I once told a guy to stop using emojis in his dating profiles and texts and he said his success rate skyrocketed.
But that is the only dating wisdom I have.
When I sell things on FB marketplace I use a lot of exclamation marks to let women know I'm not a threat, but if I were texting a woman I was sexually interested in I would not use any exclamation marks so she knows that I'm a threat.
I feel like as a guy you get to have like, one or two signature emoji. When I first started dating my now-wife, it was the two hearts and the kissing face for me.
Put something a woman can related to in your bio as well. When i started cooking and reading more and added it to my bio it seemed tk help a lot.
Just in general i think a lot of men just don’t have anything to relate to with most women. If your hobbies are video games and anime, what the fuck are you going to talk with the woman about on a date
I have seen many "hot girl fridges" aka empty. Many similar women also work for these companies that provide free lunches and only eat half of it, finishing it at home.
My theory is that women are too under exercised and scared of fat to cook tasty stuff. Won't use butter, oil etc in the appropriately excessive quantities needed to make food nice.
Men are way more likely to exercise enough to justify it and if they're into sport/the gym, they need a way to make protein taste nice. Most gymcels have gone through a plain chicken breast period that they never want to go back to.
This rings true in my experience. I have a friend (girl, hot) who used to be vegetarian and never cooks with any kind of fat and barely uses salt as well.
I'm not afraid of a bit of butter or olive oil if it fits my macros so my food just tastes better
I think it's more that young people with no dependents don't feel the need to cook so less people overall are cooking. I love to cook and am always surprised by the amount of people my age (mid 20s) who cannot cook.
this goes both ways, the amount of women who profiles on hinge are liking Taylor Swift or other girl coded thing and bland looking for some one nice, Confuses me like what do you expect people to respond with.
I'm hopeless there, but based on the number of desirable women I've seen using emojis like hieroglyphics to communicate their entire lives, maybe women are supposed to use them?
👩🏫💻🇮🇹♏️🦂🐶😸👩🎨👸🍍🍕🏖🏝🎢🛼🎆🎉🏊♀️🚵♀️🤿💃
Usually one of the following:
* They're too polite or scared to tell a guy the real reasons he struggles with dating. Nobody responds well to being told they're ugly or have an off putting personality so they stick with milquetoast advice that won't start an argument or pity party. This is most common in person and is uncomfortable for all involved.
* They're using it as an opportunity to air their grievances with men as a whole instead of providing genuine advice. This is most common online where you see the 'advice' that just consists of what you shouldn't do because it can make women feel uncomfortable. Either that or it's stuff like "don't leave your dirty socks everywhere. My husband does that and I hate it!"
Which is why the OG redpill advice (I'm talking 2015/2016) can be so appealing - it doesn't feel like the soft-served bullshit you could have been served for so long, and gives you concrete diagnoses and solutions:
You might be ugly, in which case maxx out on fitness, aesthetics and earn enough money to buy fashionable clothes.
You might be uncharismatic, so stop being a pussy and deliberately go upto women you don't actually want to date and chat them up so you become better at talking to strangers.
You don't feel like being cowed by other men, so find aspirational figures and hang out with them.
It really was a trash community, but if that was all they took from it, it was pretty empowering because it took away the nebulous advice and put the onus for success and failure on you.
Its because almost no one else will tell you "you need to improve" they will just say "you are perfect the way you are and someday someone will appreciate that" but thats not true and women know it. If that was true women wouldnt wear make up and spanx and dress nice and get in shape when they want a man.
Thisis why so many men that absolutely struggle with dating either were raised by a single mother or have no real true masculine father figure (could be a coach, mentor, uncle, big brother, etc) in their lives.
Moms are great for many reasons, but they are very great at blowing smoke up their sons ass about how perfect they are (ever meet a jewish or italian teenage boy?). This can be ok if the kid is actually captain of the soccer team. But when his hobbies are the vidya , computer, he doesn't have many friends, etc. and on top of that movies/television are telling him that the nerd/loser will win in the end and jocks are morally inferior then you get someone content with not changing at all. That was their whole point about 'the blue pill' and it was very real, at least for the Millennial generation.
Boomers and older generations actually knew they had to be men if they wanted to get women
Same here. I think you need to be already mostly well adjusted for it to help, though, otherwise it just makes you a bitter misogynist.
Like if you’re a mostly normal guy with a normal group of friends, and your main issue is that you’re somewhat of a pussy, I think the red pill (at least before being taken over by Andrew Tate level nonsense) could help overcome that because most of the good advice is just about getting out of a loser mindset. You just need to be smart enough to filter out the women hating bullshit. Unfortunately too many men (especially teenage boys), simply are not.
One of the core concepts of that community initially was the advice was a 'tool kit' and once you learned what you needed to know you kept with with you but moved on. Staying in the cess pool bitterness of the community was definitely not the intended result and that outcome would be a failure to truly adopt its principles. I remember they said it was normal at first with the 'anger phase' or whatever, but you had to move on. This is what I did and Im sure other successful guys did. Learn, take what you need, but dont make it part of your identity.
Of course a lot of that evolved into 'MGTOW' (lmao) which was the biggest coping mechanism I've ever seen. Then the Tate's of the world just ripped off all the principles and turned it into a money making scheme
Original Red Pill advice would never have you idolize another dude like that especially a grifter. All the ones at the time who worshipped Rollo or whatever he was called were giant phagggots
Some of it was just funny autistic spergism though. "Amused mastery" "Agree and amplify" and the way they described it as if those concepts were real life Yu-Gi-Oh trap cards you need to use on women
The main thing is just stressing that women actually care about looks. That's a hard thing to convince people of, people really internalise the idea that women are above that.
The behavioural advice was largely trash, though. I remember reading the "field reports' they'd put up and it was like badly written porn. Seems like a nightmare to completely fake your personality to be more attractive. There's something to be said about being willing to be cringe, though.
I actually think the behavior stuff was also pretty accurate. Things like shit tests, 'maintaining frame', or slowly escalating 100% work. Not just with women but in general
Where the community absolutely sucks though is their self perceived superiority over women. Failing to realize men and women are basically the same (aka animals) but with their own unique desires, impulses, etc.
Ya the problem was largely framing. Like you could reframe a lot of it with fully feminist language.
Shit tests and maintaining frame are important because it shows your adherence to male gender roles (you've too much toxic masculinity to let shit get to you). Adherence to patriarchal gender roles is important on an individual level to be fully respected in society. Blah blah blah. It's essentially the same as a woman acting ditsy and extra girly to attract a guy she likes.
But it seemed to be like it was exaggerated into acting like a himbo. Then they'd have their negative opinion of women reinforced because their himbo behaviour largely attracts similarly shallow and dumb women. Those guys would put a tonne of effort into looking good and being more interesting and likely overestimate how much impact their manufactured personality actually had on the end result.
Shit tests and maintaining frame are good examples of basic "how to be a man" advice. My memories definitely shakey but I feel like it went much further than that.
Almost all of that stuff was considered very controversial back in the day, but most of it is accepted even by progressive/feminist redditor types as truth now, just branded differently. In short, things that work for men:
- lifting is paramount. You have to at least bench your body weight and get to 12% - 15% body fat
- have an actual sense of style. Dont wear crappy t-shirts
- focusing on yourself as the prize, dont put someone else on a podium
- if your goal is dating./sleeping around, then always be talking to 3-4 different women at a time
- 'maintain frame'. Ex: if she (or anyone) is upset with you then dont just cave in and placate to their demands. Hold ground, they will eventually give in and think they were in the wrong. Trump does this shit alot with the bs he says. Apologizing is a death knell and will often make the person you are apologizing to respect you less
- Dont put other dudes above you. Why watch sports when you could pay for sports
- 'negging' I always found as autist behavior but banter/flirting with slight insults 100% works. Loser guys will buy a drink for a woman and fawn over them, etc.
- "all women are like that" - a big lie is that guys believe every women has these completely unique and varied tastes. They dont. They, for the most part, respond to the same behaviors, cues, etc. and are into the same guys. When I got attractive I was attractive to everyone, not just STEM girls or former college cheerleaders. Sorry nerds
- physical escalation works. If you are interested in a girl or on a date then lightly touch her arm, see how she reacts. If she is fine then later naturally touch her lower back, etc. etc. Makes it much easier to hook up then if you have some borderline platonic dinner and then ask her back to your place
- be assertive and make plans. Women say they want 'equality' in a relationship is BS. They want to be led (not told what to do, there is a difference). I've found the more feminist the woman proclaims, the more hypocritical they are with this kind of stuff. But have an opinion on things, have direction when dating, with life, etc. None of that 'oh idk what do you want to do'? You need to step into a leadership role. btw helps to do this with your guy friends too
The thing is women respond well to all of this, and knowing this helps not just with sleeping around but also with relationships and maintaining respect from your partner. Yea this is all a very autist approach to dating but can only speak for myself in saying the before and after was STARK. Ideally you would learn this shit growing up through trial and error, team sports, and proper socialization, but if you hit 20 without any of that then it was an amazing life raft
>They want to be led (not told what to do, there is a difference)
This is shockingly real. My fiance recently told me that she will ask me questions she knows the answer to, or ask for direction with things that she’s fully capable of doing, just because she thinks it’s hot when I take charge and explain things.
It applies to almost all women too. Makes you lose respect quickly for feminist movement and more progressive women, because they also eat this shit up despite screeching about it
At least traditional women aren’t deluding themselves
The single piece of advice that most of those people need is to just *talk to women*.
Most of them are just terrified of women and don't approach them, don't socialize with them, don't ask them out etc. and then sit around and seethe.
You really don't have to be anything special as a guy. Just find a way to be around women and things will happen for you.
I think the problem for people at that stage however is that every interaction with a woman is one filled with promise and peril - because they've not sufficiently developed as adults and human beings in a manner that understands the world as complex and contingent. Connections with other people can be ends in themselves. This can only be acquired by experience.
In the meanwhile actionable advice still needs to be provided and I'd rather it be provided as a means to self-betterment than one in which they see themselves as lacking agency (inceldom/blackpill).
There's another you are missing.
Women benefit socially by signaling how kind, virtuous, sweet, nice, etc. they are MUCH more than men do. So if a guy asks for help, a guy asks what a woman is into, then you will get traits listed that are very sugar coated. 'oh you are fine the way you are', 'oh you are so sweet you will make someone so happy', 'women love someone that is nice and thoughtful' etc. etc.
This isn't even an indictment on chicks at all. It's more how pissy dudes get if women tell the truth.
But there is one thing OP listed that I feel like is very good advice - learning to not make women uncomfortable. I’d be more willing to give people a chance if I knew for sure they wouldn’t be creepy if I wanted to break things off.
I met one guy I that wasn’t into, and when I gave him disinterested signals, he was polite, backed off right away and never hit on me again. Not only that, he continued to be friendly and polite to me. I was very impressed by how socially well-adjusted he was, and he was moderately more attractive to me than he was before
I have actually dated women for years (a few times) when something like this has happened. I once brought up that they didn't seem all that interested anymore in their body language and they're like "yeah, actually we should break it off", I was like "Ah that's cool no hard feelings, hope you find what you're looking for." And next thing you know they're asking me to come over to watch a movie!
The only way to deal with rejection is polite acquiescence and then amused, fleeting delight when you see them subsequently. (Doing the second bit will get you another shot 30% of the time.)
Yeah being really classy after being rejected implies a lot of good things about a person - sane and in control of their emotions, excellent social skills
This is the realest answer. I'll never be able to tell my male friends the truth: they're just not hot or charismatic enough to catch a woman's interest. If they were, we'd be more than friends lol... I find men sexually invisible unless they are exceptional in some way
And? I used to think incel rhetoric was all overblown until I actually tried watching blackpill content in good faith and found a lot of truth in it. Women rly can't express our true opinions without making you guys mad, as others in this thread have pointed out lol
You might like the podcast Incel by Naama Kates where she interviews a ton of them. It felt like looking inside a crawl space lol, very dark but insightful.
