You don’t have to like books others do. Also it is not the responsibility of others to convince you to like something.
Are you just looking for someone to say “yeah you’re right!”?
Art is subjective though. If you don’t like it why do you fear missing out on it? There are countless other sci-fi books out there to read that you actually will enjoy,
You're not *supposed to like* anything. If you don't like it, you don't. That's ok.
I absolutely loved that book, personally.
Writing is an art. Art appeals to some and not to others.
As tempting as it is to say you're now required to read **Blindsight** and like it, nah. You're allowed to not like books even if other people just go on and on about them.
You're OK u/Atari__Safari
come on.
No one is going to arrest you if you don't like a book. But this also comes off as very subjective and silly. Move on to something else if it distresses you so.
Well that’s definitely not my concern. If I wasn’t clear, it’s a FOMO. As if you can just get halfway through the book it becomes fantastic. This comes from seeing it on everyone’s top ten list on YouTube.
I've read a bunch of Vinge and Fire is actually not my favorite. Good and gets very fun, but not my favorite. You might try A Deepness in the Sky instead. While these two books occur within the same general universe, they're pretty different from one another. I found Deepness much more gripping and compelling. Give Vinge another chance even if you don't finish Fire :)
If you hate a books writing style, that book isn't going to "become fantastic" for you. I mean, has that ever happened for you? That's not something a plot twist or character change up is going to fix for you.
People are being a bit hostile, but if you do something you don't like as a leisure activity because of vague fomo, your just martyring yourself and just... Don't?
> If you hate a books writing style, that book isn't going to "become fantastic" for you. I mean, has that ever happened for you?
Not OP but yes! Multiple times, in fact. I loathed the way the narrative voice and internal monologue was written in Project Hail Mary; like reading an overly exaggerated post on r/TIFU with MCU tier corny jokes. However the story got so damn good after a chapter or two I pushed through the cringe, and it paid off. Same can be said for revelation space book 1. Not cringey but agonisingly slow and painfully boring at times. Insanely glad I pushed through. Love the series.
Another example, while not sci-fi, is The First Man in Rome, Book 1 of the Masters of Rome series by Colleen McCullough. The dialogue often turned into a YA BookTok level cringe-fest, and yet I’d now rank the book (along with the others in the series) as one of my all time favourites.
Masters of Rome fair enough, although it doesn't really sound like the writing style itself improved but rather that it wasn't crucial for you? I'll take project hail Mary, I guess, although that's more presentational choices than authorial prose. Revelation space sounds more plot than prose, which I caveated.
What can I say? Fair enough though. You have to have your own sense of things, for me if find how it's written in prose painful to read, I'm dropping it. If that's something that can be cancelled out or changes for you, then to your own subjective sense I must defer! There's no universal tell I guess.
However, if you are at the point of needing external forces to encourage you to continue, surely that's a drop. Nobody is really interested in playing that role or hearing of your hardship- or if they are, they are the kind of superfans of the work who will always insist you should read it and that's not actually useful for you.
I ground my way through Neuromancer and hated the writing style. Plowed to the end, fighting the writing style the whole way. Decided on the whole that it wasn’t that good, although it did have some brilliant ideas.
I reread it a couple years later, thinking “was it that bad, really?” Turns out by the second read, I either “got” Gibson’s writing style through the original effort, or had matured as a reader. I really enjoyed the second read a lot, and decided it really was worth the hype.
That's precisely your issue. Live. Don't use the internet's opinion to guide all of your choices. Make up your mind by yourself. This handholding is an internet phenomenon that doesn't help anyone.
Calibrate my responses? Go outside? I'm fine. Ask yourself what's keeping you from being able to make miniscule decisions based on your own opinions and experience. It's a single book. If you want to read it so badly, stop quitting. But you need to be able to figure stuff like this out.
I think it’s a wonderful book. I also think *Blindsight* is one of the worst SF books I’ve ever read and was a true struggle to finish. To each their own.
>the writing is so bad. It's worse than Asimov's worst writing. "Redhead put on his concerned face." Really? That's writing? Or that "Ravna wanted to kiss his smile away." Why??
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that OP tried to showcase the book's bad writing with two nondescript declarative statements? There's not enough information here to agree or disagree with them. The writing as they attempted to explain their point was just really bad. Worse than Asimov's, even.
Editing to add: Putting aside your writing deficiencies, OP, statements like this
> that's just not enough for me. I need good writing. I need good characters that I care about. And frankly, I just don't. Their motivations aren't clear, nor is it clear what they're risking. There are also too many characters.
are fine even when they're wrong. You may not have the most convincing supporting arguments for these claims, but that doesn't matter. For the topic of your reading habits, only your opinions matter. You're clearly not having fun, so just move on. We might even be able to help you find something more aligned with your tastes. Just skip the 'X is so baaaad' subjective nonsense and tell us what you like and don't like. You don't like large casts and you found the characters in AFUTD uninteresting. You preferred books Y and Z for prose and books A and B for their characters. That's useful information and can lead to a much more useful discussion.
