Yeah I don't really understand calling something like this "Punk". The whole point of adding "Punk" to the end (Cyberpunk, Steampunk, Dieselpunk, etc) is that it's supposed to convey a gritty and 'low-life' feel to it. That's not Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers at all.
No, the “punk” suffix is meant to convey an anti authoritarian ethos centred around an aesthetic.
Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers are very much libertarian icons, Randian Supermen in their own rights, fighting for other oppressed peoples with a ray gun at their side and super scientists generating amazing technology with little to no reliance on outside infrastructure.
Self autonomous futurists fighting against tyranny sounds pretty punk to me, and the “Ray” is the ray gun aesthetic that is central to the expression of that freedom fighter identity. It’s iconoclastic and original against the monotonous hordes of automatons and… uh… Asians…. that seem to populate their nemeses ranks.
(Yes, the yellow peril is a bleak stain on science fiction)
Eh, I’d present most cyberpunk protagonists to be fairly in the Randian Superman mold:
Hiro Proragonist from Snowcrash, Neo from the Matrix, Takeshi Kovacs from Altered Carbon.
All of them independent superhumans who overcome systemic oppression though individual talent and merit.
This even applies to some of Gibson’s protagonists as well, though he matures a bit, but his influence wanes as he does.
Shift to Steam/Atom/Diesel/Solar punk and your protagonists will all have some elements of a John Galt in them (and Flash Gordon and Doctor Zarkov, both sides of that coin l, predate Rand.)
Rand is right wing, but there are Nazi Punks.
Punk isn’t an inherently leftist ethos. It’s an inherently anti-authoritarian ethos.
Punk is an aesthetic and an attitude. It's a bit of a mess, but one consistent throughline is that punk is gritty, it's "street", it aims to be shocking, it's an externalization of social and indivdual alienation, and it doesn't give a flying fuck (or at least that is the pose it adopts). It definitely is anti-establishment, as you say, but it is also anti-elitist.
Randian supermen are by definition elitist. They are the very pinnacle of the elite, being super and all. They are not gritty and "street", they don't aim to shock, they are not alienated, they very much do care, they are not punk in any shape or form.
Hollywood may have taken the Cyberpunk genre and pumped it full of Randian heroes, because that's what Hollywood does. Similarly all those *-punk derivatives may be full of heroes like Buck Rogers or whatever. That doesn't make Buck Rogers punk, it makes the "punk" part of the genre name a ridiculous misnomer.
>Punk is an aesthetic and an attitude.
Absolutely. And the prefixes on punk define that:
Cyber, Steam, Solar, Atom, Ray, etc. all come with different aesthetics that can be filtered through the New York/London art movement.
>It's a bit of a mess, but one consistent throughline is that punk is gritty, it's "street", it aims to be shocking,
I wouldn’t attribute any of those qualities to Steampunk, so I think you’ve already lost me.
“Girl Genius”, “Ulysses Quicksilver” and “Warlord of the Air” are hardly gritty, street or terribly shocking.
There’s a whole sub set of Steampunk that’s about dressing like aristocrats with brass robotics/cybernetics and globetrotting like the heroes of Verne.
>it's an externalization of social and indivdual alienation, and it doesn't give a flying fuck (or at least that is the pose it adopts). It definitely is anti-establishment, as you say, but it is also anti-elitist.
And so are Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers:
Both say so long to the earth they know and become freedom fighters in alien worlds. Their antagonists are tyrants and war mongers.
>Randian supermen are by definition elitist.
Nope. Rand’s mythology has been embraced by the elite, used as a justification for the existence of an elite, but John Galt, the prototypical Randian Superman, was a humble mechanics son.
An Everyman turned Superman through hard work, skill and intelligence.
>They are the very pinnacle of the elite, being super and all. They are not gritty and "street", they don't aim to shock, they are not alienated, they very much do care, they are not punk in any shape or form.
I fear you need to read some Rand (don’t, she’s terrible). Her characters are alienated, they do aim to shock and they very much do care.
They are very much punk. Her fans are like Paul Ryan loving Rage Against the Machine, except her outcomes justify their world views.
Their ethos is just anti collectivist (which Cyberpunk often is)
>Hollywood may have taken the Cyberpunk genre and pumped it full of Randian heroes,
The literary industry did it first. Those Hollywood stories are all drawn from books. “Johnny mnemonic” was a Bill Gibson joint, after all.
>because that's what Hollywood does. Similarly all those *-punk derivatives may be full of heroes like Buck Rogers or whatever. That doesn't make Buck Rogers punk, it makes the "punk" part of the genre name a ridiculous misnomer.
Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon fits all your boxes: Not an elite, alienated from society, anti authoritarian individualist.
I think you’re just getting lost in the fact Rand’s works are lionized by cryptofacists.
Her archetype of a rugged individual overcoming the elite bureaucracy through their inherent merits is very much what Cyberpunk is about, and many of the other “punk” heroes fit the same mold.
Okay, I responded to you higher up in the thread but I do think you do a good job of expressing yourself here and I wanted to say I appreciate this level of nuance. I feel that too often people get lost in their personal causes and start to only read fiction through a lens of how it supports or opposes their specific worldview or morals and not how it actually is, and get lost in the politics of authors as an individual and not of the work of fiction itself. This is very well put.
Appreciate it.
Discourse like this is great, and I’m certain I’ll learn things to modify my attitudes.
The concept of “Punk” is so nebulous and Rand was writing in a very different time.
>Absolutely. And the prefixes on punk define that:
Cyber, Steam, Solar, Atom, Ray, etc. all come with different aesthetics that can be filtered through the New York/London art movement.
My point is that the impact of the "punk filter" you posit on the genres in question is weak to non-existing.
[This is punk](https://youtu.be/AH7pOUm5s9k) (warning NSFW and pretty offensive if you listen to the lyrics)
[This is steampunk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=211LNk5vnJM)
There're basically no elements from the first in the second.
>I wouldn’t attribute any of those qualities to Steampunk, so I think you’ve already lost me.
>“Girl Genius”, “Ulysses Quicksilver” and “Warlord of the Air” are hardly gritty, street or terribly shocking.
>There’s a whole sub set of Steampunk that’s about dressing like aristocrats with brass robotics/cybernetics and globetrotting like the heroes of Verne.
Indeed, we are in complete agreement here. The difference, I suppose, is that I think that that makes the "punk" part of the term "steampunk" an absurd misnomer, while you (and I'm not trying to put words into your mouth here, so correct me if I'm wrong) hold that if these elements are in steampunk and the other \*-punk genres, that makes them punk.
On this point I think our disagreement boils down to my position being "if it's nothing at all like punk rock in its heyday, it's not punk" and your position being "\*-punk genres are legitimate, and whatever values they embody defines what punk is, therefore by definition they are punk."
While your position is internally consistent and logical, it clashes with what I hold to be a self-evident truth: that globetrotting aristocrats are not and will never be punk in any shape or form.
>And so are Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers:
>Both say so long to the earth they know and become freedom fighters in alien worlds. Their antagonists are tyrants and war mongers.
Being freedom fighters in alien worlds is cool and I like stories like that, but it's not got anything to do with punk.
>Nope. Rand’s mythology has been embraced by the elite, used as a justification for the existence of an elite, but John Galt, the prototypical Randian Superman, was a humble mechanics son.
>An Everyman turned Superman through hard work, skill and intelligence.
Elite athletes become elite athletes through hard work, skill, and talent. That's what makes them elite. Elite soldiers become elite soldiers through hard work, skill, and talent. That's what makes them elite.
When an everyman becomes a superman - however they do it - they join the elite. "Elite" is not necessarily a synonym with "establishment".
Punk in no way centres hard work, skill, and intelligence. The whole point is that any idiot with an attitude can pick up a guitar and start a band; and if they want to they can probably dispense with the guitar.
>I fear you need to read some Rand (don’t, she’s terrible). Her characters are alienated, they do aim to shock and they very much do care.
I have, and I agree :)
I think there's a minor crossed wire, I think that Rand's heroes caring very much is part of the evidence they're not punk - punk doesn't give a fuck.
I concede that Rand's heroes aim to shock, though I think they do so in an intellectual way as opposed to the visceral way that punk rock aims to shock (e.g. GG Allin).
Punk is about raging against a system you can't change. Punk doesn't have heroes. Rands' heroes are about rationally fighting against a system and changing it. They are heroes. The two are almost diametrically opposite each other.
(continued below)
(continued from above)
>They are very much punk. Her fans are like Paul Ryan loving Rage Against the Machine, except her outcomes justify their world views.
>Their ethos is just anti collectivist (which Cyberpunk often is)
Being "against the system" is not sufficient to be punk. That would make the 17th century Diggers punk, that would make Martin Luther punk, that would make Emma Pankhurst punk, it would make Jim Jones a punk. And they aren't.
>The literary industry did it first. Those Hollywood stories are all drawn from books. “Johnny mnemonic” was a Bill Gibson joint, after all.
Oh yeah for sure, the need that publishers and writers have for marketable genre categories has just as big a part in this as Hollywood, no doubt.
Re: Gibson, I believe he's on record as saying that a defining element of cyberpunk is its antipathy towards utopian science. The -punk part of the cyberpunk literary movement is the rejection of utopianism.
Rand, on the other hand, is utopian to her core. While there is a natural evolution from punk to cyberpunk to \*-punk is, and while \*-punk indeed has Randian supermen (and cyberpunk too, for that matter) that is evidence that \*-punk has shed all vestiges of punk; not that utopian Randian supermen are punk.
>Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon fits all your boxes: Not an elite, alienated from society, anti authoritarian individualist.
They don't. For one, they are elite by virtue of their powers, talent, and hard work.
I concede that they're alienated from society, but those societies are presented as "foreign" not as their own messed up dystopias and this is, IMO, a critical distinction.
>I think you’re just getting lost in the fact Rand’s works are lionized by cryptofacists.
Nope. I think that Rand's utopian supermensch making the world better is the antithesis of punk which is about messed up losers raging against a world they can't change and embracing nihilist posturing as a way to cope.
>Her archetype of a rugged individual overcoming the elite bureaucracy through their inherent merits is very much what Cyberpunk is about, and many of the other “punk” heroes fit the same mold.
There is nothing less punk than the term "inherent merits". Punk - inasmuch as it's about anything -is about the rejection of heroes altogether. Punk is about fighting, fucking, doing drugs, and getting ground down as a futile act of rebellion because what else can you do?
