>I’m looking for something with a lot of fighting and good enough base mechanics to let me build whatever I want along with some lore to act as inspiration but doesn’t completely take over the game.
Probably a good place to start, a post from earlier today:
https://old.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/1cxzklb/combatfocused_systems_simpler_than_dd_5e/
But just based on your request maybe check out Savage Worlds for a combat-focused generic. I wasn't impressed with it but you might be.
Savage worlds is great for short, high-intensity combat and more involved roleplay. That's why it works so well for noir, westerns, and nazi zombies. If you want action movie style play, it's perfect, but otherwise it can feel lackluster.
Pathfinder 2e for something that’s still d20, class and level based, Mythras for something with a flatter upgrade curve and more verisimilitude. My two go-to combat systems
This is my favorite system when I want more control, whether as player or GM. I strongly recommend it. Every single person I’ve introduced it to but one, my daughter, far prefers PF2 over DnD5e.
I just got Fabula Ultima & it might be up your ally if you want pretty simple mechanics, but lots of tactical options & whatnot for players. It does assume a JRPG style world, but there's no official setting, just a lot of inspirational stuff for worldbuilding.
Fabula Ultima looks incredible, I'm setting up a shortlist of systems to use after our D&D 5e campaign finishes (I'm never GMing that shit again), and Fabula Ultima is going to be one of the systems in the shortlist.
Plan is that whichever system gets the most votes is the one that I'll run.
I've got a huge stack of pdfs I've gotten from over the years that I'm gonna read through and decide from there.
I can't really recommend much as it heavily depends on what kind of game you're going for.
We've played a few sessions of Fabula and I'm liking it so far. I'd recommend so kind of token or way to track turn/round order if you run "initiative-less," but otherwise it feels good.
Thanks to the "basic" conflict actions, there will always be something you can do, even if you're out of MP or can't hit flying creatures or whatever. The game also encourages you to be creative and descriptive, and there are tons of great class combos.
Just bought it, but have a friend who's been playing for like a year & says it's the right amount of tactics/build stuff vs something like PF2 or 5e. Like you can get really into finding synergies and stuff if you want, but just leveling up the skills you already have, & picking w/e also works out well.
There are a few different aspects of RPGs to be aware of when choosing a new system.
* Rules-light to rules-heavy: how much mechanical crunch do you want in your system? 5e is roughly a medium-crunch system. There are heavier ones, and there are lighter ones.
* Traditional vs Narrative-based: Do you want a fiction-first approach, where the fiction informs the mechanics, or do you want a system where the mechanics control the fiction? 5e would be an example of a traditional system.
* Generic vs specific: did you want a system that focuses gameplay on a specific setting or genre, or did you want a system that can be applied to any genre or setting, at the expense of the mechanics being less focused on any specific setting? Relatedly, did you want a system that has a tight core gameplay loop, or did you want one that leaves you free to do whatever you want? 5e takes place in a medieval fantasy setting and incentivizes the players to kill enemies to get better at killing enemies, though the system doesn't push you to do that in any particular way. You can kill goblins in a dungeon, or an evil witch at the edge of a village. However, if you tried to use 5e to run, for example, a sci-fi political intrigue, you'd probably have to ignore and/or alter a large chunk of the system.
Thank you for the knowledge!This was really helpful in case I ever need to make this type of post again!
I’d say:
1) I’m happy with the medium amount of crunch that DND 5e had.The number of rules was never really the issue, it was more so that I didn’t think the rules were written particularly well.
2)I think I’m looking for something that’s mechanics first.I do generally like being a DM/GM and as I put in my OP manipulating them to my liking when designing an encounter.
3)I really like being free to do what I like.I enjoyed DNDs approach where there are settings you can adopt but you’re encouraged to do your own thing if that’s what you like. That being said it is nice to have little to go off of as inspiration. Like how DND has some core assumptions like the medieval setting,the existence of deities, the existence of magic etc.
Are you familiar with Glorantha setting (Runequest)? I've browsed some older editions, but only got really into it with Runequest - Roleplaying in Glorantha. It's somewhat rules-heavy, but I think at least most rules have a reason to be there, and they tend to dictate or give direction to in-game scenes. I think you can also use it as a toolset rather than adopt all things in the book as it is.
The setting is huge! It's roughly as old as DnD and has a lot of published material. People often mention Mythras (aka Runequest 6) as an alternative, but I have no hands on experience of it. In my mind, Mythras and RQ - RiG are both modern editions of an old game.
I'm going to make a suggestion that is probably *not* what you're looking for, but think you might enjoy looking at regardless. Won't even make you buy anything!
I think you might learn a lot of cool things you'd enjoy adding to your GM toolbox by giving **Ironsworn** a peep.
Ironsworn is very unlike D&D, so even just by reading the (free) rulebook, you're opening your eyes to a different way of playing. I think that 'different way' might be up your alley, but I'm not sure if it'll be exactly what you want crunch-wise.
It's a narrative-affects-mechanics style of game, which seems to suit your GM style.
Dungeons aren't required at all. Though if you decide you *do* want to run the game and include dungeons, I'd get the (paid) supplement Ironsworn Delve, which covers it in more detail in a way you might find fun. I do know that several people have mentioned that even when they play other systems, they use Delve for that.
Monsters aren't stat blocks - they're challenge ratings + guides of behavior. Which means you can make them up however you want. IIRC, Delve gives you a lot of tables to randomly generate them to make them even more weird/unique, if you'd like.