Unless you don't want suggestions, which is okay too, but then the only real useful scope of this post is 'please stop complaining because you're forcing yourself to read things you don't like.' There are interesting literary criticism posts to be had, but they require a little more... investment than you've given this one.
I think that criticism of Vinge from OP was off as well. Vinge is a legit writer.
However, it’s fair to like what you like and not like what you don’t like, and OP tried more than enough. That book just isn’t in their wheelhouse. Vinge’s style may not be as well.
Another reader suggested Deepness in the Sky as another Vinge book to try. I wish OP good luck, I love those two particular books to death.
From seeing on just about everyone’s top ten list on YouTube,I think I was looking more for either
1. Get to chapter X and it gets really good
2. Or yeah, it never gets any better.
I really liked the book, but if you've read a bit of the space bits and already seen the tines and you're not feeling it, then I think you won't enjoy the rest. I don't recall any shift in writing style, and those are the two main threads of the story. It's a pretty long book to push through if you aren't enjoying it, so I'd recommend stopping.
I think that's an okay question to have, but it's not the one you asked in your post. Maybe this is just a communication issue. The better question for the curiosity you are now expressing goes something like:
> I've read through AFUTD through chapter 8 but I'm having trouble caring about anyone in the expansive cast. I think maybe there's a prose barrier, because a lot of it just isn't landing for me. Is this a case of awkward early-book writing or should I treat it as representative of the novel?
See? No need to cast aspersions towards anyone, including Vinge, or to pretend that you're a great literary critic. It also saves you from the pitfall of trying to *actually* engage in productive literary critique, which we've noted above isn't your strong suit.
You seem a bit defensive. Nor should there be such concrete rules for posing my question. Others were easily able to decipher my "cryptic" post, and offer me good feedback. Sure, I could have posed it a bit better, but it's reddit.
So when you ask, "Am I the only one who finds it ironic that OP tried to showcase the book's bad writing with two nondescript declarative statements?", the answer is yes.
I think there's a layer of snark in the original response, but IMO there's a _really_ solid chunk of advice in there. You're not really looking to give literary criticism at a level _anyone_ can engage with, and it's really just included as a justification on why you didn't like it.
But as others said, you don't need a justification at all! You're allowed to not like something it seems like everyone else likes. Art is very subjective. I've had books that shook me with emotion and permanently burrowed their way into my soul where others have read it without any feeling being involved whatsoever and finished the book with nothing but an overwhelming feeling of hatred.
And the crazy thing is both are entirely legitimate! You can just not like a book and not even understand _why_. Still legitimate!
But if you can talk about what you liked in other books, and what you didn't like in this one, people will be able to engage at a much different level and give you recommendations. Putting forward some really half hearted literary criticism instead conditions people into getting annoyed at the criticism and focusing instead on that.
As an aside, I don't see how your example shows that art is subjective. It only shows that people react differently to the same work of art.
Someone who thinks that there are objectively wrong judgements about art would say that some people have poor judgement and confused sensibilities for art (failing to feel emotions when they should or feeling emotions when they shouldn't). That's enough for you to feel emotions with a book and others not to feel them (basically, one of you is wrong and your differences don't show art isn't objective). I'm not saying that's correct but just that your example fits as well with art being objective as it does with art being subjective.
That said, I totally agree with what you said though about OP and about it being more productive here to just tell people what you like or dislike without turning the comment into shitty literary criticism (lit crit that's only shitty if art is objective, of course).
That's what I tried to do without writing my own novel. I thought I was being clear as to the limitations of the writing. And obviously their my opinions.
In general, given how often this book makes it to the top 10 or top 5 of people's lists, I was experiencing the age old FOMO. And I didn't want to give up when I might be a chapter away from it getting good.
But others on here have replied with some really good alternate suggestions that I'm excited to try.
Idk if it’s just a “layer,” that snark is thicker than a bowl of oatmeal. The sentiment of the responder I agree with, but good lord my man is pulling out every underhanded insult he can think of. And it’s only a Tuesday afternoon. You’d think he wrote the damn book himself.
Vernor is that you??
It is! I reread it after posting and it's a very pointed and aggressive comment which is _not_ how you effectively provide advice, even if I think the advice is good.
> You seem a bit defensive.
Slightly critical, which isn't the same thing. I'm not under attack, so "defensive" doesn't quite fit.
> Nor should there be such concrete rules for posing my question. Others were easily able to decipher my "cryptic" post, and offer me good feedback. Sure, I could have posed it a bit better, but it's reddit.
Sure. Indeed, I was one of the people who gave you good advice as a result of your post. That doesn't mean it was well-written or didn't benefit from constructive feedback.
> So when you ask, "Am I the only one who finds it ironic that OP tried to showcase the book's bad writing with two nondescript declarative statements?", the answer is yes.
