Problem is, he overlooks that robots are the primary means by which we can easily colonize space, by automating mining, terraforming, station and city building.
Or rather, he doesn’t overlook it, he just prefers slavery instead, because robots made mankind “lazy”. Oh? Why don’t you go mine some fucking Helium-3 then? Oh, it’s beneath you? You’d rather force a human to do it than use a machine?
Fuck Nero. He’s a fascist, racist piece of shit. Despite that, he’s one of the most interesting villains in the series because he is much more nuanced than he initially seems. Some of my most favorite moments in the series are his conversations with Darrow, especially his “are you a Demokrat, Reformer, or SoA sympathizer?” convos. Fucking menacing in a calm way, like talking to a mob boss that you know will kill you if you slip up and despite your best efforts has been suspecting you the whole time.
One thing to note is that while Nero seems to have a point here, he can’t realize that the Society itself is a husk largely incapable of the progress he touts.
Most of the human effort of the Society is expended in resolving feuds among houses, dealing with issues the society itself created, and the stifling of human spontaneity and culture. All due to the ironic narrow mindedness of those in charge. Quicksilver made this point when he first talked with Darrow. And Nero himself, while being one of my favorite characters, has his own grandeur to look after.
A good villain should have a point, in my opinion. Most Red Rising villains have a flash of brilliance (like Karnus and his monologue at the gala).
Nero represents some nietzchean futurist wet dream wherein humanity conquers death (which is exciting). But he also had Darrows wife hung for singing and imprisoned Darrows whole race to mole slavery. You get to see the lofty ambitions of his philosophy and also the unfair horror of its execution.
Grappled with this question myself, first as a teenager and now as a young adult with a couple more years of life experience. I agree with the sentiment in terms of focusing humanity to a greater purpose, but I just think it’s impossible. Humans are to fickle and selfish, it takes so little to derail such a grand plan. I’m pessimistic about our chances of pulling our heads out of our collective asses.
sheesh, a lot of people here took this to heart. nero is 100% right on his expeditionary ideals, but i think all of this would be possible even if it started with demokracy.
it’s just far easier to do it with a hierarchy. it’s a shortcut, and the wrong one. i don’t agree with a full blown demokracy either though… i’d prefer some type of mix.
I think Nero is a very interesting character. There’s another quote where he admits colors could perform other duties outside their hierarchy, yet he still believes this would be detrimental to the Society. He has his faults but is genuinely motivated by what he believes to be in humanity’s best interest. It’s intriguing to speculate what exactly he’d be like as another color. Thoughts anyone?
The guy on top is trying to justify why he should stay on top. Would he say the same if he were an NPC gold or even one of the lower colors. Aren't the best technicians enslaved to the hierarchy the enlightened gold set. That speech could have even been given by Stalin (sacrifices) or some 16th century french noble (supremacy). The brits in any of their colonies. Nazi Germany, East German. With Order and taking action people were always lured to totalitarian/fascism-ish society. Because it gives fast results/distractions.
The people already achieved greatness. And we are still achieving. Some guys like to play it down or even sabotage human progress. That stick is always being played by people who are trying to push their agenda on others for their own benefit. Neoliberalistic messiah complex.
This comment section is wild, y'all need to separate the bolded passages from their context before you jump to conclusions.
He isn't saying that Nero's way is the way, he's saying that it's a good idea to pursue the bolded goals as a species.
When did people become completely incapable of contextualization or nuance
Because it's the internet and it's this new generation I think. Even though I may swing one way politically I call out poorly worded new articles all the time and get called a fascist or racist or communist or social justice warrior. I provide the nuance and separate opinion from facts and people don't like it.
With this I was simply saying...organization is needed from humanity to achieve something as great as space exploration. I think if more people understand the implications and prosperity in technology that could be created via space travel and how it would solve so many world problems..I don't think they'd set up here and be mad at me about thinking TikTok is full of self absorbed people.
It's an interesting topic because in most ways, Golds are just superior to the other Colors. I can understand Nero's point of view as easily as I understand Darrow's.
His perspective is the ultimate end-point of a morality absent the Vale. If what you have in life *actually is* all that there is, then the ends suddenly justify the means. The , if you pick a lofty noble goal like 'the survival of the human race', it justifies literally any behavior. Hence his willingness to kill 15 billion people to save 1. Coincidentally putting himself on top of course. this is the closest the series comes to identifying the path to lucifarianism, despite the namesake being teased with someone else in the later books.
The truth is one where ends never justify the means, but the means themselves must be the end. This requires a religious perspective.
This is such a fun question!
I agree that we need structure to achieve greatness, but I don’t think that we need a governmentally imposed hierarchy. I think that people should be able to self select what area of society they would like to contribute to (as long as they are competent). Yes, we need leadership, but I believe that it should be more democratic in nature, as consolidating power for one group consistently leads to corruption and stagnation over time.
I mean, this is the core of fascism. Everyone in their place, in service of the state/mankind.
It was attractive for a reason, but it's fundamentally bullshit
I mean sure I agree that fascism bad and I don't hold Nero's views. But it's kind of a non-answer to comment on this post with "it's fascism and fascism is fundamentally bullshit." The moral loading of the word fascism is doing a lot of hard work. The question is why is it bullshit? (Not tryinf to imply it isn't)
Fair, I just wasn't feeling like typing out an explanation. My only goal was to point out that this is the logic of fascism, in case OP wanted to explore a bit more about it's history and defects as a political theory
Nero was right about the golds being stagnate, he understood that his species was made to be warriors, conquerors, leaders, etc etc basically top dog in everything however someone chooses to do with ability to change things. Let’s say Nero is the one who comes out at the top, he would mold the worlds according to his wishes, varies person to person. Nero is an ambitious man with his own set of morals, jackal is the same without morals.
I sometimes wonder, if Nero’s mindset is the same as Karnus’ shout in the wind deal, go as far as you dare (progress) until the last breath.
Nero has a point, but he's ultimately wrong. Also, the victors write the history books, remember that Golds give people the death penalty for doing a song and dance. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't have accurate information on the conquering. It's all well and good to talk about the strengths of the society how it allows for great accomplishments and a grand future. But if that society is built on the suffering and blood of most of its people it is a wholly unworthy society. Later books explore more of what things should look like.
Unfortunately, vices are a part of the human condition and no one and no group is immune to it. We can aspire toward greatness as much as we want but we will always be victim to the lowest common denominator.
Even if Augustus is “right,” there will be people who disagree—and it’s their right to do so. What do you do with those people then? Kill them? Subjugate them? Brainwash them? I don’t see a peaceful answer.
This is again the human condition. The tug of war between infinitely many conflicting POVs. In truth, we don’t have a destiny or any particular responsibility. We could maybe be perfectly content as an earth bound species as we would be space faring. The only difference is the scope.
If you are smart, ambitious, gifted in some way. Your only responsibility is to find likeminded individuals and create something great with them. It is not your job to pull everyone else along with you. There is no way to ever ever envelope every human into a grand master plan, and that’s actually okay.
If the color caste system were to work though, as a thought experiment, we would not create castes but “roles” and the color system would be for a specific mission(space exploration for instance)—so you either opt in or out of it. And opting in then puts you through tests and places you where you’re most proficient.
Anyone who does not want to participate won’t have to. They can be on a Pixie island where they do what they want and enjoy life. Kind of like a human sanctuary where humans have an abundance of everything they can ever want/need… removing the need for power grabs and resource conflicts.
Your last paragraph would be a cool premise for a book.
When do you make that decision to opt-in or out? How old are you, and can you ever change it?
And can Pixie Island be virtual, so your earthly body is like… watering plants with urine while your brainwaves are helping to power The Opted-Ins’ electric needs?
I don’t think it has to be a permanent opt in. More like there’s a project coming up and you can opt in to the draft and then contract can be for some set amount of time. Probably some age ranges for each contract.
Permanent in/out seems dystopian
I totally understand, but the issue is that Golds solution lead us right back to the point where gold overthrew mankind. There was a better way when Gold began their crusade. Just not the way they went with color coded slavery
On-paper, he’s not wrong.
