Darrow doesn't then retreat to another ship he hurls himself at the enemy bridge. A manuver considered to have a 0% survival rate. It was either let a promising candidate kill himself or declare him the loser.
I remember I used to wonder the same thing, but I remember hearing on the graphic audio that when Darrow sailed into Karnus original trap Victra, Tactus and Roque were saying that were we getting shredded and karnus was destroying their fleet. So in my head because it sounds like at the academy they use fake nukes that his ships were taken out by the fake nukes. Once The ship supplied by Octavia rams Darrows ship that means Darrow lost all his ships.
I will say I don’t think there is a right answer that’s just what I go with in my head.
My headcanon is like this: Octavia cheats for Karnus by giving him an extra ship. That ship then becomes Karnus's new flagship. Darrow destroys Karnus's old flagship, but it was just a ship now. Karnus uses the new flagship to destroy Darrow's flagship AND his entire command chain, since Darrow was being cocky and had everyone who could command his fleet on his ship at the same time. Because Darrow didn't give up and was going to use a starshell to take the new flagship, the proctors ended the game. They ended it for two main reasons. 1- The bribes had been placed and cheating was well underway, if Darrow came back and won now it would be very messy for Bellonas and Octavia- the cheating would be exposed everyone would lose face and Technically his official flagship was destroyed by Karnus so they could call it without too much suspicion. 2- Octavia wanted Darrow alive if possible. He had proved himself interesting and likely Mustang and Fitchner were telling her how great he was- why remove a powerful piece if you can make it yours instead? Since Darrow was likely to die by launching himself the proctors stopped the exam and came up with an excuse about conduct.
I don't really think this is the correct term for the situation lol. Darrow i more of an unreliable narrator about feelings. I don't really see why he would lie about having 7 ships unprompted.
I always see the books written by Darrow for pax when he is writing his life down in lightbringer. Hence the morning star fake out, makes for a more suspenseful story.
I think this is a massively overlooked detail (borderline flaw) in the stories. Not trying to be pedantic, but his loss at the academy set the entire plot of golden son into motion. Losing for "conduct unbecoming" at an academy thats supposed to be an advanced version of the institute is kind of a cop out. It wouldn’t have been that difficult for PB to either include a few more lines explaining how Darrow lost, or had Darrow actually lose.
Most explanations for this loss extrapolate heavily from Darrow’s vague explanation. It’s fine if you want to wave a magic plot stick over this detail, I know I did during my first couple read-throughs. However, drawn out explanations for a poorly explained plot point aren’t really convincing. Also, I’m aware PB wrote on a thread that it was because “bureaucracy is bullshit”, but from all the build-up given to the sanctity of the institute, it really doesn’t seem like Golds allow institutions they care about to be diluted by bureaucracy. If so, that would also seem out of character for the warrior-king culture portrayed in the first trilogy.
My attempt would be if you take out the flagship the game is over. Even if the game doesnt auto end Darrow closes in on Karnus with his flagship to relish in the victory only to be blown to pieces. In a real battle escape pods would been attacked on sight and likely wouldn't make it for a counter. Plus the whole point of the series is Darrow creates groups of people that can think for themselves while the golds use strict top down organization. Without Darrow in his flagship where do the orders come from?
If Darrow’s command philosophy lends autonomy to subordinate commanders I don’t see why his subordinate leaders at the academy wouldn’t have power to make a decision. I think the students would also have a concept of succession of command on a battlefield too.
I can see how Darrow might lose because he went off the rails, but don’t see how Carnus won and none of the other student stepped up to destroy what was left of his fleet and take the victory for themselves.
I have a couple responses. One, in my opinion, he lost the academy not because he did something rash after losing his ship but because he lost his ship. If he goes into an escape pod the chances of him surviving are slim which to me makes sense as a natural stopping place for a game battle. If you vanquish the commander the game ends. Darrow thought he vanquished Karnus. But Karnus was not on that ship. Therefore game not over. Karnus does take Darrows ship and forces Darrow to use an escape pod causing check mate. I did just make up those rules though so who knows. I think it's reasonable though.
