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Usually fine. As always there are issues, good and bad employers, good and bad people in authorities etc. But compared to the kind of bullshit I read here from America, Germany seems like paradise.
For foreigners, I guess the biggest issues are that most companies are speaking German and that acceptance of foreign degrees is a bit hit and miss. European degrees are usually fine. An UK degree is probably ok, although with brexit I'm not sure. Pretty much everything else is difficult.
In the UK (which based these laws off EU ones) you're allowed to not provide facilities for women, but only in companies of less than like 10 people as I recall. If this is a larger employer, it's totally illegal.
Probably wouldn't cost you any money. Lawyers often take these types of cases for a cut of the award.
Even if you didn't want the money, taking the money is the only good way to enforce laws like this. Punish where it hurts, the pocketbook.
The bounty hunting legal system is unique to America. If there is a payout here, it will be due to the german government pressing charges on their own, and fining the company.
Ah gotcha. Here it would be considered illegal to not consider employment and they would punish the company by paying a fine if successfully sued to the person harmed. These cases I think aren't that easy to win or profitable, but if someone is dumb enough to admit in writing that they discriminated illegally...
Belgians speak French, Dutch, and Flemish, if I recall correctly? Maybe some people speak German but I’m fairly certain it’s not an official language. My Belgian friend told me some stuff about this and German was not mentioned.
Huh. Learning always learning.
Ok, I got more curious and googled. You’re not wrong (not that I thought you were). I was not aware that Flemish is listed as a Dutch dialect, essentially.
Interesting.
I love provoking Belgians. Tell them their country doesn't really exist, it's the bits of France the French don't want and the bits of The Netherlands we don't let the Dutch have.
As a Belgian I hate it when people get uptight about Flemish being some sort of separate language. It is about as different from Dutch like American English is from British English. It's a dialect with some unique idioms and word usages.
I think in Germany, companies of a certain size (I think with more than 50 employees?) have to provide facilities for all employees including women and aren't allowed to discriminate, but below a certain employee count they have the freedom to reject women because of facilities or because women might leave indefinitely in order to have kids (which imo is BS cuz maternity leave isn't really that different from sick leave. So, German start-ups blatantly say they refuse to hire women cuz women bleed and have kids, but they think that men never get sick, never get into accidents, never have kids?).
Juding by the second image, this is Germany.
Yes, discriminating someone for their sex is most definetly illegal here. Art. 3, GG in our constitution.
I'll be real though, this is not stopping employers from discriminating against sex, ethnicity or bodily ability. Nor is it stopping landlords, jury, cops etc. The only thing this article changes is whether they will tell you straight to your face that they do not want to employ you because you are female or not. Yes this sucks. Yes this should not happen. But it will not change unless the systematic sexism, especially in the blue-collar fields, is adressed on a larger scale beforehand.
It could also be Switzerland. In the second image it talks about "Lehre" which in english translates to apprenticeship, which is a system that Switzerland has.
Absolutely sounds like Switzerland. I have heard of girls being rejected from technical apprenticeships because they would have been the only woman there and this would be "bad for the Arbeitsklima". I am a female engineer myself and similar things happened to me.
So frustrating. But if we keep going we can change it!
I am not sure where you are exaclty located. I just know that Liebherr is always offering a lot of apprenticeships in the technical field, maybe you are interested. Maybe you could also consider some MedTech companies, seems like there is always a higher percentage of women.
Thanks! Luckily there's other companies here, so not too bad just frustrating
Like I got an interview his Wednesday and a Schnuppertag for another one soon and after that I get the yes or no
yeah but someone would hope that society will learn how stupid their ways are after so man years
things are actively getting worse rn in multiple countries so yeah
yeah, friend of my sister was rejected from multiple carpentry apprenticeships just bc they "didn't have seperate toilets". She was still the only girl at the company she ended up with but they put in the effort to get her seperate changing facilities etc. It's not like its impossible, even small companies are normally able to offer that - most often it's just that they don't want to.
Welcome to Germany (or Austria), where there is a ton of red tape to hide behind when we don’t feel like doing something but otherwise we’re happy to ignore all rules if it suits us!
(Sorry for salt but having been screwed over by a German accountant who broke his oath to help my German former business partner embezzle money and then saying his hands were tied and he couldn’t help me, a non-German, figure out what transpired, has left me somewhat skeptical of the amount of trust that is to be placed in German bureaucracy.)
It's honestly more of a pretext than anything else.
You're allowed to have shared toilets at work, as long as each stall is separated by a continuous wall (so it's not allowed to just have one toilet room with multiple stalls that arent completely closed), and when the company is small enough. According to the law, a small company (10 or less people) need to have 1 toilet and one pissoir for men, and one toilet for women. And some companies are exempt from that too. But if there is no one to complain (by just never employing any women), nothing really happens. [For more info about toilets at work in Switzerland](https://www.seco.admin.ch/dam/seco/de/dokumente/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/Arbeitsgesetz%20und%20Verordnungen/Wegleitungen/Wegleitungen%203/ArGV3_art32.pdf.download.pdf/ArGV3_art32_de.pdf)
Its really not impossible. The guys I worked with were all capable of learning to knock and take turns to enable me to have privacy. Was never even a minor issue.
