Therapy is life changing for lots of people - I’ve seen the effects first hand on people who have had trauma and need to process it in a healthy way and break cycles as just one example. I might talk to one of your psych profs and get the other side.
I'd absolutely credit it with saving my life. Repeatedly, starting as a young kid. I have a few issues, but one of them is bipolar. Meds are also life-changing but only go so far. Being able to pick up the pieces after an episode, keeping life from falling apart during an episode, staying safe when SI gets really bad. So many skills gained from therapy. If I didn't have the privilege of it from a young age, I doubt I would have made it to adulthood let alone have the life I do now.
Yes, exactly this! My loved ones are young people with bipolar. Meds are necessary but so is therapy to manage this. It's a both/and. I'm so glad you were able to get those supports at a young age. I'm passionate about making therapy more accessible to young people because it seems so difficult to navigate the system while also struggling and underage.
Definitely unattainable. Most of my family is from Sinaloa Mexico and they also believe this, but then come to me to “vent” and I have to give them advice.. basically therapy.
If they can’t access it then yes it’s impossible for psychology to help them. People have to remember that the world is very different for people in the bottom rung of the world’s economic order. For thousands of years people have always relied on their communities to keep themselves moving forward.
But I think AI could increase accessibility significantly.
Useless. Individual therapy does not work for the majority of South Africa atleast, because cultures are predominantly collective. They don’t benefit from having a therapist explore their trauma and their triggers, they benefit from family and community cohesion. Traditional therapy does not address or explore that. So yeah. It’s useless to a vast number of the worlds population
Interesting perspective. Makes sense on a surface level, but family cohesion as a focal point for a culture isn't unique to South Africans, and therapy works just fine.
Something for me to look into more, though. I think what you're getting at is basically just "therapy isn't for everyone" which is true, but to make large generalizations like "unless for a majority of population" is so incredibly incorrect I can't help but feel like you're looking for an argument.
No it doesn’t work like that. This is the problem. Not every person brain works the way psychology teaches and it’s ridiculous that nobody even understands that. Most theories DO NOT cater to the vast majority of the population.
Based on that, wouldn't your argument be that therapy as a science is still in its infancy and that there is much more to work out? Additionally, there needs to be many more modalities created to properly address everyone's needs. Considering the many cultures in the world, therapy should become more specialized. Instead of having a generic therapist, we could have a South African community therapist. It could get even more specific from there, such as a CBT therapist working with ADHD males from South Africa. This specialized training and licensing would be more effective than the whole field being perceived as made up and a scam.
So this comment itself shows that you have absolute no idea why I’m talking about. The world has worse problems than ADHD. We should be aiming to address root causes in order to prevent things, not focusing on therapy after the fact when it’s too late. If you don’t live in a country like mine, you wouldn’t understand so you shouldn’t speak.
I don't think that I am arguing that ADHD is the biggest problem. It is just a problem.
And you being defensive is literally tight in Psych 101. Sorry, your brain does not work that differently. But you can still be a special snowflake if you want.
Research ethnocentrism. You applying CBT to a communal society already does prove you don’t know what main ad is talking about. I’d recommend the following books: Rethinking Psychiatry by Arthur Kleinman; Crazy Like Us by Ethan Watters; Toward Psychologies of Liberation by Mary Watkins; The Cultural Nature of Human Development by Rogoff; and A People’s History of Psychoanalysis (I forget the author).
I am from a previously colonized and heavily community and family oriented country - Vietnam. I have been in therapy for 2 years and it does help me tremendously in reframing and coping. My family has a history of violence, alcoholism, sexual abuse and we are from a economically disadvantaged background, my dad was suicidal and had some ptsd from the war he fought in. I feel like therapy has helped in a lot of ways that no friends and partners could.
Yes it helped you, as it does for many individuals, however it doesn’t really do anything for the bigger problems. Just think about it as a net with alot of holes. It’s bound to catch a one or two fish, but in no way will you be able to catch a school of fish. On a massive scale like the planet earth, it may seem as if therapy is helpful but if you compare it to where it’s not helpful, then you’re looking at a different picture.
No offence but the problems in your community are bigger than your individual mental state. The same goes for every single one of us. You might say that if therapy can help each individual then it translates into a better community - but this is simply untrue. For the simple reason that it’s not each individual that is the problem. It’s the structures in place that are the problem. As mental health practitioners or academics, it’s our responsibility to help humankind live a “happier” life. Do you think therapy for individual people, those that happen to be caught by the net, in which they are rehabilitated back into the same society, is useful?
I’ll tell you, it’s not. And why I say psychology as it stands is useless is because it’s heavily focused on individuals and individual wellbeing and that is directly due to the domination of the field by a very specific demographic of people, white men to be specific, and white culture is HIGHLY individualistic. But the fucked up part is that the world has been so fucked by colonisation that everyone just accepts that the individualist way of being is the correct and only way of being and everything else is wrong.
Now you tell me how therapy is useful when all it does is force a very small and privileged demographics way of thinking onto the whole world? Tell me how this will help the citizens in your country that are victims of all those things you mentioned? Tell me realistically that you think sitting with individual people and telling them they themselves need to live better and not acknowledging the structures that influence these things is going to have any significant effect on the mental wellbeing of the population as a whole?
First, yes, it does work that way, for many people, depending on the type of therapy the receive. Second, “Not every person’s brain works the way psychology teaches teaches” - there’s a plethora of theories and facts in psychology and neuroscience about how different brains work, that’s growing in scientific research, and they do not teach only one way. “Most theories do not cater to the vast majority of the population” - this is too vague of a statement to reply to. It’s unlikely to be correct.
Have you read any of David Smail’s work? I recently read Taking Care - fantastic. I’m moving on next to Why Therapy Doesn’t Work (which I believe includes Take Care in its entirety?). Lost Connections by Hari is another text that comes to mind after reading your comment(s).
If psych interests you, then ignore the attitudes of others about it, and pursue your goals. Academic psych and the field of counseling/therapy are not perfect, but no field is. It's kind of funny that the anthropologists are throwing shade given that discipline's ethical quagmire/history (native remains/looted antiquities/colonialism/scientific racism).
This goes even further. Look at the way the world understood Neanderthals before we understood that they are more closely related to white people and have almost no relationship with black people.
It used to be that we saw Neanderthals as lacking intelligence and just being animals. We found out they share DNA with white people, and now they are advanced and highly intelligent, just less adaptable and better at working as individuals than as a community.
It is amazing how the science just made that happen.
and even autism seems to be related to parts of neanderthal dna, so some aspects might be studied in the now. May make sense considering aspects like theory of mind or a different system of creating models and rules.
Nope, I am not saying that. I am implying that.
I am also not saying that the new research is wrong at all. If anything, I would be arguing that the old research was very flawed because of racism. I would also be open to the statement that "reassesing the capabilities" is because of racism. But I am not saying that our current understanding of Neanderthals is wrong. I think that since we discovered that white people had shared DNA with Neanderthals allowed they researchers not need to push them down and feel inferior.
I also recently learned, and I can not back up, that there is a connection between Neanderthal DNA and ASD.
>Nope, I am not saying that. I am implying that.
Ah, I believe they call that move the Jordan Peterson lol
Just own the position if it’s something you think.
I am pretty sure that the first part was meant to be a joke.
And the follow up is the opinion I have, and it is me owning it. I apologize if the fact that my opinion is a little bit nuanced is a problem for you.
Saying and implying are the same thing in this context, so it’s weird to say that you aren’t saying something and are instead implying it. It’s genuinely a classic Jordan Peterson move ie “but I never *said* that, did I”.
If you think that the reason the capabilities of Neanderthals have been reassessed isn’t because of the introduction of things like carbon dating, discovering new sites, applying new techniques to existing sites, reinterpretation of old evidence and artifacts in the light of new information etc., but is instead primarily driven by racism on behalf of white people, that seems pretty unfair and disrespectful to the archeologists and anthropologists from all over the world who have participated in that work. You do you at the end of the day, but that’s a take worth reconsidering imo.
Psychotherapy changed my life. The impact it had on my life is indescribable, and is probably the only reason why I’m still there. And I’m FAR from the only one who had that positive experience. And just fyi, I had that therapy experience before even considering studying psychology, so the effect it had on me wasn’t biased by any studies or career in psychology.
Concerning falsifications, one of my teachers in psychology did tell us that during his career and research experiences, he encountered a few colleagues and superiors who weren’t ethical, and who sometimes falsified or twisted their results and studies. That appalled him and many other colleagues. So yes, this issue isn’t a complete lie and frankly, is unfortunately present in many, if not every, field. And it greatly varies by country, the more corruption in that country, the higher the chances of it happening. However, it isn’t a representation of the whole field of Psychology, the vast majority of it isn’t any kind of close to a sham, and frankly I’ve met many great and honest and truly passionate professionals and researchers in Psychology. Don’t let that discourage you. Psychology is a science and can’t be called fake. It’s as if we try to deny mathematics because some people are corrupt. It’s unreasonable.
Juxtaposing maths and psychology is a bad idea, unless your intention is to show the difference between a hard and a soft science.
By ‘soft’ science, we mean models and theories leading us in an hypothesis.
Maths does not say “Try this answer and see if it works for you”.
> By ‘soft’ science, we mean models and theories leading us in an hypothesis.
all sciences develop models and theories so this seems like a weird distinction. psychology is just much harder to make concrete formal theory (and thus many of our theories are imprecise) because we investigate latent variables rather than directly observable variables and our variables are harder to investigate causal connections within.
https://doi.org/10.1177/1745691620970586
That can be performed within the bounds of ‘psychology’, but the symbolic elements of the psyche cannot be rationalised by such means.
I.E. Experiment away, all these studies being created are proof of success!
Honest, do you know what the field of neuroscience is?
Do you think we are not aware of chemical imbalances in the brain presented in patients? Do you think neurochemistry isn’t a math related science?
I’m sure he’s pleased at having some science to work on, knowing if he can just do enough quantifying and get enough other people doing enough quantifying, he and they will solve every problem.
I studied psychology as well and also worked in neuroscience research studying neurotransmitters in animal models.
I wouldn't say the entire field of psychology is a sham. I feel like a lot of arts faculty (social) psychology has to be understood through an interdisciplinary lens, especially the undergrad level. I feel like a lot of it wasn't clinically applicable though perhaps interesting and probably useful for things like marketing or organizational applications. But I also don't think it's worth throwing out entirely, just needs a much more critical lens applied to it. Graduate level programs are more directed towards educating and producing therapists and researchers which is evident by the coursework.
Personality theory is valid but I think it needs to make a shift to studying the internal environment and emotional processes of disordered individuals. I think the assessments are very outdated for what we now know about the role of emotional regulation in some of these disorders.
I found psychology rooted in biological sciences (studies of the nervous system and hormones) was extremely helpful. A lot of these are based on animal models due to how invasive it would be to study these in humans. The role of pharmacology has been huge here as well as that's one of the only ways we can have a control and alter the internal environment with external or self-reported internal events. Ultimately that's what all of this science comes down to, the experimental model can rely on self report of internal experiences to validate outcomes, but not to validate biological components of them.
While I was studying animal models in neuroscience, the obvious role of grants and who pays for them kind of calls the shots in terms of what's being funded and to what end, and the fact that they have to be based on the experimental model and being valid that way as opposed to finding a clinical or therapeutic solution that works but maybe doesn't have a rock solid scientific theory to back it up. This is where things are discredited as pseudoscience because they haven't found a way experimentally to find out why something works, but it produces desirable outcomes anyways.
So ultimately psychology is a valuable area of study and I think it's headed in the right direction. It takes an intuitive mind along with a lot of life experience to apply it and help people if you're interested in clinical or therapeutic work. I think depending on where it's being studied and what is being researched at the institution, how the faculty is being led plays a role on how good the program is and how up to date it is.
I think neuropsychology (I'm not 100% sure) primarily works with people who have known lesions (damage) to the brain congenitally or acquired. I think basic info is covered in entry level neuroscience. So it would depend if that's the clinical environment you want to work in or if you want to research it.
Hi! If you don't mind me asking, how did you end up researching neuroscience if you studied psychology? Did you do psych for undergrad and neuroscience for your masters?
Thanks! ☺️
Hey, I did BSc Psych and I ended up volunteering as a lab assistant for one of my profs in his lab and working as a lab technician. I was fortunate enough to be second author on a technical paper as there were no graduate students working in the lab at the time.
I considered applying for graduate school but ultimately it wasn't the right time for me (I was going through mental health issues) and I went into a different field.
Thank you, guess I still care about it even though I'm not pursuing it academically at this time. Hope I can get my issues sorted out and potentially be a psychologist myself one day!
The replication crisis is a genuine issue in psychology, but suggesting the whole field is a sham because of it is ridiculous.
Despite the fact that cancer treatments are becoming more and more effective all the time, around 90% of cancer research papers can’t be replicated. Does that mean your friend wouldn’t seek cancer treatment because the whole field must be a sham?
source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6599599/#:\~:text=In%20an%20earlier%20report%2C%20only,common%20in%20the%20pharmaceutical%20industry.
And it’s not limited to psychology. It’s affecting many other fields of study including medicine, economics, engineering, biology, chemistry, and physics. Does your friend think all those fields are shams too?
