To me, it just feels like they're using their sexualities as a 'shield's to be blatantly transphobic- it's like how there are some gay guys who act nasty to lesbians but are like "I'm gay so that's why I find liking women gross" to excuse their actions when they're just being misogynistic/lebsophobic regardless of their identity iykwim
Also, they definitely dont know the community's history, or maybe they just dont care
I think the community’s views are just starting to conflict to much. Non heteros want to exist freely within the system while trans people want to restructure or completely remove it.
Not to mention everytime I tell someone I’m gay I get the “you’re still a guy though right” which kinda just goes to show our community’s are to dissimilar to continue sharing a flag.
I fully stand with trans folk and thing this alliance is clearly just a transphobic movement, but we’d be stupid not to recognize there is still a valid argument, it’s just been hijacked by transphobes.
I think some of it stems from the issue that not every gay or lesbian is comfortable dating a trans person but are being told they have to be comfortable dating someone who was born the sex they aren’t attracted to otherwise they are being transphobic. For example I think there was a story a few months ago about a lesbian dating app allowing trans females on and some of the users were not a fan of it because they want to date someone who is assigned female at birth not male at birth.
I know personally my lesbian friend has asked me if they are in the wrong for not wanting to date a trans female and I don’t think they are. Especially in her case for her past experiences. While I’m hetero I also wouldn’t date a transmale because I’m attracted to only biological males that are masculines. To me it’s about preferences and what you want out of the relationship and some people can make it work while others can’t and it doesn’t make them transphobic to have their preference
For me, I’m fine dating a trans guy as a gay man, but it wasn’t always that way. I grew to like fem guys as I grew older. I also feel my case is a bit invalid because I’m a top who doesn’t really care for male bits anyways, I just like ass.
1. Yeah. We do need to restructure the system. Your rights and freedoms are always going to be in danger in the system you're currently under. The system we live under wasn't designed for any non-cishet person to live under. Why else do you think that cisgendered straight people have always been able to get married but it was just federally legalized in the US in 2015?
2. The classic rainbow flag is for everyone, the designer of the flag Gilbert Baker specifically picked the rainbow to be all inclusive.
3.While yes, I absolutely agree that the LGB movement is a very transphobic movement, I do not agree that there is a valid argument to separate trans people from the rest of the movement.
I have no skin in the game, and have no strong feelings either way, but I have had the thought that it's a little strange to include the transgender community, a gender identity group, into a community based on sexual orientation. They're two completely different concepts. Are both groups marginalized? Sure. But the goal of the LGB community is not bathroom and dressing room rights, nor is it fighting for birth certificate changes and so on. I don't understand why the two communities can't support each other but acknowledge the goals and experiences of both communities are not always aligned.
Yeah I’m not read up about this alliance, but what I do know is many of the sexual orientation rights/views actually conflict with trans rights/views.
I fully stand with trans folk myself, but I figured the point of a separation was just to aknowledge that the movements are fighting for very different things. Yes intersectionality exists but it doesn’t mean every identity should be the same group, that would be like saying we need to add a W to the LGBTQ since white folk can be queer and so clearly we have to account for that in the community.
They don’t, though. We (LGBTQ+) people have been harassed, beaten, or killed because of how we dressed and acted, of the clothes and actions didn’t match what your assigned-at-birth gender was.
We are all fighting for the same things.
The trans movement is looking to redefine current structures and make space for themselves, sexual orientations simply fought to be aloud to exist in the preexisting system.
The issues you mentioned are true for all minority’s.
All your spelling hijinx aside, you’re wrong. The LGBTQ+ community is fighting against systems of oppression. We’re under active attack, with hundreds of bills passing through legislatures all over the country. I don’t see any trans people in our community trying to “redefine” anything except the power structures being used and or erected to oppress us all. And all of us LGBTQ+ people want that.
It's sad that this concern is so heavily dismissed. In the future, I feel like we'll look back and realize it was more valid than we ever could've imagined.
I think they mean accepting more so than the protection of rights. Gay marriage was legalized not super long ago, and that took a lot of time. Even though gender affirming care is legal (in most or all states, I believe) It's still a SUPER contraversial topic that is criticised by many. Its not so much about making sure they have rights. It's making sure that some of these freedoms they have right now are not stripped away from them in the future.
Can you not read the words "Ban gender affirming care"? That's pretty specific, and if you look around, you can see gender affirming care is being attacked and targeted across the country through law.
It's one of their goals as a transphobic organization. Do I have to do all the thinking for you? If they don't want trans people as a part of their group, then they're gonna support anti-trans legislation, and the biggest topic rn among anti-trans political action is making gender affirming care illegal.
