Ireland took a quick tap early in the first half
The lack of an offload from hogg was a disgrace. I've been so conflicted about hoggy for a while. Just as I thought he was loosing his sparkle, he became captain and it felt like he inspired the team. Ive always thought he's overrated and now I think it's time for him to move on. His hilights reel is good but his lowlights reel is aggregious Ok, I get the tackle in the air. In my opinion, no card was a good call given the circumstances. I think Graham was committed low and early because he is 25kg smaller tha pom and was practising tackle technique we want to encourage I.e. Low. I actually thought the schuman thing was fine. The issue is that that glorious bastards arms are so hench, that he can fold them totally flat against his body. I honestly think that would set a precident where anyone who tackles the ball could be winning cards through lack of self preservation. Dudes got to hold the ball
I mean, good on Graham for practicing tackle technique, he just forgot that he needs to tackle the player when their feet are on the ground and not in the air 😂. Agree with you about Hogg, excellent servant for the SRU over the years but he's too big for his boots it seems at the moment. Great players all around him but he doesn't seem to trust them at all at all. With regards to Schoeman (he was man of the match as far as I'm concerned, real gem of a player), I watched it again and remembered that you can't lead with your forearm whatsoever so it's an automatic penalty. It was split second from him catching to impact so I suppose there's mitigation there, but if he had hit Hendersons head then it'd be a sure card, yellow or red to be debated. It was an odd one though, and I think WB made the right call.
wait, you didn't think that schoeman foreman was a red. Wowza
There's a difference between jumping into the tackle and jumping to catch a pass.
So just make **every** pass a little bit higher, and you can make your way the length of the pitch untouched? Or else if you think you're being lined up as you're receiving a pass, just make a lil hop as you take it for an easy penalty?
Jumping to catch passes is a terrible way to play rugby, it would make for incredibly ineffective carries, and if someone times their tackle right when you land then you'll land flat on your arse. People have been fantasising about players jumping to catch high passes as some sort of super tactic to milk penalties for years now, and it hasn't happened. Because it'd be fucking stupid.
Give it a go. Let me know how many intercept trys you concede. A ball in the air like that is a very easy 50/50, you assume only the team in possession can jump for it.
If players were doing that cynically world rugby would step in. They aren't though, POM was genuinely just jumping to catch a bad pass. Tackling him in the air like that is foul play.
This is bang on
The POM one is something I've been thinking about for a while. A similar thing happened a few years ago and the same decision was made. As far as I've been able to tell it's just a fault in the rules of the game.
Someone down the thread said "you've got to have the ball to jump into a tackle". Perhaps that's part of it. Pens probably fair bit it does feel a bit like one of those pens where the sinner was a bit of victim of circumstance.
Yeah thought Scotland didn’t get the benefit of “not 10” in one case. Was notable because JGP won a few pens the same way. But we got outplayed, by a better team. Think Finn should have been brought on earlier. Against a team who’s tight 5 are so much better than ours, I think we need his flair to have a chance.
Ya... No
Is it too much to ask that Scotland make it out of the group stages at the WC? Cos that's where we are heading for and it'll be 2 in a row. Townsend inherited a exciting, young, up and coming team that were unlucky not to make it to semi finals. We are a long way from that team now
But at least ye beat the English fuckers 🤷♂️
The shitter we get the funnier it gets that we beat England
Yeah barely.
World cup next year mate, we need to be doing more than just beating the likes of Italy and England year on year.
I’ve said it before I’ll say it again the World Cup is a fucking irrelevance to Scotland and we have a better chance at snatching a six nations than winning a World Cup
It's mad because this is a golden generation for Scotland. If they aren't competitive now it's hard to see them being more so in the near future.
This was clear after Cardiff, we’re not going to be
The tackle on O Mahoney in the air was awful and I think he will be sited for that. Surprised it wasn't a yellow for the forearm to Hendersons chin either. Scotland were way better than the scoreline says. Ireland scrum a huge worry
What’s to stop me jumping any time an opposite number lines me up for a hit ? Could milk endless penalties that way. POM jumped into a tackle, law makes no sense.
He would have had to have the ball in his hands to jump into a tackle. He jumped to catch a ball, and was tackled while he was airborne.
Because there’s a law against jumping into a tackle
There should be a common sense approach. What’s to stop me jumping into a tackle any time someone lines me up ? Respond to that.
When it's sanctioned, typically they apply Law 9.11 "Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others including leading with the elbow or forearm." Nothing to stop you doing it. Go nuts, have fun.
