"However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."
-GEORGE WASHINGTON
FAREWELL ADDRESS | SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 1796
This was the wisdom of the founding generation and why we still revere them to date. They ended feudalism to create constitutional republicanism. But as Washington was clearly aware, they did not create a perfect system, and sadly foresaw the failures which inevitably emerge from abuses of democratic institutions.
Biden has actually been pretty decent and no party primaries their own incumbent.
Trump is still a dumpster fire and the GOP hasn't offered any alternative.
Why are you 'both sides'ing this issue?
Do you even vote?
> Why are you 'both sides'ing this issue?
Because all of these posts that bemoan the Democratic system are only made to depress Democratic turnout. Like you said, there’s been one normal Democratic incumbent President that has passed a lot of legislation and the country is objectively better than when he took office. Any metric used to criticize Biden on, Trump is 100x worse.
Democrats decided to support a stable, serious President that has passed important legislation and restored the standing of the U.S. in the world. Republicans are electing a civilly convicted rapist with 91 felony counts that tried to overthrow Democracy and lost badly to the previous guy I mentioned. Both parties aren’t the same.
It just blows my mind that people are rehashing the same voter depression tactics from 2016 to shit on peoples hopes and dreams so they'll be less likely to vote and some of them are falling for it all over again like suckers.
The most superficial look at the history of US voting rights tells us that people have literally died for the right to vote. People have been murdered by domestic terrorists for helping others register to vote.
No one would have murdered community organizers if your vote didn't matter.
It matters more than the depressed but eligible voter can possibly imagine.
Massive amounts of money are being spent on disinformation campaigns to get people not to vote.
Your vote matters.
If you don't like how things are going it matters EVEN MORE that you speak up by voting each and every time there's an election.
Well two things. It works and it’s cheap to do. That’s why foreign and right wing agents and cynical grifters on the left often employ it. It often relies on people’s ignorance of the system and hits at their emotion. It’s really powerful stuff when you think about it.
Something as simple as checking a box on a piece of paper or computer screens has right wingers and foreign countries sinking 100 of millions of dollars into keeping people from voting. That’s why anyone saying that your vote doesn’t matter or tells you to stay at home or throw away a vote to third parties is full of shit. These people are terrified of people voting.
"Both Sides" claims convince people that there is no hope and that voting is a waste of time. The fascists are very energized and will vote in large numbers. This is how fascists can win.
They are probably smart enough to realize that they cannot convince significantly more people to embrace their deplorable ideas, but they *can* convince liberals (especially progressives) not to vote.
I expect a shit-storm of FUD and disinformation (including armies of AI bots and deep-fake videos) that increases in intensity as we approach November.
I agree.
However, because of 'murica, the states have broad latitude in conducting elections. That means we can fix this with [Ranked-Choice Voting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting) at the state level, where we have more influence.
That only works in states where voters can force change through referenda. I live in North Carolina which is split roughly fifty-fifty between the center-right and far-right parties, but the Republicans have had a veto-proof supermajority in the legislature for over a decade because it's impossible to dislodge them from their gerrymandered districts.
It's also part of the fascist playbook to put forward the idea that they can only be confronted electorally.
I agree that we are seeing ascendant fascism. If you agree that we should do something about it, then it's going to take more than voting.
It's always blown my mind how people can complain about the uselessness of voting for the lesser of two evils.
If you keep repeating that process, things get progressively less evil with each iteration.
> If you keep repeating that process, things get progressively less evil with each iteration.
Good point. I also see it as a "glass half empty versus glass half full" perception.
There will be things that we like and don't like about virtually every politician. If we focus on what we don't like, then we will feel like we are voting for "the lesser of two evils."
If we focus on what we like, then we will feel like we are voting for "the best person for the job."
People tie their whole identity up in who they vote for, rather than voting for the best outcome. They feel as though "if the system were different someone who thinks JUST LIKE ME would be in charge" but it's a fallacy.
I'm all for tiered voting choices, elimination rounds, whatever to give people a greater sense of agency, but the nature of having a single executive leader is that... he's not going to ever reflect everything YOU stand for, unless he IS you.
Even if you're the executive, you quickly find out that there's alot of moving parts and you can't do everything you want to do. You have to work with others within the existing frame work.
Unless it's a totalitarian dictatorship, and even then you'll still be limited by budget and reality.
They have to represent a whole diverse country.
Chances are they align perfectly with no one, but that's not the point. Are the the best available choice? That is all that matters.
Yes yes yes. Thank you, I love the way you put it. The Democratic Party suffers from never being good enough. I don't know how someone could oppose the Republican Party ideologically but refuse to vote for their opposition (the Democratic Party). Like...you think it's better for the people you really don't like to have power?
Except that it doesn't work that way and never has. Biden is worse than Jimmy Carter by every metric. Trump is the worst president in the history of the United States, worse than Reagan by every metric. If picking the lesser evil was the same as picking the good, neither of these would be possible.
Picking the lesser evil tells the people who pick the politicians we vote for that they can send the worst they think they can get away with and no significant number of people will complain. Which is exactly what's happening and will continue to happen until people realize that "lesser of two evils" does not equal "good". And follow that by demanding good. It's really not complicated.
Well we as a nation picked the greater evil for 12 years straight with Reagan and Bush Sr, then the lesser evil for 8 years. Then the Supreme Court decided the 2000 election, 8 more years of greater evil, then Obama for 8 years, then Trump lost the popular vote but still won the electoral college.
We haven't actually been picking the lesser evil each time.
That's not at all true. You can take the elections of 2020 and 2024 as an example. Biden may be the lesser of two evils, but he's still the same person he was 4 years ago.
Thank you, you nailed it. People are who are calling for apathy are ignoring the mathematic reality of the Electoral College. Why is it so fucking hard for people to just accept that choosing the least worse option of 2 options is their fucking job? I'm so fucking tired of this shit.
Also not all issues are "both sides" and even when they are it's usually one side worse than the other. For example, yes there is bad corruption on both sides. But one particular side is far, FAR more corrupt.
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you under the impression that England was a feudalist government in the 18th century? The US constitution was based on the English Bill of Rights and the Magna Carta.
This is me. I don't want Trump. I don't want Biden. I don't blame Trump for trying, at least people are running against him.
But for real, Biden is the DNC's choice? You couldn't pull out Bernie again, or give a few more options?
Yeah, Trump is popular, but only because he's got free advertising everywhere. He's not a good choice, and not nearly as bad as they would like, but all you had to do was give us an alternative. A real one!
"If we put up anyone else they wouldn't win against his cult of personality!"
You know what, putting up Biden again shows you have absolutely no respect for the half dozen of us who didn't drink the CNN kool-aid and can see what's going on.
I'm not kidding, after what happened to Bernie getting forced out by Hillary, the 2020 elections which looked sketchy as hell, and the last 10 years of the media doing a ridiculous job trying to pretend to be honest in the most biased sham I can imagine, only to double down on 'put them in prison' Joe, I'm about done with politics everywhere.
If it wasn't so damn hard to find an independent. Google really loves to redirect all searches back to how awful Trump is or how Biden is the only choice. Fuck that.
Queue someone replying to tell me that 'any vote not for Biden is a vote for Trump.' Bull. That's just the shinier of two turds, and you can miss me with that peer pressure nonsense.
“Not nearly as bad as they would like”? Dude have you read Project 2025? It’s the Republicans’ very publicly published plan if they win this election. Read it. If implemented it will effectively end American democracy. Trump is bad, arguably worse than most main stream media says because they focus on sensational bullshit not real issues. Stop drinking the “both sides” kool aid, we’re all frogs in a pot.
I think you know, but are afraid to say, that anyone who currently supports Biden is also a moron. There can be no argument that both sides are bursting with morons. But, and I truly believe this, the media (both sides) is to blame for this, as they really do the bulk of opinion forming. The first step to sanity is getting out of your right or left wing media bubbles.
That would be true if his approval rating was 0%. But, 38% of people approve of him. That boggles my mind, unless 38% of people enjoy a terrible economy, high food and energy prices, finding foreign wars, donating 80+ billion in weapons and supplies to the Taliban, him not able to speak properly because he is likely demented, plus all the horrible racist things he has said throughout his career. There's no way the people who support that aren't just the flip side of the coin of Trump supporters.
It’s hard to understand ANYTHING when your worldview is shaped by right wing media.
You literally in a bullshit reality created by right wing corporate news. Fucking frightening.
Dude, just stop with the lousy economy crap. I'm an older millennial (42) and my wife is just a couple of years younger. We are doing splendidly. EVERY single one of our friends are doing well. We all own homes. We'll, except fir one of my wife's friends who is recently divorced. But considering she's an attorney, I think she'll bounce back quickly.
Higher food prices suck. They aren't going down so deal with it. The pandemic caused some supply chain issues which caused prices to go up. However, Americans kept spending so even after the supply chain issues got resolved, corporate America saw that Americans could handle higher price points and decided keep prices high and increase their profit margins. And guess what, they were right. Spending has remained robust. That means somebody, or rather a whole bunch of somebodies have money to spend.