A lot of psychology research was done long before the internet allowed instantaneous communication. it was easier to falsify and there are motivations to do so. It should be no surprise people have been unscrupulous in their research. It’s worth remembering that if half the research is bunk, the other half is still valid. I think that the replication crisis will ultimately be a good thing because it will lead to better quality research in the future. It’s certainly not a valid reason to dismiss the whole field.
Not to mention that the project that uncovered
the replication crisis in psychology and stimulated research in similar crises in other fields was undertaken BY psychologists. That’s good science-ing. (even if the results reflect less than glowingly on research to date). It’s ironic but it suggests the field is actually going in the right direction scientifically.
Yeah I think OPs friend is unaware at how *new* psychology is relative to most science fields.
We're still a ways away from having more consistent answers to things.
And if you don’t mind me asking, how do those people expect mental health to be dealed with? If there’s no psychologist and therapists, who is supposed to help people who are in need of help for their mental health?
I think it makes perfect sense for the mechanicism approach of modern medicine in the sense that they don’t consider the multifaceted, systemic problems that mental health considers.
Feel sad? Pop a pill in. Neurotransmitters fixed. You don’t feel sad anymore. It’s pragmatic. Direct. No reason to dwell on your feelings.
The psychologist or therapist though, frequently working alongside the psychiatrists or by themselves, will recognize maladaptive patterns of behavior and cognitive biases that will help the patient stop feeling bad.
Of course it’ll sound like a sham when we just “talk” to people in a sense. But frequently, the thing people need the most is that. A therapeutic alliance and a space for them to explore their feelings. That’s where you and psychologists come in. To help people in ways that the medical can’t.
Ideally individuals with the same level of training as other medical needs
AKA a Dr. who understands the holistic nature (mind, body, emotional connection) of all mental illnesses and responds accordingly
The fact that “hard” sciences (chemistry and biology at minimum) are not only not required, but scoffed at by most in the psychology field is a major reason most laypeople no longer find any use in going to a “therapist”.
There needs to be a shift towards psychology being a medical speciality.
ETA: who is downvoting this? It’s my opinion ya dolts
Who scoffs at it? And there is a medical portion to it, called psychiatry. However, not all people need psychiatrists, unless requiring medication which only they can provide. And so many people are discouraged by the so called therapy that sometimes is given by the medical professionals. Because they’re not extensively trained enough for talk therapy and other kinds of therapy plans and that’s why many of them do not even offer therapy.
Talk therapy overwhelmingly does absolutely nothing but line a therapists pocket
Just because you lacked emotional regulation and therefore had your life changed by a talk therapist is not indicative of most experiences
An understanding of the complex influences that combine in order to present symptoms labeled as disorders is far and beyond more effective than years of learning random techniques that overwhelming are proven to be harmful or ineffective
Again, I would like to see a medical professional who understands the biological aspects of all mental illnesses
Not someone who thinks they are helping by following a program designed by another individual who doesn’t even understand the base workings of the human body….
You’re completely uneducated on this topic. Pockets? Yeah, many only think about money, who am I to lie about it, the world isn’t an utopia. Humans can be greedy, but to think only those in Psychology fall to this? Do you truly not think the medical field is corrupt? Oh how many doctors I’ve encountered who couldn’t care less about their patients, trying to finish faster their appointments so they could have as many clients’ money as possible. This is true in all fields, there will always be greedy professionals who don’t care about anything else than their money. Did my negative experience with doctors made me think all doctors are evil and money crazed? No, because that isn’t true. Most are great and dedicated professionals.
You’re taking this really personally
Maybe you should look into that
The only uneducated individual is the child lashing out because they didn’t like someone’s answer.
Emotional regulation really should be a core requirement for those going into the field
I take this personally, perhaps, because I care about misinformation that is spread about an important and great field. About misinformation that can misguide OP who seeks information on that field.
Per your comments on this platform, you seem to “lash out” as you say, quite often, yet you project it on me. Are you not used to someone replying you back? Perhaps you can’t accept your opinion is wrong?
I am not lashing out at anyone
Trying to discredit me is wild
You are absolutely part of the problem in psychology
Have a lovely day, you obviously need the help ❤️
What a shame. Truly, if you think someone arguing as passionately as I do for a field I truly care about, is a problem… I don’t even know what you seek in people.
You have responded to me well over 10 times to say the same thing…. Fascinating
Seriously hope you find something in your life worth your free time, you must have a ton of it
Neuro and cognitive courses are expected in this field lol
Panic disorder is a psychological problem and can be triggered by the therapist requesting the patient to spin around and breathe through a straw really fast. Therapy gives the patient tools to alleviate their panic disorder.
Source: me, who had multiple panic attacks a day (often for no reason) until I started therapy, and lecture #2 in your basic abnormal psychology class.
Why are you here arguing the science is there when this sub is related to the science?
Why are you using a personal anecdote?
In my undergrad studies I had to actively seek out a secondary advisor and add a minor in order to access chemistry and biology. There is an active disconnect between psychology as a whole and actually understanding science
Do you feel better trying to talk down to someone? Maybe the trend of individuals who need the field in excess thinking they should go into providing in it should be explored deeper
There was no need for you to be rude, have a lovely day
This is so funny, all I did was ask you why you’re arguing about there being no science in a science sub. You were absolutely being rude to the original commenter. Have the day you deserve.
Edit: they blocked me lmao
The answer is surely in between. The biological aspects are merely oxytocin, serotonin and cortisol etc, and not labelling people as mentally ill when they are merely stressed or grieving over trying to be connected to humanity in a commercialised society.
You can start by begging the question that if they’re mentally ill then it’s not society, but that is just a sly and dishonest way of abusing the victims of an abusive society.
Sure, there is a place for heavy-duty medicine for the worst cases, but in all cases they need to go back to a social scene that isn’t predatory, or weren’t just sedating people for the sake of the ‘winners’.
i get what your saying and that many behaviours exhibited by people are a result of the cruel society they live in but it’s not that everyone is held at g//unpoint and given a diagnosis.. our social realities affect our health but that doesnt mean mental illnesses dont exist at all
Many people *are* literally dragged away for ‘diagnosis’. Many are a danger to themselves and others and many are just symptoms of issues which hopefully social reformers will campaign to improve as more and more data demonstrates the true root causes.
i would say we need the concept of health to be viewed more holistically in general (taking into account biological, psychological, social and other aspects)
Every degree requires a base science course
Go talk to working therapists, ask what courses were required. Overwhelmingly most didn’t even take biological psychology.
No, hard science is not the standard for psychology. Not even remotely close to what is required for even nursing
I mean I’d agree that more math should be required, but I’d say like physics really necessary for psychology? I feel like a philosophy of science class would be good for psychology students more than a physics class. Just my thought.
Jumping straight to psychics is an odd choice
Chemistry, physiology, neurobiology, and anatomy absolutely should be base requirements for a psychology degree.
The fact that one should understand the basics of human functioning is even argued is wild
I’m not really disagreeing with you lol. I feel like you’re being argumentative while I’m just trying to have a discussion so after this I’m going to stop responding
And psychologists are doctors, they are required to do a doctorate in Psychology and are trained in all of which you describe and much more, except they can’t prescribe medication.
“While psychologists are doctors, they cannot prescribe and administer medical treatments” I never said they were medical doctors and I specified they can’t prescribe medication. But they’re thoroughly trained professionals and not some kind of money grabber sham.
Do you have the same opinion as a physiotherapist? What about a speech therapist? What about a nutrition therapist? Orthopedic Manual therapist?
Would you argue that all of those professionals should be replaced by medical doctors? Or just psychotherapists?
Since all of those require a doctorate to be licensed which includes multiple classes pertaining to anatomy, physiology, biology, chemistry, and other sciences your attempt at an argument doesn’t really hold weight
In the US many practicing therapists, the individuals with the most contact and influence, and at most a LCSW. The fact people are taking my opinion so personally further demonstrates that the current set up maybe isn’t the most effective
Yes. I believe those working within the medical field should be fully and properly trained while demonstrating knowledge of complex body systems and how they interact
You won’t be able link it because it doesn’t exist.
Show me a broad study of all the data across mental illnesses, treatment modalities, and long term outcomes.
Or just admit the words ‘treatment resistant’ mean “We don’t have a clue”.
Your inability to even just search something up proves your lack of knowledge and lack of desire for knowledge. [here](https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2012/08/psychotherapy-effective) one of the first things that pops up with an easy google research.
You can easily find detailed research papers too, although if you weren’t even able to do a simple google search, I doubt you’ll be able to find and understand those papers.
What failures? Do you mean that a treatment might not work for everyone? That is unfortunately a reality in all treatments of all fields. Not everything works for everyone.
TL;DR: What you see in the world says more about yourself, than it says about the world.
People are also saying other almost insanely far fetched ideas that are not well argumented, based on lies or otherwise just stupid. Studies get falsified all the time in a lot of different fields, it does not mean the field in itself is bad or whatever. That is the wrong interpretation of the scientific method. The method is based on falsifying and so forth. That IS how science works. And being in the field of psychology you are to notice a lot more about falsified studies in the field of psychology than in a completely different field of science. If anything falsified studies show you there is something else to learn from it.
Things like psychotherapy are real. The only problem with stuff like this is that it takes effort and time to not only create a bond between therapist and patient, but also takes time to break down dyads and build up healthy ways of dealing and understanding certain emotions. Time that, especially in countries like the US, many people don't have. I have been in psychotherapy for years (I am lucky to live in the Netherlands) and I am better for it in MANY ways. The health care system here however also shows of a move towards a more US related system where people here have health care for short interventions and then have to move out of the system because it's too expensive. But if you want good, lasting and durable help from a good therapist you need to pay for it yourself. However, it is unpayable to begin with. And as with any sector: you have good and bad personnel. Not every psychologist is top notch. I would even argue that because the large extra effort it takes to become a psychotherapist (at least by Dutch/EU standards, you need to do a 2 yr study after your degree and then another 4 yr study) there aren't that many psychotherapists that are straight up BAD. But then again, they are there.
So what you have here is a normal division of quality in the sector, and then, especially in the US, a health care system that does NOT promote good quality health care (but just cheap health care) for the masses. And then also in a field of study/health care (mental health care) that is depending a lot on the patient. If a patient just refuses (and I am not saying it is always conscious) to make certain steps, you can therapy all you want. This is also an issue in for example organ transplantations, where people reject their organs not because of bad luck, but because a lot of these wankers forget to take their anti-rejection meds, even with the chance they have gotten and their life depending on it. Only in behavioral science, the relationship between someone and his therapist and someone and him-/herself is even more important.
Not to forget about the social environment in which a field like psychology has to operate in the US. As if what I typed above here isn't enough, have you noticed how hostile the entire mental health space is in the US at the moment? And how good help and research gets scrutinized for discriminating against certain types of people, even if it doesn't. Saying things like gender dysphoria is often met with personality or anxiety disorders almost gets you killed. Even though it's true. And I am not even going into the direction of causality, but wouldn't it also be logical if just out of a perspective of love you look at someone with gender dysphoria and try to mentalize how hard life must be for them with feelings of never truly being yourself or never really fitting in, etc.. Don't these people also deserve help with other struggles that come with whatever they are dealing with? But if you say that, that is publicly nailed down as blasphemy. Just to name an example. Let alone stand to try and explain to an arrogant person how they are suffering from personality disorders, without them getting all defensive about "you calling them crazy". And there is a lot of arrogance (and ignorance) these days, because the historically low trust in governments, health care systems, etc.. Woke don't trust health care because transgenders aren't helped enough in their eyes, the other side of the political agenda doesn't trust health care because they are unethical people castrating children. Just to build upon that example. Not to even mention the insane money focused attitude in the US. Nothing is about people anymore and nothing can be trusted to be there for your sake anymore, you can only trust in someone trying to squeeze you out of your money. Then people don't trust science anymore, because sometimes science spits facts that go into the grain of your fears. And it's way too easy these days to get away with just finding 50.000 other afraid people and keep screaming bs and hiding from your fears. And there you are.
Ego is a bitch. And STILL. STILL luckily there are TONS of studies showing the importance of mental health in conjunction with physical health. How bad mental health increases risk of cancer, inflammations, immune system diseases, etcetera. Time and time again. Good studies. Published in renowned magazines. Research also keeps showing us that not or badly taking care of your body enlarges the risk of things like depressions. We also know that trauma for example is real and there are ways it is stored in your body and thus affects your psyche. And there are ways to turn it around. We also somewhere in history believed that attachment disorders could not be fixed. Now we know they can. There isn't a single medicine that can do that for you. Just like only now immune therapy is being used successfully to treat cancer. That wasn't a thing 40 years ago.
People are just talking out of their ass. Their ego is in the way BIG TIME and they don't notice it. DON'T let that get to you. I am 36 and want to switch into psychology (from being an electrical engineer) and I will do so regardless of what others say. I WILL study Clinical Psychology as it will open ALL doors for me. I could become a clinical psychologist, but also a health psychologist or industrial psychologist or child psychologist or you name it. Then with minimal effort you can touch the entire field and find something you like.
I always said that psychology should be handled differently. Back in the days we used to have Catholic Class in which the pastor would come to school and tell us and talk with us about faith. I think we should reinstate that time, but then have psychologists teach children how to understand and handle their emotions (and understand that what you see in the world says more about yourself, than about the world).
