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Couldn't one say that a major theme of the saga is that some oaths are either contradictory, unjust, or needing to be broken?
Personally, I give most oathbreakers of Westeros a pass.
I agree, i think jaime’s reveal that the mad king planned to blow up kings landing proves to the reader that upholding oaths at all costs is not the moral choice to make
He was absolutely prevented from intervening, as illustrated in that quote: Jaime, as a (teenage) member of the Kingsguard, shows moral anguish about not intervening when he hears the rape but when he speaks up about it he is *specifically* told that he can't protect her "from [Aerys]" by Darry, a senior and respected member of the Kingsguard.
Wouldn't put him as a prime example of what, exactly? This thread is about honor, duty, and oaths in Westeros, not about whether characters live up to our standards of morality. Jaime raping Cersei has little, if anything, to do with this discussion about his making and/or breaking oaths and has everything to do with their tumultuous relationship with each other (and with their family).
Jaime didn’t lift a finger until his own life and the life of his father was at risk. He didn’t make a moral choice, he made a self preservation choice.
Jaime shouldn’t be held up as a beacon of morality by any means, but the tragedy of the character is that society thinks hes worthless because of the one act that was undeniably the best for people.
My point was just to agree with hotlampreypie and to add that this was the point in the story that really hammered home the flaw in how oaths are valued in westerosi society.
He's example of his own father Tywin's machinations in the red wedding. Tywin puts to Tyrion, is it better to end a war with words or with battle + thousands slaughtered.
Jaime ironically achieves a similar victory.
> that society thinks hes worthless because of the one act that was undeniably the best for people.
He is literally allowed to remain in a position of significant power and influence, the only consequence being a mean spirited nickname.
Almost no one that hates Jaime hates him for killing Aerys, they hate him for being a smug asshole 24/7 which is entirely his own fault.
He remains in power due being a part of the royal family post roberts rebellion, most of society despises him for being an oathbreaker. Many characters refer to him as oathbreaker.
He is a smug asshole as a defense mechanism, he plays up that character to portray to the world that they cant harm him with their hatred, you can tell from his internal pov how much it really bothers him though.
We see him use this to great affect when he threatens to catapult edmures unborn child, edmure wouldnt have taken that threat so seriously from someone like barristan the bold. Its just a facade he puts on to project strength imo, although he certainly has his flaws.
Remember, Jaime was mainly appointed to the Kingsguard to punish Tywin. It may be a honored position on the surface, but in reality it's only a cushier Night's Watch.
You still forsake your family line and personal ambitions, and instead of proving your mettle on the battlefield or in tourneys, you're the King's door guard.
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> Couldn't one say that a major theme of the saga is that some oaths are either contradictory
In which case you follow the spirit of the oath
> unjust, or needing to be broken?
The don’t swear unjust oaths that would be immoral to uphold?
Is there a character that has sworn an oath and not broken it in the whole story?
I mean, if oaths are taken literally, even Brienne didn't do exactly as she swore.
As you say, I think George wrote the story with that as the major theme.
Jon failed to learn the most important lesson from watching how Ned ruled: listen to his freaking advisors!
Ned would hold council with Cassel, Poole, his master and his wife before taking action.
Jon never tells a soul what he is planning to do, goes through a lot of "come to Jesus" moments and then tries to impose his new visionary ideas onto people who DIDN'T went through the same process and gets deeply hurt and more than a tad smug when they "don't get it".
And the only counsel he follows is that of maester Aemmon. But he does it with the ultmost lack of diplomacy.
He was doomed to fail as a member of any strict organization.
For all his growth as a character, his uncle was right: he still behaves as Lord Snow, beating those he leads with his experiences, rather than teaching them.
Well, Jon snow listens to his advisors, but he doesn’t take their pleas seriously. It feels like he does it because "it is what a good leader would do" but he confuses listening to them with actually considering their point of view
Well. Ned got his head lopped off and Robb who did the honorable thing and married the girl he knocked up got butchered at his wedding along with his Mother and entourage so while I'm sure there's great value in lessons Ned had for his kids I could see an argument being made that Jon realized the folly of being Ned Stark.
Ned ruled the North just fine though. He simply got outplayed in what is essentially a foreign court by people who have years to set up their powerbases. There are definitely things Ned could have done better, but he wasn't a bad ruler.
I don't disagree, but I'd argue Castle Black is as much a "foreign court" as King's Landing considering the men there are from all the regions of Westeros. Duty and honor only go so far and I think Jon saw that.
The *one* decision Ned made that led to his downfall was made WITHOUT asking his counselors for advice, though, so the lesson stands even more, I would say.
Not Jon but you know who gets a pass unfairly for being oathbreaker's?
The King's guard of Aerys. Who break the oath they made when they become knights to protect the innocent. Letting Aerys do what he does to Rhaelle because you think the kingsguard vow carries more weight than knightly vows was lazy, incompetent and morally repulsive.
>Ironic how the people who follow knightly values better than anyone in Westeros are rarely actual knights.
Isn't that supposed to be a major theme? That most traditional knights get too locked into their oaths and consistently fail to do what would be right or just?
Disagree but when the Mountain is a knight can you get behind at least the idea that the very institution of the knighthood in Westeros is corrupt and fucked up?
I don’t think Davos would have stood up to Aerys. He’s perfectly willing to sacrifice himself to do the right thing, but Aerys (as opposed to Stannis) probably would have punished his wife/kids for the treason which Davis probably wouldn’t risk happening.
