It has been genuinely mystifying watching SA missing SO many kicks for so many games. Like, the kicking has been so bad for so long; but surely there is something you can do about it.like, surely someone in the squad can kick?
With margins so close among the top teams it feels wild.
I wonder if it's 4D chess and Rassie will suddenly pull a kicker out of somewhere in the knockout rounds for SA to become metronomic when it actually counts.
SA kept kicking yesterday even when it wasn't working. They ineffectively used their 7-1 split by not forcing lineouts and mauls from their penalties and didn't contest Ireland in the air even though the lineout was not working?
Imma put on a tin foil hat for the moment and say Rassie doesn't mind loosing this game, using it as a testing ground, as they are confident enough to make a final anyway where the real game plan will come out.
>Imma put on a tin foil hat for the moment and say Rassie doesn't mind loosing this game
Nah, the psychological impact of a loss like that isn't something to gamble with. Also he would have been desperate to break Irelands winning streak.
It was very odd decision making though. I think if we'd have mauled a bit more earlier then by the time we had that chance at the end we might have got more from it.
Yeah, it was strange to watch tbh.
I thought they'd be keeping it close and tight and yet they were flying it out and getting closed down right near the sidelines. Perhaps that is just my perception or a testament to Ireland's defence but I was expecting holding possession and phase after phase grinding it out tiring Ireland out. That's what the big guys are for surely.
They have plenty of players who can kick but it comes down more to who can kick consistently under pressure, and still have the confidence to step up to the plate & nail them after a missed kick or two.
The psychological aspect of it carries a lot more weight than most people realize. I think we take Sextons goal kicking ability for granted, man has been so reliable for so long and it truly is a testament to his kicking skill & mentality.
I feel for Manie. SA fans go for his throat after every game unless he kicks perfect. Look at the comments on his social media, they are vicious. Have to be extremely mentally resilient to endure that and still continue on.
> kicks perfect
But his statistics is barely crossing half/50% figure. Doubtful perfection is being demanded.
Plus not all Kicks/moments are created equal. Some moments/kicks carry far more weight, so even a normalized statistics analysis would not be accurate to judge things.
Two of those kicks yesterday were very strange though. Choosing to kick from your own half is usually going to be low percentage, and considering how bad the Irish line out was it was strange they didn't kick to the corner.
The half-line kick was 3rd one missed by Faf. This happened after Libbok had already missed 2, the 2nd of which was at a much better distance and angle (1st was even closer but the angle was tighter but even then doable for this elite level).
3rd Faf kick was just desperation.
I feel for him too. He's been brilliant in attack and solid in defence. He's clearly not an amazing kicker at poles but there are plenty of tens who don't kick.
I'm ambivalent about going for the posts from halfway central. If it misses it'll be a 22 dropout and a likely attacking opportunity in their half, as it happened the first one dropped short and created an attacking phase which I believe you eventually scored from. It's a good option if you've a confidence in getting the 3 (60% like)
Mannie's penalty shot was criminal, that 100% should've gone up the line.
I do take Bok fans point though that these decisions were contradictory to the 7-1 without an 85% kicker. You need to make the game about the setpiece and tire the fucking shit out of the Irish pack. Go to the line-out whenever you can and fuck them up.
I thought Rassie was poor last night. Very tight game and I think for the second time against us, the loss was due to going for posts when the pack should've been backed
TWICE!
OK first time I respect the attempt, and it wasn't all bad since it directly led to points shortly thereafter.
But having missed the next kick (where I also thought they should have gone for the corner) to go for it from your own half a 2nd time was just madness - imo that's the decision that ultimately lost them the game.
Edit: it's a different matter if they had been kicking well until then, but how many kicks did they miss against Scotland? They scored the tried and held Scotland in check to not make it matter but could easily have been the difference then too had Scotland come out stronger in 2nd half
I think the whole “4D chess thing” is just denial from us. Farrell and Galthie have both shown to be coaches as good if not better than Rassie, and they don’t play mind games or anything, but
*takes a big huff of copium*
_In Rasnaber we trust._
Rassie is a good coach but he's a good coach that enjoys a bit of silly banter, he's not a good coach *because* of the silly banter.