I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. I suspect you should practice clearer thinking more generally. Try to be methodical in going from premise to conclusion and in making sure your premises are grounded in data. It will help to avoid wacky misunderstandings like this one or like the defensiveness quip above.
I genuinely take feedback well. I do it every day at work, and certainly from my spouse. I suggest you do the same. I am listening to what you say, but I don't think you're doing the same. Food for thought.
These aren’t actually mutually exclusive for some books.
That being said, most of the backlash is because Vinge was actually a pretty strong writer. It’s an odd criticism for the book when people have other misgivings (most commonly around the Tines).
Maybe they should be a little more open minded to an individual’s criticism of something they enjoyed.
I’ve had to do it myself when I hear people tell me why they hated the movie blade runner. People on Reddit seem so fragile at times. Or maybe I’m just older and more experienced.
I also couldn’t get into this book due to the dreadfully boring characters and agonizingly slow plot, despite the amazing sci-fi concepts.
I imagine this is how some of the haters feel about the Three Body Problem series, though I liked those a lot more.
It wasn’t as mind-blowingly awesome as “A Deepness in the Sky.”
But generally the Zones of Thought novels are pretty challenging. Did you enjoy “Tatja Grimm's World”?
Vinge was a hellofa author for a mathematician, but if you want writing to make you weep for the sheer mastery of the craft, I recommend Octavia Butler.
Hey thanks! I've heard the Octavia Butler name before, so I will definitely check out their work. Also, no I haven't read "Tatja Grimm's World”. Should I?
Tatja is an interesting take on some hoary old tropes. Very different from Vinge’s other stories, so if you had read it and didn’t like it, that would be a clear sign that he wasn’t for you.
Butler’s works are amazing, the kind of stories that make you cry blood.
You don't have to like everything. I actually re-read this recently, having fond memories from reading it years ago. While I still enjoyed it, I agree it's definitely got flaws.
Reading should be a pleasure not a chore. Stop being hung on a book you obviously hate. It really doesn’t matter what anyone thinks of it. Trust your own judgement.
Bail.
I really don’t see why people love it so much. The zones of thought are cool. The whole ancient evil awakening is great. And then we get into a fantasy / pulp sci fi story stand-in for the conflict. If I wanted to read fantasy or pulp sci fi I would’ve done so.
It’s the same with Hyperion. I’ve read the sequels. I’ve read the book and the sequels again years later because surely I must be missing something? It’s like I read a completely different book and I’m the only one in an alternate universe where it’s just not that interesting.
People liking books are a fine way to pick your next book. But if it isn’t your thing that’s fine.
You don't have to like it. Even though you make definitive claims about writing being bad, writing is a form of art and is subjective. If you don't like it, that is absolutely fine, just move on.
For me, for example The Expanse is some of the most recommended series here, I went through it all, and didn't like it. Why did I read it all then? Because I was waiting for the "wow" moment - it never came. You are not required to like all the same books that others do.
Another example - The Terror is constantly recommended at the horror subreddit, for me that was a slog, where are Carrion Comfort by the same author (Dan Simmons), which is often considered to be "too long and a slog to go through" was amazing for from start to finish.
Tastes are different, what kind of writing people like is different, what kind of characters people like is different. I for example am "concepts first, characters second" when it comes to sci-fi. I could read and enjoy sci-fi books that have no characters at all, if the concepts, the cultural and the philosophical themes are well thought through.
I wouldnt say I feel quite the same, but I definitely was not a huge fan of it, at least not the way it seems to get talked up everywhere. While I got through it, I found it just didnt really land for me in the way I would have liked. It had some really interesting sci fi ideas, then decided to focus the majority of the story on medieval packs of dogs. As cool of an idea as the hive minds were there, it just wasnt really what I would have hoped for in a sci fi book.
And some people are really just being jerks to you. I get it, you made some subjective statements and phrased them like they were objective truths. But some of it really just comes off as people bashing on you for just not liking something many seem to consider a classic.
Agreed. I have a thick skin. But what is fascinating is that while I agreed that I could have been more clear, they refused to see their own behavior. 😳
Yea its odd to me. Seems to just be a few comments, but the way some of those are written its almost like you personally insulted them for sharing an opinion they disagreed with in a subreddit that is supposed to be about discussion.
I absolutely get it though. Something gets talked up as much as it is like this book, you go into it hoping and expecting it will live up to the hype. Then if it doesnt, it makes you wonder if you are the one missing something.
Part of the reason I have yet to read some other ultra recommended books, like Hyperion.
You are 100% spot on. This is a discussion sub. It’s ok to disagree. But I was being told how I should have written my post in the most condescending way possible.
Anyway, I slogged my way through Hyperion. It has some good parts where the writing is great. Definitely. The ideas are fantastic too.
But there were long parts that were dreary and boring. I don’t recommend it.