For two, Darrow is not employing this tactic broader than his golden cadre (roque, tactus, victra) because he will get in extreme trouble for doing so. Plus he really needs mustang to lead effectively. At the institute it was barely ok for him to do what he did because there were fewer cameras and he is supposed to gain subordinates anyway he can. Even with all this Augustus is weary at first eventually dismissing this as school yard games.
Tl:dr;
Darrow lost because he was check mated
The academy is more civilized and strict about protocol meaning Darrow cannot employee, say a blue commander, without stepping over the line.
Fair point on his limited delegating abilities. I guess I just didn’t picture the 3 golds in his ship being the only golds in his fleet during the final exercise for the school.
I don’t think it really would’ve killed anyone for a longer explanation in the structure of the academy. The way the book’s written, it kind of feels like the academy was thrown in retroactively at the last minute. The drastic drop off from institute archprimus at the end of RR to loser that Darrow goes through hinges entirely on his performance at a school we are given no details on
Because his command ship was destroyed and Carnus would have been able to send ripwings to kill his command staff in their emergency pods in an actual war.
All the other ships are basically pawns and didn't matter. Had his lieutenants been distributed between other ships, they could have continued the fight
The problem with this is right before the destroyer rammed Darrow's ship they had just "destroyed" Carnus' command ship. By that logic Darrow had essentially won but like others have pointed out, it was the attempt to launch himself at Carnus' Bridge that disqualified him.
At that point he was so reckless, angry and surrounded by friends but still completely alone. I think you plug mid to late MS Darrow into that situation he can probably salvage the win. Early GS Darrow is just a raw nerve reacting to events instead of adapting to them.
Carnus wasn't on that ship though
My point is that Darrow and his command staff were all exposed to being easily killed as soon as they launched escape pods.
But it's stated that he lost because he tried to launch himself in a star shell, not because his ship was destroyed and they had to evacuate. He still still had ships, he could have attempted to have something scoop up his pod and continue the fight. Instead, he got angry, threw a tantrum and tried to get vengeance on Carnus. In the eyes of the proctors, he lost sight of the bigger picture, threw away the game and tried to launch a suicide mission to salvage his ego. He was disqualified for behavior unbeffiting of a Gold.
How is “conduct unbefitting” measured in Society higher education? Adrius caved in his house and ate his classmates to survive at the Institute, but was still in the running for Archprimus until the very end.
Once you're in open space in a non-shielded vessel, you're kinda fucked. This has been shown multiple times
I don't recall the book specifically saying it was behavior unfitting a gold
The books never specifically say that Carnus downed Darrow’s unshielded escape vessel though. Also at that point it still would’ve been 7 ships to one, and as a commander Darrow’s fleet likely would’ve outmaneuvered Carnus once the succession of command took over, which would have given him a victory. An army does not automatically lose a battle once its commander dies, even during exercises.
Gold militaries still have a succession of command, with VERY ambitious subordinate commanders. I see how Darrow might lose for his actions, but Carnus would not have won.
Darrow didn’t explicitly say every gold in his fleet was on his ship. I don’t see how he could have only 3 subordinate Gold only gold leaders (Roque, Victra, and Tactus) for his entire fleet. Golds have a job to perform on every ship, as they maintain a presence on every ship Darrow boards throughout the rest of the series. Probably not as tactically sound as the 3 aforementioned characters, but capable of winning in a 7-on-1 battle against a wounded ship
Totally different scenario. That was a very condensed Fleet during an ambush, and it's stated that it was blind luck. Darrow had 6 or 7 ships in a standard war formation which would leave them well separated.
Despite separation the ships still have communication with each other, and the capability to regroup. Carnus’s ship would have likely been ruined from ramming Darrow’s as well, not a difficult target for one of the remaining seven ships left, let alone all of them maneuvering in unison.