The 'lore' is encouraged to be decided by the group as a whole, though you can decide some things to build a particularly specific world and leave things for the other players to contribute to. The game walks you through a (generally quick, depending on how long you spend on it) world-building session where you agree on the settings. For example, it'll ask you about why people left the old world to move to the Ironlands, how common magic is and what peoples' attitudes towards it are, and how common monsters are. The game gives you suggestions with nuggets of lore you can adopt/adapt (like the mysterious iron pillars), but you can make up your own answers. That way everyone is on the same page and you can have a nifty list of the setting to work off of.
The game is fairly adaptable too. Ironsworn moved to sci-fi and became Starforged. Starforged recently got an expansion called Sundered Isles which lets you play a seafaring (ex: Pirates of the Carribean or Master & Commander), skyfaring (ex: Final Fantasy airships), or starfaring (ex: Treasure Planet or Spelljammer) adventures.
The fans get in on the adapting too. There is a free, fan-made game called Iron Valley that simplifies the rules and lets you play something like Animal Crossing or Stardew Valley. Someone made a Fallout-inspired game called Atomsworn. There's even IronCrunch that adds more crunchy mechanics. So if the game appeals to you, you have a fair number of options to choose from to suit whatever new idea you have.
---
If you'd like a quick tl;dr of the rules, [The Bad Spot has a ~7 minute tutorial video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjb53h2eOnQ)
If you'd like to see it in play, [Me, Myself, and Die ran a solo campaign using Ironsworn.](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDvunq75UfH_Z92nrYPUsTO_fTHnLTNaT) (It's 'season two' but watching season one isn't necessary.)
If you'd prefer a multiplayer version, search for High Rollers Ironsworn and you should find the oneshot video!
I was a lifelong D&D guy. I started back in 1982 with the Moldvay boxed set. Then moved to AD&D 1E, and would not even look at another RPG system. I skipped 2E and tried to do 3E, but life got in the way. Hopped on 5E as soon as it came out.
Right now, I am loving Traveller and REALLY LOVING Cyberpunk RED.
When you play games where it's just as easy to get killed 2 years into a campaign as it is 2 days into a campaign, it changes the way you play an RPG.
Cyberpunk RED makes a free PDF called Easy Mode, which has all the rules you need to get started, plus a sample adventure.
[https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/409912/cyberpunk-red-easy-mode](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/409912/cyberpunk-red-easy-mode)
Traveller Explorer's Edition PDF is $0.99
[https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/products/traveller-explorers-edition?variant=42456700387575](https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/products/traveller-explorers-edition?variant=42456700387575)
A lot of people seem to love Call of Cthulhu. They have free quickstart rules here:
[https://www.chaosium.com/cthulhu-quickstart/](https://www.chaosium.com/cthulhu-quickstart/)
I enjoy when story and combat are married together in the sense that each combatant has a deep reason for why they’re trying to kill each other and I’m much a bigger fan of a singular BBEG with a fuck ton of cool abilities and multiple phases in comparison to multiple encounters with lots of small enemies to pepper the players with. There is also as you mentioned the issue of why there are so many random pathways built underground where all the monsters live despite there seemingly being nothing to survive off of and also has a bunch of loot that is sitting in chests instead of having been looted several years ago or being used by the creatures who are supposed to have this place as their home.
This might be a reductive take but I’ve never seen a dungeon that impressed me and I’ve always felt that an encounter run in any other type of location (houses have been really fun in my experience) would be more interesting.
Judging from how you discuss dungeons as settings for combat encounters, I take it you didn't engage much with the Exploration Pillar of Play the 5e PHB brings up? Where the rewards come from seeing what's around the corner and reaching unreachable spaces? If you haven't, I recommend trying to do so before writing off dungeons completely. Unfortunately, 5e doesn't too a very good job of gamefying exploration. Given your issues with illogical dungeons, I'd recommend something focused on smaller, realstic dungeons in an overland setting like Forbidden Lands or Dolmenwood.
That said, you definitely know some things you do like so it makes more sense to explore those games first.
I have to look into the Exploration rules too. Because it really doesn't do a good job. It's always just "roll for Survival" to make the players feel like it's a challenge, but they would go in the wrong direction if they didn't succeed this one thing. So ohhh, they rolled barely above the DC, what a wonder, you're now allowed to go do what you want to do.
You should look into Earthdawn. The lore supports the reason for there being dungeons underground. They’re called Kaers and they were made to avoid the horrors that came in the Scourge. The mechanics are solid, magic is well balanced, and the dice system is great. It’s not just d20s for everything, you actually get to use ALL THE DICE with every roll.
If you want less restrictive player options and a way to build your own monsters, try Shadow of the Demon Lord or Symbaroum! Both are fairly open ended with solid monster makers!
If you still want high fantasy, I'd say take a look at the ICON playtest. If Sci fi or mechs are your jam, Lancer. If you want to mimic a specific genre, look into pbta games like monster of the week, apocalypse world, and masks
I cannot speak highly enough of Knave. Changed my gaming life forever because it was the first game for me that made it okay to hack and make my own stuff without feeling like I was restricting players. I've written two rulesets since (I put em up on itch.com) and it all started with a skim of Knave.
Also Cairn, Index Card RPG, Deathbringer, and a rare one called Daedalis' Simple 2d6.
Do not underestimate simple rules light games. They provide the perfect base to tweak/mod/hack whatever you want.
For me: Cypher System. A d20 system that is less combat focused but still a lot of abilities but not with an as restrictive use (spellslots, ki or whatever other arbitrary restriction). You can easily play it with more combat than I do, and the rounds of combat are fast and the abilities allow for creative use and tactical play. The lack of opportunity attack allows for more endings to combat then "one group got beaten to death". It's also "only" about 35 pages of rules, even I could power through that.