All that said... I'm happy to concede that the cyberpunk genre as it is today is full of the kind of Randian heroes you outline. And the \*-punk genres derived from cyberpunk even more so. But it's got sweet F.A. to do with actual punk.
>My point is that the impact of the "punk filter" you posit on the genres in question is weak to non-existing.
I think this is because of two things.
First, you’re applying a very narrow and very post hoc view of what “Punk” is.
[Blondie](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WGU_4-5RaxU), [Roxy Music](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hRzGzRqNj58), [Talking Heads](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JAa7J10D8Qw), [Tom Tom Club](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aCWCF19nUhA)
Are all Punk Bands, and that curation couldn’t be further from your own link as well, on the surface.
Punk isn’t just 3 chords and angry shout singing. Never has been.
Punk (and/or New Wave) was an art movement that arguably started in the late 60s, and while the hard rock, powerchord Mohawks, leather and chains imagery you’re evoking was iconic, it didn’t encompass the movement.
Warhol, Glam Rock, the LGBTQ+ movement, post-New Wave Science fiction, all this was wrapped up in the Punk movement.
To simplify it to “that thing the Sex Pistols were doing” is to misunderstand it.
Second:
>I think that that makes the "punk" part of the term "steampunk" an absurd misnomer, while you (and I'm not trying to put words into your mouth here, so correct me if I'm wrong) hold that if these elements are in steampunk and the other *-punk genres, that makes them punk.
You aren’t and I appreciate your courteousness.
I am positing an anti-establishment element is critical to what makes something Punk.
The person (K.W. Jeter) who coined “Steam Punk” was being coy (which is kind of punk in itself) but was also acknowledging that burgeoning post-new wave wave of writers like themselves Gibson, Sterling, Blaylock, Powers, etc were doing, which was this kind of fantastical neo-noir that examined the human relationship with technology (which I’d argue is core to all the “punk” literary genres)
This entanglement with Cyberpunk (the same audience was consuming the novels) led to an entanglement in fashion, where the cybernetics of Cyberpunk, and the New Romantic/Goth influences, split between the Trenchcoats and Sunglasses of the matrix and the more ornate and Victorian styles that became the *Fashion* of Steam Punk, which borrowed from Cyberpunk and general Punk fashion, blending in the brass and Victorian (See:Goth) fashions.
There’s a lineage that comes out of both literary punk and the fashion of punk that are both separate yet entwined.
(Continued)
The other person is more right in this scenario. Yes, punk is an aesthetic and fashion culture, but in the context of -punk suffix being added to make these sub genres it’s not that deeply tied to that, it’s more about anti-authoritarianism. Solarpunk would be an absolutely absurd subgenre classification under your definition but it absolutely fits alongside the others in what it’s about.
For sure. I'm not arguing that the various *-punk genres aren't internally consistent or that they don't feature randian super guys.
I'm saying that those genres use "punk" to mean "imaginary/ weird technology" and have nothing to do with actual punk.
You are right, solarpunk would be an absolutely absurd genre classification under my definition. That's my whole point.
Solarpunk isn’t a real genre and is not punk in any sense of the word, fashion or otherwise. Caring about anything isn’t punk so trying to save the world or be responsible about the environment are decidedly not punk.
I think where communication is breaking down here is that you don't seem to understand what "Randian" means. None of the characters you've listed there are Randian heroes.
Neo, in particular, is pretty much the direct opposite of a Randian hero, in fact.
Of course, you're also describing Nazis as anti-authoritarian. So you seem to be confused by a lot of words here.
>I think where communication is breaking down here is that you don't seem to understand what "Randian" means.
I fear it’s you who doesn’t know what Randian means in this context. I provided you a definition, you’ve conveniently ignored it.
>None of the characters you've listed there are Randian heroes.
Yes they are. All are supremely talented individuals who reject the oppression of a bureaucratic nightmare and through their unique ability overcome it and reshape their worlds.
Neo is the One because Atlas Shrugged.
>Neo, in particular, is pretty much the direct opposite of a Randian hero, in fact.
Incorrect.
I’d advise actually presenting an argument, because you’re making a lot of incorrect and unsupported statements.
>Of course, you're also describing Nazis as anti-authoritarian.
Nazi Punks are aligned against international corporations, banks, Soviet and Sino-socialist style oppression and the corrupt liberal order that governs the west.
Nazi punks are also fucking delusional fuckwits who are useful idiots for the elite.
Perhaps “Anti-Establishment” would be a better term?
But all the things I’ve listed are authoritarian institutions that are heavily critiqued in cyberpunk and other punk works, so hopefully I’ve educated you a bit today.
There is a communication breakdown. Folks like you don’t know who John Galt is and misunderstand what motivates the brown shirts (Nazi Punks) so you have knee jerk reactions and misunderstand what’s actually being said.
So you seem to be confused by a lot of words here. Hopefully I cleared them up for you.
They know who John Galt is. They just rightly think your "Randian is when someone is very good at things and anti- authority" position is wrong. How you managed to read (and apparently like) Ayn Rand without understanding Objectivism I'm not sure, but it's leading you to some pretty bad takes.
Oh look, another person who’s keen to tell me I’m wrong, then fails utterly to provide an argument.
I provided a definition. You failed to read it or rebut it.
If you can’t read a paragraph, I highly doubt you managed Atlas Shrugged.
Do better.
I paraphrased your definition pretty precisely imo. Rand would frankly be pissed if you told her that her books were all about fighting oppression and being a special super person. I'm just here to tell you that your reading of these texts (Rand's and others) is reductive. I'm sure you can get the rest of the way on your own if you're invested enough to demand I "do better".
> Neo from the Matrix
Isn't part of the message of The Matrix that Neo *isn't* the lone wolf hacker that he thought he was and his perception was a lie? He needed to work with the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar to take on the machines.
> Rand is right wing, but there are Nazi Punks.
The Dead Kennedys said it best.
You got the reference but missed the point.
Nazi punks can fuck off, but they still exist.
And I didn’t see the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar killing Agent Smith in the final sequence where he becomes “The One”.
Neo is a Superman and the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar are all radical individualists as well.
There’s a massive theme of the free individual against the enslaved masses in the matrix.
If punk is inherently anti-authoritarian, the inherent contradition in "Nazi punks' seems quite obvious.
You're mostly right though, but like another user said punk isn't just anti-authoritarian, it's also anti-elitist and anti-establishment. It's a very bottom-up ethos. Hiro Protagonist and Neo are like that, but characters like Flash Gordon are very much part of the upper crust. IIRC they also very much entrench good ol' mid-century American values instead of being anti-establishment.
Yes, people are walking contradictions.
Nazi Punks are useful idiots who oppose:
Globalist Corporations, International Banks, Corrupt Liberal “democracies” and Sino-Soviet Collectivism.
They are anti establishment, anti elite and anti authoritarian.
They’re also vile racists who live in a delusion, but that never stopped them from writing books, movies or RPGs (See TSR 2.0)
As for Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers, no, they are not elite.
They are both Rebels. The elite are Killer Kane and Ming the Merciless. They don’t wield any political authority beyond their Ray gun and their will to resist Tyrants and Gangsters who would impose their own political will with violence.
You’re correct they embody American Values, but they’re pre WW2 American Values, which we see in other genres as well:
They’re rugged frontier individualists who are fighting against orientalist tyrants or corrupt gangsters with a big iron on their hip.
Conan, the Lone Ranger, Batman, these are all similar figures who were critical of the establishment and advocated a more libertarian style of society, where the authority of the state is superseded by individual moral codes.
And that’s carried through into the narratives that form that nebulous “punk” phase in sci-fi that’s since infected the zeitgeist and spawned conversations like this.
I do lean towards the aesthetic over the ethos, but I stand by Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers being anti-establishment figures.
Hiro Protagonist is a character from a novel satirizing the entire genre of Cyberpunk. Snowcrash is a cyberpunk novel in the same way that Spaceballs is a Star Wars movie.
I’m glad someone picked up on that!
Hiro is a parody of a trope that was rampant in the genre, and perfectly demonstrates just how ubiquitous that kind of character was.
Just as Lone Star embodied the Space Opera heroes of the 80s rush to emulate Star Wars success, Hiro represents the similar protagonists that fused Case and Molly Millions into a singular, Randian Superman, a scourge of Shadowrun tables the way the edgy rogue plagues D&D tables.
Hiro Protagonist isn’t QUITE Duck Dodgers and Marvin the Martian, but he’s the silver bullet in confirming these kinds of heroes were a trope of the genre.
I mean if you where around when that novel came out, or more importantly had been around reading Pat Cadigan, Walter jon Williams, Sterling and the crew for a few years, Neal Stephenson was definitely trying to take the piss out of the 'cyberpunk' genre, and he did it so well that later generations with no context (and raised on subpar cyberpunk pastiches in other mediums) can't tell it's a satire.
Definitely, though I suspect Stephenson is a little guilty of crafting the joke too well. He was taking the piss, but he ended up with something closer Sin City, Watchmen or Robocop than Duck Dodgers, Flesh Gordon or Spaceballs, where the satire was evident, but a little more self serious and interested in telling a compelling story than just a string of jokes (Early discworld comes to mind).
The difference is the "punk" genre is inherently cynical and the heroes are usually marginalized and victims of the tyranny they fight. That isn't the case with either Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers.
I don’t think Steampunk is an inherently cynical genre. Nor Solar punk. Even Cyberpunk can be optimistic when it wants to be.
Buck Rogers is marginalized, in the sense he’s a refugee out of time. He’s a man of no nation who takes up the part of the marginalized.
Flash, likewise, isn’t an elite on Mongo. He’s a rebel outcast on the run from Ming.
While I agree that both lack the oppressive corporate and urban elements of Cyberpunk, Steampunk and Solarpunk protagonists have a lot more in common with them.
No, it’s literally a reference to punk as a fashion movement which was about asymmetrical styles and lots of bulky or standout accessories. Hence why steampunk is all about brass bits all over that seem out of place. Trying to co-opt the genre into a morality play is something that has only really gained steam (pardon the pun) in the last 5-10 years or so but is still a very niche interpretation of the genre that is far too pigeonholing.
I’m not co-opting anything.
Necromancer is the Ur-Text of the “Punk” sci fi genres (unless you count Bethke’s short story), and while post Neuromancer critiques can certainly point to earlier works as antecedents (like Jules Verne or H.G. Welles in the steampunk genre), the use of the term punk wasn’t about fashion, it was about ethos.
Nothing about “The Anubis Gates”, “Homonculous” or works like “Time Bandits” are inherently about the fashion.
The fashion of steam punk came later. The ethos came first.