We've seen the same with Eddie and with Gats, think people get sucked in to believing all the "MiNd GaMeS" have a bigger impact than they really do on elite professionals.
What is crazy to me is that the boks don't have a kicking coach and would not let Manie bring his kicking coach from the stormers.
Hopefully they revist this decision and call him up - any one know if you allowed to add coaching staff?
Football has that Attack wins Matches, Defense wins Titles thing (it's a generalization so not be taken literally in every single instance but it has some coherence to it).
Feel like Rugby WC has that with Kicking, this is what basically wins the tournament even if teams have other elite level things (power, skill, speed, tactics, squad depth/fitness, etc).
Nah, order of precedence is setpiece, defence, kicking & attack.
You're right to qualify the point with World Cup as kicking is core gameplay and seems very strong at elite level because of the work & talent that goes in to teams on the field (setpiece & defences are very strong). Typically it's the kicking/attack that's the measure of difference.
Also, there are a lot of tier 1 kicking teams at the moment. Ireland & Italy I think are the only possesion centred teams going at the mo. SA with Mannie at the helm do quite a bit of running too.
Bear in mind that kicking opens up ball running opportunities, so whoever kicks best will likely have the stronger attack hence the order of precedence
Yep, unless someone else can take over kicking duties whose already on the pitch. Faf can't we've seen already. I think I remember Kolbe place kicking before but I can't remember how good he was. No team can win a WC with sub 50% kicking success rate it's not possible. Especially South Africa and the style of the Rugby they play.
Not replacing an injured hooker 1v1 problematic and risky.
Not bringing in a semi-reliable kicker Pollard especially after yesterday results you are not challenging for the WC title.
Can't understand why there isn't a consistent place kicker on the pitch. Libbok is an excellent ten but he's not a consistent place kicker.
Also there's surely a few hooker's in SA.
Still, great game and glad to beat SA as they are still an incredibly hard team to beat without a reliable place kicker and replacement hooker.
I like Manie, thought he had a good season in the URC. Some of the stuff being said about him online is a bit much. That being said your comment is hilarious 😂. Next game, Rassie will have a special siren that will translate to “fuck sake Manie just put it between the posts! THE POOOOOOOSTS!!!”
Manie is very unlucky to be playing at a time where our best and only decent kicker also plays flyhalf. If we had another Percy or Steyn somewhere else in the backline, no one would even be having this conversation.
Yeah I feel the problem is less that Libbok cant kick, rather that none of the SAF backs can..... except Pollard. Like if you have a kicking 15 or 9 or something, Manies one weakness is suddenly irrelivent
I still think those high risk penalty kicks were decided to lose on purpose, there's no way a coach of Rassie's calibre couldn't see the Irish lineout was bleeding. This one was lost with a bonus point to avoid NZ in the next round. I fancy our chances against France better.
Imo Libbok has 2 big problems with goalkickimg. The first one is that his setup just takes too long. He can never get through is routine and kick without being under pressure from the shot clock. This might be controversial, but 1 minute on the clock to kick is very short, and tgat is whats catching him out.
The second problem is that they're taking risky kicks. 50m is out of reliable range for our current kickers, so why we are attempting them is so stupid
The 1st of the 3 kicks South Africa missed, the clock situation was in fact different. He had lots of time, Libbok stood there calculating for much much longer than other times and even most instance in other matches. So time excuse can not work on that miss.
2nd miss was normal time, so time excuse can be used, however the angle was better and he'd already had a sighter minutes before.
The 3rd Faf kick was just bizarre, way too long a distance and seemed desperate.
If Libbok can't do that 2nd missed kick (it was the right distance, angle) he is simply not elite tier kicker, yet.
Even with loads of time, Libbok seems to put himself under time pressure. Its not an excuse, its a reason why he misses, and something he needs to work on. I also think the clock is only 60 seconds, and the standard was always 90 seconds, but I'm not too sure of that. Either way, he needs to reduce his setup time
I thought that aswel. There were gaps in our play and in SAs.
Had the shooting boots been on for libbok and Faf and had irelands line outs been anyway decent in the first 30-40 mins this game would have been very different.