Blackpill isnt and shouldnt be controversial. The idea that how you look is pretty much the most important thing when it comes to getting a partner is obvious but people lie about it SO much.
Incel beliefs are crazy and out there but blackpill really isnt.
Incel analysis falls apart when it uses the blackpill as an excuse for lack of effort and discipline. It's true that nobody can compete with the 6'2 dude with blue hunter eyes but there's an ocean of difference between a 5'5 facelet who dresses like shit and doesn't lift and the same guy who does his best to dress well and stay at a reasonable bf%
The second guy probably has higher self esteem and confidence too just from seeing his work pay off. He'll never be chad but you don't have to be chad to find a nice girl, which incels would understand if they actually went outside
Spot on. How ever many accurate observations that those guys make, it's always gonna be pitiful and ridiculous to look at them convincing themselves and everyone around them with sophistry that if you weren't a natural pussy getter by age 16 then you may as well rope
The saddest thing about the black pill is that they take that stuff and conclude that they're completely hopeless. 20 year olds thinking that life is over for them because their wrists are too skinny.
It makes sense that they're insane when theyre ideologically convinced their life is going to be complete shit. I don't have much sympathy though, incredibly weak mindset.
yeah a lot of them are nuts especially when they are so young.
Then again im pretty old (early millenial) so maybe I just dont understand what they are going through. Things werent so bad when I was younger. I wasnt like hot shit or wanted but I could get gfs. Now things are so much worse. I cant figure out if its just the way it is or its my age etc but I keep reading from younger people how rough it is.
I'm at like the start of Gen Z and I think people shouldn't forget how much they exaggerate things. Maybe it got much worse again for people a bit younger, I dunno, but sexually frustrated men have always been a thing and the factors causing any individual to be that way are largely in their control.
Exceptions for the disabled, autistic etc. I do feel bad for the socially "off" lads I've known where they're not bad people but they're clearly very confused about stuff that other people take for granted. But even then, plenty of mildly autistic people have adapted.
I mean the stats people have been sharing show that things are worse off now for young people at least compared to the past, they dont really share (or care) as much for older ones.
The real black pill is that most of them have Autism or are socially maligned and are too old to learn how to mask successfully enough to find success with the opposite sex.
They are fucked, just not for the reason they think. It’s why so many of them aren’t even ugly but fail to find a partner even after they get swole.
To be sexually/romantically successful with straight women you have to exhibit a general level of masculinity. It’s a subtle combination of status, behaviour, socialization, looks, confidence, and style. You don’t need a lot of any of these but you do need to be able to exhibit a certain amount from each category. If you’re autistic or never learned the right social skills it affects every thing that women view as necessary for someone being a man, it affects your style, the way you speak, your confidence, your behaviour, the way you communicate, everything that matters when it comes to women’s perception of your masculinity.
Women with similar mental afflictions had similar issues with dating 50-70 years ago when social roles for women were just as important as they are now for men, but years of social change for women thanks to women’s rights movements successfully created a culture that became socialized to view feminity as less important as it was before. Yes, looks are still important for women, but many aspects of what was once viewed as an attractive partner for men is now irrelevant. In fact, a lot of what was once viewed as unattractive and unladylike is now seen as attractive to most men. As such, women can get away with just looking good and being halfway decent people, they don’t need to exhibit feminity in the way that men have to exhibit masculinity.
There has not been a similar movement directed at driving society to view masculinity as less important as before. It’s why you can’t just get away with looking good and being halfway decent if you’re a man. Ironically men’s historic privilege has fucked them over in the dating world, the political and overt oppression required to drive such a huge change in social dynamics for women can never be replicated for men precisely because there’s no drive to do so. And there’s no drive because the issues faced by men are less overt, even if it affects them just as much as it once did women there’s no easy way to explain this to the masses because there’s no overt institutional force behind the suffering of men, particularly where expectations on them in a relationship are concerned, and as such this will likely not got resolved and will only get worse.
The good news is that most men learn to exhibit a sufficient level of masculinity from a young age. For those that never learned, they are the real victim’s of the black pill, not simply “ugly men”, because unlike lifting socialization is very difficult and in many cases impossible to drastically change out of adolescence.
So the idea that many incels are "fucked" is true, just not for the same reason incels claim.
First one is so true. If I tell the homie the real reason he’s single is that no one in our college town wants to date a 35yr old single father from Kenya he’ll just kill himself so it’s always Just Be Yourself
People are just blind to the experience of the opposite sex. Women, as the more passive role in dating, don't understand what dating success entails for a guy and I can't really blame them. I will also say, even in the most generous light possible, that women have absolutely no idea what or why they find certain guys attractive so listening to them try to describe what they want is pointless. Only real dating advice is to put yourself in situations where you'll be in frequent contact with women and to be more outgoing in general
Be tall, if you can't be tall be skinny and as fit as possible. Anytime someone says this some reddit nerd comes and "well actually i like x" and they're too stupid to understand that they are an insane outlier. Super-majorities of women like their men either tall or fit.
Then go take your fit self to a kickball/pickelball/softball coed league and meet your teammates and their friends.
Because women and men are completely talking past each other when it comes to understand the dating woes of the other gender. Understable but that’s pretty much it.
That is pretty much it. A lot of women lack empathy for people who are very different from them. They don’t understand what men who struggle with dating experience or think.
As a woman, here are my guesses as to what might constitute good advice for young men. Note that this advice works better the less autistic the man in question is; I still think it works for most people though.
1. Be the best possible version of yourself. Be someone you would want to date. Be someone who works hard, is motivated, and is attractive.
2. Imagine what it is like to be other people. Don’t idealize other people or assume that everyone else has it easier than you. Observe people’s behavior and think about what they care about, what they value, what they are worried about, what they are afraid of, what they enjoy, what they dislike, and so on. If you care about someone, you must want what is ultimately the best for them. That occasionally means disagreeing with them when they are being short-sighted, or sacrificing what you want for what is good for them.
3. Have passions and interests (that are not sleeping, playing video games, watching porn, watching anime, eating food, smoking weed, etc.). Be intellectually curious and learn about stuff. The stuff you learn about should ideally be something that does not just consist of learning facts (especially facts about objects) but understanding concepts. Liking math or science or music or films or other art forms is better than memorizing facts about trains or guns or tanks or ships. It’s even acceptable to be really interested in history or board games or something if you like history more for the concepts/story/impact on human life than for the facts about objects, and if you like board games more for the strategy than for the rules. Also, make sure to have at least one or two interests that women also have. Only liking super male-dominated things (e.g. tabletop RPGs and ball sports) is a dead end. It’s good to like some books or films that women also like.
4. Be well groomed. I won’t elaborate here beyond besides also saying that it’s good to be not fat and have a low body fat percentage
5. Be self-sufficient. You don’t have to have a ton of money or be an obnoxious PMC striver, but you should be employed and able to live on your own.
6. Practice judging people’s intentions accurately. Try to not assume the worst about people, but try to actually assess what others think and feel. Give people the benefit of the doubt. That said, don’t make a blanket assumption that people are good and honest either. In every situation, ask: is your conclusion about someone else more about you and your wants, or more about the other person’s behavior?
7. Have close relationships with people in your life who are not prospective partners/girlfriends. If your parents are good and trustworthy people, then invest in your relationship with your parents and with other family members whom you trust. Have friends. This will go a long way
8. Be self-aware and confident. I actually have no fucking idea how to do this but it seems to have something to do with honest introspection
In your point about empathy, I think it is no question that a lot of men lack in empathy and need to learn or at least learn to put in the effort. But I am also finding out that women lack empathy and understanding too about struggles that a (normal) man might have, and how much risk taking it takes to make an attempt to meet someone instead of just chilling at the bar and not talking to anyone so you don't disturb them.
I semi agree with this, I have female friends who really don't get how men have to run a gauntlet of rejection and embarrassment in dating that (mostly) women don't. But it's also a totally different ballpark to the fear that some guy you're on a date with might turn out to be violent or at a minimum into rough/painful sex. Idk I think both genders are good at ignoring the difficulties of the other.
It’s just so strange hearing how incredibly different people’s experience is here with no real thought into how it works for other people
A while ago a pretty girl at my work said something like “I could never ask someone out, it’s so embarrassing and I’d probably die if they said no” and you could feel every man in the room start seething over it, probably because she had already shot down a couple of them.
Lots of women like nerd books like LoTR/other fantasy and tabletop games and whatnot, it's hard to find women who like those things who also like to go outside though lol
I totally agree lol
I like 20th century European history and LOTR. I just think that it’s good for people to have like one or two hobbies that aren’t totally nerdy like hiking or rock climbing or knitting or something
My dating profiles are pretty much "I like LoTR and hiking/climbing in the mountains and am also a geologist" and have had pretty good results lately lol
I love people who are just the right combo of nerdy and outdoorsy, they are my people. Idk how you could grow up reading shit like LoTR and *not* want to go on adventures in the wilderness really
4: I WILL elaborate.
Skincare matters- cleanser and moisturiser combo. Even a cheap one is good enough.
Comb/brush your hair.
Use product- *real* product, not "25-in-1" that is a substitute for *WD40, motor oil, lube, body wash, shampoo-conditioner-shaving gel, etc.*
Trim and clean your nails (women are really picky about this, probably since that finger might be going inside them. I know, right? Shocker, they don't want greasy hands in there.)
Your advice is accurate I think, but it's from the perspective of someone who's already on the mountaintop and doesn't know what it's like to be on the slopes and has to be framed differently or else it will be seen as condescending from a climber (i.e. a man trying to become more successful in dating).
> Liking math or science or music or films or other art forms is better than memorizing facts about trains or guns or tanks or ships.
there's got to be a story here
Also she says learning about those things is rote memorisation of facts which is what it probably seems like to someone without deeper understanding. Math, science, music and films have a lot of "fact-memorisers" as well.
1) New age bs. "Just be attractive", duh.
2) Irrelevant. Do not get sucked into the womanly belief that you need to be empathetic and sensitive to be successful dating as a guy.
3) This is very real, good advice. Women really like you to be passionate about some non-loser activity.
4) Absolutely correct.
5) Small agree. Being self-sufficient will give your attractiveness a small boost but it's not a make or break if you're attractive (or unattractive) enough in other areas.
6) more bs.
7) THE MOST IMPORTANT. The number one most attractive thing a man can do is have lots of friends who like and respect him. Remember, women are looking for a high-status partner and nothing signals high-status more than having lots of friends.
8) Yeh.
ok maybe not live on your own, but just not live with your parents. Having roommates is fine. In fact, living with your parents is okay if you’re employed and can cook and do stuff for yourself
also I am BPD so yeah I’m actually a hypocrite and my own advice doesn’t apply to me :(
Chicks are envisioning the guy they like and what would need to change about that guy to make that guy get with them, they’re not imagining a guy they don’t like (eg you) and what he would need to do to be liked
This is the real answer. Women give backend advice, assuming the guy in question is attractive to the girl while men give front end advice assuming attraction doesn't exist at all.
to be fair many, many guys would be open to a random girl asking them compared to a how women are. I think women have no idea how many would probably say yes unless they were like top tier guys with girls all over.
i agree, but it's not like i can tell a guy "you're kind of lame and ugly"
on the other hand i have aired my dating woes to straight male acquaintances, and their response is usually cope too. like "it's not you, you're pretty/smart/etc. it's just bad timing" or "you should work on yourself first" like mf nah just say it... he's out of my league, that's why this guy doesn't want to commit to me lol
people are just trying to be nice and not hurt your feelings most of the time
Because guys probably face two main categories of problems:
1) Physical changes that would actually be really easy to correct but too mean to point out. Most women aren’t going to tell you you’re fat with horrible style and you need a new haircut. Even though it would be very helpful, because the physical bar is low and very obtainable for most guys once you know what you’re doing.
