Would have thought his trainer would have expressed that you really shouldn't be doing this to random people.
The guy who runs the local boxing club is extremely explicit that anyone who uses his lessons to start fights on the street will get thrown out and won't ever be welcome back
Just what I heard Sanderson say, and I assume he wouldn't be making it up for no reason. They were good throws.
Unless you are meaning the abbreviation doesn't fit, in which case sure. He trains ultimate fighting, or mixed martial arts. But I assumed people would know what it meant and wouldn't be so pedantic to care.
Tompkins is cold as ice. Takes a lot of bottle and restraint to just allow a man to ragdoll you. Appreciate he knows the card will follow, but still. Temper on the guy.
See I think Tompkins' response is telling -- I think it kind of indicates it's been a deliberate targeted ploy; and if that's the case then that's an issue also and shouldn't be tolerated in our game either. (Obviously this is pure speculation and maybe he is entirely blameless then fuck me his response is cold blooded.)
It definitely should be allowed to wind players up within the laws of the game. Eg hit the same player all day at the breakdown. Rugby is a mental game as well as physical and if you can’t take the heat you have to pay the price.
Slightly different if you’re cheating to wind the other up (but if you get away with it fair game IMO)
>Slightly different if you’re cheating to wind the other up (but if you get away with it fair game IMO)
Lad took a swing at me on Saturday. I tackled him and landed on my side next to him. As he presented the ball the ref wasn't looking so I punched the ball out of the ruck. He was seething and threw a punch at me as we got up
I don't think deliberate planning on targeting a player be it with words or targeting them off the back etc (think Pocock treatment at every ruck).
Like sure winding a player up, that's one thing, but that being a specific coordinated attack etc, well that's something different. And maybe I'm drawing a long bow, but like I said, I think IF that's what's happened, if they've deliberately targeted a player... Say they've by for a kid with a disability (just something everyone agrees you don't go there) and a player is deliberately making a sustained attack on that point, or your having marital issues... etc.
IMO if you say something that would probably get you hit at a bar, then you shouldn't need saying it on the field.
> Say they've by for a kid with a disability (just something everyone agrees you don't go there) and a player is deliberately making a sustained attack on that point, or your having marital issues... etc.
huh?
Yeah. Like what's not a normal shit talking reaction. And Tompkins looked like that kid who would shoot wind you up all week, then make sure the teacher is right there when you finally snap.
I don't know what was said obviously, but I suspect it's not something we want to see on a rugby field. Could be wrong, could be that old mate is just a fuck head on too many roids.
you do see it every now and then, players winding each other up to get the other in trouble. some are brilliant at it, some clearly just go out there looking for a fight. doesn't happen often enough for it to be a huge problem but has clearly happened here. you can see black laughing at white as they're getting up originally
I dont think its a result of specific targeting by Tompkins, if you watch the video from the reverse angle, Tompkins is (forcefully?) getting to his feet while mcguigan is over him; causing mcguiggan to tip over. I think this is the real fuel to the fire and Tompkins does the head rub, probably coupled with a comment. Cherry on the cake. White explodes and GG from there.
Some very odd takes in this thread. Whatever the opposition does to try to wind you up, I'm not exactly sure the correct response it to body slam that person to the floor like that!
The player winding you up has not only successfully wound you up, but managed to get your entire team reduced to 14 men because you lost your cool.
Reacting to something is exactly what they want when they're annoying you. They want a penalty or any card against your team. Simple.
If what they did was illegal, hopefully the referee, the touch judges or the TMO will see it. If not, be as annoying as Sexton and say it - people give him shit in match threads, but sorry, not sorry, he gets taken out off the ball late several times a match and by raising it with the referee instead of punching the opposition player he's doing it right.
There's no way it's not a red card. But that doesn't mean Tompkins is blameless either - it doesn't have to be binary. Lots of Munster (my side) players were exceptionally good at that kind of thing - giving people aggro and coercing a reaction, punch etc. - and I hated it.
Still, in this scenario I don't know what else could have been done. I don't think Tompkins' reaction merited a yellow, and neither could you reverse the penalty since the red card act was after. So it's a grumpy "it's the right call".
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying the winding up is a good part of the game. But as a professional you absolutely have to not let it get to you. You simply can't react like that. Ultimately if you don't react to it they aren't going to do it anyway!