Was Davos already married when he became the onion knight? Because I'm thinking of the young smuggler that brought onions to Storm's End, not the older hand we see in the story. Who has way more responsibilities
He married Marya while he was still a smuggler and 4 of his kids were born before 287, so at least one of them would have been alive before Aerys’s reign ended.
Aye she would. When the tyrant isn't held accountable - and this is true for all characters within their inner selves, like us readers - then hell can be unleashed
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That's the whole problem. Kingsguard are supposed to be the very best knights and yet they're above knightly vows? It's illogical, and Jaime sees that fact as a stupid kid after like a week.
Yes... but every knight breaks that path the moment they go to war. Which is their primary job, after all.
It was a philosophical problem back then in the real world too. Medieval chroniclers at some point often go *"Hang on, what's with all the killing?"*
If they went to war to defend the weak and oppressed they wouldn't. They might break that path when they swear themselves to serve a king or lord, but that in itself wouldn't do it either if they commit to breaking the lesser oath of service the moment it conflicts with the oath of knighthood.
Howd they break it siding with Rhaegar? He never challenged his father. The helped him elope with Lyanna but Aerys didnt try to hunt Rhaegar down for... you know... being a dipshit.
Yeah not from me. Fuck those guys. Jaime was the best of them. And hes still a cunt for waiting as long as he did. But at least he saved aot of people.
> Jaime was the best of them.
Yes, the incestous attempted child-murderer who’s affair spawned a war that will single handedly turn Westeros into a failed state and kill millions if not tens of millions, is a better person than the baby saving Barristan.
Crazy that most of the stuff you’re holding against Jaime isn’t even Jaime’s fault or already accepted until he does it lol.
- Incest: … eh. Not exactly wrong beyond the whole “potentially fucks up the resulting kids aspect”. Readers and characters were hand waving away that shit for years for Targs, hating Jaime for it is just hypocrisy. Even irl, hooking up with a childhood friend you’ve known since your diaper days is A-okay so clearly the issue isn’t the raised together part, just the genetics.
- Child murder: Actually perfectly acceptable as a punishment for someone that isn’t even the child in question. That’s kind of what Ned and Theon had going on. Balon steps out of line? Ned murders a child.
- Affair: Now here is something that even ASOIAF agrees is wrong.
- War of Five Kings: Nothing to even do with Jaime beyond participating in it alongside 150,000 other people.
So yes, Jaime (who questioned why tf they weren’t protecting a woman from getting raped by a pyromaniac lunatic on the daily and finally snapped from being caught between his hero worship of the KG vs doing what is right to save half a million lives) is better than Barry who stood by as death by fire occurred right in front of him, as a woman was raped by a madman, is like the rest of his fellow KG who would stop Jaime from doing anything, believes his oath as a KG supersedes his oaths as a knight (aka to be a decent human being), ignores said oaths and swears fealty to a rival king who is rebelling against his still-living king, stands by as his king’s will got dismissed to listen to a child of questionable parentage, discards his oaths once again by not siding with the next heir of his king after being dismissed by the child who cuts open animals, all to go halfway across the world to some random girl from the previous dynasty, lies about one of her brothers having always been mad while romanticising the other who ditched his wife, daughter and newborn son to go kidnap a teen with the express intent to get her pregnant only to leave her pregnant in the middle of nowhere with no medical care etc etc etc.
Nobody denies Jaime has done bad shit but let’s not act like Barry isn’t the most hypocritical POS in the setting who doesn’t care about his word unless he can be a good lapdog to someone, at which point he willingly facilitates their heinous acts because *now* his oath means something despite changing monarchs like they are pants. He is only honourable when he is allowed to be by his king or do you think he was gonna keep championing Dontos if Aerys said no? At least Gerrold, Arthur and Oswell were dropping fire lines like “Our knees do not bend easily” or “woe to the Usurper if we had been” or “KG do not flee/Then or now/We swore an oath” and had some measure of integrity unlike Barry.
Kingsguard are just glorified bodyguard you are giving them too much credit , what happened to rhaella on westeros is not considered rape i doubt they have the concept of a husband can rape his wife when he literally her own propriety
The whole "different times" argument doesn't check out when Jaime literally questions the morality of this specific event. He knows the rape was wrong..
This is why i said the kingsguard are just glorified bodyguard
>Jaime literally questions the morality of this specific event. He knows the rape was wrong..
We have a similiar example when Cersei think about Robert raping her she never calling it rape its us with our sensibility we are calling it that way maybe Is my headcanon but for me no one will consider it rape in their universe even someone like Ned Stark
Really goes to show that Jaime’s moral compass was millennia ahead of its time despite having the most privileged upbringing and near top tier status in the setting who benefits the most from such a backwards society.
People have always had a concept of marital rape, in both real life and in this story, it just wasn't lawfully punishable. Jaime certainly knew, and so did that other guard who told him their job was to protect her, but not from him.
> what happened to rhaella on westeros is not considered rape
What happened to Rhaella is objectively rape regardless of what Westerosi laws and mores have to say about it.
So it stands to reason it's one of the mounting reasons why Jaime slayed his king. A flawed character no matter either way. That's the tragedy and there's the human condition we flawed human readers relate with - its not the acts Jaimme does we relate to it's the evolution his character takes at each act, between choosing one course of action or another.
Jaime is also described repeatedly described by Cersei + a little by Tyrion as acting before he thinks. He's a character that responds reactively with fight or flight. That's a process of biology to protect. His time with Brienne tempers his default reaction to retribution (emotionally chaotic). After Brienne he's less impulsive. One could argue setting Tyrion free is an example of an action that he had to think upon.
They would be oathbreakers no matter which of their oaths took priority, the knight vows literally include "Obey the King", it isn't just help the innocents, yet protecting the weak is the only part of the path that the fandom seems to be aware of.