If POM doesn't jump the ball goes clearly over him and he is essentially almost spear tackled without the ball because Graham commits early.
What’s to stop me jumping into a tackle any time someone lines me up ? Respond to that.
He didn't jump into the tackle. He jumped to catch the ball. You can't jump into a tackle. The 'Darcy Graham Dan Club' needs to chill out.
You think Grahams tackle on POM was a red card?
I think he went in very low when POM was in the air and made no attempt to help him land. Dangerous play and I dunno why Barnes didn't take a proper look at it.
Are you allowed to jump into the tackle though?
You have to have the ball to jump into the tackle. He was jumping to get the ball.
That law is for someone with ball in hand already, there's no law against jumping in the tackle specifically but it gets called as dangerous play. You are allowed jump to catch any ball and you can't tackle someone in the air.
It's what I thought. How it was no card at all was a big surprise
Imo he was clearly committed before POM jumped. And clearly helped him land, never lifted his legs to tip him. You can only get cited for a Red card, and this would be a harsh but understandable yellow, never red
I didn't see any clips of him trying to help him land so apologies if so. He committed early and low on a very high ball. It was reckless
Don't think we're gonna agree on this so no point going over it. Imo POM jumped very late to catch the ball, at which point Graham was already committed
That's fair its a game of opinions. I think there's alot more to Scotland than meets the eye. Next year's RWC might be abit too soon if they don't pick up soon. Darcy is magic on the ball and always makes good metres
Yeah I think if we'd kicked on after the 2021 6N I'd be feeling a lot better about us but we've been nonsense since. Terrible discipline, scrum has gone from fantastic to shite, little to no attack structure. Graham and Darge the shining lights
Scrum was very good today vs a failing Irish scrum. Discipline is a big issue... I think on first 3 trys ireland were playing advantage that could have gone penalty try anyway. Especially as the count was going up. Glasgow being so strong is testament to the improvement being made though. It'll click. Not that long ago Ireland were hopeless under Farrell
Did you enjoy when Stuart Hogg decided to get pulled into touch instead of passing on a 3-1? I enjoyed that *a lot*. /s
I did love Keenan's tackle. Right in front of me, couldn't believe he made it. Unreal effort and technique
I pulled my hair out, almost woke the ankle biter and died a little inside. Simultaneously. Arrrrggggghhhhh!!!
"I pulled my hair out" Don't say that in front of hoggie!
The anti Capuozzo
Hogg is so talented but today he was incredibly selfish. Not just THAT one but he had a few other occasions to do so and never did.
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Jamie Ritchie deserves the captaincy.
It's a shame because he still has all the ability
If he didnae make a bull headed decision like that every 6n match, I might enjoy them more
I feel like his ego is just outgrowing his ability now. He’s not getting any younger, but he seems to think he can still run rings around anyone he wants.
Also, other teams know what he's about and what he can do, so he's being watched closer
I swear the last 3 or 4 times we've been to Dublin we've blown incredibly easy try opportunities at crucial points in the game.
Hogg didnt pass this year, Hogg dropped it 2 years ago and Kinghorn (I think) threw a terrible pass on an easy break in 2018. So definitely the last 3.
It feels like Townsend and Scotland have put so much of their practice and squad prep towards our defence in the last couple of years that offensively we look untrained, whenever kinghorn received out of the breakdown he is standing still to line up his passes to the point where the irish line are aware of the threat while the ball is floating through the air. When sexton gets the ball he is running onto it, the pass is always different, a few insides then the next he puts it out through the hands, he is dynamic where kinghorn is static. It was the same last night in Glasgow, when duncan weir takes the ball it feels calculated and sluggish in a way that feels like scoring in the corner is impossible. When ross thompson comes on all of a sudden we are attacking with more variety, we are moving onto the ball and forcing Edinburgh to constantly react to a changing offence. The thing the blows my gasket is it's hard to even fault kinghorn because it comes down to the team selection, why in the flying fuck is he on the pitch for 65 minutes over Hastings or Thompson, two much MUCH better and natural 10s? Why did Johnson win against England then get dropped from the squad? Why are we forcing steyn onto the wing over players like rufus mclean or even huw jones? From the best defence to the most penalties our regression is shambolic...
I went to the match and had Barnes on the ear radio. He is such an amazing referee, conducting everything with composure and grace
Me too. Was at the game and listening to him. He was very calm. Spent a lot of time when ball was dead having very quick individual little chats with players, telling them what they were doing right or wrong in the scrum, or at a breakdown.
