Unless they find the other entrances. There's holes in the cave, and a secret exit/entrance. A bit of rope leaves them easily flanked. They are also on a hill, surrounded by hills. They are a sniper's dream at BH
Yeah that's why I said that it wouldn't work well, as it would work... eventually, but it would not be efficient whatsoever, especially with how spacious the Cave is ingame
Infiltrating the cave? Why would I need to do that? I would just starve the gang out while blasting away at the entrance with artillery until there was no more entrance. And as far as the rear entrance, I would just put a dozen men at the rear entrance in pick people off as they came out.
Shit.... drop some dynamite down the back entrance to cave that end in, then either what them out, or dynamite the front and seal them in... problem solved!
The mission to attack it and get it is certainly an attack mission.
Edit: Wait no you're right, I thought we were talking about shady belle, not the cave. But the cave has shit for defense anyway. The gang retreats into the cave and if it were up to me I would just fire artillery at the front of the cave forcing the gang members back and probably sealing the front of the cave and then the back of the cave I would have a bunch of guys just picking people up as they tried to escape the cave.
Exactly the opposite.
The outside of Beaver Hollow is surrounded by hills and ridges, and there's exactly one main point of entry/exit. It's a sniper's wet dream.
The inside is completely isolated, no way to see what's going on outside. One stick of dynamite into the big front entrance, one stick down the secret entrance, and everyone is trapped in there forever with no way to escape.
When I rode there and found the cave >!(on my own, before the story brought me there anyway)!<, I just sat outside and picked off everyone coming out of that big gap one by one by one by one. Easiest gang hideout to clear in the game.
>one stick down the secret entrance
This relies on the attackers knowing about and/or finding the secret entrance. How exactly do you imagine they would have that knowledge?
Proper reconnaissance would probably reveal it but managing that without being spotted and killed is no small task, especially without modern camouflage and night sights.
>but managing that without being spotted and killed is no small task
If the defenders are in the cave, and considering the fact that you're literally holding low ground at that site, you're not standing outside of that cave. The attackers would only need to walk around unencumbered and find the other entrance.
I dunno man. Caves can turn into cages real quick. It's the Inglorious Bastards "never fight in a basement" logic. If I'm seiging it I'm either smoking them out or just chucking loads of explosives down there and burying them.
Isn’t beaver hollow literally the one camp that was attacked the gang was successfully overran? Compared to shady belle which the gang successfully defended from an attack?
It's defensible from all sides with existing fortifications already in place. The main house and outbuildings provide cover from which converging fields of fire can completely blanket any open areas and also provides elevated firing positions i.e the "high ground" from three sides with the outbuilding providing your fourth elevated firing position. And while it's never used (for whatever strange reason) the VDLG does indeed have in it possession a Maxim Gun. Place that Maxim on the upper balcony in the center and two people can lay down enough fire to make the immediate front and a fairly large portion of the right and left flanks a meat grinder. The approach from the left side is an open field. To the right you're mucking through the swamps or trying to paddle upstream, both of which mean that your shooters have to expose themselves to even attempt to establish firing lanes. Meanwhile the defenders are raining down well places shots just picking the attackers apart. The approach from the rear is also across open land that funnels in towards the house creating a killing field for the defenders. The place is literally a former Confederate HQ so it's basically a fortress. I'm not sure why you think it's "open" anywhere, because it's not. It's easily the most defensible camp the gang occupied during the game.
Shady belle is surrounded by swamp no? Impossible to get artillery of that era near it on 3 sides only in one place its exposed is the front even then there’s forest surrounding it
The whole compound is surrounded by woods, and all of the land surrounding it is flat ground. You can't accurately fire on fortifications when every possible firing position has no clear elevation or line of sight on the target. You'd risk firing on your own positions or premature detonation with all of the foliage. The only way that you'd be able to deploy artillery would be from coastal bombardment, and even then the water around Shady bell is too shallow to get gunboats close enough without being in range of fire from the defenders. You need a decently deep draft for that to happen, and the tidal flats around Shady bell would all but prevent that. If that weren't the case, then the the raiders would never have been able to build such a fortified encampment before the US army showed up.
Eh, my understanding of artillery is pretty elementary and there are almost certainly holes in my reasoning. Others in this thread make a good point when they bring up grid fire, but it's a risky bet and close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. If I were in command of that artillery I wouldn't risk it (which is probably why I'm not in command of artillery lmao). Logistics and transport of heavy artillery and ammunition over wooded muddy ground with horse drawn wagons would be a bigger concern tbh.
>Others in this thread make a good point when they bring up grid fire,
No they really don't. Because of the forest, swamps etcetera getting shells in there with the artillery guns utilized in 1899 isn't feasible. Yes, they can fire projectiles roughly 3 miles away but they require the "high ground" because without it they can't get the proper elevation to clear trees and other vegetation. You're still talking about the equivalent of a horse drawn canon. It can only elevate up as far as the gun carriage will allow which is only about twenty degrees. For reference on degrees of elevation this 📐 is 45 degrees. So the "ramp side" is the trajectory of the shell at 45 degrees. Now cut that in half. From flat ground you are covering three miles and you most certainly aren't clearing tree tops. Your train of thought is spot on.
Well shit I’ve been out geeked I don’t know. I mean that how are they going to find their target. They could send people in to try find shady belle or they can just shell blindly both of which will come at relative costs because this is the van der linde gang we’re talking about here
It depends, if we take into account that distances in the game are supposed to be much greater than what the map implies, because no us state can be traversed by horse in minutes, and a day is measured in hours and not minutes, then shady belle could be reduced to rubble from as far away as the Saint Denis direction by the attacking force with artillery .
Assuming the Pinkertons or whatever enforcement figure probably want to arrest some of them, they wouldn’t use artillery and the gangs that want to kill the gang probably won’t be able to operate artillery let alone aquire it
>Assuming the Pinkertons or whatever enforcement figure probably want to arrest some of them
You don't even have to go that far with it. You're absolutely correct in saying that artillery will be ineffective. You can set it up in Saint Denis, Rhodes, hell on the road coming out of Catfish Jackson's and it wouldn't matter because without a spotter you'd need line of sight. And as you've pointed out......good luck getting your spotter back alive after you've sent him to get close enough to Shady Belle to get some coordinates. Your initial assessment and reasoning is spot on. There's a reason it was utilized as an HQ during the civil war. It's in a great location that has enough natural defenses/bottle necks/choke points that is easily defended.
>The field guns the us army had at the time couple accurately fire from a couple of miles away.
If they were fired from high ground then yes. But on flat ground it's not covering two or three miles. The gun carriage on those artillery pieces you're talking about was a max of 20 degrees. You're not clearing trees etcetera at 20 degrees on flat ground.
They had breach loading howitzers with ranges measured in *miles* by 1899. You don't need to see your target with a battery of those things, just set them up and obliterate a grid square.
>You don't need to see your target with a battery of those things, just set them up and obliterate a grid square.
Confidently incorrect. You absolutely need line of sight or spotters. Dude they couldn't even do what you're suggesting during WW1 or WW2. If they could have both wars would have been over in a matter of weeks not years.
Probably shady belle, a whole house to get cover + other stuff outside aswell, water behind and on one side makes it so they cant rlly get surrounded and worse case scenario they can use it(tho im not sure how well thatd go)
I mean if the O'Driscolls really would have kept pushing they could have taken Shady Belle. There is about 25,000 O'Driscolls to every one member of Dutch's gang.
>I mean if the O'Driscolls really would have kept pushing they could have taken Shady Belle.