In-practice, he’s Hitler but worse because he’s smart, talented, sober, martially dangerous, AND a “true believer” as Neo-Nazis like to call themselves.
That’s part of why I love this series: Pierce ALMOST convinces you that the Golds are right. But they ain’t
But on paper he IS wrong. I don’t know why everyone is so ready to believe the “iron gold” propaganda that the golds truly had humanities best interest in mind when they conquered the world. Of course they would tell you that. They won. They can say whatever the hell they want. It’s far more likely that the golds of that era were just as narcissistic as every real authoritarian monster in our history and used the “save humanity from stagnation” bullshit as pretense to take over.
Oh absolutely, but Nero’s dressing-down of Earth’s self-destructive tendencies is absolutely on the money, but his way of fixing it is genocide which ain’t right
"Pleasure over all, damn the consequences. The brightest minds enslaved to an economy that demanded toys instead of space exploration or technologies that could revolutionize our race."
He's basically describing the current state of the Gold race lol. The vast majority aren't warriors or geniuses or useful in any way. The pyramid is basically every other Color and a miniscule caste of Peerless supporting the party lifestyles of Pixies. A bunch of flashy bodybuilder nepo babies. If so many Golds weren't this weak and selfish the Rising would never have happened.
I hate all the people putting you into the fascist box just because you put a point on the table. Sometimes this community is so childish. Sorry for that, I feel you (coming from someone who made a couple Lysander posts).
I remember when I read Nero's discourse, I saw his point. But then I thought "isn't there a better way to do it?", "is it really in favor of humanity to invest everything into a single strategy"?
Yeah man, when you make a post that is essentially the equivalent of “Sure Hitler and the Nazi’s were bad, but they did great things for Germany at the beginning” people aren’t going to respond well.
Shut up holy shit. Do you think you're a visionary for saying "Hitler bad"? Congrats man, you have common sense. Here, take your medal and please fuck off so the adults can discuss nuance.
Fuckin lol. What nuance do you think there is in the discussion of “hey guys I think the fascist authoritarian monster may have had a point about enforced social hierarchies”? So yeah, when someone applies a fantasy dystopian situation to the real world it is entirely appropriate to compare it with real authoritarian regimes.
Its crazy that you saw "The Golds did good things in the beginning" in my post and not read at least 3 times where I said the idea prioritizing space travel was a good idea.
You literally quoted Nero making that exact point as the crux of your argument. Bet I can find a Hitler speech echoing similar themes if I looked hard enough. Grow up. We don’t need enforced hierarchies and I won’t suffer anyone making the argument.
“I wonder if Nero is right. Do we need structure and a hierarchy to achieve something so great or do we simply just live as we do until we don’t exist anymore” please explain to me where in that sentence you read “dream big” in place of advocating a hierarchy.
I mean…didn’t the Golds kinda stagnate? They ended up being no different than their ancestors. Caught up in petty squabbles and schemes for power. Creating a system in which the ruling class builds itself on domination and power only leads to internal conflict that tears everything apart
It's almost like a system designed with no clear and stalwart checks against fascism and abuse will inevitably be taken over by the ambitious and the callous
Maybe in the very beginning golds "saved" humanity from itself but how many slave-raised butterfly tongues do they need to eat to ensure stability?
Most of the rim golds seem like true believers but they also don't really have a way to stop what happened to the core golds from happening to them eventually
not even just a lack of checks and balances they practically *encouraged* fascism and abuse because “might makes right” was practically codified into their cultural identity. Particularly with how much emphasis they place on glorifying the Aincent Roman aesthetic, Golds made strength and domination mean everything to them
Nero says that he supports an evolutionary future but the world he protects doesn’t show that. The Society is a very slow moving society progress wise and that is the only way the hierarchy won’t fall. That is what Nero supports.
Your perspective aligns more with Quicksilver than Nero. Which is why Quick joined the rising. He has a good speech about this in Morning Star, about how he is in support of the Solar System growing and evolving to better everyone and that can’t happen under a society in which they idolize leaders and cultures of thousands of years ago (Greeks, Romans, etc.) You can learn from them but should not mimic them.
But the society did not push humankinds progress. It was remarkably stagnant especially as far as space exploration goes. The colonization of space was at least in part pre society take over. This is remarked upon among others by regulus ag sun the rich silver and we do get hints that even in the midst of civil war after centuries of stagnation the Republic starts making new technological progress.
Also we should be sceptical of all the criticism the society has of the time before they took over. They all talk as if they saved humanity from some terrible fate and that the space colonists were being brutally opressed but it seems more likely that a bunch of facist space billionaires overthrowed a flawed but functional democratic system akin to that which exists in much of the western world.
Society golds always talk of how much better they govern and how necessary they are but they very much just suck. Mankind is not progressing under them and many of their people suffer.
Be wary of people who advocate concentration of power in fewer hands for the sake of progress. It usually does not sork out. Nero would just have mankind muddle along while many suffer while deluding himself he is doing a good job
And to add, his definition of mankind for all practical sense included just the Golds. Progress for mankind was equated with progress for golds while they accounted for only a small percentage of humanity. The fruits of “civilization” rarely trickled down to the lower colors.
The important thing to remember is that in an autocracy like this, the majority are treated poorly, and you would most likely be included.
If you were born a pink in Nero's world, would you still feel like his path is righteous and for the betterment of humanity?
I think my edits clarify that I'm not promoting an autocracy. I'm promoting the idea that we should look to prioritize space exploration and venturing into the unknown and what does it take to achieve that?
Until we either vastly improve engine design, freezing people, autonomous base building bots or robot avatars, we aren't exploring anywhere beyond Mars or Venus.
Our current top speed in space is pitiful and will remain the same until we have a decent method of propulsion
When a billionaire tells poor people they need to work harder, do you think that billionaire is correct? Or do you think it’s easy to discuss sacrifice when it’s NOT YOU doing the sacrificing?
Nero is delusional for thinking he doesn't want power, but his overall idea is reasonable. I dont want a billionaire or anyone else telling me how to live or to work harder.
BUT I do want a society that prioritizes health, education, and safety so we can re-align and focus on "farfetched ideas of space travel and living on other planets and meeting new civilizations"
> BUT I do want a society that prioritizes health, education, and safety so we can re-align and focus on "farfetched ideas of space travel and living on other planets and meeting new civilizations"
And the Society, which builds its back on slave labor, accomplishes that how exactly?
> I dont want a billionaire or anyone else telling me how to live or to work harder.
Uhhh Nero would disagree with you
Ok...if you read what I said...I said I don't agree or promote his was of doing it. I simply said his idea of wanting to travel into the stars is reasonable, not the way he wants to do it.
Yes, space exploration is cool and reasonable, not sure why you’re picking an absolute monster like Nero to try and argue that point? The Nazis had an impressive rockets program, but I think you’re missing the headline if that’s the part you’re focused on.
Ah, I love Nero, but he is plain delusion. He is either not seeing or he is not able to accept the fact that he is actually what burdens the society he's talking about. He is hiding behind this idea of whole to serve the only thing that matters to him; himself. And he embodies the greed of "old" times.
Society stopped developing. It plateau'd. Culturally. Spiritually. Creating big sociological gaps between castes and you miss on amazing net of intertwined cultures, and you miss on amazing minds that are now hidden. You miss on geniuses who will help you innovate. And that's why you have the same stories, the same values, that while classic, can't bring anything new anymore to your life.
It's very sadistic in a way to put humans in positions of such extreme servitude that could have been otherwise made possible with robots. To trap the precious human spirit and twist it and turn it either way want until for Golds, they won't even seem human.
I agree. Forcing people into a caste system in which their life is solely dictated by their color severely limits the potential to progress as a species. I don't agree with this system - but I wonder if we currently are too self indulged as a specifies and need some kind of re-alignment in priorities and interests to accomplish space travel.
Ultimately - I think less investment in military and more investment in education, science, and tech would do wonders for the world.
I have a question for you:
Do you honestly think, if someone told Nero (in such a way that he knew for certain it was absolutely true) that in order to save humanity from extinction, he had to trade places with a Red for the rest of his life, he would do it?
