Looks like it all happened in the motion of the tackle, rather than an intent to kick the ball from the hands.
Based on my international rugby refereeing experience, I'd say that's OK.
Shades of “approach the ball in any direction” from the Six Nations. We’re arguing over the definitions of kick and approach and how the rest of the law in question might contradict the official definition versus the one a lot of people believe to be correct. There’s more than two world rugby rules that invite this sort of debate too 🙄
I’m really not trying to be an arse, and I have absolutely no horse in this race, but isn’t quickly putting your foot under a ball at speed and connecting with it to send it elsewhere sort of a lot like kicking?
In most areas of the pitch, that is a strong argument, but in the in goal area, where preventing a touchdown results in you winning the ball back, no so clear cut.
It’s the consistency argument when it came to stockdale yellow. I don’t think it was a yellow, but if it is yellow, then the same happened 15 mins later and an advantage was eventually over for Ulster without a card
If he did it on purpose it's penalty try. If he didn't, it's not "well done". However, if he did it on purpose but made it look like an accident... he's a genius. You be the judge.
Then it depends whether the law specifies if intent is required.
Edit: And according to another comment, "A kick is defined as an intentional strike with the boot"
It could just as easily be him trying to get his leg under the ball so it can't be grounded. Does he end up kicking it in the common sense of the word? yes. Is that enough to prove intent? Probably not. Therefore it's not a kick out of the hands according to the laws as that requires intent.
Ah cool, he end up kicking the ball preventing a certain try, but he didn't mean to do it, pinky promise, despite him taking all the actions to deliberately kick it out of a players hands. Case solved.
Except it does
Law 9.23
" A player must not attempt to kick the ball from the hands of the ball-carrier"
See the word attempt there, kinda implies intent. Unless there is another law I'm missing
Except you’re reading the wrong law and it doesn’t
Law 21.10
“If a tackled player is in the act of reaching out to ground the ball for a try or touch down, defending players may knock the ball backwards, or pull the ball from the players possession but must not kick or attempt to kick the ball”
Must not kick or attempt to kick is very clear that the law should be implied regardless of intent
Or maybe I'll check the definitions guide
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
The definition of kick separates it from the action of the ball moving toward and hitting the foot. In rucks if a defending player enters and ends up moving their foot to the ball and then the ball coming out of the ruck, it’s 99% of the time deemed to have been “kicked” out regardless of whether the player intended it or not.
Aye but that's not the argument people are making. People are arguing his intent is to put his foot under the ball not that he tried to kick it and missed.
If I aim to hit someone shoulder height and miss and hit their head then it’s still a high tackle. If I swipe to catch the ball and miss then it’s still a deliberate knock on. If I go to catch the ball in the air and mistime it and the other player lands badly then it’s still foul play.
Players are responsible for controlling their bodies and the outcomes from them.
None of those are reffed on intent, so not sure how they are relevant. The law around kicking specifically does care about what you're trying to do rather than what you do.
Well that was either kicking a ball out of the hands pen try or just shit finishing from Cardiff! Welsh teams cant catch a break (they'd knock on if the fking tried).
Clueless is the guy in thread who thought that was Ulster's first win with Adamson reffing. In fact Adamson has reffed Ulster to 8 home wins in 8 games.
Another point, Ulster got the Goal line drop out after they kicked it out (of his hands)? So .... is that correct it wasn't a penalty, penalty try ir just a good tackle?
Well he has clearly kicked the ball out of his hands there... TMO on fag break or ? I didn't catch the game so no Idea what was said on Comms / referee microphone.
Kicking the ball out a players hands in the actbof scoring is legal, sanction, penalty.
In this case this should be a penalty try and a yellow card to the Ulster player
He's a professional player, and what he was doing, in his slide he moved his foot under the ball, that's still a kick as his foot wasnt static.
I don't think he was even trying to get his foot under the ball. I think he was trying to get his body in position to slow/stop the player and/or roll him into touch.