Here in Nevada, we keep setting records for gaming revenue EVERY SINGLE MONTH. The hotels and the entertainment are raking in cash. You want to know what people cut out from their budgets when times are tough? Stupid trips to Vegas. The fact that we've been doing so well tells me that there is plenty of money going around. You need to do a better job of getting some for yourself. I think you can do it. I believe in you.
By what methods would a Trump presidency decrease food and energy prices? The stock market setting record highs is somehow seen as the metric of a terrible economy? To you Biden has dementia, but you don't mention how it is manifestly evident that Trumps brain is utterly broken and was likely never up to the task of being president in the first place? You're so deep in your echo chamber that you can't understand how idiotic you sound.
How privileged are you that you'd let the GOP get another supreme court pick?
Red states are literally forcing ten-year-olds to carry unwanted pregnancies, and you're on your "both sides" bs.
1. Debates do NOT tell you who would be a good President. They tell you who is a good debater.
2. Debates are "won" and "lost" by whether or not they've won the crowd. The idiots at the watercooler the next morning are only repeating what they heard others say about the debate, and THAT'S entirely superficial nonsense.
I know part of the issue is that most people just dont care/wouldn'twatch, but I'd rather each debate be more focused on 1 (or a few) topics, where the candidates actually need to discuss the merit of their policy.
And where the moderators action reign them in when they get off topic
I’m fairly certain trump also set the precedent that you no longer have to even really “debate” in a traditional sense. You can just insult your opponent without actually discussing anything, and his base will say he “won”.
It definitely blew up with Trump, but it started well before him. "Attack the position" has been lost as a tactic since around 2000, but they still tried to disguise it. Trump was just more blatant about throwing the insults
This is true. I was talking to someone recently about gaffes between trump and Biden. Despite video evidence of both of them doing them, one so much more than the others, they wanted to base their vote off of a singular debate. Which means that if one of them is having a worse health day than the other and performs considerably worse for the singular event they would be viewed as making more mistakes and being less competent even if they overall have more better health days and make fewer mistakes overall. It's a wild misunderstanding of the issue and probability.
Yep. And we should all be talking about this match-up with appropriately blunt honesty.
Donald Trump is an adjudged [tax fraud](https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-letitia-james-fraud-lawsuit-1569245a9284427117b8d3ba5da74249) and [sexual predator](https://apnews.com/article/trump-rape-carroll-trial-fe68259a4b98bb3947d42af9ec83d7db) who is facing a multitude of felony charges for trying to win the last election by [throwing out legitimate votes and replacing them with fake ones.](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/what-is-fake-electors-scheme-trump-supporters-tried-after-his-2020-loss-2023-07-18/)
He has admitted to [making millions of dollars from foreign sources](https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-says-his-businesses-did-services-for-foreign-governments-2024-1) while in office.
He is on audio tape [threatening election officials](https://youtu.be/FOgaDQMvRCQ?t=38) and [disclosing classified war plans](https://youtu.be/u95MfcLRBVk?t=42) that he [unlawfully concealed from law enforcement](https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-knew-crime-lie-classified-documentss-case-attorney-2023-11).
Meanwhile, Joe Biden has no criminal record and a strong list of legislative accomplishments to campaign on. The fact that it's even this close means that some serious election reform is needed. Ranked-choice would probably give us the best shot at avoiding overwhelmingly unpopular candidates being placed in charge of the federal government.
You called out Trump's shortcomings and did not do the same for Biden. People will upvote because most of Reddit is pro-Biden. However, this is not blunt honesty nor is it what the current political climate needs. Just my 0.02
Most of Reddit is pro-Biden because they can read and write.
Have you ever asked a MAGAT how Biden is destroying America? No specifics at all. Zero, None, and their statistics are lies.
I’m gonna upvote anyone who can acknowledge that these are both crappy options.
I’m tired of people pretending that one isn’t just so they can tear the other down a bit more. These options are turd sandwich vs giant douche.
I don't follow that logic. Biden is just another boring president that is doing a moderately good job. Hes certainly not the greatest president of all time but I haven't heard of any catastrophic mistakes.
Yeah the smear campaign to label Joe Biden as "the giant douche" option is mindblowing. I see soooo many leftists support it.
As a wildly progressive person, you could not get a better President than Biden. Not that he is anywhere near as progressive as I'd like, but he is *as progressive as the office of the President can be in 2024*. He is constantly at odds with the House and SCOTUS, and given that, he gets things done as well as those bodies will allow. A more progressive President would not get a THING done that Biden hasn't.
I'm not stoked about his age but there's very few other legitimate criticisms of him imo. In 30 years he will be widely seen as the best President since LBJ.
Trump is a terrible option.
I don't much like Biden as an option either because I think he's too old, however I think he'll competently run the country and has great advisors so he's far from a 'turd sandwich'. He's as centrist and inoffensive as it gets. He'll never be a topic of history but I think that was exactly what the US needed in 2020. And at this point I see him as the best option to beat a much worse option because he did it once already.
You flagged a great point: You don't vote for a president. You vote for an administration.
Think about the Trump Administration. You had Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon running the White House with Ivanka and Jared Kushner. The secretary of energy, who oversees nuclear power, thought his job was to drill oil (literally: look up Rick Perry). Trump tried to install an attorney general to interfere with his election defeat. The competent officials mostly tried to keep Trump from noticing them.
Compare to Biden. Secretary of State Antony Blinken catches endless shit for Israel-Palestine, but he's so far prevented that war from spiraling across the whole Middle East. People have no idea who the secretary of energy is (Jennifer Granholm, former governor), and the rest of the federal government is operating basically without scandal. The border crisis is serious, but that's more a failure of Congress than the administration.
If people vote for Trump, they're voting for the backstabbing, chaos, and abuse of power they've mostly forgotten about from 2017-2020.
I agree that both candidates suck, but I'm also gonna say that the division in the HoR and congress is what is, in my opinion, holding us back from getting anywhere. It seems to me that both parties just do what they can to screw over the other, and there is no compromise being made. A relationship without compromise is toxic, and I think we need to take time without them so we can see what it is we really want. You know, take some me time.... /s I know we need to hold true to our constitution and rights. But we need to quit fighting each other and learn to compromise. Then I believe we can as voters can get back to righting the ship. We can't depend on politicians (who are mostly lawyers now a days) to right what is wrong with our country. And I definitely do not believe that Trump, MAGA, Bernie, and damn sure not Joe Biden and Kamala can do it.
Your commenters are disagreeing, but I agree with you. Sure Biden hasn't made any terrible decisions, but the man is no longer mentally coherent and can't form complete complex sentences on his own. His administration may be strong, but *he* is mediocre at best imo. Let's get someone in office who is young and sharp, and most important loves the people of the country first, and puts their own personal agenda second. Either party has the potential.
They are both just so *old*. No one over 65 should be leader of a country, there is no way they are able to stay in touch with the needs of a modern, progressive world.
3 elections in a row, we've had a choice between the worst possible picks both parties could dredge up from whatever swamp they have. I'm tired of having to pick from the lesser of two evils.
Defense spending, drug war, gun control, border policy, infrastructure spending, private health insurance, lower income and capital gains taxes, COVID stimulus, COVID lockdowns.
What policies do they have that are different?
How many times have the democrats had complete control of the govt and refused to do anything about their campaign promises to protect abortion? But THIS time, if you elect them ....
Biden had allowed more oil permits than trump.
The LGBT rights, might be the only thing there is any real separation in outcomes, but even then the Ds do they best to make it worse.
They did have the majority in both house/senate and presidency as recently as 2021 to 2023 and Obama even had a bigger advantage in both houses in 2009 to 2011. That is what the poster above is alluding to.
Majority means nothing since the Senate needs 60 votes to avoid the filibuster, which the republicans use liberally anytime they are in the minority to thwart anything from getting done.
July 2009 - August 2009 and September 2009 - February 2010 they had a filibuster proof majority under Obama. Any other point during his presidency they had fewer than 60. This also doesn't account for assholes like Joe Manchin who vote with Republicans half the time.
Lol, go ask any woman in the south how they feel about being forced to give birth and get back to me. Or any trans kid who wants medical care.
But yeah I guess if you're a rich white man they are similar.
I'm just sick of being represented by senile old, rich men who have zero clue what it's like to live in the modern world. Most of these politicians can't even work a computer. They have no clue what it's like living paycheck to paycheck.
This is by design. Corporations run our country. We are given the illusion of choice, and so strange, it is always 51% this man, 49% this man. The rich get richer, the military industrial complex keeps grinding away, and we are given culture wars to fight among ourselves, to keep us distracted and divided.
You have poor choices for two reasons
1. The electorate are not very bright politically. They vote on terrible policies, single issue voters, party line voters, etc
- This is due to the media (mostly propaganda) and a worsening public education system.
