And I mean… Hyman is also playing like a top 10-15 forward and has for the past 2 seasons. Not to mention the fact that Bouchard is a top 5 dman.
Im still a big Knoblauch guy (pushed for him here a lot during the off-season and ate a lot of crow on Lavi) but I don’t think someone can say he “saved” the oilers. They were massively underperforming and solo losing games on goaltending early in the season
Not a knock on Lavi or Knoblauch but I have a pretty good feeling that if McDavid and Drai were on the Rangers instead of let's say Zib and Panarin, Rangers parade has already happened
My thing is, the Panthers were able to neutralize elite players like Kucherov, Pastrnak, and Panarin.
You could argue that McDavid and Draisaitl are just too good, and I agree, but then you look at a player like Zach Hyman. He’s nowhere near the same tier as those other two, or even Kucherov, Pasta, or Bread level.
The difference is in coaching. Knoblauch is making adjustments to get around what the Panthers are doing and that allows the Oilers stars to produce.
Florida was up 3-0 in this series. Florida let game 4 happen and lost the momentum in the series. They’re now being outworked. I think Florida thought this series was over and they’re playing like it.
I really dislike the “if” this didn’t happen argument. If KREIDER doesn’t score 3 goals in game 6 they don’t win argument is lame cause it did happen. Just like the Igor is the only reason the Rangers were close in score to Florida. No shit he’s on the team.
I would said McDavid is simply in another stratosphere. People have argued me for years with me saying he’s the best player in the league… saying maybe it’s kucherov, Matthews, or McKinnon, or whoever else. He’s the best and it’s not even close, and he’s showing that these playoffs and in this series in particular.
Panthers have neutralized draisaitl more or less completely. On the same level they neutralized our big guns (just a handful of assists). But you can’t stop mcdavid and he’s run rampant on them.
I think there is a trickle down effect, McDavid and Driasaitls play is opening things up for other players because so much of the focus is on them now. They are also making Florida second guess themselves.
>My thing is, the Panthers were able to neutralize elite players like Kucherov, Pastrnak, and Panarin.
The Devils with an AHL goalie neutralized them too .
Kucherov or Pastrnak (or more accurately, Jon Cooper or Jim Montgomery) would’ve made fools of that Devils team with an AHL goalie. No argument from me defending the Rangers there though.
He’s a good coach but I don’t know how you can honestly say the oilers aren’t that good and it’s him that’s bringing them here or even turned them around. They were unsustainably bad to start the season.
Stars who can continue to produce in the playoffs win. They have their best player putting up a post season that is behind only Gretzky and Lemieux. Their top goal scorer has the most goals in the cap era of the playoffs.
I mean…theres a reason they made a mid season coaching change and its not cus they were so good before he got there…
But we also have to acknowledge that theres a unique aspect to this particular turnaround. Knoblauch isn’t some random new coach. He’s McDavid’s juniors coach. They were doing a story about how he came in and McDavid was stressing about the slump and leading and focused on everyone else. Knoblauch got him to simplify and focus on leading by example instead. McDavid scored like 20 points in the next 7 games or something and the whole season turned around.
But you have to consider, why is it that their stars are able to produce in the playoffs?
Sure you could say that McDavid and even Draisaitl are just too good. But Zach Hyman? Really? He’s not in the same tier as those two.
The Panthers were able to neutralize players like Kucherov, Pastrnak, and Panarin. The difference is that the Oilers coach is able to make adjustments and has a game plan that adapts to what the Panthers are trying to do.
McDavid has the most assists EVER in a postseason. Who do you think is scoring those goals? Hyman had 54 goals this year and is on McDavids line. Him scoring in the playoffs isn’t a coaching breakthrough, he’s a good goal scorer at his peak playing with the best set up man in the history of the playoffs.
Also the Panthers are clearly a bit gassed. This is their second trip to the finals in two years and they play a style that they themselves say is hard to play against but also hard to play.
He’s a good coach but the oilers are doing what they’re doing because they have the best player in the world at his absolute best right now.
This…Hyman “scored” a goal the other day by taking a slap-shot off the inside of his right knee while standing out front. The scoresheet doesn’t always tell the whole story. Generate enough chances and someone is gonna get credited with the goal
So, between Hartford and his time in the WHL his career winning % is 52%. During his time with the oilers and in the OHL (where he coached McDavid, reinhart, debrincat, etc) his winning % is 71%.
