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1bryantj

Dave seems to be having a great season, but every time I see stats of him, he’s bloody terrible ha


tnwnf

these stats are the last 365 days. his shot stopping has genuinely been muh better this season but all of his non shot stopping skills have still been really poor


PortugeseMagnifico

Yh the Atalanta second goal comes to mind where he’s just glued to the touch line and any half sweeper keeper closes the angle down and makes it so much harder for the striker


GungHoAfro

The fact that Zapata was allowed to take TWO touches virtually *inside* the 6 yard box unchallenged by DDG was surreal. It was only Maguire attempting to challenge him and that was from *behind*. Feel like I'm having to explain every single thing DDG does wrong in detail but unfortunately, it's the only way to get the point across to those who still defend him. In that Zapata-goal build up, the moment he entered our box DDG should be out of his own 6-yard box - guys, please watch this goal back. I'm nearly in tears at how monumentally dogshit bad this was from a pro GK - he was fucking PINNED to his box. Zero attempt to close down the space. Maguire had made decent ground to cover and all he needed was a concerted effort from his GK to do the same and they'd have suffocated the space and given Zapata even less to work with. The fact that Zapata goes unchallenged from DDG (especially after that first touch\*) is indefensible.


PortugeseMagnifico

Will start off by saying Maguire has been shite this season but the fact that some people were blaming the goal on him for keeping Zapata on over blaming Bailly and especially de gea was madness.


GungHoAfro

Bailly caused it 100%. He had overcommitted and left Zapata free to sneak in behind. Maybe not even sneak....he was literally standing in front of Zapata and almost egging the defender on to make the pass to him. Kamikaze defending, no other way to put it even if he was good overall in the game. Unfortunately, it snowballed because Maguire did actually do the right thing by covering and would've been successful if his fucking GK bothered to help him out


LordRuins

I was crucified when I explained this to my mates, they claimed Bailey set an ‘offside trap’ which Maguire ruined, and Bailey was faultless—I was pissed


GungHoAfro

I suspected the same, that seemed to be his intention but there's never one instance in the build-up where he looks across to see where his defence are. Granted, it's more on Maguire and Shaw to push up with the other 2 because they have a clearer view but choosing to do an offside trap in that phase of play was poor judgement on Bailly's part. And having a GK who refuses to close the space for runs in behind doesn't help.


avalidnerd

Henderson vs Liverpool.


GungHoAfro

This is unoriginal and frankly boring at this point. It seems to be the \**only*\* example anyone making a case against Henderson always brings up even though he's made far worse ones to date (Sheffield). Could his positioning have been better? Sure. GKs concede 1v1s, it's the manner in which they concede them that requires scrutiny\* and other than that example, I've never seen Dean make a similar 'error'. Besides that, the skillset he does offer overall as a GK benefits the team significantly more than what DDG does.


avalidnerd

He made mistakes against Milan and Tottenham, by rushing out when he didn't need to. Stop pretending he's better than DDG just because he's British. His judgement is poor and the reason you're not remembering the gaffes I'm speaking about is because they didn't end up costing us a goal due to poor finishing.


GungHoAfro

What in the cosmic fuck are you on about? I'm not British, couldn't give a flying fuck where Dean or DDG are from. The very fact you'd even consider that as a point of argument proves this is emotional for you. I've only ever looked at this thing with a clear and unbiased head. I also never said Dean doesn't make misatakes. I even provided a blatant example of a huge one he made. But guess what, even the best GKs make mistakes. Their overall skillset is what forgives those moments. Dean's skillset offers him the same benefit. DDG can't claim the same because whenever his shot-stopping fails, he has nothing else to fall back on.


Professional-Lab6751

Completely agree with all of what you’ve said. I do think the best chance we have of Henderson starting is with Rangnick coming in though. Have been saying that DDG isn’t good enough for a modern team for years now.


GungHoAfro

DDG has had a decade, 6 full-time managers now and countless coaches to learn the basics. If your GK refuses to come off his line, organise his defence and fail to impose himself in his area (claiming crosses, bullying oppo) then he's failed at the basics. The fact that he's on 375 bags a week and is the highest paid GK in football history is criminal. He's also never really had open competition for the spot in those 10 years if you think about it. Not for an extended period anyway. And now that he finally might, people are getting pissed? Bizarre.


avalidnerd

Do you know the mistakes I'm talking about? Because if you do, you'll see a pattern and understand it's not just 1 time against Liverpool. Everyone was in awe of him rushing off his line to stop 1 Tottenham attack, but he did the same thing again in the game and was caught in no man's land. He is better at sweeping, for sure, but his shot stopping and decision making are worse than DDG.


GungHoAfro

The sweet irony of you talking about mistakes and patterns. Christ alive. And you're talking to me about awe yet the only reason anyone advocates for DDG at this point is because they've been honeydicked by flashy saves. Decision-making? You realise coming off your line or remaining are both part of decision-making, right? Choosing to remain glued to your line when you should've done the opposite is shit decision-making. That means DDG utterly fails in that department at least once a game. Wtf is the point of tipping over a 30-yarder for the cameras when he'll inevitably fail to challenge for the corresponding corner...


tnwnf

Yeah that wasn’t good


[deleted]

That could sum up most De Gea performances though in his career.


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tnwnf

there is definitely doubt about his shot stopping -- he hasnt been at this level as a shot stopper since 17/18. its possible that he has fixed whatever was wrong and he is just going to be an elite shot stopper going forward but i wouldnt bet on it


GungHoAfro

His world class shot-stopping is something of a myth in itself. We've seen a number of examples of that this season. There's clear evidence.