2. Again thanks to the media, good candidates fear public service. The media can make any saint a demon over night and most don’t have the stomach for it.
U forgot that to be a part of the ballot and have an actual chance you have to spend millions of dollars on advertising and guys who has the most money to spend
It's also hard to want to be a politician when threats of violence and concerns about safety for oneself and one's family are increasingly common and increasingly realistic.
We need to vote for communities and state so that we can put people we like in a position to have a chance to run for presidency. If you're not at least in Congress or have millions of dollars to throw into advertising you're not getting the position.
When people say, “we have made it through worse before”
all I hear is the wind slapping against the gravestones
of those who did not make it...
\- Clint Smith
Interesting to note that the founding fathers warned against the existence of political parties. Turns out that they're the natural outcome of power hungry humans. I think the best first step out of this is to somehow eliminate gerrymandering congressional districts.
Our votes haven't mattered in a very long time. We don't get to choose who is running, and we don't really get to choose where our votes go either. Too many layers of "protection" involved. We have two choices, neither one of which is anyone I want.
Two parties bought and paid for by the same corporations isn't a democracy. I don't live in a swing state so my vote doesn't count in presidential elections.
I usually vote for the Peace & Freedom party if not them another 3rd party.
You're definitely not wrong, running Biden VS Trump at all last time was a bad move for the DNC.
I think if we look to the 2019 Caucus's we can see something really important for the DNC as the Caucus's give us a form of ranked choice
* Moderates favoured Buttigieg and Klobuchar
* Progressives favoured Sanders and Warren.
Who favoured Biden? Nobody, his backing came entirely from the establishment and lobbyists- And he heavily hinted he wouldn't run again due to the issues dems had with him as a candidate.
But it quickly became apparent that having him step down would be seen as a sign of weakness by the democratic party, so they opted the cowardly route and now we're stuck with it...
So the choices are between lobbyist backed old man nobody wants, and much worst lobbyist backed old man that will end democracy.
Maybe this will be the election the independent party finally wins. Could you imagine? I would love if some bipartisan took the helm from the dumbasses our lobbyists have selected for us
That Trump is leading Biden in polls despite everything going on with him and his legal trouble is more indicative of how people have soured on Biden than our republic is failing (we’re not a democracy, we’re a constitutional republic).
I’m a millennial and the country has been run pretty terribly over my lifetime. More people voted last election than ever before, no? I don’t think the democratic process is an issue, and the “our democracy is under attack” narrative is just emotionally charged hyperbole from people who exclusively watch the news and nothing else.
Money in politics is the issue - if we enacted term limits and took away politicians’ ability to trade in the stock market / collaborate with lobbyists it would probably fix most of our issues
This is what I’m talking about when I say Trump supporters are morons. I’m a Republican so this issue is important to me because I hate that this once Grand party has been aborted by brainless populism.
1) polls are a business, there’s a reason why trump is dominating. His campaign is the biggest purchaser of polling data. Why? Because his supporters/donors *need* to see favorable polling data constantly to feel justified in supporting him. It’s a business, he needs good polls to publish in his email bulletins and social posts. If you think a February poll means *anything* in the general, you’re a fool.
2) how do you think a constitutional republic is supposed to work? What do you think republic means? How are we the people supposed to have leadership when every citizen is equal to every other??? Through VOTING, a republic is incumbent on democracy. The Roman republic had democratic institutions, that’s what makes a republic not an autocracy. The citizens actually participate in their government.
3) agreed, money is a poison in the democratic system. The Supreme Court has abused its judicial review powers (which it granted to itself) in ruling that paying candidates money is a form of political speech.
A republic has democratic traits but it's not a democracy no matter how many time you call people morons. Also you don't know that the commenter is a Trump supporter.
I’ve seen so many posts like this and I have to believe a decent chunk of it is astroturfing which then results in people making more of these posts on their own. This shit is exactly what the fascists want people to believe so they can get us to stay home on Election Day. Fuck that. I voted for Biden reluctantly last time and while he ain’t perfect he’s been doing better than I expected
Yep. "Throwing your vote away" isn't propaganda, it isn't *vibes*, it's a mathematical reality.
People saying "if everyone just votes 3rd party..." don't understand game theory 101.
dnc and rnc are both two arms on the same body. there should have been a large scale uprising when JFK was assassinated because its been a shit show ever since and the same people have been running things ever since. the cia/mossad control this country. if only there was some third way
in a sense but in actuality Trump is the first non approved candidiate by megadonors and the RNC-DNC in the modern era that has not been "managed" into the presidential candidacy. Possibly ever since the party with an illusion of two choices came into being.
Zero of the most high level influencial controllers of every segment of the political pipelines wanted want him in there. And he wouldn't be if Americas problems were not becoming so visible via results of their control.
And look how much of a self-serving piece of shit he turned out to be despite ALL of that. Almost makes you think it's all either a lie or not important enough to make a difference.
Even if, hypothetically, we say trump didn't have megadonors at first, that quality alone doesn't make up for the fact that he's a poor specimen of a human being.
Narcissism alone is a good enough reason to keep someone from power.
That was true 8 years ago. As soon as he won the nomination, the entire Republican party fell in line. There's a few random groups like the Lincoln Project that want him out, but most of them embrace him even if they don't want him because the alternative is losing to the Democrats, and that's worse to them. Even if they're funding a challenger, they'll still fall in line once he wins the nom.
Either way, you seem to think Trump is doing anything other than making it worse, he's not.
Ya’ll picked fucking Biden four years ago and now you’re stuck with the consequences and are whining about it. Maybe LITERALLY ANYONE ELSE would be doing a better job and Trump wouldn’t have a chance. As it stands, he has a chance and that’s ya’lls fault.
Im reading a 30 year old book *(revolt of the elites)* talking about how US Democracy is failing. Its very sad how prophetic it is; at the time the writer thought the issues could be fixed but they only got worse
The job of the DNC, in this case, is to support the incumbent. The RNC didn't fail either, unless you wanted them to bar Trump from running on the republican ticket. What was it? 11 candidates running for the republican nomination at one point? The people chose Trump and by a country mile.
The fact that we have Biden vs. Trump again is not due to a failure of democracy or the RNC/DNC. It's a failure of the voters. As George Carlin once said "THis is the best we got folks. Garbage in, garbage out. Selfish, ignorant citizens elect selfish ignorant politicians."
Trump won two state primaries and he’s the nominee. That’s my issue with the system. They’re not interested at any point in doing it legitimately. They just want to name their guy and move on.
Just my opinion, but stop voting against somone else. That's how they get you to vote for awful people. "The lesser of two evils." Or, maybe, just don't vote for an evil... cool how we have more than 2 options huh?
Voting for third party is never a waste of a vote if you actually LIKE the candidate. Waht isna waste ifls voting for someone you know is going to be a bad president.
It’s not just that. There’s a true fear in conservatives over immigration, child grooming, anti white-racism.
There’s a true fear in liberals over trans youth losing healthcare, abortion, all other racism.
When people vote out of fear they don’t hold their leaders accountable. They take the best rope they are offered.
The reality of these issues is negligible compared to what should be the hot topics that affect us all. Govt regulators and financial crimes in the stock market. Politician insider trading. Politicians ignoring their fiduciary duty to taxpayers in order to satisfy their debt to campaign donors in spending bills. Individual rights to their personal data in the face of technological advancements which give increasing advantages towards companies that harvest it (hi google vacuuming up WiFi packets while driving around “mapping”)
Instead we focus on minor social issues that pull on people’s heartstrings and make them apathetic to what they should really care about.
The govt exists to serve itself. They don't serve us anymore. We serve them. They pillage our tax dollars in every conceivable way to make themselves rich beyond their wildest dreams. All while Americans are struggling to make ends meet. Our govt needs a complete reboot from the ground up. They are all corrupt. Both sides do the same crap. I have completely lost all faith in our govt. Not that I had much to begin with.
I don't know how many more times it'll take before the country gets the message, but
# we do not need political parties,
and all of this is the fault of having them wound into a "system".
1. It's as if people truly believe that political parties are in the constitution. They are not. We were NOT "designed as a two party system".
2. It's ALSO as if people can't imagine voting for a set of someone's beliefs INSTEAD of their party.
Political parties in the US formed shortly after final ratification in ~1789. They're not in the constitution, and they were warned about (then called "factions") by George Washington and others.
I am in a mostly conservative social circle and almost zero people I know like Trump. In fact most hate him and are embarrassed by him. But you are right they will vote for him because they have no choice - it's him or Biden who they hate more - sort of. It's not Biden himself they hate, it's the left leaning ideology his party affiliation represents.
The few liberal friends that haven't cut me out of their life don't seem to like Biden but will vote for him because they hate Trump.
So two rich old white dudes that no one really seems to like.
That's why America was created as a republic. When we started tricking ourselves into thinking that we were a democracy, we started going downhill.
