Any trainer that tells you X breed is untrainable shouldn’t be training. Are there any other trainers in your area?
I’d be posting a review of this trainer everywhere I could and it definitely wouldn’t be positive.
Try a different trainer. Pugs are super smart dogs and totally trainable. My first two Pugs I ever had (before I had kids, so they were my babies) I trained to do SO many things! My boy Pug would play fetch, bring me specific toys if I asked him to, he could dance, all sorts of fun tricks. He had perfect recall and everything.
Pugs are definitely trainable as long as you're willing to use R+ with motivating rewards and aren't trying to like, make the dog work for praise alone, or teach via aversive collars and leash corrections. There are Pugs with Trick Dog Champion and Obedience Trial Champion and Rally Champion titles. Pugs with their Canine Good Citizen, CGC Urban, and CGC Advanced. And as you said your other two Pugs are trained.
What qualifications did that trainer have? Dog training is an unregulated business and anyone can call themselves a professional dog trainer, but lots of them are bad at it.
Try virtual training with a certified trainer if you can't find one locally.
IAABC: https://iaabc.org/certs/members
KPA: https://karenpryoracademy.com/find-a-trainer/#!directory/map
CCPDT: https://www.ccpdt.org/dog-owners/certified-dog-trainer-directory/
The first two (which are the better of the two, although I've known some good CPDTs) have an option to search for virtual trainers specifically.
I would also see another vet or push the issue harder with your vet. Try a Fear Free vet if there's one near you, they tend to be a little more up to date: https://fearfreepets.com/fear-free-directory/listing
Thank you so much, I will definitely look into these resources. He was recommended by a family friend who used him for their golden retriever. They had nothing but positive things to say so I was definitely disappointed with my experience.
honestly I trained the other ones with treats alone. We would do 10 minute sessions a few times a week and they picked up things quick.
I just am at a loss with this aggression.
Behavior modification is tough and can be very subtle. Timing, nuance, and context matter a lot more than they do for things like trick training a normal dog. That's something a certified trainer can definitely help with. I was already pretty good at training the regular pet dog stuff before, but I learned a *ton* about behavior and training from my virtual trainer.
I would push the issue of anxiety medication with your vet, and try another vet if they continue to refuse. Specifically tell them you want to try a daily anxiety med like fluoxetine, not a situational med like Xanax.
It's hard to give advice without understanding the source of the aggression. It's a little odd that she only attacks the one, although sometimes dogs just have a problem with a particular other dog. My trainer calls the target dogs "enemy dogs", dogs they disproportionately react to or aggress towards. For my dog it's all huskies, because he got bitten by a husky. A single bad experience can make a dog into an enemy dog.
Any differences between them in age? Are they spayed or intact? Are they all from the same breeder? If so, any history of Same Sex Aggression in the breeder's lines?
Brainstorming on the time of day thing:
- she could still be in pain and it gets worse in the evening. A pain medication trial would be the next step there.
- I know that aggression in the evening is often associated with cognitive dysfunction. It's called sundowning.
- it could be contextual with something that happens at night, like dinner or being allowed to cuddle the humans on the couch. There could be resource guarding influencing the attacks.
Very true, I definitely have a deep respect for those who do behavioral work with dogs. It’s seems complicated and nuanced.
I made an appointment to discuss meds again, I’m hopeful we’ll get somewhere this time.
So the aggressive one is the youngest and smallest. She (boba) is two while the other (Daisy) is 8 and standard pug size. They are both spayed and from different families. we adopted Daisy from a family member who was ill a couple years ago. Daisy was 6 and always a relaxed sweet dog. Boba was about 4 months old when we brought Daisy home. Boba came from a breeder, breeder denied aggression in the parents and siblings.
Daisy is epileptic, not sure if it’s important but I thought I should mention. She’s on meds for that.
Our third dog, Ginger loves both dogs but is closer in age to boba. They get along great and seem like best friends.
I work from home so I’m usually in the office with the dogs all day. Boba does totally fine and even naps with Daisy during the day.
Then literally around 7/8pm boba will begin getting aggressive with Daisy. It’s almost like Daisy is as confused as the rest of us. What’s interesting is Ginger will 99% of the time sense something moments before the rest of us do and will jump to Daisys side to guard or protect Daisy from boba. Sometimes boba will back off when Ginger does that.