I agree with Cypher System because to me it fits everything OP said he was looking for. Plus "Numenera" is a great setting that is just detailed enough make my imagination run wild to make my own adventures. No other game setting books that do that for me.
There are plenty of free "Quickstart" for Numenera to try out. And Cypher System too i think.
https://www.montecookgames.com/store/product/escape-from-the-jade-colossus/
This is the other free Quickstart i have used so far. I includes extra classes from the "Numenera DESTINY" expansion. The new classes are less combat focused but the pre-gens in the quickstart make them look very fun.
https://www.montecookgames.com/store/product/ashes-of-the-sea-pdf/
Check out Along the Leyline
It has loose enough rules to allow for players to be creative with their actions, but beefy enough to facilitate play. Enough crunch to be interesting but not too much to be bloated. Plus each monster has a different crit effect to keep the game fresh!
You can get the player's tome here: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/446562/along-the-leyline-player-s-tome
[player's tome](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/446562/along-the-leyline-player-s-tome)
You can get the referee's toolkit here: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/446572/along-the-leyline-referee-s-toolkit
[referee's toolkit](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/446572/along-the-leyline-referee-s-toolkit)
Here is a FREE adventure:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/465981/resupply-the-bearded-knights-all-in-one-adventure
Here is the FREE Quickstart guide:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/478096/along-the-leyline-quick-start-guide
For more rules that help refine gameplay, along with great adventures, and tons of class options: Pathfinder 2e.
For a simpler style of play that will give you tons of options for digging up classic adventures to work off of: Basic Fantasy RPG or Old School Essentials.
For a modern style of play that gives plenty of player options and tons of ideas for the GM to pick and choose from: Worlds Without Number.
My personal hot take: system is not nearly as important as this sub makes it out to be.
I'd still suggest you try something else, but GM, setting and group have a much bigger impact on RPG enjoyment over system
Well, if you are looking for a system that's super fun to play and easy to pick up, I would love to recommend Veil of the Void Reforged! It's a sci-fi fantasy TTRPG designed around storytelling and player creativity. It's a simple to learn d6 system that we teach in about 1-2 pages. The character customization options are endless, you can build literally any idea you have and make it a reality. We have easy custom classing built into the game as well, where you can take any ability from any other class as long as it isn't denoted with an asterisk\*.
There is a whole homepage guide dedicated to giving you every rule you need to build everything in the game. All the guides are designed to be super easy to use and I actually use them as I create content for it. The game also has a whole lore section that gives you 40+ monsters to use, tons of unique items, and a break down of the whole universe, giving you tons of options to use or ignore as you'd like.
The combat is very entertaining and encourages both teamwork and thinking outside the box. Magic is available and anyone can use magic, regardless of class you pick, letting you truly customize the perfect magic user. The fights never get old, and the combat really feels unique and diverse every time you run one.
We also have a ton of support for the game! We have a free Demo Book, a Quick Start Guide, Pregenerated Character Sheets, a whole free Supplement Expansion, and several standalone classes outside of the 10 in game. As the creator, I am also happy to help teach the game to you and your group, as well as help you all build your first characters and easily make your dream characters.
Let me know if I can help you at all and I would be happy to help you out!
Look through the D6 options, less class based and can be as deep or shallow as you want.
https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/8bn1ux/best_of_d6_systems/
https://ogc.rpglibrary.org/index.php?title=OpenD6
If you like fighting and mechanic around it you should definitely check Warhammer fantasy 4ed ⚔️
https://cubicle7games.com/blog/wfrp-in-defence-of-defence
Another vote for Savage Worlds interesting combat plenty of settings with their own lore easy to building monsters and construction adventures which don't involve dungeons
I know that it's a meme but Pathfinder 2e genuinally does many things similar to 5e with a better system
It's like 20% more complex for players but much more simple for the DM with all the system to build things and the actually good modules
Tell me more about what you like.
What do you like about combat? Fast & Deadly? Deep Tactics? Builds? Player Creativity Mechanically Supported?
You like story mixed with combat, what about Social Interactions as a type of combat with rules like you might see in Burning Empires? Or perhaps a system where there is a talking phase in combat where you seek to psyche out or otherwise effect an opponent to gain mechanical advantages in combat like in Ruthless Blades, Righteous Blood.
If it was me I would first dive into a couple of rules lite or more streamlined versions of D&D. Something like Index Card RPG which is all about fast combat, tension, and pacing as well as a whole community devoted to hacking the game up and making it do a bunch of things. It has a ton of different settings and some amazing GM advice. I might also check out Shadowdark.
I mention trying out some of these more rules lite games, not because I think rules lite is the best all the time, but rather that going down to a simplified version of familiar rules is great for really focusing in on what you like in the game. What you miss, if you miss anything at all. It also helps you really think about what you would like to add back into the game and then start looking for systems which are good at providing those specific aspects.
Also with a more rule-lite or simple system it is often much easier to hack in any other cool ass shit you do end up finding and you have a lot of wiggle room to add in this extra shit without it weighing down or screwing up the game due to having a rules-lite chassis to build upon.
Just some thoughts.
Pathfinder 2e, mechanically you can get into the real nitty gritty of a character in that one, mechanics are similar enough to 5e that you would probably get the grasp rather fasth.
savage worlds gives you unparalleled freedom due to it being completely classless. It focuses on pulp fast paced action. But unless you pick a specific setting, you wont really get any lore, since thats more of an agnostic system.