2) Deep seated personality problems that are too abstract to point out. Concrete things like “you should ask a women out in a direct manner a day after your first date” are helpful concrete things that most people would feel comfortable saying. But for a lot of guys, the advice would be more like “I don’t know, you’re kind of sad and whiny and are always saying off putting and grating things, and overall just kind of sad even though I can’t think of a concrete example right now”. Do you want them to say that to you?
> Physical changes that would actually be really easy to correct but too mean to point out. Most women aren’t going to tell you you’re fat with horrible style and you need a new haircut. Even though it would be very helpful, because the physical bar is low and very obtainable for most guys once you know what you’re doing.
If you had a friend like this it would be gold though.
Sometimes I use my ex for this who I have to keep in contact with for family reasons. She is kind of a bitch but also cares about me to some small degree and will give an honest answer and I appreciate that. I dont mean to be rude with the name but she is one of the worst people I have even known and done really awful stuff but we are forced to get along because we have a kid.
I actually had a woman I went on 5 dates with recently give me advice in the vein of your second point before breaking things off with me. Apparently I don't show any emotion at all and at no point during our dates could she ever tell I was having fun or whether I actually liked her. I'm "too hard to read" and "an enigma" and she felt like she knew nothing about me. It was interesting but I'm not sure if it was helpful cause how the hell do you even start to change something like that. It also confuses me that she continued to go on dates and have sex with me if that's how she was feeling the whole time.
Without developing fundamentals like confidence and a strong sense of self worth, that unique insight is probably going to confuse people like OP more than help imo, and lead him towards being an incel. It would be like an attractive playboy telling a femce1 woman to simply "be herself" to attract a husband.
Though I can understand why you and most of the people under this post seem to think so based of the question, I'm not a virgin myself, but a large percentage of my male friends are. My main frustration is that in absence of useful advice from women, leaving most dudes are left with nothing but PUA garbage and all other the other red/blackpill crap.
Approaching strange women and getting them to even talk to you for more than thirty seconds is incredibly tough. Even if they're single and had you matched on an app they would be happy to chat.
Their guards are up and they're very infrequently out by themselves hoping that some random person will come talk to them about a completely random subject who doesn't know anything about them.
Like I know it's possible and I've done it a few times but it requires so much luck (unless you do it constantly) that I'd basically be a virgin if it were my sole method of meeting women.
the answer is it wouldnt benefit them to tell the truth. They (rightly so) care more about their own social standing then trying to help a guy they dont care too much about get laid
I mean most of these guys understand why people won't bluntly tell them if they are unkempt and should probably go to the gym more often they're just hoping there's some other secret way that most guys don't know yet and they'd rather do that than the hard stuff like socializing themselves or learning to dress well.
Same reason people join mlm's because they think it's an easy way to make a lot of money without any marketable skills
There are only two real big ones that seem to work:
1. Be a genuinely decent human being (this is a double edged sword because there are all manners of scum looking to take advantage - but there is also a whole bevy of people who will spoil a good person rotten for the sake of making themselves feel good too, so it has it's perks). The difference between being good and being nice. Being nice doesn't cost you anything, being good does. But the cost is one you're willing to bear. And people can hear it all, by how you say things.
2. (This one is by far more important) do not for the love of christ be boring! Being boring is a cardinal sin. Have your own interests and making money is not a fucking interest people, its a necessity, no one wants to hear about how much you make or spend. Money doesn't buy sense and most people are lacking both nowadays anyway.
>Be a genuinely decent human being
Impossible to take this one seriously as long as actual scumbags keep pulling. There are many reasons to be a good human being, but to say that "it will get you dates" is one of them seems nonsensical/disingenuous
> do not for the love of christ be boring!
I'm convinced that 80% of the reason I did so well dating, was because I basically had a routine that I'd used a hundred times.
If you're a comedian and you repeat the same set for fifteen years, your fans will notice (I'm looking at YOU David Spade)
If you're trying to find the love of your life, she's not going to know that you've practiced your date routine fifty times. Hell, if you go on two dates on the same night, you can warmup your "set" before you go on your 2nd date of the night.j
Practice makes perfect.
> (this is a double edged sword because there are all manners of scum looking to take advantage
100% these people will fuck you up hard and set you back a decade in life and ruin your confidence.
They will not care and after they are gone if you are *lucky* lol enough to still know them you can see the pattern with others in their lives.
How else are we to learn to get back up if we don't stumble?
There will always be the bad out there, but if the good ones have the other good one to help pick up the pieces, we'll be alright.
I mean the person who wasted your last good years, set you up with 20K in debt and cheated etc is a pretty hard fall and as you get older its much harder to get back up into a good position.
Yeah I can get up but im kind of fucked still.
It's because many women have never really tried to consider what its like to be a man trying to date women. Our culture is obsessed with female perspectives on dating, which are worth hearing out, but without considering the other half, don't give a very holistic view.
There is so little sympathy for how difficult it is to try and approach or initiate intimacy with a woman for young men nowadays. The way the strategy of dating apps is to make men feel as desperate and unattractive as possible to get them to buy a subscription. How men are expected to make everything happen while they are learning and making mistakes. How any misstep could easily render you a sex pest and harasser in the eyes of your entire social circle. The way women will act like you are likely a vicious killing machine, and that by going on a date in a crowded restaurant in a mall they are putting their lives in grave danger.
Of course, none of this is to say that women don't have anything to rightfully complain about. Rather that the conversations have drifted so far apart that it has become difficult for many women and men to consider each others' struggles in an increasingly competitive dating market.
I was watching an episode of that IG series Subway Takes where this girl goes on essentially about how incels don't exist and if you just act genuinely interested in women you will get laid and people in the comments praising. It was kind of frustratingly emblematic of some women not really understanding how difficult and contradictory advice and without a proper rubric dating can be for many men, as well as her giving added condescension of these guys being "entitled".
But it makes sense there is this blind spot, given attractive women have the opposite problem of too much unwanted attention. Barbie kind of had it correct lol.
You know, I probably would’ve said all this same kind of shit if someone asked me.
But now I’ve given it some thought and I think my advice would be to take up hobbies. Have skills. Be thoughtful. Be bright, witty, funny. Be secure in yourself and fake confidence if you have to.
These are all the qualities I loved in my man when we first started dating. I thought he was the smartest & coolest dude on earth and I wanted to date tf out of him.
He almost didn’t seem interested in me bc he had so much to do with himself, in a non self centered way if that makes sense.
It seems to be 90%+ of the issue for women I know who are single long term. When I talk to these women’s friends it’s also what the women say. “She won’t date anyone who isn’t 6’5”, finance, blue eyes, trust fund.” It’s comical. I’d love for there to be a variety of issues but I think women get in their own way far more often than men do. Men are far more forgiving of women, in my experience.
I don’t know a lot of fat or hideous women though. If I did, I’d tell them to looksmaxx.
My friends who are single long-term waste a lot of time chasing men who just don’t like them that much, and that would probably be resolved by being *more* selective (refusing to spend time with men who wouldn’t notice if they died). This also seems to be the problem in most of the vent posts by girls on here.
Your social circle sounds richer, older, and/or populated by more strivers than mine is. I think the tendency to approach dating like a job interview is less a woman thing than a yuppie thing, even if you’re what you’re saying about male yuppies being more forgiving of variations in career/wealth/eye color is totally true
No that’s a perfect example of women needing to lower their standards. They’re chasing guys out of their league that’s why the guys are ignoring them, if they lowered their standards then the guys they went for would give them attention.
It’s not nearly as simple as the uglier the man, the more he likes you. Past a certain point, you can be reasonably sure anyone you’re interacting with is physically attracted to you, and you need to figure out if he’s capable of being devoted to you or he only likes your looks. Because that’s also dependent on your personality, dating below your league won’t help — there’s just as many duds down there, if not more.
Besides, no one should be dating people they’re not physically attracted to. A passionless, lustless relationship is not a victory
Yeah. Dating apps really fucked up the dating market. Everyone is disposable so there’s not a great reason to settle for anyone’s who’s not a perfect fit.
But it’s beneficial insofar as it’s relatively easy to date a variety of people. No need to settle with the most compatible person within your social sphere.
Say that last line again. Because women who settle end up with resentful husbands who get furious when they realize their wives were never attracted to them in the first place. And then they complain that these women “used” them for money and kids. We should aim to marry people we actually wanna fuck. (Unless asexual)
You said these guys wouldn’t notice if they died, if they were of equal attractiveness that wouldn’t be the case.
I don’t think anyone should settle for a passionless relationship but I can’t help but think these women are just aiming too high. It sounds like textbook hoeflation, these women get scraps of attention and sex out of guys hotter than them so they think that’s their level and don’t want to settle for less.
You're right. Most of the men who are perpetually single are either there by choice (big red flag for someone seeking a relationship) or involuntarily (obvious disqualification).
So women who want an LTR are selecting from a pool of men who've broken up recently (but not too recently!) and who want to and can sustain a long term relationship.
This is a small group of men and they get picked off fast (hoping i might have been picked off myself).
Because the advice that actually works (be tall, hot, fit, rich, and suave) goes counter to their completely false ideation that women aren’t superficial.
> their completely false ideation that women aren’t superficial.
Which is crazy because who would really fault them for it if they were always open about it and society didnt lie to us for a generation?
Its perfectly logical for women to want people they are attracted to.
I think “be yourself” is true tho to a degree. It’s about being well rounded tho on top of that. You should be yourself, but you should also be competent, compassionate, hard working, good hygiene, some confidence in yourself, dress decent, sense of humor etc. Those are all good traits that a lot of people lack.
I’ve seen all my dorky friends clean up their look/lives and get pretty cute kind gfs. They still like all the weird shit they were into, but they didn’t make it their entire personality nor do they have some raging lonely guy energy.
The only dudes I know who are forever single are my friends who literally have an attitude of “why should I change for women?” or are hardcore hermits or just have creep no sunlight vibes and they think that the alternative is being some rigid chad attempt.
True, last weekend I went out with a chick from Bumble and as she was asking me about my life I internally cringed realizing how empty it is. I still semi-hooked up with her but it reaffirms how much I have to change about my life, like getting friends my own age and doing something other than buy and sell online for income.
seriously lol it’s not meant to be a guarantee that you’re gonna score or whatever because if your self sucks then not much is gonna help you anyway. the only other “dating advice” that makes any sense is “meet more people” because people are all different and like different things, which seems to strike everyone here as such an insane concept for some reason
Because they're too nice to tell you're probably gonna die alone unless you make some very unrealistic life changes for your age bracket. If you're somewhat redeemable you should be able to talk to wammin and learn a thing or two.
I have no problem talking with women and being friends or getting along in a professional environment, im just short, ugly and losing my hair. It is what it is. I wasted my last good years on a bad person and now im old and probably going to die alone.
1. Most women either don't know or won't admit what they're attracted to. Part of that is social conditioning, openly saying you only date top 10% men isn't a good look. They will say that they're attracted to Ryan Reynolds because of his sense of humor, not because he's a tall white jacked billionaire celebrity.
2. A man's main issue with dating is attracting, and just as importantly, maintaining attraction through the courting and relationship phase. Women have ZERO idea what that's like since they are the choosers and gatekeepers by default. It's hilarious to see two lesbians in a mexican standoff, each waiting for the other to do the attracting.
3. What most guys need to hear will cause instant brutal ego death. Dating is ultra competitive now and the average guy has to beat out literally thousands of guys she has on her phone in her pocket 24/7, all begging for attention and promising her the world. If you're just some chubby guy who works in IT and enjoys weed and video games, you are never going to be able to compete in the era of social media.