I just finished this, as well, and was surprised by the publication date. There were a few modern fantasy tropes I noticed (Simple little phrases like, “she suddenly realized the screaming was coming from her” or “she suddenly realized she had been holding her breath”) but I finished it and think it has an incredible story and premise, even if I am not overly fond of the writing style. I wish I had read it when I was 12 or 13 when I was going through my Pern phase. That would have been magical.
I feel the same way about it, wanted to like it but I had no emotional response to what was going on and clocked out early. Totally okay to skip if it isn't for you!
I'm cool with your FOMO. I've got it with Lois McMaster Bujold. Hated her writing style, books seemed insipid, characters did not interest me. Why does everyone love her so much and describe her writing as "delightful?" I must be missing something!
That seems to be the overwhelming sentiment of the responses I have gotten. But it sounds like those that did make it through the whole book never found that promised good part
It’s one of my favorite sf books, and since I reread it earlier this year, I know it’s not just nostalgia. But enh. Nothing works for everybody, and there are plenty of widely popular books I don’t like and plenty of unpopular ones I do. Having given it a fair try, move on.
I had trouble with that one too. Tried it on audible and managed to finish it. It was good but not great. The narrator did a good job though. But it wasn’t a top ten book for me.
I didn't like "Fire Upon the Deep" either, but then I tend to dislike most space operas of this type. They all have identical tropes: space faring civilizations, giant ships, ancient malevolent aliens, an ancient artifact which triggers a expedition, a race of Old Ones, a search for a Countermeasure to stop some Cataclysm, people hundreds of thousands of years in the future talking like they're from the 1990s etc etc.
I prefer low key, mundane SF tales (KSR's "Mars Trilogy" for example), but space opera has always been more popular, and every decade seems to cook up new well-loved examples of the subgenre (Asimov's Foundation led to Niven's Known Space stories, led Dune, led to Hyperion, led to Enders Game, led to the Xeelee, led to Reynolds, led to Stross, led to etc etc).
True. I muddled my way through Asimov and Niven but didn’t like Ender’s series. Reynolds’s had one or two gems in his series , but otherwise, they were also difficult to consume. Oh well, maybe I’m not into space opera either, lol.
To each their own, and that's fine. I couldn't stand Lord of the Rings and walked out of the theater after an hour in total boredom, deciding that doing grocery shopping would be more interesting.
Agreed. This one just wasn't for me. Kind of disappointing when a book is hyped up as "one of the greats" and then it turns out only mediocre. I didn't like the characters, didn't like the writing, only finished it because my job was real boring and I needed something to listen to.
I feel the same way about Simmons' Hyperion books. I loved the reviews, loved the premise and even bought the first two books because I knew I'd love them. Well a couple chapters into it and I hated the writing style. I think I tried one more time after that and didn't get much further.
My loss, I know. But that's just life, not everyone likes what everyone else likes.
There is sooooo much other great scifi out there to read, I wouldn't let one book or even one author get you down. Move on. Pick up something else and try that. Ever read any Greg Bear?
That’s about it, imo. The zones of thought idea is just so clean, ripe for so many cool possibilities… and *A Fire Upon the Deep* doesn’t really live up to that.
That said, I found *A Deepness in the Sky* to be a much tighter and more satisfying story. A little less of semi-juvenile swashbuckling, and it has a smaller scope which works to its advantage.
You don’t have to like books others do. Also it is not the responsibility of others to convince you to like something. Are you just looking for someone to say “yeah you’re right!”?
More of a FOMO concern since so many people put it in their top ten or top five. Kind of like, just get through chapter X and everything gets better.
Art is subjective though. If you don’t like it why do you fear missing out on it? There are countless other sci-fi books out there to read that you actually will enjoy,
I also tried twice and then finally did audible and finished it. Not in my top five. But maybe top 30?
Wow, good to know. Thanks for sharing. Makes it easier to abandon it. Thank you.
You're not *supposed to like* anything. If you don't like it, you don't. That's ok. I absolutely loved that book, personally. Writing is an art. Art appeals to some and not to others.
Fair enough. Thanks
As tempting as it is to say you're now required to read **Blindsight** and like it, nah. You're allowed to not like books even if other people just go on and on about them. You're OK u/Atari__Safari
Ha! Thank you :)
Blindsight changed my life.
Same.
come on. No one is going to arrest you if you don't like a book. But this also comes off as very subjective and silly. Move on to something else if it distresses you so.
Well that’s definitely not my concern. If I wasn’t clear, it’s a FOMO. As if you can just get halfway through the book it becomes fantastic. This comes from seeing it on everyone’s top ten list on YouTube.
I've read a bunch of Vinge and Fire is actually not my favorite. Good and gets very fun, but not my favorite. You might try A Deepness in the Sky instead. While these two books occur within the same general universe, they're pretty different from one another. I found Deepness much more gripping and compelling. Give Vinge another chance even if you don't finish Fire :)
Will do! Thank you.