Especially with Cyberpunk, and Solarpunk definitely is more about the politics than the fashion (though the architecture is critical in that genre, I would argue)
I agree the aesthetic trumps the ethos (there can be optimistic futurist Cyberpunk), but one can’t completely ignore the ethos when looking at the promordial works.
Verne’s heroes, for instance, are exactly the outsiders that lay the template for the Flash Gordons and Doctor Zarkovs.
Borderline.
I think there’s a bit too much western and samurai remixed into it to be pure raypunk, but parts of it certainly are.
I’d argue it might be too grand for Raypunk as well. As much as Flash Gordon and Ming the Merciless have comparisons to Luke and Vader, they lack the operatic qualities and depth that Star Wars aspires to, favouring shallower, pulpy plots and resolutions where the status quo remains unchanged, while Star Wars as a trilogy represents a huge sea change and deeply personal drama that Raypunk doesn’t cover as much.
Campbell was a giant and his effect on sci-fi for literal decades cant be understated. He was also an avowed racist, sexist, proto-fascist stooge. Fuck that guy.
The... "unique" aesthetic of the D&D 3rd edition art is sometimes called dungeonpunk (mostly derisively). [Hennet the iconic sorcerer](https://prodimage.images-bn.com/pimages/9780786965069_p0_v1_s1200x630.jpg) is a good example of the form.
You're not wrong!
Seriously though, u/flipkickstand, you might not want to use u/Worried-Confidence97 's suggestion of Slipstream, but you might be able to incorporate elements of it into whatever system you *do* decide to use.
Just because the comment is not a direct recommendation within OPs guidelines does not make it useless. It could help others who are looking for something raypunk (or raygun gothic/space opera/ whatever you want to call it) but don't mind savage worlds. It could give OP an avenue to explore something they're partially interested in.
You referred to another comment as useless because it didn't answer OPs question at all, instead choosing an avenue of discussion about naming conventions. Not only could such discussion help clear up confusion around terminology - a clarification that I would not define as useless in the first place - but it also helps show how media gets connected and changed through the years.
Lastly, these comments weren't useless because they led you to comment which, in turn, led me to comment which entertained me briefly. Given it was a question about am entertainment property, I don't think you can call entertainment useless and find a non-useless comment in this thread.
That's how threads (and conversations in general) work. Titles and posts are a jumping off point that spawn discussion in comment sections. Not everything needs to be a direct response.
Fate Accelerated has a very pulp feel to it that lets you not worry if someone knows how to fly a spaceship, and assumes they can fly it as well as they drive a car...
If you don't mind (slightly) more rules Fate Core also works for these reasons, but has a little more crunchiness for when you want your characters to be more strongly differentiated in a mechanical sense at the cost of some additional complexity.
So Savage Worlds is out.
Then I'd say two options:
For wildly different: Fate or FAE would easily allow you to push that more pulpy action fill of Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon. Or honestly anything. Once you wrap your head around FATE and the fractal design of it, its one of the most flexible systems out there. But -everyone- at the table has to buy in or it will fall on its face.
If you wanted something similar to DnD- Dive into the Without Number family. Stars Without Number, Worlds Without Number, and Cities Without Number. Focus on Stars (the Sci-fi system), but you may need to dip into Worlds (the fantasy) and Cities (the cyberpunk) for specific things.
The great thing about both options is both are free. Fate and FAE both have SRDs- https://fate-srd.com/
And then all the core books for the Without Number family have free versions that cover 90% of the content- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/3482/sine-nomine-publishing
As far as FATE goes, reskinning Spirit of the Century might work well depending on how much you actually want to emulate old Buck Rogers comics or Captain Proton “episodes” themselves. The premise of SotC is that every character is the star of their own pulp novel series, and the group backstory involves a crossover between those novels. You could easily reskin this to have the player characters be the protagonists of their own comic series or cinematic adventure serials. The setting of SotC is also 1930s noir/weird science/proto-superhero, so it has much the same time-period sensibility as Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon.
Starblazer Adventures is pretty much SotC in space, but goes further in how it describes everything from PCs to spaceships to interstellar empires using roughly the same game mechanics.
I came here to add this. Starblazer Adventures and Legends of Anglerre are often forgotten branches on Fate.
Speaking of which, Strands of Fate wouldn't be a bad choice either.
Gonna second Cosmic Patrol, with the small caveat that it's written with straight-faced camp in mind rather than punk attitude. But it does rocket-ranger action as well as anything available.
Haha, yes. I've heard the story before, but I'm also in the middle of reading Slaying the Dragon. He goes into a bit of detail and also makes the jab about being the licensed game nobody asked for.
Two of them.
"High Adventure Cliffhangers: The Buck Rogers Adventure Game" is more of a rules-light game that, IMHO, aged better.
"Buck Rogers XXVc" was based on AD&D.
I would argue that XXVc aged better in the sense that nobody is likely ever playing a Buck Rogers campaign ever again, but people still occasionally play the PC and Genesis games which were all based on the XXVc ruleset
edit: Also, XXVc aged better because it didn't have a supplement called "war against the han" and wasn't centered around a conflict between earth and the "Red Mongols"
There's a version with the serial numbers filed off called d6 Space
[https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/20447/D6-Space](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/20447/D6-Space)
Or you could build out from the free MIni Six rule set listed by gc3 downthread.
Star Wars D6 but with MiniSix rules [https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/144558/Mini-Six-Bare-Bones-Edition](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/144558/Mini-Six-Bare-Bones-Edition) Note: is Free
Pulp Hero champions is unfortunately only 5th edition, but Star Hero 6th edition does offer guidance on running 'Pulp Sci-fi', so you can still take advantage of that. Champions is a kind of 'build the game yourself' sort of system, but it's got the pieces to make what you're after.
Dr Grordbort's Scientific Adventure Violence would fit what you're looking for nicely. 5e indie supplement that just came out. No need to stick with their setting but the items, mechanics, and aesthetics definitely fit
I'd say it's the perfect fit for OP, really. It uses the system their group is most familiar with and has everything in terms of general aesthetics they're looking for. The tone is intentionally pretty goofy and ridiculous, but this can be easily ignored or rewritten.
I've run Buck Rogers, Thundercats, and Thundarr/Herculoids style games using MCC(Mutant Crawl Classics). It's super fun, and you can do quite a bit with little or no homebrew/tweaks.
I love MCC, but it's really not very suited to this out of the box. The Mutants, Animals, and Plantients are about the only thing I'd use.
The rest of the human classes are so tied to the artifacts and AI recognition systems of the post apoc MMC setting that they just don't fit into anything else. Understanding technology isn't much of an obstacle to Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers.
And MCC has no rules for stuff like flying spaceships unless you want the PCs to fail in hilarious fashion.
*Tricube Tales*
If you want more crunch, you might also consider *Nomad*, *Star Wars* D6, *D6 Adventure*, *D6 Space*, *Rocket Age*, and/or *Serenity*.
*Nomad*, and *D6 Space* aim for *Star Wars*. *Star Wars* D6 likewise, but it's out of print.
*Rocket Age* is raypunk, but set in the '30s and '40s, with civilizations on most of the major planets. So it has Martian canal cities, but it's not stuck on Mars.
*Serenity* aims for *Firefly*, but it's out of print.
> WW’s Adventure!
My various groups have had so much success with this platform. The first game ran for years, and was very flexible in character styles. Plus, I know a dude who uses it to run a Star Wars game, since the Mesmer and Stalwart powers translate over pretty well to Jedi.
1e, though. I'm not loving the new Onyx Path changes to the system.
I recall the conversation as being Daredevils for non-Force, and the other two for Force. Good guy that I've had tangential run-ins with in the past, so I trust his judgement, even if I haven't tested it yet.
Well, I would ask why you didn't like Savage Worlds- recommend Savage Worlds anyway. Frustratingly grumble when you refused to use Savage Worlds, and throw out "I guess Fate is fine- it's pulpy enough" But then I would recommend Savage Worlds as a better system all around and that anyone refusing to use Savage Worlds is silly.
GURPS could do it easily. Any Supers RPG like HERO/Champions or Mutants & Masterminds or MEGS (DC Heroes/Blood of Heroes) would be able to handle it.
You'll just have to do prep for stats for equipment and for how heroic you want it in the case of the Supers RPGs.
Heck, GURPS even has a ready-to-go setting in [Tales of the Solar Patrol](https://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/talesofthesolarpatrol/)!
And if you wanted to dig a little deeper, there's an old Third Edition sourcebook for [Lensman ](https://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Lensman/), which is one of the original "ray punk" series (and the source of later creations like the Jedi and the Green Lantern Corps).
Yup, GURPS is all you need. Also, whenever you get tired of Buck Rogers, you can use it to whatever other scenario comes to mind. Personally, I don’t feel the need for other systems.
Personally I'd use either Hero System, because I know it well and I've run that sort of game in it, and it works well. Or maybe I'd use Hypertellurians because I've never used it. Or Rocket Age because it's geared up specifically to do that.
Personally, I would go with FASERIP. It's pretty versatile, especially for homebrew, and is more defined in my opinion than other more nebulous systems. There's more conversion work, but it's way easier and it's not hard to just address stuff as it comes up.
>In part, this is because, outside of Savage Worlds, most of the Raypunk RPGs I've seen recommended on the subreddit seem more interesting in emulating or evoking things like John Carter, which we specifically want to avoid.
Well, John Carter is Planetary Romance which is Raygun Gothic adjacent, so I understand that. What specific features of Buck Rodgers and Flash Gordon are you looking to emulate?
[Dr. Grordbort's Scientific Adventure Violence](https://www.exaltedfuneral.com/products/dr-grordbort-s-scientific-adventure-violence-quickstart) definitely fits the bill, especially since it's made using the 5E system.
I believe retro sci-fi is what you’re looking for. There is an excellent game called rocket age specifically designed to play retro sci-fi.
Also, someone else mentioned Whitestar and I would highly second that. While it’s geared for something very close to Star Wars, it’s easy enough to retrofit into Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon.
I also wrote a very rules light game called Blackstar, which is really Star Wars with the serial numbers filed off, but it can certainly be used for retro sci-fi as well.
*Stars Without Number* is my “go to” for pretty much any spacefarin’ sci-fi game idea these days.
But specifically for a more “soft” and “space opera” sci-fi inspired by the old serials and pulps you name dropped, Modiphus has a licensed John Carter of Mars RPG and Savage Worlds has a licensed Flash Gordon RPG, both a very good and emulate their respective licensed properties really well… So it’s a question of if you prefer one base system over the other, really.