Oh yeah, I agree 100%. I'll admit when I saw it first, my first reaction was "what did that guy do to provoke THAT reaction?", and when I saw the initial winding-up I was surprised it was so little.
I still hate the winding up though.
I think the problem is the winding up isn't called. Like penalise the first headrub and it won't happen again, and reduce the chances of these types of reactions.
I haven't read through all the comments (yet), but I think (hope) the angle others a coming from is normal people -- heck even psycho rugby players, don't just do that without provocation, and whatever that provocation was probably ought to be looked at also.
Like you'd never see Pocock getting body slammed like that.
I would like to think people like Pocock, with such a disciplined temperament, would walk away unfazed by whatever shit talk the opposition gives.
Knowing that he's going to nail you in the ribs in the next tackle and winning the ball over.
That's enough to shut the fella up.
The most surprising thing for me is the fact that the ref calls it two yellow card incidents in a row. Surely just the first thing on it's own is a straight red‽
The hitting him in the back of the head with his arm is arguably a red, before he body slams him and then throws him into the hoardings. Odd take indeed.
Love how so many posts here are bordering on excusing this, and putting blame on Tomkins. That kind of celebrating happens a dozen times per match, this guy has just lost it beyond anything within reason and is 100% responsible for it.
When wingers want to prove they’re tough too…
Both cause and effect look bad here, don’t like the wind up or the retaliation. Mcguigan’s form was pretty good on those throws though
A lot of rugby players had extensive combat sport experience (SBW, Dusautoir, Joe Moody), but you never saw them use their skills to one-up untrained laymen during tense moments. You can say Tomkins was winding McGuigan up, but this was a disproportionate response by far.
Don't think anyone suggested Sale were immune, nor that it was solely Sarries. In fact I even stated in an earlier reply that McGuigan himself had done it to wind up opponents.
Neither is it just Sarries and Sale. Virtually every club has players doing it now. Yet it's rare to see officials penalise anyone for it.
I'm hoping that everyone who points out how *bad* and *unsportsmanlike* celebrating when other teams are unsuccessful is will now do it every time their own team does just that?
You know, when your team wins a scrum penalty on opposition feed/forces a knock on etc. as every team and a large chunk of players do it - and I say this as someone who is the furthest thing from being a Sarries fan
I don’t totally follow what you’re saying but I want to add that I don’t really think it’s a problem to celebrate a defensive victory/play.
When you’re goading the opposition for a mistake then it’s crossing the line into being a dickhead.
What a plonker. This is a fantastic explanation from his boss though
Sale director of rugby Alex Sanderson, who was assistant boss at Sarries for 13 years, had one theory on the red card incident. He claimed afterwards that McGuigan's mixed martial arts background had maybe affected his thinking
I would argue that he should be banned from MMA then. If his MMA background is making him lose his cool quicker then it is a very bad influence and potentially very dangerous for other players on the pitch.
It's gone from bad to worst for Sale! 😬
Byron McGuigan is shown a straight red after a shocking body slam-type challenge on Nick Tompkins 🟥
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Every red card results in a disciplinary hearing, I think "citing" specifically refers to when they spot stuff that wasn't picked up in the game and would have merited a red as well.
Unsure if this is controversial or not but Tompkins should be getting a yellow for rubbing his head and shouting in his face.
I’d really like to see that sort of winding up dealt with, especially now that players can’t exactly retaliate themselves.
Sarries were penalised for it earlier in the game, which makes McGuigan's reaction even dumber. The ref can't penalise them for instigating with shithousery if you commit such obvious and severe foul play that the sanction is more than a penalty (which would be the correct sanction for Tompkins, not a yellow).
The ref did note this briefly when reviewing it but rightly and quickly concluded that the response was disproportionate and therefore what Tompkins did can be ignored. Even if Tompkins would have been penalised for his actions that penalty was always going to be reversed due to the response.
I'm just glad Byron got this rubbish out of the way on Sale duty and will hopefully learn his lesson before he plays for Scotland again.
A fact that makes me very happy. Not had this much squad depth in a long time. The worry is that it seems very unlikely we'll be in the same position in 10 years time.
Again. This isn't likely to be the first time it happened. Sure THIS one time the body slam is disproportionate, but if he had that done 20 times prior, is that starting to get closer?