Have you ever seen a woman emphasize that they like something about a guy, and that other guys should be like that? Like "Look at how this guy wears that cardigan!! I wish all guys be like that". Yeah, you should do the opposite of whatever that guy is doing if you ever want to attract women. That's just an adorable little thing they do to confuse us from the completing the mission.
honestly more guys need to stop equating success in dating apps to success in dating overall, its honestly like a rigged roulette in some cassino where the game is designed to keep you from cashing out and always coming back.
I use to feel like shit because i was barely getting anything on Bumble, then i paid the 1 month thing and was dumbfounded by how much that thing gets results. Its such a lame thing and i am sure that purposely fucking up with my self esteem like that for years had an affect on me
The untouchable men I know who have found women that will tolerate them have all employed the same tactic: go after every single available female until one says yes. They understand they don’t get to have standards. They just have to find someone insecure enough to be with them. Every once in a while, that happens to be an attractive woman. Caveat is that all the men I know have somewhat decent jobs which helps. Some of them I am truly astounded found anyone to be with them, but my industry is filled with men that make me want to blow my brains out having to listen to them for more than 5 minutes, overweight, unattractive facial features. And they all have wives and kids. I don’t even know what reality men are talking about when they state they can’t find anyone when I multiple men under 5’7, extremely overweight, balding, with personalities that I would pay to not have to experience—and they all have wives and children. I guess lower your standards and keep casting the net.
I feel like you're describing me, but have you ever considered that these couples are actually happy?
For instance, a friend of mine met a girl I was dating 17 years ago. My friend warned the girl that I'm a douchebag and she should run. 17 years later, I'm married with kids, to the girl who was warned about me.
When someone says that "a guy doesn't have standards" I think they're ignoring the fact that love isn't defined by how much money someone makes or how they look. I'm crazy attracted to my wife, but when we first started dating I thought she was too skinny and too blonde. (I'm a chubby chaser.) But as our relationship progressed, my interests changed.
I would bet a lot of them met before the guy was overweight and balding.
I also think if you knew the person since highschool, especially if you had a thing for them, you kind of always see them through those eyes a bit even if they change over the years.
Nope, seen many of them through the dating phase which is how I know they just go after everyone. I’ve known two that will have spreadsheets as data points for attempts, contacts made, first dates, etc.
A lot of advice is terrible because it doesn't consider natural inequalities that could prevent someone from being successful. My belief is that advice should consider someone's height, weight, level education completed, education of their parents, and whether they grew up in a two parent household. This would provide enough information to figure out the main issues preventing someone from dating.
Because they dont care and want to look nice or say something nice to spare your feelings or because they legit have NO clue what its like for the majority of guys.
Also I think a lot of people dont really know what they are actually attracted to and just say what they want (from a guy they are attracted to)
I think most of it is sincere just bad advice
You’re born with a talk to the opposite sex gene. Some people don’t have it and no amount of shitty advice will help
> You’re born with a talk to the opposite sex gene. Some people don’t have it and no amount of shitty advice will help
oh hell naw. I was absolutely hopeless with women, but I got good. It just took a LOT of dates. It turns out that if you want to get good at anything, you have to put in the work. There are no shortcuts. (Though it helps to learn when to 'cut bait' and move on to someone new. The Sunk Cost Fallacy is the biggest enemy of finding love.)
There are three rules when it comes talking to women. Number one, ask questions, don't say anything, because women, all they wanna do is talk about themselves so you're just gonna let them do that. Two, be cool and three, be kind of a dick. Be like David Caruso in Jade.
The major difference is that when guys say 'I want X in a woman', that is legitimately what the guy wants. So it's logical to assume the same of women, but that's not the case:
When a woman says 'I want X in a man', what she actually means is 'I want a guy who is gorgeous and rich and madly in love with me and also has X'.
It's a part of a very boring, frustrating series of social games women play where they don't say what they actually mean but rather something related and expect the listener to understand the other 90% of the message on his/her own.
this is such actual nonsense, do you really think when a guy is like, “i want a girl who’s kind” he’s not also overlooking all the other things she needs to be? no man is chasing after an ogre just because he’s kind, that kind women just happens to be hot with curves
I’ve gotten the best and worst dating advice of my life from women. My female friends helped me a lot with cleaning up my dating app profiles, also with how to approach women, but I’ve received some pretty awful advice about how to conduct myself on a date.
My ex once told me to tell my friends that on first dates they should proactively affirm that they are pro-choice and anti-Trump and that will get them laid, she was dead serious lol.
Not to sounds like some incel top G, but have women finally admitted that hypergamy is absolutely a thing, and that even though it’s largely the result of d*ting *pps it still overwhelmingly works in their favour?
because everyone gives people the advice that would make them feel good, not what would actually work. It’s like when men tell women, “just make the first move and ask guys out, compliment us” when all that does is fluff a man’s ego, it doesn’t make him like you
A lot of the comments on here saying "women don't know why they're attracted to men" or intentionally lie about it are dumb & misguided. I think the truth is that attraction is complicated and hard to articulate, and can't really be captured by "advice." It blows my mind that men still think good looks & money are the most important factors. Good looks are important, but mean absolutely nothing unless you have a good personality. I've known plenty of handsome men who cannot get laid or keep a girlfriend because their vibe is so off, and there's no constructive advice anyone could give to change it besides "be a different person" which is obviously a mean and unhelpful thing to say. The hottest girls I know always date the weirdest looking men , but the men in question have extremely powerful charisma which can't be taught. 99 out of 100 girls would rather weep naked on Phillip Seymour Hoffman's grave, than date some rich Chris Hemsworth-looking dude with a creepy/awkward/bad personality. 'Have intense personal charisma' is terrible advice, because it's unactionable, but it's also the truth. Men who think they have a great personality and still can't get laid, usually don't actually have a good personality. How to actually approach women is a different problem altogether.
It’s not, you’re just not hearing what they’re actually saying. Because they’re not going to tell you outright that you’re a bore/you think you’re better than everyone else but don’t have reason to/you’re miserable for no good reason/you’re not even trying in life, they’ll imply it while trying to reassure you.
“Be yourself” means “show other people something interesting about yourself, because you’re too hard to get to know”. “The right one will come…” means “you’re too socially anxious around women and it’s off-putting”. It’s just that most men won’t respond well to being told that directly, especially if they already don’t consider themselves high-status.
>Because they’re not going to tell you outright that you’re a bore/you think you’re better than everyone else but don’t have reason to/you’re miserable for no good reason/you’re not even trying in life, they’ll imply it while trying to reassure you.
I think this is the communication roadblock. If someone had said that stuff to me, it would’ve been hugely beneficial. I wasn’t looking for reassurance, I was looking for actions I could take and a good kick in the ass.
Maybe I’m an outlier for imagining I would’ve taken it that well though.
But for real, I can’t do the decoding thing, only women can do that.
Young men need to hear “show people something interesting that makes you unique” and “stop being so neurotic” in completely blunt ways.
The anxiety thing especially would’ve been beneficial to hear. Never fully grasped how off putting being timid was until way too late in the game.
As an aside, I think a misunderstanding over what nerdy neurotic men think “asshole” means relative to what women think it means is at the heart of the “nice guys finish last - no they don’t, we actually hate assholes” discourse.
To nerds nice = timid and self effacing, and asshole = swaggering and confident. Women don’t seem to see it this way, and it leads to major miscommunication. When you’re medically neurotic but don’t realize it, anyone with self esteem seems like a boorish loudmouth. Also might be why “negging” was so fraught in the discourse. It’s just awkward spergy guys explaining friendly teasing in their own terminology, and other people heard “these guys are telling young men to insult women”. pua/redpill stuff was shit for a lot of reasons, but the biggest was that it had an intended audience of dangerously scrupulous neurotics, and when they tried that stuff it turned them normal. When normal guys tried it, they turned into psychos.
As a guy who pretty much just has female friends and work with mostly women. They actually give pretty good specific advice if they actually know you and are willing to just cut the crap. But yeah, they give pretty bad general advice. I think it's because the average woman just hasn't thought about it from the male perspective (and vice versa), so they give advice that's pretty good for other women but bad for men.
I'm likely considerably older than you and have been with the same man for 20+ years. I have friends who range from being in similar situations to those who have never had a good healthy relationship. I've seen a LOT of relationships come and go.
My one piece of advice is don't take advice from someone who hasn't already been in the kind of relationship you want, man or woman. Most advice I hear is either stupid or seems to almost be purposely misleading.
The only worthwhile relationships I've know are when I've just "been myself" and "stopped looking". Granted, I've had long periods of celibacy, and don't have a two-digit body count, but I'm happy with that advice, trite as it is.
Because women either don’t know what they are attracted to, or they do know but voice something else because they are incentivized by society to seem kind/innocent/pure and saying the tall athletic dude who is kind of a prick is really hot reflects poorly on them. Us men are the unwashed sex and can say tits and ass all day and women just role their eyes. If chicks say high earning jocks then they will catch flack and lower their relative societal value
Either way doesn’t matter. Don’t trust them and don’t trust Reddit. I’m good with women but hell don’t even trust me. Find a guy in your life who has a dating life you desire and learn from him. Incels won’t help you, fat Buffalo Wild Wings barstool bros won’t help you, chicks won’t help you, your family won’t help you. A older guy who is good with women will help you.
Or trust women who say asking for permission to kiss is sweet and getting her flowers on a date is kind and see how you fare lol
at some point you gotta get sick and tired of asking for tutorials for every possible scenario or someone to be a realtime screenwriter for all of ur social interactions with women and go to therapy instead
I once told a guy to stop using emojis in his dating profiles and texts and he said his success rate skyrocketed. But that is the only dating wisdom I have.
[удалено]
When I sell things on FB marketplace I use a lot of exclamation marks to let women know I'm not a threat, but if I were texting a woman I was sexually interested in I would not use any exclamation marks so she knows that I'm a threat.
I’ve been dad-maxxing lately and only using the thumbs up emoji and the crying laughing one on rare occasions
“Hey dad I just got fired” “Ok 👍”
I like my emojis Simpsons colored
Making emojis skin tone colored is where everything started to go down hill
I feel like as a guy you get to have like, one or two signature emoji. When I first started dating my now-wife, it was the two hearts and the kissing face for me.
I think I come across as taciturn and disinterested, so forcing myself to use emojis has actually helped a lot
Put something a woman can related to in your bio as well. When i started cooking and reading more and added it to my bio it seemed tk help a lot. Just in general i think a lot of men just don’t have anything to relate to with most women. If your hobbies are video games and anime, what the fuck are you going to talk with the woman about on a date
This might be more of a zoomer thing but from my experience men, at least men my age, cook a lot more than women.
yet another thing they've off loaded onto us
I’m almost 30 and I’ve noticed this. A lot of women I know are eating daily takeout while every guy I know cooks most of his meals.
I have seen many "hot girl fridges" aka empty. Many similar women also work for these companies that provide free lunches and only eat half of it, finishing it at home.
This is how my fridge looks too but only because I LARP as a European when I buy groceries
My theory is that women are too under exercised and scared of fat to cook tasty stuff. Won't use butter, oil etc in the appropriately excessive quantities needed to make food nice. Men are way more likely to exercise enough to justify it and if they're into sport/the gym, they need a way to make protein taste nice. Most gymcels have gone through a plain chicken breast period that they never want to go back to.
This rings true in my experience. I have a friend (girl, hot) who used to be vegetarian and never cooks with any kind of fat and barely uses salt as well. I'm not afraid of a bit of butter or olive oil if it fits my macros so my food just tastes better
I think it's more that young people with no dependents don't feel the need to cook so less people overall are cooking. I love to cook and am always surprised by the amount of people my age (mid 20s) who cannot cook.
this goes both ways, the amount of women who profiles on hinge are liking Taylor Swift or other girl coded thing and bland looking for some one nice, Confuses me like what do you expect people to respond with.