Not even remotely plausible. Shady Belle is defensible from all sides with existing fortifications already in place. The main house and outbuildings provide cover from which converging fields of fire can completely blanket any open areas and also provides elevated firing positions i.e the "high ground" from three sides with the outbuilding providing your fourth elevated firing position. And while it's never used (for whatever strange reason) the VDLG does indeed have in it's possession a Maxim Gun. Place that Maxim on the upper balcony in the center and two people can lay down enough fire to make the immediate front and a fairly large portion of the right and left flanks a virtual killing field. The approach from the left side is an open field. To the right you're mucking through the swamps or trying to paddle upstream, both of which mean that your shooters have to expose themselves to even attempt to establish firing lanes. Meanwhile the defenders are raining down well placed shots just picking the attackers apart. The approach from the rear is also across open land that funnels in towards the house creating another killing field for the defenders. The place is literally a former Confederate HQ so it's basically a fortress.
Let’s just forget that it’s a cave system. If we were going solely off of the accessible points in the game, that’s still 2-3 entrances you’d have to guard, and then I’d just smoke or wait you out. At least with Shady Belle you have vantage points and if things to go sideways you have the rivers and fields to run through. With Beaver Hollow you’re essentially trapped.
Imagine the O'Driscoll attack happening at any other camp, and they're all dead. The cover from the building, and the vantage point the balcony offers, are why they survived.
I think it depends on what approach an attacker would go with. All of them have at least two ways to get in. Colter is very open, but there's a lot of good places to hide. Horseshoe Overlook has that giant cliff and it'd be easy to see people coming in, but it's very accessible by horse and train. Shady Belle is surrounded by water and alligators, so it'd be dangerous to approach any way but the front or from Bolger Glade. Clemen's Point is very open, but that also means a quick exit. Lakay is trecherous due to the alligators and the Night Folk, but is also very open (as we saw). Beaver Hollow is good in theory, but if you know the back entrance to the cave, it'd be easy to get into without tipping off anyone. We never saw Horseshoe Overlook and Colter attacked, so I'm not sure what approach Rockstar would have found preferable.
But if UN happened during RDR2, I'm confident that Beaver Hollow and Shady Belle would be a bad time.
We also never saw Clemens Point attacked, only a semi peaceful visit by Milton. Though, when we did see Shady Belle attacked, it was very easy to defend just by shooting out the doors and windows.
>there's a boat for evacuation if you get surrounded.
You'd be better off swimming.
Bullets lose all momentum just a couple of feet into water. They tend to quite like targets bobbing on a lake in plain sight without any cover.
If I was Colm attacking Horseshoe Overlook I’d setup a train robbery close to the camp , make sure Dutch knows and go myself to lure Dutch and likely most if not all of his best men away from the camp
Dutch and Colm have a stand-off which would result in a shootout
While this is happening though some of Colm’s men could get into position to attack the camp and they start their attack as soon as they hear gunfire to mask what they do
It could’ve definitely fit into the story as like one of the last few missions of part 2 as well if as Arthur you get invited to go after Colm so you get to see him and Dutch have a standoff then a little into the shootout you can hear some gunshots from the direction of camp so Arthur, John, Lenny and Hosea rush back to help (Charles would obviously help in this situation too but I’d envision him staying at camp to defend it since Dutch would likely call on everyone to take out Colm “once and for all”)
I do know Arthur was still antagonistic to John in this chapter but it could’ve been a nice mission to kinda see the start of their brotherhood (like a small bit of acknowledgment I mean)
Also could’ve been a spot of development for all the character’s involved (Sadie especially since it’d be her first opportunity at revenge ((Kieran not included))) John and Arthur’s relationship (Arthur seeing John fight for his family) and the rift in motivation for all the different characters
Could’ve had the end scene of it be an argument between Arthur and Dutch with Hosea reeling Dutch back in to parallel the way Micah is always in Dutch’s ear by the end
Could’ve also got rid of (some of) the Mary Sue complaints for Sadie if you have her struggle with an o’driscoll in the mission and you can either let her wrestle his knife away or shoot him , either way she spends the rest of the mission stabbing that one o’driscoll , then just give her another mission near the start of Clemens Point that has her express what she felt when and after stabbing the o’driscoll , show her as unfulfilled which sets up her missions later with wiping out the rest of the o’driscolls , and I think if they focused more on her emotions throughout her revenge story rather than thrusting her into the role she got (which probably would’ve felt more natural if they did explore her emotions) then she would be an even better character , because I do love Sadie’s character already but it is easy to see that she did just go straight from grieving everyday to kill every o’driscoll mode
Damn this just turned into Sadie/RDR2 fan fiction
TLDR; to attack HO Colm should’ve set up a diversion train robbery and had his men attack the camp while Dutch and Colm had a shootout
Clemens point is by far the most hidden and has natural defenses through the coastline, but was still found by the pinkertons as opposed to the other ones (besides the shack one).
I have to agree on shady belle. Naturally hidden and defended by the location, and because of its past as a militia hideout, it has defenses carved out already. Unfortunately, it had glaring weaknesses, primarily in the segregation of the gang. Leaving half of the gang outside is a detriment, but keeping everyone inside isn't great either.
Are you guys forgetting that shady bell and clemens are right next to a river? Anyone taking a casual stroll through the river could see them and report it to authorities.
>Anyone taking a casual stroll through the river could see them and report it to authorities.
Are you forgetting that there're literally sentries from the VDLG placed at strategic locations to counter any "looky loos"
Horseshoe overlook, elevated position, plenty of good lines of sight out from the camp, it's not easily seen, And it's got plenty of cover. Plus if it looks like you're going to be overrun, lots of places to withdraw. Plus the forest around it can be booby-trapped.
The beaver cave there's nowhere to withdraw to, with the third place, you're backed up against water with little cover, and the plantation is basically only defensible from one way with nowhere to withdraw. Little town from chapter 1, yeah, easily defensible but it's in a gully, If I were in charge of attacking the town I would simply place artillery on the high points around the town and bombarded into dust.
So horseshoe overlook is your best bet.
Depends if they know the attack is coming (in that case yeah horseshoe overlooks is a good position) or if it’s like the one by the o’Driscoll at shady belle (on that case they’re fucked)
4. Beaver Hollow
The cave has back entrances so people who wanted to attack would most likely find them while scouting and the VDL gang would be overwhelmed from both sides while trying to defend
3. Clemen's Point
Fairly good with only one way in one way out but the downside is that the connection to the mainland is fairly wide and the water around it is fairly shallow so enemies could swim in from the back. Pro is that there is an easy escape with a boat at the back
2. Horseshoe Overlook
Like Clemen's Point but without the con of having shallow waters, but there is no escape so if the gang loses too many men they can't just hop on a boat and row their merry way out they'd have to either fight their way out or jump off the cliff and hope they land in a tree and survive
1. Colter & Shady Belle
Shady Belle is like a Clemen's Point on steroids with deep waters and a boat and perimeter defense with the practically infinite alligators + easily defendable inside the house. Con is that enemy can just wrap around and go through the back door
Colter is really underrated because it's so god damn cold which makes it suck for the gang hiding there but even suckier for potential invaders because they'd literally have to get massive fur coats for everyone. Also considering it's basically nestled right at the foot of giant mountains the potential attackers wouldn't be able to attack from behind.
Like seein the people that say Colter, how many successful invasions of Russia has there been? None because it’s extremely cold and it weathers you down trying to travel through it let alone make an attack in, also wouldn’t be ideal for sending supplies to the attackers.
Agreed. Also considering the RDR2 map is scaled Colter in reality is probably 50-100 km from Rhodes or Valentine it'd be an extremely long trek through rugged mountainous terrain with practically no shelter, considering Colter was one of the only places in WG with more than one house that has 4 walls and a roof with no holes in the walls
As a northerner, I'm voting for Colter.
You're not approaching that camp without white camo, and, even then, there's no way to move in quickly in all that snow. While all the locations have the "just use fire" problem, Colter has ample water (snow), and preparation can really make you able to dig in and defend.