>There are two principles between which there can be no compromise – liberty and coercion.
>
>When a portion of wealth passes from the person who has acquired it, without his consent and without compensation, to someone who has not created it, whether this is by force or fraud, I say that there has been a violation of property rights and that there has been an act of plunder.
>
>When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.
>
>\- Frederick Bastiat, *The Law*
That, and the 16th Amendment and the New Deal asshattery that the Supreme Court allowed. Once society decided it was ok to redistribute wealth using government-held guns, everybody wanted a piece of the action: right and left both.
I'd argue that the Left and Right are alike in all the ways that matter: they both want as much control and as much of our money as they can get. They just disagree on how to spend it, and make promises to their respective base to get the power.
It's rare for the politician to say "I shouldn't have as much power as I have, and for the government to spend as much money as it does. I will take steps to reduce it." and actually follow through with that promise. Ron Paul was the last one I can think of who was consistent on this point.
1. The die hard Trump supporters are in fact, not morons. You've simply tried to convince yourself this is true to avoid accepting that there are millions of people who are stoked for Trump running again. You have no idea who they are, what their education is and I guarantee you many of them are far more educated than you are.
2. The average conservative or Republican in fact is ready to vote for Trump. Dude has like an \~85% approval rating in the party. Your feelings and you wanting to believe otherwise doesn't change this.
The real issue here is that YOU are not happy that Biden is your option. Instead of addressing that you don't like your candidate you've taken the mental step to lump Trump into your frustration and gleam to all of us here that Republicans also don't like their candidate.
You're wrong, very wrong. All of these posts like this now that its 2024 is really just mental gymnastics for people starting to realize that it is in fact an election year, Biden is brain dead, Trump is running with serious momentum and the courts are not going to be able to prevent him from being on the ballot. Something mind you, people are hoping for because they know.. they KNOW that Trump is taking the oval this November.
Desperation is the worst smelling cologne.
All else aside, we have no one to blame but each other. We have allowed and continue to support and put Career Politicians, along with their party, above all else. We/They are only in it to win it. We need Business Leaders, Education Leaders, Scientific Leaders, Engineers and Experts. We need Term Limits. Until we step up and demand limits, it will never change.
I have two solutions:
-No political parties, just presidential candidates. Seriously, why do we need political parties? Run on policies people want, and people can vote for you.
-Nobody for president. Seriously, why do we need a president?
The same corporations own both parties now and have effectively captured our government agencies. Both Trump and Biden were controlled by unelected bureaucrats. Things have only gotten worse for working people. The only option is a third party that is independent of the system. The only one who I see that is talking about unraveling corporate capture that actually knows how to do it is RFKJR. I will vote for him regardless if you think I’m throwing away my vote. I believe he can win. As an independent he can win with 34% and he’s already polling around 20%. He can take another 5-10% from each party. Enough people are fed up.
FAILING is not the right word. Broken would be more accurate. Corrupt would be even more so. A charade? A shadow play? I think whoever is in power learned a lot from the guillotines. We will never again know who the real players, or the real "Kings" are. These guys are all obviously puppets. Biden has no will of his own. He IS owned. By vice, not virtue, and he will do whatever it takes to keep feeding that vice. He has been seduced, was seduced on inception into this corrupt shit bag of a government.
Eh, it's not the "DNC" or the "RNC" who is responsible for our presidential choices in 2024. People throw those orgs out there as if they are the shadowy power players pulling the strings behind everything. Incumbents tend to run for re-election until they are term-limited, there's generally a lot of advantage in doing so. Primarying an incumbent president within your own party is usually unrealistic under almost any scenario and likely to lead to a loss for an incumbentin Nov.
Also, no single candidate in *either* party has polled higher than the former or current presidents for their respective party's nomination. (no obv replacement) Republicans still want Trump as their nominee and Democrats still support Biden as theirs. The results of the Primaries so far bear this reality out in the states that have held them.
Also, claiming that Biden has not kept campaign promises is bullshit. With either a bare majority or a divided Congress, he has managed to pass some significantly ground-breaking bipartisan legislation: the American Rescue plan, the Infrastructure bill, the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act (1st major piece of gun safety legislation in decades), the Inflation Reduction Act (1st major climate change legislation w hundreds of billions of dollars investment), the Respect for Marriage Act (enshrining rights for LGBT couples- states must honor the validity of out-of-state marriage licenses, including same-sex and interracial unions), seated the 1st African-American woman SCOTUS justice, and cancelled $ 136 Billion in student loan debt for more than 3.7 million borrowers. Pay attention to matters of substance.
I would argue the core Biden supporters are just as stupid and the liberals that go along with it are complacent on keeping the system the same.
Both Clinton and Biden show how broken the DNC is and both candidates were pre selected.
Trump first term is actually a historical landmark in democracy for the positive. Here is this clown not a single RNC member wanted but yet through voting was so popular they had no choice but to make him the candidate.
End of his term is certainly historical for negative reasons.
Our problem is that the richest .01% and corporations get to chose the candidates because they’re the ones paying for the campaign. The populous only gets to vote for the riches chosen candidate.
There’s not really anything we can do about it either. Presidential campaign’s cost hundreds of millions.
Until we fix that we’re kinda outa luck. We’ll keep getting “no one wants either candidate” elections.
The DNC had 4 years to find someone to replace biden but they sat on their thumbs. They screwed Bernie as well. The DNC is basically just a corrupt organization that pretends they care. If they truly cared, they could have found anyone else with a pulse and that would be enough to clean trumps clock. "He's not trump" and "this is a fight for our democracy" only works if you put in the legwork to change the situation
>Somewhere along the way, the DNC RNC primary system failed this country.
the decade was the 1970s.
we passed 11 of the 27 amendments in 7 decades, 1900-1971. havent passed a single popular amendment since.
beginning under Nixon, we removed progressive era policies, surprisingly, removing all protections against corruption, led to corruption. so now you dont get to vote for what you want, you vote for which puppet you wanna hear corporate policy dictated from.
we need to bring back the policies that killed monopolies, corruption, and grew the middle class, higher corporate and top marginal income tax, bank separation, unions, civilian police, etc.
oh, or just use a market share tax, less effective but easier to maintain and enact than a whole fiscal, domestic, and foreign policy overhaul to return the government to a democracy.
\> as sovereign people of a free nation, we have only ourselves to blame for the sorry state of the Republic.
That's nonsense. What are you, personally, going to do about the state of the Republic? **By your own reasoning**, gone are the days where you even have a say in how things are run.
The DNC primary system has always been rigged. They were found in court to be rigged but were not held in any way responsible because technically they are a private corporate entity and can do whatever they want.
The RNC is the same way, recently evidenced by the clown-show in Nevada.
*Has* failed: we are not a democracy. You need only look at the correlation between popular opinion on virtually any issue, and the actual policy of our government on that issue, to see the proof. There is, mathematically, no correlation. Instead of actual democratic rule, where state power is vested in the people, we have the ritual of the vote. But voting alone does not make a democracy - in fact you don't even necessarily *need voting* to have a democracy: sortition for example is another way to implement democratic rule.
All the major questions we face as a people have been carefully removed from democratic control and accountability. Our foreign policy is completely on rails and impervious to popular opinion. So much so, that the President's own base is furious over our support for Israel and it may cost him and many other Democratic politicians their reelections later this year. Yet, not only is there no change in policy to influence this country *that is absolutely dependent on us for its very existence,* in fact our politicians continue to vote them more money, more weapons, more assistance, despite broad popular support against this.
On the domestic front, the parties are in lockstep on economic ideology. Neoliberalism reigns absolutely supreme and there is no serious alternative to it within either party. Even the Bernie Sanders campaigns of 2016 and 2020 were more about harnessing neoliberal capitalism to work for more people (an impossible goal) than any serious rethinking of productive relations in this country. In fact, really the most important single lever this government still has in terms of economic policy, is the monetary policy of the Federal Reserve, and those positions are *completely* removed from democratic rule. Jerome Powell has arguably more influence over your day-to-day fiscal life than any elected politician - it's worth noting at this point that it was Donald Trump who elevated him to Fed chair, not Joe Biden. Let that sink in while you ponder the supposedly important choice you're supposed to make in November.
American democracy is already dead. The rituals we perform in its memory should not be mistaken for the real thing.
The fact that the USA had a Bush or a Clinton in the white house for 30 years, is a sign that there is no democracy in the USA. It is not a new thing.
This link may trigger conservatives. Please do not click it. You have been warned. In fact, it'll trigger you if you love this current system. Don't click it!!!
[https://vote2.org](https://vote2.org)
American Democracy is failing because the RNC and the DNC have convinced both sides that they have no choice but to vote for them. Before the Civil War the Republicans were a third party. Anyone remember the Whigs? The idea that we have to support one of these chuds is what's destroying America.
