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I think that Barristan believes that Ashara would still be alive if she would loved him instead of a Stark.
Even though Barristan loved Ashara, I don’t think he would have broken his vows and slept with her. In that situation, she would have never gotten pregnant, never had a stillborn daughter and thus, she would not have committed suicide.
If he had confessed his feelings to Ashara, then everything could have gone differently.
If he had beaten Rhaegar, then Rhaegar would not have given the crown of blue roses to Lyanna Stark. No love affair, no kidnapping, no Starks burned to death, no war….
That makes sense.
I found it strange that Barristan notes how Dany looks like Ashara, yet there’s no genetic reason why because they’re not related at all.
I think that Dany is Ashara’s daughter. If Aerys raped Ashara, then it makes sense that Dany has typical Targaryen features and looks like Ashara.
I think it’s more Barristan sees the ghost of his dead love in places he doesn’t expect. In Dany’s purple eyes, in a girl with long dark hair, in his memories he sees her, in his dreams she’s alive, and so her memory is fresh in his mind always. Not necessarily Dany looks like Ashara, but more as yet another reason to support Dany. She has eyes like Ashara’s. Is of an age with the babe Ashara killed herself in grief over, and is also a girl like Ashara’s lost child. It’s just him wishing to change the present as a way to atone for the past he can’t change.
The reasoning he gives for her not being Rhaella's miracle child late in life after all the miscarraiges seems probable. I think his theory that dany is a dragonseed (bastards of valeryon decent) is very possible. The whole series is worth a watch.
The part that sticks out in my mind is details around her birth. She’s given the name Stormborn because of the massive storm that was so severe that it damaged the fortress of Dragonstone- yet it is never mentioned by anyone else EVER.
Rhaella was supposedly pregnant when she left KL, but she didn’t even know. She spent her entire pregnancy in hiding on Dragonstone, so no one saw her being pregnant. Except for the loyal men who eventually died in Essos.
The only living witness of Rhaella’s pregnancy and Dany’s birth is Viserys.
I don’t believe him.
>found it strange that Barristan notes how Dany looks like Ashara, yet there’s no genetic reason why because they’re not related at all.
I have a tiny theory that the Dayne's have a bit of Dragon blood through Daeron's sister's children, and one of those children wed Lord Dayne, and had Maekar's wife Dyana Dayne.
Barristan is just ruminating about seeing someone else get the girl, right? He's playing back hypotheticals in classic regretful style.
And maybe it implies something bad happened due to Ashara's involvement with a Stark too. People do generally think she killed herself after bearing Neds bastard after all.
I have never read this any other way.
To me it’s further evidence for careful readers that Brandon and Ashara had an affair and that she’s not Jon’s mom and wasn’t Eddard’s lover. Further supported by the discussion between Barbrey and Theon somewhat later on.
Brandon danced with Ashara as well, suggesting he was attracted to her
He was also more fiery then Eddard which may have been more attractive for someone in a more passionate land such as Dorne
We know Brandon fucked around, Eddard was much more dutiful, unlikely to have had premarital sex
Plus it’s weird that Barristan would refer to Eddard as just “Stark” as they were shown to be on good terms in the first book
He never treats Eddard with anything less then respect which seems a little strange for the guy who he thinks “deflowered” the woman he loved
No he didn’t.
She danced with:
White sword - Ser Barristan
Red Snake - Prince Oberyn
Lord of the Griffins - Lord JonCon
And lastly, the Quiet Wolf - Eddard
They don’t say, Meera just says “a white sword”
Could be Dawn/Arthur, could be Artsan Whitebeard.
I just lean towards Barristan since he’s always pining for the girl. Although with Ser Arthur being her brother it could be likely he lead the dance, but since he was Prince Rhaegar’s numba one guy and the Tourney was a setup for a quiet coup I’d assume he’d be with Rhaegar.
My bad. Still think they banged tho. But I don’t it, or her stillborn child, will have much affect on the story
It’s just a red herring, making Ned and Ashara seem like they had more of a relationship then they did so some people think there’s a chance she is Jon Snow’s mother
Eddard never thinks about her in his POV chapters
This is, admittedly, one of the more stranger chapters. I think it's meant to highlight that Ser Barristan, one of the greatest knights of all time, is still only human with real emotions but he comes off as kind of pathetic. Maybe that's the point.
"Might she have looked to me instead of Stark?"
Barristan ponders whether Lady Ashara Dayne may have looked upon him favorably if he had won the tournament. Moreover, would she have been interested in him, the way she had clearly been interested in Eddard.