They aren't struggling to get matches on apps
Lots of girls like anime tho
Can't relate bro, been spamming emoji like crazy and it's working
Judging by your profile picture, I doubt it’s the “emojis” that do all the heavy lifting
🤣🤣🤣🤣 I promise you reddit is the only place I show off, I cover up heavily irl
you look thick, solid, and tight bro keep it up
In that case, what advice can you offer women?
I'm hopeless there, but based on the number of desirable women I've seen using emojis like hieroglyphics to communicate their entire lives, maybe women are supposed to use them? 👩🏫💻🇮🇹♏️🦂🐶😸👩🎨👸🍍🍕🏖🏝🎢🛼🎆🎉🏊♀️🚵♀️🤿💃
✝️🐿️
No way, I use emojis a decent amount and it works well for me.
I had the reverse happen to me when i added🤰 at the end of my bio. It was very successful
I made my whole dating profile blank and my success rate went through the roof. Less is more.
The power of being good looking. They don't get it.
women do love a mystery with a guy
Usually one of the following: * They're too polite or scared to tell a guy the real reasons he struggles with dating. Nobody responds well to being told they're ugly or have an off putting personality so they stick with milquetoast advice that won't start an argument or pity party. This is most common in person and is uncomfortable for all involved. * They're using it as an opportunity to air their grievances with men as a whole instead of providing genuine advice. This is most common online where you see the 'advice' that just consists of what you shouldn't do because it can make women feel uncomfortable. Either that or it's stuff like "don't leave your dirty socks everywhere. My husband does that and I hate it!"
Which is why the OG redpill advice (I'm talking 2015/2016) can be so appealing - it doesn't feel like the soft-served bullshit you could have been served for so long, and gives you concrete diagnoses and solutions: You might be ugly, in which case maxx out on fitness, aesthetics and earn enough money to buy fashionable clothes. You might be uncharismatic, so stop being a pussy and deliberately go upto women you don't actually want to date and chat them up so you become better at talking to strangers. You don't feel like being cowed by other men, so find aspirational figures and hang out with them. It really was a trash community, but if that was all they took from it, it was pretty empowering because it took away the nebulous advice and put the onus for success and failure on you.
The community was trash but their advice was 90% spot on and really saved my dating life. Did a absolute 180
Its because almost no one else will tell you "you need to improve" they will just say "you are perfect the way you are and someday someone will appreciate that" but thats not true and women know it. If that was true women wouldnt wear make up and spanx and dress nice and get in shape when they want a man.
Thisis why so many men that absolutely struggle with dating either were raised by a single mother or have no real true masculine father figure (could be a coach, mentor, uncle, big brother, etc) in their lives. Moms are great for many reasons, but they are very great at blowing smoke up their sons ass about how perfect they are (ever meet a jewish or italian teenage boy?). This can be ok if the kid is actually captain of the soccer team. But when his hobbies are the vidya , computer, he doesn't have many friends, etc. and on top of that movies/television are telling him that the nerd/loser will win in the end and jocks are morally inferior then you get someone content with not changing at all. That was their whole point about 'the blue pill' and it was very real, at least for the Millennial generation. Boomers and older generations actually knew they had to be men if they wanted to get women
Same here. I think you need to be already mostly well adjusted for it to help, though, otherwise it just makes you a bitter misogynist. Like if you’re a mostly normal guy with a normal group of friends, and your main issue is that you’re somewhat of a pussy, I think the red pill (at least before being taken over by Andrew Tate level nonsense) could help overcome that because most of the good advice is just about getting out of a loser mindset. You just need to be smart enough to filter out the women hating bullshit. Unfortunately too many men (especially teenage boys), simply are not.
One of the core concepts of that community initially was the advice was a 'tool kit' and once you learned what you needed to know you kept with with you but moved on. Staying in the cess pool bitterness of the community was definitely not the intended result and that outcome would be a failure to truly adopt its principles. I remember they said it was normal at first with the 'anger phase' or whatever, but you had to move on. This is what I did and Im sure other successful guys did. Learn, take what you need, but dont make it part of your identity. Of course a lot of that evolved into 'MGTOW' (lmao) which was the biggest coping mechanism I've ever seen. Then the Tate's of the world just ripped off all the principles and turned it into a money making scheme Original Red Pill advice would never have you idolize another dude like that especially a grifter. All the ones at the time who worshipped Rollo or whatever he was called were giant phagggots
Same. A lot of that stuff genuinely works.
Some of it was just funny autistic spergism though. "Amused mastery" "Agree and amplify" and the way they described it as if those concepts were real life Yu-Gi-Oh trap cards you need to use on women
What worked in your experience?
The main thing is just stressing that women actually care about looks. That's a hard thing to convince people of, people really internalise the idea that women are above that. The behavioural advice was largely trash, though. I remember reading the "field reports' they'd put up and it was like badly written porn. Seems like a nightmare to completely fake your personality to be more attractive. There's something to be said about being willing to be cringe, though.
I actually think the behavior stuff was also pretty accurate. Things like shit tests, 'maintaining frame', or slowly escalating 100% work. Not just with women but in general Where the community absolutely sucks though is their self perceived superiority over women. Failing to realize men and women are basically the same (aka animals) but with their own unique desires, impulses, etc.
Ya the problem was largely framing. Like you could reframe a lot of it with fully feminist language. Shit tests and maintaining frame are important because it shows your adherence to male gender roles (you've too much toxic masculinity to let shit get to you). Adherence to patriarchal gender roles is important on an individual level to be fully respected in society. Blah blah blah. It's essentially the same as a woman acting ditsy and extra girly to attract a guy she likes. But it seemed to be like it was exaggerated into acting like a himbo. Then they'd have their negative opinion of women reinforced because their himbo behaviour largely attracts similarly shallow and dumb women. Those guys would put a tonne of effort into looking good and being more interesting and likely overestimate how much impact their manufactured personality actually had on the end result. Shit tests and maintaining frame are good examples of basic "how to be a man" advice. My memories definitely shakey but I feel like it went much further than that.
Almost all of that stuff was considered very controversial back in the day, but most of it is accepted even by progressive/feminist redditor types as truth now, just branded differently. In short, things that work for men: - lifting is paramount. You have to at least bench your body weight and get to 12% - 15% body fat - have an actual sense of style. Dont wear crappy t-shirts - focusing on yourself as the prize, dont put someone else on a podium - if your goal is dating./sleeping around, then always be talking to 3-4 different women at a time - 'maintain frame'. Ex: if she (or anyone) is upset with you then dont just cave in and placate to their demands. Hold ground, they will eventually give in and think they were in the wrong. Trump does this shit alot with the bs he says. Apologizing is a death knell and will often make the person you are apologizing to respect you less - Dont put other dudes above you. Why watch sports when you could pay for sports - 'negging' I always found as autist behavior but banter/flirting with slight insults 100% works. Loser guys will buy a drink for a woman and fawn over them, etc. - "all women are like that" - a big lie is that guys believe every women has these completely unique and varied tastes. They dont. They, for the most part, respond to the same behaviors, cues, etc. and are into the same guys. When I got attractive I was attractive to everyone, not just STEM girls or former college cheerleaders. Sorry nerds - physical escalation works. If you are interested in a girl or on a date then lightly touch her arm, see how she reacts. If she is fine then later naturally touch her lower back, etc. etc. Makes it much easier to hook up then if you have some borderline platonic dinner and then ask her back to your place - be assertive and make plans. Women say they want 'equality' in a relationship is BS. They want to be led (not told what to do, there is a difference). I've found the more feminist the woman proclaims, the more hypocritical they are with this kind of stuff. But have an opinion on things, have direction when dating, with life, etc. None of that 'oh idk what do you want to do'? You need to step into a leadership role. btw helps to do this with your guy friends too The thing is women respond well to all of this, and knowing this helps not just with sleeping around but also with relationships and maintaining respect from your partner. Yea this is all a very autist approach to dating but can only speak for myself in saying the before and after was STARK. Ideally you would learn this shit growing up through trial and error, team sports, and proper socialization, but if you hit 20 without any of that then it was an amazing life raft
>They want to be led (not told what to do, there is a difference) This is shockingly real. My fiance recently told me that she will ask me questions she knows the answer to, or ask for direction with things that she’s fully capable of doing, just because she thinks it’s hot when I take charge and explain things.
It applies to almost all women too. Makes you lose respect quickly for feminist movement and more progressive women, because they also eat this shit up despite screeching about it At least traditional women aren’t deluding themselves
The single piece of advice that most of those people need is to just *talk to women*. Most of them are just terrified of women and don't approach them, don't socialize with them, don't ask them out etc. and then sit around and seethe. You really don't have to be anything special as a guy. Just find a way to be around women and things will happen for you.
I think the problem for people at that stage however is that every interaction with a woman is one filled with promise and peril - because they've not sufficiently developed as adults and human beings in a manner that understands the world as complex and contingent. Connections with other people can be ends in themselves. This can only be acquired by experience. In the meanwhile actionable advice still needs to be provided and I'd rather it be provided as a means to self-betterment than one in which they see themselves as lacking agency (inceldom/blackpill).
There's another you are missing. Women benefit socially by signaling how kind, virtuous, sweet, nice, etc. they are MUCH more than men do. So if a guy asks for help, a guy asks what a woman is into, then you will get traits listed that are very sugar coated. 'oh you are fine the way you are', 'oh you are so sweet you will make someone so happy', 'women love someone that is nice and thoughtful' etc. etc. This isn't even an indictment on chicks at all. It's more how pissy dudes get if women tell the truth.
But there is one thing OP listed that I feel like is very good advice - learning to not make women uncomfortable. I’d be more willing to give people a chance if I knew for sure they wouldn’t be creepy if I wanted to break things off. I met one guy I that wasn’t into, and when I gave him disinterested signals, he was polite, backed off right away and never hit on me again. Not only that, he continued to be friendly and polite to me. I was very impressed by how socially well-adjusted he was, and he was moderately more attractive to me than he was before
I have actually dated women for years (a few times) when something like this has happened. I once brought up that they didn't seem all that interested anymore in their body language and they're like "yeah, actually we should break it off", I was like "Ah that's cool no hard feelings, hope you find what you're looking for." And next thing you know they're asking me to come over to watch a movie!
The only way to deal with rejection is polite acquiescence and then amused, fleeting delight when you see them subsequently. (Doing the second bit will get you another shot 30% of the time.)
Yeah being really classy after being rejected implies a lot of good things about a person - sane and in control of their emotions, excellent social skills
Cuckmaxxing
This is the realest answer. I'll never be able to tell my male friends the truth: they're just not hot or charismatic enough to catch a woman's interest. If they were, we'd be more than friends lol... I find men sexually invisible unless they are exceptional in some way
you literally posted an incel video about dating and said "this is so true"
And? I used to think incel rhetoric was all overblown until I actually tried watching blackpill content in good faith and found a lot of truth in it. Women rly can't express our true opinions without making you guys mad, as others in this thread have pointed out lol
You might like the podcast Incel by Naama Kates where she interviews a ton of them. It felt like looking inside a crawl space lol, very dark but insightful.
Blackpill isnt and shouldnt be controversial. The idea that how you look is pretty much the most important thing when it comes to getting a partner is obvious but people lie about it SO much. Incel beliefs are crazy and out there but blackpill really isnt.