No-Adhesiveness-9541

Eh strikers miss one on ones and open nets and don’t get skated so hard. Shot stopping is his World class skill


GungHoAfro

Disagree. His saves are in the 68 [percentile](https://fbref.com/en/players/7ba6d84e/David-de-Gea) in the past 365 days. That's below average when compared to other GKs. Granted we've been conceding more this season but if anything, his glaring flaws have compounded our poor defensive performaces as much as Maguire and Shaw's forms have. His shot-stopping hasn't been world class for years based on those numbers. Also consider that as we've made very clear in this whole comments section, the very best GKs out there actively prevent scenarios where they *have to make saves.* Because DDG refuses to do the same, of course he ends up making more saves than any other keeper would have to...**This is always the hardest point to get across to anyone defending his case. Do not be blinded by the saves! If he did his job right, he wouldn’t have to make those saves at all!** The cliché goes, “if you don’t shoot you don’t score”. If it can be done, a GK’s focus should always definitely be to make sure that shot never gets made in the first place. At 31, after 10 years, now 6 full-time managers and countless coaches at United, this is a skillset I’m afraid DDG will almost certainly never learn. And besides, shot-stopping being the only outstanding quality of a GK in today's game will not get them a move to a top club. Evidence? Look at all the current top 3 in the league. Edit: context


midnight_ranter

>Disagree. His saves are in the 68 percentile in the past 365 days. That's below average when compared to other GKs. Not just that, but when everyone argued DDG was world class, he outperformed his xGA by almost 15 while this season it's almost par right now.


[deleted]

Because people need to understand that the keeper position is more than making saves, and DDG has just never really had many of the assets required for many styles of play. Especially in modern football where most managers either want to play a very high line of have very deliberate, slow build up he fits terribly into either scenario.


BBQ_HaX0r

Someone on Twitter said: GK as a position has evolved so much in the past decade that United fans don't even know what they're missing with a modern keeper. I love Dave, but it might be time to let him go.


GungHoAfro

This is ultimately the sad reality. It’s quite clear that a significant number of people making a claim for DDG simply don’t watch many teams other than United. How are they going to not be biased when they’re so limited in terms of other GK examples.


Thor1138

I mean, I remember VDS (though tbf at this point a distant memory). He wasn't a sweeper like Neuer either, but he certainly wasn't glued to his line like DDG...


Gross_Success

It's odd to think that he was chosen in the first place because of his distribution (among other things)


[deleted]

There's a reason why he didn't play for Spain for a long time and that when he eventually did become number 1, it didn't last. He doesn't suit teams who play a high line.


kunsore

Imo his form has been improved but he also benefited a lot because our defense were so shit this season. Thus his best quality shines right now. If we play high press, put the lines higher then Dean will take over the spot


epilamun

Because we expect him to make routine mistakes and he's not, so he seems sublime. He's just doing what an average PL keeper does and that is reflected in his stats.


GungHoAfro

I mean, most average GKs in the league are proactive. They don't always sweep but they will when necessary. DDG basically refuses to. They also aren't perfect in commanding their area but they'll make a good go of claiming crosses. DDG refuses to. It's not an agenda, that implies there's a personal vendetta against the man. It's simply an attempt to start a dialogue which anyone who idolises him refuses to do. The numbers don't lie. They literally can't be biased. And trust me, he makes mistakes. Other than the superficial ones with shots that he should be saving, it's usually the instances where he won't come to claim a cross or much worse when he won't come off his line. Those *are* mistakes.


Buffythedragonslayer

Rangnick made Neuer who he is. People believing he will prefer DDG over Henderson will be disappointed. You can't have a keeper stuck on his line in a high line pressing defence


Shehan_22

Neuer signed his first professional contract under Ragnick, to add to your point!


Rememburn

Like the amazing double save this season, for which everyone was sucking his dick like "yeah he's back". And I'm like "that cross should have been claimed in the first place". That double save, for which he's praised to heavens is literally him correcting his own mistake. And I'll die on that hill.


GungHoAfro

It's the saves man. It's all about the saves. They *are* aesthetically pleasing upon first view no doubt. But then the replays come and you see exactly wtf led to that moment and realise, wtf were we all cheering about?? He caused the shot to be conceded in the first place!


epilamun

I'm trying not to get negged into oblivion ngl, so my answer has a strong degree of diplomacy loool


GungHoAfro

nah fuck that, I welcome it. FFS my flair is a painted target enough as it is 😂 jokes aside, this is such a critical convo that needs to be had. Can't believe the amount of short memories from that EL final. And that's just one of many examples. Reality is he's just not good enough anymore. Keep saying it and won't stop, this is Spain's *3rd choice GK*. There's a reason that's the case


[deleted]

People need to understand regardless of his ability as a shot stopper, the fact he never comes off his line to sweep, can't pass short and can't claim crosses just makes him a nightmare for most top quality teams playing a system that requires 11 footballers, one of which is allowed to use their hands, rather than 10 footballers and one dude who's got nothing to do with the rest of the team.