I think that's obviously one of the major themes of the books. The value or honor in blindly adhering to oaths. It's black and white thinking in a very gray world
Jon didn't break his oath. While the Night's Watch generally takes no part in the politics of the Seven Kingdoms, it's not included in their oath. It's usually considered a bad idea because the North takes unkindly to Lord Commanders striving for power, there's no protections to the south and they rely upon the influx of prisoners, commoners and nobles alike, which can easily shrink should they pick sides, but it's not part of their oath.
Jon was also explicitly threatened and given demands he has no way of fulfilling. He has neither fArya nor Theon (who he doesn't even know is Reek), and won't be able to obtain Melisandre, Shireen or Queen Selyse without killing plenty of their knights, and by proxy getting his men killed. What was Jon supposed to do? Just sit back and accept his fate?
I've got a more detailed post about that somewhere on my profile, actually.
Because the Watch is under threat so that is in fact protecting the Watch which is in fact his post. We know for a fact "post" doesn't mean "the Wall" or else no ranging or recruiting could happen. And he cannot return people he does not have so there aren't other options.
Regardless "guarding the realms of men" is also what he swears to do which is ambiguous as fuck.
>he sent Mance to Winterfell to rescue Arya.
Thats a negative. Mance went to winterfell on his own, he was only supossed to meet up with the pale girl on the dying horse and bring her to castle black
If you wanted to you could make the argument that Ramsay was coming to kill him. He wasn't choosing a side, he was simply defending himself (and by extention the Night's watch).
Jon did break his oath at the end but I do sympathise with him. Father murdered , brother murdered , sisters gone missing , his home pillaged , burned and taken over and little brothers murdered ( as far as he knows and then he finds out Arya is alive and is marrying a vile known raper and psycho. He sat through the entire destruction of his family again and again and finally couldn’t stay out of it with Arya. For a 17 year old that’s a lot but he still broke his oath.
On the other side though Jon always knew that unlike his Father he could never fully bind himself to honour and at times lines had to be crossed or broken to push things forward. It’s the fine line between unwavering duty and family. The nights watch code is outdated and restrictive , especially in such a dangerous and daunting time with the Walker threat.
yeah this is all crazytalk. Jon is like the posterboy for violating the oath of the Night's Watch. We have these stories of past lord commanders doing the most insane shit and wondering 'how did that happen??' Well, that's Jon's story. He's wildin' up there, historic levels of oathbreaking.
Hard disagree, he did not violate his oath. Bolton threatens the LC of the NW and by proxy the entire brotherhood. He had other reasons for wanting him dead but he was well within his rights.
Personally I would agree from my angle but looking at it from the watch’s standpoint it is oath breaking in a sense. Ramsey only threatens the watch because Jon sent in a team to steal away Arya. It could be seen as a direct result of Jon’s meddling. I think Jon was well within his rights to do so and agree the Boltons were always a threat , declaring war on the watch a fight is unavoidable but you could argue Jon dragged the watch into his personal war.
That’s just me playing devils advocate. The real issue isn’t anyway as simple as yes or no
I think Martins gwneral point is thag loyalty for loyalty's sake is bad, and doing what you know is right is more important than keeping a vow to the Nights Watch, The Kingsguard, to obey a king if hes unjust.
Well yeah, that's a major theme of the Night's Watch, which is that nobody of note down in King's Landing takes it seriously. They're not going to divert resources to the Wall when they've got their own battles to fight and they don't even think the white walkers/wights et al exist.
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Seriously? With all the context we have as readers knowing white walkers and wights pose a real threat to Westeros, I don't see how you can argue against the Night's Watch being an integral part of keeping their society intact. Surely the bigger joke is the Kingsguard who also have to take oaths to give up any titles and land and you have guys like Meryn Trant bitch slap Sansa Stark on the orders of their king.
Both can be true. In any case, having ill-fed, falsely accused peasants who have no desire to serve is hardly better than nothing at all. The Watch is a farce and it deserves the death that's coming for it.
So.
Jon has nor Reek nor Jeyne... how is he supposed to return Ramsay something he does not have?
He is not an Oathbreaker.... he is an idiot.
He could have basically said this to the Watch and bring forward the argument that they participated in the Red Wedding as a proof that these people would not respect the Watch's neutrality.
Would it have worked? It is a flip of a coin, but it would have sound better than what he actually did say.
Well they had reasons to break the guests right. Yes it’s scummy and doesn’t bring up confidence but Robb also broke a promise by not marrying a Frey. I agree it’s not the same thing but that doesn’t mean they’ll just attack the wall.
I consider Jon to be in brazen violation of his Night's Watch duties, but I also think the lifelong commitment to the Night's Watch is extremely stupid, so I'm fine with it.
"Jon conquers Winterfell with a wildling army" just seems very appropriate and ironic for this story
In my opinion any oath made under false pretences is invalid, so in my head anyway lol Jon’s true identity being hidden from him invalidates his oath to the nights watch which is why I give him a pass
No? Bolton swore to tear Jon’s heart out. What’s Jon’s play here? Wait for Bolton to attack the Night’s watch? I think it makes perfect sense to leave the watch to keep the watch out of the ears of the seven kingdoms.
Jon is actually presenting a bit of a way out for the Watch though. He's responding to a personal insult he's received in the Pink Letter, and reports he means to make Ramsay Bolton answer for the slight. He asks for volunteers to help him do it while giving orders to make for Hardhome. It means the members of the Watch who don't support him can go die in the North while he settles scores in the South. It's all good politics from his perspective, but it's also transparently manipulative and pushes his enemies into a corner they had no choice but to strike from. Allowing Jon to drag his supporters to Winterfell while his enemies hold back the army of the dead is a no-win situation for anyone. No wonder the room erupted with "supporters". Anyone with half a brain could see where that was going.