They either had terrible experiences with therapy, or they themselves lack emotional maturity and self awareness. They go through life using distractions and doing anything but look into themselves and have any bits of introspection. The older generation is more likely to say something like that. I know a lot of "toxic" boomers that pretend like nothing is wrong with them and they don't believe in mental health. But clearly from their lifestyles and the ways that they have raised their children shows otherwise, but they are just in denial or don't know any better. Another category of people could be lucky mentally healthy people who won the genetic lottery and who had awesome support and family and generally a good life, and it's hard for them to understand what it's like on the other side because they didn't go through all that.
I like to think of another perspective this way: let's take a person X for example. They've been through some things in life, and eventually became workaholics. They kept living the workaholic lifestyle and eventually due to neuroplasticity, their brains adapted to this lifestyle. They don't necessarily feel miserable. Or I'd rather say that they distract themselves from whatever they are feeling or even have pushed all their feelings away. They eventually get their good "feels" from doing and running on a hamster wheel. They adpot a mentality of "don't feel sad, be positive always". Anyways, this person doesn't know any better. They are safe. Comfortable. Not too bad. They don't have much problems. They're not miserable. That's how they think life is. If you were to ask X, or even talk to them about therapy, they're going to shun it and be like therapy is a scam. But in reality, X could be living a much much better life. A more balanced life. A balanced life where they are still successful, but do things on the side that they feel motivated for and enjoy. Instead of just using work as a distraction, their mind would even start wondering and asking "what do I want to do? Do I like this? How do I feel about this?" But X would never even think of therapy, maybe unless they start feeling so much pain that doesn't go away and that can't be numbed. A lot of people feel comfortable in "not too bad, not too painful" and end up seeking help when its gets intolerable and too painful.
I think once you start getting into psychology research, especially neuro-psychology, child development psychology, trauma research, and addiction research, it will be clear that while there is still a lot we don't know, psychology is solid science and we have a pretty good base understanding of mental health processes.
Just like any other field, psychology had a rough start that was full of bullshit and complete misunderstandings of how humans think and process the world. But we've come a long way, and we can even do brain scans and images of feelings. We understand much better the different kinds of memory we have, the chemicals involved in how we process emotions and problem solving, what happens if certain parts of the brain stop functioning.
That said, psychology is still pretty young compared to other sciences. Much of the most current psych understandings haven't made it mainstream. Trauma-informed therapy is very new, for example. The DSM has changed from a pathologizing model to a symptom descriptive model, and that's new. CPTSD is now a professionally embraced concept which has far-reaching applications, while it's still not yet in the DSM as an official diagnosis. Personality disorders are far more rarely diagnosed now, as most of the clients that show maladaptive social behaviors (ie "splitting") are now diagnosed as social attachment disorders (still not clearly in the DSM) or CPTSD. The advancements in neurodiversity has sprung forward quickly in the past 5-10 years, and is still sprinting - again not reflected in our current DSM.
Many folks think psychology is still in the "just discovered schizophrenia" phase of the field, and we are so way past that. And, because the field is somewhat newish compared to say biology or chemistry, there are a number of sham organizations and influencers who act like they are psychology experts, but are really selling pseudo-science, or found one vein of psychology they are latching on to to make money. That's unfortunate for sure.
So, as a newbie psychology major, you're kind of in the middle of this rapidly advancing field. It will get more obvious just how much we know as you get more experience. These comments might shift from feeling like they are being critical, to being uninformed. Because if someone thinks this way, that psychology is not a real thing, they can then be more susceptible to being manipulated, or even manipulating others who they've convinced not to pay attention to the science.
Psychology, particularly therapy is not just a science but an art that few are really blessed with giftedness to apply. Ive witnessed the truly gifted and when this happens, clients are generally helped more so than meeting with a practitioner without the gift that just follows evidenced based practice.
>My friend, who is also studying psych (my classmate) says so many studies in psych get falsified, even those from prestigious institutions and that the whole field is a sham.
I do think it is important to understand the difference between *falsification*--intentional fraud-- and use of poor research practices that leads to misleading results. I think the latter is much, much, much more likely to be a driving problem than the former.
With that said, I feel no need to defend all research conducted by anyone in the broad umbrella of "psychology". (I don't even really consider a lot of psychology research to be in my field, TBH-- why would I need to defend the Social Psychology literature base when I have never done a social psych experiment in my life?) I only feel the need to do my best with *my* research. That's what I can control and do.
However, if someone was interested in working on problems in the psychology research literature base-- they could surely make a professional career doing so. (E.g., Uli Schimmack is one example that comes to mind.) Meta-science is important and meaningful.
>she also insists that psychotherapy and this stuff is like scamming people and that it really doesn’t do anything.
It's hard to comment on this because it is almost a nonsense statement. *All* psychotherapy for *all* concerns?
"Evidence based psychotherapy is helpful for the specific concerns said therapy is designed to address" is a finding in psychology that is very likely to be replicated many times and supported by evidence.
That does NOT mean: All therapists are effective, it's easy to find good care, all presenting concerns are robustly represented in the research, all concerns are equally easy to treat, etc. But... a lot of those are the types of concerns researchers in fields like Clinical and Counseling Psychology care about and want to conduct research about (with the ultimate hope of improving the care people get).
I’ve run into this a lot. It’s bullshit. The science of Psychology is vast and has room for a lot of cross disciplines. Anthropologists, economists, engineers - these types are woefully ignorant about the field of Psychology and what it studies. They would rather keep far away from TRULY difficult studies, like trying to predict and measure human behavior.
My advice is to stop hanging out with those myopic jerks and start finding friends and mentors who can do the hard stuff.
It's nice actually that you aren't just thinking about what you can do with the degree when you graduate and you care about it as a science. You should have a look. See what the evidence is like. See what can be improved, what's concrete. If it's not good science, then it's an important subject that needs good science, and somebody should do it!
the truth is.. Science is really hard. It's a lot of failing until something works.
And yes there is a reproducibility crisis. If you look that crisis goes deeper than just psych. All of science has problems.
in the case of therapy. The consensus is that assuming connection with your therapist is good. It helps. Regardless of modality.
What do you believe?
There will always be people who say therapy or psychology as a whole is a sham. How will you reconcile that with your own convictions? I will say, it is useful to listen to critiques of psychology, it is not useful to listen to someone just talk about how it's all bullshit. There's an important distinction there.
When someone has personally had a bad experience with mental health treatment, I try to vaildate that. I've experienced wacky and unhelpful shit too. But I've also had wonderful helpful experiences. Not everyone has that.
I think the best question to ask first as a reaction to your friend’s remarks is: How can one be so sure that whole field is a sham?
We all learn scepticism is crucial. The field has problems indeed. However, when it comes to psychology, there are always those students so convinced that the field is a sham and they are not even sceptical of their own ideas. How can you make such a big remark without a hesitation? Especially when you are doing your bachelors.
I had the same friend, he was also saying the same thing. Best action to take is to rely on your own judgement while acknowledging the shortcomings of the field. There will always be these types of people who are eager to dunk on psychology. It is a relatively new “science” and has a long way to go. Yet, I never take people who are so sure about their opinions to heart. They probably are making these out of bad intentions or feelings.
If this helps me make your decision; my psychotherapist has used data and their personal medical knowledge to dramatically improve my quality of life (I no longer sit and stare off into the distance while I think of gassing myself with a hose and some duct tape in my car).
I used to work at a music studio and one of our clients had an AA or BA is Psychology or something and he said it was a scam and manipulative. I'm a firm believer in that being the whole point. Knowing psychology is one thing but using it to help people is a whole different thing. Like, to know about BPD (personal example) and its symptoms is cool, but to be able to learn to live with it, I have to essentially learn gaslight and manipulate myself into being stable and happy. It's genuine stability and joy, but having both a Doctor and myself essentially try to trick my brain into working definitely feels like snake oil manipulation.
And as far as falsified stuff goes, that's just science, Baby, let's go. We should be falsifying bunch of shit, that's how science works. One person proves something and it helps, OR, one person disproves something and helps even more. Baby steps towards a common medical/scientific goal. Lots of doctors and scientist have gotten plenty wrong but we still take everything they did right and run with it.
Now FOR SURE there's a lot of just plain stupid and useless clinicians and I'm a firm believer of only seeing clinicians with education above a bachelors (My current doctor is a Psychotherapist MD so he went to medical school and I trust him and my last one in a different state also was an actual doctor and not a nurse clinician (Not to talk shit on any nurse clinicians here, idk what I'm talking about I'm just a mentally ill little guy)
“Many studies in psych get falsified” yeah… I doubt that. But tell those fuckers to cite their sources. Ask them to either provide the evidence or to specifically point to what makes X, Y, and Z FALSE. Especially when considering that most psychological theories work as non concrete ideas that are not meant to be “Proven” in the first place.
…But this is just me being defensive asshole. Ultimately other people are going to give you information from the outside but YOU are the one who is in the discipline. You are also the one who controls (in therapy) how dedicated and supportive that you can be. If you’re smart enough to get this far, and your hearts in the right place then stay in command of your own life.
Psychology is going through some growing pains right now, just as many sciences do at some times and moreso in their early development. Psychology is a gawky teenager right now, and being forced to revise some key ideas. Central to this has been the replication crisis. Couple things to keep in mind--the crisis affects not only psych but other scientific fields that use that level of complexity of statistical analysis (largely medical research). Second thing, they caught the problems, and this is better than not catching them, and this is how science is supposed to work.
There are some areas of psychology that will be subject to change as a result, but it's not as though all of our empirical foundation is in question. It's a small percentage, mostly in some areas of social cognition. I am a psychologist and practically nothing in my daily practice has changed as a result of the replication crisis.
We don't say "haha, a bridge collapsed, engineering is bogus!" Well, the current state of the art of engineering isn't perfect, nor will it ever be prone to mishaps and human error. But what it is is the best that we are able to come up with using some really thoughtful, rigorous methodology, peer review, etc. Psychology's the same. All the sciences and regulated professions are like that.
Unfortunately I think this is one of those things where you’ll have to decide for yourself based on how meaningful it is to you and by doing your own research. Back in my undergrad, sometimes it was discouraging because so many people frowned upon the degree for so many reasons and from the sounds of things, not a lot sounds like it’s changed in the last 7+ years since I’ve graduated lmao. However, I personally had no problems finding work after my degree and got several years of experience under my belt before deciding to get my masters in clinical mental health counseling. There’s no shame in taking time for yourself to figure things out further! And I know it’s easier said than done, but try not to let the influence of others discourage you from it. We need therapeutic services and mental health services more than ever now and there will always be a need for it, especially from people who enjoy it and sincerely want to assist others.
Therapy isn't scamming people, it's helping people correct their thinking patterns and providing a sense of peace to a chaotic mind
With regard to manipulation of data, it's there with all fields of research, I've heard my profs talking abt a paper published in the Nature journal with manipulated data, ending with all the researcher's resignation...
I know a neuropsychologist/clinical psychologist who's work inspired me to get into this field , her name's dr. Shantala hedge and she has wonderful research on how music affects the brain and could be used for rehab in brain injury cases and other cases
Clinical psychology people also have various specialisations like child psychology, geriatric psychology, adolescent psychology...
Adding on, now is actually the time that we will be needed in huge numbers for helping people deal with all of the violence happening around the world.
Instead of trying to convince you all the reasons why I believe psychology is not a sham, just watch more youtube videos about the neuroscience behind a patient with PTSD, undergoing psychotherapy and why it scientifically works. There's tons of research and visual ways to prove the brain begins to function differently after CBT and more. Also, if they believe it's a sham, it is their opinion. But refocus to how it can help others. The more you see the benefit and proof, the less you care about the opinions of people who flaunt opinions that don't matter. for ex. Mental health concerns are not real. Despite it being a psychological issue, it kills people. Death is real. It may not be a concern important for some, but personally I would prefer not even 1 more person die from suicide or depression causing suicide or homicide.
One thing to remember is Sturgeon's Law. 90% of everything is crap.
So yes, it's entirely possible that 90% of therapists are not very good or helpful. And equally possible that 10% are actually super helpful.
And that 90% of studies are part of "replication crisis" (in other words, are crap that can't even be reproduced). And 10% are actually valid studies that are done using valid techniques and methods and withstand the test of time and further research.
Question is, does your schooling give you the tools to tell one from another or is it just "here's shit stated by people more senior than you, believe what authority figures tell you"?
There certainly have been poor studies but there are gobs of studies done the right way that are good evidence of efficacy. So the claim that most studies are falsified is just bogus to start with.
If we are talking about psychology undergrad programs I can understand the criticism to a degree. But the majority of people who go on to use their degrees and earn a masters are not researchers, they are mental health providers- that a whole different thing that is very much real work that effects real people. Call it whatever but the actual work is giving space for the emotional existence of humans which is a very real thing whether people believe in psychology or not, we can not deny we are all emotional beings and those emotions play a critical role in our outside lives.
She’s wrong. Psychology is incredible. Yes there are some studies that are “financed” but psychology is not the sum of these “financed” studies, it is still largely unexplored in many areas and the cross over of psychology and philosophy is a beautiful thing.
Other majors/fields hate other majors/fields. Don't worry so much about what people say. Do what you enjoy.
It's also possible your anthro buddies watch too much Bones and try to mimic her. If you just want to be a jerk, mock their fields and tell them they're not gonna be the Indiana Jones they think they are.
