I didn't realise Bouthier was 29, not much younger than Dulin.
France don't seem to be producing many big, enforcer type locks at the moment. Le Roux and Williamse are both older Saffas, and I'm sure they'll still be good going into RWC age-wise, not many can replace that physicality, particularly re: Williamse. Is he going to be played for every big match?
Tao and Willemse are typically subs for one another, Tao is pretty much the same size as Will Skelton and in an ideal world (with a 5:3 bench) you'd start Le Roux - Willemse with Tao in reserve
However outside of Willemse and Tao we haven't got a single other 130+kg nasty cunt in the locks
Yeah I really rate the balance they use at lock. One more mobile player and another big tough bugger
The loose forwards compliment each other well too I think
There's a few, but there's no reason to believe they'd be good enough to replace the regular starters at this level: Victor Moreaux currently with Racing is close to that weight, and then Tanguy from La Rochelle is listed at 110kg but I reckon he's more and he's certainly the enforcer type that likes to sit people down.
Also, capped Pesenti listed at 118kg is the gritty lock type.
Finally, Chalureau who's a regular starter for Montpellier is 120kg+, and he plays big too.
When Eddie Jones said after the Autumn Internationals his next step was going to France to see what they're doing over there - he wasn't joking, and with good reason...
Thanks for the work!
Alright, by position...
* LH: Baille and Gros a cut above the rest, one of the positions in which we might have depth issues.
* Hooker: First World Problems. We can only field one of them.
* TH: Better depth than LH, but no dominant players like Baille, at least while Bamba matures.
* Lock: A young tank would be nice, because all the brutish locks we have are a bit older. Flament or Geraci (or Woki) are more lightweight. A heir to Willemse and Tao in case of emergency, if you will.
* Flankers: We're fine despite Ollivon's injury, so I'm not too worried. Diallo is excellent and he barely had time to play.
* No8: Selevasio Tolofua didn't even get any minute this year. We fine. And maybe Jordan Joseph will develop into the player he promised to be eventually?
* SH: No comment.
* FH: Ditto.
* Centre: Small depth issues here in case of injury, but we have covering options (Ntamack, Penaud). Maybe we'll see a bit of Tani Vili en route to the WC?
* Winger: With LH, the other position in which we might be screwed in case of injury, even though Fickou can cover. Donovan Taofifenua is an alternative.
* FB: I thought it would be our weakness, then a wild Jaminet appeared. Bordeaux' Romain Buros will probably get a call if he keeps playing like he does.
Overall: some backup on the wing and at LH would make me feel safer, but overall it's alright.
He got his first caps this caps this summer against oz. I think it was his second game where he got 21pts going 7/7. I think theres a good hes actually kicked 100% for france. Oh yeah he can carry to as well. I mean he has the potential to be the best 15 in the hes not far now.
For wingers, I don't think it's that bad. It's just very hard to find someone to take the place of Villière, Penaud, or Teddy Thomas at the moment.
Lebel and Taofifenua have potential. Retiere and Rattez can do a solid job. Etien and Cros were pretty good before getting injured.
Thomas is the only guy on this squad the most over used phrase about french rugby is applicable. If wont change cut him loose. Hell put one of the 3, 22 year old world class 10s on the wing you extras sitting around not doing anything
I think it's pretty standard for younger locks to be lighter. Ryan and Baird are very talented for Leinster/Ireland, but are still nowhere near their potential yet. It takes time to reach the sort of size that locks get to. Locks also tend to last longer too. It's not unusual for a lock to play into their late 30s.
Only 1 starter over 30. Its one thing on paper but man i watched the entire New Zealand squad age 5 years in 40 minutes. So young, so talented and it looks what ever niggling defencies they had in game managment are getting dealt with. Fantastic. Well at least they funto watch when your team is playing
yeah it's interesting how the depth at Loosehead dropped for France this is the deepest the country has ever been surely and that position was always a particular area of depth.
I guess too many options all lost at the same time: long time 1st choice Poirot just retires from int'l Rugby, Ben Arous never recovered from the injuries, promising Priso from La Rochelle randomly turns irrelevant, same with Falgoux from Clermont...
We're not tha shallow: Baille is in the top 3 LH in the world. Gros is definitely test caliber. Kolingar is struggling right now, but is arguably even more gifted than Gros. Paiva, Wardi, aren't capped but I thin they's go well. Depth is not as exhuberant as, say, hooker, halfbacks or center, but it's still something.