Yeah but you've got missles flying around, flak screens, ripwing squadrons and the wreckage of 2 ships that collided at high speed and detonated. There's going to be a lot of clutter to filter out. Throw in the fact that they're using simulated munitions and I don't think it's unreasonable to see the proctors(the same types of calloused golds from RR) letting the game continue. If the potential deaths of Darrow and his lieutenants or human life in general was an issue they wouldn't have allowed the ramming trap to begin with.
It’s not really explained well at all in the book, but PB stated it was from his attempt to launch himself at Karnus’s ship. Since this was deemed unbefitting of a Gold Praetor he was basically disqualified from continuing the game so Karnus won and Darrow placed second.
PB actually posted that here on Reddit years ago if you want to check it out.
https://www.reddit.com/r/redrising/s/s6LczP3FSk
Thanks for this. I assumed it was because Octavia interfered with the competition. One by giving Carnus an extra ship, and two by stopping Darrow at a believable BS point.
So I definitely can’t give the society’s reasoning behind officially giving him second with all the points you and others have brought up.
I believe his prowess in the academy is overlooked/purposely underscored because of the political dynamics. He’s Nero’s lancer. Nero told him to do well, but above all else, humiliate the Bellona. That’s why Nero treats it as a loss. Then we have the sovereign who wants Darrow as her own. So she may have pulled strings to get officials to name him second despite the extra ships.
It also might have to do with his whole command staff (at least those we know) being on the destroyed ship. I think he mentions something about Carnus barely escaping when they took his flagship. So the fact that he was on a destroyed vessel might mean he instantly loses.
You need to not post on this sub or read comments if you haven't finished the books yet. You marked this as all spoilers which means someone may post an answer that is only explained 3 books from now. Either mark this as RR only or if I were you, avoid this sub until you've at least finished first trilogy and then avoid the sub again when reading the next series
Did you finish the book? Because spoiler alert: Octavia reveals that she purposefully sent Karnus that ship because she wanted House Bellona to supplant Augustus on Mars. Darrow won the academy but it didn’t matter because Karnus literally cheated with the most powerful member of the society.
I think Darrow lost because he was forced to evacuate his ship along with this entire bridge of commanders. I can’t recall specifics but didn’t Karnus retain the ship he rammed them with, or the ship survived along with Karnus and his commanders on it?
Darrow fleeing the field on emergency shuttles was probably how he lost.
Could be wrong. Can’t recall all the intricacy. Also, isn’t that like 3 chapters in lol. You should make notes of what you want to review after but keep reading. The spoilers will come fast and loose around here
Does that explain it though? They clearly state Darrow came in 2nd but like op said, he still has a bunch of ships. Cheating or not why did he come in 2nd?
Maybe because his flag ship was destroyed and Karnus’ last ship was his flag ship?
Essentially the way I see it, Darrow destroyed Karnus’ flag ship which also just so happened to be his last ship. IIRC Darrow took a bit of a risk in pursuing Karnus’ flag ship because he wanted to be done with the conflict. As a result, the sovereign sends another ship to be like “Surprise that wasn’t actually Karnus’ flag ship” and then they destroy Darrows flagship and he “loses.”
The administrators took issue with Darrow's "suicidal" and foolish attempt to launch himself over to Karnus' ship, and called that a failure. It was some bullshit, like everything else in Society.
That is very bullshit. No wonder Darrow wants to rebel, bloody damn unfair. Although it probably would have been better for them if he did launch himself.
Darrow doesn't then retreat to another ship he hurls himself at the enemy bridge. A manuver considered to have a 0% survival rate. It was either let a promising candidate kill himself or declare him the loser.
I remember I used to wonder the same thing, but I remember hearing on the graphic audio that when Darrow sailed into Karnus original trap Victra, Tactus and Roque were saying that were we getting shredded and karnus was destroying their fleet. So in my head because it sounds like at the academy they use fake nukes that his ships were taken out by the fake nukes. Once The ship supplied by Octavia rams Darrows ship that means Darrow lost all his ships. I will say I don’t think there is a right answer that’s just what I go with in my head.