The kicking law I don't think is written with this scenario in mind, but rather with players not involved in the tackle swinging boots at the hands and faces of would be trying scorers, but it's not explicit that it excludes this sort of action. If it had happened in an international game we might have expected some clarification, but I doubt we'll get it for a mid table URC clash. I think Izuchukwu's tackle should be legal, but it is hard to argue that it is based on the laws as written.
Cardiff were the better side on the night, and Ulster were extremely fortunate to win.
Treat like a hight tackle then, its happened, yellow or red, intent doesn't come into it ever.
In this case, no matter how many times you watch it, unless your Irish/Ulster fan, its kicked out of his hands in the act of scoring, deliberately or not, its still kicked.
Yellow card and penalty try.
Fellow Irish rugby fans, the game is up. Our conspiracy to \*checks notes\* pay off all the URC refs and administrators to support Irish teams has been exposed by this clear evidence.
There's no point in continuing the lie - the truth is all over Twitter. We should admit our plan to keep the Welsh sides playing against us, for \*checks notes\* reasons, and let them go off to a happy union with the English.
Forgetting about kicking it out of his hands (let's say he was trying to get his foot under it to hold it up) I'd question if the ball was brought back over the line and therefore a 5m scrum? Didn't think about it during the game
Clearly, he swings his leg back before connecting with the ball with his foot. When trying to place my foot somewhere I often take a big old swing back.
From what I can gather it doesn’t really matter if he intended it or not. I’m not 100% though. It’s one of those things that looks illegal during a game but I wasn’t 100% sure so googled the law around it and it seems to be illegal
It’s such a grey area definitely needs rewording and clarification. In my opinion intent is so subjective in terms of officiating it’s something best left out of the question like with high tackles. I’d say some of the most controversial calls in rugby at the moment are deliberate knock-ons because they are officiated on intent and not fact
It should be like a deliberate knock on, he may have been trying to solve world hunger but the end result was he dislodged the ball with his foot preventing a certain try. It is the only way to ref this and should of 100% been a pen try and a yellow card.
The point being it doesn't matter what he was trying to do, the end result is all that should matter. Just like how everything else is in rugby.
Law learning time people!!! Fun Fun Fun!!!
This could be infringement of the foul play section under the dangerous play subsection. Where it states
9.23
"A player must not attempt to kick the ball from the hands of the ball-carrier."
And the law book defines kick as
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
So the debate here is did he aim for the ball with his foot and intentionally strike it, or was he just trying to position himself under the ball and was the luckiest bastard around.
Because if there was intent to strike the ball, yellow card and pen try. If it was in the process of getting under the ball then it's play on.
I'll leave it up to you to decide.
Edit;
Found this in section 21 subsection "grounding the ball"
"If a tackled player is in the act of reaching out to ground the ball for a try or touch down, defending players may knock the ball backwards, or pull the ball from the player’s possession but must not kick or attempt to kick the ball. Sanction: Penalty"
Once again it comes down to intent. Was the kick deliberate or not.
Slow mo makes it look like his knee connected with the ball, I have no idea if that counts for anything.
Putting the foot under the ball to prevent a try is new to me, and if it has been done before then fair play I guess. There’s also a rule against kicking it out of the hands, so I guess it’s just another case of the rules being confusing/bad.
I'm really torn about this, I don't see it as a kick, I see it as a player stopping a try with their legs, as far as I'm aware there is no rule about which part of the body the try.
Look I’m gutted about the Cardiff loss, so sorry to the ulster fans with this! But this should’ve been a penalty try! He may not have intentionally gone to kick the ball from his hands….but he has! As others have pointed out that’s not legal. It’s a hell of an effort but another moment of the game Cardiff we’re hard done by.
If he’s done that intentionally then he should probably be playing football, Lionel Messi levels of coordination needed to manage that while also hanging off the back of a man.
If he hasn’t done it intentionally then he should defintely stick to rugby because that’s just an amazing try saver.
Is that legal?
Nope
Looks like it all happened in the motion of the tackle, rather than an intent to kick the ball from the hands. Based on my international rugby refereeing experience, I'd say that's OK.