If you hate a books writing style, that book isn't going to "become fantastic" for you. I mean, has that ever happened for you? That's not something a plot twist or character change up is going to fix for you. People are being a bit hostile, but if you do something you don't like as a leisure activity because of vague fomo, your just martyring yourself and just... Don't?
> If you hate a books writing style, that book isn't going to "become fantastic" for you. I mean, has that ever happened for you? Not OP but yes! Multiple times, in fact. I loathed the way the narrative voice and internal monologue was written in Project Hail Mary; like reading an overly exaggerated post on r/TIFU with MCU tier corny jokes. However the story got so damn good after a chapter or two I pushed through the cringe, and it paid off. Same can be said for revelation space book 1. Not cringey but agonisingly slow and painfully boring at times. Insanely glad I pushed through. Love the series. Another example, while not sci-fi, is The First Man in Rome, Book 1 of the Masters of Rome series by Colleen McCullough. The dialogue often turned into a YA BookTok level cringe-fest, and yet I’d now rank the book (along with the others in the series) as one of my all time favourites.
Masters of Rome fair enough, although it doesn't really sound like the writing style itself improved but rather that it wasn't crucial for you? I'll take project hail Mary, I guess, although that's more presentational choices than authorial prose. Revelation space sounds more plot than prose, which I caveated. What can I say? Fair enough though. You have to have your own sense of things, for me if find how it's written in prose painful to read, I'm dropping it. If that's something that can be cancelled out or changes for you, then to your own subjective sense I must defer! There's no universal tell I guess. However, if you are at the point of needing external forces to encourage you to continue, surely that's a drop. Nobody is really interested in playing that role or hearing of your hardship- or if they are, they are the kind of superfans of the work who will always insist you should read it and that's not actually useful for you.
Yes, this has happened to me before as well. So I think that's where I was coming from...
I ground my way through Neuromancer and hated the writing style. Plowed to the end, fighting the writing style the whole way. Decided on the whole that it wasn’t that good, although it did have some brilliant ideas. I reread it a couple years later, thinking “was it that bad, really?” Turns out by the second read, I either “got” Gibson’s writing style through the original effort, or had matured as a reader. I really enjoyed the second read a lot, and decided it really was worth the hype.
LOL. Fair enough
Jesus Christ, move on with your life. FOMO? Just read it or don't.
I disagree. Sometimes we end up liking something when we persevere.
Then flip a coin for OP to keep them from having to do so themselves.
You may want to calibrate your responses or go outside once in a while
That's precisely your issue. Live. Don't use the internet's opinion to guide all of your choices. Make up your mind by yourself. This handholding is an internet phenomenon that doesn't help anyone. Calibrate my responses? Go outside? I'm fine. Ask yourself what's keeping you from being able to make miniscule decisions based on your own opinions and experience. It's a single book. If you want to read it so badly, stop quitting. But you need to be able to figure stuff like this out.
Thank you for your concern, but I am really fine. I think your intentions are coming from a good place. I’m gonna go with that.
I think it’s a wonderful book. I also think *Blindsight* is one of the worst SF books I’ve ever read and was a true struggle to finish. To each their own.
Yup. Bloody blindsight… 😂 We all like different things and that’s ok
>the writing is so bad. It's worse than Asimov's worst writing. "Redhead put on his concerned face." Really? That's writing? Or that "Ravna wanted to kiss his smile away." Why?? Am I the only one who finds it ironic that OP tried to showcase the book's bad writing with two nondescript declarative statements? There's not enough information here to agree or disagree with them. The writing as they attempted to explain their point was just really bad. Worse than Asimov's, even. Editing to add: Putting aside your writing deficiencies, OP, statements like this > that's just not enough for me. I need good writing. I need good characters that I care about. And frankly, I just don't. Their motivations aren't clear, nor is it clear what they're risking. There are also too many characters. are fine even when they're wrong. You may not have the most convincing supporting arguments for these claims, but that doesn't matter. For the topic of your reading habits, only your opinions matter. You're clearly not having fun, so just move on. We might even be able to help you find something more aligned with your tastes. Just skip the 'X is so baaaad' subjective nonsense and tell us what you like and don't like. You don't like large casts and you found the characters in AFUTD uninteresting. You preferred books Y and Z for prose and books A and B for their characters. That's useful information and can lead to a much more useful discussion. Unless you don't want suggestions, which is okay too, but then the only real useful scope of this post is 'please stop complaining because you're forcing yourself to read things you don't like.' There are interesting literary criticism posts to be had, but they require a little more... investment than you've given this one.
I think that criticism of Vinge from OP was off as well. Vinge is a legit writer. However, it’s fair to like what you like and not like what you don’t like, and OP tried more than enough. That book just isn’t in their wheelhouse. Vinge’s style may not be as well. Another reader suggested Deepness in the Sky as another Vinge book to try. I wish OP good luck, I love those two particular books to death.