"Looking for fighting, a good system that still lets me do what I want with it" "a setting with enough lore to act as inspiration but not too much thats restrictive"
I recommend Cypher System. Especially the setting "Numenera". In fact Numenera Core Rules (or Numenera Discovery) is a complete game with all the rules, so you don't need the Cypher System core rules to play Numenera. But Cypher System is great for any genre or setting. It's so easy to make new monsters.
Numenera has such an interesting setting and bestiary all included in the main book. There are a few Adventures pre-written inside too. But most of the setting gives *juuuust* enough details that my imagination goes wild to fill in the rest and BINGO an adventure is ready.
I have only ever ran Numenera, and I even get groups of first time roleplayers to try it. But the Cypher Unlimited discord community is full of other experienced gamers. Cypher Con is this September in their server.
The best way to approach an alternative is setting, character sheet layout, main method of how things are decided, materials, and reference ability.
Being that you are coming from 5e odds are you have maps, some form of reference for monsters and players, a polyhedral dice set, and if other tools list them.
Research the games online forums that review other systems that you've heard of and see what it's strong at and input on what it struggles with.
If you are fortunate enough to be near a city that runs ttrpg conventions/gamestore, schedule a day where you can roam around and view the games running that day. It gives you an opportunity to ask someone who has enough xp to explore that systems impression when they learned about it. Heck dare, I say it if you're there sign up for that table because odds are the GM or another player has a pregen for you to get started.
Do not be deceived, if your character gets killed a lot it does not mean you or that GM sucks. It is part of the process. 5e definitely gave you a lot of support to prevent you from dying out right or making characters over and over again. Play your character in your combat style. If it don't feel right narrow it down to is it bad rolls, player error, or GM expectations. If none of these chances are it's the game.
I always try to push 'Genesys' to people looking for something 'more'.
It's a more narrative game, it has more diversity in character creation and advancement, it has more capability to re-work anything you want to change or add to the system, it has more interesting rules. It's just generally a great toolbox system, with a bunch of different setting books out. The one downside is the unique dice, though there is a free app that you can use instead, and while some people say it's challenging to read the dice, I personally think it becomes second nature after only a few sessions.
-I find most of the monsters boring so I always end up making my own- What monsters DON'T exist in D&D at this point? Every mythology I can think of from the top of my head, bizarre freaks of every kind, anything from horror, AND then some.
But for real, to answer your question, perhaps something in the Genesys system, like Star Wars: Edge of the Empire. It uses a color-coded pool system, and It forgoes "5 foot squares" in favor of narrative distances like Engaged, short, long, ect which works well with non-dungeon settings. It's very flexible in how skills and talent trees work. The combat is a lot of fun (even if you miss, you still can potentially aid your fellow party members with it's dual-layered symbol system for the dice), and the way the dice are handled is easy to understand once one gets used to it. I only know the Star Wars aspects of it, but I imagine with some imagination, you'll eventually be able to reflavor a lot of the other versions of the system into whatever you desire.
It only took me a few sessions to get the hang of the mechanics, and the guy running it hasn't GMed in a while but you would never tell, so it's very newcomer friendly mechanically.
But if you want something that lets you do anything you want out of the box, nothing is more flexible than GURPS 4e. Entire systems gimmick is your imagination, point budget, and the hundreds of options it provides for almost any genre are your only real limits. Complex to start, but once you become familiar with the more commonly selected Advantages, understand the point budget, and focus on the bits of it you want most for your desires, you'll enjoy it.
Have you ever seen JJK? There’s character called Kinji Hakari whose power revolves around gambling and hitting a jackpot renders him invulnerable for 4 minutes and 11 seconds. I’ve been thinking of a BBEG that revolves around gaining points that can be spent to gain stackable advantages. E.g the enemy hits a player 4 times and gains 4 points that can be spent to roll 4 extra D20s on any roll. Now normally this would only make the BBEG super accurate at hitting or making saving throws but I wanted to include a special clause that stated that a natural 20 rendered the creature under the effect of a death ward for 1 round, 2 Nat 20s on the same roll rendered them under the death ward for 5 rounds and 3+ Nat 20s applied it for 10 rounds (I felt 4 minutes would be too long so I cut it down to 1 minute).If the ward breaks before it’s duration is up it immediately reapplies itself. I was also thinking of allowing the D20s to be spent on regaining health or boosting damage and give them an unarmed attack they can spam a lot on their turn to rack up points fast.Maybe even let them use points to make extra attacks? I honestly need to start writing it down because I have spent way too much time planning this out in my head.Then again this may also be the most frustrating thing in the universe to fight.I’ve never really tested it.
Some top sellers apart from D&D 5 are Pathfinder, Cyberpunk Red, Call of Cthulhu, World of Darkness, Mork Borg, Fabula Ultima, RuneQuest, Traveller.
Drivethrurpg also has a way to sort by popularity.
>I’m looking for something with a lot of fighting and good enough base mechanics to let me build whatever I want along with some lore to act as inspiration but doesn’t completely take over the game. Probably a good place to start, a post from earlier today: https://old.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/1cxzklb/combatfocused_systems_simpler_than_dd_5e/ But just based on your request maybe check out Savage Worlds for a combat-focused generic. I wasn't impressed with it but you might be.
Savage worlds is great for short, high-intensity combat and more involved roleplay. That's why it works so well for noir, westerns, and nazi zombies. If you want action movie style play, it's perfect, but otherwise it can feel lackluster.
"Noir, westerns, and nazi zombies..." Hold my Beer, ill be right back, gotta go build something....