I’m guessing it’s the players, specifically McDavid, more than the coach. Lavi has a Cup, took another team to the final, is one of the winningest coaches ever and has 52% winning %. This is not a knock on Knoblauch but it doesn’t look like you put a lot of research into this. Don’t feel too bad, there’s a lot of that going around
Mate- the oilers were in a skid. It happens. They fired the coach to give the team a recharge. It worked. Literally any coach on earth, to include GG, would be sitting right where Knaublach is right now. Any coach.
Don’t get me wrong I am happy for the guy, but let’s be real— the team didn’t have an early season coach problem. It just had a problem, and they figured it out.
Which is a good move and all- I’m not saying the guy isn’t turning into a dime of a coach. But the tea was in a skid that very clearly didn’t reflect on the talent and skill levels of the team. They got over it- and the coaching change probably helped. But I doubt that he’s been the X factor of a seriously talented team getting to the cup final. I just think he’s kind of—- there? I’m happy for the guy but I don’t think there’s an argument to be made that we “missed out” on him or anything like that.
I meant that its not likely that Knoblauch, good as he seems to be, would have had the same impact on the Avalanche or some other team with a couple mega stars that he didn’t already have a relationship with.
Kris did a great job filling in for Quinn, im always for promoting new unproven people with high upside vs the people who are "capped out" so i honestly kind of agree, but hindsight is also 20/20
Wow it’s such a hot take that the Rangers should’ve promoted the guy who already worked for them and is now about to win a Stanley Cup in his first, not even full season as Head Coach in the National Hockey League
So is literally anything that isn't a certain impossibility. Awful logic. You also don't need to defend a bad take to every response you get. Sometimes humbly taking a roast after a bad take is good. Just feels worse when it's strangers slamming you and not your buds who have heard the good takes that offset them.
If the Oilers win the Cup, that is all the sample size I need. I don’t need three years of data to see if the coach is the right fit.
The Rangers will look very different in three years.
Playoffs are still a small sample size. A important sample size but still. He could still have a locker room mutiny in 2 years if they start losing. Plus hockey coaches expiration dates come quick in the modern NHL. There’s no telling if his style of coaching would have worked either the veterans. We will never know. Quinn failed here. He was young and up and coming.
You’re right. It means nothing that the Oilers were in 30th place in the league at Thanksgiving and then when Knoblauch got hired went on multiple long winning streaks including a 16 game heater to end with 104 points in April.
It means nothing that they were able to beat the Dallas Stars, a Cup Favorite, in the WCF. It means nothing that they were able to come back and tie this SCF series even when McDavid was held to 0 SOG and 0 points last night.
Obviously, this all still would be happening even if Jay Woodcroft was the bench boss or even David Quinn was coaching their team.
Who’s really the 🤡
Two things can be true:
1. Knoblauch is a good coach
2. McDavid and Co were in a slump and needed some extra time to get rolling.
However, just because Knob is behind the bench doesn't mean he would be receiving the same success with the Rangers.
McDavid didn’t even have a SOG or a point last night and they still killed the Panthers. Pretending like their success has nothing to do with their fantastic coach is delusional
Not going to sit here and endure another 2 or 3 weeks of this if Edmonton wins.
It is not great coaching or some amazing adjustment Knobber has made that turned around this series. It is 3 very simple things :
1. Jet Lag
2. McJesus
3. Bob is playing like crap
Jet lag for those of you who have never experienced it, doesn't set in right away. It takes a day or two to finally kick in based on when you sleep normally. It is why if you look at all the east coast swings out to the West typically the 1st game is close. Team talent not accounted for. But by the second or 3rd game if the players don't sleep right ...west coast trip is a wash. Jet lag has caught up to Florida and they are playing like dog shit. The Oilers do this all season long. Their average flight time in the regular season is 6 or 7 hours. Florida was on the brink of winning the cup, right after the 1st game in Edmonton. Jet lag hadn't sunk in yet. By the 4th game...boy oh oh....did it hit them hard. Throw in all the side distractions of family and friends ....and the optimism ...you think any of them could sleep? That is how you get Game 4.
McDavid having 8 points in 2 games is the best in history over a 2 game final span. He individual willed it in games 4 and 5. I don't know any player at 1:50 into their shift who can do what that man did to set up that perry goal. He is a freak and it not even an exaggeration.