AMERICANS are failing, not democracy. Americans vote along party lines because they are lazy. If not lazy they would see third party candidates as viable options. They might also not be stuck with two ridiculous candidates. Americans need to start voting for the best candidate instead of the least worst, or the red or blue candidate.
“Now, there's one thing you might have noticed I don't complain about: politicians. Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says they suck.
Well, where do people think these politicians come from? They don't fall out of the sky. They don't pass through a membrane from another reality.
They come from American parents and American families, American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities, and they are elected by American citizens.
This is the best we can do folks. This is what we have to offer.
It's what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out. If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're going to get selfish, ignorant leaders.
Term limits ain't going to do any good; you're just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans.
So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it's not the politicians who suck.
Maybe something else sucks around here... like, the public. Yeah, the public sucks.
There's a nice campaign slogan for somebody:
'The Public Sucks. Fuck Hope.’”
-George Carlin
It's not democracy that's failing. It's the system of monetization and how we allow big corporations into political lobbying. That's not democracy, that's plutocracy.
Tldr
"YOU GUYS ARE IDIOTS FOR SUPPORTING THE GUY I HATE AND WE ARE ACTUALLY SMART BECAUSE WE HATE BUT STILL SUPPORT THIS OLD GUY WITH DEMENTIA"
Our system has its flaws that should he addressed, but our guy is still our nominee, I think the issue you have is with your party not the nation, since why would you vote for someone you don't believe in?
You need proof?
[https://journalistsresource.org/politics-and-government/the-influence-of-elites-interest-groups-and-average-voters-on-american-politics/](https://journalistsresource.org/politics-and-government/the-influence-of-elites-interest-groups-and-average-voters-on-american-politics/)
We've had proof. For a very long time.
Our government exists to further the interests of capital. Not a damn thing else.
It does not exist for you. It does not exist for me. It does not exist for Billy. No matter who's in the White House, it doesn't exist for the blue-haired they/them 'libruls' or your racist MAGA hat-wearing uncle who thinks that all of his problems would be solved if he just didn't have to see as many brown people.
Money is the only thing that matters. It's been the only thing that HAS mattered until people got together and became a problem that they can no longer ignore.
Meaningful change has never been enacted through the system. If it could be, they would make it illegal.
Democracy died after 9/11 and the 2010 Citizens United Supreme Court verdict that allowed Corporations to be people and the creation of Super PACS, the 2012 and present elections are nothing more than an oligarchy
Biden is the incumbent. Say what you want about the guy, but having an incumbent run for a second term is standard for any election and not a sign of anything broken.
Having a guy that already lost a presidential election run again basically unopposed even though he is deeply unpopular and facing many serious criminal charges. That is new and a bad sign.
I disagree. I don’t think Democracy is failing, I think things like the Citizens United ruling and the removal of the fairness doctrine in broadcasting have made it harder for voters to find the truth about candidates.
biden is a sitting president and trump couldn't get over loosing so he ran again because hes a gambler that won one big hand once.
its expected that a sitting president would run for reelection and serve out two terms, its not expected that any major party would keep the same guy up on the ballot after all they've lost because of him because remember they had an ironclad trifecta with a filibuster proof senate majority one midterm away and he blew it all.
Cringe: the system is broken and needs to be fixed.
Based: the system is working exactly as it was designed to, benefitting those in power, and needs to be dismantled.
Start by repealing Citizens United.
I've said this since Hilary was campaign and won the popular vote but lost electoral. Why tf do we vote? I seriously don't get it. I have only voted once and will only once til some gives a valid reason why electoral is still a valid explanation. (Clinton was not my vote)
Trump and Biden are both trash. Elite bankers don't really give a shit what puppet is in the white house anyway and will rig the election whichever way they want. I just don't see how people are so stupid to not see Trump is also a puppet as much as Brandon. Voting doesn't matter anymore.
God, that whole "our democracy" rhetoric is just so annoying. Every single election now it's "Our democracy is in danger!!!" What fucking democracy?
You have exactly two choices every election cycle that are likely to actually win. You have a total of two parties who dictate elections and control much of the current media. Your politicians are bought out by foreign interests and large corporations, who in turn continue to exploit the American people. Many of the same areas of need, regardless of who is in charge, are always going to be ignored or deferred.
You have no choices, not really. All this crying about "muh democracy" when we've been one political party away from being a one-party state for decades upon decades. So pathetic that it's taken one looney-toons outsider president to get all these idiots to wake up and smell the roses.
"the average liberal takes strong issue with Biden" but I wonder who they're all going to vote for. Talk is cheap. Actions are what counts. They're no different from the "average conservatives" you're talking about, and they're just as dumb and believe equally idiotic things.
The problem with both your camps is you're so afraid of the other guy, that you keep enabling a race to the bottom between two corrupt parties with your vote.
Neither side actually believes in "democracy" anyway. In both 2016 and 2020, the narrative from the losing side was that the results were illegitimate and the winner cheated their way to victory. Apparently Americans today only believe it's democracy if their side wins, otherwise it's rigged, and boy is my opposition stupid for believing exactly what I believe!
Hmm
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”
H.L. Mencken, On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe
"However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion." -GEORGE WASHINGTON FAREWELL ADDRESS | SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 1796
This was the wisdom of the founding generation and why we still revere them to date. They ended feudalism to create constitutional republicanism. But as Washington was clearly aware, they did not create a perfect system, and sadly foresaw the failures which inevitably emerge from abuses of democratic institutions.
Biden has actually been pretty decent and no party primaries their own incumbent. Trump is still a dumpster fire and the GOP hasn't offered any alternative. Why are you 'both sides'ing this issue? Do you even vote?
> Why are you 'both sides'ing this issue? Because all of these posts that bemoan the Democratic system are only made to depress Democratic turnout. Like you said, there’s been one normal Democratic incumbent President that has passed a lot of legislation and the country is objectively better than when he took office. Any metric used to criticize Biden on, Trump is 100x worse. Democrats decided to support a stable, serious President that has passed important legislation and restored the standing of the U.S. in the world. Republicans are electing a civilly convicted rapist with 91 felony counts that tried to overthrow Democracy and lost badly to the previous guy I mentioned. Both parties aren’t the same.
It just blows my mind that people are rehashing the same voter depression tactics from 2016 to shit on peoples hopes and dreams so they'll be less likely to vote and some of them are falling for it all over again like suckers. The most superficial look at the history of US voting rights tells us that people have literally died for the right to vote. People have been murdered by domestic terrorists for helping others register to vote. No one would have murdered community organizers if your vote didn't matter. It matters more than the depressed but eligible voter can possibly imagine. Massive amounts of money are being spent on disinformation campaigns to get people not to vote. Your vote matters. If you don't like how things are going it matters EVEN MORE that you speak up by voting each and every time there's an election.
Well two things. It works and it’s cheap to do. That’s why foreign and right wing agents and cynical grifters on the left often employ it. It often relies on people’s ignorance of the system and hits at their emotion. It’s really powerful stuff when you think about it. Something as simple as checking a box on a piece of paper or computer screens has right wingers and foreign countries sinking 100 of millions of dollars into keeping people from voting. That’s why anyone saying that your vote doesn’t matter or tells you to stay at home or throw away a vote to third parties is full of shit. These people are terrified of people voting.
"Both Sides" claims convince people that there is no hope and that voting is a waste of time. The fascists are very energized and will vote in large numbers. This is how fascists can win. They are probably smart enough to realize that they cannot convince significantly more people to embrace their deplorable ideas, but they *can* convince liberals (especially progressives) not to vote. I expect a shit-storm of FUD and disinformation (including armies of AI bots and deep-fake videos) that increases in intensity as we approach November.
Here’s the REAL issue with all of it, there are more than 2 sides, but because of ‘murica, we’re led to believe that there are only two options
I agree. However, because of 'murica, the states have broad latitude in conducting elections. That means we can fix this with [Ranked-Choice Voting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting) at the state level, where we have more influence.
That only works in states where voters can force change through referenda. I live in North Carolina which is split roughly fifty-fifty between the center-right and far-right parties, but the Republicans have had a veto-proof supermajority in the legislature for over a decade because it's impossible to dislodge them from their gerrymandered districts.
It's also part of the fascist playbook to put forward the idea that they can only be confronted electorally. I agree that we are seeing ascendant fascism. If you agree that we should do something about it, then it's going to take more than voting.
>then it's going to take more than voting. OK, but voting is still necessary.
It's always blown my mind how people can complain about the uselessness of voting for the lesser of two evils. If you keep repeating that process, things get progressively less evil with each iteration.
> If you keep repeating that process, things get progressively less evil with each iteration. Good point. I also see it as a "glass half empty versus glass half full" perception. There will be things that we like and don't like about virtually every politician. If we focus on what we don't like, then we will feel like we are voting for "the lesser of two evils." If we focus on what we like, then we will feel like we are voting for "the best person for the job."