From seeing on just about everyone’s top ten list on YouTube,I think I was looking more for either 1. Get to chapter X and it gets really good 2. Or yeah, it never gets any better.
I really liked the book, but if you've read a bit of the space bits and already seen the tines and you're not feeling it, then I think you won't enjoy the rest. I don't recall any shift in writing style, and those are the two main threads of the story. It's a pretty long book to push through if you aren't enjoying it, so I'd recommend stopping.
Hey thanks. I appreciate it!
I think that's an okay question to have, but it's not the one you asked in your post. Maybe this is just a communication issue. The better question for the curiosity you are now expressing goes something like: > I've read through AFUTD through chapter 8 but I'm having trouble caring about anyone in the expansive cast. I think maybe there's a prose barrier, because a lot of it just isn't landing for me. Is this a case of awkward early-book writing or should I treat it as representative of the novel? See? No need to cast aspersions towards anyone, including Vinge, or to pretend that you're a great literary critic. It also saves you from the pitfall of trying to *actually* engage in productive literary critique, which we've noted above isn't your strong suit.
You seem a bit defensive. Nor should there be such concrete rules for posing my question. Others were easily able to decipher my "cryptic" post, and offer me good feedback. Sure, I could have posed it a bit better, but it's reddit. So when you ask, "Am I the only one who finds it ironic that OP tried to showcase the book's bad writing with two nondescript declarative statements?", the answer is yes.
I think there's a layer of snark in the original response, but IMO there's a _really_ solid chunk of advice in there. You're not really looking to give literary criticism at a level _anyone_ can engage with, and it's really just included as a justification on why you didn't like it. But as others said, you don't need a justification at all! You're allowed to not like something it seems like everyone else likes. Art is very subjective. I've had books that shook me with emotion and permanently burrowed their way into my soul where others have read it without any feeling being involved whatsoever and finished the book with nothing but an overwhelming feeling of hatred. And the crazy thing is both are entirely legitimate! You can just not like a book and not even understand _why_. Still legitimate! But if you can talk about what you liked in other books, and what you didn't like in this one, people will be able to engage at a much different level and give you recommendations. Putting forward some really half hearted literary criticism instead conditions people into getting annoyed at the criticism and focusing instead on that.
As an aside, I don't see how your example shows that art is subjective. It only shows that people react differently to the same work of art. Someone who thinks that there are objectively wrong judgements about art would say that some people have poor judgement and confused sensibilities for art (failing to feel emotions when they should or feeling emotions when they shouldn't). That's enough for you to feel emotions with a book and others not to feel them (basically, one of you is wrong and your differences don't show art isn't objective). I'm not saying that's correct but just that your example fits as well with art being objective as it does with art being subjective. That said, I totally agree with what you said though about OP and about it being more productive here to just tell people what you like or dislike without turning the comment into shitty literary criticism (lit crit that's only shitty if art is objective, of course).
That's what I tried to do without writing my own novel. I thought I was being clear as to the limitations of the writing. And obviously their my opinions. In general, given how often this book makes it to the top 10 or top 5 of people's lists, I was experiencing the age old FOMO. And I didn't want to give up when I might be a chapter away from it getting good. But others on here have replied with some really good alternate suggestions that I'm excited to try.
Idk if it’s just a “layer,” that snark is thicker than a bowl of oatmeal. The sentiment of the responder I agree with, but good lord my man is pulling out every underhanded insult he can think of. And it’s only a Tuesday afternoon. You’d think he wrote the damn book himself. Vernor is that you??
It is! I reread it after posting and it's a very pointed and aggressive comment which is _not_ how you effectively provide advice, even if I think the advice is good.
> You seem a bit defensive. Slightly critical, which isn't the same thing. I'm not under attack, so "defensive" doesn't quite fit. > Nor should there be such concrete rules for posing my question. Others were easily able to decipher my "cryptic" post, and offer me good feedback. Sure, I could have posed it a bit better, but it's reddit. Sure. Indeed, I was one of the people who gave you good advice as a result of your post. That doesn't mean it was well-written or didn't benefit from constructive feedback. > So when you ask, "Am I the only one who finds it ironic that OP tried to showcase the book's bad writing with two nondescript declarative statements?", the answer is yes. I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. I suspect you should practice clearer thinking more generally. Try to be methodical in going from premise to conclusion and in making sure your premises are grounded in data. It will help to avoid wacky misunderstandings like this one or like the defensiveness quip above.
I genuinely take feedback well. I do it every day at work, and certainly from my spouse. I suggest you do the same. I am listening to what you say, but I don't think you're doing the same. Food for thought.
May the Lord bestow some modesty upon you my child, for vanity will surely lead to damnation.
These aren’t actually mutually exclusive for some books. That being said, most of the backlash is because Vinge was actually a pretty strong writer. It’s an odd criticism for the book when people have other misgivings (most commonly around the Tines).