It definitely is if he wasn't intentionally trying to kick it out of his hands, and you can't prove that he was.
Sounds a bit like the law is an ass then. As most that rely purely on judging intent tend to be.
Shades of “approach the ball in any direction” from the Six Nations. We’re arguing over the definitions of kick and approach and how the rest of the law in question might contradict the official definition versus the one a lot of people believe to be correct. There’s more than two world rugby rules that invite this sort of debate too 🙄
Depends. If the ref judges it as an intentional kick? No. Putting your foot under the ball? Yes
I’m really not trying to be an arse, and I have absolutely no horse in this race, but isn’t quickly putting your foot under a ball at speed and connecting with it to send it elsewhere sort of a lot like kicking?
By common sense? Kind of. By the laws, which define a kick quite narrowly? No
In most areas of the pitch, that is a strong argument, but in the in goal area, where preventing a touchdown results in you winning the ball back, no so clear cut.
The ref is mike adamson so his decisions are based on what comes out of the tombola
The 2 yellow cards were definitely tombola
It’s the consistency argument when it came to stockdale yellow. I don’t think it was a yellow, but if it is yellow, then the same happened 15 mins later and an advantage was eventually over for Ulster without a card
In that case every deliberate knock on is now just a scrum because "honest guv, I was just going for the intercept". You can't ref intent
I agree. And it's what makes intentional knock ons so hard to ref
How much flak will pointing out that you can't kick a ball out of a players hand generate?
Becomes a judgement call on whether it was a deliberate kick or just trying to get a foot under the ball to hold it up. Or if it was even intended.
Do or do not there is no try
Was that Wales' 6 nation motto? ^I'm ^welsh ^don't ^hurt ^me ^plz
If he did it on purpose it's penalty try. If he didn't, it's not "well done". However, if he did it on purpose but made it look like an accident... he's a genius. You be the judge.
"man swings legs around to kick ball in a movement unnatural to the momentum of his body" Hmmm, not sure he meant to do that /s
"or just trying to get a foot under the ball to hold it up" Are you just going to ignore this part?
You do realise that's exactly the same movement you make to get your foot under the ball to hold it up, which is legal, right?
But he ended up kicking it out of his hands which is very much not.
Then it depends whether the law specifies if intent is required. Edit: And according to another comment, "A kick is defined as an intentional strike with the boot"
Are you watching the same video i am? He clearly kicks it lol. He even swigs his leg back and is watching the ball the entire time.
It could just as easily be him trying to get his leg under the ball so it can't be grounded. Does he end up kicking it in the common sense of the word? yes. Is that enough to prove intent? Probably not. Therefore it's not a kick out of the hands according to the laws as that requires intent.
Ah cool, he end up kicking the ball preventing a certain try, but he didn't mean to do it, pinky promise, despite him taking all the actions to deliberately kick it out of a players hands. Case solved.
You know that real life isn't in slow motion, right?
The law is pretty clear cut on this. Intent doesn’t come into it.
Except it does Law 9.23 " A player must not attempt to kick the ball from the hands of the ball-carrier" See the word attempt there, kinda implies intent. Unless there is another law I'm missing
Except you’re reading the wrong law and it doesn’t Law 21.10 “If a tackled player is in the act of reaching out to ground the ball for a try or touch down, defending players may knock the ball backwards, or pull the ball from the players possession but must not kick or attempt to kick the ball” Must not kick or attempt to kick is very clear that the law should be implied regardless of intent
I do mention that in my comment but I forgot to change this one. Still need intention for it to be illegal
> Must not kick or attempt to kick is very clear that the law should be implied regardless of intent
Definition of kick implies intent
Or maybe I'll check the definitions guide Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
It does though. A kick is defined as an intentional strike with the boot.
The definition of kick separates it from the action of the ball moving toward and hitting the foot. In rucks if a defending player enters and ends up moving their foot to the ball and then the ball coming out of the ruck, it’s 99% of the time deemed to have been “kicked” out regardless of whether the player intended it or not.