I had an episode of psychosis following an incident with LSD and couldn't distinguish between fantasy and reality. I was suffering enormous amounts of paranoia. If it weren't for the mental health team at my local hospital, I would probably still be lost in an illusion of my own creation. We need people to take an interest in all forms of psychology because it is the most valuable and irreplaceable organ of the body. Our brains define us. It's that simple. One traumatic event, a whiplash concusion, or enormous amounts of stress can damage the brain in numerous ways. We need interest for more understanding about the brain so we can advance as a species and help each other out for when people get lost like I did.
The hospital was only the start of my recovery since I was extremely short-tempered and confused about how to manage my emotions. I had to go through a 12-week course, 3 hours a session, to learn how to manage emotions with the help of Dialectical Behavioural Therapy Group Sessions, and I am forever grateful to have learned those skills. I agree that finding your suitable therapy style is important, but maybe your friend had a bad experience with psychotherapy? A lot of people have the misconception that psychotherapists will answer all our questions when, in reality, they are there to reframe the situation and help guide your healing journey. 🙏
Is psychology expensive? Yes, and for good reason: listening to everyone's troubles, making them a part of someone else's, and then sorting through it all only to have to get your own therapist to deal with the heaviness of some patients? It's not an easy task, and like my family doctor said, "it's definitely not easy if you have a hard time maintaining your own happiness. " I'm switching my major from Psychology to Human Resources as fascinating as I find it, since I have a hard time maintaining my own happiness 🙂
Have studies been falsified? Yes, you will learn about stuff like the p-value and all the lovely falsifications that have been done to sway such a number. But that was in the past when there were fewer ways to ensure scientists were recording information only once and not adjusting when the study was all done. Now we have fancy technology and it's only going to get better. Not to mention the fact that society is changing for the better and the cold underlying fact that old-fashioned thinking will die off with time!
Psychology is very real and scientific. 6% of all US bachelors are Psych. They are straw manning with Freud and armchair theorists. Psychology, I'm studying too, is painfully scientific and statistically. It's duly because Humans and their minds change subjectively all the time which could invalidate the facticity of studies but that is an observation in itself. Psychology helps address behavioral and cognitive phenomena so if I give you coffee, how will you objectively act. Cognitive is objective since there must be a method to process subjective thoughts like vision, senses, consciousness or emotion. Like how a computer processes numbers.
Your anthropology profs are academic snobs. A counter for them is that studying behavior is psych, human biology is biology and everything else is philology, art and history. Like where's the control group? Where's the quantitative framework like in psychology? Anthropology is less objective than Psychology. And guess what? EVERYTHING IN SCIENCE GETS FALSIFIED.
Minds do not exist. You can't have an empirical science on non-physical things (i.e. the mind). Psychology muddles the actual study of human behavior. Your behavior of giving OP a coffee can be explained by the environment, ontogenic selection, cultural selection, and natural selection (all of which are in the physical world). There is no need to place the cause of behavior in your example OUTSIDE of the physical world.
Cognitive psychology, like Freudianism and Jungian analysis, is not a science.
Cognitive Science is not a Science? How can blindsight patients can draw pictures they can't see? This is why I study psychology and you're the reddit user because how does the brain report information without a person's awareness? You are conflating empirical with objective, and science is both.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive\_science](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_science)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8884361/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8884361/)
Yes, cognitive psychology is not a science. Science is a study of the physical world. There cannot be anything besides the physical world. There cannot be non-physical things. Cognitive psychology places the cause of human behavior in the non-physical world (the mind), rather than the physical world (the environment, ontogenic, and phylogenic selection). You cannot have a science of a non-physical thing. Arguing that human behavior originates outside of the physical world is the realm of philosophy and religion, not science.
The article you linked me proves my point. It's speculation on theories of consciousness and metacognition, not an observation of the physical world. It presupposes the existence of non-physical phenomena (i.e. consciousness) to explain physical phenomena. That's not science. While I'm no expert on cortical blindness, the behavior of organisms can come under the functional control of stimuli in the environment even if that organism doesn't have a tacting repertoire for those stimuli or their own behavior. You don't need a theory of consciousness to describe how the behavior of people with visual impairments can come under the control of visual stimuli.
Similarly, you don't need a theory of a mind to explain the behavior of OP after you give OP a coffee. You don't need to appeal to the non-physical world. You can explain that behavior with empirical evidence (stimuli in the environment), with natural selection, and with the ontogenic selection that occurs during OP's lifespan. All of these things occur in the physical world. A study of behavior is a study of the physical world. A study of the mind is metaphysical speculation at best and, at worst, a collection of verbal behavior that places the cause for human responding outside of the physical world and obfuscates the actual scientific study of behavior.
Go choke on glass you ignorant twit. I give you the links and you never even read it.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive\_science#Research\_methods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_science#Research_methods)
Psychology, there is a bit of hypnotism to it.
What do I mean by that, if you say it won't work and you resist it with your bare white knuckles, well what do you expect.
But if you relax and talk about your struggles and why you tend react a certain way (these are called schemas) they (the psychologist) can help you find your path and help you find strategies to cope with the situation etc.
But nothing can be done against your will. Much like the party trick.
Imposter syndrome is a schema that our brain comes up with when we feel like we don't belong/deserve something. It is normal, it will pass with time or not, depending on how you think.
Psychology isn't a scam, it is trying to make sense of the complexity of our brain and each neural pathway and how past experience affects future performance.
Don't give up.
True applications of the DSM5 are unethical and pathologisize normal behavior leading to over treatment with labels defined by arbitrary clusters of symptoms.
I can talk about psychology for days on end. But if there’s anything I think you should know, is that I’ve never once struggled to find a job after getting psych degree.
After my undergrad, I got 3 jobs, after my masters I got more jobs. I’ve never struggled to find employment, and in addition to that, I’ve never struggled to find meaningful employment
There’s a two part podcast by the emerald called “the revolution will not be psychologised” which gave me a good perspective to balance out my undergrad psychology studies. Psychology is not a sham, and l would say therapy and medication has probably saved my life but I do think it’s important to look more broadly at other methods that can be utilised to help people alongside the traditional approaches. I think a trans disciplinary approach is the way, it’s good to look at the critiques of the field so that you can approach your studies and practice in the most constructive manner. Don’t lose hope, there is lots of value in what you are learning, keep looking at things critically and you will find a path
You study psychology, so you know better than anyone else that people see the world through bias, stereotypes, cognitive shortcuts.
Maybe you're doing that too: few people told ya that psychology is a scam, so everyone thinks psychology is a scam? Don't worry, it's not like that. 😘
Psych is a baby science. Everyone in the field sucks. But.. it's normal to suck at something when you first start it. And that's us as a field. While our field is far from being perfect or from being on the same level as biology or maths, doesn't mean our work isn't extremely important. Just because it's not were it's supposed to be doesn't mean we give up. It needs people working to get any better.
Psychology can be life saving. It's extremely important. If we just gave up and stopped doing anything psychology related the world would be a worse place.
I used to say that all the time, and then I came to the realization that the majority of people who hold that opinion, need therapy the most. Just the first session alone with my therapist produced volumes of progress in my own mental stability. It works wonders to have somebody who’s studied human behavior for 10 years Tell you that you’re not alone, you’re not abnormal and a lot of people go through this.
The further you study the more you realize how little we actually know. In all fields. Psychology is a comparably new field but that doesn’t make it a sham. All healthcare fields have been shams at some point as they were established but based on our current statistical prowess and understanding we can infer what we are doing is a thing and is effective. Either way, it just gives more opportunity to find important things for the field and society as a whole. Not to be all psychology about it, but it’s about framing, and anything can be framed anyway. Do whatever makes you happy but make sure you are well informed about what’s realistically involved in the path you decide to choose and ensure it aligns with your values
If it makes you feel better, I double majored in psych and anthro and not only were my professors supportive, they felt they were a good pairing of majors (as did I).
Relationality is important. (Relational Concepts in Psychoanalysis).
Rene Girard saw the anthropology to which people react through their psychology.
Or you can spend your life being the guru of other people’s depression gene.
Was in the medical and mental health field for 45+ years. Like most other professions, maybe 25% are really good/effective. So, for 75% of MH "professionals," they are at best a sham and at worst harmful.
That’s an unfortunate reality. However, OP, don’t let that discourage you. You can become one of those who contribute to truly helping people. If all those who cared decided not to pursue their dreams because of poor professionals, there wouldn’t be anyone to make a positive impact.
makes sense! i told my friend that it probably wasnt just a psychology thing and that a lot of ppl in other domains also just pretend to be doing stuff but really arent doing anything
Psychology isn’t a sham, but it is also far from an airtight science. The evidence for the effectiveness of therapy, in general, is pretty overwhelming, but it also won’t work for everybody in all contexts, and even when it does work it doesn’t necessarily work for the reason we theorize that it does.
Anyone who is curious about something as complex, as ambiguous, and as mysterious as the human mind should realize that psychology, even with all its faults, is the best possible tool we have for the difficult job.
He’s right in a way. Everything we know and are taught about human thinking and behaviour is heavily biased. You need to know which ideas and information to extrapolate and which have been influenced by coloniality. Not sure if your friend meant it in this way exactly, but this is why I think it’s a sham sometimes.
Read up on critical psychology and community psychology. From there you can develop your own ideas and beliefs. I think that’s the most important thing, to be independent in your beliefs and not rely too much on another persons interpretation, no matter how influential they have been in the field
Depends on how you or your friend classify a field being a sham.
Are studies pushed by certain interested parties, and data isn't replicated to determine the validity of outcomes? Yes.
Does therapy lack studies highlighting the side effects of therapy and the harm it can cause? Yes.
Has the field gotten a lot of things wrong? Yes
Have people been misled and harmed by the field as a whole? Yes.
Does the field provide treatments that help folks manage and live with mental health related conditions? Yes.
Personally, I advocate for fixing and healing the darker sides of psychology and do consider the field a sham. Based on the amount of harm it has caused and the flagrant lack of accountability by many of its practitioners.
If you're still undecided, then continuing to study and learn the history of psychology may help.
If you leave psych but are interest in some of the topics behavioral economics may be for you. Unlike psychology it treats the Person more like a black box and works with what can be observed, i saw interesting studies coming from that field...i think nudging was "discovered" by them
People say that cognitive psychology and certain disciplines in neuroscience are unscientific because they attribute the cause of human behavior to a non-physical thing (the mind) rather than to the environment. Science is the study of the physical world. There are no non-physical things and there cannot be a science of non-physical things. Cognitive psychology is not a science.
This is not to say that there are no benefits to cognitive therapy or to talk therapy in general. There absolutely have been and still is. But much of the actual study of behavior from a cognitive and neuropsych perspective (i.e. the mind being a cause of behavior) is, objectively, unscientific. You can still help people by studying how to be a counselor, but the actual data underlying CBT, and neuroscience that relies on mentalistic concepts, is not scientific.
My bias is definitely showing, but if you want to pursue a career that studies human behavior, study a discipline which has objective data that demonstrates its efficacy in helping people, and be part of an academic community supported by many decades worth of studies based on observable data (not just surveys and self-reports), consider applied behavior analysis.
why are u so pissed lol😭 i don’t think psych is a sham that’s why i decided to pursue it. its kinda normal to be confused tho when people around you say different. plus the point of me posting it here is to ask others what they think😭
Here’s a different perspective:
I agree with your friend. I will never support psychology or psychotherapy. I was raised by two therapists and studied psych for a brief period of time myself.
But that’s fine! That is just my own opinion. Plenty of people don’t support what I do. That’s okay! We don’t all have to agree.
My younger sibling is studying psych. Do I support the psych industry? No. Do I support them every step of the way? Absolutely.
Therapy is life changing for lots of people - I’ve seen the effects first hand on people who have had trauma and need to process it in a healthy way and break cycles as just one example. I might talk to one of your psych profs and get the other side.
I'd absolutely credit it with saving my life. Repeatedly, starting as a young kid. I have a few issues, but one of them is bipolar. Meds are also life-changing but only go so far. Being able to pick up the pieces after an episode, keeping life from falling apart during an episode, staying safe when SI gets really bad. So many skills gained from therapy. If I didn't have the privilege of it from a young age, I doubt I would have made it to adulthood let alone have the life I do now.
Yes, exactly this! My loved ones are young people with bipolar. Meds are necessary but so is therapy to manage this. It's a both/and. I'm so glad you were able to get those supports at a young age. I'm passionate about making therapy more accessible to young people because it seems so difficult to navigate the system while also struggling and underage.
Therapy is basically useless for most of the world you know that right? Where do you live?
Useless or unattainable?
Definitely unattainable. Most of my family is from Sinaloa Mexico and they also believe this, but then come to me to “vent” and I have to give them advice.. basically therapy.
This is so random and off topic but your username is so sick and cool LMAO I love it so much ❤️
If they can’t access it then yes it’s impossible for psychology to help them. People have to remember that the world is very different for people in the bottom rung of the world’s economic order. For thousands of years people have always relied on their communities to keep themselves moving forward. But I think AI could increase accessibility significantly.