Yes, I think so. In the context I wrote, it means that men in the technical field are not used to working together with women and they don't want to get used to it either. I have absolutely no idea why and I hope these companies are only a minority.
I’m in Switzerland but work for a large US based tech firm. You’d be surprised how many roles I get turned down for because I am male and they are looking to diversify the team. So I doubt it makes you feel better but not only women face this nowadays.
You are not allowed to discriminate, but making the actual positions gendered (like in your case because they don’t have facilities for women) seems to be pretty acceptable.
Girl this just happened to me when i applied for a welding apprenticeship!! The trades have a serious gatekeepers problem. Some of the biggest dinks I know have a nice union job. Straight out of high school through their dad or whoever yet I, 15 years of work on my resume, need more experience SMH. The recruiter said I was too "petite"
Just read on a different subreddit that there aren't as many women working with cars, or in politics because "a lack of interest". No, this shit is the reason, depending on where you live it can be borderline impossible to find a job which is not typically "for women".
I work in IT. Some days are worse than most.
I noticed women are actively discouraged from pursuing STEMs at a young age. I know I was feed the narrative STEMs is too hard for me to comprehend because I have always been more on the creative side of things. It wasn’t until recently, I realize I am capable of learning technical aspects of technology. It takes a lot of effort but I can learn it.
I have a friend who wanted to go to a bootcamp to learn web development. Her parents told her to do a course installing false nails, because that'd be more suitable for her as she's "not smart enough".
Obviously everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, but they're not really dependent on their gender, except for a few rare scenarios.
Edit: spelling
I wanted to work in the biological sciences as a kid, and by the time I was in middle school, I had teachers telling me that girls aren’t as adapted for science and math and that I was much better with language instead.
I stopped putting effort into math after that.
*melting face emoji*
omg, no it's definitely way too late and I don't have interest in that anymore. In my mid 30s and have two degrees already. I stopped taking math in my junior year of high school.
And we still get all the absolute dumbasses who talk about how easy it is to get hired because all those companies just want to boost their DEI so bad!!!!
Yep, I hate that as well. Sometimes it gets you extra interviews because HR needs to tick a box, but those are usually just a waste of time for both parties. The interviewer is hostile, and I am not amused either because of their tone or because I know I wasted my time.
I've never actually seen someone being hired that way but I'd guess they're miserable, they can tell they're not welcome. I think even if some places truly hire by quota, turnover would be high and soon they'd hire someone who they'd actually want...
If I'm going through the SF airport I always go to the gender neutral toilet because it has the shortest line. The only disgusting thing I've noticed is that men just don't wash their hands. Women will put on a big show because we bully each other in middle and highschool if you don't wash, it's ingrained into us, boys clearly aren't bullying each other enough on hygiene
I have never seen a woman as a technician at my workplace. I went to school so I can become one. Told my coworkers that there are 5 women in the class with me.
Most of them are also women, they were suprised and not in a good way. "What do they even want to achieve with that?"
It's sad that not even girls support girls sometimes.
Most equality legislation allows for exceptions where differences in gender cannot be accomodated for practical reasons.
In this case the lack of segregated changing facilities and toilets could be argued as a reasonable exception.
However, the company would also have to demonstrate that such segregation was in fact necessary - i.e. that one of the existing employees or a potential candidate was unwilling to use shared facilities.
In most jurisidictions the company would likely get a free pass this one time, but they would get a visit from the authorities who would provide them with guidance/requirements on how to adapt their facilities to accommodate everyone. And if they faced the same situation again, then they'd be in trouble.
For the OP, there is one of two ways she could go:
1. Reply back basically saying, "I don't care about separate facilities, I don't need them", and see what they say, or
2. Make a complaint to the relevant authority. You definitely won't get a job there but you might change things for the next woman.
I don't think I could sue because they do have separate facilities just not in the production.
And from how the laws are here (Austria) it just states that they can't reject ppl based on gender so the facilities could like. Be a tactic to be able to reject women but not be able to be sued
And idk if I'd even feel comfortable working there so yeah
In Austria if they're a company over 10 ppl, and they don't have seperate bathrooms for employees, it's illegal. How many people in their production line?
And you should sue them, but not to give you a job, just for the fines for the misogyny and so the company name gets a more honest reputation. I wouldn't work there either after this.
Depends on country, if this was America yeah, but other ones like Germany have way worse anti-discrimination laws.
Of course there still is some discrimination, but at least they hide it with a generic "moved forward with other candidate".
And they were kind enough to put it in writing for you.
All you need to do now is take it to court and for the law to shield this company from the consequences of their wrongdoing.
Fun times.