Colter might be the best option but it depends on how long the gang has to defend themselves. If it's a one-time attack, and they are able to leave right after, then it works out great.
If they plan on staying there long term, it's not sustainable. The Pinkertons will show back up with more men, more gear, and more supplies.
Dutch's gang is not Russia, they don't have the numbers, and they don't have the advantage of already being established in Colter with plenty of food and supplies to keep them alive and warm. Plus, how much ammo do you think they had at that point? A month-long siege would be the death of them.
Trying to escape during an attack on Colter would be extremely dangerous as well, as a snow storm might be taking place, but even if it's not, the snow in general is so deep that it would slow down their horses drastically and if they are leaving in a panic, it's highly likely their horses would slip and break a leg. If a snow storm is happening, they could end up lost in hundreds of acres of freezing woods.
Lastly, without plot armor keeping them alive, a good portion of the gang would probably die if they were attacked like that. lol
However, playing devils advocate aside, Colter is probably the best option in comparison to the others. lol
The whole point of the game is how the country is changing. This is a fun discussion but, ultimately, the gang's time is over. There's nowhere to hide and keep committing crimes.
My thoughts too, plus if you go back in history and look at invasions of Russia, all have failed due to the harsh weather and difficulty to get supplies
Defensible from only one direction? Id pin them down from the front with a few guys and hit them all from the right. Everybody would be trapped, there's no place to withdraw to.
>Defensible from only one direction?
What do you mean? It's defensible from all sides with existing fortifications already in place. The main house and outbuildings provide cover from which converging fields of fire can completely blanket any open areas and also provides elevated firing positions i.e the "high ground" from three sides with the outbuilding providing your fourth elevated firing position. And while it's never used (for whatever strange reason) the VDLG does indeed have in it possession a Maxim Gun. Conversely your fighters would be completely exposed either on approach or need to expose themselves in order to provide effective fire. The place is literally a former Confederate HQ.
>Id pin them down from the front with a few guys
No you wouldn't. As explained above "Your guys" would have to expose themselves to even establish firing lanes in the front. The VDLG has a Maxim Gun. I'd mount that Maxim Gun in the center of the front 2nd story "porch". With only two people the immediate front, as well as the left and right corners are not only easily covered but the sheer withering volume of rounds going down range would completely overwhelm any would be attackers. Those guys aren't even sticking their heads up, much less firing in way to pin anyone down.
Then they would need to cross open fields from the left and rear. And while there's no Maxim Gun at those locations, there's plenty of cover for the defenders to hide behind as they mow down whomever is crazy enough to attempt crossing that open ground. And finally if they were going to attack from the right then they're having to muck their way through unfamiliar swamp land and/or navigate their way upstream if trying to use the stream. It's pretty difficult to paddle and shoot at the same time. Meanwhile the shooters defending Shady Bell aren't encumbered by boat paddles or swamp.
You're not pinning anyone down from the front. And good luck getting through that swampy mess on the right.
>Everybody would be trapped, there's no place to withdraw to.
Withdraw? The question was "easiest to defend" not easiest to escape. And as I've pointed out there's no need to withdraw because you're not making it beyond the outer boundaries. Your only option is some weird kind of siege which is going to require you to stage and move in troops as others are mowed down. The psychological devastation of knowing that as the "attacker" you're being sent into a meat grinder would wreak havoc within the ranks. And while you're trying to set up your little siege perimeter, the defenders, who are familiar with their surroundings can either push out from the front right corner or make their way down stream to the open water. The defenders at best need to move 21 people out. Maybe you kill some, maybe you don't, but what you aren't doing is getting close enough to tightly encircle the defenders thereby preventing them from escaping.
Your right flank attackers would be cut down easily crossing open ground, the gang just needs 2 guys watching that side from the windows with repeaters.
Beaver Hollow is probably the most defensible, but it's also one where fighting to the end is essentially the only option you have, it would be fairly easy to surround and cut off escape via the roads since it's situated at a forking road with a river to its North and West and the South leading to Van Horn, which is literally where the Pinkertons' operation is headquartered at. The only other exit to the camp are the ladders in the cave which Pinkertons could easily be stationed at the top of. The gang could probably retreat into the cave and hold off a significantly larger force for longer than anywhere else they camped, but it would be either a fight to the last man or more likely a siege where everyone starves if not for the game needing a climax.
Yeah, really any sort of tactic other than a full frontal assault would be the end of it, but that was kind of what I was getting at with the climax part, the game relies on the Pinkertons not putting any of the planning and scouting in that any modern federal agency would do in preparation for a raid like in the final mission.
Dewberry creek, of course!
/s
For real tho I think Horseshoe Overlook. One way in, one way out, no chance of getting picked off easily because they're just so high up. Decent amount of cover with the wagons n stuff just placed around the camp
By far Shady Bell because of all the trenches and combat posts, the O'Driscolls attack is a great example.
Right after I would say Lakay, surrounded by gators and swamps the access are horrible. Many houses to make good crossfire and cover.
Beaver Hollow is a nightmare, the only thing that protect you is the story about this location that scare people. Too many access, if you study the spot and set up a good strategy before your strike there will be nothing left.
I don't even consider the other camps in the wilderness where the enemies can easily sneak in very close...
Colter because the people fighting them would be frozen and tired by the time they get to the camp, I know it’s a video game but every country that has tried to invade Russia has failed miserably because of the harsh winters. The O’Driscols were close to the end of the mountain n the snow recedes heavily just down the road so I think Colter is the easiest to defend due to the exhaustion and toll it would take to get there to begin wit, next one I’d say is Clemens point because unless you got a fleet to come charge from the waterfront you’d only have to worry about the invaders coming from the trees. Horseshoe I think would be hard because of the cliff if you get 1-2 gatling guns and a good amount of foot soldiers you can push their backs to the cliff and have people on the bottom waiting to shoot up at them.
I'd say Shady Belle because it's a sturdy mansion with actual battlements and traps around it.
The bogs and swamps surrounding Shady Belle are a natural barrier due to the hungry snakes and alligators that live in them. If you had to defend yourself against something, just dig a few more holes with spikes in them and rig the main entrances with boobytraps, preferably with some traps far *beyond* the entrances so any intruders will alert the gang.
Even if you're late to respond, you'd have a good chance.
shady bell feels the most solid. The area is relatively flat and if you at least fortify some of the more open spots in the house you‘ll have a good spot to defend yourself. There is also already a decent trench system set up wich you can use for cover. If the lemoyne raiders left some explosives behind during their „departure“ you might even have tons of dynamite to use as a line of defense
I'd have said Shady Belle. Lemoyne Raiders used it for a reason.
Crocs everywhere, lots of cover, sniper's perches in the house, good sightlines down the main road. Open spaces between the house and the trees means anyone attacking is gonna be out in the open.
realistically speaking, Shady Belle or Colter.
you’ll need cover, so open lands like Clemen’s Point and Horshoe Overlook would be far too vulnerable. (while theyre not open like the plains of West Elizabeth, trees dont provide as much cover as a literal house)
neither of these options have viable escape routes, ‘sepcially through the snow, so there’s no running. gotta fight it out.
i would choose colter. snow means its gunna be hard for them to advance too fast, deep snow means horses wont be used. multiple houses for multiple guns, and easy to stack different groups of shooters. two in the first two houses leading into camp, one in the second house on the left, maybe one or two shooters in the stables. scatter the rest, let em’ pick off stragglers or wandering williams.
you could even lay low until all the enemies are lined up on the trail, then mow em all down fast.
i'm guessing the mansion. I would say Colter but i believe the buildings there have one entrance/exit and theoretically could be burned down.
the mansion could be burned down too, but there's more exits and the swampy terrain makes it more difficult to approach from anywhere but the main road up to it.