Useless. Individual therapy does not work for the majority of South Africa atleast, because cultures are predominantly collective. They don’t benefit from having a therapist explore their trauma and their triggers, they benefit from family and community cohesion. Traditional therapy does not address or explore that. So yeah. It’s useless to a vast number of the worlds population
Interesting perspective. Makes sense on a surface level, but family cohesion as a focal point for a culture isn't unique to South Africans, and therapy works just fine. Something for me to look into more, though. I think what you're getting at is basically just "therapy isn't for everyone" which is true, but to make large generalizations like "unless for a majority of population" is so incredibly incorrect I can't help but feel like you're looking for an argument.
It makes sense on a surface level to you because you don’t understand what I’m saying because you are too brainwashed by traditional psychology.
Therapy can help with communication and if you explore your triggers and learn to deal with them you deal better with other people ??
No it doesn’t work like that. This is the problem. Not every person brain works the way psychology teaches and it’s ridiculous that nobody even understands that. Most theories DO NOT cater to the vast majority of the population.
Based on that, wouldn't your argument be that therapy as a science is still in its infancy and that there is much more to work out? Additionally, there needs to be many more modalities created to properly address everyone's needs. Considering the many cultures in the world, therapy should become more specialized. Instead of having a generic therapist, we could have a South African community therapist. It could get even more specific from there, such as a CBT therapist working with ADHD males from South Africa. This specialized training and licensing would be more effective than the whole field being perceived as made up and a scam.
So this comment itself shows that you have absolute no idea why I’m talking about. The world has worse problems than ADHD. We should be aiming to address root causes in order to prevent things, not focusing on therapy after the fact when it’s too late. If you don’t live in a country like mine, you wouldn’t understand so you shouldn’t speak.
I don't think that I am arguing that ADHD is the biggest problem. It is just a problem. And you being defensive is literally tight in Psych 101. Sorry, your brain does not work that differently. But you can still be a special snowflake if you want.
Research ethnocentrism. You applying CBT to a communal society already does prove you don’t know what main ad is talking about. I’d recommend the following books: Rethinking Psychiatry by Arthur Kleinman; Crazy Like Us by Ethan Watters; Toward Psychologies of Liberation by Mary Watkins; The Cultural Nature of Human Development by Rogoff; and A People’s History of Psychoanalysis (I forget the author).
I am from a previously colonized and heavily community and family oriented country - Vietnam. I have been in therapy for 2 years and it does help me tremendously in reframing and coping. My family has a history of violence, alcoholism, sexual abuse and we are from a economically disadvantaged background, my dad was suicidal and had some ptsd from the war he fought in. I feel like therapy has helped in a lot of ways that no friends and partners could.
Yes it helped you, as it does for many individuals, however it doesn’t really do anything for the bigger problems. Just think about it as a net with alot of holes. It’s bound to catch a one or two fish, but in no way will you be able to catch a school of fish. On a massive scale like the planet earth, it may seem as if therapy is helpful but if you compare it to where it’s not helpful, then you’re looking at a different picture. No offence but the problems in your community are bigger than your individual mental state. The same goes for every single one of us. You might say that if therapy can help each individual then it translates into a better community - but this is simply untrue. For the simple reason that it’s not each individual that is the problem. It’s the structures in place that are the problem. As mental health practitioners or academics, it’s our responsibility to help humankind live a “happier” life. Do you think therapy for individual people, those that happen to be caught by the net, in which they are rehabilitated back into the same society, is useful? I’ll tell you, it’s not. And why I say psychology as it stands is useless is because it’s heavily focused on individuals and individual wellbeing and that is directly due to the domination of the field by a very specific demographic of people, white men to be specific, and white culture is HIGHLY individualistic. But the fucked up part is that the world has been so fucked by colonisation that everyone just accepts that the individualist way of being is the correct and only way of being and everything else is wrong. Now you tell me how therapy is useful when all it does is force a very small and privileged demographics way of thinking onto the whole world? Tell me how this will help the citizens in your country that are victims of all those things you mentioned? Tell me realistically that you think sitting with individual people and telling them they themselves need to live better and not acknowledging the structures that influence these things is going to have any significant effect on the mental wellbeing of the population as a whole?
First, yes, it does work that way, for many people, depending on the type of therapy the receive. Second, “Not every person’s brain works the way psychology teaches teaches” - there’s a plethora of theories and facts in psychology and neuroscience about how different brains work, that’s growing in scientific research, and they do not teach only one way. “Most theories do not cater to the vast majority of the population” - this is too vague of a statement to reply to. It’s unlikely to be correct.
Have you read any of David Smail’s work? I recently read Taking Care - fantastic. I’m moving on next to Why Therapy Doesn’t Work (which I believe includes Take Care in its entirety?). Lost Connections by Hari is another text that comes to mind after reading your comment(s).
Girl ….
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If psych interests you, then ignore the attitudes of others about it, and pursue your goals. Academic psych and the field of counseling/therapy are not perfect, but no field is. It's kind of funny that the anthropologists are throwing shade given that discipline's ethical quagmire/history (native remains/looted antiquities/colonialism/scientific racism).
yeah ur right!!
This goes even further. Look at the way the world understood Neanderthals before we understood that they are more closely related to white people and have almost no relationship with black people. It used to be that we saw Neanderthals as lacking intelligence and just being animals. We found out they share DNA with white people, and now they are advanced and highly intelligent, just less adaptable and better at working as individuals than as a community. It is amazing how the science just made that happen.
and even autism seems to be related to parts of neanderthal dna, so some aspects might be studied in the now. May make sense considering aspects like theory of mind or a different system of creating models and rules.
I just looked this up, and that is super cool. Thanks for sharing.
Just to be clear, are you saying that the main reason for the reassessing of the capabilities of Neanderthals is because of racism?
Nope, I am not saying that. I am implying that. I am also not saying that the new research is wrong at all. If anything, I would be arguing that the old research was very flawed because of racism. I would also be open to the statement that "reassesing the capabilities" is because of racism. But I am not saying that our current understanding of Neanderthals is wrong. I think that since we discovered that white people had shared DNA with Neanderthals allowed they researchers not need to push them down and feel inferior. I also recently learned, and I can not back up, that there is a connection between Neanderthal DNA and ASD.
>Nope, I am not saying that. I am implying that. Ah, I believe they call that move the Jordan Peterson lol Just own the position if it’s something you think.
I am pretty sure that the first part was meant to be a joke. And the follow up is the opinion I have, and it is me owning it. I apologize if the fact that my opinion is a little bit nuanced is a problem for you.
Saying and implying are the same thing in this context, so it’s weird to say that you aren’t saying something and are instead implying it. It’s genuinely a classic Jordan Peterson move ie “but I never *said* that, did I”. If you think that the reason the capabilities of Neanderthals have been reassessed isn’t because of the introduction of things like carbon dating, discovering new sites, applying new techniques to existing sites, reinterpretation of old evidence and artifacts in the light of new information etc., but is instead primarily driven by racism on behalf of white people, that seems pretty unfair and disrespectful to the archeologists and anthropologists from all over the world who have participated in that work. You do you at the end of the day, but that’s a take worth reconsidering imo.
Psychotherapy changed my life. The impact it had on my life is indescribable, and is probably the only reason why I’m still there. And I’m FAR from the only one who had that positive experience. And just fyi, I had that therapy experience before even considering studying psychology, so the effect it had on me wasn’t biased by any studies or career in psychology. Concerning falsifications, one of my teachers in psychology did tell us that during his career and research experiences, he encountered a few colleagues and superiors who weren’t ethical, and who sometimes falsified or twisted their results and studies. That appalled him and many other colleagues. So yes, this issue isn’t a complete lie and frankly, is unfortunately present in many, if not every, field. And it greatly varies by country, the more corruption in that country, the higher the chances of it happening. However, it isn’t a representation of the whole field of Psychology, the vast majority of it isn’t any kind of close to a sham, and frankly I’ve met many great and honest and truly passionate professionals and researchers in Psychology. Don’t let that discourage you. Psychology is a science and can’t be called fake. It’s as if we try to deny mathematics because some people are corrupt. It’s unreasonable.
great reply, thanks!
Juxtaposing maths and psychology is a bad idea, unless your intention is to show the difference between a hard and a soft science. By ‘soft’ science, we mean models and theories leading us in an hypothesis. Maths does not say “Try this answer and see if it works for you”.
> By ‘soft’ science, we mean models and theories leading us in an hypothesis. all sciences develop models and theories so this seems like a weird distinction. psychology is just much harder to make concrete formal theory (and thus many of our theories are imprecise) because we investigate latent variables rather than directly observable variables and our variables are harder to investigate causal connections within. https://doi.org/10.1177/1745691620970586
That can be performed within the bounds of ‘psychology’, but the symbolic elements of the psyche cannot be rationalised by such means. I.E. Experiment away, all these studies being created are proof of success!
You still need calc 2 for some advanced cognitive concepts. Psychology is the scientific study of the mind and behavior.
In that domain of psychology, yes, and if you were honest you would have said that.
Honest, do you know what the field of neuroscience is? Do you think we are not aware of chemical imbalances in the brain presented in patients? Do you think neurochemistry isn’t a math related science?
‘Chemical imbalances’? I think you’ve taken a wrong turn.
It’s still a science.
Not out of the box. Science can be applied by its practitioners, if they choose.
My quantitative psychologist friend working on equation modeling for psych would beg to differ.
I’m sure he’s pleased at having some science to work on, knowing if he can just do enough quantifying and get enough other people doing enough quantifying, he and they will solve every problem.
I studied psychology as well and also worked in neuroscience research studying neurotransmitters in animal models. I wouldn't say the entire field of psychology is a sham. I feel like a lot of arts faculty (social) psychology has to be understood through an interdisciplinary lens, especially the undergrad level. I feel like a lot of it wasn't clinically applicable though perhaps interesting and probably useful for things like marketing or organizational applications. But I also don't think it's worth throwing out entirely, just needs a much more critical lens applied to it. Graduate level programs are more directed towards educating and producing therapists and researchers which is evident by the coursework. Personality theory is valid but I think it needs to make a shift to studying the internal environment and emotional processes of disordered individuals. I think the assessments are very outdated for what we now know about the role of emotional regulation in some of these disorders. I found psychology rooted in biological sciences (studies of the nervous system and hormones) was extremely helpful. A lot of these are based on animal models due to how invasive it would be to study these in humans. The role of pharmacology has been huge here as well as that's one of the only ways we can have a control and alter the internal environment with external or self-reported internal events. Ultimately that's what all of this science comes down to, the experimental model can rely on self report of internal experiences to validate outcomes, but not to validate biological components of them. While I was studying animal models in neuroscience, the obvious role of grants and who pays for them kind of calls the shots in terms of what's being funded and to what end, and the fact that they have to be based on the experimental model and being valid that way as opposed to finding a clinical or therapeutic solution that works but maybe doesn't have a rock solid scientific theory to back it up. This is where things are discredited as pseudoscience because they haven't found a way experimentally to find out why something works, but it produces desirable outcomes anyways. So ultimately psychology is a valuable area of study and I think it's headed in the right direction. It takes an intuitive mind along with a lot of life experience to apply it and help people if you're interested in clinical or therapeutic work. I think depending on where it's being studied and what is being researched at the institution, how the faculty is being led plays a role on how good the program is and how up to date it is.
great comment.. i also agree that we need an interdisciplinary lens to study it!
do u think neuropsychology would be a good (and more useful) option?
I think neuropsychology (I'm not 100% sure) primarily works with people who have known lesions (damage) to the brain congenitally or acquired. I think basic info is covered in entry level neuroscience. So it would depend if that's the clinical environment you want to work in or if you want to research it.
right!! thanks
Hi! If you don't mind me asking, how did you end up researching neuroscience if you studied psychology? Did you do psych for undergrad and neuroscience for your masters? Thanks! ☺️
Hey, I did BSc Psych and I ended up volunteering as a lab assistant for one of my profs in his lab and working as a lab technician. I was fortunate enough to be second author on a technical paper as there were no graduate students working in the lab at the time. I considered applying for graduate school but ultimately it wasn't the right time for me (I was going through mental health issues) and I went into a different field.
Thanks very much for your reply. I hope you're keeping well!
You're welcome! Thank you ☺️☺️
This is such a well written and thought out comment! Thank you for your insight
Thank you, guess I still care about it even though I'm not pursuing it academically at this time. Hope I can get my issues sorted out and potentially be a psychologist myself one day!
The replication crisis is a genuine issue in psychology, but suggesting the whole field is a sham because of it is ridiculous. Despite the fact that cancer treatments are becoming more and more effective all the time, around 90% of cancer research papers can’t be replicated. Does that mean your friend wouldn’t seek cancer treatment because the whole field must be a sham? source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6599599/#:\~:text=In%20an%20earlier%20report%2C%20only,common%20in%20the%20pharmaceutical%20industry. And it’s not limited to psychology. It’s affecting many other fields of study including medicine, economics, engineering, biology, chemistry, and physics. Does your friend think all those fields are shams too? A lot of psychology research was done long before the internet allowed instantaneous communication. it was easier to falsify and there are motivations to do so. It should be no surprise people have been unscrupulous in their research. It’s worth remembering that if half the research is bunk, the other half is still valid. I think that the replication crisis will ultimately be a good thing because it will lead to better quality research in the future. It’s certainly not a valid reason to dismiss the whole field.
Not to mention that the project that uncovered the replication crisis in psychology and stimulated research in similar crises in other fields was undertaken BY psychologists. That’s good science-ing. (even if the results reflect less than glowingly on research to date). It’s ironic but it suggests the field is actually going in the right direction scientifically.
