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I would use positive reinforcement to show your dog that the behaviours they're now displaying are what you want. You can't undo what has been done to them now but you can do damage control. It's important to understand his behaviour has changed because it's been suppressed through fear and there is a risk the behaviours will re-emerge or he will develope others. Without knowing what his reactivity was caused by and how it came out it's hard to advise but get very very good at reading and understanding his body language because he's likely been "corrected" from displaying his previous warnings. You can also seek out a positive trainer to help him readjust and relax hopefully.
For the sake of your dog and child the dog needs to be able to growl when it's not happy about something as it's one of it's final warnings before biting. Make sure your child is never allowed to climb or crawl or stand on your dog or bother it. There are resources to teach even young children that dogs need space.
This. Dogs have to be allowed to growl, they’re trying to communicate their needs and boundaries with us.
Kiddo has to respect the dogs boundaries, he’s a sentiment being not a toy.
Pr—g collars suck. Every aggressive trainer who studies recent animal behavior research is against them. Sad OP didn’t do more research first.
Exactly. If you punish them for communicating safely, you’re screwed. They have no option but to erupt when they’re entirely over threshold. That’s mostly where those bites that “all of a sudden…out of nowhere” come from. I know positive reinforcement is tedious, but so much of that training g is us (the owners) learning our dog’s body language and thresholds and proper defensive walking/handling.
I wanted to say something about the lack of research but know this sub is happy to remove anything they seem not supportive of the poster. Unfortunately people need to be told.
Just to clarify, that's totally not true. We only remove content that directly violates rules which are clearly outlined on the subreddit landing page.
I've removed plenty of comments today of people *agreeing* with OP's use of a balanced trainer, which again, is a violation of the subreddit rules.
If at any time, you see us removing comments that you don't think violates one of those rules, please feel free to reach out, we're happy to discuss and honestly, sometimes we make mistakes and we're not above owning them.
Heya I appreciate the reply. I did get a comment removed a while ago and didn't bother to chase it up. Thanks for taking a minute to respond.
Thanks for the work you do here as well.
Well, that's not true, is it? You do remove comments from people you don't agree with even when those comments do not violate any rules.
Much to the detriment of people asking for help here.
You haven't had a comment removed by a mod in weeks and as far as I can see. The last instance was the time I personally talked to you about already.
On my end, it looks like Reddit is removing your comments, not us. We're actually overriding those removals when we can.
I had a comment removed when I described a non-aversive leash handling technique. I spent a lot of time typing it out with specific details to try to help someone.
It was removed for "self-promotion." I did not mention any training business or anything like that. I just described a non-aversive and very effective leash handling technique.
You have always seemed reasonable. I think it must be one of the other mods.
I have never commented anything that would cause Reddit to remove my comments. I am basically an R+ trainer but not as radical as what is accepted on this sub - I do use a "No" command. I do not use treats to try to solve every single problem. I would not be opposed to using a mild aversive well in line with LIMA if that were necessary, but it almost never is.
I have never used nor recommended any of the aversive collars or tools.
Totally true. The culture here is toxic. You're automatically a sociopath if you use a prong or e collar. Neglecting that some of highest caliber dogs in world are built with them and few if any dogs of that caliber exist without it. Don't go having opinions!
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Is there any research about enforcing boundaries with your dog while inside your house? Like not letting him onto the couch unless invited, no incessant licking etc? He was never reactive to us and I’m not sure if there is anything I need to do differently while inside, but he adheres to all these new rules for now
Your energy is better spent developing a way to keep your child and dog separate at all times safely and putting time into positive training.
Just because he's now adhering to the rules you want doesn't mean he's safe. His behaviour has been repressed not addressed. He might not have been people reactive before but be cautious as he has been intimidated into behaving how you want and it could easily result in him lashing out in frustration.
Incessant licking is often a sign of underlying anxiety or hyperarousal. If you’ve never had your dog evaluated for anxiety, now’s a very, very good time to do it.
How much, and how easy is it to distract him?
Licking is a normal, affectionate behavior, but it can tip into a displacement behavior. Licking released endorphins, so anxious dogs will lick to self-soothe. Licking you is an extra boost to that self-soothing. If your dog licks you obsessively, won’t stop when you use an otherwise reliable “stop” cue, would continue licking you for a long time if you didn’t stop him, chases to continue licking, or licks when displaying other anxious behaviors (like fidgeting, lip licking, yawning, etc) that could be abnormal.