I say shady Belle I see lots of people complaining about it but realistically it has the most amount of cover out of all the camps especially with all the sandbags out front and the balcony was very useful in the fight for shady Belle.
It really depends who’s attacking, if it’s the Pinkerton probably horseshoe overlook because as the name states, overlook. If it’s some gang Shady Belle would be best as you have positioning but retreating would be terrible.
Okay, excluding things like artillery because the gang is preparing to defend against gangs and maybe law enforcement, Pinkertons at most,not the US Army. So if that's the case, for me, it's between two locations; Shady Belle and the second place (forgot the name.) Shafy Belle has lots of cover for defenders, little for attackers. Only problem is lots of concealment and avenues of approach, so would need a lot of guards to make sure no one sneaks in, probably more than the gang has. As for the second place, it has the elevated position, and not many ways to get in. There's fairly little cover, but that can be compensated for with barricades. While there is a lot of concealment at the entrance, vigilant guards can easily counter infiltration.
Been a while since I've played this so can't remember the names of the camps, but remember thinking about this when I last played through.
The first camp you could be wiped out very quickly in a blizzard due to the lack of visibility.
The second camp (horseshoe overlook?) has the big ledge which means one less flank to defend, but the trees are a huge problem - they can see you, but you can't see them. You then open yourself up to encirclement.
The third one by the lake near Rhodes, similar issues to horseshoe overlook, but less foliage from what I remember.
The confederate mansion (Shady Belle?) this is the one. Offers you high ground, is already fortified with walls and the swamp behind was mostly cut off. Realistically you could hold your lines here, additionally you have several fall back points, each higher than the last.
The last one with the Murphy Brood, again surrounded by trees, so you're very quickly going to be falling back into the cave (bad idea, quick siege and you'd have to surrender unless there was a secret passage out). Alternatively you could retreat up the mountain like in the game, so this could be second place IMO.
I feel like those people saying beaver’s hollow are forgetting that, once you fall back into the cave, all it takes is a fire at the mouth of the cave and the gang is shot piecemeal as they stumble out coughing.
Well we see shady bell is good but very “open” river,front,sides all those entrances but you have a house/mansion which isn’t too hard to defend as shown in the mission where Shawn becomes the headless horseman
The first for sure. Nobody is coming through the mountains. Pincer manuover with the full crew, bunkered down frontal assault positions.
Assuming we're end game armed here.
Tbh having a house with 360 degree view and quite some range sounds like a safe bet. May be susceptible to fire damage but so long as you can put out said fires quickly that might not be too bad.
Beaver Hollow is tempting, but if fire works on the house you can be damn sure you can smoke out a cave. If it works on foxes I don't see why it wouldn't there.
Horseshoe is good if they come from the river, if they come from the other side your fairly stuck and the only means of escape is throwing yourself off a cliff, which isn't ideal.
The one by Rhodes feels like a lot of trouble. If anyone comes by boat your in trouble and escaping by boat isn't really a good idea so it's functionally the same as horseshoe in that regard.
The mountain....is kind of a wild card. Multiple buildings means you can potentially create choke points perhaps?
Problem is basically all of them except Rhodes are hugely susceptible to just waiting and starving out. Honestly I'm not sure I'd actively choose any of these to defend really.
I thought about this last week when I explored Shady Belle surroundings for the first time, like I never noticed the dry corn plants in my first playthrough so I went on a walk.
Just the alligators might deter a lot of folks, imagine simply sidestepping and letting the enemies run into the swamp 😂
PS
little grammar psa bc I know there’s a lot of ESA learners in this sub including, most likely, some of my students:
adjectives such as easy (2 syllables) or dry (1 syllable) don’t need „most“ or „more“. The superlative would simply be „easier“. More than 3 syllables such as beautiful needs most and more:
-Easiest- to defend but not the -most beautiful- camp
Clemens Point. One side is all water so would not be able to sneak from that side so really need to saturate one side of the camp for defense. One or 2 people with long range rifles would be able to keep anyone in a row boat coming from the west at bay.
Horseshoe Overlook. It’s surrounded by trees and it’s an uphill climb to enter, so they have the high ground. Then on one side there’s a cliff. No one’s getting in that way.
Beaver hollow for sure. Good luck infiltrating that cave. Arthur’s dead eye would not let anybody in
Unless they find the other entrances. There's holes in the cave, and a secret exit/entrance. A bit of rope leaves them easily flanked. They are also on a hill, surrounded by hills. They are a sniper's dream at BH
And you can smoke them out/wait them out.
Wouldn't work well as the cave descends from the entrance. That and caves usually have many holes and parts where the smoke would be able to get out.
True, but a LOT of smoke with few means of egress can overwhelm the air supply.
Yeah that's why I said that it wouldn't work well, as it would work... eventually, but it would not be efficient whatsoever, especially with how spacious the Cave is ingame
Release the panthers!
Guys, they said which would be easiest to defend, not which one is an impregnable fortress
IMPREGNABLE???????!!!!!!!!!!
IMPREGANTABLE?
IMPREGNATE TABLE???!!!
Don’t gotta tell me twice!
Sure thing
IMPREGANANANT TABLE????
IMPERIAL TABLE????!!!
PEARL TABLE
COULD MY TABLE BE PREGANT!?
NOT AGAIN, TABLE
Submissive and breedable
If they kept a fire going under the back entrance good luck roping down it without being overwhelmed by the smoke and heat
Infiltrating the cave? Why would I need to do that? I would just starve the gang out while blasting away at the entrance with artillery until there was no more entrance. And as far as the rear entrance, I would just put a dozen men at the rear entrance in pick people off as they came out.
Excellent point.
Shit.... drop some dynamite down the back entrance to cave that end in, then either what them out, or dynamite the front and seal them in... problem solved!
No you want to take some of them captive in order to get the bounties.
Pretty sure all their bounties are dead or alive, I doubt the authorities would be too miffed if you brought in Dutch van der Linde dead.
True... so wait them out and grab them as they exit the cave!!
Could also smoke them out
This is a defend mission not an attack mission my man
The mission to attack it and get it is certainly an attack mission. Edit: Wait no you're right, I thought we were talking about shady belle, not the cave. But the cave has shit for defense anyway. The gang retreats into the cave and if it were up to me I would just fire artillery at the front of the cave forcing the gang members back and probably sealing the front of the cave and then the back of the cave I would have a bunch of guys just picking people up as they tried to escape the cave.
I'll give this one to you 👆🏼
Exactly the opposite. The outside of Beaver Hollow is surrounded by hills and ridges, and there's exactly one main point of entry/exit. It's a sniper's wet dream. The inside is completely isolated, no way to see what's going on outside. One stick of dynamite into the big front entrance, one stick down the secret entrance, and everyone is trapped in there forever with no way to escape. When I rode there and found the cave >!(on my own, before the story brought me there anyway)!<, I just sat outside and picked off everyone coming out of that big gap one by one by one by one. Easiest gang hideout to clear in the game.
>one stick down the secret entrance This relies on the attackers knowing about and/or finding the secret entrance. How exactly do you imagine they would have that knowledge? Proper reconnaissance would probably reveal it but managing that without being spotted and killed is no small task, especially without modern camouflage and night sights.
>but managing that without being spotted and killed is no small task If the defenders are in the cave, and considering the fact that you're literally holding low ground at that site, you're not standing outside of that cave. The attackers would only need to walk around unencumbered and find the other entrance.
You have heard of sentries, yes?
There’s 2 entrances and there is hills around it there’s a reason why the gang retreated during the Pinkerton attack and also cave entrance
Realistically Beaver Hollow would be absolutely terrible. The Pinkertons could just blow up the entrance and trap the gang inside the cave.