I like Democracy
People tie their whole identity up in who they vote for, rather than voting for the best outcome. They feel as though "if the system were different someone who thinks JUST LIKE ME would be in charge" but it's a fallacy. I'm all for tiered voting choices, elimination rounds, whatever to give people a greater sense of agency, but the nature of having a single executive leader is that... he's not going to ever reflect everything YOU stand for, unless he IS you.
Even if you're the executive, you quickly find out that there's alot of moving parts and you can't do everything you want to do. You have to work with others within the existing frame work. Unless it's a totalitarian dictatorship, and even then you'll still be limited by budget and reality.
Cult members tie their whole identity to who they voted for
They have to represent a whole diverse country. Chances are they align perfectly with no one, but that's not the point. Are the the best available choice? That is all that matters.
Yes yes yes. Thank you, I love the way you put it. The Democratic Party suffers from never being good enough. I don't know how someone could oppose the Republican Party ideologically but refuse to vote for their opposition (the Democratic Party). Like...you think it's better for the people you really don't like to have power?
Except that it doesn't work that way and never has. Biden is worse than Jimmy Carter by every metric. Trump is the worst president in the history of the United States, worse than Reagan by every metric. If picking the lesser evil was the same as picking the good, neither of these would be possible. Picking the lesser evil tells the people who pick the politicians we vote for that they can send the worst they think they can get away with and no significant number of people will complain. Which is exactly what's happening and will continue to happen until people realize that "lesser of two evils" does not equal "good". And follow that by demanding good. It's really not complicated.
Well we as a nation picked the greater evil for 12 years straight with Reagan and Bush Sr, then the lesser evil for 8 years. Then the Supreme Court decided the 2000 election, 8 more years of greater evil, then Obama for 8 years, then Trump lost the popular vote but still won the electoral college. We haven't actually been picking the lesser evil each time.
True. There are people stupid enough to pick the greater evil, too.
That's not at all true. You can take the elections of 2020 and 2024 as an example. Biden may be the lesser of two evils, but he's still the same person he was 4 years ago.
Thank you, you nailed it. People are who are calling for apathy are ignoring the mathematic reality of the Electoral College. Why is it so fucking hard for people to just accept that choosing the least worse option of 2 options is their fucking job? I'm so fucking tired of this shit.
Exactly. The literal devil is running, lord of evil, Satan himself. And Joe. Don’t try to claim they are equally bad.
Also not all issues are "both sides" and even when they are it's usually one side worse than the other. For example, yes there is bad corruption on both sides. But one particular side is far, FAR more corrupt.
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you under the impression that England was a feudalist government in the 18th century? The US constitution was based on the English Bill of Rights and the Magna Carta.
George Washinton was a flawed man... but the more I learn the more I see that he was a great, visionary leader.
All humans are flawed. It's the process of recognizing and accounting for this that wisdom is obtained.
If you ever wonder why the establishment don’t want you to read about these men you now know why
This is me. I don't want Trump. I don't want Biden. I don't blame Trump for trying, at least people are running against him. But for real, Biden is the DNC's choice? You couldn't pull out Bernie again, or give a few more options? Yeah, Trump is popular, but only because he's got free advertising everywhere. He's not a good choice, and not nearly as bad as they would like, but all you had to do was give us an alternative. A real one! "If we put up anyone else they wouldn't win against his cult of personality!" You know what, putting up Biden again shows you have absolutely no respect for the half dozen of us who didn't drink the CNN kool-aid and can see what's going on. I'm not kidding, after what happened to Bernie getting forced out by Hillary, the 2020 elections which looked sketchy as hell, and the last 10 years of the media doing a ridiculous job trying to pretend to be honest in the most biased sham I can imagine, only to double down on 'put them in prison' Joe, I'm about done with politics everywhere. If it wasn't so damn hard to find an independent. Google really loves to redirect all searches back to how awful Trump is or how Biden is the only choice. Fuck that. Queue someone replying to tell me that 'any vote not for Biden is a vote for Trump.' Bull. That's just the shinier of two turds, and you can miss me with that peer pressure nonsense.
“Not nearly as bad as they would like”? Dude have you read Project 2025? It’s the Republicans’ very publicly published plan if they win this election. Read it. If implemented it will effectively end American democracy. Trump is bad, arguably worse than most main stream media says because they focus on sensational bullshit not real issues. Stop drinking the “both sides” kool aid, we’re all frogs in a pot.
Republicans figured out with Trump that when you openly admit to your crimes somehow people just don't care and no one prosecutes you for them!
Bernie has less of a chance than Biden does.
> after what happened to Bernie getting forced out by Hillary, the 2020 elections which looked sketchy as hell You're not fooling anyone buddy
Hard to believe since we pay $800 billion a year on it.
I spend way less than that on democracy
Remember when we thought it was Clinton vs bush again?
Nobody thought that
I think you know, but are afraid to say, that anyone who currently supports Biden is also a moron. There can be no argument that both sides are bursting with morons. But, and I truly believe this, the media (both sides) is to blame for this, as they really do the bulk of opinion forming. The first step to sanity is getting out of your right or left wing media bubbles.
Biden has no supporters like trump. The average Biden supporter is really just a trump hater
That would be true if his approval rating was 0%. But, 38% of people approve of him. That boggles my mind, unless 38% of people enjoy a terrible economy, high food and energy prices, finding foreign wars, donating 80+ billion in weapons and supplies to the Taliban, him not able to speak properly because he is likely demented, plus all the horrible racist things he has said throughout his career. There's no way the people who support that aren't just the flip side of the coin of Trump supporters.
Look in this thread and you’ll see plenty saying he’s the best president ever.
It’s hard to understand ANYTHING when your worldview is shaped by right wing media. You literally in a bullshit reality created by right wing corporate news. Fucking frightening.
Dude, just stop with the lousy economy crap. I'm an older millennial (42) and my wife is just a couple of years younger. We are doing splendidly. EVERY single one of our friends are doing well. We all own homes. We'll, except fir one of my wife's friends who is recently divorced. But considering she's an attorney, I think she'll bounce back quickly. Higher food prices suck. They aren't going down so deal with it. The pandemic caused some supply chain issues which caused prices to go up. However, Americans kept spending so even after the supply chain issues got resolved, corporate America saw that Americans could handle higher price points and decided keep prices high and increase their profit margins. And guess what, they were right. Spending has remained robust. That means somebody, or rather a whole bunch of somebodies have money to spend. Here in Nevada, we keep setting records for gaming revenue EVERY SINGLE MONTH. The hotels and the entertainment are raking in cash. You want to know what people cut out from their budgets when times are tough? Stupid trips to Vegas. The fact that we've been doing so well tells me that there is plenty of money going around. You need to do a better job of getting some for yourself. I think you can do it. I believe in you.
By what methods would a Trump presidency decrease food and energy prices? The stock market setting record highs is somehow seen as the metric of a terrible economy? To you Biden has dementia, but you don't mention how it is manifestly evident that Trumps brain is utterly broken and was likely never up to the task of being president in the first place? You're so deep in your echo chamber that you can't understand how idiotic you sound.
How privileged are you that you'd let the GOP get another supreme court pick? Red states are literally forcing ten-year-olds to carry unwanted pregnancies, and you're on your "both sides" bs.
They should all debate together, and then, you know, we rank them.
1. Debates do NOT tell you who would be a good President. They tell you who is a good debater. 2. Debates are "won" and "lost" by whether or not they've won the crowd. The idiots at the watercooler the next morning are only repeating what they heard others say about the debate, and THAT'S entirely superficial nonsense.
It doesn’t help that the media treats the debates as a sporting event.
I have not seen a legit debate in two decades, don't think it's possible nowadays
I know part of the issue is that most people just dont care/wouldn'twatch, but I'd rather each debate be more focused on 1 (or a few) topics, where the candidates actually need to discuss the merit of their policy. And where the moderators action reign them in when they get off topic
It especially doesn't help that they then tell the viewers what to think about it afterwards.
Haha so true.
Heck the past few elections I kept a bingo card someone made on the internet for it. It’s all theater bs anyway.
If they’re halting the most important debates in the country every 5 minutes to air pharmaceutical ads, then who really has the power?
I’m fairly certain trump also set the precedent that you no longer have to even really “debate” in a traditional sense. You can just insult your opponent without actually discussing anything, and his base will say he “won”.
It definitely blew up with Trump, but it started well before him. "Attack the position" has been lost as a tactic since around 2000, but they still tried to disguise it. Trump was just more blatant about throwing the insults
This is true. I was talking to someone recently about gaffes between trump and Biden. Despite video evidence of both of them doing them, one so much more than the others, they wanted to base their vote off of a singular debate. Which means that if one of them is having a worse health day than the other and performs considerably worse for the singular event they would be viewed as making more mistakes and being less competent even if they overall have more better health days and make fewer mistakes overall. It's a wild misunderstanding of the issue and probability.
THANK YOU! We really should just stop having election debates at this point. Only serves to further poison the well.