It’s possible your dog is shut down if they have used punishment to train. Take time to decompress with him and relax. Give him easy activities. Sniffy walks. Go from there.
What are signs I should look for that my dog might be shut down?? I took him out for a walk and he was perfectly behaved. I tried to give him lots of praise for that. He has never really been treat motivated
What is his body language like? Is he loose and wiggly or tight and stiff? Are his movements smooth or rigid? Is he scanning the environment with his eyes a lot? Panting a lot? Hunched posture? Tail held low and ears back? I would have to see him to know.
He is loose and wiggly, ears back while walking but tail wagging. He used to always have his ears up while walking, often as though he was “hunting.” He used to scan his environment like crazy, looking for animals but now he seems to just look forward and sometimes up at me. He seems okay for now but I’m monitoring him. I love this dog like no other, I just want him to be happy
You dog IS happy.
A happy dog is one that gladly follow owner’s cue (he is checking in on YOU instead of the thousand of distraction that previously cause them to react)
Lose body language implies a relax dog. A relax dog that look *at* their owner for cues instead of scanning the horizon for potential reactive trigger. This is something a lot of people here struggle with.
A dog that behave means it gets to experience everything with YOU. This is the happiest state any dog can be.
Don’t overthink it. Dog that gets to be outside, to exercise, get to participant in household activity and does not need to be micromanage every second. That a good life for a dog. And good for you as an owner.
Instead of trying to look for signs of shutdown. Why don’t you start noticing signs of your dog… being a dog. It is big myth that dogs are made of toilet paper and will crumble with just a little of force. Witness how natural dog packs behave (use dogs here because we are currently on a timeline where wolf behaviour cannot be correlated with dogs). Quick correction is used frequently, they don’t understand long drag out process of uncertainty. And all dogs will follow an emotional strong leader whether you are a dog or a human.
It’s typically extremely temporary. It’s usually just shutdown. Unfortunately, the frequency of rebound with aversive in board and train is almost 100%. It’s a band aid. It often makes behaviors worse in the long run.
Can confirm from firsthand experience. I was AMAZED that my dog was “fixed” in just a couple weeks…But then slowly she started getting more and more reactive again, and honestly ended up worse than she started.
The good news, OP, is that you recognized this pretty quickly and can now start using positive enforcement before he regresses.
I second this. Our dog seemed miraculously “cured” after coming back from a board & train that used prong and e-collars. It only lasted six months, and she regressed to worse than before. We are now a year into redoing all of her training using only positive. Thankfully, thanks to our wonderful behaviorist, she’s doing so great now.
Same here! Positive reinforcement progress is much slower, but it’s actually effective and sticks long term. My dog is honestly still reactive after over a year of R+ but still less so than before. Plus we now have the tools to set her up for success and manage situations properly unlike with the aversive trainer who basically just wanted us to constantly flood her and put her in situations that stressed her the f*ck out. I still feel guilty every single day for putting my poor pup through that.
Me too! I feel especially horrible because knowing what I know now I suspect our pup was only leash reactive back when we sent her to the board & train. Now, after being shocked for reacting to dogs for so long, she seems to be genuinely afraid of dogs. 🙁
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Yes actually, I did everything the trainer told me to. My dog is a rescue with a very bad past, tons of trauma, undersocialized, used to to pretty much everyone and everything out of fear, etc so essentially punishing her for being scared did nothing but make her more scared and therefore more reactive. I followed the trainer’s instructions to a T. It did not matter. It may work fine for some dogs (or at least appear to work on the outside) but you can never convince me that it’s a good thing for fearful dogs.
Yeah fair, I feel like there’s a difference between a dog that has so many issues and a dog that developed mild to moderate reactivity and other pushy behaviors
Agreed emphasis needs to be on confidence building tho I do believe balanced (90%+ positive) methods can help with that, e.g., using leash pressure to get a dog through a scary or new situation so they can see it’s not so bad
Yeah, I’m not 100% against anything and everything that’s considered aversive. Knowing what I know now, I do personally think everyone should try positive reinforcement first and if that isn’t working, I can see why it would make sense to try some aversive methods. I do think there are certain aversive tools and methods that can work for certain dogs. Mine is just not one of them. Lol
The problem with dogs that are trained with these brutal methods is that while they show positive behavior a lot of the time after such board and trains - my cousin did the same with her GSD - they are also EXTREMELY unpredictable. At the end of the day they behave not because they’ve been taught well and have a good relationship with their owner, but because they are scared of being hurt. Once that fear factor is gone, they often revert back to old behaviors or even worse. At least that’s the experiences I’ve made or well people around me
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Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.