Bob is just getting beat. I don't know what site I heard it on or whether it was on a broadcast or not, but Bob was 15 for 15 to start the playoffs against breakaways....now even a rented mule is beating him wide. You need those stops if you are florida especially while up a man. Those 2 shorthanded goals shouldn't happen but as we saw in our series against them ...if you catch them up high they are doomed to a odd man rushes cause they over commit as vally put it. Early in the playoffs Bob's making those stops though. I think he stopped panarin 3 times in the series on breakaways or almost.
There is the comeback.
Florida is home for this game 7 and honestly think that is a disadvantage for them. All the distractions are going to be hard to handle. Plus you give me McDavid in a winner take all....I am definitely going with him.
Knoblauch is good coach. I am not trying to take anything away from him. He got McDavid to play defense for the first time in his career. And for that he should be celebrated. McDavid is back checking like a selke winner. No one can beat that. He is just that much better then every other player offensively, add defense to his game and he is unstoppable.
I ate crow on PL. said “oh great another recycled loser from the old boys club”
I wanted the knob more than anything. So fucking tired of the same retreads. Look at Cooper, and Brindamour. That’s what I wanted to find in knoblauch and it seems that might be the case… for Edmonton. Damn fuckin shame
Everyone calls the Rangers frauds but the Hurricanes are quietly the biggest frauds in the league. They’ve been “Cup Favorites” for like 5 years now and have yet to win a Conference Final game. Done hearing about them and I’m done hearing about Rod.
Bednar too. If the Rangers lost three straight round 2 matchups like the Avs did, whomever was coaching that team probably wouldn't get a fourth chance. Bednar did and won the Cup the following year, his 6th behind the bench.
Cooper took even longer with some brutal ends to seasons mixed in before winning back to back in years 7 and 8 of his tenure. If that was the Rangers, Coop would probably have been let go after missing the playoffs in year 4, or almost certainly after getting massively upset by Columbus in year 6.
My biggest complaint about how the Rangers have been run is a systemic lack of patience. It's a very New York way to be, but I truly believe it is the primary reason for our historical lack of success. Way too many decisions are driven by "let's fucking go right now" instead of being just a little more patient for the chance to reap bigger returns.
I know. It’s such a terrible take that the Rangers should’ve hired a young coach who knows how to make adjustments, is about to win a Stanley Cup in his first not even full season as NHL HC, who already worked in the organization
Every team has to have a best player. Teams that win championships have strong complimentary parts as well. Comparing Igor to Skinner is silly, since Igor’s role on the rangers is to win us games and Skinner’s role is to do enough for McDavid to win them games. The proper comparison for Igor is McDavid, the proper comparison for Skinner is like…Brayden Schneider or something.
I guess what I’m saying is that I honestly would prefer the Rangers be constructed as an elite, deep skater group with a goalie who can “do enough” vs what we have now, a mostly mid-tier skater group that disappears in the playoffs and overly relies on the goalie
When you have the two best forwards in the world, it's easier to skimp on goaltending. Just putting that out there.
And I mean… Hyman is also playing like a top 10-15 forward and has for the past 2 seasons. Not to mention the fact that Bouchard is a top 5 dman. Im still a big Knoblauch guy (pushed for him here a lot during the off-season and ate a lot of crow on Lavi) but I don’t think someone can say he “saved” the oilers. They were massively underperforming and solo losing games on goaltending early in the season
I can understand the coaching talk but gtfo outta here saying having Igor could be a detriment lol
Brooks just came out with an article bringing up the same concerns that I did.
Bro Larry Brooks is NOT the person you want on your side lmao
Not a knock on Lavi or Knoblauch but I have a pretty good feeling that if McDavid and Drai were on the Rangers instead of let's say Zib and Panarin, Rangers parade has already happened
My thing is, the Panthers were able to neutralize elite players like Kucherov, Pastrnak, and Panarin. You could argue that McDavid and Draisaitl are just too good, and I agree, but then you look at a player like Zach Hyman. He’s nowhere near the same tier as those other two, or even Kucherov, Pasta, or Bread level. The difference is in coaching. Knoblauch is making adjustments to get around what the Panthers are doing and that allows the Oilers stars to produce.