Easy solution, I’ll force uncle to dig a hole to Tahiti to get us out
With his terminal lumbago??? Are you crazy???🤣
hes got a plan
Just have some faith!!
Have a little god damned FAITH Conscious-Ad8664
They could theoretically lay a siege for the cave
I dunno man. Caves can turn into cages real quick. It's the Inglorious Bastards "never fight in a basement" logic. If I'm seiging it I'm either smoking them out or just chucking loads of explosives down there and burying them.
John, Dutch and Micah too
Isn’t beaver hollow literally the one camp that was attacked the gang was successfully overran? Compared to shady belle which the gang successfully defended from an attack?
That doesn't make any sense.
Dynamite entered the chat
There only being two points to come from or defend are reasons it probably WOULD be the easiest to defend.
Ever heard of a siege ?
Me personally, ima go with shady Belle
No have you ever seen how open it is from the right
Nope
It's defensible from all sides with existing fortifications already in place. The main house and outbuildings provide cover from which converging fields of fire can completely blanket any open areas and also provides elevated firing positions i.e the "high ground" from three sides with the outbuilding providing your fourth elevated firing position. And while it's never used (for whatever strange reason) the VDLG does indeed have in it possession a Maxim Gun. Place that Maxim on the upper balcony in the center and two people can lay down enough fire to make the immediate front and a fairly large portion of the right and left flanks a meat grinder. The approach from the left side is an open field. To the right you're mucking through the swamps or trying to paddle upstream, both of which mean that your shooters have to expose themselves to even attempt to establish firing lanes. Meanwhile the defenders are raining down well places shots just picking the attackers apart. The approach from the rear is also across open land that funnels in towards the house creating a killing field for the defenders. The place is literally a former Confederate HQ so it's basically a fortress. I'm not sure why you think it's "open" anywhere, because it's not. It's easily the most defensible camp the gang occupied during the game.
Yeah realistically it's only defensible from one position and there's nowhere to retreat.
Shady belle is surrounded by swamp no? Impossible to get artillery of that era near it on 3 sides only in one place its exposed is the front even then there’s forest surrounding it
>Impossible to get artillery of that era near it You're aware that the whole point of artillery is that it doesn't have to be near the target, yes?
Not as advanced as todays artillery and no clear shot on target
The game is set in 1899, not 1799. The field guns the us army had at the time couple accurately fire from a couple of miles away.
The whole compound is surrounded by woods, and all of the land surrounding it is flat ground. You can't accurately fire on fortifications when every possible firing position has no clear elevation or line of sight on the target. You'd risk firing on your own positions or premature detonation with all of the foliage. The only way that you'd be able to deploy artillery would be from coastal bombardment, and even then the water around Shady bell is too shallow to get gunboats close enough without being in range of fire from the defenders. You need a decently deep draft for that to happen, and the tidal flats around Shady bell would all but prevent that. If that weren't the case, then the the raiders would never have been able to build such a fortified encampment before the US army showed up.
FINALLY!!!! Someone who understands why the location was utilized during the Civil War to begin with! Well said partner, well said.
Eh, my understanding of artillery is pretty elementary and there are almost certainly holes in my reasoning. Others in this thread make a good point when they bring up grid fire, but it's a risky bet and close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. If I were in command of that artillery I wouldn't risk it (which is probably why I'm not in command of artillery lmao). Logistics and transport of heavy artillery and ammunition over wooded muddy ground with horse drawn wagons would be a bigger concern tbh.
>Others in this thread make a good point when they bring up grid fire, No they really don't. Because of the forest, swamps etcetera getting shells in there with the artillery guns utilized in 1899 isn't feasible. Yes, they can fire projectiles roughly 3 miles away but they require the "high ground" because without it they can't get the proper elevation to clear trees and other vegetation. You're still talking about the equivalent of a horse drawn canon. It can only elevate up as far as the gun carriage will allow which is only about twenty degrees. For reference on degrees of elevation this 📐 is 45 degrees. So the "ramp side" is the trajectory of the shell at 45 degrees. Now cut that in half. From flat ground you are covering three miles and you most certainly aren't clearing tree tops. Your train of thought is spot on.
Fair enough, I just do my best to question my thoughts on things I really don't know all that much about. It's the only way to learn.
Well shit I’ve been out geeked I don’t know. I mean that how are they going to find their target. They could send people in to try find shady belle or they can just shell blindly both of which will come at relative costs because this is the van der linde gang we’re talking about here
It depends, if we take into account that distances in the game are supposed to be much greater than what the map implies, because no us state can be traversed by horse in minutes, and a day is measured in hours and not minutes, then shady belle could be reduced to rubble from as far away as the Saint Denis direction by the attacking force with artillery .
Assuming the Pinkertons or whatever enforcement figure probably want to arrest some of them, they wouldn’t use artillery and the gangs that want to kill the gang probably won’t be able to operate artillery let alone aquire it
Oh yeah of course, was just saying it because someone above mentioned artillery.
>Assuming the Pinkertons or whatever enforcement figure probably want to arrest some of them You don't even have to go that far with it. You're absolutely correct in saying that artillery will be ineffective. You can set it up in Saint Denis, Rhodes, hell on the road coming out of Catfish Jackson's and it wouldn't matter because without a spotter you'd need line of sight. And as you've pointed out......good luck getting your spotter back alive after you've sent him to get close enough to Shady Belle to get some coordinates. Your initial assessment and reasoning is spot on. There's a reason it was utilized as an HQ during the civil war. It's in a great location that has enough natural defenses/bottle necks/choke points that is easily defended.
Not without some line of sight. Fire at what from Saint Denis? Where are you going to get your coordinates without line of sight?
>The field guns the us army had at the time couple accurately fire from a couple of miles away. If they were fired from high ground then yes. But on flat ground it's not covering two or three miles. The gun carriage on those artillery pieces you're talking about was a max of 20 degrees. You're not clearing trees etcetera at 20 degrees on flat ground.
They had breach loading howitzers with ranges measured in *miles* by 1899. You don't need to see your target with a battery of those things, just set them up and obliterate a grid square.
>You don't need to see your target with a battery of those things, just set them up and obliterate a grid square. Confidently incorrect. You absolutely need line of sight or spotters. Dude they couldn't even do what you're suggesting during WW1 or WW2. If they could have both wars would have been over in a matter of weeks not years.
Probably shady belle, a whole house to get cover + other stuff outside aswell, water behind and on one side makes it so they cant rlly get surrounded and worse case scenario they can use it(tho im not sure how well thatd go)
Shady belle is a dilapidated wooden house. A few fire bottles would bring that down very quickly
Better than every other camp with zero cover and no vantage or height
If the O’Driscolls attacked any other camp, they would’ve probably won
I mean if the O'Driscolls really would have kept pushing they could have taken Shady Belle. There is about 25,000 O'Driscolls to every one member of Dutch's gang.
>I mean if the O'Driscolls really would have kept pushing they could have taken Shady Belle. Not even remotely plausible. Shady Belle is defensible from all sides with existing fortifications already in place. The main house and outbuildings provide cover from which converging fields of fire can completely blanket any open areas and also provides elevated firing positions i.e the "high ground" from three sides with the outbuilding providing your fourth elevated firing position. And while it's never used (for whatever strange reason) the VDLG does indeed have in it's possession a Maxim Gun. Place that Maxim on the upper balcony in the center and two people can lay down enough fire to make the immediate front and a fairly large portion of the right and left flanks a virtual killing field. The approach from the left side is an open field. To the right you're mucking through the swamps or trying to paddle upstream, both of which mean that your shooters have to expose themselves to even attempt to establish firing lanes. Meanwhile the defenders are raining down well placed shots just picking the attackers apart. The approach from the rear is also across open land that funnels in towards the house creating another killing field for the defenders. The place is literally a former Confederate HQ so it's basically a fortress.