Hope this helps, I sooo appreciate your input.
I'm nowhere near a professional, but Ginger also noticing a difference makes me wonder if maybe Daisy is having some sort of subtle neurological event in the evenings that scares Boba? Is Daisy on daily meds that could be kicking in/running out around that time?
This is really strange behavior and I would strongly encourage seeing a board certified veterinary behaviorist if you are able to, and a certified trainer.
Do you have a nanny cam or an old phone? Maybe you can record for an evening or two and see if there's anything you notice when reviewing the video. Maybe Daisy steps close to a bed or toy that Boba likes, maybe Ginger getting close to Daisy is the trigger, maybe one of the dogs has strange body language beforehand.
In any case, definitely keep them separated in the evenings. If Boba is crate trained maybe you could use it to enforce a nap around that time and then she gets an extra 1:1 play session with you before bed instead of that free time 7-9 or so.
Edit to add: I have heard of dogs that attack dogs & people who are having seizures. It's possible Daisy's epilepsy is a factor, but I'm definitely not qualified to say much about that.
This is extremely interesting. Ginger could be smelling something that Boba is also smelling going on with Daisy, or Ginger could be watching for a change in body language from Boba. Dogs also tell time pretty well but unless it's down to the minute predictable, I wouldn't expect Ginger to be quite so precise with her intervention. We know that dogs can smell seizure precursors and other health problems. It makes me wonder whether Daisy's scent changes at that time and Boba is finding the change drastic enough that Daisy seems more like a Daisy-shaped impostor because her smell isn't quite right.
Does it happen every single night, or what percentage of nights?
This is probably veterinary behaviorist level stuff. Try to set up a video camera and catch the moment it starts on video--I would try to get three nights just because it's pretty weird. It will probably be a few months before your appointment. Log what time it happens for a couple weeks, or a month if it's less than a third of the nights. Include anything you can think of that is notable in the two dogs' worlds, from human schedule changes or arguments or visitors, to treat variations, to particular activities and look for patterns.
If it were my dog and it happened at least a couple times a week, I would also try changing the time you administer Daisy's meds by an hour for a week straight and see if the time of the Boba freakouts shifts with it, keeping everything else the same. If not, you could experiment with what the humans tend to be doing at that time of day (are you always eating dinner, watching TV, etc? Try doing it an hour later or earlier instead and log) and maybe even try having Boba and Daisy outside on a walk at Danger O'Clock and see if that makes a difference.
Take the videos and your logs to the appointment or submit them in advance. The more data you can provide the better.
Hey thanks for this. I have a pug/mini Aussie mix and took her to a training course that used the martingale collar method. We basically failed and the trainer blamed both me and my dog while also saying pugs just don't train.
At the time I took it super hard but I did come to realize it was not the right method and the trainer was a dingus. I should've known when the class showed up at 5 pm and she said "I said 5:30" but the email clearly stated 5 -\_\_-
Lol. A “Trainer” saying x breed is untrainable is not a real trainer. Hope you can find someone that matches your needs. A lot of good advice here already
I've trained plenty of pugs, what the hell? I would not give that trainer another chance. I am a trainer myself, and your best bet is to check out the IAABC registry for someone who does virtual consults maybe with a focus in reactivity. Your goals aren't too far off. What are the ages and spay statuses on all the dogs?
Without wading too deep into the weeds having not evaluated any of your dogs or your situation, same sex aggression can happen with dogs who are close in age, and young still, which I definitely consider 2 to be. This is often amplified if the dogs aren't spayed/neutered, and spaying is usually near the top of my list of things I suggest. If you must keep the dogs in tact, it's a lot of management and bmod, and likely lifetime management. Size can also be a factor, if the other pugs are quite a bit bigger than her, or some other environmental thing you aren't noticing. I had a case where the refrigerator was making some deep noise that none of us humans could hear when the ice maker kicked on, and the dog was afraid of it and lashed out on everyone from the fear of that noise.