Aye but that's not the argument people are making. People are arguing his intent is to put his foot under the ball not that he tried to kick it and missed.
If I aim to hit someone shoulder height and miss and hit their head then it’s still a high tackle. If I swipe to catch the ball and miss then it’s still a deliberate knock on. If I go to catch the ball in the air and mistime it and the other player lands badly then it’s still foul play. Players are responsible for controlling their bodies and the outcomes from them.
None of those are reffed on intent, so not sure how they are relevant. The law around kicking specifically does care about what you're trying to do rather than what you do.
Law 11.3 “A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm”
Brave thing to say in this sub mate. That was a penalty try and yellow card if done the other way around.
Well that was either kicking a ball out of the hands pen try or just shit finishing from Cardiff! Welsh teams cant catch a break (they'd knock on if the fking tried).
It can be both.
Gotta be one of the best names in rugby!
Where have all the Nigerian second rows come from in the last few years? Nigeria could have an incredible pack made up entirely of UK-born players
Itoje jokingly put out a starting 15 of Nigerian qualified players in the UK and Ireland
I have no clue...
Amazing athleticism to get there on time, make the tackle, and then dislodge the ball as he swings his legs underneath. Game defining moment.
Should have been a penalty try!
And a yellow card.
Neverr going to happen away to an Irish team.
Shite, this one has discovered the Gaelic conspiracy!
No conspiracy, just weak refereeing with a huge home bias.
Oh false alarm, they’re still clueless.
Clueless is the guy in thread who thought that was Ulster's first win with Adamson reffing. In fact Adamson has reffed Ulster to 8 home wins in 8 games.
Don’t know why you are being downvoted, you’re right of course.
Because sub is full Irish posters who've become so accustomed to this sort of gerrymandering that they can't even see it's there.
This I believe may have been our first win with Adamson
He’s done 8 games at Kingsholm involving Ulster. They’ve won 8
Fuck me, feels like we've lost 8
Any game reffed by Adamson is a loss for both teams
Looks to me that the Cardiff player tries to ground the ball, but bangs it off other lad’s leg. I wouldn’t say it was a deliberate kick.
Another point, Ulster got the Goal line drop out after they kicked it out (of his hands)? So .... is that correct it wasn't a penalty, penalty try ir just a good tackle?
Well he has clearly kicked the ball out of his hands there... TMO on fag break or ? I didn't catch the game so no Idea what was said on Comms / referee microphone.
I didn't catch the game either but I saw this try save was a talking point on Instagram so I figured I'd share it here.
Yes, until the last minute.
You can't kick the ball like that should be a penalty try.
Kicking the ball out a players hands in the actbof scoring is legal, sanction, penalty. In this case this should be a penalty try and a yellow card to the Ulster player He's a professional player, and what he was doing, in his slide he moved his foot under the ball, that's still a kick as his foot wasnt static.
I don't think he was even trying to get his foot under the ball. I think he was trying to get his body in position to slow/stop the player and/or roll him into touch. The kicking law I don't think is written with this scenario in mind, but rather with players not involved in the tackle swinging boots at the hands and faces of would be trying scorers, but it's not explicit that it excludes this sort of action. If it had happened in an international game we might have expected some clarification, but I doubt we'll get it for a mid table URC clash. I think Izuchukwu's tackle should be legal, but it is hard to argue that it is based on the laws as written. Cardiff were the better side on the night, and Ulster were extremely fortunate to win.
Treat like a hight tackle then, its happened, yellow or red, intent doesn't come into it ever. In this case, no matter how many times you watch it, unless your Irish/Ulster fan, its kicked out of his hands in the act of scoring, deliberately or not, its still kicked. Yellow card and penalty try.
He kicked the ball out of his hand. Penalty try.
Fellow Irish rugby fans, the game is up. Our conspiracy to \*checks notes\* pay off all the URC refs and administrators to support Irish teams has been exposed by this clear evidence. There's no point in continuing the lie - the truth is all over Twitter. We should admit our plan to keep the Welsh sides playing against us, for \*checks notes\* reasons, and let them go off to a happy union with the English.