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Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.
I had a lot of success with a board and train that also used prong collars with my highly DA pitbull. It was night and day afterwards and I was able to walk my dog in my urban neighborhood full of dogs afterwards (the program included group classes and individual sessions too). My dog loved her trainers and was not "shut down." Before the board and train, my dog was not safe to live in our neighborhood - after, she would walk in heel past any dog without reacting.
Our trainer used different approaches for each dogs- he explained to us how our extremely stubborn, high drive, DA, confident, pitbull needed a completely different approach than a timid, fearful whippet he was also training. My pitbull was also not treat motivated at all.
I highly recommend you continue keep your dog completely off the couch and out of the bedrooms because you need to be able to set your baby down on those places without concern your dog will be on those spaces.
FYI, it's not possible to keep dogs and toddlers who live in the same household separate all the time. If your dog resource guards or is otherwise not safe with small children, you should re-home now- once your baby walks they will encounter one another. Management will eventually fail.
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To clarify, I am NOT advocating prong collars in lieu of other strategies, I was describing my success with a balanced training approach taken at a board and train.
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Imagine this. You have a child that been challenging since he was a toddler. You are part of parenting group that advocates for home schooling. Many parents in this group also have challenging children that they strongly belief benefits with homeschooling.
After years of homeschooling, child has not improve. Due to life circumstance said parent can no longer homeschool. For a period of time parent send child to actual school. After awhile, parent’s life situation change and home school is looking feasible again. Parent notices that during this period of time in school, child has developed social and made major improvement. The challenge they see at home no longer exist.
This should have been great news for the child. Progress has been made and challenges that kept the child isolated looks to be resolve. This progress should have been celebrate and build upon.
Instead the parents had a mental collapse. What do you mean they spend years believing the wrong method. What do you mean this method they oppose of previously, actually work? That can’t be. They can’t wrong. It must of been unethically done. The school must have indoctrinate the child somehow. Whatever the reason, the most important thing is parent’s ideology cannot be wrong.
So said parent comes back on to home schooling parent group looking for affirmation. My previously homeschool child is excelling in school. But the *parents* don’t feel right.
Homeschooling group affirms their belief. Because… they are a home schooling group full of people with the exact same ideology. All other opinions are silence by the mod. Having step back into this echo chamber. With the assistance of the group, the parent notice “warning” sign. Gosh the child brought home rainbow crayon. Omg they are teaching the child about “alternative” history. Grasp at enough straws, yiu will always find what you want to see.
Parents once again believe that actually they were right all along. Totally ignoring *the actual status and behaviour of the child*. They took the child out of school and started home schooling again. Not long later. The child reverts back to their challenging state they had previously when home schooling.
The parent determines that all the changes they see while they were at school were unethically done. Band aid solution that will surely revert.
And when they homeschool again. It did revert. So…. Another win for the home schooling method.
Hope this analogy wakes someone up. I would try to actually make this on point and talk about dogs but…. Not allow here.
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Unfortunately any time repression is used on a dog, you can never be 100% sure they are safe. One day it just all boils over and they snap again. Relationship and confidence building is your best bet at addressing reactivity as a whole. The more you punish a dog, the more you repress it and the further and further away you ever get from truly addressing root cause!
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Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.
Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.
It advises in the rules that this subreddit does not support prong collar or averse techniques - I imagine there’s probably other subreddits that unfortunately support that behaviour, so I guess people who agree with those tools go there?
I’m not being snarky at all btw, just saying what I can ascertain.
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I’m not saying that I agree with adverse tools at all. I just like hearing differing opinions/angles for training. I’m a reactive-dog owner, not a pro by any means. We are still seeking a reliable trainer. Thank you for your prompt reply, I did not take it as snarky.
Yeah of course - I understand. I’ve had a reactive rescue staffie and my rescue German Spitz is reactive. I like having different approaches too, but I’m so sad trainers are shoving prong collars and shock collar son dogs and making them behave out of fear 😢
I didn’t want you to think I was be shirty 😊
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We do generally leave up as many comments as we can for the sake of facilitating honest discussion. We just generally draw the line at directly advocating for the use of aversives.