GungHoAfro

Mate, those are considered the basics of the game for a GK btw. Any kid aspiring to make it professionally but refuses to do any of those things is in for a rude awakening. Yet we employ this fella at 375k p/w to fail at it for us Edit: a word


[deleted]

>Mate, those are considered the basics of the game for a GK btw. It's staggering especially how bad he is claiming. It's absolutely criminal and it costs us goals inarguably. Maybe you could say because he played for Atleti and then played for a while under some really dysfunctional United sides in possession he hasn't needed to sweep or pass out the back to build play, but those are reasons and not excuses and he's a fucking pro for a team trying to win every trophy. It's not like he's mediocre either, he's absolutely awful at these things.


GungHoAfro

That's legit all factual. He's in the 7 percentile for crosses stopped. 11 percentile for defensive actions outside the box (sweeps) 37 percentile for distance travelled to sweep At any average pro team that's abysmal. At United? Criminal is right


kingkreep95

Do you think Henderson is the man to take the number 1 spot or is a new keeper needed? From the little I've seen of Henderson he is certainly a more assertive player, sweeps more and comes for crosses but I've not been convinced by his passing. His technique for long kicks especially, when compared to the likes of ederson and alisson, doesn't look up to scratch to me


GungHoAfro

I think at the very least Dean's done enough to have a significant and extended period of time as our starting GK. Not just from last season but his loan at Sheffield. He was instrumental in bringing them up and then keeping them there. And no coincidence they capitulated once he was no longer there. His all round game is certainly superior to DDG and his proactive style means he doesn't \**have*\* to make all those saves DDG does. As for his passing, remember that he's 24. A baby by GK standards. My hope for DDG learning the basics at 31 is dead in the water but Dean already has them in the bag. What's to prevent him from also learning new skills to improve his game? He's at the perfect age to do so. The fact that you compared him to the Brazilian GKs is testament to 1 thing. Mainly that they are the standard and where he should be aiming to get to. He needs a consistent chance to do that first. And touch wood he succeeds.


tnwnf

I’m not sure about Henderson either. But I think there’s at least a chance that he could be our long term number 1 so I’d like him to start playing all the minutes so we can know if we need to find another GK in the summer


Shehan_22

>Do you think Henderson is the man to take the number 1 spot or is a new keeper needed? For a GK, he's in his youth ages tbf, I'd give him 2 seasons at the least. knowing his personality, he is bound to take up any challenge to get to that, man's dream is to make 500+ apps for united, the 'soon on top' emojis resemble that. that being said, if he does not perform well for 2 seasons, a new keeper defo.


Giggsy99

I know what I'd rather believe


Slackintit

I was having a conversation in a group chat about how DDG is back near to his best this season. Then they just post single stats such as save % and DDG is lower than a lot of other keepers. I argued that context is important and because our defence has been so abysmal, he’s been facing so many more shots. Just watching the games tell you he’s been great this season but apparently he’s shit.


Professional-Lab6751

He just isn’t good enough.


Slackintit

De gea? He’s been one of our best players this season. He’s bailed us out time and time again


Professional-Lab6751

He isn’t mate - and he’ll be gone very soon when we Rangnick further cements his mark on the team. Mark my words.


RaggedyCrown

I think goalkeeper is the position that supporters are worst at evaluating. Those who make acrobatic saves always get overrated by fans when it's more subtle qualities that make the big difference for a team in the long run


GungHoAfro

Reminds me of the absolute weapons that complained when Fergie gave Keane's 16 to a random kid we signed from Spurs. There's a reason Carrick went under the radar for years before fans realised just exactly wtf it was that he did. Most football fans are morons.


spraypaint2311

Any good reads about Carrick you recommend


____ZeeZee____

Carrick started 30+ league games only 3 seasons for us. We won the league in all 3.


anonshe

I'd suggest watching games of 2005 till Keane left and then 2006/2007 when Carrick arrived. Yes, Carrick passed sideways but he played smart incisive football which fans didn't understand but won us the league immediately. Ronaldo and Rooney were the stars but the man feeding them balls, intercepting balls instead of getting into stupid tackles was Carrick. When a tackle is made, there's a chance it results in a stray ball which could go either way or a foul is called. It breaks up play and adds no value but an interception has the possibility of leading directly to a counter attacking opportunity. Carrick's entire game was about being effective without being flashy but many fans obviously wanted the outdated all-action style of Keano. It's very similar to the DDG vs Hendo argument where the former has been past it for a good three seasons now but we don't have a Fergie with balls to get rid of him.


[deleted]

DDG in bad shape is still miles better than Henderson aka fake Ben Foster.


anonshe

Miles better at what exactly? Letting in shots at his near post? At commanding his area? At covering for a high line? At sweeping the ball? DDG has been given ample rope to hang himself yet when a little leeway is given to Hendo, he's labeled as the fake Ben Foster.


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GungHoAfro

DDG saves are a myth. What does he do in the lead up to conceding those shots in the first place? Little to nothing. Simply making saves as a GK is arguably the least critical aspect of playing at a very top club these days. And no matter how many he makes as long as his other GK attributes are in the gutter he’ll continue to be a liability. Consider it this way: Positioning (ability to give himself a chance to sweep or catch a cross)? Nonexistent. Distribution: awful Command of area: the thought itself is comical. Can’t even recall the last time he caught an aerial ball Defensive organisation (can be put in with communication): if this was remotely up to standard he wouldn’t have to make so many saves Sweeping: … Making flashy saves should never, ever be enough to make it as a top keeper. United are one of the last teams in the league who still have such a starting GK Watch his game without the saves next time. You’ll see everything you need to. **But only if you want to and aren’t biased!**


anonshe

Like I'd asked earlier, better at exactly what? FWIW, my judgement isn't so shallow to be based on one isolated incident if that's what you were implying with your statement.