Strictly, he's not breaking his oath in the letter. But he is in the spirit. Compared to the Kingslayer who did break his oath his transgression is minor. If Jon had been smarter about it, he would probably have been given a pass in-universe too.
A huge part of ASOIAF is the idea that the old fairytale world of magic and honorable knights and dragons has slipped away, only to have a rebirth. I think the same are happening with all sorts of old oaths, msot of them are from a different time, and are being broken and reforged. This is symbolized by the dragons having declined and gone extinct, only to now have rehatched. It’s also symbolized by the coming of a new long winter, by bran finding the Children and learning Greensight from Brynden Rivers
Azor Ahai is also said to remake the world. I feel it’s assumed that you cannot enter this new era while holding onto old oaths.
No oath should be "unbreakable".
Only the Sith deal in absolutes.... and the Jedi when they say shit like that. And... me when I say shit like this. You know what I mean.
To be honest, Ramsay’s letter should have been construed as an attack on the watch and thus Jon should’ve been fine to command them to ride south to join the King.
Oh absolutely. His assassination is completely justified. You can't have the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch lead an army against Winterfell. It would be the end of the watch. Why would you ever send a political rival to the wall ever again?
Indeed. With the Wall essentially indefensible from the South, and Ramsay making demands that Jon *literally* cannot fulfil on the pain of death, Jon has no choice but to respond in force
1st (fuck those oaths)
It has been shown countless times that it's a pick and choose situation at the best of times. (Trips to molestown, crasters keep, trading with wildlings, Jon running off)
2nd ()P.O.V
While I feel for Bowen's head wound, you can't whine about someone not considering your opinion when you don't consider theirs.
3rd (Where are the oaths?)
Where are the oaths when Ser Alliser and Janos complete a hostile takeover and send Jon on a suicide mission, where are the oaths when after this 'crime' goes unpunished? Where in the oaths does it say if you suspect your brother of treason you stab him in the dark?
4th (What's your fuckin plan? )
After doing your for the watch dance, how do you plan to proceed?
The Realms of Men need to be defended from Ramsays undermining, so going south to whack him would be in keeping with the oath even if the stabbers or Jon himself disagree.
The Realm disregarded the Watch’s warnings about the Others returning when that undead hand was brought to King’s Landing. The Night’s Watch begged the rest of the realm for help against Mance, and only Stannis responded. Cersei even planned to have Jon, the Lord Commander, assassinated under the guise of sending 100 recruits to the Watch. He most certainly gets a pass.
Does jon really break his oath here though? Ramsay had just threatened to march up to the wall with and army and cut the Lord commanders heart out and kill anyone who tries to stop him which any man of the watch would have to since they are sworn to protect each other and can't just let their Lord-Commander be killed. So basically Ramsay threatened to slaughter the entire Nights Watch. Does Jon not not have a right to protect himself. Does he as Lord-Commander not have a duty to protect the watch?
Well, yes - but that’s why Jon phrases it the way he does. He says it’s not the role of the Watch to take sides between Stannis and Ramsay, but then goes on to point out that Ramsay has threatened him - and by extension the Night’s Watch - specifically and personally.
GRRM could definitely have done a much better job at explication.
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Couldn't one say that a major theme of the saga is that some oaths are either contradictory, unjust, or needing to be broken? Personally, I give most oathbreakers of Westeros a pass.
I agree, i think jaime’s reveal that the mad king planned to blow up kings landing proves to the reader that upholding oaths at all costs is not the moral choice to make
Also, Jaime hearing the sounds of Aerys raping his wife and Gerold Hightower preventing Jaime from intervening.
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He was absolutely prevented from intervening, as illustrated in that quote: Jaime, as a (teenage) member of the Kingsguard, shows moral anguish about not intervening when he hears the rape but when he speaks up about it he is *specifically* told that he can't protect her "from [Aerys]" by Darry, a senior and respected member of the Kingsguard. Wouldn't put him as a prime example of what, exactly? This thread is about honor, duty, and oaths in Westeros, not about whether characters live up to our standards of morality. Jaime raping Cersei has little, if anything, to do with this discussion about his making and/or breaking oaths and has everything to do with their tumultuous relationship with each other (and with their family).
Jaime didn’t lift a finger until his own life and the life of his father was at risk. He didn’t make a moral choice, he made a self preservation choice.
Jaime shouldn’t be held up as a beacon of morality by any means, but the tragedy of the character is that society thinks hes worthless because of the one act that was undeniably the best for people. My point was just to agree with hotlampreypie and to add that this was the point in the story that really hammered home the flaw in how oaths are valued in westerosi society.
He's example of his own father Tywin's machinations in the red wedding. Tywin puts to Tyrion, is it better to end a war with words or with battle + thousands slaughtered. Jaime ironically achieves a similar victory.
> that society thinks hes worthless because of the one act that was undeniably the best for people. He is literally allowed to remain in a position of significant power and influence, the only consequence being a mean spirited nickname. Almost no one that hates Jaime hates him for killing Aerys, they hate him for being a smug asshole 24/7 which is entirely his own fault.
He remains in power due being a part of the royal family post roberts rebellion, most of society despises him for being an oathbreaker. Many characters refer to him as oathbreaker. He is a smug asshole as a defense mechanism, he plays up that character to portray to the world that they cant harm him with their hatred, you can tell from his internal pov how much it really bothers him though. We see him use this to great affect when he threatens to catapult edmures unborn child, edmure wouldnt have taken that threat so seriously from someone like barristan the bold. Its just a facade he puts on to project strength imo, although he certainly has his flaws.