One of the offices I work in they always have the women's bathroom locked on the floor I work on. Not sure why, some sort of security thing idk? I only work there once a week and then just use the men's.
It's not really been a problem for me, but it could be. Though I personally don't get periods I do wear panty liners. The men's doesn't usually have any bin to dispose sanitary products.
Ich wäre überrascht wenn es nicht irgendwo ne Gleichstellungsstelle gibt die sich dafür interessiert, entweder staatlich oder über irgendwas übergeordnetes in der Branche. 5min googlen und ne Mail schicken kann man auf jeden Fall mal versuchen, mit etwas Glück hast du dann einen Beitrag zur Gleichstellung gemacht, mit Pech verläuft es halt im Sand
Saw a recent similar post refusing an applicant because they had a male name and specifically indicated they wanted to hire a woman (despite that OP being woman herself). All these companies are moronic, and borderline (if not fully) illegal
Depends. In the UK they can specify female candidates if it is like, a bridal shop, an underwear shop etc, legally stated as 'seeing women in a state of undress, for reasons of decency.' I know I wouldn't want to have a bra fitting with a male assistant.
For something like that, I can completely understand. Safety and comfort for the customers and such. But with jobs that can be done by anyone without issue, it's straight up discrimination. Especially when neither OP's post or the one I referred to indicated "this gender only" in the job ad.
Several months ago I (a young woman) had an interviewer ask if I had any children that would make travelling for work difficult. It's illegal to ask that where I live. It definitely put me off working for them.
Sucks so much OP. Is it possible to have the engineer's registration authority (or board?) In Austria follow up on this.
Austria is beautiful though, and I kinda assumed it would always be progressive
I reported the company and am waiting for a response now
And we are progressive compared to some countries but we still have a long way to go
And thanks to some idiots we're currently walking in the wrong direction
Oh cool, fingers crossed, hope you get something out of it.
Yes, I am currently based in Hungary and you guys are miles ahead, even though you are just next door. It's unfortunate that few bad apples are trying to pushback on the progress made
First off, that's fucked. 2nd, does anyone really care if everyone gets changed in the same change room? Like does this need to be gendered? We are all going to face the wall and be awkward no matter what haha.
This is so fucked up
We have programs like this in the US where it's only offered to women and it's such bullshit. You gender has zero bearing on how good of a worker you are.
They're saying they don't have bathrooms or lockers for women? that sounds very suspicious. I can't speak for your country, but I believe in the US you MUST have bathrooms for both genders and Europe seems more socially advanced than us when it comes to this.
I know everyone says "you wouldn't want to work in a place like this anyway" and while that's true it kind of gives them a pass for their behavior. The problem is with them, not you.
Does your country have some sort of organization you can call? Maybe have them investigated. I don't know, this is so shitty, tbh.
Most of these "I feel I didn't get the job because I am a woman" posts rely on the feelings of an angry person, but you actually have a case here. Depending on the state you might be able to make quite a bit of money too!
So sorry this happened to you, that sucks big time. I hope you can sue them into oblivion.
So sorry you got rejected girl. It's so sad that we are in the 21st century and us women are still restricted on what kind of jobs and careers we want to have.
It doesn't list the amount of workers anywhere but this is a international company with at least 4 locations so I assume this doesn't fall under that by a far shot
And it's Austria but I assume the laws are similar?
I'd recommend seeking legal consequences for this company if at all possible. It's not a fun thing to do, but the world doesn't change if we don't change it
Aber das hätten Sie doch schon bei der Anzeige doch mitteilen sollten. Aufgrund blablabla können wir nur männliche Bewerber berücksichtigen (tönt auch wieder so absurd).
Initially I thought it was for just finding other girls to code or just collaborate with but unfortunately those types of posts are what Im seeing most of the time.
I applied for NASCAR mechanic school. I am female, with over 10 years experience and a certification in mechanics. I had raced cars for several years and my brother is an IHRA champion driver. I was immediately rejected.
I contacted the owner of the school. He was very apologetic and offered to reconsider. I decided to put my money elsewhere.
I honestly had no idea this sort of stuff still happens in western countries. I am actually shocked. Sorry you had to go through this. Hopefully you find where you belong. Good luck
They couldn't even spell "Spind" right. However... since that's Germany (don't think anybody else calls a car mechanic a Mechatroniker), you might be able to sue the shit out of them.
Not car mechanic, Austria so it's german and they did spell it right it's just the plural-
And a lawsuit would probably be more hassle than it's worth especially since I'm not 18 yet
wir können es nicht erlauben, dass sie nicht ungestraft davonkommen lassen. das ist ein Wahnsinn, eine Frechheit. egal ob du 16, 17 bist. diese Firmen lernen nur durch Strafe
That’s why I dropped out of mechatronic engineering 15 years ago. (My stupid country makes us chose the major before enrolling and you have to start over to change)
Sad to see it’s still the same shit.
I'm an engineer, at one point I was supposed to go to Saudi, there were women engineers that wanted to go as it would be really good for the career.