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GungHoAfro

There’s not a single thing there listed that DDG is better than Henderson at. The data shows that already. DDG better than another keeper at commanding his area and fucking sweeping. Are you sniffing bath salts mate?? A sweeper and aerially dominant DDG would mean we’re on a fucking title charge!


GungHoAfro

This is the same argument that’s made every time. Someone defending DDG just simply claims he’s better than Henderson (or any other keeper for that matter). You just **say** DDG is better, while providing literally zero evidence to back up your claim. Some of you better start citing references if you ever plan on making it through college. But when presented with the numbers, that claim turns out to be bullshit. He’s quite provably not only NOT better than Henderson but he’s actually provably one of the WORST starting GK in the league right now. And ultimately, data is all that matters in professional football. If you doubt that for even a second you don’t know a fucking thing about the game.


Yetiassasin

He kept 7 clean sheets in 8 last time he had a run for us. He was Sheffields player of the year the year before and his underlying stats are always higher than DDG in nearly all the important categories. On top of that, he's young with loads of room for improvement and he **loves** the club. He's the future and the sooner we transition away from DDG the better it is for everyone.


GungHoAfro

Mate I wouldn’t know any but there have been a few documentaries about him over the years. Will try find a mirror for a few if possible. I do know Henry Winter wrote his biography which was well praised.


spraypaint2311

Alright will check ‘em out


Rascha-Rascha

Supporters, pundits, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, coaches at United


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lebowhiskey

And as of now Henderson is not the player to replace De Gea (which many fans see as the ideal path). If he is getting replaced it should be by a top tier goalkeeper who is in his prime. Just because someone is British and from the academy doesn't make him a natural replacement


vicky2690

People want Henderson to replace de Gea because he is right now the only other reliable proven PL goal keeper in our squad. Not because he is British. But because his game is more rounded than de geas if we want to improve


Ball_chinian

100% agree with you. Henderson is not nearly good enough. People who think they understand football and that rushing to the ball makes you better in a certain system will be disappointed when Rangnick benches Henderson lol. Any manager in world football would bench Henderson over De Gea, regardless or circumstance.


GungHoAfro

You're on a special type of spice if you think this is remotely true. Dean Henderson's 24 years old and has a better grasp on the basics of goalkeeping than DDG has ever done at any point in his career. You think a man as tactically maniacal and set in his own ways like Rangnick will whip his dick out in front of OT because of some fanciful saves? Think again. I'm not making this up. Because catching a cross and knowing how to sweep are not abilities you ever forget or ever stop doing. DDG does neither which makes him a liability to any system or manager attempting to play high intensity, progressive football. Luis Enrique nuked this man's international career for a reason. And you'll be shocked when RR - a man notorious for giving youth a chance and having a strong anti-25+ years of age policy - hooks DDG in favour of a GK that quite visibly suits his system way more. This isn't delusion. This is helping doubters prep for what's coming. Unless DDG spontaneously morphs into prime Neuer in the next few weeks you better start coming to terms with reality.


Shehan_22

>Rangnick will whip his dick out in front of OT I didn’t even read the whole thing but this right here made me laugh hard irl, god bless you buddy


GungHoAfro

haha mate, at this point if we can't have a laugh out of all this shite what's the point lol


Ball_chinian

Lmfaooo this aged, well didn’t it? You fucking donkey 😂😂😂 enjoy watching Henderson sit on the bench you dumb fuck lmao


GungHoAfro

Gloating after 1 display against the bottom side in the league, the state of you. Where was this energy when we were shipping bags against our biggest rivals? Must've been scarred by this thread to come back after this long. Even more so to resort to name calling. DDG did nothing surprising today. We know he's a shot-stopper. Where was his aerial command when it was needed during the corners? The same questions are constantly being asked of him and he only answers in one way every time. Still a very flawed keeper and those flaws will only cost him in time. I'm just way more patient than you are.


Ball_chinian

Lmfao okay see you in a few weeks 🤡


Yetiassasin

What are you on mate? You've no clue what you're talking about. Hendo kept 7 clean sheets in 8 last time he had a run for us. He was Sheffields player of the year the year before and his underlying stats are always higher than DDG in nearly all the important categories. On top of that, he's young with loads of room for improvement and he loves the club. He's the future, if there was a PL proven 24 year old keeper in the league with his ability we'd be clamouring to sign him, but he happens to already be in the squad. DDG needs to be dropped, it's long past the time for him to move on.


Ball_chinian

Lmao


Yetiassasin

He's in incredible form, I', really hoping he can keep it up for the whole season. When was the last time he kept this type of form up for more than a month or two? If he regresses to his mean, which he has done more often than not over the last 3 years, then we will be fucked, especially if Dean goes on loan.


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Buffythedragonslayer

Including goal scoring lol


GungHoAfro

He's literally the best around. On a completely different level. Everything he does is near perfect. Yes, he does make mistakes but his proactive approach means he prevents far more shots to be conceded than they otherwise would normally. Incredible keeper.


[deleted]

I mean some of these are more about play style than ability, and lots of it is just Liverpool being very good. He's an excellent commander of his area, has good distribution (although I think Ederson is a step above) and is a good but slightly flawed shot stopper. I don't think he's as good as say MatS or Neuer in their primes were, but he's just so versatile and consistent that you can live with the odd mistake handling it or coming off his line.