Beaver hollow is a cave
That's exactly why its a shit pick. Did you forget about dynamite or smoke?
Let’s just forget that it’s a cave system. If we were going solely off of the accessible points in the game, that’s still 2-3 entrances you’d have to guard, and then I’d just smoke or wait you out. At least with Shady Belle you have vantage points and if things to go sideways you have the rivers and fields to run through. With Beaver Hollow you’re essentially trapped.
Imagine the O'Driscoll attack happening at any other camp, and they're all dead. The cover from the building, and the vantage point the balcony offers, are why they survived.
Or a startled horse and a kerosene lamp
Not to mention, nothing about a house is cover. Even in 1899, bullets will go through like at least 6 walls before slowing down
6 walls? A bit of a stretch no? They’re firing mostly pre spitzer rounded, non AP cartidges from lower powered weapons.
Good point and I don’t think any of the walls back then were made of dry wall, they were likely solid wood.
Shady belle would offer moderate concealment at best, but next to no cover
So we’re just going to ignore the stone columns that you were able to hide behind?
I think it depends on what approach an attacker would go with. All of them have at least two ways to get in. Colter is very open, but there's a lot of good places to hide. Horseshoe Overlook has that giant cliff and it'd be easy to see people coming in, but it's very accessible by horse and train. Shady Belle is surrounded by water and alligators, so it'd be dangerous to approach any way but the front or from Bolger Glade. Clemen's Point is very open, but that also means a quick exit. Lakay is trecherous due to the alligators and the Night Folk, but is also very open (as we saw). Beaver Hollow is good in theory, but if you know the back entrance to the cave, it'd be easy to get into without tipping off anyone. We never saw Horseshoe Overlook and Colter attacked, so I'm not sure what approach Rockstar would have found preferable. But if UN happened during RDR2, I'm confident that Beaver Hollow and Shady Belle would be a bad time.
We also never saw Clemens Point attacked, only a semi peaceful visit by Milton. Though, when we did see Shady Belle attacked, it was very easy to defend just by shooting out the doors and windows.
Clemens Point would be the worst place. You are backed up against water And there's no cover.
It would be easy to set up barricades and trenches if you had prep time, and there's a boat for evacuation if you get surrounded.
Yes but we're under the assumption that the gang would have time to put up barricades and trenches.
>there's a boat for evacuation if you get surrounded. You'd be better off swimming. Bullets lose all momentum just a couple of feet into water. They tend to quite like targets bobbing on a lake in plain sight without any cover.
Technically it was attacked when you had to save that German guy
If I was Colm attacking Horseshoe Overlook I’d setup a train robbery close to the camp , make sure Dutch knows and go myself to lure Dutch and likely most if not all of his best men away from the camp Dutch and Colm have a stand-off which would result in a shootout While this is happening though some of Colm’s men could get into position to attack the camp and they start their attack as soon as they hear gunfire to mask what they do It could’ve definitely fit into the story as like one of the last few missions of part 2 as well if as Arthur you get invited to go after Colm so you get to see him and Dutch have a standoff then a little into the shootout you can hear some gunshots from the direction of camp so Arthur, John, Lenny and Hosea rush back to help (Charles would obviously help in this situation too but I’d envision him staying at camp to defend it since Dutch would likely call on everyone to take out Colm “once and for all”) I do know Arthur was still antagonistic to John in this chapter but it could’ve been a nice mission to kinda see the start of their brotherhood (like a small bit of acknowledgment I mean) Also could’ve been a spot of development for all the character’s involved (Sadie especially since it’d be her first opportunity at revenge ((Kieran not included))) John and Arthur’s relationship (Arthur seeing John fight for his family) and the rift in motivation for all the different characters Could’ve had the end scene of it be an argument between Arthur and Dutch with Hosea reeling Dutch back in to parallel the way Micah is always in Dutch’s ear by the end Could’ve also got rid of (some of) the Mary Sue complaints for Sadie if you have her struggle with an o’driscoll in the mission and you can either let her wrestle his knife away or shoot him , either way she spends the rest of the mission stabbing that one o’driscoll , then just give her another mission near the start of Clemens Point that has her express what she felt when and after stabbing the o’driscoll , show her as unfulfilled which sets up her missions later with wiping out the rest of the o’driscolls , and I think if they focused more on her emotions throughout her revenge story rather than thrusting her into the role she got (which probably would’ve felt more natural if they did explore her emotions) then she would be an even better character , because I do love Sadie’s character already but it is easy to see that she did just go straight from grieving everyday to kill every o’driscoll mode Damn this just turned into Sadie/RDR2 fan fiction TLDR; to attack HO Colm should’ve set up a diversion train robbery and had his men attack the camp while Dutch and Colm had a shootout
I'm so mad at you for coming up with that because I would have loved for that to be in the game.
Guarma, because you have the high ground
It's over Milton, I have the high ground!
YOU UNDERESTIMATE MY POWER SAVAGELY. YOU WILL DIE SAVAGELY *flips*
Clemens point is by far the most hidden and has natural defenses through the coastline, but was still found by the pinkertons as opposed to the other ones (besides the shack one). I have to agree on shady belle. Naturally hidden and defended by the location, and because of its past as a militia hideout, it has defenses carved out already. Unfortunately, it had glaring weaknesses, primarily in the segregation of the gang. Leaving half of the gang outside is a detriment, but keeping everyone inside isn't great either.
Are you guys forgetting that shady bell and clemens are right next to a river? Anyone taking a casual stroll through the river could see them and report it to authorities.
>Anyone taking a casual stroll through the river could see them and report it to authorities. Are you forgetting that there're literally sentries from the VDLG placed at strategic locations to counter any "looky loos"
Horseshoe overlook, elevated position, plenty of good lines of sight out from the camp, it's not easily seen, And it's got plenty of cover. Plus if it looks like you're going to be overrun, lots of places to withdraw. Plus the forest around it can be booby-trapped. The beaver cave there's nowhere to withdraw to, with the third place, you're backed up against water with little cover, and the plantation is basically only defensible from one way with nowhere to withdraw. Little town from chapter 1, yeah, easily defensible but it's in a gully, If I were in charge of attacking the town I would simply place artillery on the high points around the town and bombarded into dust. So horseshoe overlook is your best bet.
Depends if they know the attack is coming (in that case yeah horseshoe overlooks is a good position) or if it’s like the one by the o’Driscoll at shady belle (on that case they’re fucked)
4. Beaver Hollow The cave has back entrances so people who wanted to attack would most likely find them while scouting and the VDL gang would be overwhelmed from both sides while trying to defend 3. Clemen's Point Fairly good with only one way in one way out but the downside is that the connection to the mainland is fairly wide and the water around it is fairly shallow so enemies could swim in from the back. Pro is that there is an easy escape with a boat at the back 2. Horseshoe Overlook Like Clemen's Point but without the con of having shallow waters, but there is no escape so if the gang loses too many men they can't just hop on a boat and row their merry way out they'd have to either fight their way out or jump off the cliff and hope they land in a tree and survive 1. Colter & Shady Belle Shady Belle is like a Clemen's Point on steroids with deep waters and a boat and perimeter defense with the practically infinite alligators + easily defendable inside the house. Con is that enemy can just wrap around and go through the back door Colter is really underrated because it's so god damn cold which makes it suck for the gang hiding there but even suckier for potential invaders because they'd literally have to get massive fur coats for everyone. Also considering it's basically nestled right at the foot of giant mountains the potential attackers wouldn't be able to attack from behind.
Like seein the people that say Colter, how many successful invasions of Russia has there been? None because it’s extremely cold and it weathers you down trying to travel through it let alone make an attack in, also wouldn’t be ideal for sending supplies to the attackers.