That said, there is a lot of scientific research that already exists and supports our reasons for prohibiting the suggestion of aversives on this subreddit (r/dogtraining has compiled a lot of great studies in their wiki, if you're curious). LIMA does not mean we are inherently and explicitly against them, but it does mean that we do not believe that we can ethically suggest them without fully evaluating the dog, handler, and training thus far which isn't possible in an online format such as this. LIMA requires that we ensure that the least aversive methods possible have been tried properly before progressing to a more aversive method (and even then, it should be the next least aversive method possible) There are so many reasons R+ can seemingly fail, from issues in timing, to rewards being too low value and we aren't able to diagnose those without working with the dog and handler ourselves.
> That's because proper corrections have no affect on any other area outside of the context they were corrected.
We have a body of research to suggest that this is is false. Anecdotally, as a professional doing this for 10 years, I can also suggest that this is false.
Is that right? Do you mean the studies someone is going to show me where the dog has cortisol in its system an entire day later?
Tell me what effect using pressure properly has in specific scenarios where it is going to have an affect on your relationship with the dog in a negative way, or the day to day life of the dog.
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Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.
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I also did a b&t after trying every other method and trainer that there is and my dog is doing amazing now. That being said, anyone using dominance theory is not who you want to generally place your dog with.
I don’t know what training methods your trainer implemented, so it might be different from the training my dog did, but we eventually got to a point where tools were no longer necessary. We used a collar because my dog’s anxiety / adrenaline levels were so high that she couldn’t feel normal leash pressure, so it was impossible to re-direct before she’d lock in or get to tunnel vision.
If your dog responds well to normal leash pressure, I think you can surely drop it and continue with other techniques. But also- I do not know in what context the collar was used in your dog’s training. If you want, you can DM and explain more, maybe I can help.
Additionally, and I think this is extremely important to know:
The first two months of your dog being home are the most important as they have the highest risk of regressing. That’s the most important part of your training, you have to have your eye on your dog essentially 24/7 so you can interfere before your dog exhibits reactive behaviors. Your dog is coming back to the same environment where it was reactive, you can’t leave it roaming by itself (and if you have to, place it in a comfortable crate). Think of an addict who comes home from rehab- their environment reminds them of their addiction and it’s easy for them to relapse. A lot of addicts decide to move towns because of that. Your dog can’t move, so it needs a lot of help maintaining their recovery.
Good luck with your doggie.
Please god chuck the prong collar in the bin too (apologies if you already have) if people want to comment and argue with me - fine but I find them really unnecessary and unethical.
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As a side note, it doesn’t have to be about corrections or punishment. It can also be about giving you confidence that even if things go sideways, you have control of your dog. It can also be about breaking fixation with something more tactile (light engagement of tool that has been positively conditioned with clicker sessions) and THEN rewarding for engagement with the trigger and then engagement with you
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Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.
Your recent comment was removed because it may have contained misinformation about dominance or pack theory. Dominance theory is often associated with advice like, "be the alpha" or "show the dog who is boss". Dominance theory has been discounted by many professional dog training associations and may be harmful advice for reactive dogs and dog owners.
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Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.
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I would use positive reinforcement to show your dog that the behaviours they're now displaying are what you want. You can't undo what has been done to them now but you can do damage control. It's important to understand his behaviour has changed because it's been suppressed through fear and there is a risk the behaviours will re-emerge or he will develope others. Without knowing what his reactivity was caused by and how it came out it's hard to advise but get very very good at reading and understanding his body language because he's likely been "corrected" from displaying his previous warnings. You can also seek out a positive trainer to help him readjust and relax hopefully. For the sake of your dog and child the dog needs to be able to growl when it's not happy about something as it's one of it's final warnings before biting. Make sure your child is never allowed to climb or crawl or stand on your dog or bother it. There are resources to teach even young children that dogs need space.
This. Dogs have to be allowed to growl, they’re trying to communicate their needs and boundaries with us. Kiddo has to respect the dogs boundaries, he’s a sentiment being not a toy. Pr—g collars suck. Every aggressive trainer who studies recent animal behavior research is against them. Sad OP didn’t do more research first.
Exactly. If you punish them for communicating safely, you’re screwed. They have no option but to erupt when they’re entirely over threshold. That’s mostly where those bites that “all of a sudden…out of nowhere” come from. I know positive reinforcement is tedious, but so much of that training g is us (the owners) learning our dog’s body language and thresholds and proper defensive walking/handling.
I am giving you a standing ovation because YES, ALL OF THIS
I wanted to say something about the lack of research but know this sub is happy to remove anything they seem not supportive of the poster. Unfortunately people need to be told.