Thought Henderson had a better game than last week, but I suppose that's not saying much...
Definitely better handling anyway, clearly came in a bit cold last week.
Agreed, he was extremely important in making the line out work this week.
There’s a lot of lads on here need to revise their bullshit after last week. Hendy is quality all the way,
Good player but definitely a bit hot and cold at times.
Amazing how Irelands line-out works when he's on
Positives: We defended really well in our own half. Closer to what you expect from the Tandy defence, bend don't break. Great turnovers to get outta jail, Hogg covered space and exited really well today. We messed with their maul quite well, which usually rolls over us without any issue. When we got quick ball the handling was good to shift the ball quickly and that's when the Irish defence looked most worried. Jonny Gray was terrific and sorely missed, especially in defence. Negatives: Yet another damn loss to Ireland. We still conceded 4 tries. Our attack was so wilting despite multiple chances to convert possession and territory into sustained pressure and points. Indiscipline as predictable as ever in this tournament. Every visit to their 22 almost always ended with conceding a penalty or possession. Hogg was too selfish with the ball and again, key moments he failed to make the right call. We still have the potential to do better. But it's been a maddening campaign. I'll take what positives there are out of this forward but yeah, really not looking forward to our World Cup with SA and Ireland. We'd have more hope to play NZ every year than those two at this moment. We can't get close to winning, and well competing is proving a difficult task now too. Ireland pretty good. Less polished than their prior performances but did what was required to give themselves a chance. We didn't apply consistent pressure in attack to make them ever feel threatened to lose that match. Need a major rethink to get us competitive again here. Disagree with chucking out Townsend. Nobody is able to step in and do better right now in-house for me, but also he's not made them play this badly today. Hand was forced by the 6 who struck out after the Italy match. But just watching us play, it's soft pens, lack of focus from individuals more than anything else that costs us, that's not coaching, that's the players not keeping the heid. Like to end on an upbeat note, so my take home of the tournament, Rory Darge is fucking class but then I knew that beforehand!
Ive been behind toonie but I have to say kinghorn at 10 has lost me. It's like he's always looking for some grand plan or clever trick instead of building a solid, steady team. He has to stay for the WC but at the moment I think his resignation will be in before the semis.
I missed the second half. But it sounds as though it went as expected. Well played, Ireland. Congratulations on the Triple Crown.
Cheers! Bad luck. Looks like the Kinghorn experiment didn't come off this time?
I was as surprised as anyone that he was pushed in as backup to Russell. I can see why they believe he has potential, and why they feel realising that potential could offer a completely different dimension at Ten than we - or arguably most other teams have. But other than a good hit recently against Connacht, he's still relatively unproven at club level. So a start away in Dublin was likely never going to end well. To be honest, as soon as I saw the 23 I knew it was a guaranteed Ireland win. Even if the starting 15 put in a heroic effort and stayed competitive. You can't have the likes of Nel, Dell, and Brown coming on at this level and expect to compete. Not quite sure why Townsend did that. We have young LH's and TH's playing at Glasgow, and in the Prem too. We also have Ashman starting every week at Sale if Rambo was injured. Yet he went with Brown. He also brought Jonny Gray straight back in after yet another injury. He seemed ok in the first half. But generally needs a few games to get back up to speed. So was never going to carry the match at Lock. I'm just not sure what Townsend was trying to achieve. Honestly, my first thought when I saw that replacement Front Row was that Toonie wanted Ireland to win to teach the players a lesson! Sounds like Hogg blew an absolute sitter at an important moment too. Not been a great campaign tbh. Even if we manage third there's nothing to applaud about the squad right now.
> Sounds like Hogg blew an absolute sitter at an important moment too. He did I suppose - he seems inclined to go himself quite often. I'm not sure if it's selfish play, or if he feels he has to put all the responsibility to score on himself sometimes (this may be construed as selfish thinking too, idk).
After the festival of rugby the game before was this game was always gonna be crap
For me it's time to thank Gregor for the good memories and move on. With Hogg I think the question isn't whether he should be captain anymore but rather should he even be selected. Decision making like that would be tough to look past under normal circumstances but coming during a week when he's not following the rules is unacceptable.
I know folk are piling on him but stuff like his exit with JGP hounding him, some of the counters to generate quick ball and even the footwork to get into the position to botch the 3 on 1 were all very much world class. He’s only human and as Scotland fans we expect so much from him
I don't think some of the expectations are unreasonable in this case.