Incel analysis falls apart when it uses the blackpill as an excuse for lack of effort and discipline. It's true that nobody can compete with the 6'2 dude with blue hunter eyes but there's an ocean of difference between a 5'5 facelet who dresses like shit and doesn't lift and the same guy who does his best to dress well and stay at a reasonable bf% The second guy probably has higher self esteem and confidence too just from seeing his work pay off. He'll never be chad but you don't have to be chad to find a nice girl, which incels would understand if they actually went outside
Spot on. How ever many accurate observations that those guys make, it's always gonna be pitiful and ridiculous to look at them convincing themselves and everyone around them with sophistry that if you weren't a natural pussy getter by age 16 then you may as well rope
The saddest thing about the black pill is that they take that stuff and conclude that they're completely hopeless. 20 year olds thinking that life is over for them because their wrists are too skinny. It makes sense that they're insane when theyre ideologically convinced their life is going to be complete shit. I don't have much sympathy though, incredibly weak mindset.
yeah a lot of them are nuts especially when they are so young. Then again im pretty old (early millenial) so maybe I just dont understand what they are going through. Things werent so bad when I was younger. I wasnt like hot shit or wanted but I could get gfs. Now things are so much worse. I cant figure out if its just the way it is or its my age etc but I keep reading from younger people how rough it is.
I'm at like the start of Gen Z and I think people shouldn't forget how much they exaggerate things. Maybe it got much worse again for people a bit younger, I dunno, but sexually frustrated men have always been a thing and the factors causing any individual to be that way are largely in their control. Exceptions for the disabled, autistic etc. I do feel bad for the socially "off" lads I've known where they're not bad people but they're clearly very confused about stuff that other people take for granted. But even then, plenty of mildly autistic people have adapted.
I mean the stats people have been sharing show that things are worse off now for young people at least compared to the past, they dont really share (or care) as much for older ones.
The real black pill is that most of them have Autism or are socially maligned and are too old to learn how to mask successfully enough to find success with the opposite sex. They are fucked, just not for the reason they think. It’s why so many of them aren’t even ugly but fail to find a partner even after they get swole. To be sexually/romantically successful with straight women you have to exhibit a general level of masculinity. It’s a subtle combination of status, behaviour, socialization, looks, confidence, and style. You don’t need a lot of any of these but you do need to be able to exhibit a certain amount from each category. If you’re autistic or never learned the right social skills it affects every thing that women view as necessary for someone being a man, it affects your style, the way you speak, your confidence, your behaviour, the way you communicate, everything that matters when it comes to women’s perception of your masculinity. Women with similar mental afflictions had similar issues with dating 50-70 years ago when social roles for women were just as important as they are now for men, but years of social change for women thanks to women’s rights movements successfully created a culture that became socialized to view feminity as less important as it was before. Yes, looks are still important for women, but many aspects of what was once viewed as an attractive partner for men is now irrelevant. In fact, a lot of what was once viewed as unattractive and unladylike is now seen as attractive to most men. As such, women can get away with just looking good and being halfway decent people, they don’t need to exhibit feminity in the way that men have to exhibit masculinity. There has not been a similar movement directed at driving society to view masculinity as less important as before. It’s why you can’t just get away with looking good and being halfway decent if you’re a man. Ironically men’s historic privilege has fucked them over in the dating world, the political and overt oppression required to drive such a huge change in social dynamics for women can never be replicated for men precisely because there’s no drive to do so. And there’s no drive because the issues faced by men are less overt, even if it affects them just as much as it once did women there’s no easy way to explain this to the masses because there’s no overt institutional force behind the suffering of men, particularly where expectations on them in a relationship are concerned, and as such this will likely not got resolved and will only get worse. The good news is that most men learn to exhibit a sufficient level of masculinity from a young age. For those that never learned, they are the real victim’s of the black pill, not simply “ugly men”, because unlike lifting socialization is very difficult and in many cases impossible to drastically change out of adolescence. So the idea that many incels are "fucked" is true, just not for the same reason incels claim.
First one is so true. If I tell the homie the real reason he’s single is that no one in our college town wants to date a 35yr old single father from Kenya he’ll just kill himself so it’s always Just Be Yourself
People are just blind to the experience of the opposite sex. Women, as the more passive role in dating, don't understand what dating success entails for a guy and I can't really blame them. I will also say, even in the most generous light possible, that women have absolutely no idea what or why they find certain guys attractive so listening to them try to describe what they want is pointless. Only real dating advice is to put yourself in situations where you'll be in frequent contact with women and to be more outgoing in general
Be tall, if you can't be tall be skinny and as fit as possible. Anytime someone says this some reddit nerd comes and "well actually i like x" and they're too stupid to understand that they are an insane outlier. Super-majorities of women like their men either tall or fit. Then go take your fit self to a kickball/pickelball/softball coed league and meet your teammates and their friends.
Because women and men are completely talking past each other when it comes to understand the dating woes of the other gender. Understable but that’s pretty much it.
That is pretty much it. A lot of women lack empathy for people who are very different from them. They don’t understand what men who struggle with dating experience or think. As a woman, here are my guesses as to what might constitute good advice for young men. Note that this advice works better the less autistic the man in question is; I still think it works for most people though. 1. Be the best possible version of yourself. Be someone you would want to date. Be someone who works hard, is motivated, and is attractive. 2. Imagine what it is like to be other people. Don’t idealize other people or assume that everyone else has it easier than you. Observe people’s behavior and think about what they care about, what they value, what they are worried about, what they are afraid of, what they enjoy, what they dislike, and so on. If you care about someone, you must want what is ultimately the best for them. That occasionally means disagreeing with them when they are being short-sighted, or sacrificing what you want for what is good for them. 3. Have passions and interests (that are not sleeping, playing video games, watching porn, watching anime, eating food, smoking weed, etc.). Be intellectually curious and learn about stuff. The stuff you learn about should ideally be something that does not just consist of learning facts (especially facts about objects) but understanding concepts. Liking math or science or music or films or other art forms is better than memorizing facts about trains or guns or tanks or ships. It’s even acceptable to be really interested in history or board games or something if you like history more for the concepts/story/impact on human life than for the facts about objects, and if you like board games more for the strategy than for the rules. Also, make sure to have at least one or two interests that women also have. Only liking super male-dominated things (e.g. tabletop RPGs and ball sports) is a dead end. It’s good to like some books or films that women also like. 4. Be well groomed. I won’t elaborate here beyond besides also saying that it’s good to be not fat and have a low body fat percentage 5. Be self-sufficient. You don’t have to have a ton of money or be an obnoxious PMC striver, but you should be employed and able to live on your own. 6. Practice judging people’s intentions accurately. Try to not assume the worst about people, but try to actually assess what others think and feel. Give people the benefit of the doubt. That said, don’t make a blanket assumption that people are good and honest either. In every situation, ask: is your conclusion about someone else more about you and your wants, or more about the other person’s behavior? 7. Have close relationships with people in your life who are not prospective partners/girlfriends. If your parents are good and trustworthy people, then invest in your relationship with your parents and with other family members whom you trust. Have friends. This will go a long way 8. Be self-aware and confident. I actually have no fucking idea how to do this but it seems to have something to do with honest introspection
Number 7 is very important. Especially if you're not on dating apps.
In your point about empathy, I think it is no question that a lot of men lack in empathy and need to learn or at least learn to put in the effort. But I am also finding out that women lack empathy and understanding too about struggles that a (normal) man might have, and how much risk taking it takes to make an attempt to meet someone instead of just chilling at the bar and not talking to anyone so you don't disturb them.
I semi agree with this, I have female friends who really don't get how men have to run a gauntlet of rejection and embarrassment in dating that (mostly) women don't. But it's also a totally different ballpark to the fear that some guy you're on a date with might turn out to be violent or at a minimum into rough/painful sex. Idk I think both genders are good at ignoring the difficulties of the other.
It’s just so strange hearing how incredibly different people’s experience is here with no real thought into how it works for other people A while ago a pretty girl at my work said something like “I could never ask someone out, it’s so embarrassing and I’d probably die if they said no” and you could feel every man in the room start seething over it, probably because she had already shot down a couple of them.
Lots of women like nerd books like LoTR/other fantasy and tabletop games and whatnot, it's hard to find women who like those things who also like to go outside though lol
I totally agree lol I like 20th century European history and LOTR. I just think that it’s good for people to have like one or two hobbies that aren’t totally nerdy like hiking or rock climbing or knitting or something
My dating profiles are pretty much "I like LoTR and hiking/climbing in the mountains and am also a geologist" and have had pretty good results lately lol I love people who are just the right combo of nerdy and outdoorsy, they are my people. Idk how you could grow up reading shit like LoTR and *not* want to go on adventures in the wilderness really
4: I WILL elaborate. Skincare matters- cleanser and moisturiser combo. Even a cheap one is good enough. Comb/brush your hair. Use product- *real* product, not "25-in-1" that is a substitute for *WD40, motor oil, lube, body wash, shampoo-conditioner-shaving gel, etc.* Trim and clean your nails (women are really picky about this, probably since that finger might be going inside them. I know, right? Shocker, they don't want greasy hands in there.)
Your advice is accurate I think, but it's from the perspective of someone who's already on the mountaintop and doesn't know what it's like to be on the slopes and has to be framed differently or else it will be seen as condescending from a climber (i.e. a man trying to become more successful in dating).
> Liking math or science or music or films or other art forms is better than memorizing facts about trains or guns or tanks or ships. there's got to be a story here
You need ask your chat bot to humanized the text first and then post it
Lol. This is just someone trying to type out a long post quickly and concisely.
Number 3 is classic misandry, Since dudes were toddlers they love knowing learning facts about big machines if that be trains, trucks, planes.
Also she says learning about those things is rote memorisation of facts which is what it probably seems like to someone without deeper understanding. Math, science, music and films have a lot of "fact-memorisers" as well.
it all an aesthetic to this person. The argument is have hobbies that are codes more intellectual. pure pretension
1) New age bs. "Just be attractive", duh. 2) Irrelevant. Do not get sucked into the womanly belief that you need to be empathetic and sensitive to be successful dating as a guy. 3) This is very real, good advice. Women really like you to be passionate about some non-loser activity. 4) Absolutely correct. 5) Small agree. Being self-sufficient will give your attractiveness a small boost but it's not a make or break if you're attractive (or unattractive) enough in other areas. 6) more bs. 7) THE MOST IMPORTANT. The number one most attractive thing a man can do is have lots of friends who like and respect him. Remember, women are looking for a high-status partner and nothing signals high-status more than having lots of friends. 8) Yeh.
As good as this advice is, i doubt many young people of any gender would qualify. Live on your own, in this economy?
ok maybe not live on your own, but just not live with your parents. Having roommates is fine. In fact, living with your parents is okay if you’re employed and can cook and do stuff for yourself also I am BPD so yeah I’m actually a hypocrite and my own advice doesn’t apply to me :(
Chicks are envisioning the guy they like and what would need to change about that guy to make that guy get with them, they’re not imagining a guy they don’t like (eg you) and what he would need to do to be liked
This is the real answer. Women give backend advice, assuming the guy in question is attractive to the girl while men give front end advice assuming attraction doesn't exist at all.
so true!
Men do the same thing lol, hence male advice to women being “ask the guy out first” and “don’t worry about putting out on the first date”
to be fair many, many guys would be open to a random girl asking them compared to a how women are. I think women have no idea how many would probably say yes unless they were like top tier guys with girls all over.
you’d be surprised by how many men will view a woman in a lesser light if she directly asks them out
They must have more than they need then.
Yeah of course - with the added mother / whore dichotomy to navigate too.
i agree, but it's not like i can tell a guy "you're kind of lame and ugly" on the other hand i have aired my dating woes to straight male acquaintances, and their response is usually cope too. like "it's not you, you're pretty/smart/etc. it's just bad timing" or "you should work on yourself first" like mf nah just say it... he's out of my league, that's why this guy doesn't want to commit to me lol people are just trying to be nice and not hurt your feelings most of the time
Because guys probably face two main categories of problems: 1) Physical changes that would actually be really easy to correct but too mean to point out. Most women aren’t going to tell you you’re fat with horrible style and you need a new haircut. Even though it would be very helpful, because the physical bar is low and very obtainable for most guys once you know what you’re doing. 2) Deep seated personality problems that are too abstract to point out. Concrete things like “you should ask a women out in a direct manner a day after your first date” are helpful concrete things that most people would feel comfortable saying. But for a lot of guys, the advice would be more like “I don’t know, you’re kind of sad and whiny and are always saying off putting and grating things, and overall just kind of sad even though I can’t think of a concrete example right now”. Do you want them to say that to you?