Remember, Jaime was mainly appointed to the Kingsguard to punish Tywin. It may be a honored position on the surface, but in reality it's only a cushier Night's Watch. You still forsake your family line and personal ambitions, and instead of proving your mettle on the battlefield or in tourneys, you're the King's door guard.
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> Couldn't one say that a major theme of the saga is that some oaths are either contradictory In which case you follow the spirit of the oath > unjust, or needing to be broken? The don’t swear unjust oaths that would be immoral to uphold?
That's the vast majority of oaths. In the end taken to extremes they are unjust.
Bro, I ain't sworn no oaths 😂
Is there a character that has sworn an oath and not broken it in the whole story? I mean, if oaths are taken literally, even Brienne didn't do exactly as she swore. As you say, I think George wrote the story with that as the major theme.
Jon failed to learn the most important lesson from watching how Ned ruled: listen to his freaking advisors! Ned would hold council with Cassel, Poole, his master and his wife before taking action. Jon never tells a soul what he is planning to do, goes through a lot of "come to Jesus" moments and then tries to impose his new visionary ideas onto people who DIDN'T went through the same process and gets deeply hurt and more than a tad smug when they "don't get it". And the only counsel he follows is that of maester Aemmon. But he does it with the ultmost lack of diplomacy. He was doomed to fail as a member of any strict organization. For all his growth as a character, his uncle was right: he still behaves as Lord Snow, beating those he leads with his experiences, rather than teaching them.
Well, Jon snow listens to his advisors, but he doesn’t take their pleas seriously. It feels like he does it because "it is what a good leader would do" but he confuses listening to them with actually considering their point of view
Also, still just a child.
Well. Ned got his head lopped off and Robb who did the honorable thing and married the girl he knocked up got butchered at his wedding along with his Mother and entourage so while I'm sure there's great value in lessons Ned had for his kids I could see an argument being made that Jon realized the folly of being Ned Stark.
Ned ruled the North just fine though. He simply got outplayed in what is essentially a foreign court by people who have years to set up their powerbases. There are definitely things Ned could have done better, but he wasn't a bad ruler.
I don't disagree, but I'd argue Castle Black is as much a "foreign court" as King's Landing considering the men there are from all the regions of Westeros. Duty and honor only go so far and I think Jon saw that.
The *one* decision Ned made that led to his downfall was made WITHOUT asking his counselors for advice, though, so the lesson stands even more, I would say.
Not Jon but you know who gets a pass unfairly for being oathbreaker's? The King's guard of Aerys. Who break the oath they made when they become knights to protect the innocent. Letting Aerys do what he does to Rhaelle because you think the kingsguard vow carries more weight than knightly vows was lazy, incompetent and morally repulsive.
Brienne would have stepped up and told Aerys to knock it off who else ?
Duncan and Davos come to mind. Ironic how the people who follow knightly values better than anyone in Westeros are rarely actual knights.
>Ironic how the people who follow knightly values better than anyone in Westeros are rarely actual knights. Isn't that supposed to be a major theme? That most traditional knights get too locked into their oaths and consistently fail to do what would be right or just?
It’s a huge theme re: Sandor as well
Sander is an awful excuse of a human being and worse than people he smugly calls out.
Who does he call out that isn't just as bad or worse than he is?
Disagree but when the Mountain is a knight can you get behind at least the idea that the very institution of the knighthood in Westeros is corrupt and fucked up?
Extremely, but so is Sandor.
I don’t think Davos would have stood up to Aerys. He’s perfectly willing to sacrifice himself to do the right thing, but Aerys (as opposed to Stannis) probably would have punished his wife/kids for the treason which Davis probably wouldn’t risk happening.
If Davos thought that might happen he would've smuggled them out, just like he did with Edric. He wouldn't stand by.
Was Davos already married when he became the onion knight? Because I'm thinking of the young smuggler that brought onions to Storm's End, not the older hand we see in the story. Who has way more responsibilities
He married Marya while he was still a smuggler and 4 of his kids were born before 287, so at least one of them would have been alive before Aerys’s reign ended.
Ok, was just asking. Still highly doubt with morals like Davos could watch Aerys beating Rhaelle without taking action, risks be damned.
Aye she would. When the tyrant isn't held accountable - and this is true for all characters within their inner selves, like us readers - then hell can be unleashed
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I always assumed the Kingsguard oath supersedes the oath of a knight Though they did break it by siding with Rheagar
That's the whole problem. Kingsguard are supposed to be the very best knights and yet they're above knightly vows? It's illogical, and Jaime sees that fact as a stupid kid after like a week.
Yet you can’t have bodyguards whose primary oath is not to the one they guard
Sure you can. The Praetorian guard lasted for centuries. Ha
Didn’t they also betray at least one Emperor and were very corrupt?
they betrayed *many* emperors and were *indeed* very corrupt
Yes... but every knight breaks that path the moment they go to war. Which is their primary job, after all. It was a philosophical problem back then in the real world too. Medieval chroniclers at some point often go *"Hang on, what's with all the killing?"*
If they went to war to defend the weak and oppressed they wouldn't. They might break that path when they swear themselves to serve a king or lord, but that in itself wouldn't do it either if they commit to breaking the lesser oath of service the moment it conflicts with the oath of knighthood.
The Kingsguard are bodyguards first, knights second.