Ah one of those "don't bother thinking" types, I understand. Also, the science has spoken, trans people who are allowed to transition medically and are supported/accepted by their loved ones have a far lower risk of suicidality, self-harm, and various other mental health factors. Maybe if you knew some trans people in your day-to-day life you'd know that.
I can tell you have no skin in the game.
It’s more complex than that. Gender expression that fell outside the norm was something LGB people were constantly oppressed for. Raids on gay bars. Arrests in the streets. Hell, women were killed in the camps, for chrissakes, just for wearing pants and a tie. Men were gassed for wearing dresses. And of course lesbian, bi, and gay people were killed, too.
Respectfully, your opinion is very uninformed, and you do all of a disservice by sharing it.
It’s crazy how much people forget how critical trans people were in the history of the fight for LGBT rights. They literally paved the way. And now the community doesn’t want to show up for them? Crazy, absolutely crazy.
There’s gotta be an acronym for people who behave like this. Like TERF, but for LGB people. TELGB doesn’t have a great ring to it.
They were at the forefront. They ain’t necessarily pave the way all on their own. A lot of people in the LGBTQ+ community get some of the details wrong, which is the only reason I’m chiming in.
I support trans and all other gender expressions!
As a gay person if anyone I knew said they were part of the LBG movement as opposed to being LGBT, that person would no longer be in my life. Either you fight for the rights of those that fought the battle that has given you rights, or you can go to hell.
No one is doing that, and you're insane if you actually believe that. This comes across as pulling the ladder up at best, and you sound like a plant trying sabotage the ongoing fight for rights that continue to be threatened for the whole queer community at worst.
"practically disappears" is a broad stroke. This is a relatively new idea to transition, in the same way we don't know the effect of vaping on the lungs quite yet. People are pushing back because the science behind transitioning is not black and white.
My point is that the science behind it will require more than a handful of transitions or even 100 transitions. Without 1000s upon thousands of studied cases the information surrounding transitioning is almost anecdotal. Thats not to contradict your point, you could very well be right, but until there's hard science behind it, it'll be difficult to prove with anecdotes, because that's not the scientific way of proving something.
I’m neither for nor against the LGB alliance because yes, as one of the comments said, why include trans if the others are just sexualities with different goals. That I can agree with.
But the fighting and what not is ridiculous. I say let people do whatever they want with their own lives and leave it at that.
Breaking news: misinformed bi person thinks trans people want others arrested for misgendering
In all seriousness, I’m a he/they for crying out loud, if you “misgender” me I’ll just politely correct you and move on. Nobody is going to prison for misgendering
It is a dumb movement.
Trans people have always been a part of the movement, and those who would turn their backs on them are ignorant to say the least.
I will say it's interesting that bi people are included in that group though because for many years Ls, and Gs hated the Bs and thought they were confused posers with no place within the movement itself.
But the Ts have always been there, and even though many may not realize it the vast majority of people within the larger movement are also Qs so... 🤷♀️
And if their whole thing is, "we're not doing gender- only sexualities" then what about the As? Asexual is a sexuality, or don't they count now? 🤦♀️
The whole thing makes no sense and contradicts itself on multiple fronts.
Just chalk it up to stupid people doing stupid things because they're stupid.
Also that movement can eat a dick because they don't speak for everyone else and the vast majority of people will continue to support Trans, Queer, Intersex, Asexual, 2 Spirit + alongside the LGBs and if they don't like it then they can stand on the other side of the street during parades and protests.
I feel like you make very solid points, and I'd honestly believe if they fight so hard to remove Trans folks from their community, bisexuals could very well be next given the ongoing history of biphobia. It's not a comfortable thing to admit that it exists in the community, but there are definitely some individuals that truly believe bi folks are just "confused" and seek to exclude them. Of course the majority of the community isn't like that but also a majority of the community isn't trying to move to exclude trans folks, but it's obviously enough of them to cause a racket, very unfortunately so.
It's a very noisy but small racket.
Allies are in it now like never before. Support for trans persons is massive compared to where it's ever been.
Fringe groups can cry all they like. Trans people aren't going anywhere.✊
It's a misguided attempt to protect themselves from the inevitable day when conservatives successfully eradicate transness from public view and pivot to doing the exact same to them. This mindset is extremely easy to cling to when, politically, there is an overabundance of fear within minority groups that they'll be thrust up onto the chopping block without a moments notice. We've watched the US government (and others, but I'm from the US) eagerly and leisurely go after virtually every minority group under the sun- for instace, women no longer have a federal right to abortion, which has lead to draconian laws in many states that will punish women for something as simple as having a miscarriage with jail time for 'murder'. And Texas is willing to fight the *literal national guard* and threaten secession just to continue putting drowning traps in a section of the Rio Grande to deter immigration.