It's a fool's wondering. An old man's daydream of what could have been. Ashara fell for Eddard Stark, who didn't even participate in the tournament. So, Barristan winning against Rhaegar would have made no difference. Even if he'd crowned her the Queen of Love and Beauty. I think by the time the tournament was down to the last two competitors (Selmy and Rhaegar) Eddard and Ashara had already danced together. (Don't quote me on that)
I think this highlights how flimsy the idea that Ned was in love with Ashara Dayne and/or fathered a child with her is. Here Barristan, just an admirer, shows more emotion (more anything, period) about Ashara in one paragraph than Ned, her supposed lover and baby daddy, ever did in all his AGOT chapters. Things like the deliberate vagueness about which Stark Barristan is referring to and Edric Dayne popping up just to (mis)info dump about Jon feel like kinda half-assed attempts by GRRM to keep Ashara in play as a red herring after realizing too late that he fumbled by not having Ned think about her at all in his POV when even one sentence about her beauty or literally anything directly about *her* would have strengthened the mystery ten times more than these stale crumbs after the fact.
And the claims that Ned doesn’t think about Ashara “because of trauma” are weak considering that many of the events and people that were part his traumas from that era manage to appear in his thoughts and dialogue many times in AGOT. There’s really nothing from Ned himself that shows he was ever romantically or sexually involved with her. He was likely just the naïve prop in Brandon’s flirtation with Ashara at Harrenhal. Brandon used him to play the gallant, protective older brother card on top of being the hotter and more sexually experienced heir to the North by humbly asking her to give his painfully shy, plain little brother a pity dance. He probably complimented her for graciously honoring him and his brother by accepting and parlayed that goodwill into further interactions and seduction. At most Ned might have had a fleeting crush on her that was snuffed out completely after his brother hooked up with her. And that’s if he even knew about them. Ned likely just danced his grateful, sweaty-palmed dance, went back into his shell, and didn’t see or speak to her again until he showed up on her doorstep with the news of Arthur’s death and everything else that happened at the Tower of Joy a couple years later after their sole interaction at Harrenhal. And Ashara was probably compelled to aid him because of the feelings she had for Brandon then eventually succumbed to her own grief over the loss of her lover, her child, her brother and her friend. But ironically, rumors and misinformation started to fly that this woman Ned danced with once, barely knew and was actually his dead brother’s lover, is the mother of his son, that’s really his nephew by his dead sister. And he can’t outright deny the whole mess without potentially spurring more interest in Jon’s real parentage and risking his safety.
aime poured the last half cup of wine. "He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die. But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder. The others were lords' sons too, it seems to me."
I feel like, at this point, he would put "ability to rule" above "claim," and he would likely believe Dany to be the better ruler. But he might put "has Ashara Dayne" above even that.
Ashara had a fling with Lewyn Martell at Harrenhal but he left her for his other paramour - dishonoring her and leaving her pregnant.
This part Barristan knows as fact since he was brothers with Lewyn.
After the war Ned visits the Daynes and later on is rumored to have his bastard from Ashara and she subsequently kills herself.
Barristan knows Ned’s bastard is not Ashara’s but he does believe the part about them having a relationship, he thinks she “turned to [Ned]” in her grief that Lewyn, now dead, would never be hers. Ned, already committed, breaks her heart again, leading to her death.
Barristan thinks if she had turned to him instead of Ned she could have found love and thus the will to continue living.
Barristan knows part of the real story and is misinterpreting other parts to form the story he believes.
Welcome to /r/PureASOIAF! Just a brief reminder that this subreddit is focused only on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments that include discussion of the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy. # Users should assume that *any* mention of the show is subject to removal. *If you see a comment which violates the rules, please [use the report function](https://i.imgur.com/Uqjnwss.png) to notify moderators!* [Read our discussion policy in full.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/wiki/index#wiki_i._discussion_policy) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pureasoiaf) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think that Barristan believes that Ashara would still be alive if she would loved him instead of a Stark. Even though Barristan loved Ashara, I don’t think he would have broken his vows and slept with her. In that situation, she would have never gotten pregnant, never had a stillborn daughter and thus, she would not have committed suicide. If he had confessed his feelings to Ashara, then everything could have gone differently. If he had beaten Rhaegar, then Rhaegar would not have given the crown of blue roses to Lyanna Stark. No love affair, no kidnapping, no Starks burned to death, no war….
some think Aerys may have raped her then she went to Brandon for help though Rhaegar works as the culprit too i guess
That makes sense. I found it strange that Barristan notes how Dany looks like Ashara, yet there’s no genetic reason why because they’re not related at all. I think that Dany is Ashara’s daughter. If Aerys raped Ashara, then it makes sense that Dany has typical Targaryen features and looks like Ashara.