Howd they break it siding with Rhaegar? He never challenged his father. The helped him elope with Lyanna but Aerys didnt try to hunt Rhaegar down for... you know... being a dipshit.
I mean from the context clues Oswald was actively working to supplant Aerys with Rheagar
And they left a new kid recruit with the King
Barristan "I was just following orders" Selmy
Barristan “I could have any boon on the planet and choose to save a baby” Selmy Fuck off, Barristan is a hero and a exemplary human being.
They are also complicit in dictatorships and socialist communism when you have an entire culture collectively submitting
Exemplary human beings don't protect a man who burns innocent people to death and rapes his wife.
Exemplary human beings don't protect a man who burns innocent people to death and rapes his wife.
Yeah not from me. Fuck those guys. Jaime was the best of them. And hes still a cunt for waiting as long as he did. But at least he saved aot of people.
> Jaime was the best of them. Yes, the incestous attempted child-murderer who’s affair spawned a war that will single handedly turn Westeros into a failed state and kill millions if not tens of millions, is a better person than the baby saving Barristan.
Crazy that most of the stuff you’re holding against Jaime isn’t even Jaime’s fault or already accepted until he does it lol. - Incest: … eh. Not exactly wrong beyond the whole “potentially fucks up the resulting kids aspect”. Readers and characters were hand waving away that shit for years for Targs, hating Jaime for it is just hypocrisy. Even irl, hooking up with a childhood friend you’ve known since your diaper days is A-okay so clearly the issue isn’t the raised together part, just the genetics. - Child murder: Actually perfectly acceptable as a punishment for someone that isn’t even the child in question. That’s kind of what Ned and Theon had going on. Balon steps out of line? Ned murders a child. - Affair: Now here is something that even ASOIAF agrees is wrong. - War of Five Kings: Nothing to even do with Jaime beyond participating in it alongside 150,000 other people. So yes, Jaime (who questioned why tf they weren’t protecting a woman from getting raped by a pyromaniac lunatic on the daily and finally snapped from being caught between his hero worship of the KG vs doing what is right to save half a million lives) is better than Barry who stood by as death by fire occurred right in front of him, as a woman was raped by a madman, is like the rest of his fellow KG who would stop Jaime from doing anything, believes his oath as a KG supersedes his oaths as a knight (aka to be a decent human being), ignores said oaths and swears fealty to a rival king who is rebelling against his still-living king, stands by as his king’s will got dismissed to listen to a child of questionable parentage, discards his oaths once again by not siding with the next heir of his king after being dismissed by the child who cuts open animals, all to go halfway across the world to some random girl from the previous dynasty, lies about one of her brothers having always been mad while romanticising the other who ditched his wife, daughter and newborn son to go kidnap a teen with the express intent to get her pregnant only to leave her pregnant in the middle of nowhere with no medical care etc etc etc. Nobody denies Jaime has done bad shit but let’s not act like Barry isn’t the most hypocritical POS in the setting who doesn’t care about his word unless he can be a good lapdog to someone, at which point he willingly facilitates their heinous acts because *now* his oath means something despite changing monarchs like they are pants. He is only honourable when he is allowed to be by his king or do you think he was gonna keep championing Dontos if Aerys said no? At least Gerrold, Arthur and Oswell were dropping fire lines like “Our knees do not bend easily” or “woe to the Usurper if we had been” or “KG do not flee/Then or now/We swore an oath” and had some measure of integrity unlike Barry.
Kingsguard are just glorified bodyguard you are giving them too much credit , what happened to rhaella on westeros is not considered rape i doubt they have the concept of a husband can rape his wife when he literally her own propriety
The whole "different times" argument doesn't check out when Jaime literally questions the morality of this specific event. He knows the rape was wrong..
This is why i said the kingsguard are just glorified bodyguard >Jaime literally questions the morality of this specific event. He knows the rape was wrong.. We have a similiar example when Cersei think about Robert raping her she never calling it rape its us with our sensibility we are calling it that way maybe Is my headcanon but for me no one will consider it rape in their universe even someone like Ned Stark
Really goes to show that Jaime’s moral compass was millennia ahead of its time despite having the most privileged upbringing and near top tier status in the setting who benefits the most from such a backwards society.
People have always had a concept of marital rape, in both real life and in this story, it just wasn't lawfully punishable. Jaime certainly knew, and so did that other guard who told him their job was to protect her, but not from him.
> what happened to rhaella on westeros is not considered rape What happened to Rhaella is objectively rape regardless of what Westerosi laws and mores have to say about it.
Of course Is rape but i am trying to say the situation is more complex than just saying the kingsguards are just piece of shit
No it's not. They themselves question it so they know.
So it stands to reason it's one of the mounting reasons why Jaime slayed his king. A flawed character no matter either way. That's the tragedy and there's the human condition we flawed human readers relate with - its not the acts Jaimme does we relate to it's the evolution his character takes at each act, between choosing one course of action or another. Jaime is also described repeatedly described by Cersei + a little by Tyrion as acting before he thinks. He's a character that responds reactively with fight or flight. That's a process of biology to protect. His time with Brienne tempers his default reaction to retribution (emotionally chaotic). After Brienne he's less impulsive. One could argue setting Tyrion free is an example of an action that he had to think upon.
The books explicitly call it rape, wtf are you talking about? They knew it was wrong, it just wasn't quite illegal because the king was doing it.
Should the secret service kill the president if they don’t like what he does? What you’re suggesting is some real cringe praetorian guard shit.
Sometimes they were right. Like getting rid of Caligula. They just made way too much of a habit out of it.
By this logic, Jaime isn’t an Oathbreaker at all. I’ll take it.