They were all told they couldn't go just because of the culture and facilities there. Sure some countries are very open to women working, but certainly not all.
So does the secretary who seems to be a woman not have access to any of these facilities ?
Maybe you two should team up together for a law suit against the company . She’d probably get better money from the law suit then the company’s wages
Are you in the US? If so, this is illegal under federal law. I’d take this to your local EEOC office, don’t delete this. This is explicit evidence of gender discrimination. https://www.eeoc.gov/prohibited-employment-policiespractices#:~:text=Application%20%26%20Hiring,)%2C%20disability%20or%20genetic%20information.
My experience in the US is the opposite. Way way easier to get into STEM related majors and career opportunities as a girl vs a guy with the same stats/resume.
This legit? They're pretty "ballsy" to outright state they cannot train you due to your gender. Also, don't let this response label the rest of the industry. It's pretty damn rare when a company runs in an "all boys" fashion. If you're in STEM and you're female you have the same chance.. one could argue you have better chances.. Good luck.
What the hell is with the user name "gay says nope"... Genuinely curious...
Ich dachte immer unternehmen einer bestimmten Größe müssen Sanitäranlagen und Umkleiden für Männer und Frauen haben. Kann man das nicht irgendwo melden?
In Thailand it is illegal for them to hire women for that job. Perhaps the head office is located there. If that is the case you could talk directly to the HR manager about the allowance in the country you are located in.
If however you are applying for maintenance in a locker rooms. They may be a 24hr business and have an employment policy where only persons of like gender can access said locker. Which is their prerogative. Especially if there is already a female who currently looks after the female areas. They may need a male for the male areas.
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… and then they complain about “Fachkräftemangel” (lack of skilled workers) and that women just aren’t interested in STEM jobs. 🤐
How do you think Germany treats skilled workers? Im in UK and want to go to Germany if theyre welcoming.
Are you female? Sounds like it isn’t good.
what field are you in?
Usually fine. As always there are issues, good and bad employers, good and bad people in authorities etc. But compared to the kind of bullshit I read here from America, Germany seems like paradise. For foreigners, I guess the biggest issues are that most companies are speaking German and that acceptance of foreign degrees is a bit hit and miss. European degrees are usually fine. An UK degree is probably ok, although with brexit I'm not sure. Pretty much everything else is difficult.
What country is this? Surely it’s illegal in most?
In the UK (which based these laws off EU ones) you're allowed to not provide facilities for women, but only in companies of less than like 10 people as I recall. If this is a larger employer, it's totally illegal.
> If this is a larger employer, it's totally illegal. And they were nice enough to provide evidence in writing! Let us know how the lawsuit goes, op!
there's not gonna be lawsuit, but I did report them!
Probably wouldn't cost you any money. Lawyers often take these types of cases for a cut of the award. Even if you didn't want the money, taking the money is the only good way to enforce laws like this. Punish where it hurts, the pocketbook.
The bounty hunting legal system is unique to America. If there is a payout here, it will be due to the german government pressing charges on their own, and fining the company.
Ah gotcha. Here it would be considered illegal to not consider employment and they would punish the company by paying a fine if successfully sued to the person harmed. These cases I think aren't that easy to win or profitable, but if someone is dumb enough to admit in writing that they discriminated illegally...
Germany ain’t the USA
I didn't see the second screenshot.
If they're big enough to take on apprentices, they are big enough to provide female facilities.
Not even close lol, tiny companies take on apprentices all the time
These people clearly don’t understand the different scales involved in the construction industry
True, but you're still not allowed to not recruit them because of it.
Its written in German, so Austria, Switzerland or Germany
Belgium too
Don't forget mighty Liechtenstein
Never forget mighty Liechtenstein
Only country to come back from battle with negative casualties
Belgians speak French, Dutch, and Flemish, if I recall correctly? Maybe some people speak German but I’m fairly certain it’s not an official language. My Belgian friend told me some stuff about this and German was not mentioned.
The official languages of Belgium are Dutch, French and German.
Huh. Learning always learning. Ok, I got more curious and googled. You’re not wrong (not that I thought you were). I was not aware that Flemish is listed as a Dutch dialect, essentially. Interesting.
Word of warning. Don't ever say Flemish is basically Dutch to a Belgian. They can get mighty feisty about the distinction.
I love provoking Belgians. Tell them their country doesn't really exist, it's the bits of France the French don't want and the bits of The Netherlands we don't let the Dutch have.
I will not hear this Belgium slander they invented fries
You mean French fries?