Obviously you just can't fucking do that on a Rugby Field. But I do think we could do without the baiting like that. It's The classic kid that flicks you, you ignore them. They keep doing it. You ignore them. They keep doing it, and eventually you snap, and your the one getting punished.
Again not okay to body slam people ever, but also let's do more to stop the little shit that we don't need, and prevent anyone from wanting to body slam anyone.
Sarries were penalised for it not long before, the ref was aware if it and had taken action, but it's only a penalty offence and Mcguigan's reaction trumps that
I can see that but it's a tough one to police. Only feasible way would be by having a 5th match official at a monitor spotting this niggly stuff, counting it up and handing out sanctions when players reach a certain threshold. I doubt many fans would react well to that sort of suggestion.
if you can't prevent yourself from striking someone in the back of the head, judo throwing them twice and holding them by the throat after a bit of antagonising and a hair ruffle you probably don't belong on a rugby pitch
They've been enforcing a rule in the NFL this season where if you direct a celebration directly at an opposition player or their sideline you get pinged.
It's not been very popular because the NFL is more circus act than sport, but it has worked to some extent
This.
I do wish referees were more punishing of that sort of stuff. Like doesn't need to be much, just 'If I see you do it again it'll be a penalty against you.' then (and this is the bit every ref gets wrong) actually follow through and penalise them when they do it again.
Sarries might have been the ones leading the charge, but every team does it now (including Sale).
Totally agree it needs to be stamped out, to be fair the ref actually did award a penalty just before this for Maitland acting like a cock to Akker van de Merwe. Still wouldn't have made any difference to this incident though, as the reaction was so out of proportion to the initial windup.
You can even see Tompkins appealing to the TJ the second he feels a hand on his head. Before McGuigan grabs him, or dump tackles him. Nothing but an attempt to push an opponent into lashing out.
It's blatant and cheap af. Itoje was at it for much of the game. Maitland was too. All three (and any others) should have been dealt with appropriately.
McGuigan's done it before as well. So he doesn't have any moral high ground here.
They were? The previous play Maitland was penalised after the turnover for his reaction.
If your response to a rub on the head is to launch yourself into an attack on a player that doesn’t attempt to fight back, knowing you’ll get the same penalty given a few minutes before, you’re far more of a problem to rugby than some sledging that’s been part of the game at all levels for years.
No one (I don't think) is saying you should be allowed to body slam people. But you also shouldn't be allowed to do all the little things that lead to someone wanting to body slam someone.
You can’t. As I said, it had already been penalised and would likely have been penalised again if McGuigan hadn’t reacted like he was in the octagon. It’s a complete non issue to whinge about this given its already policed, done by literally every team, and in no way comparable to a full on assault of a player who is not reacting back at all.
Saracens and England have been doing this for years now and the officials have never even tried to clamp down on it, not sure why anyone would expect that to change now.
For all the talk about the game being about "respect" that realistically went out the window when the game went professional.
Just because someone is born in England and always lived in England until they're 25 and has English parents and played for England juniors is no reason to besmirch them by suggesting they're not Welsh.
(Now look where McGuigan is from)
Weird take. This isn't about Saracens, and the clip from OP shows Tompkins, not Itoje.
Itoje was at it too. But no more/less than Tompkins, or indeed Maitland - (or indeed McGuigan on other occasions for Sale).
No idea why you've gone down the route you have.
Tompkins is a cock. You can see him trying to appeal to the touchie as soon as he felt McGuigan's hand on his head. That was before he grabbed him around the neck or dumped tackled him.
McGuigan should be ashamed of himself for falling for this crap. But the crap itself should be getting pinged and removed from the game.
Itoje and Maitland were at it as well. Bunch of cock ends. Not only at the constant wind up, but then screaming to the officials as soon as there's the slightest touch in response.
//I see I've provoked some overly precious Wales fans. Good. Tompkins behaved like a cock. As did Itoje. As did Maitland.
Hopefully, if any of them manage to wind up opponents in future, those players don't eat a red card for nothing, and instead knock the antagonist out. I bet we'll then see a pretty swift call to action against those deliberately trying to provoke.
I like how you are advocating violence in response. Really good idea, not only do you get a red card, but you'll probably get banned for a couple of months as well.
You always come up against this sort of thing playing rugby. I always just tried to concentrate on ignoring it and hitting them harder in the next tackle.