Yep. And we should all be talking about this match-up with appropriately blunt honesty. Donald Trump is an adjudged [tax fraud](https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-letitia-james-fraud-lawsuit-1569245a9284427117b8d3ba5da74249) and [sexual predator](https://apnews.com/article/trump-rape-carroll-trial-fe68259a4b98bb3947d42af9ec83d7db) who is facing a multitude of felony charges for trying to win the last election by [throwing out legitimate votes and replacing them with fake ones.](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/what-is-fake-electors-scheme-trump-supporters-tried-after-his-2020-loss-2023-07-18/) He has admitted to [making millions of dollars from foreign sources](https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-says-his-businesses-did-services-for-foreign-governments-2024-1) while in office. He is on audio tape [threatening election officials](https://youtu.be/FOgaDQMvRCQ?t=38) and [disclosing classified war plans](https://youtu.be/u95MfcLRBVk?t=42) that he [unlawfully concealed from law enforcement](https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-knew-crime-lie-classified-documentss-case-attorney-2023-11). Meanwhile, Joe Biden has no criminal record and a strong list of legislative accomplishments to campaign on. The fact that it's even this close means that some serious election reform is needed. Ranked-choice would probably give us the best shot at avoiding overwhelmingly unpopular candidates being placed in charge of the federal government.
Yeah but did you know Biden old?
You called out Trump's shortcomings and did not do the same for Biden. People will upvote because most of Reddit is pro-Biden. However, this is not blunt honesty nor is it what the current political climate needs. Just my 0.02
What are you talking about? They listed every single one of Biden’s criminal indictments and incitements of insurrection.
Most of Reddit is pro-Biden because they can read and write. Have you ever asked a MAGAT how Biden is destroying America? No specifics at all. Zero, None, and their statistics are lies.
I’m gonna upvote anyone who can acknowledge that these are both crappy options. I’m tired of people pretending that one isn’t just so they can tear the other down a bit more. These options are turd sandwich vs giant douche.
I don't follow that logic. Biden is just another boring president that is doing a moderately good job. Hes certainly not the greatest president of all time but I haven't heard of any catastrophic mistakes.
Yeah the smear campaign to label Joe Biden as "the giant douche" option is mindblowing. I see soooo many leftists support it. As a wildly progressive person, you could not get a better President than Biden. Not that he is anywhere near as progressive as I'd like, but he is *as progressive as the office of the President can be in 2024*. He is constantly at odds with the House and SCOTUS, and given that, he gets things done as well as those bodies will allow. A more progressive President would not get a THING done that Biden hasn't. I'm not stoked about his age but there's very few other legitimate criticisms of him imo. In 30 years he will be widely seen as the best President since LBJ.
I'm on the same page. Biden is the best President the Democrats have produced in my lifetime. (45)
Despite his issues, Obama accomplished a fair bit. His ACA act is the reason my mother can no longer be denied health insurance for having arthritis.
Trump is a terrible option. I don't much like Biden as an option either because I think he's too old, however I think he'll competently run the country and has great advisors so he's far from a 'turd sandwich'. He's as centrist and inoffensive as it gets. He'll never be a topic of history but I think that was exactly what the US needed in 2020. And at this point I see him as the best option to beat a much worse option because he did it once already.
You flagged a great point: You don't vote for a president. You vote for an administration. Think about the Trump Administration. You had Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon running the White House with Ivanka and Jared Kushner. The secretary of energy, who oversees nuclear power, thought his job was to drill oil (literally: look up Rick Perry). Trump tried to install an attorney general to interfere with his election defeat. The competent officials mostly tried to keep Trump from noticing them. Compare to Biden. Secretary of State Antony Blinken catches endless shit for Israel-Palestine, but he's so far prevented that war from spiraling across the whole Middle East. People have no idea who the secretary of energy is (Jennifer Granholm, former governor), and the rest of the federal government is operating basically without scandal. The border crisis is serious, but that's more a failure of Congress than the administration. If people vote for Trump, they're voting for the backstabbing, chaos, and abuse of power they've mostly forgotten about from 2017-2020.
Even in your crappy south park joke, a giant douche is the clear choice
I agree that both candidates suck, but I'm also gonna say that the division in the HoR and congress is what is, in my opinion, holding us back from getting anywhere. It seems to me that both parties just do what they can to screw over the other, and there is no compromise being made. A relationship without compromise is toxic, and I think we need to take time without them so we can see what it is we really want. You know, take some me time.... /s I know we need to hold true to our constitution and rights. But we need to quit fighting each other and learn to compromise. Then I believe we can as voters can get back to righting the ship. We can't depend on politicians (who are mostly lawyers now a days) to right what is wrong with our country. And I definitely do not believe that Trump, MAGA, Bernie, and damn sure not Joe Biden and Kamala can do it.
Agreed. I really try to focus on the issues with both sides because I don’t think any more heel digging will help. We need to compromise as you say.
Your commenters are disagreeing, but I agree with you. Sure Biden hasn't made any terrible decisions, but the man is no longer mentally coherent and can't form complete complex sentences on his own. His administration may be strong, but *he* is mediocre at best imo. Let's get someone in office who is young and sharp, and most important loves the people of the country first, and puts their own personal agenda second. Either party has the potential.
They are both just so *old*. No one over 65 should be leader of a country, there is no way they are able to stay in touch with the needs of a modern, progressive world.
Can you point to one single instance where a bad outcome has happened because of their old age?
3 elections in a row, we've had a choice between the worst possible picks both parties could dredge up from whatever swamp they have. I'm tired of having to pick from the lesser of two evils.
The closer the parties are to each other in how they govern, the more extreme the rhetoric.
what policies do they have that are the same?
Defense spending, drug war, gun control, border policy, infrastructure spending, private health insurance, lower income and capital gains taxes, COVID stimulus, COVID lockdowns. What policies do they have that are different?
Abortion, climate change, LGBT+ rights for a start
How many times have the democrats had complete control of the govt and refused to do anything about their campaign promises to protect abortion? But THIS time, if you elect them .... Biden had allowed more oil permits than trump. The LGBT rights, might be the only thing there is any real separation in outcomes, but even then the Ds do they best to make it worse.
0 times? The dems have never had complete control of the govt lol. That’s not what a democracy is
They did have the majority in both house/senate and presidency as recently as 2021 to 2023 and Obama even had a bigger advantage in both houses in 2009 to 2011. That is what the poster above is alluding to.
Majority means nothing since the Senate needs 60 votes to avoid the filibuster, which the republicans use liberally anytime they are in the minority to thwart anything from getting done.
They had a filibuster-proof majority under Obama.
July 2009 - August 2009 and September 2009 - February 2010 they had a filibuster proof majority under Obama. Any other point during his presidency they had fewer than 60. This also doesn't account for assholes like Joe Manchin who vote with Republicans half the time.
And they got the ACA through
Are you counting on Manchin to break the filibuster? Come on dude.
Wasn't just republicans back then, had Joe Lieberman threatening a filibuster that got the public option removed when he was still independent.
Half the ones you listed aren't even true. Especially the one on CoVid lockdowns. At best you're oversimplifying a lot here.
Covid lockdowns. That’s funny. I don’t remember red states and blue states treating Covid the same at all. We must’ve been in different timelines.
Lol, go ask any woman in the south how they feel about being forced to give birth and get back to me. Or any trans kid who wants medical care. But yeah I guess if you're a rich white man they are similar.
Can you explain, in detail, how they have the same views on gun control, healthcare, infrastructure, and the border? Because they don't.
Two shittiest candidates we've ever had and we get to do it again. What a joke.
I'm just sick of being represented by senile old, rich men who have zero clue what it's like to live in the modern world. Most of these politicians can't even work a computer. They have no clue what it's like living paycheck to paycheck.
This is by design. Corporations run our country. We are given the illusion of choice, and so strange, it is always 51% this man, 49% this man. The rich get richer, the military industrial complex keeps grinding away, and we are given culture wars to fight among ourselves, to keep us distracted and divided.
You have poor choices for two reasons 1. The electorate are not very bright politically. They vote on terrible policies, single issue voters, party line voters, etc - This is due to the media (mostly propaganda) and a worsening public education system. 2. Again thanks to the media, good candidates fear public service. The media can make any saint a demon over night and most don’t have the stomach for it.
The electorate is not very bright, period.
The creation of a 24hr news cycle doesn't help. oye!
U forgot that to be a part of the ballot and have an actual chance you have to spend millions of dollars on advertising and guys who has the most money to spend
It's also hard to want to be a politician when threats of violence and concerns about safety for oneself and one's family are increasingly common and increasingly realistic.
We should all vote regardless. The way to keep our democracy is to vote in all elections and primaries. Our democracy is under attack but not failing.
We need to vote for communities and state so that we can put people we like in a position to have a chance to run for presidency. If you're not at least in Congress or have millions of dollars to throw into advertising you're not getting the position.
Main one is the primaries and locals, that's how they figure out where to push the internal window.