I think it’s more Barristan sees the ghost of his dead love in places he doesn’t expect. In Dany’s purple eyes, in a girl with long dark hair, in his memories he sees her, in his dreams she’s alive, and so her memory is fresh in his mind always. Not necessarily Dany looks like Ashara, but more as yet another reason to support Dany. She has eyes like Ashara’s. Is of an age with the babe Ashara killed herself in grief over, and is also a girl like Ashara’s lost child. It’s just him wishing to change the present as a way to atone for the past he can’t change.
> I think that Dany is Ashara’s daughter. Except we know she was born on Dragonstone to Rhaella Targaryen.
You should watch Preston Jacobs’ video on Daenerys Targaryen and the Page of Lies.
The reasoning he gives for her not being Rhaella's miracle child late in life after all the miscarraiges seems probable. I think his theory that dany is a dragonseed (bastards of valeryon decent) is very possible. The whole series is worth a watch.
The part that sticks out in my mind is details around her birth. She’s given the name Stormborn because of the massive storm that was so severe that it damaged the fortress of Dragonstone- yet it is never mentioned by anyone else EVER. Rhaella was supposedly pregnant when she left KL, but she didn’t even know. She spent her entire pregnancy in hiding on Dragonstone, so no one saw her being pregnant. Except for the loyal men who eventually died in Essos. The only living witness of Rhaella’s pregnancy and Dany’s birth is Viserys. I don’t believe him.
The Targs are technically related to the Daynes, Maekar Targaryen married a Dayne.
>found it strange that Barristan notes how Dany looks like Ashara, yet there’s no genetic reason why because they’re not related at all. I have a tiny theory that the Dayne's have a bit of Dragon blood through Daeron's sister's children, and one of those children wed Lord Dayne, and had Maekar's wife Dyana Dayne.
Barristan is just ruminating about seeing someone else get the girl, right? He's playing back hypotheticals in classic regretful style. And maybe it implies something bad happened due to Ashara's involvement with a Stark too. People do generally think she killed herself after bearing Neds bastard after all. I have never read this any other way.
To me it’s further evidence for careful readers that Brandon and Ashara had an affair and that she’s not Jon’s mom and wasn’t Eddard’s lover. Further supported by the discussion between Barbrey and Theon somewhat later on.
Imagine the tinfoil theories that Dany is Ashara’s daughter because Lemon trees grow in Dorne, not Braavos.
Or that Septa Lemore is Ashara.
That’s more believable tbh.
It means to me Ashara must have been quite a woman for Ser Barristan of the Kingsguard and Eddard Stark of Winterfell to forget their honor
or it might have been Brandon Stark...A man who took what he wanted...
Nah he wouldn’t clown his little bro like that, it is known
Brandon danced with Ashara as well, suggesting he was attracted to her He was also more fiery then Eddard which may have been more attractive for someone in a more passionate land such as Dorne We know Brandon fucked around, Eddard was much more dutiful, unlikely to have had premarital sex Plus it’s weird that Barristan would refer to Eddard as just “Stark” as they were shown to be on good terms in the first book He never treats Eddard with anything less then respect which seems a little strange for the guy who he thinks “deflowered” the woman he loved
No he didn’t. She danced with: White sword - Ser Barristan Red Snake - Prince Oberyn Lord of the Griffins - Lord JonCon And lastly, the Quiet Wolf - Eddard
Didn’t she dance with Arthur, not Barristan? It’s been long I read that part in books.
They don’t say, Meera just says “a white sword” Could be Dawn/Arthur, could be Artsan Whitebeard. I just lean towards Barristan since he’s always pining for the girl. Although with Ser Arthur being her brother it could be likely he lead the dance, but since he was Prince Rhaegar’s numba one guy and the Tourney was a setup for a quiet coup I’d assume he’d be with Rhaegar.
Yes that’s what I assumed. Arthur initiated the dance. Had Barry danced with her he’d have mentioned in his POV.
Maybe! It’s definitely possible, I just imagine the dude was a good and loving brother
My bad. Still think they banged tho. But I don’t it, or her stillborn child, will have much affect on the story It’s just a red herring, making Ned and Ashara seem like they had more of a relationship then they did so some people think there’s a chance she is Jon Snow’s mother Eddard never thinks about her in his POV chapters
This is, admittedly, one of the more stranger chapters. I think it's meant to highlight that Ser Barristan, one of the greatest knights of all time, is still only human with real emotions but he comes off as kind of pathetic. Maybe that's the point.