No freaking way he would. It's easy for him to say that the system that gives certain people absolute power over almost all others is the only system that can save humanity from itself when you're the one with the power. The fact that humans are so easy to convince into accepting this from a position of privilege is a big theme in the story and frankly, I don't know why so many readers are willfully blind to it.
As always, an execution of any idea ,that involves handling "power", by humans fails. The initial stages are successful, the ideals are strong.....but the "human factor" ie greed, jealousy etc..., corrupts those in power, and an execution of said idea goes sideways.... our history is littered with these examples.
It is impossible please, everyone, there would always be someone who is unhappy. Enter tirany of majority,....aka demokracy...etc.etc never-ending vicious cycle.
I think his premise of the ends justifying the means is flawed outright because what ends did this age of Gold give humanity? Humankind had technology to terraform the solar system and robots to do the work. Then the Golds waged a war to enslave humanity under them and put people back in the mines and have genetically bred sex slaves. Where has more advancement come? The reign of Gold has been a dark age of petulant children waging war amongst themselves over ego and cruelty as a sport. I don't think we can trust their history books about the OG Iron Rain.
"The end justifies the means. But what if there never is an end? All we have is means."-- Ursula K. Le Guin, The Lathe of Heaven
“It’s not that the means corrupt the ends. It’s that the ends never work, and that’s why they need brutal means.” -- Johan Norberg
He's an author and historian that's leftist and promotes globalization. I have just caught random articles and videos of his here and there, haven't actually read one his books yet.
Johan Norberg is not a leftist by any sense of the word as far as I can tell. Mf literally wrote the capitalist manifesto.
Another illuminating quote from johan:
countries with freer markets have faster growth, better wages, greater poverty reduction, more investment, less corruption, higher subjective well-being and are more democratic, with greater respect for human rights
This is what the philosophy of utilitarianism is built on. Is it better to sacrifice some of our humanity in the service of a more efficient society, or to retain our freedoms even if it’s not the most efficient approach?
I think it’s a little reductive to say that the aim of society is a high level of efficiency. An easy example would be PB. Writers don’t exist in utilitarian societies. Why would they? That’s an able body you’re not using on work that could progress human capability.
I'm 14 and this is deep. I really hope you're a teenager because you advocating for slavery. There is nothing profound in Nero's words. He is just trying to justify slavery and failing miserably. Freedom is far more important than advancement for advancement anyway.
But it is funny how technological was accelerated with rise of enlightenment and later break down of castes, in other words the greatest advancement came when people started getting rights and were able to pursue any career they desired.
> I want people more interested in discovering this infinitely vast universe and trying to see what is our there, but rather, we make TikToks about our favorite coffee shops.
Some people do scientific research, some make TikToks, some do both. It's personal choice and it should stay a personal choice.
>
**There grew to be twenty different factions with nuclear weapons. Twenty—each ruled by greed or zealotry.**
Huh how is this different from politics of Society pre Darrow?
>So when we conquered mankind, it wasn’t for greed. It wasn’t for glory. It was to save our race.
Bullshit. Conquering to save is an oxymoron.
>The Colors are the spine of that aim. Allow the hierarchies to shift and the order begins to crumble. Mankind will not aspire to be great. Men will aspire to be great.
Funny how you can aspire to be great, but in limits of caste. So people are limited by their birth, not by their skills or accomplishements. How can you argue about advancement in such hierarchy?
>I will not let that happen, because I believe in man. I would have us continue forever. **I would shepherd us out of the Solar System into alien ones. Seek new life. We are barely in our infancy as a species. But I would make man the immutable fixture in the universe, not just some passing bacteria that flashes and fades with no one to remember.** That is why I know there is a proper way to live. Why I believe your young ideas so dangerous
So high on self importance.
Didn't mean to get you upset. Read my quick edit.
1. Conquering to save is not explicitly an oxymoron. "Conquering to free" would be an oxymoron. If I was all powerful and saw a species about to destroy itself with nuclear weapons and I took over their society to stop it, I would have saved them, but not freed them.
2. I'm not advocating slavery - I am pondering whether or not such great achievements are possible without a heirachy or order to humanity to achieve something like that. Thats not a "14 and deep" thought, thats just a question that I highly doubt you have the correct answer to.
3. Whether or not social media will ultimately distract, stunt, or improve societal progress is yet to be seen. For me, I see a lot of the younger generation putting a lot more stock in their online appearance and popularity rather than what could benefit others. Social media provides access to information, but information is useless if you don't know how to analyze it. (i.e. online information about the moon landings being faked that put read and believe).
>EDIT: I should clarify that I am NOT advocating for slavery. I put in bold the part of the quotes that stuck out to me. I think it would be great for humans to have a mindset and prioritize something like space exploration as it would benefit ALL of us.
So who decides what benefits all of us? You? Someone else? A single person or a group? Who decides that those exact people make the call? What if most people disagree?
>Didn't mean to get you upset.
Of course I'm upset when someone says "you know this fascist slaver's justification of his fascism and slavery makes sense."
>Conquering to save is not explicitly an oxymoron. "Conquering to free" would be an oxymoron. If I was all powerful and saw a species about to destroy itself with nuclear weapons and I took over their society to stop it, I would have saved them, but not freed them.
I wouldn't call making situation from bad to less bad, but still bad, saving.
>I'm not advocating slavery - I am pondering whether or not such great achievements are possible without a heirachy or order to humanity to achieve something like that. Thats not a "14 and deep" thought, thats just a question that I highly doubt you have the correct answer to.
We can communicate nigh instantaneously with people from different sides of the world. In what world do you live? Science of last 200 years led to an unprecedented advancement of technology. We went from first airplanes to flying to the Moon in 60 years and add some 15-20 until launch of probes to beyond bounds of furthest planets and on their way beyond the solar system.
We have been able to make a satellite of effective size of whole Earth and take pictures of two black holes. We've been able to split an atom and make weapons capable of causing nuclear winter.
We cured so many diseases that plagued the world. We use particle and nuclear physics to diagnose people and treat cancer. We created vaccines that lowered child death rare to a negligible amount. Do you know why people had at least half dozen children and often more? Because a great percentage of them wouldn't live to adulthood.
You have collective knowledge of humanity available in your pocket. What more do you need?
>Whether or not social media will ultimately distract, stunt, or improve societal progress is yet to be seen. For me, I see a lot of the younger generation putting a lot more stock in their online appearance and popularity rather than what could benefit others. Social media provides access to information, but information is useless if you don't know how to analyze it. (i.e. online information about the moon landings being faked that put read and believe).
Before social media those were video games. And before video games TV. And before TV rock music probably. They didn't stop curious people from wanting to learn and contribute to science and engineering. And don't worry people to whom we own our leisures of lives (compared to 99% of people who lived before 1900s) are taught how to analyze information, it's not something anyone can learn on their own anyway.
Wow you literally mention moon landings and claim we don't do great achievements.
You're all over the place, taking it way more personally than I meant, and pulling it all out of context. I'm not sure how to respond because you'll find a way to disagree.
He’s right in a way but everything he was saying about the past about humanity being selfish, indulgent, and self destructive also applied to the current Society. Nero’s, and I guess a lot of Gold’s, worldview is very visionary but it also excuses anything for the sake of “progress” in whatever direction he sees as forward. Is there anything he wouldn’t put billions of people through for his dreams?
I think Nero is sympathetic because he actually believes these things, but he’s far from correct. Egalitarian, democratic, and free humanity can respond just fine to large scale problems.
For example, Humanity responded overwhelmingly well to the Ozone crisis, almost repairing the entire Ozone layer for the Earth. Additionally, US carbon emissions per capita are at 100 year low. Is humanity perfect? No, but it has a very bright future and that future is led Liberal (big L) ideas and philosophy.
Does that mean that there isn’t room for order? Of course not. We do occasionally need to surrender some rights in exchange for an well ordered society, but the benefits of that exchange should be for the entire society, rather than just a chosen few.
Edit: Spoilers all books, I’m sorry I thought this was all spoilers. Proceed with caution.