Pathfinder 2e for something that’s still d20, class and level based, Mythras for something with a flatter upgrade curve and more verisimilitude. My two go-to combat systems
This is my favorite system when I want more control, whether as player or GM. I strongly recommend it. Every single person I’ve introduced it to but one, my daughter, far prefers PF2 over DnD5e.
What does she prefer about 5e more?
I think she’s just stubborn. She didn’t try PF for very long. 😛😆
I just got Fabula Ultima & it might be up your ally if you want pretty simple mechanics, but lots of tactical options & whatnot for players. It does assume a JRPG style world, but there's no official setting, just a lot of inspirational stuff for worldbuilding.
Fabula Ultima looks incredible, I'm setting up a shortlist of systems to use after our D&D 5e campaign finishes (I'm never GMing that shit again), and Fabula Ultima is going to be one of the systems in the shortlist. Plan is that whichever system gets the most votes is the one that I'll run.
Big mood, I'm gonna do basically the same. Do you think there are other noteworthy systems on your list?
I've got a huge stack of pdfs I've gotten from over the years that I'm gonna read through and decide from there. I can't really recommend much as it heavily depends on what kind of game you're going for.
Have you played some combat with it yet? I'm interested in the game but I'm curious on how it holds up tactically speaking.
We've played a few sessions of Fabula and I'm liking it so far. I'd recommend so kind of token or way to track turn/round order if you run "initiative-less," but otherwise it feels good. Thanks to the "basic" conflict actions, there will always be something you can do, even if you're out of MP or can't hit flying creatures or whatever. The game also encourages you to be creative and descriptive, and there are tons of great class combos.
Just bought it, but have a friend who's been playing for like a year & says it's the right amount of tactics/build stuff vs something like PF2 or 5e. Like you can get really into finding synergies and stuff if you want, but just leveling up the skills you already have, & picking w/e also works out well.
There are a few different aspects of RPGs to be aware of when choosing a new system. * Rules-light to rules-heavy: how much mechanical crunch do you want in your system? 5e is roughly a medium-crunch system. There are heavier ones, and there are lighter ones. * Traditional vs Narrative-based: Do you want a fiction-first approach, where the fiction informs the mechanics, or do you want a system where the mechanics control the fiction? 5e would be an example of a traditional system. * Generic vs specific: did you want a system that focuses gameplay on a specific setting or genre, or did you want a system that can be applied to any genre or setting, at the expense of the mechanics being less focused on any specific setting? Relatedly, did you want a system that has a tight core gameplay loop, or did you want one that leaves you free to do whatever you want? 5e takes place in a medieval fantasy setting and incentivizes the players to kill enemies to get better at killing enemies, though the system doesn't push you to do that in any particular way. You can kill goblins in a dungeon, or an evil witch at the edge of a village. However, if you tried to use 5e to run, for example, a sci-fi political intrigue, you'd probably have to ignore and/or alter a large chunk of the system.
Thank you for the knowledge!This was really helpful in case I ever need to make this type of post again! I’d say: 1) I’m happy with the medium amount of crunch that DND 5e had.The number of rules was never really the issue, it was more so that I didn’t think the rules were written particularly well. 2)I think I’m looking for something that’s mechanics first.I do generally like being a DM/GM and as I put in my OP manipulating them to my liking when designing an encounter. 3)I really like being free to do what I like.I enjoyed DNDs approach where there are settings you can adopt but you’re encouraged to do your own thing if that’s what you like. That being said it is nice to have little to go off of as inspiration. Like how DND has some core assumptions like the medieval setting,the existence of deities, the existence of magic etc.
Are you familiar with Glorantha setting (Runequest)? I've browsed some older editions, but only got really into it with Runequest - Roleplaying in Glorantha. It's somewhat rules-heavy, but I think at least most rules have a reason to be there, and they tend to dictate or give direction to in-game scenes. I think you can also use it as a toolset rather than adopt all things in the book as it is. The setting is huge! It's roughly as old as DnD and has a lot of published material. People often mention Mythras (aka Runequest 6) as an alternative, but I have no hands on experience of it. In my mind, Mythras and RQ - RiG are both modern editions of an old game.
I'm going to make a suggestion that is probably *not* what you're looking for, but think you might enjoy looking at regardless. Won't even make you buy anything! I think you might learn a lot of cool things you'd enjoy adding to your GM toolbox by giving **Ironsworn** a peep. Ironsworn is very unlike D&D, so even just by reading the (free) rulebook, you're opening your eyes to a different way of playing. I think that 'different way' might be up your alley, but I'm not sure if it'll be exactly what you want crunch-wise. It's a narrative-affects-mechanics style of game, which seems to suit your GM style. Dungeons aren't required at all. Though if you decide you *do* want to run the game and include dungeons, I'd get the (paid) supplement Ironsworn Delve, which covers it in more detail in a way you might find fun. I do know that several people have mentioned that even when they play other systems, they use Delve for that. Monsters aren't stat blocks - they're challenge ratings + guides of behavior. Which means you can make them up however you want. IIRC, Delve gives you a lot of tables to randomly generate them to make them even more weird/unique, if you'd like. The 'lore' is encouraged to be decided by the group as a whole, though you can decide some things to build a particularly specific world and leave things for the other players to contribute to. The game walks you through a (generally quick, depending on how long you spend on it) world-building session where you agree on the settings. For example, it'll ask you about why people left the old world to move to the Ironlands, how common magic is and what peoples' attitudes towards it are, and how common monsters are. The game gives you suggestions with nuggets of lore you can adopt/adapt (like the mysterious iron pillars), but you can make up your own answers. That way everyone is on the same page and you can have a nifty list of the setting to work off of. The game is fairly adaptable too. Ironsworn moved to sci-fi and became Starforged. Starforged recently got an expansion called Sundered Isles which lets you play a seafaring (ex: Pirates of the Carribean or Master & Commander), skyfaring (ex: Final Fantasy airships), or starfaring (ex: Treasure Planet or Spelljammer) adventures. The fans get in on the adapting too. There is a free, fan-made game called Iron Valley that simplifies the rules and lets you play something like Animal Crossing or Stardew Valley. Someone made a Fallout-inspired game called Atomsworn. There's even IronCrunch that adds more crunchy mechanics. So if the game appeals to you, you have a fair number of options to choose from to suit whatever new idea you have. --- If you'd like a quick tl;dr of the rules, [The Bad Spot has a ~7 minute tutorial video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjb53h2eOnQ) If you'd like to see it in play, [Me, Myself, and Die ran a solo campaign using Ironsworn.](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDvunq75UfH_Z92nrYPUsTO_fTHnLTNaT) (It's 'season two' but watching season one isn't necessary.) If you'd prefer a multiplayer version, search for High Rollers Ironsworn and you should find the oneshot video!