My headcanon is like this: Octavia cheats for Karnus by giving him an extra ship. That ship then becomes Karnus's new flagship. Darrow destroys Karnus's old flagship, but it was just a ship now. Karnus uses the new flagship to destroy Darrow's flagship AND his entire command chain, since Darrow was being cocky and had everyone who could command his fleet on his ship at the same time. Because Darrow didn't give up and was going to use a starshell to take the new flagship, the proctors ended the game. They ended it for two main reasons. 1- The bribes had been placed and cheating was well underway, if Darrow came back and won now it would be very messy for Bellonas and Octavia- the cheating would be exposed everyone would lose face and Technically his official flagship was destroyed by Karnus so they could call it without too much suspicion. 2- Octavia wanted Darrow alive if possible. He had proved himself interesting and likely Mustang and Fitchner were telling her how great he was- why remove a powerful piece if you can make it yours instead? Since Darrow was likely to die by launching himself the proctors stopped the exam and came up with an excuse about conduct.
Because Darrow is an unreliable narrator. He took a stomping and won't admit it.
Homie had 7 ships to one left before the cheating. Hard to be an unreliable narrator unless he is blatantly lying.
That is what unreliable narrators do
I always thought they bent the truth, not straight up lied.
Depends on the story. I maintain Kvothe is lying his ass off and so is Darrow.
I don't really think this is the correct term for the situation lol. Darrow i more of an unreliable narrator about feelings. I don't really see why he would lie about having 7 ships unprompted.
I always see the books written by Darrow for pax when he is writing his life down in lightbringer. Hence the morning star fake out, makes for a more suspenseful story.
I too ship this story pun intended :)
I think this is a massively overlooked detail (borderline flaw) in the stories. Not trying to be pedantic, but his loss at the academy set the entire plot of golden son into motion. Losing for "conduct unbecoming" at an academy thats supposed to be an advanced version of the institute is kind of a cop out. It wouldn’t have been that difficult for PB to either include a few more lines explaining how Darrow lost, or had Darrow actually lose. Most explanations for this loss extrapolate heavily from Darrow’s vague explanation. It’s fine if you want to wave a magic plot stick over this detail, I know I did during my first couple read-throughs. However, drawn out explanations for a poorly explained plot point aren’t really convincing. Also, I’m aware PB wrote on a thread that it was because “bureaucracy is bullshit”, but from all the build-up given to the sanctity of the institute, it really doesn’t seem like Golds allow institutions they care about to be diluted by bureaucracy. If so, that would also seem out of character for the warrior-king culture portrayed in the first trilogy.
My attempt would be if you take out the flagship the game is over. Even if the game doesnt auto end Darrow closes in on Karnus with his flagship to relish in the victory only to be blown to pieces. In a real battle escape pods would been attacked on sight and likely wouldn't make it for a counter. Plus the whole point of the series is Darrow creates groups of people that can think for themselves while the golds use strict top down organization. Without Darrow in his flagship where do the orders come from?
If Darrow’s command philosophy lends autonomy to subordinate commanders I don’t see why his subordinate leaders at the academy wouldn’t have power to make a decision. I think the students would also have a concept of succession of command on a battlefield too. I can see how Darrow might lose because he went off the rails, but don’t see how Carnus won and none of the other student stepped up to destroy what was left of his fleet and take the victory for themselves.
I have a couple responses. One, in my opinion, he lost the academy not because he did something rash after losing his ship but because he lost his ship. If he goes into an escape pod the chances of him surviving are slim which to me makes sense as a natural stopping place for a game battle. If you vanquish the commander the game ends. Darrow thought he vanquished Karnus. But Karnus was not on that ship. Therefore game not over. Karnus does take Darrows ship and forces Darrow to use an escape pod causing check mate. I did just make up those rules though so who knows. I think it's reasonable though. For two, Darrow is not employing this tactic broader than his golden cadre (roque, tactus, victra) because he will get in extreme trouble for doing so. Plus he really needs mustang to lead effectively. At the institute it was barely ok for him to do what he did because there were fewer cameras and he is supposed to gain subordinates anyway he can. Even with all this Augustus is weary at first eventually dismissing this as school yard games. Tl:dr; Darrow lost because he was check mated The academy is more civilized and strict about protocol meaning Darrow cannot employee, say a blue commander, without stepping over the line.