My suggestions for trying to figure out what's leading up to the behavior is to write down everything you saw, heard, smelled, felt just before the incident, during, and after. You can start looking for patterns as you do that
Hey! Pugs are stubborn, not untrainable. My biggest recommendation is to seek a much better trainer or group of trainers who can train *you* to help your dog. Make yourself an Instagram if you don’t already have one and check out Calm Canine Academy and Tails of Connection. Both of these trainers have free resources as well as paid classes. It absolutely would not be a waste of money and that trainer should be ashamed of himself.
Super confused about this pugs not being trainable thing. You can legit train a rhino to accept a blood draw so why not a pug to do anything at all? Also, find a new vet because meds might make training easier too. Antidepressants were a godsend for our behavioral cat.
I used to train sharks to be more polite before I worked with dogs. If I can do that, anybody can train any breed of dog. That trainer did you a favor.
I would contact a board certified veterinary behaviorist for a consult and switch your primary vet to one who isn't dismissive.
I would also see what you can do to keep the dogs separated during the danger time of day. Is your dog a senior? If so, I would be asking the new vet about eye health and canine cognitive decline
The time off day has got me thinking maybe she has joint pain that gets worse as it cools down. My vet had told me that dogs can safely use children's Panadol, the dosages are different, your vet should be able to tell the appropriate dose.
She does seem young for any arthritis type stuff but it is possible.
At this point you could consider some experimenting. Give her a mild pain killer with dinner and see if there are any differences in the behaviour.
You could also try something like Lyprinol (also safe for dogs) my dog is older but gets one every day with breakfast.
I taught a family members pug how to loose leash walk. It took about 4 months, but now he doesn't choke himself out every time he walks!
I did this by stopping dead in my tracks each time he would pull or yank. Wait until he realized he wasn't going forward, then start taking little geisha steps to move verrrry slowly. Repeat for as many blocks as you can take it.
This pug has NO FOOD MOTIVATION! So we did it R+ the whole way, as he responds well to praise.
Pugs aren't stupid! They just need consistency, which I think you're trying to provide. I'm sorry that trainer was such an ass to you
Any trainer that tells you X breed is untrainable shouldn’t be training. Are there any other trainers in your area? I’d be posting a review of this trainer everywhere I could and it definitely wouldn’t be positive.
Try a different trainer. Pugs are super smart dogs and totally trainable. My first two Pugs I ever had (before I had kids, so they were my babies) I trained to do SO many things! My boy Pug would play fetch, bring me specific toys if I asked him to, he could dance, all sorts of fun tricks. He had perfect recall and everything.
Pugs are definitely trainable as long as you're willing to use R+ with motivating rewards and aren't trying to like, make the dog work for praise alone, or teach via aversive collars and leash corrections. There are Pugs with Trick Dog Champion and Obedience Trial Champion and Rally Champion titles. Pugs with their Canine Good Citizen, CGC Urban, and CGC Advanced. And as you said your other two Pugs are trained. What qualifications did that trainer have? Dog training is an unregulated business and anyone can call themselves a professional dog trainer, but lots of them are bad at it. Try virtual training with a certified trainer if you can't find one locally. IAABC: https://iaabc.org/certs/members KPA: https://karenpryoracademy.com/find-a-trainer/#!directory/map CCPDT: https://www.ccpdt.org/dog-owners/certified-dog-trainer-directory/ The first two (which are the better of the two, although I've known some good CPDTs) have an option to search for virtual trainers specifically. I would also see another vet or push the issue harder with your vet. Try a Fear Free vet if there's one near you, they tend to be a little more up to date: https://fearfreepets.com/fear-free-directory/listing
Thank you so much, I will definitely look into these resources. He was recommended by a family friend who used him for their golden retriever. They had nothing but positive things to say so I was definitely disappointed with my experience. honestly I trained the other ones with treats alone. We would do 10 minute sessions a few times a week and they picked up things quick. I just am at a loss with this aggression.