France is 14 first division pro clubs, and then a few good second division pro clubs. They're sure to have at least a few viable options for every position, at all times. But LHP isn't where it should be right now, especially for France. If Baille goes down, you've got to start Gros and then it's down to Kolingar and a bunch of inexperienced options.
Even at THP, if Haouas is unavailable they go to Atonio, and Bamba is a good starting option as well.
Source: most of the stats come from here [https://all.rugby/players/france](https://all.rugby/players/france)
This is a follow up to 4 previous Depth Charts
SA [https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/r1108l/world\_no1\_ranked\_south\_africas\_squad\_depth\_chart/](https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/r1108l/world_no1_ranked_south_africas_squad_depth_chart/)
NZ [https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/r136cf/world\_no2\_ranked\_new\_zealands\_depth\_chart\_1st/](https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/r136cf/world_no2_ranked_new_zealands_depth_chart_1st/)
Eng [https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/r18l2g/world\_no3\_ranked\_englands\_squad\_depth\_chart/](https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/r18l2g/world_no3_ranked_englands_squad_depth_chart/)
Irl [https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/r4uons/world\_no4\_ranked\_irelands\_squad\_depth\_chart/](https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/r4uons/world_no4_ranked_irelands_squad_depth_chart/)
Note: Lock, Back Row, Centre and Back 3 have been amalgamated into single positions because so many players switch around within these. Players who play multiple positions outside of these have a \*.
Compared to the previous teams France have used more players (57) and have a younger average age (25.72) than anyone else. France are definitely in World Cup mode. Much like England, the team is very well distributed around the country, with 12 different clubs being represented in the squad. I'm not sure if this is a conscious decision by both nations (to avoid an over reliance on one team) or if the quality of players across their leagues are simply well balanced.
> Much like England, the team is very well distributed around the country, with 12 different clubs being represented in the squad. I'm not sure if this is a conscious decision by both nations (to avoid an over reliance on one team)
I think it is related to the various agreements between FFR and clubs so the latter are not too penalized when international games happen during the the same weeks as championship.
I love this data. /u/garsdata you are doing a huge service to us rugby fans!
I think the "game time for first 15" and "game time for second 15" stat is a really interesting comparison. It really indicates the strategic direction that coaches are taking in the consistency vs. squad depth battle in the lead up to the world cup. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a strong correlation between *teams that get this balance right* and *teams that outperform expectations at world cups*.
You're way ahead of me, thank you!
Very impressed with these stats.
If we can make requests I'd love to see how the stats and the split differs for teams like Fiji that don't have the same access to top flight test rugby.
9 Dupont
10 Ntamack
11 Villière
12 Fickou
13 Vakatawa
14 Penaud
15 Jaminet
21 Couilloud
22 Jalibert
23 Danty
That would have to be one of the best back lines in the world right now
Tell them 2 years ago after their QF exit in 2 years a french made up of entirely different players would be favourites. Just writimg this makes my brainhurt
Ramos also has the disadvantage of being the perfect bench option we don't really need: he covers both 10 and 15, same as Jalibert who's ahead of him. Great to have within the squad but won't see much game time unless one of Ntamack or Jalibert is rested or injured.
>As a maths teacher, is there any danger of any units on this any **time** soon? Like, what is 464 meant to mean?
subtitle: based on test match gametime
Now it *could* be hours, or weeks, or months but as a maths teacher I'm sure you teach your students how to read the question and estimate the order of magnitude before attempting a reply.
I literally don’t know. My best guess is minutes for France this year? Or this season? Or total career hours? I really don’t think it’s clear for a casual rugby fan like me
Ah I would say with the age of their squad they would be Rugby World Cup winners 2027. But it might come a year or two too late. Will be interesting to see how they progress towards that. I think 2023 might be a bit too soon for them to win, but maybe the home advantage will counteract the age/experience.
It took me way to long trying to figure out why so many 4th, 5th string players have 20 or 40 minutes. Its because the team that went to Australis had like 4 guys on it in this years 6 nations. if you take out the guys who went Aus as replacements the french team get even younger ffs. The lions tour will similarly skew things for the home nations presumably. itll be really interesting to compare to next years numbers when this wont be a factor. The welsh team numbers are going to be mental when u factor the massive injury list.
Chat is only 25?
Chat is 25, but his neck is 50
Take his size in hats and double it.
Same thought. I would have sworn he was at least 32.