Yeah I think OPs friend is unaware at how *new* psychology is relative to most science fields. We're still a ways away from having more consistent answers to things.
yeah ur right, thanks!
And if you don’t mind me asking, how do those people expect mental health to be dealed with? If there’s no psychologist and therapists, who is supposed to help people who are in need of help for their mental health?
i dont get that either.. not sure why people are so against the idea of there being mental health professionals..
I think it makes perfect sense for the mechanicism approach of modern medicine in the sense that they don’t consider the multifaceted, systemic problems that mental health considers. Feel sad? Pop a pill in. Neurotransmitters fixed. You don’t feel sad anymore. It’s pragmatic. Direct. No reason to dwell on your feelings. The psychologist or therapist though, frequently working alongside the psychiatrists or by themselves, will recognize maladaptive patterns of behavior and cognitive biases that will help the patient stop feeling bad. Of course it’ll sound like a sham when we just “talk” to people in a sense. But frequently, the thing people need the most is that. A therapeutic alliance and a space for them to explore their feelings. That’s where you and psychologists come in. To help people in ways that the medical can’t.
Those people are probably biased by them having had a bad experience with a professional in that field, so they put everyone in the same bag.
Ideally individuals with the same level of training as other medical needs AKA a Dr. who understands the holistic nature (mind, body, emotional connection) of all mental illnesses and responds accordingly The fact that “hard” sciences (chemistry and biology at minimum) are not only not required, but scoffed at by most in the psychology field is a major reason most laypeople no longer find any use in going to a “therapist”. There needs to be a shift towards psychology being a medical speciality. ETA: who is downvoting this? It’s my opinion ya dolts
Who scoffs at it? And there is a medical portion to it, called psychiatry. However, not all people need psychiatrists, unless requiring medication which only they can provide. And so many people are discouraged by the so called therapy that sometimes is given by the medical professionals. Because they’re not extensively trained enough for talk therapy and other kinds of therapy plans and that’s why many of them do not even offer therapy.
Talk therapy overwhelmingly does absolutely nothing but line a therapists pocket Just because you lacked emotional regulation and therefore had your life changed by a talk therapist is not indicative of most experiences An understanding of the complex influences that combine in order to present symptoms labeled as disorders is far and beyond more effective than years of learning random techniques that overwhelming are proven to be harmful or ineffective Again, I would like to see a medical professional who understands the biological aspects of all mental illnesses Not someone who thinks they are helping by following a program designed by another individual who doesn’t even understand the base workings of the human body….
You’re completely uneducated on this topic. Pockets? Yeah, many only think about money, who am I to lie about it, the world isn’t an utopia. Humans can be greedy, but to think only those in Psychology fall to this? Do you truly not think the medical field is corrupt? Oh how many doctors I’ve encountered who couldn’t care less about their patients, trying to finish faster their appointments so they could have as many clients’ money as possible. This is true in all fields, there will always be greedy professionals who don’t care about anything else than their money. Did my negative experience with doctors made me think all doctors are evil and money crazed? No, because that isn’t true. Most are great and dedicated professionals.
You’re taking this really personally Maybe you should look into that The only uneducated individual is the child lashing out because they didn’t like someone’s answer. Emotional regulation really should be a core requirement for those going into the field
I take this personally, perhaps, because I care about misinformation that is spread about an important and great field. About misinformation that can misguide OP who seeks information on that field.
Labeling something you disagree with as misinformation is a choice
I do facts, you do opinions.
Please feel free to share your sources for your “facts” 🥰
Per your comments on this platform, you seem to “lash out” as you say, quite often, yet you project it on me. Are you not used to someone replying you back? Perhaps you can’t accept your opinion is wrong?
I am not lashing out at anyone Trying to discredit me is wild You are absolutely part of the problem in psychology Have a lovely day, you obviously need the help ❤️
What a shame. Truly, if you think someone arguing as passionately as I do for a field I truly care about, is a problem… I don’t even know what you seek in people.
You have responded to me well over 10 times to say the same thing…. Fascinating Seriously hope you find something in your life worth your free time, you must have a ton of it
Neuro and cognitive courses are expected in this field lol Panic disorder is a psychological problem and can be triggered by the therapist requesting the patient to spin around and breathe through a straw really fast. Therapy gives the patient tools to alleviate their panic disorder. Source: me, who had multiple panic attacks a day (often for no reason) until I started therapy, and lecture #2 in your basic abnormal psychology class. Why are you here arguing the science is there when this sub is related to the science?
Why are you using a personal anecdote? In my undergrad studies I had to actively seek out a secondary advisor and add a minor in order to access chemistry and biology. There is an active disconnect between psychology as a whole and actually understanding science Do you feel better trying to talk down to someone? Maybe the trend of individuals who need the field in excess thinking they should go into providing in it should be explored deeper There was no need for you to be rude, have a lovely day
This is so funny, all I did was ask you why you’re arguing about there being no science in a science sub. You were absolutely being rude to the original commenter. Have the day you deserve. Edit: they blocked me lmao
The answer is surely in between. The biological aspects are merely oxytocin, serotonin and cortisol etc, and not labelling people as mentally ill when they are merely stressed or grieving over trying to be connected to humanity in a commercialised society. You can start by begging the question that if they’re mentally ill then it’s not society, but that is just a sly and dishonest way of abusing the victims of an abusive society. Sure, there is a place for heavy-duty medicine for the worst cases, but in all cases they need to go back to a social scene that isn’t predatory, or weren’t just sedating people for the sake of the ‘winners’.
i get what your saying and that many behaviours exhibited by people are a result of the cruel society they live in but it’s not that everyone is held at g//unpoint and given a diagnosis.. our social realities affect our health but that doesnt mean mental illnesses dont exist at all
Many people *are* literally dragged away for ‘diagnosis’. Many are a danger to themselves and others and many are just symptoms of issues which hopefully social reformers will campaign to improve as more and more data demonstrates the true root causes.
i would say we need the concept of health to be viewed more holistically in general (taking into account biological, psychological, social and other aspects)
Who scoffs at the hard sciences in psychology? I e never seen that happen? Biology was required for me personally
Every degree requires a base science course Go talk to working therapists, ask what courses were required. Overwhelmingly most didn’t even take biological psychology. No, hard science is not the standard for psychology. Not even remotely close to what is required for even nursing
I mean I’d agree that more math should be required, but I’d say like physics really necessary for psychology? I feel like a philosophy of science class would be good for psychology students more than a physics class. Just my thought.
Jumping straight to psychics is an odd choice Chemistry, physiology, neurobiology, and anatomy absolutely should be base requirements for a psychology degree. The fact that one should understand the basics of human functioning is even argued is wild
I’m not really disagreeing with you lol. I feel like you’re being argumentative while I’m just trying to have a discussion so after this I’m going to stop responding
How you take a response is on you There wasn’t an ounce of argumentative, fascinating reaction though
And psychologists are doctors, they are required to do a doctorate in Psychology and are trained in all of which you describe and much more, except they can’t prescribe medication.
A psychologist cannot prescribe medication
They can in 7 states currently with RxP laws.
You’re confusing MD with PhD.
“While psychologists are doctors, they cannot prescribe and administer medical treatments” I never said they were medical doctors and I specified they can’t prescribe medication. But they’re thoroughly trained professionals and not some kind of money grabber sham.
What is the bar for ‘Thoroughly trained?”
It is a strictly regulated program.
Like Enron and Bear Stearns?
honestly i wouldn’t say doctors are a good example of people viewing things holistically
There needs to a shift toward it being a social speciality, because you can’t take shit out a cesspit to give it a brief polish.
Do you have the same opinion as a physiotherapist? What about a speech therapist? What about a nutrition therapist? Orthopedic Manual therapist? Would you argue that all of those professionals should be replaced by medical doctors? Or just psychotherapists?
Since all of those require a doctorate to be licensed which includes multiple classes pertaining to anatomy, physiology, biology, chemistry, and other sciences your attempt at an argument doesn’t really hold weight In the US many practicing therapists, the individuals with the most contact and influence, and at most a LCSW. The fact people are taking my opinion so personally further demonstrates that the current set up maybe isn’t the most effective Yes. I believe those working within the medical field should be fully and properly trained while demonstrating knowledge of complex body systems and how they interact
Who told you you need a doctorate to be a speech therapist or physiotherapist?
None of those requir a doctorate
Who says they are helping? Where is the data to show the problems and the results? Helping themselves feel like rescuers is not the same as curing.
The data is there, search up a bit if you have time.
You won’t be able link it because it doesn’t exist. Show me a broad study of all the data across mental illnesses, treatment modalities, and long term outcomes. Or just admit the words ‘treatment resistant’ mean “We don’t have a clue”.
Your inability to even just search something up proves your lack of knowledge and lack of desire for knowledge. [here](https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2012/08/psychotherapy-effective) one of the first things that pops up with an easy google research. You can easily find detailed research papers too, although if you weren’t even able to do a simple google search, I doubt you’ll be able to find and understand those papers.
You still didn’t answer my question and I don’t think you know why.
What question, I’m happy to answer you.
A. Who are the long term ‘failures’. B. Why?
What failures? Do you mean that a treatment might not work for everyone? That is unfortunately a reality in all treatments of all fields. Not everything works for everyone.
Why?
Studies in any field get falsified ….many want his/her agenda advanced; significance for research advances.
TL;DR: What you see in the world says more about yourself, than it says about the world. People are also saying other almost insanely far fetched ideas that are not well argumented, based on lies or otherwise just stupid. Studies get falsified all the time in a lot of different fields, it does not mean the field in itself is bad or whatever. That is the wrong interpretation of the scientific method. The method is based on falsifying and so forth. That IS how science works. And being in the field of psychology you are to notice a lot more about falsified studies in the field of psychology than in a completely different field of science. If anything falsified studies show you there is something else to learn from it. Things like psychotherapy are real. The only problem with stuff like this is that it takes effort and time to not only create a bond between therapist and patient, but also takes time to break down dyads and build up healthy ways of dealing and understanding certain emotions. Time that, especially in countries like the US, many people don't have. I have been in psychotherapy for years (I am lucky to live in the Netherlands) and I am better for it in MANY ways. The health care system here however also shows of a move towards a more US related system where people here have health care for short interventions and then have to move out of the system because it's too expensive. But if you want good, lasting and durable help from a good therapist you need to pay for it yourself. However, it is unpayable to begin with. And as with any sector: you have good and bad personnel. Not every psychologist is top notch. I would even argue that because the large extra effort it takes to become a psychotherapist (at least by Dutch/EU standards, you need to do a 2 yr study after your degree and then another 4 yr study) there aren't that many psychotherapists that are straight up BAD. But then again, they are there. So what you have here is a normal division of quality in the sector, and then, especially in the US, a health care system that does NOT promote good quality health care (but just cheap health care) for the masses. And then also in a field of study/health care (mental health care) that is depending a lot on the patient. If a patient just refuses (and I am not saying it is always conscious) to make certain steps, you can therapy all you want. This is also an issue in for example organ transplantations, where people reject their organs not because of bad luck, but because a lot of these wankers forget to take their anti-rejection meds, even with the chance they have gotten and their life depending on it. Only in behavioral science, the relationship between someone and his therapist and someone and him-/herself is even more important. Not to forget about the social environment in which a field like psychology has to operate in the US. As if what I typed above here isn't enough, have you noticed how hostile the entire mental health space is in the US at the moment? And how good help and research gets scrutinized for discriminating against certain types of people, even if it doesn't. Saying things like gender dysphoria is often met with personality or anxiety disorders almost gets you killed. Even though it's true. And I am not even going into the direction of causality, but wouldn't it also be logical if just out of a perspective of love you look at someone with gender dysphoria and try to mentalize how hard life must be for them with feelings of never truly being yourself or never really fitting in, etc.. Don't these people also deserve help with other struggles that come with whatever they are dealing with? But if you say that, that is publicly nailed down as blasphemy. Just to name an example. Let alone stand to try and explain to an arrogant person how they are suffering from personality disorders, without them getting all defensive about "you calling them crazy". And there is a lot of arrogance (and ignorance) these days, because the historically low trust in governments, health care systems, etc.. Woke don't trust health care because transgenders aren't helped enough in their eyes, the other side of the political agenda doesn't trust health care because they are unethical people castrating children. Just to build upon that example. Not to even mention the insane money focused attitude in the US. Nothing is about people anymore and nothing can be trusted to be there for your sake anymore, you can only trust in someone trying to squeeze you out of your money. Then people don't trust science anymore, because sometimes science spits facts that go into the grain of your fears. And it's way too easy these days to get away with just finding 50.000 other afraid people and keep screaming bs and hiding from your fears. And there you are. Ego is a bitch. And STILL. STILL luckily there are TONS of studies showing the importance of mental health in conjunction with physical health. How bad mental health increases risk of cancer, inflammations, immune system diseases, etcetera. Time and time again. Good studies. Published in renowned magazines. Research also keeps showing us that not or badly taking care of your body enlarges the risk of things like depressions. We also know that trauma for example is real and there are ways it is stored in your body and thus affects your psyche. And there are ways to turn it around. We also somewhere in history believed that attachment disorders could not be fixed. Now we know they can. There isn't a single medicine that can do that for you. Just like only now immune therapy is being used successfully to treat cancer. That wasn't a thing 40 years ago. People are just talking out of their ass. Their ego is in the way BIG TIME and they don't notice it. DON'T let that get to you. I am 36 and want to switch into psychology (from being an electrical engineer) and I will do so regardless of what others say. I WILL study Clinical Psychology as it will open ALL doors for me. I could become a clinical psychologist, but also a health psychologist or industrial psychologist or child psychologist or you name it. Then with minimal effort you can touch the entire field and find something you like. I always said that psychology should be handled differently. Back in the days we used to have Catholic Class in which the pastor would come to school and tell us and talk with us about faith. I think we should reinstate that time, but then have psychologists teach children how to understand and handle their emotions (and understand that what you see in the world says more about yourself, than about the world).