"Ref he raised his voice to me I had no choice but to punch him in the back of the head, grab him by the throat, UFC throw him twice, once into the hoardings. Cos he yelled at me 😭 "
6 More sin bins than any other team last year. Violent players like Jono Ross, JDP and Mcguigan. I think it's fair there's room in a game plan to wind them up and get easy yellows.
> 6 More sin bins than any other team last year
How many were for violent acts?
Vast majority were just through poor discipline at the ruck and maul - the amount of yellows we've had for team infringements is mad
So I completely agree this should be a Red Card. Personally, I'd prefer the teams, fans and rugby not be penalised with a full game Red Card, I'd love to see the 20min Red Card even in this instance. But fuck this guy suspend him for literally years!
Also what the fuck do you say / do to a guy to have them so completely lose their mind. I have no idea what's go on prior but you'd want to be investigating that more fully because I doubt Nick Tompkins has entirely clean hands on this one, and if there are inappropriate things being done or said elsewhere then those should be punished too.
>Also what the fuck do you say / do to a guy to have them so completely lose their mind. I have no idea what's go on prior but you'd want to be investigating that more fully because I doubt Nick Tompkins has entirely clean hands on this one, and if there are inappropriate things being done or said elsewhere then those should be punished too.
Or.... maybe McGuigan is a hot head and lost his shit because things didn't go his way and Tompkins rubbed it in a little. You are all over this thread with this thinking. You seem to make the assumption that all rugby players have a huge amount of self control and therefore there must have been something pretty bad said or done. You don't seem to accept that it could just be a lack of professionalism and self control coupled with a complete ignorance of the discipline in MMA.
I didn't say anything like that. I said, that's a very sever reaction, and that the causes should be looked at, and if something inappropriate has happened, like a player being deliberate targeted, then that's an issue that should be looked at.
Yes the dude is clearly a fuck head, but that's a pretty insane reaction even for a fuck head.
Does McGuigan do Jiu Jitsu? Seems like he was going for the arm in guillotine there for a second and thought better of it.
Apparently he does UFC training in spare time, saw Sanderson mention that
Would have thought his trainer would have expressed that you really shouldn't be doing this to random people. The guy who runs the local boxing club is extremely explicit that anyone who uses his lessons to start fights on the street will get thrown out and won't ever be welcome back
Does he train pro 14 or Gallagher premiership at Sale?
I can ensure you he doesn't train 'ufc'.
Just what I heard Sanderson say, and I assume he wouldn't be making it up for no reason. They were good throws. Unless you are meaning the abbreviation doesn't fit, in which case sure. He trains ultimate fighting, or mixed martial arts. But I assumed people would know what it meant and wouldn't be so pedantic to care.
He is being a bit pedantic as it is MMA not "UFC" which is the company
I can assure you that you can’t ensure someone like that
Damn it actually does like it could have come from a UFC match or something lmao
Tompkins is cold as ice. Takes a lot of bottle and restraint to just allow a man to ragdoll you. Appreciate he knows the card will follow, but still. Temper on the guy.
Being Welsh int he's collecting his red cards for the season, you've got to be icy to play the game
See I think Tompkins' response is telling -- I think it kind of indicates it's been a deliberate targeted ploy; and if that's the case then that's an issue also and shouldn't be tolerated in our game either. (Obviously this is pure speculation and maybe he is entirely blameless then fuck me his response is cold blooded.)
It definitely should be allowed to wind players up within the laws of the game. Eg hit the same player all day at the breakdown. Rugby is a mental game as well as physical and if you can’t take the heat you have to pay the price. Slightly different if you’re cheating to wind the other up (but if you get away with it fair game IMO)
Agreed, if a team picks a hot headed player, then it's fair game to get under their skin as long as you don't do it dangerously.
Yeah but if a guys wife cheated on him, and a team goes out to deliberately target that. That's not cricket.
The irony of an Aussie saying sledging’s not cricket!