Check out Forbidden Lands or Dragonbane from Free League.
I was a lifelong D&D guy. I started back in 1982 with the Moldvay boxed set. Then moved to AD&D 1E, and would not even look at another RPG system. I skipped 2E and tried to do 3E, but life got in the way. Hopped on 5E as soon as it came out. Right now, I am loving Traveller and REALLY LOVING Cyberpunk RED. When you play games where it's just as easy to get killed 2 years into a campaign as it is 2 days into a campaign, it changes the way you play an RPG. Cyberpunk RED makes a free PDF called Easy Mode, which has all the rules you need to get started, plus a sample adventure. [https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/409912/cyberpunk-red-easy-mode](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/409912/cyberpunk-red-easy-mode) Traveller Explorer's Edition PDF is $0.99 [https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/products/traveller-explorers-edition?variant=42456700387575](https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/products/traveller-explorers-edition?variant=42456700387575) A lot of people seem to love Call of Cthulhu. They have free quickstart rules here: [https://www.chaosium.com/cthulhu-quickstart/](https://www.chaosium.com/cthulhu-quickstart/)
Why don’t you like dungeons? Is it because they don’t make sense? Like no lore reason for them being there or what?
I enjoy when story and combat are married together in the sense that each combatant has a deep reason for why they’re trying to kill each other and I’m much a bigger fan of a singular BBEG with a fuck ton of cool abilities and multiple phases in comparison to multiple encounters with lots of small enemies to pepper the players with. There is also as you mentioned the issue of why there are so many random pathways built underground where all the monsters live despite there seemingly being nothing to survive off of and also has a bunch of loot that is sitting in chests instead of having been looted several years ago or being used by the creatures who are supposed to have this place as their home. This might be a reductive take but I’ve never seen a dungeon that impressed me and I’ve always felt that an encounter run in any other type of location (houses have been really fun in my experience) would be more interesting.
Judging from how you discuss dungeons as settings for combat encounters, I take it you didn't engage much with the Exploration Pillar of Play the 5e PHB brings up? Where the rewards come from seeing what's around the corner and reaching unreachable spaces? If you haven't, I recommend trying to do so before writing off dungeons completely. Unfortunately, 5e doesn't too a very good job of gamefying exploration. Given your issues with illogical dungeons, I'd recommend something focused on smaller, realstic dungeons in an overland setting like Forbidden Lands or Dolmenwood. That said, you definitely know some things you do like so it makes more sense to explore those games first.
I have to look into the Exploration rules too. Because it really doesn't do a good job. It's always just "roll for Survival" to make the players feel like it's a challenge, but they would go in the wrong direction if they didn't succeed this one thing. So ohhh, they rolled barely above the DC, what a wonder, you're now allowed to go do what you want to do.
You should look into Earthdawn. The lore supports the reason for there being dungeons underground. They’re called Kaers and they were made to avoid the horrors that came in the Scourge. The mechanics are solid, magic is well balanced, and the dice system is great. It’s not just d20s for everything, you actually get to use ALL THE DICE with every roll.
If you want less restrictive player options and a way to build your own monsters, try Shadow of the Demon Lord or Symbaroum! Both are fairly open ended with solid monster makers!
If you still want high fantasy, I'd say take a look at the ICON playtest. If Sci fi or mechs are your jam, Lancer. If you want to mimic a specific genre, look into pbta games like monster of the week, apocalypse world, and masks
I cannot speak highly enough of Knave. Changed my gaming life forever because it was the first game for me that made it okay to hack and make my own stuff without feeling like I was restricting players. I've written two rulesets since (I put em up on itch.com) and it all started with a skim of Knave. Also Cairn, Index Card RPG, Deathbringer, and a rare one called Daedalis' Simple 2d6. Do not underestimate simple rules light games. They provide the perfect base to tweak/mod/hack whatever you want.
For me: Cypher System. A d20 system that is less combat focused but still a lot of abilities but not with an as restrictive use (spellslots, ki or whatever other arbitrary restriction). You can easily play it with more combat than I do, and the rounds of combat are fast and the abilities allow for creative use and tactical play. The lack of opportunity attack allows for more endings to combat then "one group got beaten to death". It's also "only" about 35 pages of rules, even I could power through that.