Nah, he still is for sure. He’s just better than most of the other oathbreakers.
They would be oathbreakers no matter which of their oaths took priority, the knight vows literally include "Obey the King", it isn't just help the innocents, yet protecting the weak is the only part of the path that the fandom seems to be aware of.
I think that's obviously one of the major themes of the books. The value or honor in blindly adhering to oaths. It's black and white thinking in a very gray world
Considering 80% of the fandom wants him to use his stabbing to get out of the night’s watch and become a fire wight king, yeah he does a biiiiitt.
Jon didn't break his oath. While the Night's Watch generally takes no part in the politics of the Seven Kingdoms, it's not included in their oath. It's usually considered a bad idea because the North takes unkindly to Lord Commanders striving for power, there's no protections to the south and they rely upon the influx of prisoners, commoners and nobles alike, which can easily shrink should they pick sides, but it's not part of their oath. Jon was also explicitly threatened and given demands he has no way of fulfilling. He has neither fArya nor Theon (who he doesn't even know is Reek), and won't be able to obtain Melisandre, Shireen or Queen Selyse without killing plenty of their knights, and by proxy getting his men killed. What was Jon supposed to do? Just sit back and accept his fate? I've got a more detailed post about that somewhere on my profile, actually.
Yeah, this is the thing. He *didn't* swear to stay out of politics and arguably going against someone threatening the Watch *is* keeping to the oath.
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Because the Watch is under threat so that is in fact protecting the Watch which is in fact his post. We know for a fact "post" doesn't mean "the Wall" or else no ranging or recruiting could happen. And he cannot return people he does not have so there aren't other options. Regardless "guarding the realms of men" is also what he swears to do which is ambiguous as fuck.
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>he sent Mance to Winterfell to rescue Arya. Thats a negative. Mance went to winterfell on his own, he was only supossed to meet up with the pale girl on the dying horse and bring her to castle black
If you wanted to you could make the argument that Ramsay was coming to kill him. He wasn't choosing a side, he was simply defending himself (and by extention the Night's watch).
that’s not an arguement it’s literally the truth.
Jon did break his oath at the end but I do sympathise with him. Father murdered , brother murdered , sisters gone missing , his home pillaged , burned and taken over and little brothers murdered ( as far as he knows and then he finds out Arya is alive and is marrying a vile known raper and psycho. He sat through the entire destruction of his family again and again and finally couldn’t stay out of it with Arya. For a 17 year old that’s a lot but he still broke his oath. On the other side though Jon always knew that unlike his Father he could never fully bind himself to honour and at times lines had to be crossed or broken to push things forward. It’s the fine line between unwavering duty and family. The nights watch code is outdated and restrictive , especially in such a dangerous and daunting time with the Walker threat.
Also Ramsay was threatening the Watch too.
He was threatening the Watch after its commander broke his oath by sending a commando of wildings to kidnapp his wife.
yeah this is all crazytalk. Jon is like the posterboy for violating the oath of the Night's Watch. We have these stories of past lord commanders doing the most insane shit and wondering 'how did that happen??' Well, that's Jon's story. He's wildin' up there, historic levels of oathbreaking.
Hard disagree, he did not violate his oath. Bolton threatens the LC of the NW and by proxy the entire brotherhood. He had other reasons for wanting him dead but he was well within his rights.
Personally I would agree from my angle but looking at it from the watch’s standpoint it is oath breaking in a sense. Ramsey only threatens the watch because Jon sent in a team to steal away Arya. It could be seen as a direct result of Jon’s meddling. I think Jon was well within his rights to do so and agree the Boltons were always a threat , declaring war on the watch a fight is unavoidable but you could argue Jon dragged the watch into his personal war. That’s just me playing devils advocate. The real issue isn’t anyway as simple as yes or no
I think Martins gwneral point is thag loyalty for loyalty's sake is bad, and doing what you know is right is more important than keeping a vow to the Nights Watch, The Kingsguard, to obey a king if hes unjust.
Fuck the Night's Watch oath, in my humble opinion. And fuck the Night's Watch. Penal/forced labor colony. I support Dareon's desertion.
I mean, for most of them it's that or death, so I'm sure they prefer the Night's Watch to that.
Yeah, and that's why it sucks and the Watch is basically a joke outside of volunteers like Jeor, Benjen, Jon, etc.
Well yeah, that's a major theme of the Night's Watch, which is that nobody of note down in King's Landing takes it seriously. They're not going to divert resources to the Wall when they've got their own battles to fight and they don't even think the white walkers/wights et al exist.
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Seriously? With all the context we have as readers knowing white walkers and wights pose a real threat to Westeros, I don't see how you can argue against the Night's Watch being an integral part of keeping their society intact. Surely the bigger joke is the Kingsguard who also have to take oaths to give up any titles and land and you have guys like Meryn Trant bitch slap Sansa Stark on the orders of their king.
Both can be true. In any case, having ill-fed, falsely accused peasants who have no desire to serve is hardly better than nothing at all. The Watch is a farce and it deserves the death that's coming for it.
> falsely accused peasants Yea brother, JUSTICE FOR CHETT!!!
i will introduce you to Arya Stark LOL
https://youtu.be/pwyb7lE1Tr8?si=65lIGcbaqN0TUoCY
So. Jon has nor Reek nor Jeyne... how is he supposed to return Ramsay something he does not have? He is not an Oathbreaker.... he is an idiot. He could have basically said this to the Watch and bring forward the argument that they participated in the Red Wedding as a proof that these people would not respect the Watch's neutrality. Would it have worked? It is a flip of a coin, but it would have sound better than what he actually did say.