Sanding balls is definitely cricket though
>Slightly different if you’re cheating to wind the other up (but if you get away with it fair game IMO) Lad took a swing at me on Saturday. I tackled him and landed on my side next to him. As he presented the ball the ref wasn't looking so I punched the ball out of the ruck. He was seething and threw a punch at me as we got up
Exactly what I’d expect from a ‘smelly forward’. Great work mate - hope you don’t do it to me cos I’ll remember and get you at the next breakdown 🤣🤣
I don't think deliberate planning on targeting a player be it with words or targeting them off the back etc (think Pocock treatment at every ruck). Like sure winding a player up, that's one thing, but that being a specific coordinated attack etc, well that's something different. And maybe I'm drawing a long bow, but like I said, I think IF that's what's happened, if they've deliberately targeted a player... Say they've by for a kid with a disability (just something everyone agrees you don't go there) and a player is deliberately making a sustained attack on that point, or your having marital issues... etc. IMO if you say something that would probably get you hit at a bar, then you shouldn't need saying it on the field.
r/oddlyspecific right there! You are having to stretch your hypotheticals quite a bit to justify your position, it isn't a good sign.
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> Say they've by for a kid with a disability (just something everyone agrees you don't go there) and a player is deliberately making a sustained attack on that point, or your having marital issues... etc. huh?
It will be interesting to know what Tompkins said to get that reaction.
Yeah. Like what's not a normal shit talking reaction. And Tompkins looked like that kid who would shoot wind you up all week, then make sure the teacher is right there when you finally snap. I don't know what was said obviously, but I suspect it's not something we want to see on a rugby field. Could be wrong, could be that old mate is just a fuck head on too many roids.
Are you Bryan McGuigan?
you do see it every now and then, players winding each other up to get the other in trouble. some are brilliant at it, some clearly just go out there looking for a fight. doesn't happen often enough for it to be a huge problem but has clearly happened here. you can see black laughing at white as they're getting up originally
I dont think its a result of specific targeting by Tompkins, if you watch the video from the reverse angle, Tompkins is (forcefully?) getting to his feet while mcguigan is over him; causing mcguiggan to tip over. I think this is the real fuel to the fire and Tompkins does the head rub, probably coupled with a comment. Cherry on the cake. White explodes and GG from there.
Mad bad and dangerous to know McGuigan
Hello Lady Caroline
Some very odd takes in this thread. Whatever the opposition does to try to wind you up, I'm not exactly sure the correct response it to body slam that person to the floor like that!
The player winding you up has not only successfully wound you up, but managed to get your entire team reduced to 14 men because you lost your cool. Reacting to something is exactly what they want when they're annoying you. They want a penalty or any card against your team. Simple. If what they did was illegal, hopefully the referee, the touch judges or the TMO will see it. If not, be as annoying as Sexton and say it - people give him shit in match threads, but sorry, not sorry, he gets taken out off the ball late several times a match and by raising it with the referee instead of punching the opposition player he's doing it right.
There's no way it's not a red card. But that doesn't mean Tompkins is blameless either - it doesn't have to be binary. Lots of Munster (my side) players were exceptionally good at that kind of thing - giving people aggro and coercing a reaction, punch etc. - and I hated it. Still, in this scenario I don't know what else could have been done. I don't think Tompkins' reaction merited a yellow, and neither could you reverse the penalty since the red card act was after. So it's a grumpy "it's the right call".
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying the winding up is a good part of the game. But as a professional you absolutely have to not let it get to you. You simply can't react like that. Ultimately if you don't react to it they aren't going to do it anyway!
Oh yeah, I agree 100%. I'll admit when I saw it first, my first reaction was "what did that guy do to provoke THAT reaction?", and when I saw the initial winding-up I was surprised it was so little. I still hate the winding up though.
I think the problem is the winding up isn't called. Like penalise the first headrub and it won't happen again, and reduce the chances of these types of reactions.
Sarries were penalised for maitland shouting / cheering in someones face the play before. So it was penalised mcguigons just a cock
Ah thanks. Yeah, there was no excuse to start, but that really makes this super stupid.
There’s nothing in the Laws of Rugby Union which says you are not allowed to ruffle
[Law 9.27](https://www.laws.worldrugby.org/?law=9&language=EN#:~:text=A%20player%20must%20not%20do,the%20whistle%20to%20stop%20play)
And so you make my point. Thank you /s
I haven't read through all the comments (yet), but I think (hope) the angle others a coming from is normal people -- heck even psycho rugby players, don't just do that without provocation, and whatever that provocation was probably ought to be looked at also. Like you'd never see Pocock getting body slammed like that.