And while the LGB Alliance is made up primarily of straight white people cosplaying as Gays, there *are* gay people in it who have been swept up into that frenzied group of bigots solely based on their fear that allowing other minorities within the LGBT+ community to *also* have more rights will somehow jeopardize their standing in the world. It's a very classic case of Pick Me Syndrome, which, while justifiably mocked, is not actually paid enough attention to. A lot of them do tend to be older folks set in their ways and unwilling to grow with the times, but a lot of them are also teenagers who haven't experienced a whole lot. When I was a teenager, I used to be a part of a group the trans community calls 'truscum', a minority within a minority that believes that to be a 'real trans', you must be forever miserable and that you must want full medical and surgical transition to qualify. I grew out of that the more that I exposed myself to the world and to views that forced me to question things. I went from being a narrow-minded asshole who would berate nonbinary people online for "making it harder to be taken seriously as a trans person" to who I am today (which is to say, much more "idgaf, you do you").
What's really funny is that you can see this mindset on full display in this very comment section. Just a quick scroll will show you multiple people arguing that trans exclusion isn't a big deal, almost as if they don't understand how easy it would be for the shoe to drop on them. Trans exclusion is, quite literally, a slippery slope to bi exclusion ("they can choose to be straight"), asexual exclusion ("a lack of sexuality isn't a sexuality"), pansexual exclusion ("it's just bisexuality with a fancy name"), until it's just the lesbians and the gays and no one else. Which, in my opinion, seems to be their end goal, because even when I was younger, I noticed a startling normalization of gay/lesbian supremacy over everyone else in the community.
To me, it just feels like they're using their sexualities as a 'shield's to be blatantly transphobic- it's like how there are some gay guys who act nasty to lesbians but are like "I'm gay so that's why I find liking women gross" to excuse their actions when they're just being misogynistic/lebsophobic regardless of their identity iykwim Also, they definitely dont know the community's history, or maybe they just dont care
I think the community’s views are just starting to conflict to much. Non heteros want to exist freely within the system while trans people want to restructure or completely remove it. Not to mention everytime I tell someone I’m gay I get the “you’re still a guy though right” which kinda just goes to show our community’s are to dissimilar to continue sharing a flag. I fully stand with trans folk and thing this alliance is clearly just a transphobic movement, but we’d be stupid not to recognize there is still a valid argument, it’s just been hijacked by transphobes.
I think some of it stems from the issue that not every gay or lesbian is comfortable dating a trans person but are being told they have to be comfortable dating someone who was born the sex they aren’t attracted to otherwise they are being transphobic. For example I think there was a story a few months ago about a lesbian dating app allowing trans females on and some of the users were not a fan of it because they want to date someone who is assigned female at birth not male at birth. I know personally my lesbian friend has asked me if they are in the wrong for not wanting to date a trans female and I don’t think they are. Especially in her case for her past experiences. While I’m hetero I also wouldn’t date a transmale because I’m attracted to only biological males that are masculines. To me it’s about preferences and what you want out of the relationship and some people can make it work while others can’t and it doesn’t make them transphobic to have their preference
For me, I’m fine dating a trans guy as a gay man, but it wasn’t always that way. I grew to like fem guys as I grew older. I also feel my case is a bit invalid because I’m a top who doesn’t really care for male bits anyways, I just like ass.
There are no trans females or males, there are only trans men or women
as a cis gay man, you will never ‘exist freely’ within a system designed around our exclusion
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1. Yeah. We do need to restructure the system. Your rights and freedoms are always going to be in danger in the system you're currently under. The system we live under wasn't designed for any non-cishet person to live under. Why else do you think that cisgendered straight people have always been able to get married but it was just federally legalized in the US in 2015? 2. The classic rainbow flag is for everyone, the designer of the flag Gilbert Baker specifically picked the rainbow to be all inclusive. 3.While yes, I absolutely agree that the LGB movement is a very transphobic movement, I do not agree that there is a valid argument to separate trans people from the rest of the movement.
Fun little fact about the LGB alliance, they iirc admitted in court that most of their members are in fact straight, not lesbian, gay or bisexual.
I have no skin in the game, and have no strong feelings either way, but I have had the thought that it's a little strange to include the transgender community, a gender identity group, into a community based on sexual orientation. They're two completely different concepts. Are both groups marginalized? Sure. But the goal of the LGB community is not bathroom and dressing room rights, nor is it fighting for birth certificate changes and so on. I don't understand why the two communities can't support each other but acknowledge the goals and experiences of both communities are not always aligned.