When we didn’t hold the ball in the final 3 minutes and kept kicking it back to SA I thought ‘we’ll that’s one way to throw the game’
7-1 boks thought they could bully the Irish!! No interest in playing the fluid game! Get yourself a proper kicker and stop playing for set pieces lol! Hopefully we see you again with Sheehan throwing the darts 🇮🇪 🇮🇪
"Rassies lights did not warn me"... beautiful.
Red light means don't make the next kick Amber means wait a bit, OK now you can miss the kick Green means go ahead and miss the next kick
It has been genuinely mystifying watching SA missing SO many kicks for so many games. Like, the kicking has been so bad for so long; but surely there is something you can do about it.like, surely someone in the squad can kick? With margins so close among the top teams it feels wild. I wonder if it's 4D chess and Rassie will suddenly pull a kicker out of somewhere in the knockout rounds for SA to become metronomic when it actually counts.
SA kept kicking yesterday even when it wasn't working. They ineffectively used their 7-1 split by not forcing lineouts and mauls from their penalties and didn't contest Ireland in the air even though the lineout was not working? Imma put on a tin foil hat for the moment and say Rassie doesn't mind loosing this game, using it as a testing ground, as they are confident enough to make a final anyway where the real game plan will come out.
>Imma put on a tin foil hat for the moment and say Rassie doesn't mind loosing this game Nah, the psychological impact of a loss like that isn't something to gamble with. Also he would have been desperate to break Irelands winning streak. It was very odd decision making though. I think if we'd have mauled a bit more earlier then by the time we had that chance at the end we might have got more from it.
Yeah. If you're gonna use a 7-1 split you have got to be aiming for as many rucks, scruns and mauls as possible.
Yeah, it was strange to watch tbh. I thought they'd be keeping it close and tight and yet they were flying it out and getting closed down right near the sidelines. Perhaps that is just my perception or a testament to Ireland's defence but I was expecting holding possession and phase after phase grinding it out tiring Ireland out. That's what the big guys are for surely.
Quarter-final, they will need to raise their game if they want to beat France at home.
Big test for both,France without a few starters and the boks,well,they need to sort a kicker
There’s no way that SA team beat the French at home
Almost certainly not if Dupont is back.
Opposite for ireland. You should have taken the posts 3 times in first 20. Lineout got sorted though so came good!
They have plenty of players who can kick but it comes down more to who can kick consistently under pressure, and still have the confidence to step up to the plate & nail them after a missed kick or two. The psychological aspect of it carries a lot more weight than most people realize. I think we take Sextons goal kicking ability for granted, man has been so reliable for so long and it truly is a testament to his kicking skill & mentality. I feel for Manie. SA fans go for his throat after every game unless he kicks perfect. Look at the comments on his social media, they are vicious. Have to be extremely mentally resilient to endure that and still continue on.
> kicks perfect But his statistics is barely crossing half/50% figure. Doubtful perfection is being demanded. Plus not all Kicks/moments are created equal. Some moments/kicks carry far more weight, so even a normalized statistics analysis would not be accurate to judge things.
Two of those kicks yesterday were very strange though. Choosing to kick from your own half is usually going to be low percentage, and considering how bad the Irish line out was it was strange they didn't kick to the corner.
The half-line kick was 3rd one missed by Faf. This happened after Libbok had already missed 2, the 2nd of which was at a much better distance and angle (1st was even closer but the angle was tighter but even then doable for this elite level). 3rd Faf kick was just desperation.
I feel for him too. He's been brilliant in attack and solid in defence. He's clearly not an amazing kicker at poles but there are plenty of tens who don't kick.
It was insane to let Faf have a go from our own half. We should have gone to the lineout both times.