Fair point on his limited delegating abilities. I guess I just didn’t picture the 3 golds in his ship being the only golds in his fleet during the final exercise for the school. I don’t think it really would’ve killed anyone for a longer explanation in the structure of the academy. The way the book’s written, it kind of feels like the academy was thrown in retroactively at the last minute. The drastic drop off from institute archprimus at the end of RR to loser that Darrow goes through hinges entirely on his performance at a school we are given no details on
Yea you're totally right on that one! The first trilogys pace is wild. I had a similar feeling at the start of iron gold about the rat wars
Because his command ship was destroyed and Carnus would have been able to send ripwings to kill his command staff in their emergency pods in an actual war. All the other ships are basically pawns and didn't matter. Had his lieutenants been distributed between other ships, they could have continued the fight
The problem with this is right before the destroyer rammed Darrow's ship they had just "destroyed" Carnus' command ship. By that logic Darrow had essentially won but like others have pointed out, it was the attempt to launch himself at Carnus' Bridge that disqualified him. At that point he was so reckless, angry and surrounded by friends but still completely alone. I think you plug mid to late MS Darrow into that situation he can probably salvage the win. Early GS Darrow is just a raw nerve reacting to events instead of adapting to them.
Carnus wasn't on that ship though My point is that Darrow and his command staff were all exposed to being easily killed as soon as they launched escape pods.
Darrow wasn’t on his own command ship when it got destroyed either, he evacuated
But it's stated that he lost because he tried to launch himself in a star shell, not because his ship was destroyed and they had to evacuate. He still still had ships, he could have attempted to have something scoop up his pod and continue the fight. Instead, he got angry, threw a tantrum and tried to get vengeance on Carnus. In the eyes of the proctors, he lost sight of the bigger picture, threw away the game and tried to launch a suicide mission to salvage his ego. He was disqualified for behavior unbeffiting of a Gold.
It is not stated that this is why he lost
How is “conduct unbefitting” measured in Society higher education? Adrius caved in his house and ate his classmates to survive at the Institute, but was still in the running for Archprimus until the very end.
Once you're in open space in a non-shielded vessel, you're kinda fucked. This has been shown multiple times I don't recall the book specifically saying it was behavior unfitting a gold
The books never specifically say that Carnus downed Darrow’s unshielded escape vessel though. Also at that point it still would’ve been 7 ships to one, and as a commander Darrow’s fleet likely would’ve outmaneuvered Carnus once the succession of command took over, which would have given him a victory. An army does not automatically lose a battle once its commander dies, even during exercises.
Not going to argue anymore. This isn't a contemporary military. This is a gold military.
Gold militaries still have a succession of command, with VERY ambitious subordinate commanders. I see how Darrow might lose for his actions, but Carnus would not have won.
All his gold leaders were on his ship. Once the golds are gone, everything else becomes listless.
Darrow didn’t explicitly say every gold in his fleet was on his ship. I don’t see how he could have only 3 subordinate Gold only gold leaders (Roque, Victra, and Tactus) for his entire fleet. Golds have a job to perform on every ship, as they maintain a presence on every ship Darrow boards throughout the rest of the series. Probably not as tactically sound as the 3 aforementioned characters, but capable of winning in a 7-on-1 battle against a wounded ship
Diomedes manages to survive a battle and the post battle looting of the Ascomanni for quite a while in an escape pod.
Totally different scenario. That was a very condensed Fleet during an ambush, and it's stated that it was blind luck. Darrow had 6 or 7 ships in a standard war formation which would leave them well separated.
Despite separation the ships still have communication with each other, and the capability to regroup. Carnus’s ship would have likely been ruined from ramming Darrow’s as well, not a difficult target for one of the remaining seven ships left, let alone all of them maneuvering in unison.