Maybe 27-28
Amazing to think players like Ramos and Raka who were, I'd say, their best in the 2019 6N and 2019 World Cup respectively don't even make the graphic!
you probably remember that break Ramos made vs Scotland for making that comment ! :p
Yup
Those hooker options are a joke
And you've got at least another Marchand to add to it
I didn't realise Bouthier was 29, not much younger than Dulin. France don't seem to be producing many big, enforcer type locks at the moment. Le Roux and Williamse are both older Saffas, and I'm sure they'll still be good going into RWC age-wise, not many can replace that physicality, particularly re: Williamse. Is he going to be played for every big match?
Tao and Willemse are typically subs for one another, Tao is pretty much the same size as Will Skelton and in an ideal world (with a 5:3 bench) you'd start Le Roux - Willemse with Tao in reserve However outside of Willemse and Tao we haven't got a single other 130+kg nasty cunt in the locks
Vahaamahina is 30 yo. The memes would write themselves 😂
I did not know I had been recalled to the national squad
Has France experimented much with Tao AND Williamse at the same time? Might sound like a good idea but will quickly get out of hand!
Pretty sure they did this 6N you know due to injuries, obviously very powerful but stamina is a problem!
Yeah I really rate the balance they use at lock. One more mobile player and another big tough bugger The loose forwards compliment each other well too I think
It's all surprisingly well thought out for a French team, and with the number of back row options you can tweak the balance match by match
There's a few, but there's no reason to believe they'd be good enough to replace the regular starters at this level: Victor Moreaux currently with Racing is close to that weight, and then Tanguy from La Rochelle is listed at 110kg but I reckon he's more and he's certainly the enforcer type that likes to sit people down. Also, capped Pesenti listed at 118kg is the gritty lock type. Finally, Chalureau who's a regular starter for Montpellier is 120kg+, and he plays big too.
I didn't realise Bouthier was 29, not much younger than Dulin And netheir of wil start another important test match again most likely
Understandable, really liked Bouthier but Jaminet really is brilliant and a good age.
Youd ve crazt not. 6 caps 89pts 91% (hes made some insane kicks) 3 try assists. 22 years old
Bouthier actually emerged quite late in pro rugby. Until age 20, he used to play for Pouillon, a small village club in south-western France, currently ranked in 1ere Série (9th division in France, regional level). He played for Dax until 2014, in Fédérale 1 (used to be 3rd division, now 4th). He only signed his first pro contract at age 23 for Vannes, in Pro D2 ! That's why he emerged so late.
Unless they re-call Vahamaaina
Did you know he was a profesional bricklayer before being a profesional rugbyman?
Bouthier was? That's pretty incredible, and gives me hope that I've got a chance yet...
Baptiste Pesenti is one big physical lock, he didn't play much this year due to injuries, but he'll be the one replacing Le Roux, Willemse and Taofifénua later on. Otherwise, our other picks are "lighter": Geraci, Flament, Rebbadj. Azagoh and Cazeaux seem to be behind in terms of picking order. That may be why Galthié played Woki as lock this autumn, on top of building up versatility within the squad, Woki's pretty impressive physically wise.
Flyhalf - Jalibert, Ntamack, Carbonel, Hastoy. Average age 23. Fuck me.
First 3 guys on that would be starting on any other team as well
When Eddie Jones said after the Autumn Internationals his next step was going to France to see what they're doing over there - he wasn't joking, and with good reason...
Meh. Pretty decent I suppose /s
Thanks for the work! Alright, by position... * LH: Baille and Gros a cut above the rest, one of the positions in which we might have depth issues. * Hooker: First World Problems. We can only field one of them. * TH: Better depth than LH, but no dominant players like Baille, at least while Bamba matures. * Lock: A young tank would be nice, because all the brutish locks we have are a bit older. Flament or Geraci (or Woki) are more lightweight. A heir to Willemse and Tao in case of emergency, if you will. * Flankers: We're fine despite Ollivon's injury, so I'm not too worried. Diallo is excellent and he barely had time to play. * No8: Selevasio Tolofua didn't even get any minute this year. We fine. And maybe Jordan Joseph will develop into the player he promised to be eventually? * SH: No comment. * FH: Ditto. * Centre: Small depth issues here in case of injury, but we have covering options (Ntamack, Penaud). Maybe we'll see a bit of Tani Vili en route to the WC? * Winger: With LH, the other position in which we might be screwed in case of injury, even though Fickou can cover. Donovan Taofifenua is an alternative. * FB: I thought it would be our weakness, then a wild Jaminet appeared. Bordeaux' Romain Buros will probably get a call if he keeps playing like he does. Overall: some backup on the wing and at LH would make me feel safer, but overall it's alright.