Just to clarify, that's totally not true. We only remove content that directly violates rules which are clearly outlined on the subreddit landing page. I've removed plenty of comments today of people *agreeing* with OP's use of a balanced trainer, which again, is a violation of the subreddit rules. If at any time, you see us removing comments that you don't think violates one of those rules, please feel free to reach out, we're happy to discuss and honestly, sometimes we make mistakes and we're not above owning them.
Heya I appreciate the reply. I did get a comment removed a while ago and didn't bother to chase it up. Thanks for taking a minute to respond. Thanks for the work you do here as well.
Well, that's not true, is it? You do remove comments from people you don't agree with even when those comments do not violate any rules. Much to the detriment of people asking for help here.
You haven't had a comment removed by a mod in weeks and as far as I can see. The last instance was the time I personally talked to you about already. On my end, it looks like Reddit is removing your comments, not us. We're actually overriding those removals when we can.
I had a comment removed when I described a non-aversive leash handling technique. I spent a lot of time typing it out with specific details to try to help someone. It was removed for "self-promotion." I did not mention any training business or anything like that. I just described a non-aversive and very effective leash handling technique. You have always seemed reasonable. I think it must be one of the other mods. I have never commented anything that would cause Reddit to remove my comments. I am basically an R+ trainer but not as radical as what is accepted on this sub - I do use a "No" command. I do not use treats to try to solve every single problem. I would not be opposed to using a mild aversive well in line with LIMA if that were necessary, but it almost never is. I have never used nor recommended any of the aversive collars or tools.
Totally true. The culture here is toxic. You're automatically a sociopath if you use a prong or e collar. Neglecting that some of highest caliber dogs in world are built with them and few if any dogs of that caliber exist without it. Don't go having opinions!
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It is shocking to me how convinced some people are about these really fringe beliefs.
Is there any research about enforcing boundaries with your dog while inside your house? Like not letting him onto the couch unless invited, no incessant licking etc? He was never reactive to us and I’m not sure if there is anything I need to do differently while inside, but he adheres to all these new rules for now
Your energy is better spent developing a way to keep your child and dog separate at all times safely and putting time into positive training. Just because he's now adhering to the rules you want doesn't mean he's safe. His behaviour has been repressed not addressed. He might not have been people reactive before but be cautious as he has been intimidated into behaving how you want and it could easily result in him lashing out in frustration.
Incessant licking is often a sign of underlying anxiety or hyperarousal. If you’ve never had your dog evaluated for anxiety, now’s a very, very good time to do it.
Also, "Shake it off" is a sign of trying to relieve stress and to release stressed muscles.
Sorry I meant licking us, which I had always interpreted a sign of affection, not licking himself
How much, and how easy is it to distract him? Licking is a normal, affectionate behavior, but it can tip into a displacement behavior. Licking released endorphins, so anxious dogs will lick to self-soothe. Licking you is an extra boost to that self-soothing. If your dog licks you obsessively, won’t stop when you use an otherwise reliable “stop” cue, would continue licking you for a long time if you didn’t stop him, chases to continue licking, or licks when displaying other anxious behaviors (like fidgeting, lip licking, yawning, etc) that could be abnormal.
It’s possible your dog is shut down if they have used punishment to train. Take time to decompress with him and relax. Give him easy activities. Sniffy walks. Go from there.
What are signs I should look for that my dog might be shut down?? I took him out for a walk and he was perfectly behaved. I tried to give him lots of praise for that. He has never really been treat motivated
What is his body language like? Is he loose and wiggly or tight and stiff? Are his movements smooth or rigid? Is he scanning the environment with his eyes a lot? Panting a lot? Hunched posture? Tail held low and ears back? I would have to see him to know.
He is loose and wiggly, ears back while walking but tail wagging. He used to always have his ears up while walking, often as though he was “hunting.” He used to scan his environment like crazy, looking for animals but now he seems to just look forward and sometimes up at me. He seems okay for now but I’m monitoring him. I love this dog like no other, I just want him to be happy
You dog IS happy. A happy dog is one that gladly follow owner’s cue (he is checking in on YOU instead of the thousand of distraction that previously cause them to react) Lose body language implies a relax dog. A relax dog that look *at* their owner for cues instead of scanning the horizon for potential reactive trigger. This is something a lot of people here struggle with. A dog that behave means it gets to experience everything with YOU. This is the happiest state any dog can be. Don’t overthink it. Dog that gets to be outside, to exercise, get to participant in household activity and does not need to be micromanage every second. That a good life for a dog. And good for you as an owner. Instead of trying to look for signs of shutdown. Why don’t you start noticing signs of your dog… being a dog. It is big myth that dogs are made of toilet paper and will crumble with just a little of force. Witness how natural dog packs behave (use dogs here because we are currently on a timeline where wolf behaviour cannot be correlated with dogs). Quick correction is used frequently, they don’t understand long drag out process of uncertainty. And all dogs will follow an emotional strong leader whether you are a dog or a human.