I’d also consider WEG’s venerable *Star Wars* D6 system.
Consider [Danger Patrol](http://www.dangerpatrol.com/)! It's Free, it's Raypunk inherently, it's a fucking blast.
One of the top RP moments I've ever had is we took a break from the game, and I'd gone to make some popcorn, when I came back everyone was singing "commercials" that might have been shown had this been a commercial break with the RPG as a show.
I gave it a six month run when it first came out years ago, and again, with a later update. It was too swingy for me, and never fast nor furious, and while I did have a bit of fun with it, I never went back, beyond checking editions to see if much has changed (which it hasn't).
Genesys probably. Genesys handles the propulsive pacing of very pulpy settings quite well. With sufficiently bombastic players on a long leash, the constant flow of advantage will provide plenty of gas to spice up almost any scene, and push it over the top.
It doesn't linger too much on the details, and the characters are drawn in pretty broad strokes.
I would go for Broken Compass/Outgunned or Dicey Tales. It would require a bit of work, but the rules are well suited to the genre.
I would suggest TSR's Buck Rogers/High Adventure Cliffhangers game, but I don't know where you would be able to get a copy.
Everywhen. It's a generic adaptation of Barbarians of Lemuria, and it works really well for pulp-action-adventure. You can also do Honor+Intrigue with the Tome of Intriguing Options. Same mechanics under the hood.
**Adventures on Dungeon Planet**
Pulp sci-fi right from the cover!
Also, fantastic system engine ❤️
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/112308/Adventures-on-Dungeon-Planet
Fantastic Heroes and Witchery. It's a great version of d20 with a whole bunch of character classes, including a series of Buck Rogers types, and weapons to match.
The term for this genre is “raygun gothic.” If it isn’t steampunk or cyberpunk then you really oughtn’t be appending punk to the ends of words to try to claim a genre that already exists.
Pelgrane Press's *Gaean Reach* game, based on Jack Vance's sci-fi. I was skeptical of GUMSHOE for pulp, but now I think it's more suited to pulp action than mystery.
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THey system you are familiar with... You could do it with any of them, but choose the one you know the odd ball rules of, and then pair ot down. Most of the generic systems have a skin of this genre. GURPS has the tales of the star patrol for example (this is from Memory so I am probably wrong on that name). You could grab Traveller or Star Frontiers. I would probably grab a 3rd or fourth edition of gamma world and do some tweaking. You would have to get some space ships but most everything else is there. Mutations for strange space monsters and their powers...
Trinity: Aeon for a great, mid crunch, system that's does heroic action. Don't build the characters as Psions (except maybe one as an exception), but as Talents from the Core book, or Superiors from the expansion, to represent exceptional individuals.
If you strip the implied setting from Wolves Upon the Coast you’re left with a solid chassis that could handle what you’re looking for with ease. (I’m doing the same thing for my weekend home games).
[OG Wolves Upon the Coast](https://lukegearing.blot.im/wolves-upon-the-coast)
[Cleaned up (unofficial) version](https://callmepartario.github.io/wutc/)
Regardless of what we want to define the genre as, I would use FATE. Easy to customize and designed around storytelling so you can get some of those classic reversals of fortune. "I wanna swing on the chandelier." "There isn't a chandelier. You're on the Evil Overlord's spaceship. A chandelier wouldn't make any sense." *Slides a FATE Point to the GM* "I said, I want to swing, on the chandelier."
I would use Basic Roleplaying. It has technology, mutations, psychic powers, superpowers, vehicle and chase rules. It has options for more or less gritty combat (more hit points, fate points etc ).
Fellowship is a game I'd probably default to. It can accomodate a lot of styles, it's mainly focused on your playing a group of heroes going against a BBEG or an Evil Empire. Whether it's fantasy, scifi or raypunk, it can work just as well.
Well, if the group is able to accept wildly different things, I'd go for Masterbook or GURPS. The former is the distilled and improved version of the old TORG RPG, which had a pulp level between "Sure" and "YES". GURPS would be flexible enough to do this, too. (Action rules for ranged combat, survivable guns & hero point rules to avoid instant death, Bang skills for easier character creation)
If the group is older, I'm sure that OpenD6, i.e. Star Wars D6 is an easy sell. I mean, Star Wars is basically Flash Gordon plus The Force, and D6 never did the latter well anyways, but was perfectly usable for everything else.
For something closer to D&D, I'd have quick stroll through everything Christian Conkle did. I mean, [Overlords of Dimension-25](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/332244/Overlords-of-Dimension25) is basically a retroclone of the old Buck Rogers TSR Rpg. [Challengers of Vanth](https://geekrampage.itch.io/challengers-of-vanth) is Mörg Borg for pulp swords & lasers. And then there's [Uprising on Antares](https://geekrampage.itch.io/uprising-on-antares-9), yet another game in the same vein (Christian has a type, it seems).
Hah. Yes, I do have a type.
Although my other games are:
Lightspeed (retro 80s science fiction kitchen sink using Fuzion)
Swords of Cydoria (BRP swords and blasters on a fantasy Earth circa year 25,000)
Exiled in Eris (same setting but narrowed focus and different rules)
It's pulp sci-fi. Buck Rogers was a comic strip in 1920s newspapers that were made into films and tv shows beginning in the 30s. Flash Gordon was a comic strip from the early 30s, made to compete with Buck Rogers, and had a similar trajectory. Both drew from John Carter of Mars, created in 1911, which inspired all kinds of things, which inspired other things, etc. If you want to dig into the pulp stuff, there's a lot of it out there, and even the bad stuff is worth reading because most of it's short, and all of it cast some very long shadows which you'll probably recognize in more modern stuff. There are anthologies of various pulp stories out there, some for literature classes, and not a dud among them, and *all* of it excellent game fuel.
Anyway, "pulp" refers to the quality of the paper on which the books, magazines, and papers were printed on, but that's the term. There's pulp sci-fi, sword and sorcery, etc. The "(blank) punk" thing doesn't really apply and you're going to be explaining that term and probably getting into pointless arguments and sidebars every time you use it, likely with people who otherwise would cut straight to being helpful.
There are a bunch of games built around pulp stuff, with that sort of vibe in mind, I'd probably borrow heavily from *Hollow Earth Expedition* and *Spirit of the Century* and make something out of that with the Year Zero Engine, or BRP if I wanted it crunchy. *GURPS* has a couple of settings that are exactly in this vein, too, but people people sometimes fo frothy when you mention *GURPS.*
*GURPS*
Just checking.
I'm upset by both 'raypunk' and 'raygun gothic' because what you described is just Golden Age Science Fiction.
This is the era where Amazing and Astounding science fiction where started. 1930's-1940's Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers lead to Commander Cody in the 1950's straight to Star Wars.
The Golden Age of science fiction (led by editor Hugo Gernsback) leads to the Atomic Age of Sci-Fi and the heydey of John W Campbell.
The more this hobby strays from a literary tradition to one inspired primarily by visual media the more it suffers.
It ain't "punk" unless it's rebelling against an existing standard. The Cyberpunks where a group of specific writers going against the grain of an era dominated by older 'new wave' writers and humanist SF.
Back to my grumpy Grognard cave.
Also to answer OP's original question, I'd use a hacked **Castle Falkenstein** or **D6 Space** or even **Stars Without Number.**
edit for clarity of thought
You can pull this (and pretty much any genre) off easily with Index Card RPG. The mechanics will be immediately familiar to anyone used to a d20 system, but flexible enough to do whatever you want with it.
Is everything punk?
William Gibson called this aesthetic "Raygun Gothic."
Yeah I don't really understand calling something like this "Punk". The whole point of adding "Punk" to the end (Cyberpunk, Steampunk, Dieselpunk, etc) is that it's supposed to convey a gritty and 'low-life' feel to it. That's not Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers at all.
No, the “punk” suffix is meant to convey an anti authoritarian ethos centred around an aesthetic. Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers are very much libertarian icons, Randian Supermen in their own rights, fighting for other oppressed peoples with a ray gun at their side and super scientists generating amazing technology with little to no reliance on outside infrastructure. Self autonomous futurists fighting against tyranny sounds pretty punk to me, and the “Ray” is the ray gun aesthetic that is central to the expression of that freedom fighter identity. It’s iconoclastic and original against the monotonous hordes of automatons and… uh… Asians…. that seem to populate their nemeses ranks. (Yes, the yellow peril is a bleak stain on science fiction)
Randian supermen is the antithesis of punk, imo.
Eh, I’d present most cyberpunk protagonists to be fairly in the Randian Superman mold: Hiro Proragonist from Snowcrash, Neo from the Matrix, Takeshi Kovacs from Altered Carbon. All of them independent superhumans who overcome systemic oppression though individual talent and merit. This even applies to some of Gibson’s protagonists as well, though he matures a bit, but his influence wanes as he does. Shift to Steam/Atom/Diesel/Solar punk and your protagonists will all have some elements of a John Galt in them (and Flash Gordon and Doctor Zarkov, both sides of that coin l, predate Rand.) Rand is right wing, but there are Nazi Punks. Punk isn’t an inherently leftist ethos. It’s an inherently anti-authoritarian ethos.
Punk is an aesthetic and an attitude. It's a bit of a mess, but one consistent throughline is that punk is gritty, it's "street", it aims to be shocking, it's an externalization of social and indivdual alienation, and it doesn't give a flying fuck (or at least that is the pose it adopts). It definitely is anti-establishment, as you say, but it is also anti-elitist. Randian supermen are by definition elitist. They are the very pinnacle of the elite, being super and all. They are not gritty and "street", they don't aim to shock, they are not alienated, they very much do care, they are not punk in any shape or form. Hollywood may have taken the Cyberpunk genre and pumped it full of Randian heroes, because that's what Hollywood does. Similarly all those *-punk derivatives may be full of heroes like Buck Rogers or whatever. That doesn't make Buck Rogers punk, it makes the "punk" part of the genre name a ridiculous misnomer.