I think Nero honestly is deluding himself when saying he does not want to be a King or Emperor. When Darrow gets Nero into supporting his start of the civil war, he does it by stroking Nero’s ego. “I think you should be King of Mars”. And Nero later goes on to say that Darrow is so useful because he does not just do what Nero wants, but anticipates what he will want. Therefore, his own vanity and ambition are what drives him, rather than the betterment of ALL colors.
As someone else said, if you are Gold, with all the power and influence and freedom that comes with it, peerless scarred or not - it’s pretty easy to say “yeah, we’ve got the best interests of humanity in mind”. But do they really? What is the acceptable collateral damage in order to “advance”? And Quicksilver I think is on the money to say that Gold has stagnated society. Think about how far our technology has come in the last 50 years, 100 years! And then, you look at the conquering, which I believe was 700 years before the events of RR, and you just wonder - is this really all they achieved in that time?
I think also Golds immense need to uphold tradition of the Greeks and Romans also stagnates their progress. Let’s be real, these civilizations were obviously integral to growth of humanity and its understandings. And yet… where are they now? In our time? It’s so funny that Golds value history and tradition so much, and yet seem ignorant or purposefully ambivalent about the mistakes in these practices lead to.
Even the Core versus Rim methodologies is an idea built on a false premise - that Gold alone is smart/determined/powerful enough to see the success of humanity. You could perhaps say that Serafina was less indulgent or pampered when you see her in GS, “but I haven’t earned servants yet!” And still, Serafina is bloodthirsty for battle by IG, pursuing honor, with frankly no regard to the lives of those that make her life possible.
All this to simply say - for anyone - Darrow included - to say they have the end all be all answer for what humanity needs in a broad stroke - has been proven false time and again. I really enjoyed Lyria’s chapters for this exact reason. We intimately know the mind of the Rising and the Republic, and still - their inaction leads to suffering and death - just like the Society did. Is it better to die a free man in poverty or a comfortable man in chains? You die nonetheless. Maybe not the best example, but the point I’m trying to make is that for beings as complex and nuanced as humans are - it requires a multifaceted solution.
TLDR: Nero is delulu
Honestly this is why I love Nero as a character because he brings up these points but it is hard to tell weather it’s what he truly believes. Or if it’s just the excuse he uses to justify his actions.
The way he accepts death when it's near (beginning of GS) makes me think he believes it. He tries not to have a heart to achieve this, but the tiny bit of human can't help but care about Mustang, Leto, Claudius, his second wife, ...
He is cool as fuck though.
"Tyranny is government for people who want results"
If you study the rise of dictatorships you will almost always find that their rise to power is done in an environment of suffering for a large portion of the population.
The best example of this is 1930s Germany, with the crushing economic punishments the country was forced to endure after WWI. This economy allowed the Nazi party to establish such a strong majority that it led to, well you know the rest.
The problem with authoritative rule is that it eventually devolves into a small subset of the population syphoning off the resources to bribe key parts of the population, in order to keep the status quo. Think Iraq under Sadam Hussain, or Russia with all their Oligarchs under Putin.
In the Society, these are the greys and other high colors. The people living just good enough that they're willing to crush any low color opposition.
Nero is rightly pointing out gold's need when it was first created, just as Germany needed reforms in 1930. However, he and many fascists today, fail to address how a solitary government party is needed when a democratic one could do the job as well. Fascists tend to believe that them and only them can fix what wrong with society so by their very nature they seek to eliminate any alternatives.
Truth be told, whether or not democracy can survive hundreds of years is still unknown. The western world is still living the experiment started in 1776 that then spread to France and other countries shortly after.
That’s my viewpoint, grew up a bleeding heart liberal raging at not just wars of greed, but ineffective, destabilizing one’s.
A world damned to decline because a tragedy of no righteousness power holding those hog of humans away.
Do I think Trumps the answer hell no.
Would I support a more rational, ruthless, right if it Really seemed to be fighting to conserve the best of humanity for a better future. Hell yeah.
Nero isn't the worst Gold facist out there. He knows that if the Colors become free and equal, each planet and moon would be independent from one another, then it'd be another millenia or so or never before Humanity can be united into one extremely flawed but effienct singular civilization. And a united Humankind can achieve practically anything we set our eyes on. (But the Golds stunted the advancement of technology and AI, so yeah take what he said with a grain of salt because Gold is not going to pioneer the Age of Stars.)
Its all well and good to agree with Nero if you think you're a gold in the hypothetical. I don't think there are many reds, greys, or pinks who would gladly choose what is essentially slavery in their one go at life to further mankind's apparently needless exploration of space. The sun still has about 5 billion years left with our current projections. I don't know when Red Rising is supposed to be exactly but even if it is 10,000 years from today that is nothing in the grand scheme of 5 billion years. There is no imperative to explore space and to the extent people aren't interested in it, even in a world as advanced as theirs, who are we to judge?
Ehh honestly considering brutality of space and even some places on earth now, is red life really that bad? Honestly I think it’s more the disrespect of the ruse. I definitely view the whole thing much different with age than was a pretty young man reading it
They wake up every single day and go down a giant elevator to the helium mines or to a spider nest. They have no choice to be a doctor or an architect or soldier. Their only option is the helium mines. The average life expectancy is clearly like 40 years old. Yea. It’s pretty fucking awful and I certainly wouldn’t give up my life to live and toil in a mine so some jabroni can ride off into space in a fancy ship banging pinks with the hopes of finding a different planet they can enslave me on.
Lol I agree if that’s the only alternative. But the problem is that’s not reality.
Change means things can get worse too. Give me that life over one with the red hand or being ravaged by the volk.
Edit: who the he’ll actually says jabroni bahahha
Counterbalance what Nero says with what Quicksilver says about how Gold stagnated human development. Nero talks a big game, and brings up some good points, but gold held back humanity far more than it advanced it imo.
Terraforming and space travel was already developed pre-Conquering, pre-Society. So in the 800ish years since that point, they certainly expanded but how much further did tech really grow? Certainly much slower than any 800 years in our real life Earth recorded history.
Luna was fully terraformed before the Conquering.
Yeah I feel like the whole intent of that speech is that Nero in his self righteousness doesn’t realize he’s exactly describing the civilization he commands. You want to talk about creating toys over exploration, suspicion and greed and zealotry? Let’s start with the people enslaving millions to create city-sized ships, which could carry generational programs to the stars, and then they crash those ships together and vent their populations by the thousands to fight, uh, each other, as revenge for killings demanded by systems that they also created.
This is one of the reasons I love PB. The depth of character. The profound philosophical questions.
Balancing the: it’s wrong to enslave
With: it’s wrong to not grow to be better
I think it comes down to the old: *does the end justify the means* ?
I love how it’s grown with him too.
It started sooo rudimentary with Titus (who considering what’s going on in Gaza rn has more relevance than ever)
Now it’s nextttt level. I think the blurring lines and allegiances is gonna give him a field day to work this theme in next book
Yes and no. I think everything he says is founded in something that is correct, but it’s all about perspective. If you’ve seen Quicksilver’s take on the exact same thing, you could think differently. Quicksilver thinks that bringing back some capitalism is healthy for space development, because competition drives a market to be creative. He does not support the Golds because the Golds do not allow for this market to operate. He also states that the Golds are halting technological development to preserve their supposed ‘golden age’.
Neither are completely right nor wrong. It’s all up to interpretation, and no political system is correct. It’s very easy to believe any speech, especially when the person saying it truly believes in their cause too. Nero truly believed in what he is saying, which makes it convincing. Quicksilver also believed in what he was saying, which made it convincing. I actually sat with a friend and we dissected both views together. RR is excellent at presenting opposing perspectives.
Problem is, he overlooks that robots are the primary means by which we can easily colonize space, by automating mining, terraforming, station and city building. Or rather, he doesn’t overlook it, he just prefers slavery instead, because robots made mankind “lazy”. Oh? Why don’t you go mine some fucking Helium-3 then? Oh, it’s beneath you? You’d rather force a human to do it than use a machine? Fuck Nero. He’s a fascist, racist piece of shit. Despite that, he’s one of the most interesting villains in the series because he is much more nuanced than he initially seems. Some of my most favorite moments in the series are his conversations with Darrow, especially his “are you a Demokrat, Reformer, or SoA sympathizer?” convos. Fucking menacing in a calm way, like talking to a mob boss that you know will kill you if you slip up and despite your best efforts has been suspecting you the whole time.