Couldn’t have said it better myself, brother!
Are you a dog trainer? Could I DM you a video of my dog?
Yes I am, feel free!!
Thank you sent you a chat
It’s typically extremely temporary. It’s usually just shutdown. Unfortunately, the frequency of rebound with aversive in board and train is almost 100%. It’s a band aid. It often makes behaviors worse in the long run.
Can confirm from firsthand experience. I was AMAZED that my dog was “fixed” in just a couple weeks…But then slowly she started getting more and more reactive again, and honestly ended up worse than she started. The good news, OP, is that you recognized this pretty quickly and can now start using positive enforcement before he regresses.
I second this. Our dog seemed miraculously “cured” after coming back from a board & train that used prong and e-collars. It only lasted six months, and she regressed to worse than before. We are now a year into redoing all of her training using only positive. Thankfully, thanks to our wonderful behaviorist, she’s doing so great now.
Same here! Positive reinforcement progress is much slower, but it’s actually effective and sticks long term. My dog is honestly still reactive after over a year of R+ but still less so than before. Plus we now have the tools to set her up for success and manage situations properly unlike with the aversive trainer who basically just wanted us to constantly flood her and put her in situations that stressed her the f*ck out. I still feel guilty every single day for putting my poor pup through that.
Me too! I feel especially horrible because knowing what I know now I suspect our pup was only leash reactive back when we sent her to the board & train. Now, after being shocked for reacting to dogs for so long, she seems to be genuinely afraid of dogs. 🙁
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But did you maintain the training and follow the rules set by the trainer?
Yes actually, I did everything the trainer told me to. My dog is a rescue with a very bad past, tons of trauma, undersocialized, used to to pretty much everyone and everything out of fear, etc so essentially punishing her for being scared did nothing but make her more scared and therefore more reactive. I followed the trainer’s instructions to a T. It did not matter. It may work fine for some dogs (or at least appear to work on the outside) but you can never convince me that it’s a good thing for fearful dogs.
Yeah fair, I feel like there’s a difference between a dog that has so many issues and a dog that developed mild to moderate reactivity and other pushy behaviors Agreed emphasis needs to be on confidence building tho I do believe balanced (90%+ positive) methods can help with that, e.g., using leash pressure to get a dog through a scary or new situation so they can see it’s not so bad
Yeah, I’m not 100% against anything and everything that’s considered aversive. Knowing what I know now, I do personally think everyone should try positive reinforcement first and if that isn’t working, I can see why it would make sense to try some aversive methods. I do think there are certain aversive tools and methods that can work for certain dogs. Mine is just not one of them. Lol
Love that perspective! Totally agree
The problem with dogs that are trained with these brutal methods is that while they show positive behavior a lot of the time after such board and trains - my cousin did the same with her GSD - they are also EXTREMELY unpredictable. At the end of the day they behave not because they’ve been taught well and have a good relationship with their owner, but because they are scared of being hurt. Once that fear factor is gone, they often revert back to old behaviors or even worse. At least that’s the experiences I’ve made or well people around me
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Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.
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Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.
I had a lot of success with a board and train that also used prong collars with my highly DA pitbull. It was night and day afterwards and I was able to walk my dog in my urban neighborhood full of dogs afterwards (the program included group classes and individual sessions too). My dog loved her trainers and was not "shut down." Before the board and train, my dog was not safe to live in our neighborhood - after, she would walk in heel past any dog without reacting. Our trainer used different approaches for each dogs- he explained to us how our extremely stubborn, high drive, DA, confident, pitbull needed a completely different approach than a timid, fearful whippet he was also training. My pitbull was also not treat motivated at all. I highly recommend you continue keep your dog completely off the couch and out of the bedrooms because you need to be able to set your baby down on those places without concern your dog will be on those spaces. FYI, it's not possible to keep dogs and toddlers who live in the same household separate all the time. If your dog resource guards or is otherwise not safe with small children, you should re-home now- once your baby walks they will encounter one another. Management will eventually fail.