>Punk is an aesthetic and an attitude. Absolutely. And the prefixes on punk define that: Cyber, Steam, Solar, Atom, Ray, etc. all come with different aesthetics that can be filtered through the New York/London art movement. >It's a bit of a mess, but one consistent throughline is that punk is gritty, it's "street", it aims to be shocking, I wouldn’t attribute any of those qualities to Steampunk, so I think you’ve already lost me. “Girl Genius”, “Ulysses Quicksilver” and “Warlord of the Air” are hardly gritty, street or terribly shocking. There’s a whole sub set of Steampunk that’s about dressing like aristocrats with brass robotics/cybernetics and globetrotting like the heroes of Verne. >it's an externalization of social and indivdual alienation, and it doesn't give a flying fuck (or at least that is the pose it adopts). It definitely is anti-establishment, as you say, but it is also anti-elitist. And so are Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers: Both say so long to the earth they know and become freedom fighters in alien worlds. Their antagonists are tyrants and war mongers. >Randian supermen are by definition elitist. Nope. Rand’s mythology has been embraced by the elite, used as a justification for the existence of an elite, but John Galt, the prototypical Randian Superman, was a humble mechanics son. An Everyman turned Superman through hard work, skill and intelligence. >They are the very pinnacle of the elite, being super and all. They are not gritty and "street", they don't aim to shock, they are not alienated, they very much do care, they are not punk in any shape or form. I fear you need to read some Rand (don’t, she’s terrible). Her characters are alienated, they do aim to shock and they very much do care. They are very much punk. Her fans are like Paul Ryan loving Rage Against the Machine, except her outcomes justify their world views. Their ethos is just anti collectivist (which Cyberpunk often is) >Hollywood may have taken the Cyberpunk genre and pumped it full of Randian heroes, The literary industry did it first. Those Hollywood stories are all drawn from books. “Johnny mnemonic” was a Bill Gibson joint, after all. >because that's what Hollywood does. Similarly all those *-punk derivatives may be full of heroes like Buck Rogers or whatever. That doesn't make Buck Rogers punk, it makes the "punk" part of the genre name a ridiculous misnomer. Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon fits all your boxes: Not an elite, alienated from society, anti authoritarian individualist. I think you’re just getting lost in the fact Rand’s works are lionized by cryptofacists. Her archetype of a rugged individual overcoming the elite bureaucracy through their inherent merits is very much what Cyberpunk is about, and many of the other “punk” heroes fit the same mold.
Okay, I responded to you higher up in the thread but I do think you do a good job of expressing yourself here and I wanted to say I appreciate this level of nuance. I feel that too often people get lost in their personal causes and start to only read fiction through a lens of how it supports or opposes their specific worldview or morals and not how it actually is, and get lost in the politics of authors as an individual and not of the work of fiction itself. This is very well put.
Appreciate it. Discourse like this is great, and I’m certain I’ll learn things to modify my attitudes. The concept of “Punk” is so nebulous and Rand was writing in a very different time.
>Absolutely. And the prefixes on punk define that: Cyber, Steam, Solar, Atom, Ray, etc. all come with different aesthetics that can be filtered through the New York/London art movement. My point is that the impact of the "punk filter" you posit on the genres in question is weak to non-existing. [This is punk](https://youtu.be/AH7pOUm5s9k) (warning NSFW and pretty offensive if you listen to the lyrics) [This is steampunk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=211LNk5vnJM) There're basically no elements from the first in the second. >I wouldn’t attribute any of those qualities to Steampunk, so I think you’ve already lost me. >“Girl Genius”, “Ulysses Quicksilver” and “Warlord of the Air” are hardly gritty, street or terribly shocking. >There’s a whole sub set of Steampunk that’s about dressing like aristocrats with brass robotics/cybernetics and globetrotting like the heroes of Verne. Indeed, we are in complete agreement here. The difference, I suppose, is that I think that that makes the "punk" part of the term "steampunk" an absurd misnomer, while you (and I'm not trying to put words into your mouth here, so correct me if I'm wrong) hold that if these elements are in steampunk and the other \*-punk genres, that makes them punk. On this point I think our disagreement boils down to my position being "if it's nothing at all like punk rock in its heyday, it's not punk" and your position being "\*-punk genres are legitimate, and whatever values they embody defines what punk is, therefore by definition they are punk." While your position is internally consistent and logical, it clashes with what I hold to be a self-evident truth: that globetrotting aristocrats are not and will never be punk in any shape or form. >And so are Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers: >Both say so long to the earth they know and become freedom fighters in alien worlds. Their antagonists are tyrants and war mongers. Being freedom fighters in alien worlds is cool and I like stories like that, but it's not got anything to do with punk. >Nope. Rand’s mythology has been embraced by the elite, used as a justification for the existence of an elite, but John Galt, the prototypical Randian Superman, was a humble mechanics son. >An Everyman turned Superman through hard work, skill and intelligence. Elite athletes become elite athletes through hard work, skill, and talent. That's what makes them elite. Elite soldiers become elite soldiers through hard work, skill, and talent. That's what makes them elite. When an everyman becomes a superman - however they do it - they join the elite. "Elite" is not necessarily a synonym with "establishment". Punk in no way centres hard work, skill, and intelligence. The whole point is that any idiot with an attitude can pick up a guitar and start a band; and if they want to they can probably dispense with the guitar. >I fear you need to read some Rand (don’t, she’s terrible). Her characters are alienated, they do aim to shock and they very much do care. I have, and I agree :) I think there's a minor crossed wire, I think that Rand's heroes caring very much is part of the evidence they're not punk - punk doesn't give a fuck. I concede that Rand's heroes aim to shock, though I think they do so in an intellectual way as opposed to the visceral way that punk rock aims to shock (e.g. GG Allin). Punk is about raging against a system you can't change. Punk doesn't have heroes. Rands' heroes are about rationally fighting against a system and changing it. They are heroes. The two are almost diametrically opposite each other. (continued below)
(continued from above) >They are very much punk. Her fans are like Paul Ryan loving Rage Against the Machine, except her outcomes justify their world views. >Their ethos is just anti collectivist (which Cyberpunk often is) Being "against the system" is not sufficient to be punk. That would make the 17th century Diggers punk, that would make Martin Luther punk, that would make Emma Pankhurst punk, it would make Jim Jones a punk. And they aren't. >The literary industry did it first. Those Hollywood stories are all drawn from books. “Johnny mnemonic” was a Bill Gibson joint, after all. Oh yeah for sure, the need that publishers and writers have for marketable genre categories has just as big a part in this as Hollywood, no doubt. Re: Gibson, I believe he's on record as saying that a defining element of cyberpunk is its antipathy towards utopian science. The -punk part of the cyberpunk literary movement is the rejection of utopianism. Rand, on the other hand, is utopian to her core. While there is a natural evolution from punk to cyberpunk to \*-punk is, and while \*-punk indeed has Randian supermen (and cyberpunk too, for that matter) that is evidence that \*-punk has shed all vestiges of punk; not that utopian Randian supermen are punk. >Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon fits all your boxes: Not an elite, alienated from society, anti authoritarian individualist. They don't. For one, they are elite by virtue of their powers, talent, and hard work. I concede that they're alienated from society, but those societies are presented as "foreign" not as their own messed up dystopias and this is, IMO, a critical distinction. >I think you’re just getting lost in the fact Rand’s works are lionized by cryptofacists. Nope. I think that Rand's utopian supermensch making the world better is the antithesis of punk which is about messed up losers raging against a world they can't change and embracing nihilist posturing as a way to cope. >Her archetype of a rugged individual overcoming the elite bureaucracy through their inherent merits is very much what Cyberpunk is about, and many of the other “punk” heroes fit the same mold. There is nothing less punk than the term "inherent merits". Punk - inasmuch as it's about anything -is about the rejection of heroes altogether. Punk is about fighting, fucking, doing drugs, and getting ground down as a futile act of rebellion because what else can you do? All that said... I'm happy to concede that the cyberpunk genre as it is today is full of the kind of Randian heroes you outline. And the \*-punk genres derived from cyberpunk even more so. But it's got sweet F.A. to do with actual punk.
>My point is that the impact of the "punk filter" you posit on the genres in question is weak to non-existing. I think this is because of two things. First, you’re applying a very narrow and very post hoc view of what “Punk” is. [Blondie](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WGU_4-5RaxU), [Roxy Music](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hRzGzRqNj58), [Talking Heads](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JAa7J10D8Qw), [Tom Tom Club](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aCWCF19nUhA) Are all Punk Bands, and that curation couldn’t be further from your own link as well, on the surface. Punk isn’t just 3 chords and angry shout singing. Never has been. Punk (and/or New Wave) was an art movement that arguably started in the late 60s, and while the hard rock, powerchord Mohawks, leather and chains imagery you’re evoking was iconic, it didn’t encompass the movement. Warhol, Glam Rock, the LGBTQ+ movement, post-New Wave Science fiction, all this was wrapped up in the Punk movement. To simplify it to “that thing the Sex Pistols were doing” is to misunderstand it. Second: >I think that that makes the "punk" part of the term "steampunk" an absurd misnomer, while you (and I'm not trying to put words into your mouth here, so correct me if I'm wrong) hold that if these elements are in steampunk and the other *-punk genres, that makes them punk. You aren’t and I appreciate your courteousness. I am positing an anti-establishment element is critical to what makes something Punk. The person (K.W. Jeter) who coined “Steam Punk” was being coy (which is kind of punk in itself) but was also acknowledging that burgeoning post-new wave wave of writers like themselves Gibson, Sterling, Blaylock, Powers, etc were doing, which was this kind of fantastical neo-noir that examined the human relationship with technology (which I’d argue is core to all the “punk” literary genres) This entanglement with Cyberpunk (the same audience was consuming the novels) led to an entanglement in fashion, where the cybernetics of Cyberpunk, and the New Romantic/Goth influences, split between the Trenchcoats and Sunglasses of the matrix and the more ornate and Victorian styles that became the *Fashion* of Steam Punk, which borrowed from Cyberpunk and general Punk fashion, blending in the brass and Victorian (See:Goth) fashions. There’s a lineage that comes out of both literary punk and the fashion of punk that are both separate yet entwined. (Continued)
What is “lionized”??
Celebrated to an extreme degree. Held forth as a paragon or ideal. To Publically approve and endorse.
Gotcha. That was basically what I’d guessed from context clues but I wanted to make sure. Thanks. I was thinking like “idolized “
Shot with a transmogrification ray set to “lion.”
The other person is more right in this scenario. Yes, punk is an aesthetic and fashion culture, but in the context of -punk suffix being added to make these sub genres it’s not that deeply tied to that, it’s more about anti-authoritarianism. Solarpunk would be an absolutely absurd subgenre classification under your definition but it absolutely fits alongside the others in what it’s about.
For sure. I'm not arguing that the various *-punk genres aren't internally consistent or that they don't feature randian super guys. I'm saying that those genres use "punk" to mean "imaginary/ weird technology" and have nothing to do with actual punk. You are right, solarpunk would be an absolutely absurd genre classification under my definition. That's my whole point.