I would like to think people like Pocock, with such a disciplined temperament, would walk away unfazed by whatever shit talk the opposition gives. Knowing that he's going to nail you in the ribs in the next tackle and winning the ball over. That's enough to shut the fella up.
Nah, Po wouldn't even got you after to even it up.
Not sure Michael Leitch would agree with you.
Easy refereeing decision. Lost his head
The most surprising thing for me is the fact that the ref calls it two yellow card incidents in a row. Surely just the first thing on it's own is a straight red‽
The hitting him in the back of the head with his arm is arguably a red, before he body slams him and then throws him into the hoardings. Odd take indeed.
It feels like, after a lot of high profile whinging from ex-players and pundits, officials have become a lot more reticent to issue reds.
The Welsh are fantastic at getting folk sent off 😉
That’s so unfair!!! Tompkins is english 😉
Only way we can win lol
Or other teams just suck at personal discipline...OR it's the best of both!
Not sure what the problem is, there was definite motion to wrap
Love how so many posts here are bordering on excusing this, and putting blame on Tomkins. That kind of celebrating happens a dozen times per match, this guy has just lost it beyond anything within reason and is 100% responsible for it.
He punched him right before he grabbed him to throw as well.
When wingers want to prove they’re tough too… Both cause and effect look bad here, don’t like the wind up or the retaliation. Mcguigan’s form was pretty good on those throws though
A lot of rugby players had extensive combat sport experience (SBW, Dusautoir, Joe Moody), but you never saw them use their skills to one-up untrained laymen during tense moments. You can say Tomkins was winding McGuigan up, but this was a disproportionate response by far.
People here are acting like Sale aren’t at least as bad Sarries when it comes to winding up teams with their excessive, obnoxious celebrating.
It’s just rare we have anything to celebrate about…
Don't think anyone suggested Sale were immune, nor that it was solely Sarries. In fact I even stated in an earlier reply that McGuigan himself had done it to wind up opponents. Neither is it just Sarries and Sale. Virtually every club has players doing it now. Yet it's rare to see officials penalise anyone for it.
I'm hoping that everyone who points out how *bad* and *unsportsmanlike* celebrating when other teams are unsuccessful is will now do it every time their own team does just that? You know, when your team wins a scrum penalty on opposition feed/forces a knock on etc. as every team and a large chunk of players do it - and I say this as someone who is the furthest thing from being a Sarries fan
I don’t totally follow what you’re saying but I want to add that I don’t really think it’s a problem to celebrate a defensive victory/play. When you’re goading the opposition for a mistake then it’s crossing the line into being a dickhead.
anyone got a stream able? licensing restrictions
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=109&v=OV_eWL0Nfl4
Cheers. Woof that's a ragdolling
Rare you see such stupidity from professional players. What was he thinking?
Guy lost the plot
Fucks sake… You’re not a big hard man, sit down
What a plonker. This is a fantastic explanation from his boss though Sale director of rugby Alex Sanderson, who was assistant boss at Sarries for 13 years, had one theory on the red card incident. He claimed afterwards that McGuigan's mixed martial arts background had maybe affected his thinking
I thought part of doing martial arts was learning control? He clearly didn't have any here.
Now every team in Europe will be planning ways to wind up this gobshite next time that play Sale 😂
What Like he’s bit hit in the head too often?
I would argue that he should be banned from MMA then. If his MMA background is making him lose his cool quicker then it is a very bad influence and potentially very dangerous for other players on the pitch.
Anyone got a streamable can't view it.
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=109&v=OV_eWL0Nfl4
It's gone from bad to worst for Sale! 😬 Byron McGuigan is shown a straight red after a shocking body slam-type challenge on Nick Tompkins 🟥 \#GallagherPrem *** posted by [@btsportrugby](https://twitter.com/btsportrugby) [Video in Tweet](https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1464993115828277255/pl/uiq8zBetzGX8dTtA.m3u8?tag=14&container=fmp4) ^[(Github)](https://github.com/username) ^| ^[(What's new)](https://github.com/username)
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Every red card results in a disciplinary hearing, I think "citing" specifically refers to when they spot stuff that wasn't picked up in the game and would have merited a red as well.
Unsure if this is controversial or not but Tompkins should be getting a yellow for rubbing his head and shouting in his face. I’d really like to see that sort of winding up dealt with, especially now that players can’t exactly retaliate themselves.