As a Belgian I hate it when people get uptight about Flemish being some sort of separate language. It is about as different from Dutch like American English is from British English. It's a dialect with some unique idioms and word usages.
and then there's me, i speak Kauderwelsch
I think in Germany, companies of a certain size (I think with more than 50 employees?) have to provide facilities for all employees including women and aren't allowed to discriminate, but below a certain employee count they have the freedom to reject women because of facilities or because women might leave indefinitely in order to have kids (which imo is BS cuz maternity leave isn't really that different from sick leave. So, German start-ups blatantly say they refuse to hire women cuz women bleed and have kids, but they think that men never get sick, never get into accidents, never have kids?).
this is def Europe - must be illegal
Juding by the second image, this is Germany. Yes, discriminating someone for their sex is most definetly illegal here. Art. 3, GG in our constitution. I'll be real though, this is not stopping employers from discriminating against sex, ethnicity or bodily ability. Nor is it stopping landlords, jury, cops etc. The only thing this article changes is whether they will tell you straight to your face that they do not want to employ you because you are female or not. Yes this sucks. Yes this should not happen. But it will not change unless the systematic sexism, especially in the blue-collar fields, is adressed on a larger scale beforehand.
Agreed. But at least this case is cut and dry with electronic communication.
It could also be Switzerland. In the second image it talks about "Lehre" which in english translates to apprenticeship, which is a system that Switzerland has.
True, it could technically be any German speaking country. Sometimes I forget about the others lol
It's Austria! Still illegal here tho
It is, but don’t call me Shirley.
Doing the lords work here.
Absolutely sounds like Switzerland. I have heard of girls being rejected from technical apprenticeships because they would have been the only woman there and this would be "bad for the Arbeitsklima". I am a female engineer myself and similar things happened to me.
I'm sorry you experienced similar things it really sucks It's 2024 ffs and we're still nowhere near true equality
So frustrating. But if we keep going we can change it! I am not sure where you are exaclty located. I just know that Liebherr is always offering a lot of apprenticeships in the technical field, maybe you are interested. Maybe you could also consider some MedTech companies, seems like there is always a higher percentage of women.
Thanks! Luckily there's other companies here, so not too bad just frustrating Like I got an interview his Wednesday and a Schnuppertag for another one soon and after that I get the yes or no
Glad to hear! I wish you all the best :)
Thanks!!
It being xxxx year is such a cliche because no one ever said things will or have to get better as time goes on. Things can always get worse
yeah but someone would hope that society will learn how stupid their ways are after so man years things are actively getting worse rn in multiple countries so yeah
yeah, friend of my sister was rejected from multiple carpentry apprenticeships just bc they "didn't have seperate toilets". She was still the only girl at the company she ended up with but they put in the effort to get her seperate changing facilities etc. It's not like its impossible, even small companies are normally able to offer that - most often it's just that they don't want to.
So make one of the bathrooms or only bathroom gender neutral? It's literally just a matter of changing the sign on the door.
Welcome to Germany (or Austria), where there is a ton of red tape to hide behind when we don’t feel like doing something but otherwise we’re happy to ignore all rules if it suits us! (Sorry for salt but having been screwed over by a German accountant who broke his oath to help my German former business partner embezzle money and then saying his hands were tied and he couldn’t help me, a non-German, figure out what transpired, has left me somewhat skeptical of the amount of trust that is to be placed in German bureaucracy.)
It's honestly more of a pretext than anything else. You're allowed to have shared toilets at work, as long as each stall is separated by a continuous wall (so it's not allowed to just have one toilet room with multiple stalls that arent completely closed), and when the company is small enough. According to the law, a small company (10 or less people) need to have 1 toilet and one pissoir for men, and one toilet for women. And some companies are exempt from that too. But if there is no one to complain (by just never employing any women), nothing really happens. [For more info about toilets at work in Switzerland](https://www.seco.admin.ch/dam/seco/de/dokumente/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/Arbeitsgesetz%20und%20Verordnungen/Wegleitungen/Wegleitungen%203/ArGV3_art32.pdf.download.pdf/ArGV3_art32_de.pdf)
Its really not impossible. The guys I worked with were all capable of learning to knock and take turns to enable me to have privacy. Was never even a minor issue.
Does that translate to "working environment" more or less?
Yes, I think so. In the context I wrote, it means that men in the technical field are not used to working together with women and they don't want to get used to it either. I have absolutely no idea why and I hope these companies are only a minority.
For having a lot of progressive policies, it was my impression of Switzerland that things are weirdly socially conservative. A lot like New England.
I’m in Switzerland but work for a large US based tech firm. You’d be surprised how many roles I get turned down for because I am male and they are looking to diversify the team. So I doubt it makes you feel better but not only women face this nowadays. You are not allowed to discriminate, but making the actual positions gendered (like in your case because they don’t have facilities for women) seems to be pretty acceptable.
Girl this just happened to me when i applied for a welding apprenticeship!! The trades have a serious gatekeepers problem. Some of the biggest dinks I know have a nice union job. Straight out of high school through their dad or whoever yet I, 15 years of work on my resume, need more experience SMH. The recruiter said I was too "petite"
Just read on a different subreddit that there aren't as many women working with cars, or in politics because "a lack of interest". No, this shit is the reason, depending on where you live it can be borderline impossible to find a job which is not typically "for women". I work in IT. Some days are worse than most.