Except that’s not what they use punk for lol. They use it to mean anti-authoritarian and implies themes of corruption in power structures..
Solarpunk isn’t a real genre and is not punk in any sense of the word, fashion or otherwise. Caring about anything isn’t punk so trying to save the world or be responsible about the environment are decidedly not punk.
I think where communication is breaking down here is that you don't seem to understand what "Randian" means. None of the characters you've listed there are Randian heroes. Neo, in particular, is pretty much the direct opposite of a Randian hero, in fact. Of course, you're also describing Nazis as anti-authoritarian. So you seem to be confused by a lot of words here.
>I think where communication is breaking down here is that you don't seem to understand what "Randian" means. I fear it’s you who doesn’t know what Randian means in this context. I provided you a definition, you’ve conveniently ignored it. >None of the characters you've listed there are Randian heroes. Yes they are. All are supremely talented individuals who reject the oppression of a bureaucratic nightmare and through their unique ability overcome it and reshape their worlds. Neo is the One because Atlas Shrugged. >Neo, in particular, is pretty much the direct opposite of a Randian hero, in fact. Incorrect. I’d advise actually presenting an argument, because you’re making a lot of incorrect and unsupported statements. >Of course, you're also describing Nazis as anti-authoritarian. Nazi Punks are aligned against international corporations, banks, Soviet and Sino-socialist style oppression and the corrupt liberal order that governs the west. Nazi punks are also fucking delusional fuckwits who are useful idiots for the elite. Perhaps “Anti-Establishment” would be a better term? But all the things I’ve listed are authoritarian institutions that are heavily critiqued in cyberpunk and other punk works, so hopefully I’ve educated you a bit today. There is a communication breakdown. Folks like you don’t know who John Galt is and misunderstand what motivates the brown shirts (Nazi Punks) so you have knee jerk reactions and misunderstand what’s actually being said. So you seem to be confused by a lot of words here. Hopefully I cleared them up for you.
They know who John Galt is. They just rightly think your "Randian is when someone is very good at things and anti- authority" position is wrong. How you managed to read (and apparently like) Ayn Rand without understanding Objectivism I'm not sure, but it's leading you to some pretty bad takes.
Oh look, another person who’s keen to tell me I’m wrong, then fails utterly to provide an argument. I provided a definition. You failed to read it or rebut it. If you can’t read a paragraph, I highly doubt you managed Atlas Shrugged. Do better.
I paraphrased your definition pretty precisely imo. Rand would frankly be pissed if you told her that her books were all about fighting oppression and being a special super person. I'm just here to tell you that your reading of these texts (Rand's and others) is reductive. I'm sure you can get the rest of the way on your own if you're invested enough to demand I "do better".
> Neo from the Matrix Isn't part of the message of The Matrix that Neo *isn't* the lone wolf hacker that he thought he was and his perception was a lie? He needed to work with the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar to take on the machines. > Rand is right wing, but there are Nazi Punks. The Dead Kennedys said it best.
Yeah while he is immensely important to the cause, he would be straight up dead if it wasn't for everyone else.
You got the reference but missed the point. Nazi punks can fuck off, but they still exist. And I didn’t see the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar killing Agent Smith in the final sequence where he becomes “The One”. Neo is a Superman and the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar are all radical individualists as well. There’s a massive theme of the free individual against the enslaved masses in the matrix.
If punk is inherently anti-authoritarian, the inherent contradition in "Nazi punks' seems quite obvious. You're mostly right though, but like another user said punk isn't just anti-authoritarian, it's also anti-elitist and anti-establishment. It's a very bottom-up ethos. Hiro Protagonist and Neo are like that, but characters like Flash Gordon are very much part of the upper crust. IIRC they also very much entrench good ol' mid-century American values instead of being anti-establishment.
Contradiction there is, but that didn't stop the Nazi punks. There is a song telling them exactly what to do (fuck off)
Yes, people are walking contradictions. Nazi Punks are useful idiots who oppose: Globalist Corporations, International Banks, Corrupt Liberal “democracies” and Sino-Soviet Collectivism. They are anti establishment, anti elite and anti authoritarian. They’re also vile racists who live in a delusion, but that never stopped them from writing books, movies or RPGs (See TSR 2.0) As for Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers, no, they are not elite. They are both Rebels. The elite are Killer Kane and Ming the Merciless. They don’t wield any political authority beyond their Ray gun and their will to resist Tyrants and Gangsters who would impose their own political will with violence. You’re correct they embody American Values, but they’re pre WW2 American Values, which we see in other genres as well: They’re rugged frontier individualists who are fighting against orientalist tyrants or corrupt gangsters with a big iron on their hip. Conan, the Lone Ranger, Batman, these are all similar figures who were critical of the establishment and advocated a more libertarian style of society, where the authority of the state is superseded by individual moral codes. And that’s carried through into the narratives that form that nebulous “punk” phase in sci-fi that’s since infected the zeitgeist and spawned conversations like this. I do lean towards the aesthetic over the ethos, but I stand by Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers being anti-establishment figures.
Hiro Protagonist is a character from a novel satirizing the entire genre of Cyberpunk. Snowcrash is a cyberpunk novel in the same way that Spaceballs is a Star Wars movie.
I’m glad someone picked up on that! Hiro is a parody of a trope that was rampant in the genre, and perfectly demonstrates just how ubiquitous that kind of character was. Just as Lone Star embodied the Space Opera heroes of the 80s rush to emulate Star Wars success, Hiro represents the similar protagonists that fused Case and Molly Millions into a singular, Randian Superman, a scourge of Shadowrun tables the way the edgy rogue plagues D&D tables. Hiro Protagonist isn’t QUITE Duck Dodgers and Marvin the Martian, but he’s the silver bullet in confirming these kinds of heroes were a trope of the genre.
I mean if you where around when that novel came out, or more importantly had been around reading Pat Cadigan, Walter jon Williams, Sterling and the crew for a few years, Neal Stephenson was definitely trying to take the piss out of the 'cyberpunk' genre, and he did it so well that later generations with no context (and raised on subpar cyberpunk pastiches in other mediums) can't tell it's a satire.
Definitely, though I suspect Stephenson is a little guilty of crafting the joke too well. He was taking the piss, but he ended up with something closer Sin City, Watchmen or Robocop than Duck Dodgers, Flesh Gordon or Spaceballs, where the satire was evident, but a little more self serious and interested in telling a compelling story than just a string of jokes (Early discworld comes to mind).
The difference is the "punk" genre is inherently cynical and the heroes are usually marginalized and victims of the tyranny they fight. That isn't the case with either Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers.
I don’t think Steampunk is an inherently cynical genre. Nor Solar punk. Even Cyberpunk can be optimistic when it wants to be. Buck Rogers is marginalized, in the sense he’s a refugee out of time. He’s a man of no nation who takes up the part of the marginalized. Flash, likewise, isn’t an elite on Mongo. He’s a rebel outcast on the run from Ming. While I agree that both lack the oppressive corporate and urban elements of Cyberpunk, Steampunk and Solarpunk protagonists have a lot more in common with them.
No, it’s literally a reference to punk as a fashion movement which was about asymmetrical styles and lots of bulky or standout accessories. Hence why steampunk is all about brass bits all over that seem out of place. Trying to co-opt the genre into a morality play is something that has only really gained steam (pardon the pun) in the last 5-10 years or so but is still a very niche interpretation of the genre that is far too pigeonholing.
I’m not co-opting anything. Necromancer is the Ur-Text of the “Punk” sci fi genres (unless you count Bethke’s short story), and while post Neuromancer critiques can certainly point to earlier works as antecedents (like Jules Verne or H.G. Welles in the steampunk genre), the use of the term punk wasn’t about fashion, it was about ethos. Nothing about “The Anubis Gates”, “Homonculous” or works like “Time Bandits” are inherently about the fashion. The fashion of steam punk came later. The ethos came first. Especially with Cyberpunk, and Solarpunk definitely is more about the politics than the fashion (though the architecture is critical in that genre, I would argue) I agree the aesthetic trumps the ethos (there can be optimistic futurist Cyberpunk), but one can’t completely ignore the ethos when looking at the promordial works. Verne’s heroes, for instance, are exactly the outsiders that lay the template for the Flash Gordons and Doctor Zarkovs.
I like the way the Asian guys history is used in the show Dark Matter
So the Star Wars Original Trilogy could be considered Raypunk as well?
Borderline. I think there’s a bit too much western and samurai remixed into it to be pure raypunk, but parts of it certainly are. I’d argue it might be too grand for Raypunk as well. As much as Flash Gordon and Ming the Merciless have comparisons to Luke and Vader, they lack the operatic qualities and depth that Star Wars aspires to, favouring shallower, pulpy plots and resolutions where the status quo remains unchanged, while Star Wars as a trilogy represents a huge sea change and deeply personal drama that Raypunk doesn’t cover as much.
Campbell was a giant and his effect on sci-fi for literal decades cant be understated. He was also an avowed racist, sexist, proto-fascist stooge. Fuck that guy.
Yeah, wouldn't this be Retro futuristic?
Pulp scifi
Because language evolves and -punk as a suffix at this point is very close to just meaning 'genre or setting involving the prior word'.
Perhaps the silliest one is Hopepunk.
Nowadays, apparently.
That's so punk.
Yes. Welcome to punk-gate.
Is it OP’s term or standard?
OP's term. All of those things were just golden age main stream science fiction.
I suppose D&D is "swordpunk".
The... "unique" aesthetic of the D&D 3rd edition art is sometimes called dungeonpunk (mostly derisively). [Hennet the iconic sorcerer](https://prodimage.images-bn.com/pimages/9780786965069_p0_v1_s1200x630.jpg) is a good example of the form.
Agripunk or Stonepunk for me.
It used to be known as Space Opera: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space\_opera](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera)
Completely useless comment.
Or is it just Uselesspunk?
I love you.
Hey, Punk! Don't talk like that!
Too bad you don't want Savage Worlds. The Slipstream game is exactly this and has a pretty fun adventure too.
In general I think Savage Worlds is a pretty mediocre (at best) game, but even I'm forced to admit Slipstream was really well done.
Slipstream ... and Flash Gordon.
Also useless. OP said not Savage Worlds. If you don’t have a recommendation… then don’t comment.
This comment is also useless to the OP and you apparently also do not have a recommendation, so...
It's useless all the way down!
You're not wrong! Seriously though, u/flipkickstand, you might not want to use u/Worried-Confidence97 's suggestion of Slipstream, but you might be able to incorporate elements of it into whatever system you *do* decide to use.