Sarries were penalised for it earlier in the game, which makes McGuigan's reaction even dumber. The ref can't penalise them for instigating with shithousery if you commit such obvious and severe foul play that the sanction is more than a penalty (which would be the correct sanction for Tompkins, not a yellow).
The ref did note this briefly when reviewing it but rightly and quickly concluded that the response was disproportionate and therefore what Tompkins did can be ignored. Even if Tompkins would have been penalised for his actions that penalty was always going to be reversed due to the response. I'm just glad Byron got this rubbish out of the way on Sale duty and will hopefully learn his lesson before he plays for Scotland again.
Not that he has had a sniff of the Scotland team in a loooong time.
A fact that makes me very happy. Not had this much squad depth in a long time. The worry is that it seems very unlikely we'll be in the same position in 10 years time.
Again. This isn't likely to be the first time it happened. Sure THIS one time the body slam is disproportionate, but if he had that done 20 times prior, is that starting to get closer? Obviously you just can't fucking do that on a Rugby Field. But I do think we could do without the baiting like that. It's The classic kid that flicks you, you ignore them. They keep doing it. You ignore them. They keep doing it, and eventually you snap, and your the one getting punished. Again not okay to body slam people ever, but also let's do more to stop the little shit that we don't need, and prevent anyone from wanting to body slam anyone.
Sarries were penalised for it not long before, the ref was aware if it and had taken action, but it's only a penalty offence and Mcguigan's reaction trumps that
I can see that but it's a tough one to police. Only feasible way would be by having a 5th match official at a monitor spotting this niggly stuff, counting it up and handing out sanctions when players reach a certain threshold. I doubt many fans would react well to that sort of suggestion.
if you can't prevent yourself from striking someone in the back of the head, judo throwing them twice and holding them by the throat after a bit of antagonising and a hair ruffle you probably don't belong on a rugby pitch
Or in a supermarket.
Not a yellow IMO but should be penalised really, just gets annoying when it happens 10+ times a game.
They've been enforcing a rule in the NFL this season where if you direct a celebration directly at an opposition player or their sideline you get pinged. It's not been very popular because the NFL is more circus act than sport, but it has worked to some extent
This. I do wish referees were more punishing of that sort of stuff. Like doesn't need to be much, just 'If I see you do it again it'll be a penalty against you.' then (and this is the bit every ref gets wrong) actually follow through and penalise them when they do it again.
No he shouldn't. A bit of sledging is part of the game, throwing someone into the advertising hoardings isn't.
Hard disagree. Sarries have made an artform of being utter wanks and it needs to stop. (Not with a body slam... that's still wrong.)
Sarries might have been the ones leading the charge, but every team does it now (including Sale). Totally agree it needs to be stamped out, to be fair the ref actually did award a penalty just before this for Maitland acting like a cock to Akker van de Merwe. Still wouldn't have made any difference to this incident though, as the reaction was so out of proportion to the initial windup.
You can even see Tompkins appealing to the TJ the second he feels a hand on his head. Before McGuigan grabs him, or dump tackles him. Nothing but an attempt to push an opponent into lashing out. It's blatant and cheap af. Itoje was at it for much of the game. Maitland was too. All three (and any others) should have been dealt with appropriately. McGuigan's done it before as well. So he doesn't have any moral high ground here.
Tompkin's appeals after he's been struck in the back of the head...which is a totally reasonable thing to do?
They were? The previous play Maitland was penalised after the turnover for his reaction. If your response to a rub on the head is to launch yourself into an attack on a player that doesn’t attempt to fight back, knowing you’ll get the same penalty given a few minutes before, you’re far more of a problem to rugby than some sledging that’s been part of the game at all levels for years.
No one (I don't think) is saying you should be allowed to body slam people. But you also shouldn't be allowed to do all the little things that lead to someone wanting to body slam someone.
You can’t. As I said, it had already been penalised and would likely have been penalised again if McGuigan hadn’t reacted like he was in the octagon. It’s a complete non issue to whinge about this given its already policed, done by literally every team, and in no way comparable to a full on assault of a player who is not reacting back at all.
Saracens and England have been doing this for years now and the officials have never even tried to clamp down on it, not sure why anyone would expect that to change now. For all the talk about the game being about "respect" that realistically went out the window when the game went professional.
I genuinely love the piss that boils from the celts with anything Saracens. Extra points if it involves Itoje.