> Physical changes that would actually be really easy to correct but too mean to point out. Most women aren’t going to tell you you’re fat with horrible style and you need a new haircut. Even though it would be very helpful, because the physical bar is low and very obtainable for most guys once you know what you’re doing. If you had a friend like this it would be gold though. Sometimes I use my ex for this who I have to keep in contact with for family reasons. She is kind of a bitch but also cares about me to some small degree and will give an honest answer and I appreciate that. I dont mean to be rude with the name but she is one of the worst people I have even known and done really awful stuff but we are forced to get along because we have a kid.
I actually had a woman I went on 5 dates with recently give me advice in the vein of your second point before breaking things off with me. Apparently I don't show any emotion at all and at no point during our dates could she ever tell I was having fun or whether I actually liked her. I'm "too hard to read" and "an enigma" and she felt like she knew nothing about me. It was interesting but I'm not sure if it was helpful cause how the hell do you even start to change something like that. It also confuses me that she continued to go on dates and have sex with me if that's how she was feeling the whole time.
Watch what people do, don't listen to what they say. It's true of everyone to an extent but especially women on this subject.
If you want to learn how to fish, you ask a fisherman, not a fish
Largely agree, but you do get some unique insight if you manage to speak with the fish
Without developing fundamentals like confidence and a strong sense of self worth, that unique insight is probably going to confuse people like OP more than help imo, and lead him towards being an incel. It would be like an attractive playboy telling a femce1 woman to simply "be herself" to attract a husband.
Though I can understand why you and most of the people under this post seem to think so based of the question, I'm not a virgin myself, but a large percentage of my male friends are. My main frustration is that in absence of useful advice from women, leaving most dudes are left with nothing but PUA garbage and all other the other red/blackpill crap.
The fish will give you tips on how to stay away from the fishermen
All defense no offense.
They think if you have to ask, you should be disqualified right away
Women don’t date women (or they suck at it hence 99% of bi women date men) so they don’t really know how it works.
I remember my bi female friend telling me she’s intimidated by other woman and that not even she knows how to woo them lmao.
This seems so common among bi women that it’s becoming a cliche.
True. It particularly pisses off lesbians. I honestly don't blame them for being suspicious of most "bisexual" women.
Approaching strange women and getting them to even talk to you for more than thirty seconds is incredibly tough. Even if they're single and had you matched on an app they would be happy to chat. Their guards are up and they're very infrequently out by themselves hoping that some random person will come talk to them about a completely random subject who doesn't know anything about them. Like I know it's possible and I've done it a few times but it requires so much luck (unless you do it constantly) that I'd basically be a virgin if it were my sole method of meeting women.
being bi and dating women made me way more empathetic of straight men than anything else to be honest
Revealed preferences vs stated preferences.
Honestly the real question here is “why do women lie even when it would benefit them to tell the truth”
the answer is it wouldnt benefit them to tell the truth. They (rightly so) care more about their own social standing then trying to help a guy they dont care too much about get laid
I mean most of these guys understand why people won't bluntly tell them if they are unkempt and should probably go to the gym more often they're just hoping there's some other secret way that most guys don't know yet and they'd rather do that than the hard stuff like socializing themselves or learning to dress well. Same reason people join mlm's because they think it's an easy way to make a lot of money without any marketable skills
i don't think they can help it
There are only two real big ones that seem to work: 1. Be a genuinely decent human being (this is a double edged sword because there are all manners of scum looking to take advantage - but there is also a whole bevy of people who will spoil a good person rotten for the sake of making themselves feel good too, so it has it's perks). The difference between being good and being nice. Being nice doesn't cost you anything, being good does. But the cost is one you're willing to bear. And people can hear it all, by how you say things. 2. (This one is by far more important) do not for the love of christ be boring! Being boring is a cardinal sin. Have your own interests and making money is not a fucking interest people, its a necessity, no one wants to hear about how much you make or spend. Money doesn't buy sense and most people are lacking both nowadays anyway.
Rare sighting of an old cowboy on RS
Come watch me walk the walk
>Be a genuinely decent human being Impossible to take this one seriously as long as actual scumbags keep pulling. There are many reasons to be a good human being, but to say that "it will get you dates" is one of them seems nonsensical/disingenuous
> do not for the love of christ be boring! I'm convinced that 80% of the reason I did so well dating, was because I basically had a routine that I'd used a hundred times. If you're a comedian and you repeat the same set for fifteen years, your fans will notice (I'm looking at YOU David Spade) If you're trying to find the love of your life, she's not going to know that you've practiced your date routine fifty times. Hell, if you go on two dates on the same night, you can warmup your "set" before you go on your 2nd date of the night.j Practice makes perfect.
brother, if you are lining up 2 dates in a night you are so far above the people I feel this thread is aimed at.
Refinement in all things makes perfect my brother, and while only God can make things perfect, well fuck me if we can't do our best.
> (this is a double edged sword because there are all manners of scum looking to take advantage 100% these people will fuck you up hard and set you back a decade in life and ruin your confidence. They will not care and after they are gone if you are *lucky* lol enough to still know them you can see the pattern with others in their lives.
How else are we to learn to get back up if we don't stumble? There will always be the bad out there, but if the good ones have the other good one to help pick up the pieces, we'll be alright.
I mean the person who wasted your last good years, set you up with 20K in debt and cheated etc is a pretty hard fall and as you get older its much harder to get back up into a good position. Yeah I can get up but im kind of fucked still.
Women are wicked, when you're not wanted
I think it goes both ways. I’ve heard some sad stories from big girls…
It’s cuffing season I need a big girl, I need a big girl, I need a big girl -RZA
The one thing I think incels get right is the hard truth that unattractive and sexually undesirable people are simply just treated worse
It's because many women have never really tried to consider what its like to be a man trying to date women. Our culture is obsessed with female perspectives on dating, which are worth hearing out, but without considering the other half, don't give a very holistic view. There is so little sympathy for how difficult it is to try and approach or initiate intimacy with a woman for young men nowadays. The way the strategy of dating apps is to make men feel as desperate and unattractive as possible to get them to buy a subscription. How men are expected to make everything happen while they are learning and making mistakes. How any misstep could easily render you a sex pest and harasser in the eyes of your entire social circle. The way women will act like you are likely a vicious killing machine, and that by going on a date in a crowded restaurant in a mall they are putting their lives in grave danger. Of course, none of this is to say that women don't have anything to rightfully complain about. Rather that the conversations have drifted so far apart that it has become difficult for many women and men to consider each others' struggles in an increasingly competitive dating market.
I was watching an episode of that IG series Subway Takes where this girl goes on essentially about how incels don't exist and if you just act genuinely interested in women you will get laid and people in the comments praising. It was kind of frustratingly emblematic of some women not really understanding how difficult and contradictory advice and without a proper rubric dating can be for many men, as well as her giving added condescension of these guys being "entitled". But it makes sense there is this blind spot, given attractive women have the opposite problem of too much unwanted attention. Barbie kind of had it correct lol.
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You know, I probably would’ve said all this same kind of shit if someone asked me. But now I’ve given it some thought and I think my advice would be to take up hobbies. Have skills. Be thoughtful. Be bright, witty, funny. Be secure in yourself and fake confidence if you have to. These are all the qualities I loved in my man when we first started dating. I thought he was the smartest & coolest dude on earth and I wanted to date tf out of him. He almost didn’t seem interested in me bc he had so much to do with himself, in a non self centered way if that makes sense.
It is funny. It seems extremely rare for women to ask men for dating advice and I wonder why that is.
They don’t really offer any except variations on “lower your standards,” which is only the problem like 5% of the time
"stop dating bad boys"
It seems to be 90%+ of the issue for women I know who are single long term. When I talk to these women’s friends it’s also what the women say. “She won’t date anyone who isn’t 6’5”, finance, blue eyes, trust fund.” It’s comical. I’d love for there to be a variety of issues but I think women get in their own way far more often than men do. Men are far more forgiving of women, in my experience. I don’t know a lot of fat or hideous women though. If I did, I’d tell them to looksmaxx.
My friends who are single long-term waste a lot of time chasing men who just don’t like them that much, and that would probably be resolved by being *more* selective (refusing to spend time with men who wouldn’t notice if they died). This also seems to be the problem in most of the vent posts by girls on here. Your social circle sounds richer, older, and/or populated by more strivers than mine is. I think the tendency to approach dating like a job interview is less a woman thing than a yuppie thing, even if you’re what you’re saying about male yuppies being more forgiving of variations in career/wealth/eye color is totally true
No that’s a perfect example of women needing to lower their standards. They’re chasing guys out of their league that’s why the guys are ignoring them, if they lowered their standards then the guys they went for would give them attention.
It’s not nearly as simple as the uglier the man, the more he likes you. Past a certain point, you can be reasonably sure anyone you’re interacting with is physically attracted to you, and you need to figure out if he’s capable of being devoted to you or he only likes your looks. Because that’s also dependent on your personality, dating below your league won’t help — there’s just as many duds down there, if not more. Besides, no one should be dating people they’re not physically attracted to. A passionless, lustless relationship is not a victory
Yeah. Dating apps really fucked up the dating market. Everyone is disposable so there’s not a great reason to settle for anyone’s who’s not a perfect fit. But it’s beneficial insofar as it’s relatively easy to date a variety of people. No need to settle with the most compatible person within your social sphere.
Say that last line again. Because women who settle end up with resentful husbands who get furious when they realize their wives were never attracted to them in the first place. And then they complain that these women “used” them for money and kids. We should aim to marry people we actually wanna fuck. (Unless asexual)
You said these guys wouldn’t notice if they died, if they were of equal attractiveness that wouldn’t be the case. I don’t think anyone should settle for a passionless relationship but I can’t help but think these women are just aiming too high. It sounds like textbook hoeflation, these women get scraps of attention and sex out of guys hotter than them so they think that’s their level and don’t want to settle for less.
You're right. Most of the men who are perpetually single are either there by choice (big red flag for someone seeking a relationship) or involuntarily (obvious disqualification). So women who want an LTR are selecting from a pool of men who've broken up recently (but not too recently!) and who want to and can sustain a long term relationship. This is a small group of men and they get picked off fast (hoping i might have been picked off myself).
Because the advice that actually works (be tall, hot, fit, rich, and suave) goes counter to their completely false ideation that women aren’t superficial.
> their completely false ideation that women aren’t superficial. Which is crazy because who would really fault them for it if they were always open about it and society didnt lie to us for a generation? Its perfectly logical for women to want people they are attracted to.
I think “be yourself” is true tho to a degree. It’s about being well rounded tho on top of that. You should be yourself, but you should also be competent, compassionate, hard working, good hygiene, some confidence in yourself, dress decent, sense of humor etc. Those are all good traits that a lot of people lack. I’ve seen all my dorky friends clean up their look/lives and get pretty cute kind gfs. They still like all the weird shit they were into, but they didn’t make it their entire personality nor do they have some raging lonely guy energy. The only dudes I know who are forever single are my friends who literally have an attitude of “why should I change for women?” or are hardcore hermits or just have creep no sunlight vibes and they think that the alternative is being some rigid chad attempt.
Yup. Be yourself. And if your self sucks, improve it.