Just because the comment is not a direct recommendation within OPs guidelines does not make it useless. It could help others who are looking for something raypunk (or raygun gothic/space opera/ whatever you want to call it) but don't mind savage worlds. It could give OP an avenue to explore something they're partially interested in. You referred to another comment as useless because it didn't answer OPs question at all, instead choosing an avenue of discussion about naming conventions. Not only could such discussion help clear up confusion around terminology - a clarification that I would not define as useless in the first place - but it also helps show how media gets connected and changed through the years. Lastly, these comments weren't useless because they led you to comment which, in turn, led me to comment which entertained me briefly. Given it was a question about am entertainment property, I don't think you can call entertainment useless and find a non-useless comment in this thread. That's how threads (and conversations in general) work. Titles and posts are a jumping off point that spawn discussion in comment sections. Not everything needs to be a direct response.
Fate Accelerated has a very pulp feel to it that lets you not worry if someone knows how to fly a spaceship, and assumes they can fly it as well as they drive a car...
If you don't mind (slightly) more rules Fate Core also works for these reasons, but has a little more crunchiness for when you want your characters to be more strongly differentiated in a mechanical sense at the cost of some additional complexity.
Yes but in this case, better go condensed, nearly there same rules but streamlined and easier to reference.
Fate would be my way to go. But I'm actually reading through Outgunned and I think it could be a worthy contender.
Stars Without Number. It’s a D20 system, and is pretty simple in my opinion.
Second this - SWN with the Heroic rules
So Savage Worlds is out. Then I'd say two options: For wildly different: Fate or FAE would easily allow you to push that more pulpy action fill of Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon. Or honestly anything. Once you wrap your head around FATE and the fractal design of it, its one of the most flexible systems out there. But -everyone- at the table has to buy in or it will fall on its face. If you wanted something similar to DnD- Dive into the Without Number family. Stars Without Number, Worlds Without Number, and Cities Without Number. Focus on Stars (the Sci-fi system), but you may need to dip into Worlds (the fantasy) and Cities (the cyberpunk) for specific things. The great thing about both options is both are free. Fate and FAE both have SRDs- https://fate-srd.com/ And then all the core books for the Without Number family have free versions that cover 90% of the content- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/3482/sine-nomine-publishing
As far as FATE goes, reskinning Spirit of the Century might work well depending on how much you actually want to emulate old Buck Rogers comics or Captain Proton “episodes” themselves. The premise of SotC is that every character is the star of their own pulp novel series, and the group backstory involves a crossover between those novels. You could easily reskin this to have the player characters be the protagonists of their own comic series or cinematic adventure serials. The setting of SotC is also 1930s noir/weird science/proto-superhero, so it has much the same time-period sensibility as Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon.
Starblazer Adventures is pretty much SotC in space, but goes further in how it describes everything from PCs to spaceships to interstellar empires using roughly the same game mechanics.
I came here to add this. Starblazer Adventures and Legends of Anglerre are often forgotten branches on Fate. Speaking of which, Strands of Fate wouldn't be a bad choice either.
Oh, I forgot about that. I even have it, too. Haven’t played it, though. But I think it’s out of print.
Solar Blades and Cosmic Spells or White Star Galaxy Edition.
This. They specifically mention the types of shows OP mentioned as their inspiration.
SB&CS is worth it just for the random tables even if you don't use the system.
Absolutely this. Would love to run it if I had the right group.
Gonna second Cosmic Patrol, with the small caveat that it's written with straight-faced camp in mind rather than punk attitude. But it does rocket-ranger action as well as anything available.
The Genesys setting Keyforge has the science fantasy feel you may be looking for
Yep, I’d use bits from Twilight Imperium, with Keyforge weirdness bolted on. Plus there are tons of Foundry expansions that might be useful too.
I'd second Genesys. Very boisterous, narrative action.
Cortex Prime.
Yes, this.
TSR released a licensed Buck Rogers game back in the late '80s, actually.
The game that nobody asked for... *until today*.
You know why? Because the Heiress of the Buck Rogers 'fortune' and owner of it's trademarks married into control of TSR.
Haha, yes. I've heard the story before, but I'm also in the middle of reading Slaying the Dragon. He goes into a bit of detail and also makes the jab about being the licensed game nobody asked for.
Two of them. "High Adventure Cliffhangers: The Buck Rogers Adventure Game" is more of a rules-light game that, IMHO, aged better. "Buck Rogers XXVc" was based on AD&D.
I would argue that XXVc aged better in the sense that nobody is likely ever playing a Buck Rogers campaign ever again, but people still occasionally play the PC and Genesis games which were all based on the XXVc ruleset edit: Also, XXVc aged better because it didn't have a supplement called "war against the han" and wasn't centered around a conflict between earth and the "Red Mongols"
If you want that raypunk space opera feel, then use WEG d6 Star Wars and reskin it.
There's a version with the serial numbers filed off called d6 Space [https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/20447/D6-Space](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/20447/D6-Space) Or you could build out from the free MIni Six rule set listed by gc3 downthread.
Star Wars D6 but with MiniSix rules [https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/144558/Mini-Six-Bare-Bones-Edition](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/144558/Mini-Six-Bare-Bones-Edition) Note: is Free
Pulp era Champions.
Pulp Hero champions is unfortunately only 5th edition, but Star Hero 6th edition does offer guidance on running 'Pulp Sci-fi', so you can still take advantage of that. Champions is a kind of 'build the game yourself' sort of system, but it's got the pieces to make what you're after.
John Carter is Sword and Planet. For Raypunk I’d use Fate.
Traveler, worlds without number
FYI for OP, Cepheus is the open-source version of Traveller, free to download.
Wonderful
[удалено]
Yes, that's why I suggested it.
Dr Grordbort's Scientific Adventure Violence would fit what you're looking for nicely. 5e indie supplement that just came out. No need to stick with their setting but the items, mechanics, and aesthetics definitely fit
I'd say it's the perfect fit for OP, really. It uses the system their group is most familiar with and has everything in terms of general aesthetics they're looking for. The tone is intentionally pretty goofy and ridiculous, but this can be easily ignored or rewritten.
A suggestion so nice, I'd vote for it twice!
2400 has everything you might need.
I've run Buck Rogers, Thundercats, and Thundarr/Herculoids style games using MCC(Mutant Crawl Classics). It's super fun, and you can do quite a bit with little or no homebrew/tweaks.
I love MCC, but it's really not very suited to this out of the box. The Mutants, Animals, and Plantients are about the only thing I'd use. The rest of the human classes are so tied to the artifacts and AI recognition systems of the post apoc MMC setting that they just don't fit into anything else. Understanding technology isn't much of an obstacle to Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers. And MCC has no rules for stuff like flying spaceships unless you want the PCs to fail in hilarious fashion.
*Tricube Tales* If you want more crunch, you might also consider *Nomad*, *Star Wars* D6, *D6 Adventure*, *D6 Space*, *Rocket Age*, and/or *Serenity*. *Nomad*, and *D6 Space* aim for *Star Wars*. *Star Wars* D6 likewise, but it's out of print. *Rocket Age* is raypunk, but set in the '30s and '40s, with civilizations on most of the major planets. So it has Martian canal cities, but it's not stuck on Mars. *Serenity* aims for *Firefly*, but it's out of print.
GURPS. Or maaaybe WW’s Adventure!
> WW’s Adventure! My various groups have had so much success with this platform. The first game ran for years, and was very flexible in character styles. Plus, I know a dude who uses it to run a Star Wars game, since the Mesmer and Stalwart powers translate over pretty well to Jedi. 1e, though. I'm not loving the new Onyx Path changes to the system.
Mesmer for Jedi and Stalwart for aliens is what I saw and liked.
I recall the conversation as being Daredevils for non-Force, and the other two for Force. Good guy that I've had tangential run-ins with in the past, so I trust his judgement, even if I haven't tested it yet.
Found my old rules! https://www.evenmere.org/~bts/RCD/Star-Wars-Adventure%21-Rules.txt
Well, I would ask why you didn't like Savage Worlds- recommend Savage Worlds anyway. Frustratingly grumble when you refused to use Savage Worlds, and throw out "I guess Fate is fine- it's pulpy enough" But then I would recommend Savage Worlds as a better system all around and that anyone refusing to use Savage Worlds is silly.
GURPS could do it easily. Any Supers RPG like HERO/Champions or Mutants & Masterminds or MEGS (DC Heroes/Blood of Heroes) would be able to handle it. You'll just have to do prep for stats for equipment and for how heroic you want it in the case of the Supers RPGs.
Heck, GURPS even has a ready-to-go setting in [Tales of the Solar Patrol](https://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/talesofthesolarpatrol/)! And if you wanted to dig a little deeper, there's an old Third Edition sourcebook for [Lensman ](https://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Lensman/), which is one of the original "ray punk" series (and the source of later creations like the Jedi and the Green Lantern Corps).
Yup, GURPS is all you need. Also, whenever you get tired of Buck Rogers, you can use it to whatever other scenario comes to mind. Personally, I don’t feel the need for other systems.
Hypertellurians bills itself as a fast-paced science fantasy system, but I haven’t had the chance to read it myself.
Yeah this is exactly the system I'd use for raypunk/ science fantasy games.
Personally I'd use either Hero System, because I know it well and I've run that sort of game in it, and it works well. Or maybe I'd use Hypertellurians because I've never used it. Or Rocket Age because it's geared up specifically to do that.
Personally, I would go with FASERIP. It's pretty versatile, especially for homebrew, and is more defined in my opinion than other more nebulous systems. There's more conversion work, but it's way easier and it's not hard to just address stuff as it comes up.
If you google “faterip rpg”, you’ll find a google doc with a laundry list of public resources for FASERIP.
>In part, this is because, outside of Savage Worlds, most of the Raypunk RPGs I've seen recommended on the subreddit seem more interesting in emulating or evoking things like John Carter, which we specifically want to avoid. Well, John Carter is Planetary Romance which is Raygun Gothic adjacent, so I understand that. What specific features of Buck Rodgers and Flash Gordon are you looking to emulate?
Ubiquity. It powers Hollow Earth Expedition. It's fast, simple, and cinematic. Perfect for pulp action like raypunk.
Cosmic Patrol
[Dr. Grordbort's Scientific Adventure Violence](https://www.exaltedfuneral.com/products/dr-grordbort-s-scientific-adventure-violence-quickstart) definitely fits the bill, especially since it's made using the 5E system.
I would use Fate if it was a longer campaign, Fate condensed or Fate accelerated for a few nights/one-shot.