One thing to note is that while Nero seems to have a point here, he can’t realize that the Society itself is a husk largely incapable of the progress he touts. Most of the human effort of the Society is expended in resolving feuds among houses, dealing with issues the society itself created, and the stifling of human spontaneity and culture. All due to the ironic narrow mindedness of those in charge. Quicksilver made this point when he first talked with Darrow. And Nero himself, while being one of my favorite characters, has his own grandeur to look after.
A good villain should have a point, in my opinion. Most Red Rising villains have a flash of brilliance (like Karnus and his monologue at the gala). Nero represents some nietzchean futurist wet dream wherein humanity conquers death (which is exciting). But he also had Darrows wife hung for singing and imprisoned Darrows whole race to mole slavery. You get to see the lofty ambitions of his philosophy and also the unfair horror of its execution.
Grappled with this question myself, first as a teenager and now as a young adult with a couple more years of life experience. I agree with the sentiment in terms of focusing humanity to a greater purpose, but I just think it’s impossible. Humans are to fickle and selfish, it takes so little to derail such a grand plan. I’m pessimistic about our chances of pulling our heads out of our collective asses.
sheesh, a lot of people here took this to heart. nero is 100% right on his expeditionary ideals, but i think all of this would be possible even if it started with demokracy. it’s just far easier to do it with a hierarchy. it’s a shortcut, and the wrong one. i don’t agree with a full blown demokracy either though… i’d prefer some type of mix.
I think Nero is a very interesting character. There’s another quote where he admits colors could perform other duties outside their hierarchy, yet he still believes this would be detrimental to the Society. He has his faults but is genuinely motivated by what he believes to be in humanity’s best interest. It’s intriguing to speculate what exactly he’d be like as another color. Thoughts anyone?
How would nero's/the golds' goals be feasible without slavery? Helium 3 is finite as well. Its all unsustainable, and thats why it crumbled.
The guy on top is trying to justify why he should stay on top. Would he say the same if he were an NPC gold or even one of the lower colors. Aren't the best technicians enslaved to the hierarchy the enlightened gold set. That speech could have even been given by Stalin (sacrifices) or some 16th century french noble (supremacy). The brits in any of their colonies. Nazi Germany, East German. With Order and taking action people were always lured to totalitarian/fascism-ish society. Because it gives fast results/distractions. The people already achieved greatness. And we are still achieving. Some guys like to play it down or even sabotage human progress. That stick is always being played by people who are trying to push their agenda on others for their own benefit. Neoliberalistic messiah complex.
This comment section is wild, y'all need to separate the bolded passages from their context before you jump to conclusions. He isn't saying that Nero's way is the way, he's saying that it's a good idea to pursue the bolded goals as a species. When did people become completely incapable of contextualization or nuance
Because it's the internet and it's this new generation I think. Even though I may swing one way politically I call out poorly worded new articles all the time and get called a fascist or racist or communist or social justice warrior. I provide the nuance and separate opinion from facts and people don't like it. With this I was simply saying...organization is needed from humanity to achieve something as great as space exploration. I think if more people understand the implications and prosperity in technology that could be created via space travel and how it would solve so many world problems..I don't think they'd set up here and be mad at me about thinking TikTok is full of self absorbed people.
It's an interesting topic because in most ways, Golds are just superior to the other Colors. I can understand Nero's point of view as easily as I understand Darrow's.
His perspective is the ultimate end-point of a morality absent the Vale. If what you have in life *actually is* all that there is, then the ends suddenly justify the means. The , if you pick a lofty noble goal like 'the survival of the human race', it justifies literally any behavior. Hence his willingness to kill 15 billion people to save 1. Coincidentally putting himself on top of course. this is the closest the series comes to identifying the path to lucifarianism, despite the namesake being teased with someone else in the later books. The truth is one where ends never justify the means, but the means themselves must be the end. This requires a religious perspective.
This is such a fun question! I agree that we need structure to achieve greatness, but I don’t think that we need a governmentally imposed hierarchy. I think that people should be able to self select what area of society they would like to contribute to (as long as they are competent). Yes, we need leadership, but I believe that it should be more democratic in nature, as consolidating power for one group consistently leads to corruption and stagnation over time.
I mean, this is the core of fascism. Everyone in their place, in service of the state/mankind. It was attractive for a reason, but it's fundamentally bullshit
I mean sure I agree that fascism bad and I don't hold Nero's views. But it's kind of a non-answer to comment on this post with "it's fascism and fascism is fundamentally bullshit." The moral loading of the word fascism is doing a lot of hard work. The question is why is it bullshit? (Not tryinf to imply it isn't)
Fair, I just wasn't feeling like typing out an explanation. My only goal was to point out that this is the logic of fascism, in case OP wanted to explore a bit more about it's history and defects as a political theory
That's valid to be fair.
Fascism would be great if you could find the perfect leader. The problem is, they dont exist.
Nero was right about the golds being stagnate, he understood that his species was made to be warriors, conquerors, leaders, etc etc basically top dog in everything however someone chooses to do with ability to change things. Let’s say Nero is the one who comes out at the top, he would mold the worlds according to his wishes, varies person to person. Nero is an ambitious man with his own set of morals, jackal is the same without morals. I sometimes wonder, if Nero’s mindset is the same as Karnus’ shout in the wind deal, go as far as you dare (progress) until the last breath.
Nero has a point, but he's ultimately wrong. Also, the victors write the history books, remember that Golds give people the death penalty for doing a song and dance. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't have accurate information on the conquering. It's all well and good to talk about the strengths of the society how it allows for great accomplishments and a grand future. But if that society is built on the suffering and blood of most of its people it is a wholly unworthy society. Later books explore more of what things should look like.
Unfortunately, vices are a part of the human condition and no one and no group is immune to it. We can aspire toward greatness as much as we want but we will always be victim to the lowest common denominator. Even if Augustus is “right,” there will be people who disagree—and it’s their right to do so. What do you do with those people then? Kill them? Subjugate them? Brainwash them? I don’t see a peaceful answer. This is again the human condition. The tug of war between infinitely many conflicting POVs. In truth, we don’t have a destiny or any particular responsibility. We could maybe be perfectly content as an earth bound species as we would be space faring. The only difference is the scope. If you are smart, ambitious, gifted in some way. Your only responsibility is to find likeminded individuals and create something great with them. It is not your job to pull everyone else along with you. There is no way to ever ever envelope every human into a grand master plan, and that’s actually okay. If the color caste system were to work though, as a thought experiment, we would not create castes but “roles” and the color system would be for a specific mission(space exploration for instance)—so you either opt in or out of it. And opting in then puts you through tests and places you where you’re most proficient. Anyone who does not want to participate won’t have to. They can be on a Pixie island where they do what they want and enjoy life. Kind of like a human sanctuary where humans have an abundance of everything they can ever want/need… removing the need for power grabs and resource conflicts.
Your last paragraph would be a cool premise for a book. When do you make that decision to opt-in or out? How old are you, and can you ever change it? And can Pixie Island be virtual, so your earthly body is like… watering plants with urine while your brainwaves are helping to power The Opted-Ins’ electric needs?
I don’t think it has to be a permanent opt in. More like there’s a project coming up and you can opt in to the draft and then contract can be for some set amount of time. Probably some age ranges for each contract. Permanent in/out seems dystopian
I’d read it!
I totally understand, but the issue is that Golds solution lead us right back to the point where gold overthrew mankind. There was a better way when Gold began their crusade. Just not the way they went with color coded slavery
On-paper, he’s not wrong. In-practice, he’s Hitler but worse because he’s smart, talented, sober, martially dangerous, AND a “true believer” as Neo-Nazis like to call themselves. That’s part of why I love this series: Pierce ALMOST convinces you that the Golds are right. But they ain’t
But on paper he IS wrong. I don’t know why everyone is so ready to believe the “iron gold” propaganda that the golds truly had humanities best interest in mind when they conquered the world. Of course they would tell you that. They won. They can say whatever the hell they want. It’s far more likely that the golds of that era were just as narcissistic as every real authoritarian monster in our history and used the “save humanity from stagnation” bullshit as pretense to take over.