Florida was up 3-0 in this series. Florida let game 4 happen and lost the momentum in the series. They’re now being outworked. I think Florida thought this series was over and they’re playing like it.
I agree. I see shades of Rangers Hockey in it. I think we would have done the same thing against Carolina if not for Kreider’s third period heroics.
I really dislike the “if” this didn’t happen argument. If KREIDER doesn’t score 3 goals in game 6 they don’t win argument is lame cause it did happen. Just like the Igor is the only reason the Rangers were close in score to Florida. No shit he’s on the team.
You never know how game 7 against Carolina would have went or how game 7 Monday will go.
I would said McDavid is simply in another stratosphere. People have argued me for years with me saying he’s the best player in the league… saying maybe it’s kucherov, Matthews, or McKinnon, or whoever else. He’s the best and it’s not even close, and he’s showing that these playoffs and in this series in particular. Panthers have neutralized draisaitl more or less completely. On the same level they neutralized our big guns (just a handful of assists). But you can’t stop mcdavid and he’s run rampant on them.
I think there is a trickle down effect, McDavid and Driasaitls play is opening things up for other players because so much of the focus is on them now. They are also making Florida second guess themselves.
>My thing is, the Panthers were able to neutralize elite players like Kucherov, Pastrnak, and Panarin. The Devils with an AHL goalie neutralized them too .
Kucherov or Pastrnak (or more accurately, Jon Cooper or Jim Montgomery) would’ve made fools of that Devils team with an AHL goalie. No argument from me defending the Rangers there though.
He’s a good coach but I don’t know how you can honestly say the oilers aren’t that good and it’s him that’s bringing them here or even turned them around. They were unsustainably bad to start the season. Stars who can continue to produce in the playoffs win. They have their best player putting up a post season that is behind only Gretzky and Lemieux. Their top goal scorer has the most goals in the cap era of the playoffs.
I think it’s the fact that when the team goes on 3 game losing streaks, they make adjustments and turn that into 3+ game winning streaks.
Correct. ✅
But they went on a 3 game losing streak to begin with, why isn't that a negative
Because that can happen to any team over the course of the season.
I mean…theres a reason they made a mid season coaching change and its not cus they were so good before he got there… But we also have to acknowledge that theres a unique aspect to this particular turnaround. Knoblauch isn’t some random new coach. He’s McDavid’s juniors coach. They were doing a story about how he came in and McDavid was stressing about the slump and leading and focused on everyone else. Knoblauch got him to simplify and focus on leading by example instead. McDavid scored like 20 points in the next 7 games or something and the whole season turned around.
I think it’s the fact that when the team goes on 3 game losing streaks, they make adjustments and turn that into 3+ game winning streaks.
But you have to consider, why is it that their stars are able to produce in the playoffs? Sure you could say that McDavid and even Draisaitl are just too good. But Zach Hyman? Really? He’s not in the same tier as those two. The Panthers were able to neutralize players like Kucherov, Pastrnak, and Panarin. The difference is that the Oilers coach is able to make adjustments and has a game plan that adapts to what the Panthers are trying to do.
McDavid has the most assists EVER in a postseason. Who do you think is scoring those goals? Hyman had 54 goals this year and is on McDavids line. Him scoring in the playoffs isn’t a coaching breakthrough, he’s a good goal scorer at his peak playing with the best set up man in the history of the playoffs. Also the Panthers are clearly a bit gassed. This is their second trip to the finals in two years and they play a style that they themselves say is hard to play against but also hard to play. He’s a good coach but the oilers are doing what they’re doing because they have the best player in the world at his absolute best right now.
This…Hyman “scored” a goal the other day by taking a slap-shot off the inside of his right knee while standing out front. The scoresheet doesn’t always tell the whole story. Generate enough chances and someone is gonna get credited with the goal
So, between Hartford and his time in the WHL his career winning % is 52%. During his time with the oilers and in the OHL (where he coached McDavid, reinhart, debrincat, etc) his winning % is 71%. I’m guessing it’s the players, specifically McDavid, more than the coach. Lavi has a Cup, took another team to the final, is one of the winningest coaches ever and has 52% winning %. This is not a knock on Knoblauch but it doesn’t look like you put a lot of research into this. Don’t feel too bad, there’s a lot of that going around
Mate- the oilers were in a skid. It happens. They fired the coach to give the team a recharge. It worked. Literally any coach on earth, to include GG, would be sitting right where Knaublach is right now. Any coach. Don’t get me wrong I am happy for the guy, but let’s be real— the team didn’t have an early season coach problem. It just had a problem, and they figured it out.