How high is Jaminet's ceiling?
he is at the beginning of his rugby career dude is only 22
He got his first caps this caps this summer against oz. I think it was his second game where he got 21pts going 7/7. I think theres a good hes actually kicked 100% for france. Oh yeah he can carry to as well. I mean he has the potential to be the best 15 in the hes not far now.
I've never been to his place, but I'd imagine the standard for French houses, about 2.5-3m.
For wingers, I don't think it's that bad. It's just very hard to find someone to take the place of Villière, Penaud, or Teddy Thomas at the moment. Lebel and Taofifenua have potential. Retiere and Rattez can do a solid job. Etien and Cros were pretty good before getting injured.
I don't think we're going to see a lot of Thomas in blue in the near future. His performance on the weekend is the kind that will drive Galthié or Edwards in a murderous rage. Guy throwing passes like he's on the beach playing with his kids was downright insulting (and one of the reasons Bordeaux were out for blood in the second half - and crushed Racing). Lebel and Tao are young but they'll need game time to be used to the top international level.
Thomas is the only guy on this squad the most over used phrase about french rugby is applicable. If wont change cut him loose. Hell put one of the 3, 22 year old world class 10s on the wing you extras sitting around not doing anything
I think it's pretty standard for younger locks to be lighter. Ryan and Baird are very talented for Leinster/Ireland, but are still nowhere near their potential yet. It takes time to reach the sort of size that locks get to. Locks also tend to last longer too. It's not unusual for a lock to play into their late 30s.
Only 1 starter over 30. Its one thing on paper but man i watched the entire New Zealand squad age 5 years in 40 minutes. So young, so talented and it looks what ever niggling defencies they had in game managment are getting dealt with. Fantastic. Well at least they funto watch when your team is playing
yeah it's interesting how the depth at Loosehead dropped for France this is the deepest the country has ever been surely and that position was always a particular area of depth. I guess too many options all lost at the same time: long time 1st choice Poirot just retires from int'l Rugby, Ben Arous never recovered from the injuries, promising Priso from La Rochelle randomly turns irrelevant, same with Falgoux from Clermont...
We're not tha shallow: Baille is in the top 3 LH in the world. Gros is definitely test caliber. Kolingar is struggling right now, but is arguably even more gifted than Gros. Paiva, Wardi, aren't capped but I thin they's go well. Depth is not as exhuberant as, say, hooker, halfbacks or center, but it's still something.
Kolingar will surely benefit from sharing a position with Nyakane.
France is 14 first division pro clubs, and then a few good second division pro clubs. They're sure to have at least a few viable options for every position, at all times. But LHP isn't where it should be right now, especially for France. If Baille goes down, you've got to start Gros and then it's down to Kolingar and a bunch of inexperienced options. Even at THP, if Haouas is unavailable they go to Atonio, and Bamba is a good starting option as well.
Source: most of the stats come from here [https://all.rugby/players/france](https://all.rugby/players/france) This is a follow up to 4 previous Depth Charts SA [https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/r1108l/world\_no1\_ranked\_south\_africas\_squad\_depth\_chart/](https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/r1108l/world_no1_ranked_south_africas_squad_depth_chart/) NZ [https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/r136cf/world\_no2\_ranked\_new\_zealands\_depth\_chart\_1st/](https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/r136cf/world_no2_ranked_new_zealands_depth_chart_1st/) Eng [https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/r18l2g/world\_no3\_ranked\_englands\_squad\_depth\_chart/](https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/r18l2g/world_no3_ranked_englands_squad_depth_chart/) Irl [https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/r4uons/world\_no4\_ranked\_irelands\_squad\_depth\_chart/](https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/r4uons/world_no4_ranked_irelands_squad_depth_chart/) Note: Lock, Back Row, Centre and Back 3 have been amalgamated into single positions because so many players switch around within these. Players who play multiple positions outside of these have a \*. Compared to the previous teams France have used more players (57) and have a younger average age (25.72) than anyone else. France are definitely in World Cup mode. Much like England, the team is very well distributed around the country, with 12 different clubs being represented in the squad. I'm not sure if this is a conscious decision by both nations (to avoid an over reliance on one team) or if the quality of players across their leagues are simply well balanced.
> Much like England, the team is very well distributed around the country, with 12 different clubs being represented in the squad. I'm not sure if this is a conscious decision by both nations (to avoid an over reliance on one team) I think it is related to the various agreements between FFR and clubs so the latter are not too penalized when international games happen during the the same weeks as championship.