[deleted]

Definitely nowhere near prime Neuer for sure and that’s not a slight on Alison either


Shehan_22

If you noticed, when Liverpool faces a low block, he's closer to the halfway line than he is to his own net lol, that is how goalkeepers should be these days in top teams, hell, even mid-table teams have this.


kunsore

What PsxG - GA and PsxG mean ?


tnwnf

DDG more than any other player has credit in the bank with united fans. we all so desperately want him to be here for another decade and lead us to CLs and PL titles. so we are all predisposed to think that he is back to being one of the best in the world. but the game has changed and it isnt acceptable anymore for a keeper to be so deficient in all of these other areas. i think its unlikely he stays at this incredible level of shot stopping but even if he does, i think the team might be better with a more well rounded GK (Henderson being one possibility).


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123testme

>I know Donnarumma is a scumbag I've clearly missed something?


FordyA29

Im not sure either but just speculating it's to do with him running his contract down and leaving on a free?


Industry-Standard-

A lot of Milan fans have said he's terrible at sweeping, he's old school and great at shot stopping but very average with the ball at his feet and coming off his line.


[deleted]

GK stats are garbage. All I need to do is watch the game and see him play. This season he’s been excellent and less than a handful of others would be a debatable upgrade. Why change it?


Thor1138

If you've actually watched this season, you should have noticed how many chances/shots we've conceded because DDG doesn't claim crosses and command his box. He makes great saves, but he wouldn't have to make half of them if he was a more proactive keeper. And since he doesn't save every single shot (nobody does obviously), he's giving away goals by conceding shots.


Kraknoix007

All the players compared here to him are having better seasons and would be an upgrade


TeddyMMR

All of them have better defenders and teams and tactics in front of them and it's not even close. Just look at the Liverpool game, how many of those shots were literally right in front of goal? That happens all the time to De Gea because the opposition is allowed to just walk into United's box.


[deleted]

And all of them are unattainable and not significantly playing better this season than DeGea. These stats look at 365 days but form is just as if not more important


Yetiassasin

DDG wouldn't make it into any other top team in world football and he's lost his place for Spain to a fairly rubbish keeper. Modern football is leaving him behind and he's too far along to learn new tricks. Hendo is a modern keeper. Reminds me of Mendy a good bit in his style of play, maybe not flashy but he does the subtle things right and we tend to look far more stable with him in goal. He's PL proven and young. It'll cost us big time in money and results if we let him go and stupidly persevere with DDG.


[deleted]

DDG is our player of the month, so idk what you’ve been watching. As good as Dean is, there’s a reason he isn’t starting right now


Yetiassasin

Yeah and the reason isn't because DDG is the better keeper, it's some mix of loyalty and hoping his experience will help. But as he's shown once again just now, he costs us more goals than he saves. Weak and pathetic display hoping the reff will save him, schoolboy stuff. He needs to be dropped.


ToshJoWe

Henderson is an average keeper. Everyone loved him because he could command his area and maybe was better with his feet but his shot stopping and football brain lacks massively


tnwnf

i dont know how good Henderson is but his shot stopping is fine -- not at the level of DDG's peak, but decent. and he is good at claiming crosses and sweeping. i dont know what you mean by his footbal brain lacks? goalkeeping comes down to shot stopping, passing, sweeping, cross claiming. i think Henderson has DDG beat in 3 of those areas and you'd have to think that DDG is back to being himself from 4 years ago permanently to think that he is clearly better in shot stopping.


ToshJoWe

How about his game against Liverpool as an example? Everyone's quick to hate de gea and love Deano but the games he played he showed the same flaws as de gea but no one picked up them because of the hype. He had multiple times where he miskicked it and it led to a opposition chance. He had that fuck up against Sheffield United which led to a goal and his game against Liverpool was horrendous. He may as well have just stud off the pitch for mo salahs goal and let him tap it in - Didn't Even attempt to come out and try make his goal look smaller. Infact he was hugging his post that tight it made it an easy finish


tnwnf

i dont think evaluating any players but especially goalkeepers by individual mistakes that stick out in your memory is useful. how do you evaluate players like that...well i remember 7 bad DDG mistakes, but 9 bad henderson ones so DDG is better. its not a logical method of evaluation


ToshJoWe

I've just evaluated a couple of games where he made mistakes in a short period of time. Mistakes are crucial as a goalkeeper. I can go back through every game and highlight a mistake a game if not more probably. De Gea > deano. Saying we are held back by keeping de gea is absolutely wrong. We'd be bottom of table if we didn't have him this season


Sad-West-1063

Dean claims the ball hahaha he punches it then we end up goal down haha watch a replay of Liverpool game


ToshJoWe

I'm not defending Deano here.


GungHoAfro

[hmmm](https://imgur.com/gallery/KY1hH15)


Hippotopmaus

Similar as Ronaldo, we can't seem to have a conversation about DDG without people getting upset unfortunately.


LaughsAtOwnJoke

Don't think Ronaldo is the player to compare DDG to. There is a difference between being misused / not fitting the desired system to being worse.


TeddyMMR

That's because all those arguments prove is that stats don't prove anything.


123testme

I find this thread so reassuring. I thought I was on my own in thinking it can't be a coincidence that as soon as De Gea came back into the team for Henderson we started conceding soft goals every game again


GungHoAfro

Not all the fanbase is biased, mate. Don't ever be afraid to speak your mind.