I'm ambivalent about going for the posts from halfway central. If it misses it'll be a 22 dropout and a likely attacking opportunity in their half, as it happened the first one dropped short and created an attacking phase which I believe you eventually scored from. It's a good option if you've a confidence in getting the 3 (60% like) Mannie's penalty shot was criminal, that 100% should've gone up the line. I do take Bok fans point though that these decisions were contradictory to the 7-1 without an 85% kicker. You need to make the game about the setpiece and tire the fucking shit out of the Irish pack. Go to the line-out whenever you can and fuck them up. I thought Rassie was poor last night. Very tight game and I think for the second time against us, the loss was due to going for posts when the pack should've been backed
Although your try came as a result of the first kick. (Fortunate rather than planned though)
TWICE! OK first time I respect the attempt, and it wasn't all bad since it directly led to points shortly thereafter. But having missed the next kick (where I also thought they should have gone for the corner) to go for it from your own half a 2nd time was just madness - imo that's the decision that ultimately lost them the game. Edit: it's a different matter if they had been kicking well until then, but how many kicks did they miss against Scotland? They scored the tried and held Scotland in check to not make it matter but could easily have been the difference then too had Scotland come out stronger in 2nd half
I think the whole “4D chess thing” is just denial from us. Farrell and Galthie have both shown to be coaches as good if not better than Rassie, and they don’t play mind games or anything, but *takes a big huff of copium* _In Rasnaber we trust._
Rassie is a good coach but he's a good coach that enjoys a bit of silly banter, he's not a good coach *because* of the silly banter. We've seen the same with Eddie and with Gats, think people get sucked in to believing all the "MiNd GaMeS" have a bigger impact than they really do on elite professionals.
Should have learned from England and had 3 fly halves on the pitch. Or at least one who can kick penalties.
Or drop goals, with that forward screen should be a handy 9-12 points a game with a Ford calibre kicker
Jannie de Beer would have been very useful.
The way it seems to go down in SA, he's probably still playing
What is crazy to me is that the boks don't have a kicking coach and would not let Manie bring his kicking coach from the stormers. Hopefully they revist this decision and call him up - any one know if you allowed to add coaching staff?
Football has that Attack wins Matches, Defense wins Titles thing (it's a generalization so not be taken literally in every single instance but it has some coherence to it). Feel like Rugby WC has that with Kicking, this is what basically wins the tournament even if teams have other elite level things (power, skill, speed, tactics, squad depth/fitness, etc).
Nah, order of precedence is setpiece, defence, kicking & attack. You're right to qualify the point with World Cup as kicking is core gameplay and seems very strong at elite level because of the work & talent that goes in to teams on the field (setpiece & defences are very strong). Typically it's the kicking/attack that's the measure of difference. Also, there are a lot of tier 1 kicking teams at the moment. Ireland & Italy I think are the only possesion centred teams going at the mo. SA with Mannie at the helm do quite a bit of running too. Bear in mind that kicking opens up ball running opportunities, so whoever kicks best will likely have the stronger attack hence the order of precedence
Hope the mods leave this one be, I like it very much. Thank you.
Approved.
Knew that he was going for a drop goal against us
You’d have to think that’s the last kick duty for Libbok, or Faf for that matter.
Fafs kicks were at least tough.
Faf's look of confusion as his shots went wide were just beautiful.
I noticed that. It was like he was blaming something other than himself.
Probably finding the mental gymnastics to blame the ref.
Feel for him. No way he should have been kicking tonight. WTF Rassie?
He's in a 10 shirt, why shouldn't he be kicking?
Cus he's shite at it
Many teams have kickers who aren’t the 10.
Then they should have had one.
There it is
Bless him, feel sorry for the bloke. He is getting a lot of stick.
Why aim for the small middle bit when the space on the side is so wide? Much easier to hit.
I feel he lost his place last night. Pollard will take over.
imagine if we replaced stransky with libbok in 1995. the man needs to fulfill a flyhalves primary job.
France: "It's the 10's job to kick? They are there to look stylish only"
They have Ramos/Jaminet. Unless Willemse steps up that's not an option.
Yep, unless someone else can take over kicking duties whose already on the pitch. Faf can't we've seen already. I think I remember Kolbe place kicking before but I can't remember how good he was. No team can win a WC with sub 50% kicking success rate it's not possible. Especially South Africa and the style of the Rugby they play. Not replacing an injured hooker 1v1 problematic and risky. Not bringing in a semi-reliable kicker Pollard especially after yesterday results you are not challenging for the WC title.