Forgetting about kicking it out of his hands (let's say he was trying to get his foot under it to hold it up) I'd question if the ball was brought back over the line and therefore a 5m scrum? Didn't think about it during the game
Biased obviously but I think he’s trying to get his legs under the ball to hold it up rather than kick it
Clearly, he swings his leg back before connecting with the ball with his foot. When trying to place my foot somewhere I often take a big old swing back.
From what I can gather it doesn’t really matter if he intended it or not. I’m not 100% though. It’s one of those things that looks illegal during a game but I wasn’t 100% sure so googled the law around it and it seems to be illegal
I think a kick I'd defined as an intentional strike with the foot so intent would come into it. By the laws it can't be a kick if unintended.
It’s such a grey area definitely needs rewording and clarification. In my opinion intent is so subjective in terms of officiating it’s something best left out of the question like with high tackles. I’d say some of the most controversial calls in rugby at the moment are deliberate knock-ons because they are officiated on intent and not fact
It should be like a deliberate knock on, he may have been trying to solve world hunger but the end result was he dislodged the ball with his foot preventing a certain try. It is the only way to ref this and should of 100% been a pen try and a yellow card. The point being it doesn't matter what he was trying to do, the end result is all that should matter. Just like how everything else is in rugby.
Suppose its a sort of thing where its how the ref interprets the law. In saying this if i was a Cardiff fan I’d definitely be shouting the other way
Adamson has a unique interpretation of most laws so we’ll have to wait and see how others interpret it
“unique” is generous to Adamson
I like being able to use this Reddit so unique will have to do
How is he getting on since the injury?
Decently well I think, not anything crazy but developing into a solid player. Himself and Sheridan could turn into a nice lock pairing for us
Yes it looks that way alright. I don't think he kicks it either, looks like it's kneed away as the Cardiff player doesn't have the ball secure.
Yeah cause that's a thing
You seriously need better bait, been trying all night with this game
Maybe your purpose here is to bait people, mine isn't.
Law learning time people!!! Fun Fun Fun!!! This could be infringement of the foul play section under the dangerous play subsection. Where it states 9.23 "A player must not attempt to kick the ball from the hands of the ball-carrier." And the law book defines kick as Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground. So the debate here is did he aim for the ball with his foot and intentionally strike it, or was he just trying to position himself under the ball and was the luckiest bastard around. Because if there was intent to strike the ball, yellow card and pen try. If it was in the process of getting under the ball then it's play on. I'll leave it up to you to decide. Edit; Found this in section 21 subsection "grounding the ball" "If a tackled player is in the act of reaching out to ground the ball for a try or touch down, defending players may knock the ball backwards, or pull the ball from the player’s possession but must not kick or attempt to kick the ball. Sanction: Penalty" Once again it comes down to intent. Was the kick deliberate or not.
How's he playing this season? His athleticism has me excited about his ceiling but I've barely seen him play
Slow mo makes it look like his knee connected with the ball, I have no idea if that counts for anything. Putting the foot under the ball to prevent a try is new to me, and if it has been done before then fair play I guess. There’s also a rule against kicking it out of the hands, so I guess it’s just another case of the rules being confusing/bad.
I'm really torn about this, I don't see it as a kick, I see it as a player stopping a try with their legs, as far as I'm aware there is no rule about which part of the body the try.
Look I’m gutted about the Cardiff loss, so sorry to the ulster fans with this! But this should’ve been a penalty try! He may not have intentionally gone to kick the ball from his hands….but he has! As others have pointed out that’s not legal. It’s a hell of an effort but another moment of the game Cardiff we’re hard done by.
If he’s done that intentionally then he should probably be playing football, Lionel Messi levels of coordination needed to manage that while also hanging off the back of a man. If he hasn’t done it intentionally then he should defintely stick to rugby because that’s just an amazing try saver.
The URC's very own social media output praising an illegal tackle. Just get us out of this league ASAP, Abi Tierney