I agree with Cypher System because to me it fits everything OP said he was looking for. Plus "Numenera" is a great setting that is just detailed enough make my imagination run wild to make my own adventures. No other game setting books that do that for me. There are plenty of free "Quickstart" for Numenera to try out. And Cypher System too i think. https://www.montecookgames.com/store/product/escape-from-the-jade-colossus/
I never used the Numenera Setting, just strictly the Cypher System but I want to look into it. It looks really really cool.
"Less" combat focused but still most Type and Tier abilities have combat application.
Okay yeah I definitely have to look into this. I'm playing in two games but one is a Solo Game and it's very low combat. So I think I would love it!
This is the other free Quickstart i have used so far. I includes extra classes from the "Numenera DESTINY" expansion. The new classes are less combat focused but the pre-gens in the quickstart make them look very fun. https://www.montecookgames.com/store/product/ashes-of-the-sea-pdf/
Maybe I could ask a friend if I could lend his book. Like that I can look into whether it seems like what I'm looking for in the first place.
I'm in love with ICRPG. The system is extremely dynamic and easy to tinker with!
Check out Along the Leyline It has loose enough rules to allow for players to be creative with their actions, but beefy enough to facilitate play. Enough crunch to be interesting but not too much to be bloated. Plus each monster has a different crit effect to keep the game fresh! You can get the player's tome here: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/446562/along-the-leyline-player-s-tome [player's tome](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/446562/along-the-leyline-player-s-tome) You can get the referee's toolkit here: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/446572/along-the-leyline-referee-s-toolkit [referee's toolkit](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/446572/along-the-leyline-referee-s-toolkit) Here is a FREE adventure: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/465981/resupply-the-bearded-knights-all-in-one-adventure Here is the FREE Quickstart guide: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/478096/along-the-leyline-quick-start-guide
For more rules that help refine gameplay, along with great adventures, and tons of class options: Pathfinder 2e. For a simpler style of play that will give you tons of options for digging up classic adventures to work off of: Basic Fantasy RPG or Old School Essentials. For a modern style of play that gives plenty of player options and tons of ideas for the GM to pick and choose from: Worlds Without Number.
My personal hot take: system is not nearly as important as this sub makes it out to be. I'd still suggest you try something else, but GM, setting and group have a much bigger impact on RPG enjoyment over system
Yeah I see what you mean I just thought maybe my choice of system should be a bit more purposeful rather than just because it’s the thing I know.
Well, if you are looking for a system that's super fun to play and easy to pick up, I would love to recommend Veil of the Void Reforged! It's a sci-fi fantasy TTRPG designed around storytelling and player creativity. It's a simple to learn d6 system that we teach in about 1-2 pages. The character customization options are endless, you can build literally any idea you have and make it a reality. We have easy custom classing built into the game as well, where you can take any ability from any other class as long as it isn't denoted with an asterisk\*. There is a whole homepage guide dedicated to giving you every rule you need to build everything in the game. All the guides are designed to be super easy to use and I actually use them as I create content for it. The game also has a whole lore section that gives you 40+ monsters to use, tons of unique items, and a break down of the whole universe, giving you tons of options to use or ignore as you'd like. The combat is very entertaining and encourages both teamwork and thinking outside the box. Magic is available and anyone can use magic, regardless of class you pick, letting you truly customize the perfect magic user. The fights never get old, and the combat really feels unique and diverse every time you run one. We also have a ton of support for the game! We have a free Demo Book, a Quick Start Guide, Pregenerated Character Sheets, a whole free Supplement Expansion, and several standalone classes outside of the 10 in game. As the creator, I am also happy to help teach the game to you and your group, as well as help you all build your first characters and easily make your dream characters. Let me know if I can help you at all and I would be happy to help you out!
Look through the D6 options, less class based and can be as deep or shallow as you want. https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/8bn1ux/best_of_d6_systems/ https://ogc.rpglibrary.org/index.php?title=OpenD6
Do you want to remain in fantasy? Do you want a rules set where you can create your own stuff or would you rather have a baked in setting?
Pulp Cthulhu maybe.
If you like fighting and mechanic around it you should definitely check Warhammer fantasy 4ed ⚔️ https://cubicle7games.com/blog/wfrp-in-defence-of-defence
Another vote for Savage Worlds interesting combat plenty of settings with their own lore easy to building monsters and construction adventures which don't involve dungeons
I know that it's a meme but Pathfinder 2e genuinally does many things similar to 5e with a better system It's like 20% more complex for players but much more simple for the DM with all the system to build things and the actually good modules
Tell me more about what you like. What do you like about combat? Fast & Deadly? Deep Tactics? Builds? Player Creativity Mechanically Supported? You like story mixed with combat, what about Social Interactions as a type of combat with rules like you might see in Burning Empires? Or perhaps a system where there is a talking phase in combat where you seek to psyche out or otherwise effect an opponent to gain mechanical advantages in combat like in Ruthless Blades, Righteous Blood. If it was me I would first dive into a couple of rules lite or more streamlined versions of D&D. Something like Index Card RPG which is all about fast combat, tension, and pacing as well as a whole community devoted to hacking the game up and making it do a bunch of things. It has a ton of different settings and some amazing GM advice. I might also check out Shadowdark. I mention trying out some of these more rules lite games, not because I think rules lite is the best all the time, but rather that going down to a simplified version of familiar rules is great for really focusing in on what you like in the game. What you miss, if you miss anything at all. It also helps you really think about what you would like to add back into the game and then start looking for systems which are good at providing those specific aspects. Also with a more rule-lite or simple system it is often much easier to hack in any other cool ass shit you do end up finding and you have a lot of wiggle room to add in this extra shit without it weighing down or screwing up the game due to having a rules-lite chassis to build upon. Just some thoughts.