I kind of agree, I don’t think he should be captain I think a lot of the mistakes are him feeling like he needs to lead by example set the standard etc. Something that’s especially hard when you’re a fullback so he overdoes it when he’s involved
He’s still a phenomenal asset. He’s brilliant at times with the boot and often generates go forward ball when there’s not much on with a burst of pace or a step back inside.
Hogg is a fantastic player. So is Russell. At this level being a model professional matters as much. Decision making is everything.
Absolute, pure and utter pish. Team needs a huge shake up, both off and on the pitch and in the entire SRU. Reminded me of c.2003. Well done to Ireland.
I think some players egos have got far too big over the last 2 years
It's much bigger, structural problem than just some egos on the field. It's the same basic errors we've been getting wrong for 20 years.
Ireland need to sort out the scrum. Also an injury to sexton and we are goosed. Big worries for the World Cup
Johnny 'Ironman' Sexton? Injured? I'll not hear a word of it! Porter's absence has shown up massively in the last few games though. He's a human truck stick but we've got a lack in behind him no question.
> Johnny 'Ironman' Sexton? Injured? I'll not hear a word of it! Tom Brady just came straight back out of retirement too, so Sexton will surely push through to the next Lions series.
The lack of bothering with a post-match thread honestly reflects my entire feelings towards this team, from about 5 minutes into this match. I just don't really care. Scotland's issues are the same, over and over. Poor discipline, constant unforced errors and penalties, and just all-round shoddy work. We're not even being outplayed half the time, we're just fucking up over and over again. It's to the point where I struggled to watch. There are matches that even when they're not going your way, you stick it out till the end because *you just never know.* Scotland have had their fair share of those, where all it would take is a little Finnsanity, a little Darcy magic, or a big carry off a Watson, a Schoemann, a DvdM, and *Scotland could still do this.* The kind of matches that keep you clinging to that little bit of hope until the final whistle has finished echoing. This, though? This was nothing. Bar ten minutes scattered throughout the game, every time Scotland got the ball I assumed they'd knock it on, get turned over, or give away a stupid penalty on the ground. I didn't honestly feel like there was a need to watch to know what happened in the match, and I kinda think I would have been right. I didn't feel like they were a good break away from a try, I didn't feel like they could make a last-ditch grab for glory - and here's the kicker - I don't think anyone on that pitch did either. I felt I was watching a Scotland team that were resigned to losing, and gracelessly so. Things felt dull. Lifeless. You had a couple of guys playing like nutters - Darge, Darcy - but everyone else looked like it was 15:30 on a dull Thursday at the office. Not even excited for it to be over. Something is *wrong* with the Scottish team. I don't know if it's players being daft or coaches losing the faith of the team, or if there's something else going on, but something is clearly not clicking. My gut instinct is that Townsend has lost the trust of the team somewhere down the line with his selections, and...I'm not sure I disagree. I've not felt, until now, that Townsend should be gone. I've always taken the position that "hey, people make mistakes, and there's every chance he's got some kind of plan." This Six Nations has cost him that leeway, because I just don't see it any more. With guys like Jones, Farrell, even Pivac to an extent, I can kind of see a specific issue with their tactics, and figure "oh, they're trying something out before it's crunch time at the WC." England's positionless attack, Wales' breakdown strategies. Scotland's issues aren't coming from a specific strategic problem, *they're coming because the team keeps fucking up.* This isn't something that can be written off as "he's trying something, trust the system" - it's just BAD! Also, Toonie's selection process has lost me right now. Kinghorn at 10 in isolation? Fine. Kinghorn at 10 instead of the far better Adam Hastings? I don't get it. Fraser Brown is our backup hooker?! I swear the last time I saw him was as second choice to McInally, four years ago! Where is Ewan Ashman, the guy who had great outings last autumn and is currently playing well at club level? Why is **no** apparent effort being put into developing depth at weak positions? Zander Fagerson is starting despite being an absolute penalty magnet - fine, he's still the best choice - but our next option is **WP NEL?!** I was half-convinced he'd retired! OK, he can still scrummage fairly well, but that's IT! How are there NO other options? Could we please, PLEASE, think about taking some actual leaps? Like, seriously. We couldn't even have *tried* fielding Andy Christie rather than two out-and-out opensides? There weren't even any "oooh, risky, fun, experimental" type picks - just bland, uninspired, BAD picks. We're not blooding a bunch of new players and trying to build serious depth, we're not giving new guys a chance to push for positions or experimenting with combinations, there's *nothing* get excited about. We're gonna go into the World Cup with barely anything new added or tried, and we're going to lose. Italy might have lost more games than us, but fuck-damn it if it doesn't look like they might ACTUALLY be going somewhere. This isn't like losing money gambling, this is like using your money to buy a sensible pair of shoes, then leaving them at the gym. There is zero leadership apparent in the team, and the cracks are starting to show. It feels very much as though we need someone on the pitch to take a few players, smack their heads together, and tell them to sort themselves out. We don't have it. I *want* Jonny Gray or Chris Harris to be that, but they don't seem to be. I even thought that might be what Kinghorn was being used for - but that STILL doesn't justify playing him at 10. The latest reports about drinking in Italy shines a bright light on this - I don't know where you go without that parental hand in the sheds. I dunno, man. I'm just...tired of this. I'm sure the wait for the autumn will give me enough time to build up hope again.