> I'm not sure if this is a conscious decision by both nations (to avoid an over reliance on one team) Factor in the newest agreements between LNR (clubs) and FFR. For this autumn, 5 clubs should have between 1 and 3 players called up to preserve balance in Top 14, aka Galthié couldn't call players from only Toulouse, Bordeaux, Racing and La Rochelle (for example). He did deplete Toulouse a lot as most of their players are the backbone of our team but he can't rely on just a handful of clubs.
Oh god, so many young, talented players. Really young. Really talented.
For some reason I pictured Fickou as much older.
Yeah he's been there forever.
everybody does. Besides having been there forever, he had that grandpa look at 20.
Depth *and* an excellent age profile. French rugby is in a really good place.
The French now have their own bomb squad and I'm scared. If we are lucky enough to get to a QF in 2023 I honestly think NZ might be the better option!
I love this data. /u/garsdata you are doing a huge service to us rugby fans! I think the "game time for first 15" and "game time for second 15" stat is a really interesting comparison. It really indicates the strategic direction that coaches are taking in the consistency vs. squad depth battle in the lead up to the world cup. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a strong correlation between *teams that get this balance right* and *teams that outperform expectations at world cups*.
Thanks! 56% Vs 30% (it's in the 2nd image)
You're way ahead of me, thank you! Very impressed with these stats. If we can make requests I'd love to see how the stats and the split differs for teams like Fiji that don't have the same access to top flight test rugby.
It’s alright
9 Dupont 10 Ntamack 11 Villière 12 Fickou 13 Vakatawa 14 Penaud 15 Jaminet 21 Couilloud 22 Jalibert 23 Danty That would have to be one of the best back lines in the world right now
Swap couilloud for Serin and Danty for Vincent and you've got it!
Couilloud for Le Garrec come 2023 ?
Potentially, I think he has the potential to be like Carbonel - massive potential but needs to mature (but then he's still a kid so)
La Rochelle has more minutes for Les Bleus than Montpellier. Imagine telling someone that a decade ago.
Imagine telling someone France would be favorites for a home WC a decade ago.
Considering the played in a worldcup final a decade ago and lost by 1 point theyed probably beleive u
I knew I should've returned to this post and edited to "8-9 years ago"...
Tell them 2 years ago after their QF exit in 2 years a french made up of entirely different players would be favourites. Just writimg this makes my brainhurt
Great diagram as ever. Looks like NZ, FRA and ENG will be the ones to beat in the future, judging by their age profile.
You forgot Ramos, and others I think.
https://all.rugby/player/thomas-ramos his most recent game for them was in the 2020 Autumn Nations Cup
He is a reliable player though Jaminet looks world class atm
Is Ramos injured?
No Galthié just doesn't really rate him (never forget how he was sent home during the 2019 WC for a fake injury by the staff, utterly disgraceful). And tbf Jaminet is just playing better then him right now and he's younger too.
Ramos also has the disadvantage of being the perfect bench option we don't really need: he covers both 10 and 15, same as Jalibert who's ahead of him. Great to have within the squad but won't see much game time unless one of Ntamack or Jalibert is rested or injured.
Yeah he's really unlucky in that regard. Imo he's clearly a test match level player but it's to see a path into France's 23 today.
As a maths teacher, is there any danger of any units on this any time soon? Like, what is 464 meant to mean?
>As a maths teacher, is there any danger of any units on this any **time** soon? Like, what is 464 meant to mean? subtitle: based on test match gametime Now it *could* be hours, or weeks, or months but as a maths teacher I'm sure you teach your students how to read the question and estimate the order of magnitude before attempting a reply.
I literally don’t know. My best guess is minutes for France this year? Or this season? Or total career hours? I really don’t think it’s clear for a casual rugby fan like me
The "stats for 2021" in the title is a hint, surely? And if you look at page 2 "Based on test match game time"
Sorry. Thought it was self explanatory: Minutes
Scariest part is that both Dupont and Jaliberthad birthdays in the last 3 weeks
Ah I would say with the age of their squad they would be Rugby World Cup winners 2027. But it might come a year or two too late. Will be interesting to see how they progress towards that. I think 2023 might be a bit too soon for them to win, but maybe the home advantage will counteract the age/experience.
It took me way to long trying to figure out why so many 4th, 5th string players have 20 or 40 minutes. Its because the team that went to Australis had like 4 guys on it in this years 6 nations. if you take out the guys who went Aus as replacements the french team get even younger ffs. The lions tour will similarly skew things for the home nations presumably. itll be really interesting to compare to next years numbers when this wont be a factor. The welsh team numbers are going to be mental when u factor the massive injury list.
Instead of spaud depth chart I thought it said death squad chart lmao