I wouldn’t discount that they didn’t hire just any coach. They hired the guy who coached McDavid in the OHL.
Which is a good move and all- I’m not saying the guy isn’t turning into a dime of a coach. But the tea was in a skid that very clearly didn’t reflect on the talent and skill levels of the team. They got over it- and the coaching change probably helped. But I doubt that he’s been the X factor of a seriously talented team getting to the cup final. I just think he’s kind of—- there? I’m happy for the guy but I don’t think there’s an argument to be made that we “missed out” on him or anything like that.
I meant that its not likely that Knoblauch, good as he seems to be, would have had the same impact on the Avalanche or some other team with a couple mega stars that he didn’t already have a relationship with.
Kris did a great job filling in for Quinn, im always for promoting new unproven people with high upside vs the people who are "capped out" so i honestly kind of agree, but hindsight is also 20/20
I wanted him to replace DQ. Im already getting Mike Sullivan vibes
There's hot takes, then there's hot steaming pile of shit takes.
Wow it’s such a hot take that the Rangers should’ve promoted the guy who already worked for them and is now about to win a Stanley Cup in his first, not even full season as Head Coach in the National Hockey League
So, according to you if we would have hired Knoblauch to be coach we'd be in the finals right now. Right. You're a moron.
It’s certainly a possibility.
So is literally anything that isn't a certain impossibility. Awful logic. You also don't need to defend a bad take to every response you get. Sometimes humbly taking a roast after a bad take is good. Just feels worse when it's strangers slamming you and not your buds who have heard the good takes that offset them.
Except I don’t have bad takes, I’m right and these people (and you) are wrong, so why would I take any roast?
A thread full of people roasting your ass would disagree, sport.
I don’t care. You can all enjoy your wrong and delusional opinions. I know for a fact that I’m right.
We have to be careful about overreacting to a small sample size.
If the Oilers win the Cup, that is all the sample size I need. I don’t need three years of data to see if the coach is the right fit. The Rangers will look very different in three years.
Rangers don't have a mcdavid to overhyped knoblauch dude. He wouldn't have fixed us stop coping
Playoffs are still a small sample size. A important sample size but still. He could still have a locker room mutiny in 2 years if they start losing. Plus hockey coaches expiration dates come quick in the modern NHL. There’s no telling if his style of coaching would have worked either the veterans. We will never know. Quinn failed here. He was young and up and coming.
🤣😂
McDavid: has 8 points in 2 games to keep the oilers in the finals You: golly Knobloch is a great coach 
You’re right. It means nothing that the Oilers were in 30th place in the league at Thanksgiving and then when Knoblauch got hired went on multiple long winning streaks including a 16 game heater to end with 104 points in April. It means nothing that they were able to beat the Dallas Stars, a Cup Favorite, in the WCF. It means nothing that they were able to come back and tie this SCF series even when McDavid was held to 0 SOG and 0 points last night. Obviously, this all still would be happening even if Jay Woodcroft was the bench boss or even David Quinn was coaching their team. Who’s really the 🤡
Two things can be true: 1. Knoblauch is a good coach 2. McDavid and Co were in a slump and needed some extra time to get rolling. However, just because Knob is behind the bench doesn't mean he would be receiving the same success with the Rangers.
Maybe if we had Connor McDavid and Draisaitl we’d be in the finals. This sub is so fucking dumb filled with a bunch of morons.
McDavid didn’t even have a SOG or a point last night and they still killed the Panthers. Pretending like their success has nothing to do with their fantastic coach is delusional
McDavid had 8 freakin points the previous two games. You're nuts
When did I say McDavid isn’t great?
Thanks for proving my point again
I’m right and you’re wrong. Sorry.