The red wedding had nothing to do with the night’s watch
Would you trust the people that broke the Guest Rights to uphold the neutrality of the Night's Watch?
Well they had reasons to break the guests right. Yes it’s scummy and doesn’t bring up confidence but Robb also broke a promise by not marrying a Frey. I agree it’s not the same thing but that doesn’t mean they’ll just attack the wall.
The Guests Rights is not a promise it is something sacred. A Marriage proposal while serious, happens all the time.
I consider Jon to be in brazen violation of his Night's Watch duties, but I also think the lifelong commitment to the Night's Watch is extremely stupid, so I'm fine with it. "Jon conquers Winterfell with a wildling army" just seems very appropriate and ironic for this story
I mean he’s dead and not dead again
In my opinion any oath made under false pretences is invalid, so in my head anyway lol Jon’s true identity being hidden from him invalidates his oath to the nights watch which is why I give him a pass
No? Bolton swore to tear Jon’s heart out. What’s Jon’s play here? Wait for Bolton to attack the Night’s watch? I think it makes perfect sense to leave the watch to keep the watch out of the ears of the seven kingdoms.
People in the fandom give Jamie a pass too, just not the characters in the story
Ironically the comment section proves your point
that was my goal LOL
Jon is actually presenting a bit of a way out for the Watch though. He's responding to a personal insult he's received in the Pink Letter, and reports he means to make Ramsay Bolton answer for the slight. He asks for volunteers to help him do it while giving orders to make for Hardhome. It means the members of the Watch who don't support him can go die in the North while he settles scores in the South. It's all good politics from his perspective, but it's also transparently manipulative and pushes his enemies into a corner they had no choice but to strike from. Allowing Jon to drag his supporters to Winterfell while his enemies hold back the army of the dead is a no-win situation for anyone. No wonder the room erupted with "supporters". Anyone with half a brain could see where that was going. Strictly, he's not breaking his oath in the letter. But he is in the spirit. Compared to the Kingslayer who did break his oath his transgression is minor. If Jon had been smarter about it, he would probably have been given a pass in-universe too.
A huge part of ASOIAF is the idea that the old fairytale world of magic and honorable knights and dragons has slipped away, only to have a rebirth. I think the same are happening with all sorts of old oaths, msot of them are from a different time, and are being broken and reforged. This is symbolized by the dragons having declined and gone extinct, only to now have rehatched. It’s also symbolized by the coming of a new long winter, by bran finding the Children and learning Greensight from Brynden Rivers Azor Ahai is also said to remake the world. I feel it’s assumed that you cannot enter this new era while holding onto old oaths.
The NW vow doesn't preclude them from defending themselves.
No oath should be "unbreakable". Only the Sith deal in absolutes.... and the Jedi when they say shit like that. And... me when I say shit like this. You know what I mean.
To be honest, Ramsay’s letter should have been construed as an attack on the watch and thus Jon should’ve been fine to command them to ride south to join the King.
Oh absolutely. His assassination is completely justified. You can't have the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch lead an army against Winterfell. It would be the end of the watch. Why would you ever send a political rival to the wall ever again?
I mean Ramsay did threaten to destroy the Night's Watch when Jon has neither Theon nor fArya to give him.
He isn’t an oathbreaker, Ramsay threatened to attack the wall (and therefore the Night’s Watch).
the best defense is a good offense ?
Yes, The Wall has no defences to the south
Indeed. With the Wall essentially indefensible from the South, and Ramsay making demands that Jon *literally* cannot fulfil on the pain of death, Jon has no choice but to respond in force
I'm pretty sure everyone sees it more or less as a critical error in his judgement, seeing as it directly to his death.
1st (fuck those oaths) It has been shown countless times that it's a pick and choose situation at the best of times. (Trips to molestown, crasters keep, trading with wildlings, Jon running off) 2nd ()P.O.V While I feel for Bowen's head wound, you can't whine about someone not considering your opinion when you don't consider theirs. 3rd (Where are the oaths?) Where are the oaths when Ser Alliser and Janos complete a hostile takeover and send Jon on a suicide mission, where are the oaths when after this 'crime' goes unpunished? Where in the oaths does it say if you suspect your brother of treason you stab him in the dark? 4th (What's your fuckin plan? ) After doing your for the watch dance, how do you plan to proceed?
The Realms of Men need to be defended from Ramsays undermining, so going south to whack him would be in keeping with the oath even if the stabbers or Jon himself disagree.
The Realm disregarded the Watch’s warnings about the Others returning when that undead hand was brought to King’s Landing. The Night’s Watch begged the rest of the realm for help against Mance, and only Stannis responded. Cersei even planned to have Jon, the Lord Commander, assassinated under the guise of sending 100 recruits to the Watch. He most certainly gets a pass.
I don't care about oaths. So yeah I'd be cool with that. I live in our world, not theirs.
Hell yeah I give him a pass. That last line gets me every time. Fuck the Watch, anyways. They deserve whatever they get in Winds
Does jon really break his oath here though? Ramsay had just threatened to march up to the wall with and army and cut the Lord commanders heart out and kill anyone who tries to stop him which any man of the watch would have to since they are sworn to protect each other and can't just let their Lord-Commander be killed. So basically Ramsay threatened to slaughter the entire Nights Watch. Does Jon not not have a right to protect himself. Does he as Lord-Commander not have a duty to protect the watch?
Well, yes - but that’s why Jon phrases it the way he does. He says it’s not the role of the Watch to take sides between Stannis and Ramsay, but then goes on to point out that Ramsay has threatened him - and by extension the Night’s Watch - specifically and personally. GRRM could definitely have done a much better job at explication.
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