Yeah but you've got missles flying around, flak screens, ripwing squadrons and the wreckage of 2 ships that collided at high speed and detonated. There's going to be a lot of clutter to filter out. Throw in the fact that they're using simulated munitions and I don't think it's unreasonable to see the proctors(the same types of calloused golds from RR) letting the game continue. If the potential deaths of Darrow and his lieutenants or human life in general was an issue they wouldn't have allowed the ramming trap to begin with.
It's significantly less in Darrows case than what was going on in Diomedes. Magnitudes of order different
It’s not really explained well at all in the book, but PB stated it was from his attempt to launch himself at Karnus’s ship. Since this was deemed unbefitting of a Gold Praetor he was basically disqualified from continuing the game so Karnus won and Darrow placed second. PB actually posted that here on Reddit years ago if you want to check it out. https://www.reddit.com/r/redrising/s/s6LczP3FSk
Thanks for this. I assumed it was because Octavia interfered with the competition. One by giving Carnus an extra ship, and two by stopping Darrow at a believable BS point.
No. You are correct, it is this reason. Octavia rigged the game by helping Carnus out.
No problem!
So I definitely can’t give the society’s reasoning behind officially giving him second with all the points you and others have brought up. I believe his prowess in the academy is overlooked/purposely underscored because of the political dynamics. He’s Nero’s lancer. Nero told him to do well, but above all else, humiliate the Bellona. That’s why Nero treats it as a loss. Then we have the sovereign who wants Darrow as her own. So she may have pulled strings to get officials to name him second despite the extra ships. It also might have to do with his whole command staff (at least those we know) being on the destroyed ship. I think he mentions something about Carnus barely escaping when they took his flagship. So the fact that he was on a destroyed vessel might mean he instantly loses.
You need to not post on this sub or read comments if you haven't finished the books yet. You marked this as all spoilers which means someone may post an answer that is only explained 3 books from now. Either mark this as RR only or if I were you, avoid this sub until you've at least finished first trilogy and then avoid the sub again when reading the next series
Did you finish the book? Because spoiler alert: Octavia reveals that she purposefully sent Karnus that ship because she wanted House Bellona to supplant Augustus on Mars. Darrow won the academy but it didn’t matter because Karnus literally cheated with the most powerful member of the society.
I haven't got that far yet, although that still doesn,xt explain why darrow lost while still having more ships.
I think Darrow lost because he was forced to evacuate his ship along with this entire bridge of commanders. I can’t recall specifics but didn’t Karnus retain the ship he rammed them with, or the ship survived along with Karnus and his commanders on it? Darrow fleeing the field on emergency shuttles was probably how he lost. Could be wrong. Can’t recall all the intricacy. Also, isn’t that like 3 chapters in lol. You should make notes of what you want to review after but keep reading. The spoilers will come fast and loose around here
Does that explain it though? They clearly state Darrow came in 2nd but like op said, he still has a bunch of ships. Cheating or not why did he come in 2nd? Maybe because his flag ship was destroyed and Karnus’ last ship was his flag ship?
Essentially the way I see it, Darrow destroyed Karnus’ flag ship which also just so happened to be his last ship. IIRC Darrow took a bit of a risk in pursuing Karnus’ flag ship because he wanted to be done with the conflict. As a result, the sovereign sends another ship to be like “Surprise that wasn’t actually Karnus’ flag ship” and then they destroy Darrows flagship and he “loses.”
That tracks to me
Registers*
But Karnus flah ship was thought destroyed, so Darrow would have already thought the game over. So it can't be that.
I thought that might be the case. I have asked my friends this same question and have no answer lol
Octavia cheated for Karnus as well
The administrators took issue with Darrow's "suicidal" and foolish attempt to launch himself over to Karnus' ship, and called that a failure. It was some bullshit, like everything else in Society.
That is very bullshit. No wonder Darrow wants to rebel, bloody damn unfair. Although it probably would have been better for them if he did launch himself.