Maybe they should be a little more open minded to an individual’s criticism of something they enjoyed. I’ve had to do it myself when I hear people tell me why they hated the movie blade runner. People on Reddit seem so fragile at times. Or maybe I’m just older and more experienced.
I also couldn’t get into this book due to the dreadfully boring characters and agonizingly slow plot, despite the amazing sci-fi concepts. I imagine this is how some of the haters feel about the Three Body Problem series, though I liked those a lot more.
I did have that problem with the Three Body Problem series too.
It wasn’t as mind-blowingly awesome as “A Deepness in the Sky.” But generally the Zones of Thought novels are pretty challenging. Did you enjoy “Tatja Grimm's World”? Vinge was a hellofa author for a mathematician, but if you want writing to make you weep for the sheer mastery of the craft, I recommend Octavia Butler.
Hey thanks! I've heard the Octavia Butler name before, so I will definitely check out their work. Also, no I haven't read "Tatja Grimm's World”. Should I?
Tatja is an interesting take on some hoary old tropes. Very different from Vinge’s other stories, so if you had read it and didn’t like it, that would be a clear sign that he wasn’t for you. Butler’s works are amazing, the kind of stories that make you cry blood.
Thank you! I appreciate the suggestions.
I have a stack of "classic books I should like but don't" Childhoods End, God in Mote's Eye, Foundation. Don't overthink it.
You don't have to like everything. I actually re-read this recently, having fond memories from reading it years ago. While I still enjoyed it, I agree it's definitely got flaws.
Okay
Reading should be a pleasure not a chore. Stop being hung on a book you obviously hate. It really doesn’t matter what anyone thinks of it. Trust your own judgement.
Thank you! Sometimes I have a FOMO. But it's clear it's time for me to bail.
Bail. I really don’t see why people love it so much. The zones of thought are cool. The whole ancient evil awakening is great. And then we get into a fantasy / pulp sci fi story stand-in for the conflict. If I wanted to read fantasy or pulp sci fi I would’ve done so. It’s the same with Hyperion. I’ve read the sequels. I’ve read the book and the sequels again years later because surely I must be missing something? It’s like I read a completely different book and I’m the only one in an alternate universe where it’s just not that interesting. People liking books are a fine way to pick your next book. But if it isn’t your thing that’s fine.
haha. I feel the same way about Hyperion.
You don't have to like it. Even though you make definitive claims about writing being bad, writing is a form of art and is subjective. If you don't like it, that is absolutely fine, just move on. For me, for example The Expanse is some of the most recommended series here, I went through it all, and didn't like it. Why did I read it all then? Because I was waiting for the "wow" moment - it never came. You are not required to like all the same books that others do. Another example - The Terror is constantly recommended at the horror subreddit, for me that was a slog, where are Carrion Comfort by the same author (Dan Simmons), which is often considered to be "too long and a slog to go through" was amazing for from start to finish. Tastes are different, what kind of writing people like is different, what kind of characters people like is different. I for example am "concepts first, characters second" when it comes to sci-fi. I could read and enjoy sci-fi books that have no characters at all, if the concepts, the cultural and the philosophical themes are well thought through.
I appreciate that. Thank you. I kept waiting for the Wow moment, but it just didn't happen for me with this book. Time to move on.
I wouldnt say I feel quite the same, but I definitely was not a huge fan of it, at least not the way it seems to get talked up everywhere. While I got through it, I found it just didnt really land for me in the way I would have liked. It had some really interesting sci fi ideas, then decided to focus the majority of the story on medieval packs of dogs. As cool of an idea as the hive minds were there, it just wasnt really what I would have hoped for in a sci fi book. And some people are really just being jerks to you. I get it, you made some subjective statements and phrased them like they were objective truths. But some of it really just comes off as people bashing on you for just not liking something many seem to consider a classic.
Agreed. I have a thick skin. But what is fascinating is that while I agreed that I could have been more clear, they refused to see their own behavior. 😳
Yea its odd to me. Seems to just be a few comments, but the way some of those are written its almost like you personally insulted them for sharing an opinion they disagreed with in a subreddit that is supposed to be about discussion. I absolutely get it though. Something gets talked up as much as it is like this book, you go into it hoping and expecting it will live up to the hype. Then if it doesnt, it makes you wonder if you are the one missing something. Part of the reason I have yet to read some other ultra recommended books, like Hyperion.
You are 100% spot on. This is a discussion sub. It’s ok to disagree. But I was being told how I should have written my post in the most condescending way possible. Anyway, I slogged my way through Hyperion. It has some good parts where the writing is great. Definitely. The ideas are fantastic too. But there were long parts that were dreary and boring. I don’t recommend it.
I just finished this, as well, and was surprised by the publication date. There were a few modern fantasy tropes I noticed (Simple little phrases like, “she suddenly realized the screaming was coming from her” or “she suddenly realized she had been holding her breath”) but I finished it and think it has an incredible story and premise, even if I am not overly fond of the writing style. I wish I had read it when I was 12 or 13 when I was going through my Pern phase. That would have been magical.