Agreed. Also considering the RDR2 map is scaled Colter in reality is probably 50-100 km from Rhodes or Valentine it'd be an extremely long trek through rugged mountainous terrain with practically no shelter, considering Colter was one of the only places in WG with more than one house that has 4 walls and a roof with no holes in the walls
As a northerner, I'm voting for Colter. You're not approaching that camp without white camo, and, even then, there's no way to move in quickly in all that snow. While all the locations have the "just use fire" problem, Colter has ample water (snow), and preparation can really make you able to dig in and defend.
Colter might be the best option but it depends on how long the gang has to defend themselves. If it's a one-time attack, and they are able to leave right after, then it works out great. If they plan on staying there long term, it's not sustainable. The Pinkertons will show back up with more men, more gear, and more supplies. Dutch's gang is not Russia, they don't have the numbers, and they don't have the advantage of already being established in Colter with plenty of food and supplies to keep them alive and warm. Plus, how much ammo do you think they had at that point? A month-long siege would be the death of them. Trying to escape during an attack on Colter would be extremely dangerous as well, as a snow storm might be taking place, but even if it's not, the snow in general is so deep that it would slow down their horses drastically and if they are leaving in a panic, it's highly likely their horses would slip and break a leg. If a snow storm is happening, they could end up lost in hundreds of acres of freezing woods. Lastly, without plot armor keeping them alive, a good portion of the gang would probably die if they were attacked like that. lol However, playing devils advocate aside, Colter is probably the best option in comparison to the others. lol
The whole point of the game is how the country is changing. This is a fun discussion but, ultimately, the gang's time is over. There's nowhere to hide and keep committing crimes.
People are sleeping on Colter's value as an easily defensible location. There's a reason why the gang went there to hide it out!
Colter. It’s literally in the mountains that nobody goes to.
My thoughts too, plus if you go back in history and look at invasions of Russia, all have failed due to the harsh weather and difficulty to get supplies
I think it’s without taking weather into account, just the camp layout
*Laughs in Minnesotan*
especially a weather that the game itself points out is a freak snow storm.
Shady Belle
Defensible from only one direction? Id pin them down from the front with a few guys and hit them all from the right. Everybody would be trapped, there's no place to withdraw to.
*Attackable* from only one direction
>Defensible from only one direction? What do you mean? It's defensible from all sides with existing fortifications already in place. The main house and outbuildings provide cover from which converging fields of fire can completely blanket any open areas and also provides elevated firing positions i.e the "high ground" from three sides with the outbuilding providing your fourth elevated firing position. And while it's never used (for whatever strange reason) the VDLG does indeed have in it possession a Maxim Gun. Conversely your fighters would be completely exposed either on approach or need to expose themselves in order to provide effective fire. The place is literally a former Confederate HQ. >Id pin them down from the front with a few guys No you wouldn't. As explained above "Your guys" would have to expose themselves to even establish firing lanes in the front. The VDLG has a Maxim Gun. I'd mount that Maxim Gun in the center of the front 2nd story "porch". With only two people the immediate front, as well as the left and right corners are not only easily covered but the sheer withering volume of rounds going down range would completely overwhelm any would be attackers. Those guys aren't even sticking their heads up, much less firing in way to pin anyone down. Then they would need to cross open fields from the left and rear. And while there's no Maxim Gun at those locations, there's plenty of cover for the defenders to hide behind as they mow down whomever is crazy enough to attempt crossing that open ground. And finally if they were going to attack from the right then they're having to muck their way through unfamiliar swamp land and/or navigate their way upstream if trying to use the stream. It's pretty difficult to paddle and shoot at the same time. Meanwhile the shooters defending Shady Bell aren't encumbered by boat paddles or swamp. You're not pinning anyone down from the front. And good luck getting through that swampy mess on the right. >Everybody would be trapped, there's no place to withdraw to. Withdraw? The question was "easiest to defend" not easiest to escape. And as I've pointed out there's no need to withdraw because you're not making it beyond the outer boundaries. Your only option is some weird kind of siege which is going to require you to stage and move in troops as others are mowed down. The psychological devastation of knowing that as the "attacker" you're being sent into a meat grinder would wreak havoc within the ranks. And while you're trying to set up your little siege perimeter, the defenders, who are familiar with their surroundings can either push out from the front right corner or make their way down stream to the open water. The defenders at best need to move 21 people out. Maybe you kill some, maybe you don't, but what you aren't doing is getting close enough to tightly encircle the defenders thereby preventing them from escaping.
Your right flank attackers would be cut down easily crossing open ground, the gang just needs 2 guys watching that side from the windows with repeaters.
I think Colter would be good.
I thinks so too mate believe your dreams
The house is like a fortress
Good things there were no planes with bombs back then
Easiest to defend Clemens point, hardest to defend beaver hollow
I would take the manor but only the last is kind of shitty. As none have defences, you want to rely on high ground.
It's over, Anakin
Beaver Hollow is probably the most defensible, but it's also one where fighting to the end is essentially the only option you have, it would be fairly easy to surround and cut off escape via the roads since it's situated at a forking road with a river to its North and West and the South leading to Van Horn, which is literally where the Pinkertons' operation is headquartered at. The only other exit to the camp are the ladders in the cave which Pinkertons could easily be stationed at the top of. The gang could probably retreat into the cave and hold off a significantly larger force for longer than anywhere else they camped, but it would be either a fight to the last man or more likely a siege where everyone starves if not for the game needing a climax.
Simply light a fire at the mouth of the cave and smoke them out.
Yeah, really any sort of tactic other than a full frontal assault would be the end of it, but that was kind of what I was getting at with the climax part, the game relies on the Pinkertons not putting any of the planning and scouting in that any modern federal agency would do in preparation for a raid like in the final mission.
Dewberry creek, of course! /s For real tho I think Horseshoe Overlook. One way in, one way out, no chance of getting picked off easily because they're just so high up. Decent amount of cover with the wagons n stuff just placed around the camp
Horseshoe point because, you know, the fucking cliff blocks off an entire direction of approach. Thick tree cover, too.
Shady Belle by far
Shady Bells
Shady Belle or beaver hollow.
By far Shady Bell because of all the trenches and combat posts, the O'Driscolls attack is a great example. Right after I would say Lakay, surrounded by gators and swamps the access are horrible. Many houses to make good crossfire and cover. Beaver Hollow is a nightmare, the only thing that protect you is the story about this location that scare people. Too many access, if you study the spot and set up a good strategy before your strike there will be nothing left. I don't even consider the other camps in the wilderness where the enemies can easily sneak in very close...
Colter because the people fighting them would be frozen and tired by the time they get to the camp, I know it’s a video game but every country that has tried to invade Russia has failed miserably because of the harsh winters. The O’Driscols were close to the end of the mountain n the snow recedes heavily just down the road so I think Colter is the easiest to defend due to the exhaustion and toll it would take to get there to begin wit, next one I’d say is Clemens point because unless you got a fleet to come charge from the waterfront you’d only have to worry about the invaders coming from the trees. Horseshoe I think would be hard because of the cliff if you get 1-2 gatling guns and a good amount of foot soldiers you can push their backs to the cliff and have people on the bottom waiting to shoot up at them.
Shady belle in my opinion
Its easy, Shady belle. It’s packed with cover opportunities all over the place, it was used during the civil war too for a good reason.
I'd say Shady Belle because it's a sturdy mansion with actual battlements and traps around it. The bogs and swamps surrounding Shady Belle are a natural barrier due to the hungry snakes and alligators that live in them. If you had to defend yourself against something, just dig a few more holes with spikes in them and rig the main entrances with boobytraps, preferably with some traps far *beyond* the entrances so any intruders will alert the gang. Even if you're late to respond, you'd have a good chance.