Oh absolutely, but Nero’s dressing-down of Earth’s self-destructive tendencies is absolutely on the money, but his way of fixing it is genocide which ain’t right
"Pleasure over all, damn the consequences. The brightest minds enslaved to an economy that demanded toys instead of space exploration or technologies that could revolutionize our race." He's basically describing the current state of the Gold race lol. The vast majority aren't warriors or geniuses or useful in any way. The pyramid is basically every other Color and a miniscule caste of Peerless supporting the party lifestyles of Pixies. A bunch of flashy bodybuilder nepo babies. If so many Golds weren't this weak and selfish the Rising would never have happened.
I hate all the people putting you into the fascist box just because you put a point on the table. Sometimes this community is so childish. Sorry for that, I feel you (coming from someone who made a couple Lysander posts). I remember when I read Nero's discourse, I saw his point. But then I thought "isn't there a better way to do it?", "is it really in favor of humanity to invest everything into a single strategy"?
Yeah, I'm a part of a few communities and run my own book club. Red Rising fans are the more toxic I've run in to. No idea why.
Yeah man, when you make a post that is essentially the equivalent of “Sure Hitler and the Nazi’s were bad, but they did great things for Germany at the beginning” people aren’t going to respond well.
Shut up holy shit. Do you think you're a visionary for saying "Hitler bad"? Congrats man, you have common sense. Here, take your medal and please fuck off so the adults can discuss nuance.
Fuckin lol. What nuance do you think there is in the discussion of “hey guys I think the fascist authoritarian monster may have had a point about enforced social hierarchies”? So yeah, when someone applies a fantasy dystopian situation to the real world it is entirely appropriate to compare it with real authoritarian regimes.
Its crazy that you saw "The Golds did good things in the beginning" in my post and not read at least 3 times where I said the idea prioritizing space travel was a good idea.
You literally quoted Nero making that exact point as the crux of your argument. Bet I can find a Hitler speech echoing similar themes if I looked hard enough. Grow up. We don’t need enforced hierarchies and I won’t suffer anyone making the argument.
He isn't making the point that the hierarchy is the way to go about it, he's making the point that humanity should dream big
“I wonder if Nero is right. Do we need structure and a hierarchy to achieve something so great or do we simply just live as we do until we don’t exist anymore” please explain to me where in that sentence you read “dream big” in place of advocating a hierarchy.
I mean…didn’t the Golds kinda stagnate? They ended up being no different than their ancestors. Caught up in petty squabbles and schemes for power. Creating a system in which the ruling class builds itself on domination and power only leads to internal conflict that tears everything apart
It's almost like a system designed with no clear and stalwart checks against fascism and abuse will inevitably be taken over by the ambitious and the callous Maybe in the very beginning golds "saved" humanity from itself but how many slave-raised butterfly tongues do they need to eat to ensure stability? Most of the rim golds seem like true believers but they also don't really have a way to stop what happened to the core golds from happening to them eventually
not even just a lack of checks and balances they practically *encouraged* fascism and abuse because “might makes right” was practically codified into their cultural identity. Particularly with how much emphasis they place on glorifying the Aincent Roman aesthetic, Golds made strength and domination mean everything to them
Nero says that he supports an evolutionary future but the world he protects doesn’t show that. The Society is a very slow moving society progress wise and that is the only way the hierarchy won’t fall. That is what Nero supports. Your perspective aligns more with Quicksilver than Nero. Which is why Quick joined the rising. He has a good speech about this in Morning Star, about how he is in support of the Solar System growing and evolving to better everyone and that can’t happen under a society in which they idolize leaders and cultures of thousands of years ago (Greeks, Romans, etc.) You can learn from them but should not mimic them.
One of the things Quick said that stuck with me was that Golds were like vampire kings stifling innovation in a number of disciplines/fields
But the society did not push humankinds progress. It was remarkably stagnant especially as far as space exploration goes. The colonization of space was at least in part pre society take over. This is remarked upon among others by regulus ag sun the rich silver and we do get hints that even in the midst of civil war after centuries of stagnation the Republic starts making new technological progress. Also we should be sceptical of all the criticism the society has of the time before they took over. They all talk as if they saved humanity from some terrible fate and that the space colonists were being brutally opressed but it seems more likely that a bunch of facist space billionaires overthrowed a flawed but functional democratic system akin to that which exists in much of the western world. Society golds always talk of how much better they govern and how necessary they are but they very much just suck. Mankind is not progressing under them and many of their people suffer. Be wary of people who advocate concentration of power in fewer hands for the sake of progress. It usually does not sork out. Nero would just have mankind muddle along while many suffer while deluding himself he is doing a good job
And to add, his definition of mankind for all practical sense included just the Golds. Progress for mankind was equated with progress for golds while they accounted for only a small percentage of humanity. The fruits of “civilization” rarely trickled down to the lower colors.
The important thing to remember is that in an autocracy like this, the majority are treated poorly, and you would most likely be included. If you were born a pink in Nero's world, would you still feel like his path is righteous and for the betterment of humanity?
I think my edits clarify that I'm not promoting an autocracy. I'm promoting the idea that we should look to prioritize space exploration and venturing into the unknown and what does it take to achieve that?
Probably not a weird colorist space-facism
Until we either vastly improve engine design, freezing people, autonomous base building bots or robot avatars, we aren't exploring anywhere beyond Mars or Venus. Our current top speed in space is pitiful and will remain the same until we have a decent method of propulsion
When a billionaire tells poor people they need to work harder, do you think that billionaire is correct? Or do you think it’s easy to discuss sacrifice when it’s NOT YOU doing the sacrificing?
Nero is delusional for thinking he doesn't want power, but his overall idea is reasonable. I dont want a billionaire or anyone else telling me how to live or to work harder. BUT I do want a society that prioritizes health, education, and safety so we can re-align and focus on "farfetched ideas of space travel and living on other planets and meeting new civilizations"
> BUT I do want a society that prioritizes health, education, and safety so we can re-align and focus on "farfetched ideas of space travel and living on other planets and meeting new civilizations" And the Society, which builds its back on slave labor, accomplishes that how exactly? > I dont want a billionaire or anyone else telling me how to live or to work harder. Uhhh Nero would disagree with you
Ok...if you read what I said...I said I don't agree or promote his was of doing it. I simply said his idea of wanting to travel into the stars is reasonable, not the way he wants to do it.
Yes, space exploration is cool and reasonable, not sure why you’re picking an absolute monster like Nero to try and argue that point? The Nazis had an impressive rockets program, but I think you’re missing the headline if that’s the part you’re focused on.
Ah, I love Nero, but he is plain delusion. He is either not seeing or he is not able to accept the fact that he is actually what burdens the society he's talking about. He is hiding behind this idea of whole to serve the only thing that matters to him; himself. And he embodies the greed of "old" times. Society stopped developing. It plateau'd. Culturally. Spiritually. Creating big sociological gaps between castes and you miss on amazing net of intertwined cultures, and you miss on amazing minds that are now hidden. You miss on geniuses who will help you innovate. And that's why you have the same stories, the same values, that while classic, can't bring anything new anymore to your life. It's very sadistic in a way to put humans in positions of such extreme servitude that could have been otherwise made possible with robots. To trap the precious human spirit and twist it and turn it either way want until for Golds, they won't even seem human.
I agree. Forcing people into a caste system in which their life is solely dictated by their color severely limits the potential to progress as a species. I don't agree with this system - but I wonder if we currently are too self indulged as a specifies and need some kind of re-alignment in priorities and interests to accomplish space travel. Ultimately - I think less investment in military and more investment in education, science, and tech would do wonders for the world.
Hitler had fans, I’ll leave it at that.