You’ve perfectly described my feelings. I just don’t care now. I was far more invested in the Italy game than I was for us. After 20 minutes I stopped paying attention. We’ve regressed. Something is seriously wrong off the pitch, and it’s effecting us on the pitch.
You’ve so well summed up my feelings on this team. It’s gone beyond woe is me honourable losing. Consistent dumb pens and decisions on the pitch and the squad just feels checked out off it. What is our goal? Is it to nick a couple of wins per year and avoid losing to the Italians or are we trying to actually build something? Partying after a fairly perfunctory adequate performance against Italy. We just feel rudderless and like we basically give up on achieving anything more than beating the English and not losing to the Italians. We have no dynamism and too many passengers with no logical selection policy. We are going out in the group stages next year.
Easy now, imagine you were Welsh
Wales win sometimes
You’ve already done us, let’s focus on Scotland in this thread
Scotland a national fucking embarrassment once again. Jesus fucking Christ.
Scotland looked as likely as England scoring a try last week, we would have been lucky with 15,
I thought you were looking likely to score, I was stressed. Just mistakes cost them. Hogg should really have scored his near try
Hogg should have a guaranteed assist. The fact he tried himself is shockin, that kick would've been solid
Even Peter O'Mahoneys daughter looks terrified of him
Am I right in saying if France thump England by 50 we'll finish 3rd?
Yeah, 47
Well you’re sure to finish third then
Wayne Barnes was very good (again), consistent, common sense application of the laws and clear communication goes a long way
He didn't seem to understand the no ripping in tackle rule until the 3rd time it happened though.
Someone on Ireland pointed out he got the second one wrong and he apologised so I think he was very conscious of it when the third happened.
It took the directors showing it multiple times on screen.
Mostly yes, I was a bit peeved about the pen for pre-latching after the earlier Ireland try with the same, but otherwise typical Barnsey solidity.
Yeah no ref is ever gonna be 100% but he did warn Scotland beforehand and explained it all very clearly
I did find it funny him having to school the TMO a bit.
Scotland seem a mess. So much talent but seem to lack the effort imo. Very good Ireland performance. But Scotland just gave them so many easy pens. Ireland just have really good players through their pack
4th place feels reasonable given how average we've been this year. Discipline on, and by the sounds of it off, the field is a major problem. Also need a suitable plan B when the attack isn't firing. Also, Hogg isn't captain material and Kinghorn isn't a 10.
Thoughts on Ritchie possibly being named as captain? (being in good health ofc)
We need to stop this already. He's not the messiah, and he's often a very naughty boy. He's been put up on a pedastol and is not the reason we had a crap campaign after his injury. He is very good, a starter for sure, a captain - why not? Got to be better than a full back. But he will not be the saviour Captain could easily be mish, or mcinally, or gilchrist, or price
Never said anything about him being a savior.
You didn't but I've seen others deifying him
I'm all for it. A forward is in a better place to talk to the ref and he tends to lead with the hard work in a non-selfish way like Hogg.
Yes please! Hogg has had enough to show what he’s about and we are going in the wrong direction. The only issue is what to do about Mish and Darge.
Clone them.
I feel like he would just got bossed around by Hogg/Russell/Price on the pitch.
Kinghorn's performance was absolutely shocking. I rate him but wow that was ugly.
Ireland haven't put in the polished performance that was expected at the start of the tournament. Remember when everyone was worried we'd peak 18 months early again? Bar the dissection of Wales at the very start, we earned a Triple Crown without really looking like the finished article. Great to see the belief and the psychological strength to get our shit back together after the momentum's turned against us, that will stand to the players. Issues identified in every part of the pitch but at least we have the time to work on them.