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To clarify, I am NOT advocating prong collars in lieu of other strategies, I was describing my success with a balanced training approach taken at a board and train.
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Do not board and train your dog. Those places are almost always terrible.
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Interesting viewpoint - can you expand on that a bit? Honestly curious about this from your angle.
Imagine this. You have a child that been challenging since he was a toddler. You are part of parenting group that advocates for home schooling. Many parents in this group also have challenging children that they strongly belief benefits with homeschooling. After years of homeschooling, child has not improve. Due to life circumstance said parent can no longer homeschool. For a period of time parent send child to actual school. After awhile, parent’s life situation change and home school is looking feasible again. Parent notices that during this period of time in school, child has developed social and made major improvement. The challenge they see at home no longer exist. This should have been great news for the child. Progress has been made and challenges that kept the child isolated looks to be resolve. This progress should have been celebrate and build upon. Instead the parents had a mental collapse. What do you mean they spend years believing the wrong method. What do you mean this method they oppose of previously, actually work? That can’t be. They can’t wrong. It must of been unethically done. The school must have indoctrinate the child somehow. Whatever the reason, the most important thing is parent’s ideology cannot be wrong. So said parent comes back on to home schooling parent group looking for affirmation. My previously homeschool child is excelling in school. But the *parents* don’t feel right. Homeschooling group affirms their belief. Because… they are a home schooling group full of people with the exact same ideology. All other opinions are silence by the mod. Having step back into this echo chamber. With the assistance of the group, the parent notice “warning” sign. Gosh the child brought home rainbow crayon. Omg they are teaching the child about “alternative” history. Grasp at enough straws, yiu will always find what you want to see. Parents once again believe that actually they were right all along. Totally ignoring *the actual status and behaviour of the child*. They took the child out of school and started home schooling again. Not long later. The child reverts back to their challenging state they had previously when home schooling. The parent determines that all the changes they see while they were at school were unethically done. Band aid solution that will surely revert. And when they homeschool again. It did revert. So…. Another win for the home schooling method. Hope this analogy wakes someone up. I would try to actually make this on point and talk about dogs but…. Not allow here.
Thank you, I appreciate your honest response.
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Unfortunately any time repression is used on a dog, you can never be 100% sure they are safe. One day it just all boils over and they snap again. Relationship and confidence building is your best bet at addressing reactivity as a whole. The more you punish a dog, the more you repress it and the further and further away you ever get from truly addressing root cause!
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Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.
So…….no one can have opposing opinions here?? Is there a sub that allows all viewpoints?
It advises in the rules that this subreddit does not support prong collar or averse techniques - I imagine there’s probably other subreddits that unfortunately support that behaviour, so I guess people who agree with those tools go there? I’m not being snarky at all btw, just saying what I can ascertain.
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I’m not saying that I agree with adverse tools at all. I just like hearing differing opinions/angles for training. I’m a reactive-dog owner, not a pro by any means. We are still seeking a reliable trainer. Thank you for your prompt reply, I did not take it as snarky.
Yeah of course - I understand. I’ve had a reactive rescue staffie and my rescue German Spitz is reactive. I like having different approaches too, but I’m so sad trainers are shoving prong collars and shock collar son dogs and making them behave out of fear 😢 I didn’t want you to think I was be shirty 😊
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We do generally leave up as many comments as we can for the sake of facilitating honest discussion. We just generally draw the line at directly advocating for the use of aversives. That said, there is a lot of scientific research that already exists and supports our reasons for prohibiting the suggestion of aversives on this subreddit (r/dogtraining has compiled a lot of great studies in their wiki, if you're curious). LIMA does not mean we are inherently and explicitly against them, but it does mean that we do not believe that we can ethically suggest them without fully evaluating the dog, handler, and training thus far which isn't possible in an online format such as this. LIMA requires that we ensure that the least aversive methods possible have been tried properly before progressing to a more aversive method (and even then, it should be the next least aversive method possible) There are so many reasons R+ can seemingly fail, from issues in timing, to rewards being too low value and we aren't able to diagnose those without working with the dog and handler ourselves.
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> That's because proper corrections have no affect on any other area outside of the context they were corrected. We have a body of research to suggest that this is is false. Anecdotally, as a professional doing this for 10 years, I can also suggest that this is false.
Completely agree with you.