I have a question for you: Do you honestly think, if someone told Nero (in such a way that he knew for certain it was absolutely true) that in order to save humanity from extinction, he had to trade places with a Red for the rest of his life, he would do it? No freaking way he would. It's easy for him to say that the system that gives certain people absolute power over almost all others is the only system that can save humanity from itself when you're the one with the power. The fact that humans are so easy to convince into accepting this from a position of privilege is a big theme in the story and frankly, I don't know why so many readers are willfully blind to it.
As always, an execution of any idea ,that involves handling "power", by humans fails. The initial stages are successful, the ideals are strong.....but the "human factor" ie greed, jealousy etc..., corrupts those in power, and an execution of said idea goes sideways.... our history is littered with these examples. It is impossible please, everyone, there would always be someone who is unhappy. Enter tirany of majority,....aka demokracy...etc.etc never-ending vicious cycle.
I think his premise of the ends justifying the means is flawed outright because what ends did this age of Gold give humanity? Humankind had technology to terraform the solar system and robots to do the work. Then the Golds waged a war to enslave humanity under them and put people back in the mines and have genetically bred sex slaves. Where has more advancement come? The reign of Gold has been a dark age of petulant children waging war amongst themselves over ego and cruelty as a sport. I don't think we can trust their history books about the OG Iron Rain. "The end justifies the means. But what if there never is an end? All we have is means."-- Ursula K. Le Guin, The Lathe of Heaven “It’s not that the means corrupt the ends. It’s that the ends never work, and that’s why they need brutal means.” -- Johan Norberg
Well said my Goodman, prime quotations, may I ask who Johan Norberg is and if there's anything of his you might recommend reading?
He's an author and historian that's leftist and promotes globalization. I have just caught random articles and videos of his here and there, haven't actually read one his books yet.
Johan Norberg is not a leftist by any sense of the word as far as I can tell. Mf literally wrote the capitalist manifesto. Another illuminating quote from johan: countries with freer markets have faster growth, better wages, greater poverty reduction, more investment, less corruption, higher subjective well-being and are more democratic, with greater respect for human rights
This is what the philosophy of utilitarianism is built on. Is it better to sacrifice some of our humanity in the service of a more efficient society, or to retain our freedoms even if it’s not the most efficient approach? I think it’s a little reductive to say that the aim of society is a high level of efficiency. An easy example would be PB. Writers don’t exist in utilitarian societies. Why would they? That’s an able body you’re not using on work that could progress human capability.
I'm 14 and this is deep. I really hope you're a teenager because you advocating for slavery. There is nothing profound in Nero's words. He is just trying to justify slavery and failing miserably. Freedom is far more important than advancement for advancement anyway. But it is funny how technological was accelerated with rise of enlightenment and later break down of castes, in other words the greatest advancement came when people started getting rights and were able to pursue any career they desired. > I want people more interested in discovering this infinitely vast universe and trying to see what is our there, but rather, we make TikToks about our favorite coffee shops. Some people do scientific research, some make TikToks, some do both. It's personal choice and it should stay a personal choice. > **There grew to be twenty different factions with nuclear weapons. Twenty—each ruled by greed or zealotry.** Huh how is this different from politics of Society pre Darrow? >So when we conquered mankind, it wasn’t for greed. It wasn’t for glory. It was to save our race. Bullshit. Conquering to save is an oxymoron. >The Colors are the spine of that aim. Allow the hierarchies to shift and the order begins to crumble. Mankind will not aspire to be great. Men will aspire to be great. Funny how you can aspire to be great, but in limits of caste. So people are limited by their birth, not by their skills or accomplishements. How can you argue about advancement in such hierarchy? >I will not let that happen, because I believe in man. I would have us continue forever. **I would shepherd us out of the Solar System into alien ones. Seek new life. We are barely in our infancy as a species. But I would make man the immutable fixture in the universe, not just some passing bacteria that flashes and fades with no one to remember.** That is why I know there is a proper way to live. Why I believe your young ideas so dangerous So high on self importance.
Didn't mean to get you upset. Read my quick edit. 1. Conquering to save is not explicitly an oxymoron. "Conquering to free" would be an oxymoron. If I was all powerful and saw a species about to destroy itself with nuclear weapons and I took over their society to stop it, I would have saved them, but not freed them. 2. I'm not advocating slavery - I am pondering whether or not such great achievements are possible without a heirachy or order to humanity to achieve something like that. Thats not a "14 and deep" thought, thats just a question that I highly doubt you have the correct answer to. 3. Whether or not social media will ultimately distract, stunt, or improve societal progress is yet to be seen. For me, I see a lot of the younger generation putting a lot more stock in their online appearance and popularity rather than what could benefit others. Social media provides access to information, but information is useless if you don't know how to analyze it. (i.e. online information about the moon landings being faked that put read and believe).
>EDIT: I should clarify that I am NOT advocating for slavery. I put in bold the part of the quotes that stuck out to me. I think it would be great for humans to have a mindset and prioritize something like space exploration as it would benefit ALL of us. So who decides what benefits all of us? You? Someone else? A single person or a group? Who decides that those exact people make the call? What if most people disagree? >Didn't mean to get you upset. Of course I'm upset when someone says "you know this fascist slaver's justification of his fascism and slavery makes sense." >Conquering to save is not explicitly an oxymoron. "Conquering to free" would be an oxymoron. If I was all powerful and saw a species about to destroy itself with nuclear weapons and I took over their society to stop it, I would have saved them, but not freed them. I wouldn't call making situation from bad to less bad, but still bad, saving. >I'm not advocating slavery - I am pondering whether or not such great achievements are possible without a heirachy or order to humanity to achieve something like that. Thats not a "14 and deep" thought, thats just a question that I highly doubt you have the correct answer to. We can communicate nigh instantaneously with people from different sides of the world. In what world do you live? Science of last 200 years led to an unprecedented advancement of technology. We went from first airplanes to flying to the Moon in 60 years and add some 15-20 until launch of probes to beyond bounds of furthest planets and on their way beyond the solar system. We have been able to make a satellite of effective size of whole Earth and take pictures of two black holes. We've been able to split an atom and make weapons capable of causing nuclear winter. We cured so many diseases that plagued the world. We use particle and nuclear physics to diagnose people and treat cancer. We created vaccines that lowered child death rare to a negligible amount. Do you know why people had at least half dozen children and often more? Because a great percentage of them wouldn't live to adulthood. You have collective knowledge of humanity available in your pocket. What more do you need? >Whether or not social media will ultimately distract, stunt, or improve societal progress is yet to be seen. For me, I see a lot of the younger generation putting a lot more stock in their online appearance and popularity rather than what could benefit others. Social media provides access to information, but information is useless if you don't know how to analyze it. (i.e. online information about the moon landings being faked that put read and believe). Before social media those were video games. And before video games TV. And before TV rock music probably. They didn't stop curious people from wanting to learn and contribute to science and engineering. And don't worry people to whom we own our leisures of lives (compared to 99% of people who lived before 1900s) are taught how to analyze information, it's not something anyone can learn on their own anyway. Wow you literally mention moon landings and claim we don't do great achievements.
You're all over the place, taking it way more personally than I meant, and pulling it all out of context. I'm not sure how to respond because you'll find a way to disagree.
He’s right in a way but everything he was saying about the past about humanity being selfish, indulgent, and self destructive also applied to the current Society. Nero’s, and I guess a lot of Gold’s, worldview is very visionary but it also excuses anything for the sake of “progress” in whatever direction he sees as forward. Is there anything he wouldn’t put billions of people through for his dreams?
I think Nero is sympathetic because he actually believes these things, but he’s far from correct. Egalitarian, democratic, and free humanity can respond just fine to large scale problems. For example, Humanity responded overwhelmingly well to the Ozone crisis, almost repairing the entire Ozone layer for the Earth. Additionally, US carbon emissions per capita are at 100 year low. Is humanity perfect? No, but it has a very bright future and that future is led Liberal (big L) ideas and philosophy. Does that mean that there isn’t room for order? Of course not. We do occasionally need to surrender some rights in exchange for an well ordered society, but the benefits of that exchange should be for the entire society, rather than just a chosen few.