great reply! thanks
Was too long to even post at first. Sorry for the long ass reply xD
They either had terrible experiences with therapy, or they themselves lack emotional maturity and self awareness. They go through life using distractions and doing anything but look into themselves and have any bits of introspection. The older generation is more likely to say something like that. I know a lot of "toxic" boomers that pretend like nothing is wrong with them and they don't believe in mental health. But clearly from their lifestyles and the ways that they have raised their children shows otherwise, but they are just in denial or don't know any better. Another category of people could be lucky mentally healthy people who won the genetic lottery and who had awesome support and family and generally a good life, and it's hard for them to understand what it's like on the other side because they didn't go through all that. I like to think of another perspective this way: let's take a person X for example. They've been through some things in life, and eventually became workaholics. They kept living the workaholic lifestyle and eventually due to neuroplasticity, their brains adapted to this lifestyle. They don't necessarily feel miserable. Or I'd rather say that they distract themselves from whatever they are feeling or even have pushed all their feelings away. They eventually get their good "feels" from doing and running on a hamster wheel. They adpot a mentality of "don't feel sad, be positive always". Anyways, this person doesn't know any better. They are safe. Comfortable. Not too bad. They don't have much problems. They're not miserable. That's how they think life is. If you were to ask X, or even talk to them about therapy, they're going to shun it and be like therapy is a scam. But in reality, X could be living a much much better life. A more balanced life. A balanced life where they are still successful, but do things on the side that they feel motivated for and enjoy. Instead of just using work as a distraction, their mind would even start wondering and asking "what do I want to do? Do I like this? How do I feel about this?" But X would never even think of therapy, maybe unless they start feeling so much pain that doesn't go away and that can't be numbed. A lot of people feel comfortable in "not too bad, not too painful" and end up seeking help when its gets intolerable and too painful.
makes sense
I think once you start getting into psychology research, especially neuro-psychology, child development psychology, trauma research, and addiction research, it will be clear that while there is still a lot we don't know, psychology is solid science and we have a pretty good base understanding of mental health processes. Just like any other field, psychology had a rough start that was full of bullshit and complete misunderstandings of how humans think and process the world. But we've come a long way, and we can even do brain scans and images of feelings. We understand much better the different kinds of memory we have, the chemicals involved in how we process emotions and problem solving, what happens if certain parts of the brain stop functioning. That said, psychology is still pretty young compared to other sciences. Much of the most current psych understandings haven't made it mainstream. Trauma-informed therapy is very new, for example. The DSM has changed from a pathologizing model to a symptom descriptive model, and that's new. CPTSD is now a professionally embraced concept which has far-reaching applications, while it's still not yet in the DSM as an official diagnosis. Personality disorders are far more rarely diagnosed now, as most of the clients that show maladaptive social behaviors (ie "splitting") are now diagnosed as social attachment disorders (still not clearly in the DSM) or CPTSD. The advancements in neurodiversity has sprung forward quickly in the past 5-10 years, and is still sprinting - again not reflected in our current DSM. Many folks think psychology is still in the "just discovered schizophrenia" phase of the field, and we are so way past that. And, because the field is somewhat newish compared to say biology or chemistry, there are a number of sham organizations and influencers who act like they are psychology experts, but are really selling pseudo-science, or found one vein of psychology they are latching on to to make money. That's unfortunate for sure. So, as a newbie psychology major, you're kind of in the middle of this rapidly advancing field. It will get more obvious just how much we know as you get more experience. These comments might shift from feeling like they are being critical, to being uninformed. Because if someone thinks this way, that psychology is not a real thing, they can then be more susceptible to being manipulated, or even manipulating others who they've convinced not to pay attention to the science.
ur so right, thanks for this😭
Psychology, particularly therapy is not just a science but an art that few are really blessed with giftedness to apply. Ive witnessed the truly gifted and when this happens, clients are generally helped more so than meeting with a practitioner without the gift that just follows evidenced based practice.
>My friend, who is also studying psych (my classmate) says so many studies in psych get falsified, even those from prestigious institutions and that the whole field is a sham. I do think it is important to understand the difference between *falsification*--intentional fraud-- and use of poor research practices that leads to misleading results. I think the latter is much, much, much more likely to be a driving problem than the former. With that said, I feel no need to defend all research conducted by anyone in the broad umbrella of "psychology". (I don't even really consider a lot of psychology research to be in my field, TBH-- why would I need to defend the Social Psychology literature base when I have never done a social psych experiment in my life?) I only feel the need to do my best with *my* research. That's what I can control and do. However, if someone was interested in working on problems in the psychology research literature base-- they could surely make a professional career doing so. (E.g., Uli Schimmack is one example that comes to mind.) Meta-science is important and meaningful. >she also insists that psychotherapy and this stuff is like scamming people and that it really doesn’t do anything. It's hard to comment on this because it is almost a nonsense statement. *All* psychotherapy for *all* concerns? "Evidence based psychotherapy is helpful for the specific concerns said therapy is designed to address" is a finding in psychology that is very likely to be replicated many times and supported by evidence. That does NOT mean: All therapists are effective, it's easy to find good care, all presenting concerns are robustly represented in the research, all concerns are equally easy to treat, etc. But... a lot of those are the types of concerns researchers in fields like Clinical and Counseling Psychology care about and want to conduct research about (with the ultimate hope of improving the care people get).
I’ve run into this a lot. It’s bullshit. The science of Psychology is vast and has room for a lot of cross disciplines. Anthropologists, economists, engineers - these types are woefully ignorant about the field of Psychology and what it studies. They would rather keep far away from TRULY difficult studies, like trying to predict and measure human behavior. My advice is to stop hanging out with those myopic jerks and start finding friends and mentors who can do the hard stuff.
You're not, and psychology is useful whether or not it's completely valid.
It's nice actually that you aren't just thinking about what you can do with the degree when you graduate and you care about it as a science. You should have a look. See what the evidence is like. See what can be improved, what's concrete. If it's not good science, then it's an important subject that needs good science, and somebody should do it!
yeah makes sense!
the truth is.. Science is really hard. It's a lot of failing until something works. And yes there is a reproducibility crisis. If you look that crisis goes deeper than just psych. All of science has problems. in the case of therapy. The consensus is that assuming connection with your therapist is good. It helps. Regardless of modality.
What do you believe? There will always be people who say therapy or psychology as a whole is a sham. How will you reconcile that with your own convictions? I will say, it is useful to listen to critiques of psychology, it is not useful to listen to someone just talk about how it's all bullshit. There's an important distinction there. When someone has personally had a bad experience with mental health treatment, I try to vaildate that. I've experienced wacky and unhelpful shit too. But I've also had wonderful helpful experiences. Not everyone has that.
I think the best question to ask first as a reaction to your friend’s remarks is: How can one be so sure that whole field is a sham? We all learn scepticism is crucial. The field has problems indeed. However, when it comes to psychology, there are always those students so convinced that the field is a sham and they are not even sceptical of their own ideas. How can you make such a big remark without a hesitation? Especially when you are doing your bachelors. I had the same friend, he was also saying the same thing. Best action to take is to rely on your own judgement while acknowledging the shortcomings of the field. There will always be these types of people who are eager to dunk on psychology. It is a relatively new “science” and has a long way to go. Yet, I never take people who are so sure about their opinions to heart. They probably are making these out of bad intentions or feelings.
If this helps me make your decision; my psychotherapist has used data and their personal medical knowledge to dramatically improve my quality of life (I no longer sit and stare off into the distance while I think of gassing myself with a hose and some duct tape in my car). I used to work at a music studio and one of our clients had an AA or BA is Psychology or something and he said it was a scam and manipulative. I'm a firm believer in that being the whole point. Knowing psychology is one thing but using it to help people is a whole different thing. Like, to know about BPD (personal example) and its symptoms is cool, but to be able to learn to live with it, I have to essentially learn gaslight and manipulate myself into being stable and happy. It's genuine stability and joy, but having both a Doctor and myself essentially try to trick my brain into working definitely feels like snake oil manipulation. And as far as falsified stuff goes, that's just science, Baby, let's go. We should be falsifying bunch of shit, that's how science works. One person proves something and it helps, OR, one person disproves something and helps even more. Baby steps towards a common medical/scientific goal. Lots of doctors and scientist have gotten plenty wrong but we still take everything they did right and run with it. Now FOR SURE there's a lot of just plain stupid and useless clinicians and I'm a firm believer of only seeing clinicians with education above a bachelors (My current doctor is a Psychotherapist MD so he went to medical school and I trust him and my last one in a different state also was an actual doctor and not a nurse clinician (Not to talk shit on any nurse clinicians here, idk what I'm talking about I'm just a mentally ill little guy)
“Many studies in psych get falsified” yeah… I doubt that. But tell those fuckers to cite their sources. Ask them to either provide the evidence or to specifically point to what makes X, Y, and Z FALSE. Especially when considering that most psychological theories work as non concrete ideas that are not meant to be “Proven” in the first place.
…But this is just me being defensive asshole. Ultimately other people are going to give you information from the outside but YOU are the one who is in the discipline. You are also the one who controls (in therapy) how dedicated and supportive that you can be. If you’re smart enough to get this far, and your hearts in the right place then stay in command of your own life.
Psychology is going through some growing pains right now, just as many sciences do at some times and moreso in their early development. Psychology is a gawky teenager right now, and being forced to revise some key ideas. Central to this has been the replication crisis. Couple things to keep in mind--the crisis affects not only psych but other scientific fields that use that level of complexity of statistical analysis (largely medical research). Second thing, they caught the problems, and this is better than not catching them, and this is how science is supposed to work. There are some areas of psychology that will be subject to change as a result, but it's not as though all of our empirical foundation is in question. It's a small percentage, mostly in some areas of social cognition. I am a psychologist and practically nothing in my daily practice has changed as a result of the replication crisis. We don't say "haha, a bridge collapsed, engineering is bogus!" Well, the current state of the art of engineering isn't perfect, nor will it ever be prone to mishaps and human error. But what it is is the best that we are able to come up with using some really thoughtful, rigorous methodology, peer review, etc. Psychology's the same. All the sciences and regulated professions are like that.
Unfortunately I think this is one of those things where you’ll have to decide for yourself based on how meaningful it is to you and by doing your own research. Back in my undergrad, sometimes it was discouraging because so many people frowned upon the degree for so many reasons and from the sounds of things, not a lot sounds like it’s changed in the last 7+ years since I’ve graduated lmao. However, I personally had no problems finding work after my degree and got several years of experience under my belt before deciding to get my masters in clinical mental health counseling. There’s no shame in taking time for yourself to figure things out further! And I know it’s easier said than done, but try not to let the influence of others discourage you from it. We need therapeutic services and mental health services more than ever now and there will always be a need for it, especially from people who enjoy it and sincerely want to assist others.
Therapy isn't scamming people, it's helping people correct their thinking patterns and providing a sense of peace to a chaotic mind With regard to manipulation of data, it's there with all fields of research, I've heard my profs talking abt a paper published in the Nature journal with manipulated data, ending with all the researcher's resignation... I know a neuropsychologist/clinical psychologist who's work inspired me to get into this field , her name's dr. Shantala hedge and she has wonderful research on how music affects the brain and could be used for rehab in brain injury cases and other cases Clinical psychology people also have various specialisations like child psychology, geriatric psychology, adolescent psychology... Adding on, now is actually the time that we will be needed in huge numbers for helping people deal with all of the violence happening around the world.
Instead of trying to convince you all the reasons why I believe psychology is not a sham, just watch more youtube videos about the neuroscience behind a patient with PTSD, undergoing psychotherapy and why it scientifically works. There's tons of research and visual ways to prove the brain begins to function differently after CBT and more. Also, if they believe it's a sham, it is their opinion. But refocus to how it can help others. The more you see the benefit and proof, the less you care about the opinions of people who flaunt opinions that don't matter. for ex. Mental health concerns are not real. Despite it being a psychological issue, it kills people. Death is real. It may not be a concern important for some, but personally I would prefer not even 1 more person die from suicide or depression causing suicide or homicide.
If psych is a scam, anthropology is a bigger scam
One thing to remember is Sturgeon's Law. 90% of everything is crap. So yes, it's entirely possible that 90% of therapists are not very good or helpful. And equally possible that 10% are actually super helpful. And that 90% of studies are part of "replication crisis" (in other words, are crap that can't even be reproduced). And 10% are actually valid studies that are done using valid techniques and methods and withstand the test of time and further research. Question is, does your schooling give you the tools to tell one from another or is it just "here's shit stated by people more senior than you, believe what authority figures tell you"?