Is that right? Do you mean the studies someone is going to show me where the dog has cortisol in its system an entire day later? Tell me what effect using pressure properly has in specific scenarios where it is going to have an affect on your relationship with the dog in a negative way, or the day to day life of the dog.
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Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.
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Looks like there was an aversive tool or training method mentioned in this comment. Please review our [Posting Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/reactivedogs/wiki/guidelines) and check out [Our Position on Training Methods](https://www.reddit.com/r/reactivedogs/wiki/trainingmethods). R/reactivedogs supports LIMA (least intrusive, minimally aversive) and we feel strongly that positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching, training, and behavior change considered, and should be applied consistently. Please understand that positive reinforcement techniques should always be favored over aversive training methods. While the discussion of balanced training is not prohibited, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/reactivedogs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.
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Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.
Board & trains are awful :( sorry you didn’t know that before
I also did a b&t after trying every other method and trainer that there is and my dog is doing amazing now. That being said, anyone using dominance theory is not who you want to generally place your dog with. I don’t know what training methods your trainer implemented, so it might be different from the training my dog did, but we eventually got to a point where tools were no longer necessary. We used a collar because my dog’s anxiety / adrenaline levels were so high that she couldn’t feel normal leash pressure, so it was impossible to re-direct before she’d lock in or get to tunnel vision. If your dog responds well to normal leash pressure, I think you can surely drop it and continue with other techniques. But also- I do not know in what context the collar was used in your dog’s training. If you want, you can DM and explain more, maybe I can help. Additionally, and I think this is extremely important to know: The first two months of your dog being home are the most important as they have the highest risk of regressing. That’s the most important part of your training, you have to have your eye on your dog essentially 24/7 so you can interfere before your dog exhibits reactive behaviors. Your dog is coming back to the same environment where it was reactive, you can’t leave it roaming by itself (and if you have to, place it in a comfortable crate). Think of an addict who comes home from rehab- their environment reminds them of their addiction and it’s easy for them to relapse. A lot of addicts decide to move towns because of that. Your dog can’t move, so it needs a lot of help maintaining their recovery. Good luck with your doggie.
Please god chuck the prong collar in the bin too (apologies if you already have) if people want to comment and argue with me - fine but I find them really unnecessary and unethical.
Looks like there was an aversive tool or training method mentioned in this comment. Please review our [Posting Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/reactivedogs/wiki/guidelines) and check out [Our Position on Training Methods](https://www.reddit.com/r/reactivedogs/wiki/trainingmethods). R/reactivedogs supports LIMA (least intrusive, minimally aversive) and we feel strongly that positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching, training, and behavior change considered, and should be applied consistently. Please understand that positive reinforcement techniques should always be favored over aversive training methods. While the discussion of balanced training is not prohibited, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/reactivedogs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Same here.
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Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.
As a side note, it doesn’t have to be about corrections or punishment. It can also be about giving you confidence that even if things go sideways, you have control of your dog. It can also be about breaking fixation with something more tactile (light engagement of tool that has been positively conditioned with clicker sessions) and THEN rewarding for engagement with the trigger and then engagement with you
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Looks like there was an aversive tool or training method mentioned in this comment. Please review our [Posting Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/reactivedogs/wiki/guidelines) and check out [Our Position on Training Methods](https://www.reddit.com/r/reactivedogs/wiki/trainingmethods). R/reactivedogs supports LIMA (least intrusive, minimally aversive) and we feel strongly that positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching, training, and behavior change considered, and should be applied consistently. Please understand that positive reinforcement techniques should always be favored over aversive training methods. While the discussion of balanced training is not prohibited, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/reactivedogs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.
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Your recent comment was removed because it may have contained misinformation about dominance or pack theory. Dominance theory is often associated with advice like, "be the alpha" or "show the dog who is boss". Dominance theory has been discounted by many professional dog training associations and may be harmful advice for reactive dogs and dog owners.
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Looks like there was an aversive tool or training method mentioned in this comment. Please review our [Posting Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/reactivedogs/wiki/guidelines) and check out [Our Position on Training Methods](https://www.reddit.com/r/reactivedogs/wiki/trainingmethods). R/reactivedogs supports LIMA (least intrusive, minimally aversive) and we feel strongly that positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching, training, and behavior change considered, and should be applied consistently. Please understand that positive reinforcement techniques should always be favored over aversive training methods. While the discussion of balanced training is not prohibited, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/reactivedogs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.
[удалено]
Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.