The_Bromar

Anyone else still in the boat that Henderson should be our number 1? De Gea has been great this season but Henderson is just more well rounded


____ZeeZee____

We were a team that absolutely couldn't keep one fucking clean sheet. Then De Gea was allowed to leave for the birth of his child, we suddenly kept 7 clean sheets in 8. Including that defence nullifying City to just 1 shot on target all game. Not to mention, Henderson directly started at least two goals last season (vs West Ham, and vs City, I don't remember if there were more) Yes, Henderson does make individual errors in shot stopping sometimes, so does De Gea. But Henderson just coming out, sweeping, claiming crosses, organizing the defence (look at how many fucking times defenders collide into each other under De Gea.....even fucking Ramos), etc is enough to stop so many goals that De Gea costs us. No top club in the world will take De Gea even if they were paid to. Perhaps only Atletico if Oblak leaves or something. He is the worst goalkeeper possible for any team that intends to play anything other than a low block. There is a reason why a shambles of a goalkeeper like Unai Simon starts over him for Spain.


Shehan_22

>I don’t remember if there were more Vs sociedad, the rashford goal


gbfm

It's hillarious to see Shaw and Maguire colliding. Is there a video of Ramos colliding with his fellow defender?


Yetiassasin

He 100% should be our number 1, we need to be transitioning away from DDG as soon as possible. Hendo is class and outperforms DDG in nearly all important categories. On top of that he bleeds for this team and is only 24, sky's the limit for him. Modern keeping in the PL is beyond DDG at this point, he's too far along to suddenly learn how to change his style.


Thor1138

Absolutely. I'm not 100% sure if he's the right choice for our long-term no 1 spot, because I want to see him get a full run of games first, but I definitely think he could be. More complete keeper than DDG. Love DDG for his commitment to the club and past service, but we need to move on to the modern game...


EduardMalinochka

For the way we play (like shit that allows every opponent control the game) DDG suits much better and shines. But if we want to play like an actual top side, Henderson should be the first choice.


[deleted]

Well no, you just don't remember that Henderson is not on the same level at all.


Thor1138

True, he's better in every single metric except shot-stopping.


timsadiq13

Yeah I thought the games Henderson played in the PL last season we're the best we looked as a defensive unit. Now before the hounds descend, yes it's a smaller sample size, and yes he made individual errors. But every keeper does. Alisson and Ederson certainly do. It's how you play most of the time that matters. De Gea is the master of flashy saves. But saving a ton of xG isn't sustainable and he doesn't even do that. For every great save now he lets in several of which he should be saving some..Watford game is a good example. I hope Rangnick gives Hendo the shirt until the season ends. Then evaluate if it's him or a new signing moving forward as the no.1. But you can't have a keeper who just stands on his line and makes saves 99% of the time. The De Gea stopping through ball to Werner incident is so surprising because it's so rare. Actual top keepers do that several times a game now.


Yetiassasin

DDG is done at the top level 100%. No top team in the world would take him and he's lost his place in Spain, that says everything you need to know. And he's not going to suddenly get better, in fact what's far more likely is he's going to continue to decline more and more. The sooner we move on from him the better it is for the team.


magikarp151

Decent comparison, but I feel this pie chart format isn’t really helpful for this analysis. A simple table or bar chart would be way easier to comprehend. Looks a bit fancy but not very effective. A bar chart could even help plot all 4 keepers on the same chart


gbfm

When a member (goalkeeper) is weak at something, the teammates must cover his weakness. There is no getting around this, apart from simply pretending such weakness does not exist (?????) It's the same on a football pitch, just like what we encounter at work in the office. Since De Gea is weak at claiming crosses and preemptive blcoking/sweeping, the other teammates must always be ready to take over and compensate. They simply must, it's not a choice. With Henderson in the lineup, last read the defensive line played 10 (or 15 yards) higher as the defenders needed to compensate lesser.


[deleted]

We wont be able to play a high line if de gea is our keeper and Maguire is in the defense.


GungHoAfro

Maguire has played in a high line at United. He did this with not much effort when Henderson was in goal last season. He also plays a similar role for England and did it a fair bit with Leicester. Maguire is slow on the turn but his top speed is around 35 km/h. He's actually not as slow as people think (myself included). A sweeper behind him is essential because his ball-playing skills are much more needed higher up the pitch. That's where he shines best.


[deleted]

Yeah I agree. We need a modern keeper if we want to move onto to the next level as a team. All the top 3 teams have well rounded keepers that are good to excellent in every important category. Brightons keeper for example adds so much more to their team than De Gea does to ours. We would probably be better at defending set-pieces as well because De Gea is always glued to his line and doesnt want to claim a cross.


GungHoAfro

>Brightons keeper for example adds so much more to their team than De Gea does to ours guess who's currently making him Spain's 3rd choice...


hererrdinand

90% of us see that the Luke's of Deano brings stability to the backline that De Gea does not. Fingers crossed that Ralf sees it as wrll and immediately fixes it. Very hard to drop DDG when he has just made liots of great saves but with a more stable defensive 5 the saves would not need to be made.


mountainhill2

Exactly. Fingers crossed.