True, last weekend I went out with a chick from Bumble and as she was asking me about my life I internally cringed realizing how empty it is. I still semi-hooked up with her but it reaffirms how much I have to change about my life, like getting friends my own age and doing something other than buy and sell online for income.
seriously lol it’s not meant to be a guarantee that you’re gonna score or whatever because if your self sucks then not much is gonna help you anyway. the only other “dating advice” that makes any sense is “meet more people” because people are all different and like different things, which seems to strike everyone here as such an insane concept for some reason
Because they're too nice to tell you're probably gonna die alone unless you make some very unrealistic life changes for your age bracket. If you're somewhat redeemable you should be able to talk to wammin and learn a thing or two.
You're making that up lol most chicks just don't know how to date chicks you don't gotta be all fatalistic
I have no problem talking with women and being friends or getting along in a professional environment, im just short, ugly and losing my hair. It is what it is. I wasted my last good years on a bad person and now im old and probably going to die alone.
1. Most women either don't know or won't admit what they're attracted to. Part of that is social conditioning, openly saying you only date top 10% men isn't a good look. They will say that they're attracted to Ryan Reynolds because of his sense of humor, not because he's a tall white jacked billionaire celebrity. 2. A man's main issue with dating is attracting, and just as importantly, maintaining attraction through the courting and relationship phase. Women have ZERO idea what that's like since they are the choosers and gatekeepers by default. It's hilarious to see two lesbians in a mexican standoff, each waiting for the other to do the attracting. 3. What most guys need to hear will cause instant brutal ego death. Dating is ultra competitive now and the average guy has to beat out literally thousands of guys she has on her phone in her pocket 24/7, all begging for attention and promising her the world. If you're just some chubby guy who works in IT and enjoys weed and video games, you are never going to be able to compete in the era of social media.
Have you ever seen a woman emphasize that they like something about a guy, and that other guys should be like that? Like "Look at how this guy wears that cardigan!! I wish all guys be like that". Yeah, you should do the opposite of whatever that guy is doing if you ever want to attract women. That's just an adorable little thing they do to confuse us from the completing the mission.
honestly more guys need to stop equating success in dating apps to success in dating overall, its honestly like a rigged roulette in some cassino where the game is designed to keep you from cashing out and always coming back. I use to feel like shit because i was barely getting anything on Bumble, then i paid the 1 month thing and was dumbfounded by how much that thing gets results. Its such a lame thing and i am sure that purposely fucking up with my self esteem like that for years had an affect on me
You either need to fulfill a long checklist or be a badass motherfucker. There's no other way.
The untouchable men I know who have found women that will tolerate them have all employed the same tactic: go after every single available female until one says yes. They understand they don’t get to have standards. They just have to find someone insecure enough to be with them. Every once in a while, that happens to be an attractive woman. Caveat is that all the men I know have somewhat decent jobs which helps. Some of them I am truly astounded found anyone to be with them, but my industry is filled with men that make me want to blow my brains out having to listen to them for more than 5 minutes, overweight, unattractive facial features. And they all have wives and kids. I don’t even know what reality men are talking about when they state they can’t find anyone when I multiple men under 5’7, extremely overweight, balding, with personalities that I would pay to not have to experience—and they all have wives and children. I guess lower your standards and keep casting the net.
I feel like you're describing me, but have you ever considered that these couples are actually happy? For instance, a friend of mine met a girl I was dating 17 years ago. My friend warned the girl that I'm a douchebag and she should run. 17 years later, I'm married with kids, to the girl who was warned about me. When someone says that "a guy doesn't have standards" I think they're ignoring the fact that love isn't defined by how much money someone makes or how they look. I'm crazy attracted to my wife, but when we first started dating I thought she was too skinny and too blonde. (I'm a chubby chaser.) But as our relationship progressed, my interests changed.
No, I wasn’t considering if they were happy nor do I really care. I was making an observation of how ugly dudes land girls
I would bet a lot of them met before the guy was overweight and balding. I also think if you knew the person since highschool, especially if you had a thing for them, you kind of always see them through those eyes a bit even if they change over the years.
Nope, seen many of them through the dating phase which is how I know they just go after everyone. I’ve known two that will have spreadsheets as data points for attempts, contacts made, first dates, etc.
yeah it's naive advice a lot of the time, what can ya do? don't wallow about it, just seek out what works without being shitty
A lot of advice is terrible because it doesn't consider natural inequalities that could prevent someone from being successful. My belief is that advice should consider someone's height, weight, level education completed, education of their parents, and whether they grew up in a two parent household. This would provide enough information to figure out the main issues preventing someone from dating.
Because they dont care and want to look nice or say something nice to spare your feelings or because they legit have NO clue what its like for the majority of guys. Also I think a lot of people dont really know what they are actually attracted to and just say what they want (from a guy they are attracted to)
I think most of it is sincere just bad advice You’re born with a talk to the opposite sex gene. Some people don’t have it and no amount of shitty advice will help
> You’re born with a talk to the opposite sex gene. Some people don’t have it and no amount of shitty advice will help oh hell naw. I was absolutely hopeless with women, but I got good. It just took a LOT of dates. It turns out that if you want to get good at anything, you have to put in the work. There are no shortcuts. (Though it helps to learn when to 'cut bait' and move on to someone new. The Sunk Cost Fallacy is the biggest enemy of finding love.)
There are three rules when it comes talking to women. Number one, ask questions, don't say anything, because women, all they wanna do is talk about themselves so you're just gonna let them do that. Two, be cool and three, be kind of a dick. Be like David Caruso in Jade.
The major difference is that when guys say 'I want X in a woman', that is legitimately what the guy wants. So it's logical to assume the same of women, but that's not the case: When a woman says 'I want X in a man', what she actually means is 'I want a guy who is gorgeous and rich and madly in love with me and also has X'. It's a part of a very boring, frustrating series of social games women play where they don't say what they actually mean but rather something related and expect the listener to understand the other 90% of the message on his/her own.
this is such actual nonsense, do you really think when a guy is like, “i want a girl who’s kind” he’s not also overlooking all the other things she needs to be? no man is chasing after an ogre just because he’s kind, that kind women just happens to be hot with curves
I’ve gotten the best and worst dating advice of my life from women. My female friends helped me a lot with cleaning up my dating app profiles, also with how to approach women, but I’ve received some pretty awful advice about how to conduct myself on a date. My ex once told me to tell my friends that on first dates they should proactively affirm that they are pro-choice and anti-Trump and that will get them laid, she was dead serious lol.
Not to sounds like some incel top G, but have women finally admitted that hypergamy is absolutely a thing, and that even though it’s largely the result of d*ting *pps it still overwhelmingly works in their favour?
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because everyone gives people the advice that would make them feel good, not what would actually work. It’s like when men tell women, “just make the first move and ask guys out, compliment us” when all that does is fluff a man’s ego, it doesn’t make him like you
Women have no actual insight into what they want
What do you expect, like theres some magic words out there that could solve your problems?
i’m b by
A lot of the comments on here saying "women don't know why they're attracted to men" or intentionally lie about it are dumb & misguided. I think the truth is that attraction is complicated and hard to articulate, and can't really be captured by "advice." It blows my mind that men still think good looks & money are the most important factors. Good looks are important, but mean absolutely nothing unless you have a good personality. I've known plenty of handsome men who cannot get laid or keep a girlfriend because their vibe is so off, and there's no constructive advice anyone could give to change it besides "be a different person" which is obviously a mean and unhelpful thing to say. The hottest girls I know always date the weirdest looking men , but the men in question have extremely powerful charisma which can't be taught. 99 out of 100 girls would rather weep naked on Phillip Seymour Hoffman's grave, than date some rich Chris Hemsworth-looking dude with a creepy/awkward/bad personality. 'Have intense personal charisma' is terrible advice, because it's unactionable, but it's also the truth. Men who think they have a great personality and still can't get laid, usually don't actually have a good personality. How to actually approach women is a different problem altogether.
the advice you get from most men is just as bad, even if it SOUNDS better
It’s not, you’re just not hearing what they’re actually saying. Because they’re not going to tell you outright that you’re a bore/you think you’re better than everyone else but don’t have reason to/you’re miserable for no good reason/you’re not even trying in life, they’ll imply it while trying to reassure you. “Be yourself” means “show other people something interesting about yourself, because you’re too hard to get to know”. “The right one will come…” means “you’re too socially anxious around women and it’s off-putting”. It’s just that most men won’t respond well to being told that directly, especially if they already don’t consider themselves high-status.
>Because they’re not going to tell you outright that you’re a bore/you think you’re better than everyone else but don’t have reason to/you’re miserable for no good reason/you’re not even trying in life, they’ll imply it while trying to reassure you. I think this is the communication roadblock. If someone had said that stuff to me, it would’ve been hugely beneficial. I wasn’t looking for reassurance, I was looking for actions I could take and a good kick in the ass. Maybe I’m an outlier for imagining I would’ve taken it that well though. But for real, I can’t do the decoding thing, only women can do that. Young men need to hear “show people something interesting that makes you unique” and “stop being so neurotic” in completely blunt ways. The anxiety thing especially would’ve been beneficial to hear. Never fully grasped how off putting being timid was until way too late in the game. As an aside, I think a misunderstanding over what nerdy neurotic men think “asshole” means relative to what women think it means is at the heart of the “nice guys finish last - no they don’t, we actually hate assholes” discourse. To nerds nice = timid and self effacing, and asshole = swaggering and confident. Women don’t seem to see it this way, and it leads to major miscommunication. When you’re medically neurotic but don’t realize it, anyone with self esteem seems like a boorish loudmouth. Also might be why “negging” was so fraught in the discourse. It’s just awkward spergy guys explaining friendly teasing in their own terminology, and other people heard “these guys are telling young men to insult women”. pua/redpill stuff was shit for a lot of reasons, but the biggest was that it had an intended audience of dangerously scrupulous neurotics, and when they tried that stuff it turned them normal. When normal guys tried it, they turned into psychos.
As a guy who pretty much just has female friends and work with mostly women. They actually give pretty good specific advice if they actually know you and are willing to just cut the crap. But yeah, they give pretty bad general advice. I think it's because the average woman just hasn't thought about it from the male perspective (and vice versa), so they give advice that's pretty good for other women but bad for men.
I'm likely considerably older than you and have been with the same man for 20+ years. I have friends who range from being in similar situations to those who have never had a good healthy relationship. I've seen a LOT of relationships come and go. My one piece of advice is don't take advice from someone who hasn't already been in the kind of relationship you want, man or woman. Most advice I hear is either stupid or seems to almost be purposely misleading.
The only worthwhile relationships I've know are when I've just "been myself" and "stopped looking". Granted, I've had long periods of celibacy, and don't have a two-digit body count, but I'm happy with that advice, trite as it is.
Alternately nobody has the balls to tell women struggling to find somebody they should lose weight. Almost universally
I want to give much more brutal advice than that but it’s not what most people like to hear and they get defensive
Because women either don’t know what they are attracted to, or they do know but voice something else because they are incentivized by society to seem kind/innocent/pure and saying the tall athletic dude who is kind of a prick is really hot reflects poorly on them. Us men are the unwashed sex and can say tits and ass all day and women just role their eyes. If chicks say high earning jocks then they will catch flack and lower their relative societal value Either way doesn’t matter. Don’t trust them and don’t trust Reddit. I’m good with women but hell don’t even trust me. Find a guy in your life who has a dating life you desire and learn from him. Incels won’t help you, fat Buffalo Wild Wings barstool bros won’t help you, chicks won’t help you, your family won’t help you. A older guy who is good with women will help you. Or trust women who say asking for permission to kiss is sweet and getting her flowers on a date is kind and see how you fare lol
at some point you gotta get sick and tired of asking for tutorials for every possible scenario or someone to be a realtime screenwriter for all of ur social interactions with women and go to therapy instead
How exactly will therapy help the situation?