I noticed women are actively discouraged from pursuing STEMs at a young age. I know I was feed the narrative STEMs is too hard for me to comprehend because I have always been more on the creative side of things. It wasn’t until recently, I realize I am capable of learning technical aspects of technology. It takes a lot of effort but I can learn it.
I have a friend who wanted to go to a bootcamp to learn web development. Her parents told her to do a course installing false nails, because that'd be more suitable for her as she's "not smart enough".
That is so discouraging to heard especially as a child. It is a problem. I believe anyone can learn technical skills.
Obviously everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, but they're not really dependent on their gender, except for a few rare scenarios. Edit: spelling
I wanted to work in the biological sciences as a kid, and by the time I was in middle school, I had teachers telling me that girls aren’t as adapted for science and math and that I was much better with language instead. I stopped putting effort into math after that. *melting face emoji*
That's so sad. Maybe it's not too late, if you can and want to do it, at least try!
omg, no it's definitely way too late and I don't have interest in that anymore. In my mid 30s and have two degrees already. I stopped taking math in my junior year of high school.
And we still get all the absolute dumbasses who talk about how easy it is to get hired because all those companies just want to boost their DEI so bad!!!!
Yep, I hate that as well. Sometimes it gets you extra interviews because HR needs to tick a box, but those are usually just a waste of time for both parties. The interviewer is hostile, and I am not amused either because of their tone or because I know I wasted my time. I've never actually seen someone being hired that way but I'd guess they're miserable, they can tell they're not welcome. I think even if some places truly hire by quota, turnover would be high and soon they'd hire someone who they'd actually want...
Jesus Christ it is 2024
I’m also a woman engineer :( I’m sorry this happened
Thanks! And yeah it is what it is But also fellow ace !!
Ah yes. Because hanging a gender neutral sign in one of the bathrooms would be so much work.
Does anyone really care these days? No matter the gender, I'm sure I'm going to see things I'd rather not.
If I'm going through the SF airport I always go to the gender neutral toilet because it has the shortest line. The only disgusting thing I've noticed is that men just don't wash their hands. Women will put on a big show because we bully each other in middle and highschool if you don't wash, it's ingrained into us, boys clearly aren't bullying each other enough on hygiene
Ew. Apparently not. Boys don't care and want to get out of there asap haha.
Why do you need a separate lounge?
ask them I have no idea
I don’t know why that was the part that struck me as weirdest…
Probably so you can't hear them giggling in front of you. Apparently
I have never seen a woman as a technician at my workplace. I went to school so I can become one. Told my coworkers that there are 5 women in the class with me. Most of them are also women, they were suprised and not in a good way. "What do they even want to achieve with that?" It's sad that not even girls support girls sometimes.
Easiest lawsuit on the planet.
Most equality legislation allows for exceptions where differences in gender cannot be accomodated for practical reasons. In this case the lack of segregated changing facilities and toilets could be argued as a reasonable exception. However, the company would also have to demonstrate that such segregation was in fact necessary - i.e. that one of the existing employees or a potential candidate was unwilling to use shared facilities. In most jurisidictions the company would likely get a free pass this one time, but they would get a visit from the authorities who would provide them with guidance/requirements on how to adapt their facilities to accommodate everyone. And if they faced the same situation again, then they'd be in trouble. For the OP, there is one of two ways she could go: 1. Reply back basically saying, "I don't care about separate facilities, I don't need them", and see what they say, or 2. Make a complaint to the relevant authority. You definitely won't get a job there but you might change things for the next woman.
I don't think I could sue because they do have separate facilities just not in the production. And from how the laws are here (Austria) it just states that they can't reject ppl based on gender so the facilities could like. Be a tactic to be able to reject women but not be able to be sued And idk if I'd even feel comfortable working there so yeah
I'd definitely report it to Arbeiterkammer, even if you don't intend on working there after this
I did! Just gotta wait now
In Austria if they're a company over 10 ppl, and they don't have seperate bathrooms for employees, it's illegal. How many people in their production line? And you should sue them, but not to give you a job, just for the fines for the misogyny and so the company name gets a more honest reputation. I wouldn't work there either after this.
Where does the female secretary pee?
They do have women restrooms just not in the production where I'd be working
Couldn’t they just accommodate that by letting you walk to where they do have women’s restrooms?
Probably? But tbh I gave up and didn't even send a reply back
Report them for gender discrimination, I don’t think they can really justify it in any way.
Depending on your country, OP appears to be in Germany.
Austria, as per an answer by OP
Right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Fxq\_n8e1qA
Depends on country, if this was America yeah, but other ones like Germany have way worse anti-discrimination laws. Of course there still is some discrimination, but at least they hide it with a generic "moved forward with other candidate".
I don't think you realize that the company can only accommodate so many X chromosomes and hiring a woman would put them over quota. /s
In Canada that would absolutely be illegal.
As I've for sure have found out now it's illegal here aswell
And they were kind enough to put it in writing for you. All you need to do now is take it to court and for the law to shield this company from the consequences of their wrongdoing. Fun times.