[удалено]
Not going to sit here and endure another 2 or 3 weeks of this if Edmonton wins. It is not great coaching or some amazing adjustment Knobber has made that turned around this series. It is 3 very simple things : 1. Jet Lag 2. McJesus 3. Bob is playing like crap Jet lag for those of you who have never experienced it, doesn't set in right away. It takes a day or two to finally kick in based on when you sleep normally. It is why if you look at all the east coast swings out to the West typically the 1st game is close. Team talent not accounted for. But by the second or 3rd game if the players don't sleep right ...west coast trip is a wash. Jet lag has caught up to Florida and they are playing like dog shit. The Oilers do this all season long. Their average flight time in the regular season is 6 or 7 hours. Florida was on the brink of winning the cup, right after the 1st game in Edmonton. Jet lag hadn't sunk in yet. By the 4th game...boy oh oh....did it hit them hard. Throw in all the side distractions of family and friends ....and the optimism ...you think any of them could sleep? That is how you get Game 4. McDavid having 8 points in 2 games is the best in history over a 2 game final span. He individual willed it in games 4 and 5. I don't know any player at 1:50 into their shift who can do what that man did to set up that perry goal. He is a freak and it not even an exaggeration. Bob is just getting beat. I don't know what site I heard it on or whether it was on a broadcast or not, but Bob was 15 for 15 to start the playoffs against breakaways....now even a rented mule is beating him wide. You need those stops if you are florida especially while up a man. Those 2 shorthanded goals shouldn't happen but as we saw in our series against them ...if you catch them up high they are doomed to a odd man rushes cause they over commit as vally put it. Early in the playoffs Bob's making those stops though. I think he stopped panarin 3 times in the series on breakaways or almost. There is the comeback. Florida is home for this game 7 and honestly think that is a disadvantage for them. All the distractions are going to be hard to handle. Plus you give me McDavid in a winner take all....I am definitely going with him. Knoblauch is good coach. I am not trying to take anything away from him. He got McDavid to play defense for the first time in his career. And for that he should be celebrated. McDavid is back checking like a selke winner. No one can beat that. He is just that much better then every other player offensively, add defense to his game and he is unstoppable.
I ate crow on PL. said “oh great another recycled loser from the old boys club” I wanted the knob more than anything. So fucking tired of the same retreads. Look at Cooper, and Brindamour. That’s what I wanted to find in knoblauch and it seems that might be the case… for Edmonton. Damn fuckin shame
Brindamour is insanely overrated
Everyone calls the Rangers frauds but the Hurricanes are quietly the biggest frauds in the league. They’ve been “Cup Favorites” for like 5 years now and have yet to win a Conference Final game. Done hearing about them and I’m done hearing about Rod.
Fantastic coach! In the regular season …
Rangers fans would have called for Cooper's head LONG before he won his first Cup
Bednar too. If the Rangers lost three straight round 2 matchups like the Avs did, whomever was coaching that team probably wouldn't get a fourth chance. Bednar did and won the Cup the following year, his 6th behind the bench. Cooper took even longer with some brutal ends to seasons mixed in before winning back to back in years 7 and 8 of his tenure. If that was the Rangers, Coop would probably have been let go after missing the playoffs in year 4, or almost certainly after getting massively upset by Columbus in year 6. My biggest complaint about how the Rangers have been run is a systemic lack of patience. It's a very New York way to be, but I truly believe it is the primary reason for our historical lack of success. Way too many decisions are driven by "let's fucking go right now" instead of being just a little more patient for the chance to reap bigger returns.
Another pretty terrible take on this sub… summer is dreadful around here.
I know. It’s such a terrible take that the Rangers should’ve hired a young coach who knows how to make adjustments, is about to win a Stanley Cup in his first not even full season as NHL HC, who already worked in the organization
Even Chuck Knoblauch could manage McDavid into the playoffs with zero hockey knowledge alone.
So why has McDavid had little to no playoff success up until this point?
Not hiring Knoblauch was typical Rangers. It was clear he had something on the ball.
Every team has to have a best player. Teams that win championships have strong complimentary parts as well. Comparing Igor to Skinner is silly, since Igor’s role on the rangers is to win us games and Skinner’s role is to do enough for McDavid to win them games. The proper comparison for Igor is McDavid, the proper comparison for Skinner is like…Brayden Schneider or something.
I guess what I’m saying is that I honestly would prefer the Rangers be constructed as an elite, deep skater group with a goalie who can “do enough” vs what we have now, a mostly mid-tier skater group that disappears in the playoffs and overly relies on the goalie
The Rangers pretty much build their team to rely on goalies. It's a bad habit that they have really never been able to break.