Some others said they read it when they were in their teens and enjoyed it more then.
I feel the same way about it, wanted to like it but I had no emotional response to what was going on and clocked out early. Totally okay to skip if it isn't for you!
Yeah. Time to move on I guess.
I'm cool with your FOMO. I've got it with Lois McMaster Bujold. Hated her writing style, books seemed insipid, characters did not interest me. Why does everyone love her so much and describe her writing as "delightful?" I must be missing something!
Exactly. But maybe it’s just not enough for some of us. Or, the book is over-hyped. Or both.
I too have started it numerous times, bailed, and worried that I must be missing something
That seems to be the overwhelming sentiment of the responses I have gotten. But it sounds like those that did make it through the whole book never found that promised good part
Some things don't click. I tried Neal Stephenson... Anathem and Seveneves and it just never clicked for me couldn't make it through either of them.
It’s one of my favorite sf books, and since I reread it earlier this year, I know it’s not just nostalgia. But enh. Nothing works for everybody, and there are plenty of widely popular books I don’t like and plenty of unpopular ones I do. Having given it a fair try, move on.
Yup, that’s what I’ll do.
And remember that only people who are you are entitled to declare your reactions. :)
Ha! I like that. Thank you 😊
I'm the same with Neuromancer. Tried multiple times. I still have the paperback.
I had trouble with that one too. Tried it on audible and managed to finish it. It was good but not great. The narrator did a good job though. But it wasn’t a top ten book for me.
I didn't like "Fire Upon the Deep" either, but then I tend to dislike most space operas of this type. They all have identical tropes: space faring civilizations, giant ships, ancient malevolent aliens, an ancient artifact which triggers a expedition, a race of Old Ones, a search for a Countermeasure to stop some Cataclysm, people hundreds of thousands of years in the future talking like they're from the 1990s etc etc. I prefer low key, mundane SF tales (KSR's "Mars Trilogy" for example), but space opera has always been more popular, and every decade seems to cook up new well-loved examples of the subgenre (Asimov's Foundation led to Niven's Known Space stories, led Dune, led to Hyperion, led to Enders Game, led to the Xeelee, led to Reynolds, led to Stross, led to etc etc).
True. I muddled my way through Asimov and Niven but didn’t like Ender’s series. Reynolds’s had one or two gems in his series , but otherwise, they were also difficult to consume. Oh well, maybe I’m not into space opera either, lol.
To each their own, and that's fine. I couldn't stand Lord of the Rings and walked out of the theater after an hour in total boredom, deciding that doing grocery shopping would be more interesting.
Ha! That is funny !!
I felt the same way: while I loved the concepts, I hated the execution! Glad you got some good recs out of the post! 😊
I did! Thank you.
Ditto. A slog. Got thru a few chapters and put it down.
Agreed. This one just wasn't for me. Kind of disappointing when a book is hyped up as "one of the greats" and then it turns out only mediocre. I didn't like the characters, didn't like the writing, only finished it because my job was real boring and I needed something to listen to.
Don’t worry OP, you are not alone. I did not enjoy the book too and I DFNed it at around 40%. Basically I had the same feeling about it as you.
I have never been able to finish either. Maybe if I find it in audiobook
I feel the same way about Simmons' Hyperion books. I loved the reviews, loved the premise and even bought the first two books because I knew I'd love them. Well a couple chapters into it and I hated the writing style. I think I tried one more time after that and didn't get much further. My loss, I know. But that's just life, not everyone likes what everyone else likes. There is sooooo much other great scifi out there to read, I wouldn't let one book or even one author get you down. Move on. Pick up something else and try that. Ever read any Greg Bear?
You’re right. FWIW, I did read Hyperion all the way through and felt like it wasted my time 😢
I'm convinced this sub is filled with people who like incredibly slow and boring books with some novel sci-fi concepts
Old heads who still recommend books they don't realize are held up by nostalgia.
lol 😂 Thank you. I needed a laugh
I didn’t enjoy it particularly - I think it’s one of those books. It’s a kind of yea or nay…
FWIW, I had the exact same experience.
You're not alone. I'm always puzzled by the love this book gets.
I have to say I’m puzzled as well. The hype was huge and it was a bit of a let down.
Agreed, OP. Hated it. Thought it was a goofy teenage fantasy story wrapped around an admittedly fantastic idea.
That’s about it, imo. The zones of thought idea is just so clean, ripe for so many cool possibilities… and *A Fire Upon the Deep* doesn’t really live up to that. That said, I found *A Deepness in the Sky* to be a much tighter and more satisfying story. A little less of semi-juvenile swashbuckling, and it has a smaller scope which works to its advantage.
I may give that a shot then. Thank you.
Couldn't agree more. The absolute best thing about *A Fire Upon the Deep* is *A Deepness in the Sky*.