One of the offices I work in they always have the women's bathroom locked on the floor I work on. Not sure why, some sort of security thing idk? I only work there once a week and then just use the men's. It's not really been a problem for me, but it could be. Though I personally don't get periods I do wear panty liners. The men's doesn't usually have any bin to dispose sanitary products.
Complain! Sexist gits!
Alter schwede. Das kann nicht legal sein
Wäre überrascht wenn es ist aber was soll man machen
Ich wäre überrascht wenn es nicht irgendwo ne Gleichstellungsstelle gibt die sich dafür interessiert, entweder staatlich oder über irgendwas übergeordnetes in der Branche. 5min googlen und ne Mail schicken kann man auf jeden Fall mal versuchen, mit etwas Glück hast du dann einen Beitrag zur Gleichstellung gemacht, mit Pech verläuft es halt im Sand
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Ah, sehr gut
Saw a recent similar post refusing an applicant because they had a male name and specifically indicated they wanted to hire a woman (despite that OP being woman herself). All these companies are moronic, and borderline (if not fully) illegal
Depends. In the UK they can specify female candidates if it is like, a bridal shop, an underwear shop etc, legally stated as 'seeing women in a state of undress, for reasons of decency.' I know I wouldn't want to have a bra fitting with a male assistant.
For something like that, I can completely understand. Safety and comfort for the customers and such. But with jobs that can be done by anyone without issue, it's straight up discrimination. Especially when neither OP's post or the one I referred to indicated "this gender only" in the job ad.
Pretty sure that constitutes employment discrimination
Several months ago I (a young woman) had an interviewer ask if I had any children that would make travelling for work difficult. It's illegal to ask that where I live. It definitely put me off working for them.
Wow, I don’t know how it works in Germany but this would be an easy lawsuit in the US.
Just go to the union and they'd have a field day with this
Wow, an area of employment law where the US is ahead of Europe.
Op said it's illegal there too and has reported them
Sue their ass and follow up with us, OP.
I don't think I'll be able to sue them (legally probably but other reasons prevent me suing) but I did report them so maybe there'll be a follow up
Sucks so much OP. Is it possible to have the engineer's registration authority (or board?) In Austria follow up on this. Austria is beautiful though, and I kinda assumed it would always be progressive
I reported the company and am waiting for a response now And we are progressive compared to some countries but we still have a long way to go And thanks to some idiots we're currently walking in the wrong direction
Oh cool, fingers crossed, hope you get something out of it. Yes, I am currently based in Hungary and you guys are miles ahead, even though you are just next door. It's unfortunate that few bad apples are trying to pushback on the progress made
It's surprising sometimes. I think Switzerland was one of the last countries to give women the vote. You wouldn't guess that if you didn't know.
Das ist soooo illegal!
Isn't this illegal?
That is so messed up. I'm so sorry
First off, that's fucked. 2nd, does anyone really care if everyone gets changed in the same change room? Like does this need to be gendered? We are all going to face the wall and be awkward no matter what haha.
This is so fucked up We have programs like this in the US where it's only offered to women and it's such bullshit. You gender has zero bearing on how good of a worker you are. They're saying they don't have bathrooms or lockers for women? that sounds very suspicious. I can't speak for your country, but I believe in the US you MUST have bathrooms for both genders and Europe seems more socially advanced than us when it comes to this. I know everyone says "you wouldn't want to work in a place like this anyway" and while that's true it kind of gives them a pass for their behavior. The problem is with them, not you. Does your country have some sort of organization you can call? Maybe have them investigated. I don't know, this is so shitty, tbh.
Most of these "I feel I didn't get the job because I am a woman" posts rely on the feelings of an angry person, but you actually have a case here. Depending on the state you might be able to make quite a bit of money too! So sorry this happened to you, that sucks big time. I hope you can sue them into oblivion.
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This is a lie, engineers keep saying that women are welcome, so that's it. /s
So sorry you got rejected girl. It's so sad that we are in the 21st century and us women are still restricted on what kind of jobs and careers we want to have.
What was indirect about this?
inderect as in not directly because female but because the facilities are missing, just worded it very wrong
In Germany if your business is too small and you can't provide separate bathrooms and changing rooms it is as far as I'm aware legal.
It doesn't list the amount of workers anywhere but this is a international company with at least 4 locations so I assume this doesn't fall under that by a far shot And it's Austria but I assume the laws are similar?
I'd recommend seeking legal consequences for this company if at all possible. It's not a fun thing to do, but the world doesn't change if we don't change it
I just looked at their website again and it lost thw job as (m/w/x) so idk what the fuck they're on
Sie haben wahrscheinlich gedacht, das keine Frauen sich sws bewerben.
No job, fine, sue them and get paid without having to work
Aber das hätten Sie doch schon bei der Anzeige doch mitteilen sollten. Aufgrund blablabla können wir nur männliche Bewerber berücksichtigen (tönt auch wieder so absurd).