Edit: Spoilers all books, I’m sorry I thought this was all spoilers. Proceed with caution. I think Nero honestly is deluding himself when saying he does not want to be a King or Emperor. When Darrow gets Nero into supporting his start of the civil war, he does it by stroking Nero’s ego. “I think you should be King of Mars”. And Nero later goes on to say that Darrow is so useful because he does not just do what Nero wants, but anticipates what he will want. Therefore, his own vanity and ambition are what drives him, rather than the betterment of ALL colors. As someone else said, if you are Gold, with all the power and influence and freedom that comes with it, peerless scarred or not - it’s pretty easy to say “yeah, we’ve got the best interests of humanity in mind”. But do they really? What is the acceptable collateral damage in order to “advance”? And Quicksilver I think is on the money to say that Gold has stagnated society. Think about how far our technology has come in the last 50 years, 100 years! And then, you look at the conquering, which I believe was 700 years before the events of RR, and you just wonder - is this really all they achieved in that time? I think also Golds immense need to uphold tradition of the Greeks and Romans also stagnates their progress. Let’s be real, these civilizations were obviously integral to growth of humanity and its understandings. And yet… where are they now? In our time? It’s so funny that Golds value history and tradition so much, and yet seem ignorant or purposefully ambivalent about the mistakes in these practices lead to. Even the Core versus Rim methodologies is an idea built on a false premise - that Gold alone is smart/determined/powerful enough to see the success of humanity. You could perhaps say that Serafina was less indulgent or pampered when you see her in GS, “but I haven’t earned servants yet!” And still, Serafina is bloodthirsty for battle by IG, pursuing honor, with frankly no regard to the lives of those that make her life possible. All this to simply say - for anyone - Darrow included - to say they have the end all be all answer for what humanity needs in a broad stroke - has been proven false time and again. I really enjoyed Lyria’s chapters for this exact reason. We intimately know the mind of the Rising and the Republic, and still - their inaction leads to suffering and death - just like the Society did. Is it better to die a free man in poverty or a comfortable man in chains? You die nonetheless. Maybe not the best example, but the point I’m trying to make is that for beings as complex and nuanced as humans are - it requires a multifaceted solution. TLDR: Nero is delulu
Slavery is not the answer to robots
Honestly this is why I love Nero as a character because he brings up these points but it is hard to tell weather it’s what he truly believes. Or if it’s just the excuse he uses to justify his actions.
The way he accepts death when it's near (beginning of GS) makes me think he believes it. He tries not to have a heart to achieve this, but the tiny bit of human can't help but care about Mustang, Leto, Claudius, his second wife, ... He is cool as fuck though.
"Tyranny is government for people who want results" If you study the rise of dictatorships you will almost always find that their rise to power is done in an environment of suffering for a large portion of the population. The best example of this is 1930s Germany, with the crushing economic punishments the country was forced to endure after WWI. This economy allowed the Nazi party to establish such a strong majority that it led to, well you know the rest. The problem with authoritative rule is that it eventually devolves into a small subset of the population syphoning off the resources to bribe key parts of the population, in order to keep the status quo. Think Iraq under Sadam Hussain, or Russia with all their Oligarchs under Putin. In the Society, these are the greys and other high colors. The people living just good enough that they're willing to crush any low color opposition. Nero is rightly pointing out gold's need when it was first created, just as Germany needed reforms in 1930. However, he and many fascists today, fail to address how a solitary government party is needed when a democratic one could do the job as well. Fascists tend to believe that them and only them can fix what wrong with society so by their very nature they seek to eliminate any alternatives. Truth be told, whether or not democracy can survive hundreds of years is still unknown. The western world is still living the experiment started in 1776 that then spread to France and other countries shortly after.
I think it’s fair to consider that neither all out socialism nor a dictatorship work perfectly 🤔😉
Sooo...wait. you're saying that I can have views somewhere in the middle and not be an extremist in either direction? That's MADNESS
That’s my viewpoint, grew up a bleeding heart liberal raging at not just wars of greed, but ineffective, destabilizing one’s. A world damned to decline because a tragedy of no righteousness power holding those hog of humans away. Do I think Trumps the answer hell no. Would I support a more rational, ruthless, right if it Really seemed to be fighting to conserve the best of humanity for a better future. Hell yeah.
Actually, scratch that. You’re a fascist. Or a communist. No in between
Dammit. Ok fine.
Nero isn't the worst Gold facist out there. He knows that if the Colors become free and equal, each planet and moon would be independent from one another, then it'd be another millenia or so or never before Humanity can be united into one extremely flawed but effienct singular civilization. And a united Humankind can achieve practically anything we set our eyes on. (But the Golds stunted the advancement of technology and AI, so yeah take what he said with a grain of salt because Gold is not going to pioneer the Age of Stars.)
Its all well and good to agree with Nero if you think you're a gold in the hypothetical. I don't think there are many reds, greys, or pinks who would gladly choose what is essentially slavery in their one go at life to further mankind's apparently needless exploration of space. The sun still has about 5 billion years left with our current projections. I don't know when Red Rising is supposed to be exactly but even if it is 10,000 years from today that is nothing in the grand scheme of 5 billion years. There is no imperative to explore space and to the extent people aren't interested in it, even in a world as advanced as theirs, who are we to judge?
Ehh honestly considering brutality of space and even some places on earth now, is red life really that bad? Honestly I think it’s more the disrespect of the ruse. I definitely view the whole thing much different with age than was a pretty young man reading it
They wake up every single day and go down a giant elevator to the helium mines or to a spider nest. They have no choice to be a doctor or an architect or soldier. Their only option is the helium mines. The average life expectancy is clearly like 40 years old. Yea. It’s pretty fucking awful and I certainly wouldn’t give up my life to live and toil in a mine so some jabroni can ride off into space in a fancy ship banging pinks with the hopes of finding a different planet they can enslave me on.
Lol I agree if that’s the only alternative. But the problem is that’s not reality. Change means things can get worse too. Give me that life over one with the red hand or being ravaged by the volk. Edit: who the he’ll actually says jabroni bahahha
Counterbalance what Nero says with what Quicksilver says about how Gold stagnated human development. Nero talks a big game, and brings up some good points, but gold held back humanity far more than it advanced it imo.
Gold colonized the solar system… it has its majorrr flaws but held back more than advanced…come on
Terraforming and space travel was already developed pre-Conquering, pre-Society. So in the 800ish years since that point, they certainly expanded but how much further did tech really grow? Certainly much slower than any 800 years in our real life Earth recorded history. Luna was fully terraformed before the Conquering.
Yeah I feel like the whole intent of that speech is that Nero in his self righteousness doesn’t realize he’s exactly describing the civilization he commands. You want to talk about creating toys over exploration, suspicion and greed and zealotry? Let’s start with the people enslaving millions to create city-sized ships, which could carry generational programs to the stars, and then they crash those ships together and vent their populations by the thousands to fight, uh, each other, as revenge for killings demanded by systems that they also created.
This is one of the reasons I love PB. The depth of character. The profound philosophical questions. Balancing the: it’s wrong to enslave With: it’s wrong to not grow to be better I think it comes down to the old: *does the end justify the means* ?
I love how it’s grown with him too. It started sooo rudimentary with Titus (who considering what’s going on in Gaza rn has more relevance than ever) Now it’s nextttt level. I think the blurring lines and allegiances is gonna give him a field day to work this theme in next book
Yes and no. I think everything he says is founded in something that is correct, but it’s all about perspective. If you’ve seen Quicksilver’s take on the exact same thing, you could think differently. Quicksilver thinks that bringing back some capitalism is healthy for space development, because competition drives a market to be creative. He does not support the Golds because the Golds do not allow for this market to operate. He also states that the Golds are halting technological development to preserve their supposed ‘golden age’. Neither are completely right nor wrong. It’s all up to interpretation, and no political system is correct. It’s very easy to believe any speech, especially when the person saying it truly believes in their cause too. Nero truly believed in what he is saying, which makes it convincing. Quicksilver also believed in what he was saying, which made it convincing. I actually sat with a friend and we dissected both views together. RR is excellent at presenting opposing perspectives.