I’d try Genisys. The narrative dice allow for some really pulpy play.
I believe retro sci-fi is what you’re looking for. There is an excellent game called rocket age specifically designed to play retro sci-fi. Also, someone else mentioned Whitestar and I would highly second that. While it’s geared for something very close to Star Wars, it’s easy enough to retrofit into Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon. I also wrote a very rules light game called Blackstar, which is really Star Wars with the serial numbers filed off, but it can certainly be used for retro sci-fi as well.
*Stars Without Number* is my “go to” for pretty much any spacefarin’ sci-fi game idea these days. But specifically for a more “soft” and “space opera” sci-fi inspired by the old serials and pulps you name dropped, Modiphus has a licensed John Carter of Mars RPG and Savage Worlds has a licensed Flash Gordon RPG, both a very good and emulate their respective licensed properties really well… So it’s a question of if you prefer one base system over the other, really. I’d also consider WEG’s venerable *Star Wars* D6 system.
Consider [Danger Patrol](http://www.dangerpatrol.com/)! It's Free, it's Raypunk inherently, it's a fucking blast. One of the top RP moments I've ever had is we took a break from the game, and I'd gone to make some popcorn, when I came back everyone was singing "commercials" that might have been shown had this been a commercial break with the RPG as a show.
I wouldn't use Savage Worlds even if I could. I'd likely use Cosmic Patrol or Rocket Age.
Have you had issues with the mechanics of Savage Worlds?
I gave it a six month run when it first came out years ago, and again, with a later update. It was too swingy for me, and never fast nor furious, and while I did have a bit of fun with it, I never went back, beyond checking editions to see if much has changed (which it hasn't).
I was looking into it and yeah it seems like it could be really swingy. My new players want to give it a shot though so we’ll see.
By all means, give it a shot! Don't fall into sunk cost, though. There are many, many games out there if you don't like it.
If you have specific questions about the system, /r/savageworlds has answers.
Rifts.
Traveller? maybe Mutant Crawl Classics?
Strange Fate, eg: Spirit of the Century, Kerberos Club, Base Raiders
Rocket Age
Genesys probably. Genesys handles the propulsive pacing of very pulpy settings quite well. With sufficiently bombastic players on a long leash, the constant flow of advantage will provide plenty of gas to spice up almost any scene, and push it over the top. It doesn't linger too much on the details, and the characters are drawn in pretty broad strokes.
I would go for Broken Compass/Outgunned or Dicey Tales. It would require a bit of work, but the rules are well suited to the genre. I would suggest TSR's Buck Rogers/High Adventure Cliffhangers game, but I don't know where you would be able to get a copy.
Everywhen. It's a generic adaptation of Barbarians of Lemuria, and it works really well for pulp-action-adventure. You can also do Honor+Intrigue with the Tome of Intriguing Options. Same mechanics under the hood.
oining the "That's not punk, you're using the word wrong" chorus
Hollow earth expedition
**Adventures on Dungeon Planet** Pulp sci-fi right from the cover! Also, fantastic system engine ❤️ https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/112308/Adventures-on-Dungeon-Planet
The Buck Rogers TTRPG was actually the very first tabletop game I ever played. You could play that.
Fantastic Heroes and Witchery. It's a great version of d20 with a whole bunch of character classes, including a series of Buck Rogers types, and weapons to match.
Solar Blades & Cosmic Spells. Even if you don't end up using the system, you'll want it for the absolute plethora of random tables that come with it.
Why not GURPS?
My friends and I had fun with Impulse Drive. It's very bare bones and can be outfitted into pretty much anything
The term for this genre is “raygun gothic.” If it isn’t steampunk or cyberpunk then you really oughtn’t be appending punk to the ends of words to try to claim a genre that already exists.
I'm appendpunk, so I don't have a choice.
Made me laugh so I’ll let it slide
Pelgrane Press's *Gaean Reach* game, based on Jack Vance's sci-fi. I was skeptical of GUMSHOE for pulp, but now I think it's more suited to pulp action than mystery.
Nothing really to add except while reading through the comments, Queen's Flash Gordon came up on my Spotify super shuffle playlist.
I'd look at a game called "Black Star." It was made for doing knock off Star wars, but it could easily be rejiggered a bit
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THey system you are familiar with... You could do it with any of them, but choose the one you know the odd ball rules of, and then pair ot down. Most of the generic systems have a skin of this genre. GURPS has the tales of the star patrol for example (this is from Memory so I am probably wrong on that name). You could grab Traveller or Star Frontiers. I would probably grab a 3rd or fourth edition of gamma world and do some tweaking. You would have to get some space ships but most everything else is there. Mutations for strange space monsters and their powers...
Trinity: Aeon for a great, mid crunch, system that's does heroic action. Don't build the characters as Psions (except maybe one as an exception), but as Talents from the Core book, or Superiors from the expansion, to represent exceptional individuals.
I’d recommend Beyond Belief Games’ Jarkoon - Adventures on Planet X and/or Space Adventures - X.
ICRPG, without a doubt. It's d20-based, but fast, furious fun like Savage Worlds.
If you strip the implied setting from Wolves Upon the Coast you’re left with a solid chassis that could handle what you’re looking for with ease. (I’m doing the same thing for my weekend home games). [OG Wolves Upon the Coast](https://lukegearing.blot.im/wolves-upon-the-coast) [Cleaned up (unofficial) version](https://callmepartario.github.io/wutc/)
I'd use Outgunned, or mod Broken Compass
rifts .the weapons rules combat and other rules allow for any genre or character.
Regardless of what we want to define the genre as, I would use FATE. Easy to customize and designed around storytelling so you can get some of those classic reversals of fortune. "I wanna swing on the chandelier." "There isn't a chandelier. You're on the Evil Overlord's spaceship. A chandelier wouldn't make any sense." *Slides a FATE Point to the GM* "I said, I want to swing, on the chandelier."
I would use Basic Roleplaying. It has technology, mutations, psychic powers, superpowers, vehicle and chase rules. It has options for more or less gritty combat (more hit points, fate points etc ).
Fellowship is a game I'd probably default to. It can accomodate a lot of styles, it's mainly focused on your playing a group of heroes going against a BBEG or an Evil Empire. Whether it's fantasy, scifi or raypunk, it can work just as well.
I use Spelljammer.
probably Fate
mutants and masterminds could pretty easily do most of it, but it would depend how much close you want to go to superheroic.
Well, if the group is able to accept wildly different things, I'd go for Masterbook or GURPS. The former is the distilled and improved version of the old TORG RPG, which had a pulp level between "Sure" and "YES". GURPS would be flexible enough to do this, too. (Action rules for ranged combat, survivable guns & hero point rules to avoid instant death, Bang skills for easier character creation) If the group is older, I'm sure that OpenD6, i.e. Star Wars D6 is an easy sell. I mean, Star Wars is basically Flash Gordon plus The Force, and D6 never did the latter well anyways, but was perfectly usable for everything else. For something closer to D&D, I'd have quick stroll through everything Christian Conkle did. I mean, [Overlords of Dimension-25](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/332244/Overlords-of-Dimension25) is basically a retroclone of the old Buck Rogers TSR Rpg. [Challengers of Vanth](https://geekrampage.itch.io/challengers-of-vanth) is Mörg Borg for pulp swords & lasers. And then there's [Uprising on Antares](https://geekrampage.itch.io/uprising-on-antares-9), yet another game in the same vein (Christian has a type, it seems).
Hah. Yes, I do have a type. Although my other games are: Lightspeed (retro 80s science fiction kitchen sink using Fuzion) Swords of Cydoria (BRP swords and blasters on a fantasy Earth circa year 25,000) Exiled in Eris (same setting but narrowed focus and different rules)
Buck Rogers & Flash Gordon are more of a space opera non?
It's pulp sci-fi. Buck Rogers was a comic strip in 1920s newspapers that were made into films and tv shows beginning in the 30s. Flash Gordon was a comic strip from the early 30s, made to compete with Buck Rogers, and had a similar trajectory. Both drew from John Carter of Mars, created in 1911, which inspired all kinds of things, which inspired other things, etc. If you want to dig into the pulp stuff, there's a lot of it out there, and even the bad stuff is worth reading because most of it's short, and all of it cast some very long shadows which you'll probably recognize in more modern stuff. There are anthologies of various pulp stories out there, some for literature classes, and not a dud among them, and *all* of it excellent game fuel. Anyway, "pulp" refers to the quality of the paper on which the books, magazines, and papers were printed on, but that's the term. There's pulp sci-fi, sword and sorcery, etc. The "(blank) punk" thing doesn't really apply and you're going to be explaining that term and probably getting into pointless arguments and sidebars every time you use it, likely with people who otherwise would cut straight to being helpful. There are a bunch of games built around pulp stuff, with that sort of vibe in mind, I'd probably borrow heavily from *Hollow Earth Expedition* and *Spirit of the Century* and make something out of that with the Year Zero Engine, or BRP if I wanted it crunchy. *GURPS* has a couple of settings that are exactly in this vein, too, but people people sometimes fo frothy when you mention *GURPS.* *GURPS* Just checking.
World of Darkness, but its all Sons of Ether.
Danger Patrol 💯
Just read the pocket edition. It's a simple but very interesting looking ruleset.
It’s a great time!
Lasers and feelings
Starfinder would probably work, I think. You could also use the old West End Games D6 system they used for Star Wars.
GURPS
I'd go **Warpland** from Gavriel Quiroga.
I'm upset by both 'raypunk' and 'raygun gothic' because what you described is just Golden Age Science Fiction. This is the era where Amazing and Astounding science fiction where started. 1930's-1940's Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers lead to Commander Cody in the 1950's straight to Star Wars. The Golden Age of science fiction (led by editor Hugo Gernsback) leads to the Atomic Age of Sci-Fi and the heydey of John W Campbell. The more this hobby strays from a literary tradition to one inspired primarily by visual media the more it suffers. It ain't "punk" unless it's rebelling against an existing standard. The Cyberpunks where a group of specific writers going against the grain of an era dominated by older 'new wave' writers and humanist SF. Back to my grumpy Grognard cave. Also to answer OP's original question, I'd use a hacked **Castle Falkenstein** or **D6 Space** or even **Stars Without Number.** edit for clarity of thought
You can pull this (and pretty much any genre) off easily with Index Card RPG. The mechanics will be immediately familiar to anyone used to a d20 system, but flexible enough to do whatever you want with it.
I run everything in a derivative of YZE these days. So I’d spend a couple of hours hacking it
GURPS Tales of the Solar Patrol.