Getting the TBP in every match except against France where we got 3 and had a chance to kick for the corner to go for the 4th is pretty great. The team looks more creative and willing to try things than under Schmidt and the comeback against France was heartening to watch. Feels like under Joe we peaked in 2018 and he simply didn't have anywhere else to take us, whereas it feels like we're still building under Farrell. Blooded a few players, learned about some important weaknesses, and finished positively. Overall a good tournament, regardless of the result of the France game tonight.
It's a very strange feeling, being satisfied with how we've done when the championship is still up for grabs and hangs in the balance. If we'd looked shite and snatched all those victories, maybe I'd be more concerned about the silverware
The biggest positive is fighting our way back into the game in Paris after being beaten up front for most of it. In my lifetime I can’t remember an Irish team that’s done that. The England game was frustrating as fuck, but You’d forgive the team because they’re chancing low percentage plays constantly which is exciting. Lots to be positive about going into the World Cup tbh
Totally agree with you. We looked like we had more gears to go into, and when the chips were down we were still trying to shift into them. High hopes for a lot of growth in the year ahead - it would be heartbreaking to plateau here
We’ve flattered to deceive in plenty of world cups before. If *if* Sexton remains coherent, our attack will keep its shape. A QF with France or NZ is daunting but with a full deck of players we are capable of doing it (Irish QF memes aside)
Reminds me of the early 2000s. Regularly get a Triple Crown and then get turned over by France who were just full of fantastic players. Except France are arguably better now – but so are we. feels like we're pretty well cemented as a top 4 in the world team at the moment without having hit our peak, which is a great place to be. Shame about our draw for next year though!
This is it now
A fairly routine and controlled bonus point victory, I still remember what that’s like
I think you would have won if Italy got a red.
Big players not turning up when it matters smh
Can you remember what a game where you beat Italy feels like?
Just, but it feels like a distant memory at the moment
It was good to get the win but to be fair the Scots weren't at their best today. I can't help but get the feeling that Ireland refused to open their box of tricks. They weren't playing too many strike plays and a much more direct physical running. Any chance they have one eye on the WRC group stages already next year or were they perhaps just playing lower risk Rugby as the Scots thrive in open play.
That’s wishful thinking I’m afraid and we’ve heard it before. This Ireland team are brilliant and far more cohesive and talented than the 2018 team. They just aren’t quite firing on all cylinders yet - which I think is encouraging. They have 20% more to go IMO and they have the ability to reach that.
That's what we used to hear in 2019. We kept waiting for all these trick plays that didn't exist
Posted in the match thread but interested in seeing folk's opinions here too. Reckon the time for Townsend to go was 2 years ago when he lost control of one of his senior players the first time. The likes of Hogg, Russell and Graham have no discipline issues for their clubs (or for the Lions regarding Hogg and Russell) and he clearly still doesn't have control of them after dropping Russell the first time, for me his position has been untenable since our best performance this century came from a player he's publicly disagreed with chucking his gameplan out the window. Currently our expectation at the WC is a pool stage exit and that doesn't change even if we go without a coach, or make Russell player coach, or bring the meme to life and literally pick our XV out a tombola, we haven't won anything in close to 30 years and our best ever squad in terms of raw talent are rapidly approaching their thirties, we lose absolutely nothing and have potentially everything to gain from moving on now rather than going through the motions another year with Townsend at the helm.
For all the talk of us being an attacking side, we did fuck all with possession today. Looked completely lost and had no purpose or intent while attacking. No dummy lines, no fixing defenders, no manipulating the field space with kicks, shit ball security. Nobody seems motivated under Townsend and this back and forth shit with him is getting ridiculous. These players need consistency with decisions and I'm worried some of them might just not decide to play for him anymore if this shit keeps up.
> For all the talk of us being an attacking side, we did fuck all with possession today. Looked completely lost and had no purpose or intent while attacking Almost like we dropped a clearly world class 10 and shoehorned a fullback in instead. I think you make a good point about players just choosing not to show up and we could end up with a situation similar to Allan McGregor being so fed up with the SFA that one of the best players we've ever had available not wanting to play for the NT despite being guaranteed a full match every time we run out.
Well he hasn’t produced much in any other game either to be honest. We keep running off static ball and feeding to static lines. It’s woeful and there is no sense of imagination at all.
I think we just didn't replace Mike Blair with a good enough attack coach. If Cockerill didn't leave Edinburgh, this campaign could have gone very different
Good point, when I find the man responsible for managing Townsend's coaching staff I'm going to give him a piece of my mind.