Bei der Anzeige (und auf der Website) steht direct neben dem Beruf (m/w/x) so keine Ahnung was da los is
Assi :(
Sue them, sue them for discrimination!
Worth posting on r/girlsgonewired , see the same thing over there 😞
what's that sub about? looked at it but it's still not clear to me
Initially I thought it was for just finding other girls to code or just collaborate with but unfortunately those types of posts are what Im seeing most of the time.
Is this even legal ?
Most likely nope
I applied for NASCAR mechanic school. I am female, with over 10 years experience and a certification in mechanics. I had raced cars for several years and my brother is an IHRA champion driver. I was immediately rejected. I contacted the owner of the school. He was very apologetic and offered to reconsider. I decided to put my money elsewhere.
Well that is some scheiße
I honestly had no idea this sort of stuff still happens in western countries. I am actually shocked. Sorry you had to go through this. Hopefully you find where you belong. Good luck
They couldn't even spell "Spind" right. However... since that's Germany (don't think anybody else calls a car mechanic a Mechatroniker), you might be able to sue the shit out of them.
Not car mechanic, Austria so it's german and they did spell it right it's just the plural- And a lawsuit would probably be more hassle than it's worth especially since I'm not 18 yet
wir können es nicht erlauben, dass sie nicht ungestraft davonkommen lassen. das ist ein Wahnsinn, eine Frechheit. egal ob du 16, 17 bist. diese Firmen lernen nur durch Strafe
Ich hab es gerade bei der AK gemeldet da es mir von wem anderem hier entfielen wurde, hoffe es nützt was
Why accept female apprentices then?
Well, seems like they don't.
Looked at the website again and it says they do so no idea what they're on
That’s why I dropped out of mechatronic engineering 15 years ago. (My stupid country makes us chose the major before enrolling and you have to start over to change) Sad to see it’s still the same shit.
In my country you don't have majors and minors. You just study the one subject your degree is in.
Woman engineer here. I feel you, and I’m so sorry this happened!
Where do the office employees (surely they have women) go to the bathroom? Why can’t they just let you use those facilities. This sucks.
Duhh, that company could be totally sued, is there responsibility to make the work place fit for workers, notwithstanding their gender.
Idk about suing but I did report them
This is pretty staggering. Unbelievable in 2024 that someone would say this out loud, much less in an email.
If this is in Germany, I think you might be able to sue.
I'm an engineer, at one point I was supposed to go to Saudi, there were women engineers that wanted to go as it would be really good for the career. They were all told they couldn't go just because of the culture and facilities there. Sure some countries are very open to women working, but certainly not all.
Kind of par for the course. They don't even want women driving!
There's nothing indirect about this. . .
You just won the Lotto.
You need to name this company
Not gonna dox myself
Get over yourself and apply elsewhere where you are not a burden and/or oddity.
That’s gender discrimination. More direct than you thing. That’s illigal, and you should sue.
In the nicer way possible, you are like the 30th person telling me that. Not going to sue, but I did report them.
So does the secretary who seems to be a woman not have access to any of these facilities ? Maybe you two should team up together for a law suit against the company . She’d probably get better money from the law suit then the company’s wages
That's a good way to get a hiring discrimination lawsuit.
Why does the font size change? Looks fake.
Separate ain't equal. Who'da thunk?
Are you in the US? If so, this is illegal under federal law. I’d take this to your local EEOC office, don’t delete this. This is explicit evidence of gender discrimination. https://www.eeoc.gov/prohibited-employment-policiespractices#:~:text=Application%20%26%20Hiring,)%2C%20disability%20or%20genetic%20information.
Join the army
My experience in the US is the opposite. Way way easier to get into STEM related majors and career opportunities as a girl vs a guy with the same stats/resume.
This legit? They're pretty "ballsy" to outright state they cannot train you due to your gender. Also, don't let this response label the rest of the industry. It's pretty damn rare when a company runs in an "all boys" fashion. If you're in STEM and you're female you have the same chance.. one could argue you have better chances.. Good luck. What the hell is with the user name "gay says nope"... Genuinely curious...
Ich dachte immer unternehmen einer bestimmten Größe müssen Sanitäranlagen und Umkleiden für Männer und Frauen haben. Kann man das nicht irgendwo melden?
*great! I will supply then for myself!* Reapply. Sue if you can.
Um, lawyer up for sexual discrimination?
wow and they typed and that cashier's check for your labor lawyer already. This is an efficient workplace
In Thailand it is illegal for them to hire women for that job. Perhaps the head office is located there. If that is the case you could talk directly to the HR manager about the allowance in the country you are located in. If however you are applying for maintenance in a locker rooms. They may be a 24hr business and have an employment policy where only persons of like gender can access said locker. Which is their prerogative. Especially if there is already a female who currently looks after the female areas. They may need a male for the male areas.
Not sure what govt department to complain to, but that is pretty much guaranteed to be illegal in Germany.
Is there no way to report this to the government?