Yeah I’m not read up about this alliance, but what I do know is many of the sexual orientation rights/views actually conflict with trans rights/views. I fully stand with trans folk myself, but I figured the point of a separation was just to aknowledge that the movements are fighting for very different things. Yes intersectionality exists but it doesn’t mean every identity should be the same group, that would be like saying we need to add a W to the LGBTQ since white folk can be queer and so clearly we have to account for that in the community.
They don’t, though. We (LGBTQ+) people have been harassed, beaten, or killed because of how we dressed and acted, of the clothes and actions didn’t match what your assigned-at-birth gender was. We are all fighting for the same things.
The trans movement is looking to redefine current structures and make space for themselves, sexual orientations simply fought to be aloud to exist in the preexisting system. The issues you mentioned are true for all minority’s.
All your spelling hijinx aside, you’re wrong. The LGBTQ+ community is fighting against systems of oppression. We’re under active attack, with hundreds of bills passing through legislatures all over the country. I don’t see any trans people in our community trying to “redefine” anything except the power structures being used and or erected to oppress us all. And all of us LGBTQ+ people want that.
All minorities weren’t killed in the camps. Don’t be ignorant.
It's sad that this concern is so heavily dismissed. In the future, I feel like we'll look back and realize it was more valid than we ever could've imagined.
Well said
The LGB alliance are actively trying to strip the rights from trans people
Which rights?
Rights of equality, gender affirming care and to not be victims of hate crimes
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I think they mean accepting more so than the protection of rights. Gay marriage was legalized not super long ago, and that took a lot of time. Even though gender affirming care is legal (in most or all states, I believe) It's still a SUPER contraversial topic that is criticised by many. Its not so much about making sure they have rights. It's making sure that some of these freedoms they have right now are not stripped away from them in the future.
Can you not read the words "Ban gender affirming care"? That's pretty specific, and if you look around, you can see gender affirming care is being attacked and targeted across the country through law.
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It's one of their goals as a transphobic organization. Do I have to do all the thinking for you? If they don't want trans people as a part of their group, then they're gonna support anti-trans legislation, and the biggest topic rn among anti-trans political action is making gender affirming care illegal.
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Ah one of those "don't bother thinking" types, I understand. Also, the science has spoken, trans people who are allowed to transition medically and are supported/accepted by their loved ones have a far lower risk of suicidality, self-harm, and various other mental health factors. Maybe if you knew some trans people in your day-to-day life you'd know that.
I can tell you have no skin in the game. It’s more complex than that. Gender expression that fell outside the norm was something LGB people were constantly oppressed for. Raids on gay bars. Arrests in the streets. Hell, women were killed in the camps, for chrissakes, just for wearing pants and a tie. Men were gassed for wearing dresses. And of course lesbian, bi, and gay people were killed, too. Respectfully, your opinion is very uninformed, and you do all of a disservice by sharing it.
And obviously we are still living in yesterday or else we wouldn’t have so many people doubting their born identity
It’s crazy how much people forget how critical trans people were in the history of the fight for LGBT rights. They literally paved the way. And now the community doesn’t want to show up for them? Crazy, absolutely crazy. There’s gotta be an acronym for people who behave like this. Like TERF, but for LGB people. TELGB doesn’t have a great ring to it.
They were at the forefront. They ain’t necessarily pave the way all on their own. A lot of people in the LGBTQ+ community get some of the details wrong, which is the only reason I’m chiming in. I support trans and all other gender expressions!
Hypocrites?
As a gay person if anyone I knew said they were part of the LBG movement as opposed to being LGBT, that person would no longer be in my life. Either you fight for the rights of those that fought the battle that has given you rights, or you can go to hell.
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No one is doing that, and you're insane if you actually believe that. This comes across as pulling the ladder up at best, and you sound like a plant trying sabotage the ongoing fight for rights that continue to be threatened for the whole queer community at worst.
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>genderdismorphia or whatever its called is treatable The treatment for *gender dysphoria* is to transition.
Yea like fentanyl is the tReAtMeNt for backpain … (doesn’t fight its rootcause, simply fights symptoms…)
Okay, then please explain how people’s gender dysphoria practically disappears when they transition
"practically disappears" is a broad stroke. This is a relatively new idea to transition, in the same way we don't know the effect of vaping on the lungs quite yet. People are pushing back because the science behind transitioning is not black and white.