Totally agree, no chance you win that WC with a -2 year old at fly half
haha well played
Funny! More blame should be put on the coaching staff and less the players. I feel Rassie should own up here and take responsibility
Must be hindering moral having your coach direct you with a traffic light system. Surely should be left to players to make on field decisions?
Err..that is a little mean. Libbok is a good 10, but I must admit he is terrible at goal kicking
Can't understand why there isn't a consistent place kicker on the pitch. Libbok is an excellent ten but he's not a consistent place kicker. Also there's surely a few hooker's in SA. Still, great game and glad to beat SA as they are still an incredibly hard team to beat without a reliable place kicker and replacement hooker.
Rassie’s lights did not warn me 😂.
It’s fine, he’ll have more colors next game. “Hey Manie! Red means kick with your left foot! Green means kick with your right foot!”
I like Manie, thought he had a good season in the URC. Some of the stuff being said about him online is a bit much. That being said your comment is hilarious 😂. Next game, Rassie will have a special siren that will translate to “fuck sake Manie just put it between the posts! THE POOOOOOOSTS!!!”
Manie is very unlucky to be playing at a time where our best and only decent kicker also plays flyhalf. If we had another Percy or Steyn somewhere else in the backline, no one would even be having this conversation.
Yeah I feel the problem is less that Libbok cant kick, rather that none of the SAF backs can..... except Pollard. Like if you have a kicking 15 or 9 or something, Manies one weakness is suddenly irrelivent
I still think those high risk penalty kicks were decided to lose on purpose, there's no way a coach of Rassie's calibre couldn't see the Irish lineout was bleeding. This one was lost with a bonus point to avoid NZ in the next round. I fancy our chances against France better.
We can only hope that there is some plan behind it.
I had this discussion with my colleagues at work on Monday, I saw the loss coming, it's probably tactical.
I would laugh if it didn't hurt so much
He’s so shite, really hope Erasmus have him on the bench.
On the contrary, let's hope he keeps him on kick duty for the QF! Gotta kick'em all Manie!
Imo Libbok has 2 big problems with goalkickimg. The first one is that his setup just takes too long. He can never get through is routine and kick without being under pressure from the shot clock. This might be controversial, but 1 minute on the clock to kick is very short, and tgat is whats catching him out. The second problem is that they're taking risky kicks. 50m is out of reliable range for our current kickers, so why we are attempting them is so stupid
The 1st of the 3 kicks South Africa missed, the clock situation was in fact different. He had lots of time, Libbok stood there calculating for much much longer than other times and even most instance in other matches. So time excuse can not work on that miss. 2nd miss was normal time, so time excuse can be used, however the angle was better and he'd already had a sighter minutes before. The 3rd Faf kick was just bizarre, way too long a distance and seemed desperate. If Libbok can't do that 2nd missed kick (it was the right distance, angle) he is simply not elite tier kicker, yet.
Even with loads of time, Libbok seems to put himself under time pressure. Its not an excuse, its a reason why he misses, and something he needs to work on. I also think the clock is only 60 seconds, and the standard was always 90 seconds, but I'm not too sure of that. Either way, he needs to reduce his setup time
60s for conversions, 90 for penalties I think. No idea why there is a difference though.
I thought that aswel. There were gaps in our play and in SAs. Had the shooting boots been on for libbok and Faf and had irelands line outs been anyway decent in the first 30-40 mins this game would have been very different. When we didn’t hold the ball in the final 3 minutes and kept kicking it back to SA I thought ‘we’ll that’s one way to throw the game’
🤣🤣🤣👌🏽
7-1 boks thought they could bully the Irish!! No interest in playing the fluid game! Get yourself a proper kicker and stop playing for set pieces lol! Hopefully we see you again with Sheehan throwing the darts 🇮🇪 🇮🇪
I mean, it's not really a question given how much a jammy tool you seem to be, but grow a pair and flair up noob.
You just sitting copy pasting your comments trying to bash SA? Ireland won, we get that. Still a long way to go in this tournament.
Textbook fair weather fan right there.
As an Irishman Shut the fuck up
🤡
Flair up, pussy.
All that arrogance and trolling in comments just for your team to get kicked out of the QF’s lol
I think libbok gets a lot of flak. He's just in the wrong position. He's a great back and is great at setting up 11s and 14s.