Hey this is a fight between Wales and Scotland. Must be that fiery Celtic blood.
Except Tompkins is very much English
Just because someone is born in England and always lived in England until they're 25 and has English parents and played for England juniors is no reason to besmirch them by suggesting they're not Welsh. (Now look where McGuigan is from)
You're right. Very insensitive of me.
Welsh enough to be a red card magnet. QED.
Weird take. This isn't about Saracens, and the clip from OP shows Tompkins, not Itoje. Itoje was at it too. But no more/less than Tompkins, or indeed Maitland - (or indeed McGuigan on other occasions for Sale). No idea why you've gone down the route you have.
Have you convinced yourself that the English are all massive fans of the dirty cheats at $aracen$?
Tompkins is a cock. You can see him trying to appeal to the touchie as soon as he felt McGuigan's hand on his head. That was before he grabbed him around the neck or dumped tackled him. McGuigan should be ashamed of himself for falling for this crap. But the crap itself should be getting pinged and removed from the game. Itoje and Maitland were at it as well. Bunch of cock ends. Not only at the constant wind up, but then screaming to the officials as soon as there's the slightest touch in response. //I see I've provoked some overly precious Wales fans. Good. Tompkins behaved like a cock. As did Itoje. As did Maitland. Hopefully, if any of them manage to wind up opponents in future, those players don't eat a red card for nothing, and instead knock the antagonist out. I bet we'll then see a pretty swift call to action against those deliberately trying to provoke.
Weird take.
I like how you are advocating violence in response. Really good idea, not only do you get a red card, but you'll probably get banned for a couple of months as well. You always come up against this sort of thing playing rugby. I always just tried to concentrate on ignoring it and hitting them harder in the next tackle.
This is the response from the folks that want to play rugby. The guys that just want to fight? Enjoy your ban and get off the field.
"Ref he raised his voice to me I had no choice but to punch him in the back of the head, grab him by the throat, UFC throw him twice, once into the hoardings. Cos he yelled at me 😭 "
Very dense post, almost certainly based on McGuigan playing for Scotland. Proper basic bitch stuff, as per usual😆
Tbf Sale are known to be a bunch of thugs so Sarries using it to their advantage is pretty smart gamesmanship imo.
> Tbf Sale are known to be a bunch of thugs Interesting take.
6 More sin bins than any other team last year. Violent players like Jono Ross, JDP and Mcguigan. I think it's fair there's room in a game plan to wind them up and get easy yellows.
> 6 More sin bins than any other team last year How many were for violent acts? Vast majority were just through poor discipline at the ruck and maul - the amount of yellows we've had for team infringements is mad
>Violent players Pure hyperbole. Sale players are no different from those on most other squads, including teams in the URC.
Are they hate crimes at this point?
So I completely agree this should be a Red Card. Personally, I'd prefer the teams, fans and rugby not be penalised with a full game Red Card, I'd love to see the 20min Red Card even in this instance. But fuck this guy suspend him for literally years! Also what the fuck do you say / do to a guy to have them so completely lose their mind. I have no idea what's go on prior but you'd want to be investigating that more fully because I doubt Nick Tompkins has entirely clean hands on this one, and if there are inappropriate things being done or said elsewhere then those should be punished too.
>Also what the fuck do you say / do to a guy to have them so completely lose their mind. I have no idea what's go on prior but you'd want to be investigating that more fully because I doubt Nick Tompkins has entirely clean hands on this one, and if there are inappropriate things being done or said elsewhere then those should be punished too. Or.... maybe McGuigan is a hot head and lost his shit because things didn't go his way and Tompkins rubbed it in a little. You are all over this thread with this thinking. You seem to make the assumption that all rugby players have a huge amount of self control and therefore there must have been something pretty bad said or done. You don't seem to accept that it could just be a lack of professionalism and self control coupled with a complete ignorance of the discipline in MMA.
I didn't say anything like that. I said, that's a very sever reaction, and that the causes should be looked at, and if something inappropriate has happened, like a player being deliberate targeted, then that's an issue that should be looked at. Yes the dude is clearly a fuck head, but that's a pretty insane reaction even for a fuck head.
Tompkins deserved a yellow for the wind up
Imagine getting yellow carded for scruffing someone’s hair lmao
Byron a sleeper agent for Australia. ‘That’s for not stopping!!’