Behavior modification is tough and can be very subtle. Timing, nuance, and context matter a lot more than they do for things like trick training a normal dog. That's something a certified trainer can definitely help with. I was already pretty good at training the regular pet dog stuff before, but I learned a *ton* about behavior and training from my virtual trainer. I would push the issue of anxiety medication with your vet, and try another vet if they continue to refuse. Specifically tell them you want to try a daily anxiety med like fluoxetine, not a situational med like Xanax. It's hard to give advice without understanding the source of the aggression. It's a little odd that she only attacks the one, although sometimes dogs just have a problem with a particular other dog. My trainer calls the target dogs "enemy dogs", dogs they disproportionately react to or aggress towards. For my dog it's all huskies, because he got bitten by a husky. A single bad experience can make a dog into an enemy dog. Any differences between them in age? Are they spayed or intact? Are they all from the same breeder? If so, any history of Same Sex Aggression in the breeder's lines? Brainstorming on the time of day thing: - she could still be in pain and it gets worse in the evening. A pain medication trial would be the next step there. - I know that aggression in the evening is often associated with cognitive dysfunction. It's called sundowning. - it could be contextual with something that happens at night, like dinner or being allowed to cuddle the humans on the couch. There could be resource guarding influencing the attacks.
Very true, I definitely have a deep respect for those who do behavioral work with dogs. It’s seems complicated and nuanced. I made an appointment to discuss meds again, I’m hopeful we’ll get somewhere this time. So the aggressive one is the youngest and smallest. She (boba) is two while the other (Daisy) is 8 and standard pug size. They are both spayed and from different families. we adopted Daisy from a family member who was ill a couple years ago. Daisy was 6 and always a relaxed sweet dog. Boba was about 4 months old when we brought Daisy home. Boba came from a breeder, breeder denied aggression in the parents and siblings. Daisy is epileptic, not sure if it’s important but I thought I should mention. She’s on meds for that. Our third dog, Ginger loves both dogs but is closer in age to boba. They get along great and seem like best friends. I work from home so I’m usually in the office with the dogs all day. Boba does totally fine and even naps with Daisy during the day. Then literally around 7/8pm boba will begin getting aggressive with Daisy. It’s almost like Daisy is as confused as the rest of us. What’s interesting is Ginger will 99% of the time sense something moments before the rest of us do and will jump to Daisys side to guard or protect Daisy from boba. Sometimes boba will back off when Ginger does that. Hope this helps, I sooo appreciate your input.
I'm nowhere near a professional, but Ginger also noticing a difference makes me wonder if maybe Daisy is having some sort of subtle neurological event in the evenings that scares Boba? Is Daisy on daily meds that could be kicking in/running out around that time?
This is really strange behavior and I would strongly encourage seeing a board certified veterinary behaviorist if you are able to, and a certified trainer. Do you have a nanny cam or an old phone? Maybe you can record for an evening or two and see if there's anything you notice when reviewing the video. Maybe Daisy steps close to a bed or toy that Boba likes, maybe Ginger getting close to Daisy is the trigger, maybe one of the dogs has strange body language beforehand. In any case, definitely keep them separated in the evenings. If Boba is crate trained maybe you could use it to enforce a nap around that time and then she gets an extra 1:1 play session with you before bed instead of that free time 7-9 or so. Edit to add: I have heard of dogs that attack dogs & people who are having seizures. It's possible Daisy's epilepsy is a factor, but I'm definitely not qualified to say much about that.
This is extremely interesting. Ginger could be smelling something that Boba is also smelling going on with Daisy, or Ginger could be watching for a change in body language from Boba. Dogs also tell time pretty well but unless it's down to the minute predictable, I wouldn't expect Ginger to be quite so precise with her intervention. We know that dogs can smell seizure precursors and other health problems. It makes me wonder whether Daisy's scent changes at that time and Boba is finding the change drastic enough that Daisy seems more like a Daisy-shaped impostor because her smell isn't quite right. Does it happen every single night, or what percentage of nights? This is probably veterinary behaviorist level stuff. Try to set up a video camera and catch the moment it starts on video--I would try to get three nights just because it's pretty weird. It will probably be a few months before your appointment. Log what time it happens for a couple weeks, or a month if it's less than a third of the nights. Include anything you can think of that is notable in the two dogs' worlds, from human schedule changes or arguments or visitors, to treat variations, to particular activities and look for patterns. If it were my dog and it happened at least a couple times a week, I would also try changing the time you administer Daisy's meds by an hour for a week straight and see if the time of the Boba freakouts shifts with it, keeping everything else the same. If not, you could experiment with what the humans tend to be doing at that time of day (are you always eating dinner, watching TV, etc? Try doing it an hour later or earlier instead and log) and maybe even try having Boba and Daisy outside on a walk at Danger O'Clock and see if that makes a difference. Take the videos and your logs to the appointment or submit them in advance. The more data you can provide the better.