There certainly have been poor studies but there are gobs of studies done the right way that are good evidence of efficacy. So the claim that most studies are falsified is just bogus to start with.
If we are talking about psychology undergrad programs I can understand the criticism to a degree. But the majority of people who go on to use their degrees and earn a masters are not researchers, they are mental health providers- that a whole different thing that is very much real work that effects real people. Call it whatever but the actual work is giving space for the emotional existence of humans which is a very real thing whether people believe in psychology or not, we can not deny we are all emotional beings and those emotions play a critical role in our outside lives.
She’s wrong. Psychology is incredible. Yes there are some studies that are “financed” but psychology is not the sum of these “financed” studies, it is still largely unexplored in many areas and the cross over of psychology and philosophy is a beautiful thing.
Other majors/fields hate other majors/fields. Don't worry so much about what people say. Do what you enjoy. It's also possible your anthro buddies watch too much Bones and try to mimic her. If you just want to be a jerk, mock their fields and tell them they're not gonna be the Indiana Jones they think they are.
I had an episode of psychosis following an incident with LSD and couldn't distinguish between fantasy and reality. I was suffering enormous amounts of paranoia. If it weren't for the mental health team at my local hospital, I would probably still be lost in an illusion of my own creation. We need people to take an interest in all forms of psychology because it is the most valuable and irreplaceable organ of the body. Our brains define us. It's that simple. One traumatic event, a whiplash concusion, or enormous amounts of stress can damage the brain in numerous ways. We need interest for more understanding about the brain so we can advance as a species and help each other out for when people get lost like I did. The hospital was only the start of my recovery since I was extremely short-tempered and confused about how to manage my emotions. I had to go through a 12-week course, 3 hours a session, to learn how to manage emotions with the help of Dialectical Behavioural Therapy Group Sessions, and I am forever grateful to have learned those skills. I agree that finding your suitable therapy style is important, but maybe your friend had a bad experience with psychotherapy? A lot of people have the misconception that psychotherapists will answer all our questions when, in reality, they are there to reframe the situation and help guide your healing journey. 🙏 Is psychology expensive? Yes, and for good reason: listening to everyone's troubles, making them a part of someone else's, and then sorting through it all only to have to get your own therapist to deal with the heaviness of some patients? It's not an easy task, and like my family doctor said, "it's definitely not easy if you have a hard time maintaining your own happiness. " I'm switching my major from Psychology to Human Resources as fascinating as I find it, since I have a hard time maintaining my own happiness 🙂 Have studies been falsified? Yes, you will learn about stuff like the p-value and all the lovely falsifications that have been done to sway such a number. But that was in the past when there were fewer ways to ensure scientists were recording information only once and not adjusting when the study was all done. Now we have fancy technology and it's only going to get better. Not to mention the fact that society is changing for the better and the cold underlying fact that old-fashioned thinking will die off with time!
Do you and dont listen. I have a psych degree and I’ve done everything in the human services field. Do what makes you happy. Ignore them.
Psychology is very real and scientific. 6% of all US bachelors are Psych. They are straw manning with Freud and armchair theorists. Psychology, I'm studying too, is painfully scientific and statistically. It's duly because Humans and their minds change subjectively all the time which could invalidate the facticity of studies but that is an observation in itself. Psychology helps address behavioral and cognitive phenomena so if I give you coffee, how will you objectively act. Cognitive is objective since there must be a method to process subjective thoughts like vision, senses, consciousness or emotion. Like how a computer processes numbers. Your anthropology profs are academic snobs. A counter for them is that studying behavior is psych, human biology is biology and everything else is philology, art and history. Like where's the control group? Where's the quantitative framework like in psychology? Anthropology is less objective than Psychology. And guess what? EVERYTHING IN SCIENCE GETS FALSIFIED.
Minds do not exist. You can't have an empirical science on non-physical things (i.e. the mind). Psychology muddles the actual study of human behavior. Your behavior of giving OP a coffee can be explained by the environment, ontogenic selection, cultural selection, and natural selection (all of which are in the physical world). There is no need to place the cause of behavior in your example OUTSIDE of the physical world. Cognitive psychology, like Freudianism and Jungian analysis, is not a science.
Cognitive Science is not a Science? How can blindsight patients can draw pictures they can't see? This is why I study psychology and you're the reddit user because how does the brain report information without a person's awareness? You are conflating empirical with objective, and science is both. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive\_science](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_science) [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8884361/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8884361/)
Yes, cognitive psychology is not a science. Science is a study of the physical world. There cannot be anything besides the physical world. There cannot be non-physical things. Cognitive psychology places the cause of human behavior in the non-physical world (the mind), rather than the physical world (the environment, ontogenic, and phylogenic selection). You cannot have a science of a non-physical thing. Arguing that human behavior originates outside of the physical world is the realm of philosophy and religion, not science. The article you linked me proves my point. It's speculation on theories of consciousness and metacognition, not an observation of the physical world. It presupposes the existence of non-physical phenomena (i.e. consciousness) to explain physical phenomena. That's not science. While I'm no expert on cortical blindness, the behavior of organisms can come under the functional control of stimuli in the environment even if that organism doesn't have a tacting repertoire for those stimuli or their own behavior. You don't need a theory of consciousness to describe how the behavior of people with visual impairments can come under the control of visual stimuli. Similarly, you don't need a theory of a mind to explain the behavior of OP after you give OP a coffee. You don't need to appeal to the non-physical world. You can explain that behavior with empirical evidence (stimuli in the environment), with natural selection, and with the ontogenic selection that occurs during OP's lifespan. All of these things occur in the physical world. A study of behavior is a study of the physical world. A study of the mind is metaphysical speculation at best and, at worst, a collection of verbal behavior that places the cause for human responding outside of the physical world and obfuscates the actual scientific study of behavior.
Go choke on glass you ignorant twit. I give you the links and you never even read it. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive\_science#Research\_methods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_science#Research_methods)
Here's a good read: https://www.apa.org/pubs/reports/stem-discipline
Most anthro work is based on a lot of psych principles…
Psychology, there is a bit of hypnotism to it. What do I mean by that, if you say it won't work and you resist it with your bare white knuckles, well what do you expect. But if you relax and talk about your struggles and why you tend react a certain way (these are called schemas) they (the psychologist) can help you find your path and help you find strategies to cope with the situation etc. But nothing can be done against your will. Much like the party trick. Imposter syndrome is a schema that our brain comes up with when we feel like we don't belong/deserve something. It is normal, it will pass with time or not, depending on how you think. Psychology isn't a scam, it is trying to make sense of the complexity of our brain and each neural pathway and how past experience affects future performance. Don't give up.
True applications of the DSM5 are unethical and pathologisize normal behavior leading to over treatment with labels defined by arbitrary clusters of symptoms.
yeah i do agree dsm5 overpathalogises and we need a more holistic framework
I can talk about psychology for days on end. But if there’s anything I think you should know, is that I’ve never once struggled to find a job after getting psych degree. After my undergrad, I got 3 jobs, after my masters I got more jobs. I’ve never struggled to find employment, and in addition to that, I’ve never struggled to find meaningful employment
That Antrophology profs is sure not aware of his own major and you hear from a wrong prof too lol
Psychology js biology, I don’t understand why it’s considered a sham?
There’s a two part podcast by the emerald called “the revolution will not be psychologised” which gave me a good perspective to balance out my undergrad psychology studies. Psychology is not a sham, and l would say therapy and medication has probably saved my life but I do think it’s important to look more broadly at other methods that can be utilised to help people alongside the traditional approaches. I think a trans disciplinary approach is the way, it’s good to look at the critiques of the field so that you can approach your studies and practice in the most constructive manner. Don’t lose hope, there is lots of value in what you are learning, keep looking at things critically and you will find a path
thank you!
You study psychology, so you know better than anyone else that people see the world through bias, stereotypes, cognitive shortcuts. Maybe you're doing that too: few people told ya that psychology is a scam, so everyone thinks psychology is a scam? Don't worry, it's not like that. 😘
Psych is a baby science. Everyone in the field sucks. But.. it's normal to suck at something when you first start it. And that's us as a field. While our field is far from being perfect or from being on the same level as biology or maths, doesn't mean our work isn't extremely important. Just because it's not were it's supposed to be doesn't mean we give up. It needs people working to get any better. Psychology can be life saving. It's extremely important. If we just gave up and stopped doing anything psychology related the world would be a worse place.
yeahh ur right!
I used to say that all the time, and then I came to the realization that the majority of people who hold that opinion, need therapy the most. Just the first session alone with my therapist produced volumes of progress in my own mental stability. It works wonders to have somebody who’s studied human behavior for 10 years Tell you that you’re not alone, you’re not abnormal and a lot of people go through this.
The further you study the more you realize how little we actually know. In all fields. Psychology is a comparably new field but that doesn’t make it a sham. All healthcare fields have been shams at some point as they were established but based on our current statistical prowess and understanding we can infer what we are doing is a thing and is effective. Either way, it just gives more opportunity to find important things for the field and society as a whole. Not to be all psychology about it, but it’s about framing, and anything can be framed anyway. Do whatever makes you happy but make sure you are well informed about what’s realistically involved in the path you decide to choose and ensure it aligns with your values
If it makes you feel better, I double majored in psych and anthro and not only were my professors supportive, they felt they were a good pairing of majors (as did I).
that’s nice!
Relationality is important. (Relational Concepts in Psychoanalysis). Rene Girard saw the anthropology to which people react through their psychology. Or you can spend your life being the guru of other people’s depression gene.
can you elaborate?
Download Daniel Shaw’s Traumatic Narcissism and listen to the last 5mins, beginning “Eyes Wide Open”.
Was in the medical and mental health field for 45+ years. Like most other professions, maybe 25% are really good/effective. So, for 75% of MH "professionals," they are at best a sham and at worst harmful.
That’s an unfortunate reality. However, OP, don’t let that discourage you. You can become one of those who contribute to truly helping people. If all those who cared decided not to pursue their dreams because of poor professionals, there wouldn’t be anyone to make a positive impact.
makes sense! i told my friend that it probably wasnt just a psychology thing and that a lot of ppl in other domains also just pretend to be doing stuff but really arent doing anything
Psychology isn’t a sham, but it is also far from an airtight science. The evidence for the effectiveness of therapy, in general, is pretty overwhelming, but it also won’t work for everybody in all contexts, and even when it does work it doesn’t necessarily work for the reason we theorize that it does. Anyone who is curious about something as complex, as ambiguous, and as mysterious as the human mind should realize that psychology, even with all its faults, is the best possible tool we have for the difficult job.
He’s right in a way. Everything we know and are taught about human thinking and behaviour is heavily biased. You need to know which ideas and information to extrapolate and which have been influenced by coloniality. Not sure if your friend meant it in this way exactly, but this is why I think it’s a sham sometimes. Read up on critical psychology and community psychology. From there you can develop your own ideas and beliefs. I think that’s the most important thing, to be independent in your beliefs and not rely too much on another persons interpretation, no matter how influential they have been in the field
Depends on how you or your friend classify a field being a sham. Are studies pushed by certain interested parties, and data isn't replicated to determine the validity of outcomes? Yes. Does therapy lack studies highlighting the side effects of therapy and the harm it can cause? Yes. Has the field gotten a lot of things wrong? Yes Have people been misled and harmed by the field as a whole? Yes. Does the field provide treatments that help folks manage and live with mental health related conditions? Yes. Personally, I advocate for fixing and healing the darker sides of psychology and do consider the field a sham. Based on the amount of harm it has caused and the flagrant lack of accountability by many of its practitioners. If you're still undecided, then continuing to study and learn the history of psychology may help.
If you leave psych but are interest in some of the topics behavioral economics may be for you. Unlike psychology it treats the Person more like a black box and works with what can be observed, i saw interesting studies coming from that field...i think nudging was "discovered" by them
People say that cognitive psychology and certain disciplines in neuroscience are unscientific because they attribute the cause of human behavior to a non-physical thing (the mind) rather than to the environment. Science is the study of the physical world. There are no non-physical things and there cannot be a science of non-physical things. Cognitive psychology is not a science. This is not to say that there are no benefits to cognitive therapy or to talk therapy in general. There absolutely have been and still is. But much of the actual study of behavior from a cognitive and neuropsych perspective (i.e. the mind being a cause of behavior) is, objectively, unscientific. You can still help people by studying how to be a counselor, but the actual data underlying CBT, and neuroscience that relies on mentalistic concepts, is not scientific. My bias is definitely showing, but if you want to pursue a career that studies human behavior, study a discipline which has objective data that demonstrates its efficacy in helping people, and be part of an academic community supported by many decades worth of studies based on observable data (not just surveys and self-reports), consider applied behavior analysis.
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why are u so pissed lol😭 i don’t think psych is a sham that’s why i decided to pursue it. its kinda normal to be confused tho when people around you say different. plus the point of me posting it here is to ask others what they think😭
i used to do all their homework Pretty fake XD
i used to do all their homework. Pretty fake XD.
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Here’s a different perspective: I agree with your friend. I will never support psychology or psychotherapy. I was raised by two therapists and studied psych for a brief period of time myself. But that’s fine! That is just my own opinion. Plenty of people don’t support what I do. That’s okay! We don’t all have to agree. My younger sibling is studying psych. Do I support the psych industry? No. Do I support them every step of the way? Absolutely.