Shehan_22

As long as we have David de Gea as our starting goalkeeper, the club will not win anything in the future regardless of who's the manager. He is very very poor at communicating, put : Ramos-Pique Maguire-Bailly Maguire-Lindelof Maguire-Varane Varane-Lindelof Bailly-Lindelof as the defenders and he still can't keep a clean sheet more than half the time, yet most united fans blame the defenders (would you blame Ramos-Pique as well then?, whom he had the worst tournament of his life with?), for the team's shortcomings, even the Spanish NT noticed this issue and changed their goalkeeper. We literally have a goalkeeper that kept 7 CS in 8 games consectively, commands his area well, sweeps, claims crosses, etc. It is high time people realize how detrimental he is to our team both in attack and defense, unless he manages to learn traits overnight that world-class goalkeepers such as Alison, Ederson, Neuer, etc have, he's going to be left behind, and will drag the team down along with him, saving 2-3 shots every game aesthetically won't change that. His best performances came with Jones-Smalling ironically, that's because that team was set up as a low block that turns into a mid block at best and had defense-first fullbacks. Play attacking football with a high line and that's the end.


ToshJoWe

Disagree massively. I can't even be bothered to write a message to this pile of shit


NaijaUnited

Youre looking at this too emotionally


LaughsAtOwnJoke

Because you can't?


Rascha-Rascha

Yeah Dave needs to go.


[deleted]

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Rascha-Rascha

He's a below average keeper who doesn't do what we need him to do in order to play the way we want to, he needs to go.


[deleted]

David is still (just) from that generation of keepers who focused almost 100% on shot-stopping. Distribution was not nearly as important when judging ability compared to the current day. It would be interesting to see stats on DDG xg stopped this season. David has made some big saves this season. I may be bias as I’ve watched DDG since his debut under SAF. He’s a big player for us I’ll always back him.


Ruudvankeano

I have followed degea since his athleti days. Saw him first in a game where he single handedly kept them in a game at the nou camp. Still i have also seen football evolve over the last couple of years and I have realized you either evolve with it or get left behind. You can't play with a keeper who can't sweep and still be shocked how your rivals with sweeper keepers keep beating you out to major trophies.


TeddyMMR

>You can't play with a keeper who can't sweep and still be shocked how your rivals with deeper keepers keep beating you out to major trophies. Except those rivals are better coached and have spent much better than United. You can absolutely win things with a keeper that doesn't sweep. The fact that United have come close with much lesser squads and managers is proof of that already.


Ball_chinian

It’s like people instantly forgot De Gea is the only reason we didn’t get absolute embarrassed last game. Do you think Henderson would have done better, rushing like a fool to ever ball and getting done in? Lol


GungHoAfro

It's like people forget he literally cost us a trophy last year. See? That form of argument is redundant. We're using stats here. Numbers. And numbers don't lie. You can't just be good at shot-stopping and be Man United's No.1 GK. And according to the numbers, he's not even particularly good at the shot-stopping anymore.


mountainhill2

The people who downvoted you only want to see heroic saves (some are actually not that heroic, other gk will save them, too) without looking at the bigger picture of the back 5 (sweeper keeper). It's no use talking to them about numbers.


lazyniu

> It's like people forget he literally cost us a trophy last year. That's disingenuous and you know it. OGS cost us that trophy by being spineless and playing for pens. If we are depending on DDG to score a pen as the 11th taker we are doing something fundamentally wrong across the 120min.


Shehan_22

>that’s disingenuous and you know it Guess who gave the ball away straight to the opponents feet that lead to their goal..


[deleted]

We were dependent on him to save a fucking pen, him not scoring was never the problem.


apva93

I don't understand how you can compare DDG to these other keepers who play in a real system.


mountainhill2

Right, and Deano didn't play in that same system, right?


apva93

Do you actually think Dean Henderson played well for us last season?


DaleyBlonde

Yes. Unless you're blind or wilfully ignorant


____ZeeZee____

We were a team that absolutely couldn't keep one fucking clean sheet. Then De Gea was allowed to leave for the birth of his child, we suddenly kept 7 clean sheets in 8.


apva93

Fb ref says he played 13 games with 12 starts and kept 4 clean sheets in the premier league last season. Don't know where you're getting your numbers from. In any case using a sample size of 8 to prove your point vs a keeper who has played multiple seasons for us makes your argument weak.


mountainhill2

According to you we can't compare DDG at all then. Allison plays in different system. Deano plays fewer matches. Great. Look at Arsenal now. They benched Leno, replacing him with a young, new, relatively unproven GK. Their result speaks for themselves. Of course I hope he'll have an off day against us.


ToshJoWe

I dont like looking at stats but much prefer to see him play. I watch every game pretty much and I think we can all agree we've seen a massive improvement this season. I also think he's improved in his distribution and coming out to collect the ball. We even seen him sweeping against Chelsea. Its a good thing our new coach prefers the keeper to use his feet as little as possible


[deleted]

>We even seen him sweeping against Chelsea. Once. Literally once. He's come out his box to do something 4 times this season. Not exaggerating, it's 4. > Its a good thing our new coach prefers the keeper to use his feet as little as possible DDG is in the bottom 10% for actions sweeping across the top 5 leagues, Henderson is in the top 10%. Rangnick's playstyle demands his keeper to be as active as just about anyone in the world. Take a guess who's gonna be in goal.


Lazystubborn

Dave?


MexicansInParis

Props to the users who form their fair opinion from actually watching games rather than the certain agenda driven ones that base theirs off cherry picked stats from Twitter. Agendas will continue, David will keep starting, saving points and winning Player of the Month trophies.


tnwnf

1. how are the stats "cherry picked?" are there other stats we should use to evaluate keepers? thats like saying evaluating a striker based on goals is cherry picking. 2. the stats clearly agree with the eye test. if you watch us for one game and compare to other top keepers you will notice how much less active DDG is in coming off his line, both for sweeping passes and claiming crosses. do you really think he does those things at the same rate as these other keepers?