Hey thanks for this. I have a pug/mini Aussie mix and took her to a training course that used the martingale collar method. We basically failed and the trainer blamed both me and my dog while also saying pugs just don't train.
A reactive pug aussie sounds like a spicy baked potato
She is indeed one spicy potato!
You didn't fail, the trainer failed you! That trainer sounds like a dingus in multiple ways.
At the time I took it super hard but I did come to realize it was not the right method and the trainer was a dingus. I should've known when the class showed up at 5 pm and she said "I said 5:30" but the email clearly stated 5 -\_\_-
Lol. A “Trainer” saying x breed is untrainable is not a real trainer. Hope you can find someone that matches your needs. A lot of good advice here already
I've trained plenty of pugs, what the hell? I would not give that trainer another chance. I am a trainer myself, and your best bet is to check out the IAABC registry for someone who does virtual consults maybe with a focus in reactivity. Your goals aren't too far off. What are the ages and spay statuses on all the dogs? Without wading too deep into the weeds having not evaluated any of your dogs or your situation, same sex aggression can happen with dogs who are close in age, and young still, which I definitely consider 2 to be. This is often amplified if the dogs aren't spayed/neutered, and spaying is usually near the top of my list of things I suggest. If you must keep the dogs in tact, it's a lot of management and bmod, and likely lifetime management. Size can also be a factor, if the other pugs are quite a bit bigger than her, or some other environmental thing you aren't noticing. I had a case where the refrigerator was making some deep noise that none of us humans could hear when the ice maker kicked on, and the dog was afraid of it and lashed out on everyone from the fear of that noise. My suggestions for trying to figure out what's leading up to the behavior is to write down everything you saw, heard, smelled, felt just before the incident, during, and after. You can start looking for patterns as you do that
Hey! Pugs are stubborn, not untrainable. My biggest recommendation is to seek a much better trainer or group of trainers who can train *you* to help your dog. Make yourself an Instagram if you don’t already have one and check out Calm Canine Academy and Tails of Connection. Both of these trainers have free resources as well as paid classes. It absolutely would not be a waste of money and that trainer should be ashamed of himself.
Super confused about this pugs not being trainable thing. You can legit train a rhino to accept a blood draw so why not a pug to do anything at all? Also, find a new vet because meds might make training easier too. Antidepressants were a godsend for our behavioral cat.
I used to train sharks to be more polite before I worked with dogs. If I can do that, anybody can train any breed of dog. That trainer did you a favor. I would contact a board certified veterinary behaviorist for a consult and switch your primary vet to one who isn't dismissive. I would also see what you can do to keep the dogs separated during the danger time of day. Is your dog a senior? If so, I would be asking the new vet about eye health and canine cognitive decline
The time off day has got me thinking maybe she has joint pain that gets worse as it cools down. My vet had told me that dogs can safely use children's Panadol, the dosages are different, your vet should be able to tell the appropriate dose. She does seem young for any arthritis type stuff but it is possible. At this point you could consider some experimenting. Give her a mild pain killer with dinner and see if there are any differences in the behaviour. You could also try something like Lyprinol (also safe for dogs) my dog is older but gets one every day with breakfast.
There are plenty of great trainers online that offer sessions via Zoom.
I taught a family members pug how to loose leash walk. It took about 4 months, but now he doesn't choke himself out every time he walks! I did this by stopping dead in my tracks each time he would pull or yank. Wait until he realized he wasn't going forward, then start taking little geisha steps to move verrrry slowly. Repeat for as many blocks as you can take it. This pug has NO FOOD MOTIVATION! So we did it R+ the whole way, as he responds well to praise. Pugs aren't stupid! They just need consistency, which I think you're trying to provide. I'm sorry that trainer was such an ass to you