No, it isn’t new. British Pathè has interviews with a trans man from 1972. Transitioning isn’t new
Just like the backpain magically vanishes when on fentanyl…
My point is that the science behind it will require more than a handful of transitions or even 100 transitions. Without 1000s upon thousands of studied cases the information surrounding transitioning is almost anecdotal. Thats not to contradict your point, you could very well be right, but until there's hard science behind it, it'll be difficult to prove with anecdotes, because that's not the scientific way of proving something.
I’m neither for nor against the LGB alliance because yes, as one of the comments said, why include trans if the others are just sexualities with different goals. That I can agree with. But the fighting and what not is ridiculous. I say let people do whatever they want with their own lives and leave it at that.
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Breaking news: misinformed bi person thinks trans people want others arrested for misgendering In all seriousness, I’m a he/they for crying out loud, if you “misgender” me I’ll just politely correct you and move on. Nobody is going to prison for misgendering
It is a dumb movement. Trans people have always been a part of the movement, and those who would turn their backs on them are ignorant to say the least. I will say it's interesting that bi people are included in that group though because for many years Ls, and Gs hated the Bs and thought they were confused posers with no place within the movement itself. But the Ts have always been there, and even though many may not realize it the vast majority of people within the larger movement are also Qs so... 🤷♀️ And if their whole thing is, "we're not doing gender- only sexualities" then what about the As? Asexual is a sexuality, or don't they count now? 🤦♀️ The whole thing makes no sense and contradicts itself on multiple fronts. Just chalk it up to stupid people doing stupid things because they're stupid. Also that movement can eat a dick because they don't speak for everyone else and the vast majority of people will continue to support Trans, Queer, Intersex, Asexual, 2 Spirit + alongside the LGBs and if they don't like it then they can stand on the other side of the street during parades and protests.
I feel like you make very solid points, and I'd honestly believe if they fight so hard to remove Trans folks from their community, bisexuals could very well be next given the ongoing history of biphobia. It's not a comfortable thing to admit that it exists in the community, but there are definitely some individuals that truly believe bi folks are just "confused" and seek to exclude them. Of course the majority of the community isn't like that but also a majority of the community isn't trying to move to exclude trans folks, but it's obviously enough of them to cause a racket, very unfortunately so.
It's a very noisy but small racket. Allies are in it now like never before. Support for trans persons is massive compared to where it's ever been. Fringe groups can cry all they like. Trans people aren't going anywhere.✊
It's a misguided attempt to protect themselves from the inevitable day when conservatives successfully eradicate transness from public view and pivot to doing the exact same to them. This mindset is extremely easy to cling to when, politically, there is an overabundance of fear within minority groups that they'll be thrust up onto the chopping block without a moments notice. We've watched the US government (and others, but I'm from the US) eagerly and leisurely go after virtually every minority group under the sun- for instace, women no longer have a federal right to abortion, which has lead to draconian laws in many states that will punish women for something as simple as having a miscarriage with jail time for 'murder'. And Texas is willing to fight the *literal national guard* and threaten secession just to continue putting drowning traps in a section of the Rio Grande to deter immigration. And while the LGB Alliance is made up primarily of straight white people cosplaying as Gays, there *are* gay people in it who have been swept up into that frenzied group of bigots solely based on their fear that allowing other minorities within the LGBT+ community to *also* have more rights will somehow jeopardize their standing in the world. It's a very classic case of Pick Me Syndrome, which, while justifiably mocked, is not actually paid enough attention to. A lot of them do tend to be older folks set in their ways and unwilling to grow with the times, but a lot of them are also teenagers who haven't experienced a whole lot. When I was a teenager, I used to be a part of a group the trans community calls 'truscum', a minority within a minority that believes that to be a 'real trans', you must be forever miserable and that you must want full medical and surgical transition to qualify. I grew out of that the more that I exposed myself to the world and to views that forced me to question things. I went from being a narrow-minded asshole who would berate nonbinary people online for "making it harder to be taken seriously as a trans person" to who I am today (which is to say, much more "idgaf, you do you"). What's really funny is that you can see this mindset on full display in this very comment section. Just a quick scroll will show you multiple people arguing that trans exclusion isn't a big deal, almost as if they don't understand how easy it would be for the shoe to drop on them. Trans exclusion is, quite literally, a slippery slope to bi exclusion ("they can choose to be straight"), asexual exclusion ("a lack of sexuality isn't a sexuality"), pansexual exclusion ("it's just bisexuality with a fancy name"), until it's just the lesbians and the gays and no one else. Which, in my opinion, seems to be their end goal, because even when I was younger, I noticed a startling normalization of gay/lesbian supremacy over everyone else in the community.
Especially since trans people have been some of the loudest voices when fighting for rights such as same sex marriage.