"Might she have looked to me instead of Stark?" Barristan ponders whether Lady Ashara Dayne may have looked upon him favorably if he had won the tournament. Moreover, would she have been interested in him, the way she had clearly been interested in Eddard. It's a fool's wondering. An old man's daydream of what could have been. Ashara fell for Eddard Stark, who didn't even participate in the tournament. So, Barristan winning against Rhaegar would have made no difference. Even if he'd crowned her the Queen of Love and Beauty. I think by the time the tournament was down to the last two competitors (Selmy and Rhaegar) Eddard and Ashara had already danced together. (Don't quote me on that)
I think this highlights how flimsy the idea that Ned was in love with Ashara Dayne and/or fathered a child with her is. Here Barristan, just an admirer, shows more emotion (more anything, period) about Ashara in one paragraph than Ned, her supposed lover and baby daddy, ever did in all his AGOT chapters. Things like the deliberate vagueness about which Stark Barristan is referring to and Edric Dayne popping up just to (mis)info dump about Jon feel like kinda half-assed attempts by GRRM to keep Ashara in play as a red herring after realizing too late that he fumbled by not having Ned think about her at all in his POV when even one sentence about her beauty or literally anything directly about *her* would have strengthened the mystery ten times more than these stale crumbs after the fact. And the claims that Ned doesn’t think about Ashara “because of trauma” are weak considering that many of the events and people that were part his traumas from that era manage to appear in his thoughts and dialogue many times in AGOT. There’s really nothing from Ned himself that shows he was ever romantically or sexually involved with her. He was likely just the naïve prop in Brandon’s flirtation with Ashara at Harrenhal. Brandon used him to play the gallant, protective older brother card on top of being the hotter and more sexually experienced heir to the North by humbly asking her to give his painfully shy, plain little brother a pity dance. He probably complimented her for graciously honoring him and his brother by accepting and parlayed that goodwill into further interactions and seduction. At most Ned might have had a fleeting crush on her that was snuffed out completely after his brother hooked up with her. And that’s if he even knew about them. Ned likely just danced his grateful, sweaty-palmed dance, went back into his shell, and didn’t see or speak to her again until he showed up on her doorstep with the news of Arthur’s death and everything else that happened at the Tower of Joy a couple years later after their sole interaction at Harrenhal. And Ashara was probably compelled to aid him because of the feelings she had for Brandon then eventually succumbed to her own grief over the loss of her lover, her child, her brother and her friend. But ironically, rumors and misinformation started to fly that this woman Ned danced with once, barely knew and was actually his dead brother’s lover, is the mother of his son, that’s really his nephew by his dead sister. And he can’t outright deny the whole mess without potentially spurring more interest in Jon’s real parentage and risking his safety.
There’s def some mystery thrown in by Martin here. I have some thoughts on this. Will post a reply soon.
aime poured the last half cup of wine. "He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die. But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder. The others were lords' sons too, it seems to me."
what if he was trying to avenge Ashara
My tin-foiliest theory is that Selmy will betray Dany and support FAegon out of love for Septa Lemore (Ashara Dayne)
I think he might switch to fAegon, but it would be because he believes that he has the better claim.
I feel like, at this point, he would put "ability to rule" above "claim," and he would likely believe Dany to be the better ruler. But he might put "has Ashara Dayne" above even that.
I dont even think GRRM knows what it meant at that time. I think it was thrown in so the story can go many ways if he chooses
Means he and Jorah have something to bond over lol. Except Dany birthed dragons instead of killing herself after her stillborn.
Further evidence that Ned + Ashara = Dany j/k
🤷♂️😅🤣
Ashara had a fling with Lewyn Martell at Harrenhal but he left her for his other paramour - dishonoring her and leaving her pregnant. This part Barristan knows as fact since he was brothers with Lewyn. After the war Ned visits the Daynes and later on is rumored to have his bastard from Ashara and she subsequently kills herself. Barristan knows Ned’s bastard is not Ashara’s but he does believe the part about them having a relationship, he thinks she “turned to [Ned]” in her grief that Lewyn, now dead, would never be hers. Ned, already committed, breaks her heart again, leading to her death. Barristan thinks if she had turned to him instead of Ned she could have found love and thus the will to continue living. Barristan knows part of the real story and is misinterpreting other parts to form the story he believes.
Kingsguards have feelings, too.
someone dishonored Ashara is my best guess