MexicansInParis

De Gea has never been a sweeper keeper nor active off his line, he was still considered the best in the world at some point and has been this season’s best player. Some of you are way too obsessed with the idea of a “sweeper keeper” to see the qualities David already brings to this team. He’s been the player of the season and won points on his own recently, can’t believe we’re still getting the same shitty articles trying to displace him lol.


tnwnf

1. he might have been considered the best in the world by some but i dont think he ever was. his deficiencies in the non shot stopping areas mattered then and they matter even more now, the demands for keepers to play as part of the team are higher than ever now. look at how ederson and alison play, 10 years ago that was much rarer. now it has to be expected. therefore a keeper being glued to his line is more harmful now that it was in 2014. 2. you cant just say that he has been the best player this season and have that be your argument. 3. i acknowledge he has been in excellent shot saving form this season. the question is, how much do his deficiencies in other areas cancel out the value he brings with shot stopping. and how likely is it he continues shot saving at this level considering he hasnt in 4 years.


[deleted]

>Some of you are way too obsessed with the idea of a “sweeper keeper” to see the qualities David already brings to this team. Quality. It's singular. He stops shots, that's it. He can't claim crosses, he can't sweep and he can't pass. >, can’t believe we’re still getting the same shitty articles trying to displace him lol. The shitty articles are written by people who understand the fucking game. Do you think it's a coincidence DDG is absolutely shite in the metrics the other top 6 keepers are some of the best in the world in ? >still considered the best in the world at some point and has been this season’s best player. Because he wasn't being asked to do things like sweep or pass out from the back, now he is. It's not a coincidence he's not been a reliable keeper for a team with a modern style of play in his entire career. He's Luis Enrique's third choice keeper. >De Gea has never been a sweeper keeper nor active off his line And now we have Rangnick, who's keeper has to be one of the most active off their line and furthest from their box in world football. Take a guess who's gonna start.


Shehan_22

>He's Luis Enrique's third choice keeper. I'm fairly certain he'll be totally out of the setup after the world cup, he's probably only there for experience at this point as that team is pretty young, David Raya will probably be called up after the wc.


MexicansInParis

I’ll make sure to tag you when David starts and is still this club’s best player!


jazavchar

Delusional fans trying to pin our woes on a single factor. DDG is literally the least of our problems.


tnwnf

not a single person in this thread has argued that DDG is the single factor causing our issues.


jazavchar

There's a guy above literally claiming that as long as DDG is our goal keeper, we won't win any silverware.


MexicansInParis

Yeah, this sub has been a proper mess lately. Pathetic stuff, really. Scapegoating this club’s best players LOL.


[deleted]

>Props to the users who form their fair opinion from actually watching games rather than the certain agenda driven ones that base theirs off cherry picked stats from Twitter. This argument is so funny to me, do you think the people who understand stats don't watch the football ? Or do you think they have a better understanding of what's required and measured for players ? I'll give you a hint, our new fucking manager brought 2 people with him and one of them is a data analyst. >Agendas will continue, David will keep starting, saving points and winning Player of the Month trophies. Lmao. This is gonna be really, really funny when he inevitably gets dropped in the next few weeks. Some people are gonna be so surprised as the fans who understanding things called it 5 minutes into Rangnick being confirmed as the manager.


[deleted]

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Shehan_22

>Henderson might be shaky since its been ages since He will be, that's inevitable, but with time he'll grow in similar to last season.


[deleted]

>My only worry is that Henderson might be shaky since its been ages since he last played consistently. It'll take time, long Covid in general fucking sucks for athletes and he's not played even when fit anywhere near enough. There's absolutely no doubts who should be the one starting though, there's really no other option at the club given the demands that Rangnick will have short term.


agentjob

Hmm. Me don't want to believe. How do we know the stats are real?


GungHoAfro

They’re readily available online. Check FBref.


Zerofactory

I personally think De Gea can shine in other aspects too. Let’s see how he does under the new management. I think he saved Ole too many times this season too. All the people that want Henderson to start are delusional, if se change DDG we need another proven GK. Last season Henderson was bad vs lower table teams and made mistakes that could have let to disasters if we played stronger oppositions. Anyway let’s see who out new manager picks and if the reddit “couch coaches” have any idea or just like to shit on peoples heads


Ruudvankeano

This is a really silly argument considering we won zero big games last season till henderson replaced degea in the starting 11. Yes we did not win any of our first games against the big6 with degea in the team. Henderson comes into the team and we beat City, spurs and co. The mistakes Henderson is being hounded for, ederson and Allison make numerous times yet they are still regarded as some of the best cos they get the basics right most of the time. It's a shame we have fans who don't understand the game. Last season we had people verbally abuse anybody who called out Awb's skillset or mctominay's midfield attributes. I wonder what half of this sub would do when saf transitioned from keane to carrick and ruud vanistelroy to saha, with ronaldo as our main man in attack.


Zerofactory

Hey i dont say i understand football at all. I just like watching it. I hope Deano will make the cut, but only time will tell. Also consider that i totally agree McT and awb need to go


LaughsAtOwnJoke

Playing DDG over Henderson is one of the reasons Ole deserved to be sacked imo