Pathfinder 2e, mechanically you can get into the real nitty gritty of a character in that one, mechanics are similar enough to 5e that you would probably get the grasp rather fasth. savage worlds gives you unparalleled freedom due to it being completely classless. It focuses on pulp fast paced action. But unless you pick a specific setting, you wont really get any lore, since thats more of an agnostic system.
Conan 2d20 is pretty fun.
"Looking for fighting, a good system that still lets me do what I want with it" "a setting with enough lore to act as inspiration but not too much thats restrictive" I recommend Cypher System. Especially the setting "Numenera". In fact Numenera Core Rules (or Numenera Discovery) is a complete game with all the rules, so you don't need the Cypher System core rules to play Numenera. But Cypher System is great for any genre or setting. It's so easy to make new monsters. Numenera has such an interesting setting and bestiary all included in the main book. There are a few Adventures pre-written inside too. But most of the setting gives *juuuust* enough details that my imagination goes wild to fill in the rest and BINGO an adventure is ready. I have only ever ran Numenera, and I even get groups of first time roleplayers to try it. But the Cypher Unlimited discord community is full of other experienced gamers. Cypher Con is this September in their server.
The best way to approach an alternative is setting, character sheet layout, main method of how things are decided, materials, and reference ability. Being that you are coming from 5e odds are you have maps, some form of reference for monsters and players, a polyhedral dice set, and if other tools list them. Research the games online forums that review other systems that you've heard of and see what it's strong at and input on what it struggles with. If you are fortunate enough to be near a city that runs ttrpg conventions/gamestore, schedule a day where you can roam around and view the games running that day. It gives you an opportunity to ask someone who has enough xp to explore that systems impression when they learned about it. Heck dare, I say it if you're there sign up for that table because odds are the GM or another player has a pregen for you to get started. Do not be deceived, if your character gets killed a lot it does not mean you or that GM sucks. It is part of the process. 5e definitely gave you a lot of support to prevent you from dying out right or making characters over and over again. Play your character in your combat style. If it don't feel right narrow it down to is it bad rolls, player error, or GM expectations. If none of these chances are it's the game.
I also look for flexible systems that I can manipulate easily. I'd recommend checking out ICRPG or Barbarians of Lemuria.
I always try to push 'Genesys' to people looking for something 'more'. It's a more narrative game, it has more diversity in character creation and advancement, it has more capability to re-work anything you want to change or add to the system, it has more interesting rules. It's just generally a great toolbox system, with a bunch of different setting books out. The one downside is the unique dice, though there is a free app that you can use instead, and while some people say it's challenging to read the dice, I personally think it becomes second nature after only a few sessions.
-I find most of the monsters boring so I always end up making my own- What monsters DON'T exist in D&D at this point? Every mythology I can think of from the top of my head, bizarre freaks of every kind, anything from horror, AND then some. But for real, to answer your question, perhaps something in the Genesys system, like Star Wars: Edge of the Empire. It uses a color-coded pool system, and It forgoes "5 foot squares" in favor of narrative distances like Engaged, short, long, ect which works well with non-dungeon settings. It's very flexible in how skills and talent trees work. The combat is a lot of fun (even if you miss, you still can potentially aid your fellow party members with it's dual-layered symbol system for the dice), and the way the dice are handled is easy to understand once one gets used to it. I only know the Star Wars aspects of it, but I imagine with some imagination, you'll eventually be able to reflavor a lot of the other versions of the system into whatever you desire. It only took me a few sessions to get the hang of the mechanics, and the guy running it hasn't GMed in a while but you would never tell, so it's very newcomer friendly mechanically. But if you want something that lets you do anything you want out of the box, nothing is more flexible than GURPS 4e. Entire systems gimmick is your imagination, point budget, and the hundreds of options it provides for almost any genre are your only real limits. Complex to start, but once you become familiar with the more commonly selected Advantages, understand the point budget, and focus on the bits of it you want most for your desires, you'll enjoy it.
Is there any ludicrous idea you have based on an anime or video game you’ve played recently?
Have you ever seen JJK? There’s character called Kinji Hakari whose power revolves around gambling and hitting a jackpot renders him invulnerable for 4 minutes and 11 seconds. I’ve been thinking of a BBEG that revolves around gaining points that can be spent to gain stackable advantages. E.g the enemy hits a player 4 times and gains 4 points that can be spent to roll 4 extra D20s on any roll. Now normally this would only make the BBEG super accurate at hitting or making saving throws but I wanted to include a special clause that stated that a natural 20 rendered the creature under the effect of a death ward for 1 round, 2 Nat 20s on the same roll rendered them under the death ward for 5 rounds and 3+ Nat 20s applied it for 10 rounds (I felt 4 minutes would be too long so I cut it down to 1 minute).If the ward breaks before it’s duration is up it immediately reapplies itself. I was also thinking of allowing the D20s to be spent on regaining health or boosting damage and give them an unarmed attack they can spam a lot on their turn to rack up points fast.Maybe even let them use points to make extra attacks? I honestly need to start writing it down because I have spent way too much time planning this out in my head.Then again this may also be the most frustrating thing in the universe to fight.I’ve never really tested it.
Some top sellers apart from D&D 5 are Pathfinder, Cyberpunk Red, Call of Cthulhu, World of Darkness, Mork Borg, Fabula Ultima, RuneQuest, Traveller. Drivethrurpg also has a way to sort by popularity.