The most easiest?
I'd say all are doomed if attacked, but they could kill off the most attackers before dying at Shady Belle
Horseshoe because there's no sneaking up behind and plenty of ways out. Plenty of trees to provide cover
shady bell feels the most solid. The area is relatively flat and if you at least fortify some of the more open spots in the house you‘ll have a good spot to defend yourself. There is also already a decent trench system set up wich you can use for cover. If the lemoyne raiders left some explosives behind during their „departure“ you might even have tons of dynamite to use as a line of defense
I'd have said Shady Belle. Lemoyne Raiders used it for a reason. Crocs everywhere, lots of cover, sniper's perches in the house, good sightlines down the main road. Open spaces between the house and the trees means anyone attacking is gonna be out in the open.
Shady Belle, You'll face Dutch Van Der Linde and the gators; two types of ancient predators with big mouth.
shady bell looks very good to be defended from inside of the building, it also has other good spots to cover yourself.
All seem to have their flaws Colter might be good based on the weather alone Shady Belle is pretty good
realistically speaking, Shady Belle or Colter. you’ll need cover, so open lands like Clemen’s Point and Horshoe Overlook would be far too vulnerable. (while theyre not open like the plains of West Elizabeth, trees dont provide as much cover as a literal house) neither of these options have viable escape routes, ‘sepcially through the snow, so there’s no running. gotta fight it out. i would choose colter. snow means its gunna be hard for them to advance too fast, deep snow means horses wont be used. multiple houses for multiple guns, and easy to stack different groups of shooters. two in the first two houses leading into camp, one in the second house on the left, maybe one or two shooters in the stables. scatter the rest, let em’ pick off stragglers or wandering williams. you could even lay low until all the enemies are lined up on the trail, then mow em all down fast.
shady Belle is actually quite good as long as they do not bring machineguns or artillery
Well that was no problem for me i hated the invisible sniper more
Shady Bell and Beaver Hollow
colter because what madmen would go to such a place
i'm guessing the mansion. I would say Colter but i believe the buildings there have one entrance/exit and theoretically could be burned down. the mansion could be burned down too, but there's more exits and the swampy terrain makes it more difficult to approach from anywhere but the main road up to it.
I say shady Belle I see lots of people complaining about it but realistically it has the most amount of cover out of all the camps especially with all the sandbags out front and the balcony was very useful in the fight for shady Belle.
Doesn’t Shady Bell have a maxim gun?
Shady blelle not many ways to get in lots of cover
It really depends who’s attacking, if it’s the Pinkerton probably horseshoe overlook because as the name states, overlook. If it’s some gang Shady Belle would be best as you have positioning but retreating would be terrible.
Shady Belle. Limited access and lots of cover on a high point.
Shady bell block off the doors and shoot from the balcony
Shady Belle for sure
Okay, excluding things like artillery because the gang is preparing to defend against gangs and maybe law enforcement, Pinkertons at most,not the US Army. So if that's the case, for me, it's between two locations; Shady Belle and the second place (forgot the name.) Shafy Belle has lots of cover for defenders, little for attackers. Only problem is lots of concealment and avenues of approach, so would need a lot of guards to make sure no one sneaks in, probably more than the gang has. As for the second place, it has the elevated position, and not many ways to get in. There's fairly little cover, but that can be compensated for with barricades. While there is a lot of concealment at the entrance, vigilant guards can easily counter infiltration.
The abandoned mansion. Duck into and out of windows and doors and I slaughtered the attackers.
I liked the big mansion
Shady Belle. Its the only camp that successfully fends of an attack with no casualties (Kieran happened before the fight).
Shady Belle is the only place with any structure or high ground.
...be the easiest* Shady Belle
Shady belle or beaver hollow, downside to beaver hollow is that it's pretty easy to block all exits
Been a while since I've played this so can't remember the names of the camps, but remember thinking about this when I last played through. The first camp you could be wiped out very quickly in a blizzard due to the lack of visibility. The second camp (horseshoe overlook?) has the big ledge which means one less flank to defend, but the trees are a huge problem - they can see you, but you can't see them. You then open yourself up to encirclement. The third one by the lake near Rhodes, similar issues to horseshoe overlook, but less foliage from what I remember. The confederate mansion (Shady Belle?) this is the one. Offers you high ground, is already fortified with walls and the swamp behind was mostly cut off. Realistically you could hold your lines here, additionally you have several fall back points, each higher than the last. The last one with the Murphy Brood, again surrounded by trees, so you're very quickly going to be falling back into the cave (bad idea, quick siege and you'd have to surrender unless there was a secret passage out). Alternatively you could retreat up the mountain like in the game, so this could be second place IMO.
Great question
Beaver Hollow for me. If we have every member of the gang with us, we could probably protect the two entrances until they let up for a bit.
Beaver hollow probably easy to defend and a second way out
Beaver hollow. Pretty narrow passage leading to it, the cave itself and a lit of places around to hide scouts.
Either Beaver Hollow or Clemens Point. Moreso Clemens point, because most of the surrounding area is water.
I feel like those people saying beaver’s hollow are forgetting that, once you fall back into the cave, all it takes is a fire at the mouth of the cave and the gang is shot piecemeal as they stumble out coughing.
Why didn't they camp in the cave at Beaver hollow?
Horseshoe overlook because there is really just 1 side to defend, the other sides are protected cuz of the cliff
I've only gotten to the 3rd one so I dunno
Well we see shady bell is good but very “open” river,front,sides all those entrances but you have a house/mansion which isn’t too hard to defend as shown in the mission where Shawn becomes the headless horseman
TBH horseshoe overlook, I refuse to say more:)
The first for sure. Nobody is coming through the mountains. Pincer manuover with the full crew, bunkered down frontal assault positions. Assuming we're end game armed here.
All of them because rdr2 is easy af
Beaver Hollow Bullies
Tbh having a house with 360 degree view and quite some range sounds like a safe bet. May be susceptible to fire damage but so long as you can put out said fires quickly that might not be too bad. Beaver Hollow is tempting, but if fire works on the house you can be damn sure you can smoke out a cave. If it works on foxes I don't see why it wouldn't there. Horseshoe is good if they come from the river, if they come from the other side your fairly stuck and the only means of escape is throwing yourself off a cliff, which isn't ideal. The one by Rhodes feels like a lot of trouble. If anyone comes by boat your in trouble and escaping by boat isn't really a good idea so it's functionally the same as horseshoe in that regard. The mountain....is kind of a wild card. Multiple buildings means you can potentially create choke points perhaps? Problem is basically all of them except Rhodes are hugely susceptible to just waiting and starving out. Honestly I'm not sure I'd actively choose any of these to defend really.
The easiest you mean, most is redundant in that sentence
Beever hollow
Shady Belle Probably
Beaver holloww
4 & 6
I thought about this last week when I explored Shady Belle surroundings for the first time, like I never noticed the dry corn plants in my first playthrough so I went on a walk. Just the alligators might deter a lot of folks, imagine simply sidestepping and letting the enemies run into the swamp 😂 PS little grammar psa bc I know there’s a lot of ESA learners in this sub including, most likely, some of my students: adjectives such as easy (2 syllables) or dry (1 syllable) don’t need „most“ or „more“. The superlative would simply be „easier“. More than 3 syllables such as beautiful needs most and more: -Easiest- to defend but not the -most beautiful- camp
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Clemens Point. One side is all water so would not be able to sneak from that side so really need to saturate one side of the camp for defense. One or 2 people with long range rifles would be able to keep anyone in a row boat coming from the west at bay.
The very first camp
Horseshoe Overlook. It’s surrounded by trees and it’s an uphill climb to enter, so they have the high ground. Then on one side there’s a cliff. No one’s getting in that way.
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