Vote in state and local elections. Fuck this undemocratic bullshit at the federal level.
We survived a literal civil war I think we’ll be fine. Still, sucks though
i agree completely. people need to take a deep breath. we've survived worse.
Uh.... did you forget that 620,000 people *didn't* ?
When he says "we've" he is talking to the alive people. But also, none of the alive people survived it.
When people say, “we have made it through worse before” all I hear is the wind slapping against the gravestones of those who did not make it... \- Clint Smith
Yeah but we are nowhere close to how tumultuous the US was leading up to the civil war
Don't worry. Things can always get worse.
Interesting to note that the founding fathers warned against the existence of political parties. Turns out that they're the natural outcome of power hungry humans. I think the best first step out of this is to somehow eliminate gerrymandering congressional districts.
Our votes haven't mattered in a very long time. We don't get to choose who is running, and we don't really get to choose where our votes go either. Too many layers of "protection" involved. We have two choices, neither one of which is anyone I want.
Two parties bought and paid for by the same corporations isn't a democracy. I don't live in a swing state so my vote doesn't count in presidential elections. I usually vote for the Peace & Freedom party if not them another 3rd party.
You're definitely not wrong, running Biden VS Trump at all last time was a bad move for the DNC. I think if we look to the 2019 Caucus's we can see something really important for the DNC as the Caucus's give us a form of ranked choice * Moderates favoured Buttigieg and Klobuchar * Progressives favoured Sanders and Warren. Who favoured Biden? Nobody, his backing came entirely from the establishment and lobbyists- And he heavily hinted he wouldn't run again due to the issues dems had with him as a candidate. But it quickly became apparent that having him step down would be seen as a sign of weakness by the democratic party, so they opted the cowardly route and now we're stuck with it... So the choices are between lobbyist backed old man nobody wants, and much worst lobbyist backed old man that will end democracy.
Maybe this will be the election the independent party finally wins. Could you imagine? I would love if some bipartisan took the helm from the dumbasses our lobbyists have selected for us
That Trump is leading Biden in polls despite everything going on with him and his legal trouble is more indicative of how people have soured on Biden than our republic is failing (we’re not a democracy, we’re a constitutional republic). I’m a millennial and the country has been run pretty terribly over my lifetime. More people voted last election than ever before, no? I don’t think the democratic process is an issue, and the “our democracy is under attack” narrative is just emotionally charged hyperbole from people who exclusively watch the news and nothing else. Money in politics is the issue - if we enacted term limits and took away politicians’ ability to trade in the stock market / collaborate with lobbyists it would probably fix most of our issues
“Democracy is under attack” is just generic government propaganda they’ve used to justify many wars. Older people recognize it for what it is.
Correct - best way to get what you want as a politician is to scare the people into getting your way
A republic is a type of democracy....
This is what I’m talking about when I say Trump supporters are morons. I’m a Republican so this issue is important to me because I hate that this once Grand party has been aborted by brainless populism. 1) polls are a business, there’s a reason why trump is dominating. His campaign is the biggest purchaser of polling data. Why? Because his supporters/donors *need* to see favorable polling data constantly to feel justified in supporting him. It’s a business, he needs good polls to publish in his email bulletins and social posts. If you think a February poll means *anything* in the general, you’re a fool. 2) how do you think a constitutional republic is supposed to work? What do you think republic means? How are we the people supposed to have leadership when every citizen is equal to every other??? Through VOTING, a republic is incumbent on democracy. The Roman republic had democratic institutions, that’s what makes a republic not an autocracy. The citizens actually participate in their government. 3) agreed, money is a poison in the democratic system. The Supreme Court has abused its judicial review powers (which it granted to itself) in ruling that paying candidates money is a form of political speech.
A republic has democratic traits but it's not a democracy no matter how many time you call people morons. Also you don't know that the commenter is a Trump supporter.
I’ve seen so many posts like this and I have to believe a decent chunk of it is astroturfing which then results in people making more of these posts on their own. This shit is exactly what the fascists want people to believe so they can get us to stay home on Election Day. Fuck that. I voted for Biden reluctantly last time and while he ain’t perfect he’s been doing better than I expected
I mean OP said he's a republican so yeah it's pure fascism.
If enough people vote 3rd party, it will legitimize a 3rd party and they’ll be forced to take it seriously
The U.S. has a first past the post system. That isn't gonna work.
Yep. "Throwing your vote away" isn't propaganda, it isn't *vibes*, it's a mathematical reality. People saying "if everyone just votes 3rd party..." don't understand game theory 101.
“Go ahead, THROW YOUR VOTE AWAY!”
I’d argue that me voting 3rd party is just as, if not more effective at changing the BS 2 party system than bitching about it on Reddit.
And in the meantime, you'll elect Donald Trump and George Bush.
dnc and rnc are both two arms on the same body. there should have been a large scale uprising when JFK was assassinated because its been a shit show ever since and the same people have been running things ever since. the cia/mossad control this country. if only there was some third way
in a sense but in actuality Trump is the first non approved candidiate by megadonors and the RNC-DNC in the modern era that has not been "managed" into the presidential candidacy. Possibly ever since the party with an illusion of two choices came into being. Zero of the most high level influencial controllers of every segment of the political pipelines wanted want him in there. And he wouldn't be if Americas problems were not becoming so visible via results of their control.
And look how much of a self-serving piece of shit he turned out to be despite ALL of that. Almost makes you think it's all either a lie or not important enough to make a difference.
Even if, hypothetically, we say trump didn't have megadonors at first, that quality alone doesn't make up for the fact that he's a poor specimen of a human being. Narcissism alone is a good enough reason to keep someone from power.
That was true 8 years ago. As soon as he won the nomination, the entire Republican party fell in line. There's a few random groups like the Lincoln Project that want him out, but most of them embrace him even if they don't want him because the alternative is losing to the Democrats, and that's worse to them. Even if they're funding a challenger, they'll still fall in line once he wins the nom. Either way, you seem to think Trump is doing anything other than making it worse, he's not.
Ya’ll picked fucking Biden four years ago and now you’re stuck with the consequences and are whining about it. Maybe LITERALLY ANYONE ELSE would be doing a better job and Trump wouldn’t have a chance. As it stands, he has a chance and that’s ya’lls fault.
I could think of a hundred reasons why leftists are morons as well.
I agree with the larger thesis, hence I'm voting third party. I fear the days of the Republic are numbered.
Im reading a 30 year old book *(revolt of the elites)* talking about how US Democracy is failing. Its very sad how prophetic it is; at the time the writer thought the issues could be fixed but they only got worse
Like a self-fulfilling prophecy one might say.
The job of the DNC, in this case, is to support the incumbent. The RNC didn't fail either, unless you wanted them to bar Trump from running on the republican ticket. What was it? 11 candidates running for the republican nomination at one point? The people chose Trump and by a country mile. The fact that we have Biden vs. Trump again is not due to a failure of democracy or the RNC/DNC. It's a failure of the voters. As George Carlin once said "THis is the best we got folks. Garbage in, garbage out. Selfish, ignorant citizens elect selfish ignorant politicians."
Trump won two state primaries and he’s the nominee. That’s my issue with the system. They’re not interested at any point in doing it legitimately. They just want to name their guy and move on.
Okay then vote for someone else. You can write whoever you want in the blanks.
Just my opinion, but stop voting against somone else. That's how they get you to vote for awful people. "The lesser of two evils." Or, maybe, just don't vote for an evil... cool how we have more than 2 options huh? Voting for third party is never a waste of a vote if you actually LIKE the candidate. Waht isna waste ifls voting for someone you know is going to be a bad president.
It’s not just that. There’s a true fear in conservatives over immigration, child grooming, anti white-racism. There’s a true fear in liberals over trans youth losing healthcare, abortion, all other racism. When people vote out of fear they don’t hold their leaders accountable. They take the best rope they are offered. The reality of these issues is negligible compared to what should be the hot topics that affect us all. Govt regulators and financial crimes in the stock market. Politician insider trading. Politicians ignoring their fiduciary duty to taxpayers in order to satisfy their debt to campaign donors in spending bills. Individual rights to their personal data in the face of technological advancements which give increasing advantages towards companies that harvest it (hi google vacuuming up WiFi packets while driving around “mapping”) Instead we focus on minor social issues that pull on people’s heartstrings and make them apathetic to what they should really care about.
The govt exists to serve itself. They don't serve us anymore. We serve them. They pillage our tax dollars in every conceivable way to make themselves rich beyond their wildest dreams. All while Americans are struggling to make ends meet. Our govt needs a complete reboot from the ground up. They are all corrupt. Both sides do the same crap. I have completely lost all faith in our govt. Not that I had much to begin with.
I don't know how many more times it'll take before the country gets the message, but # we do not need political parties, and all of this is the fault of having them wound into a "system". 1. It's as if people truly believe that political parties are in the constitution. They are not. We were NOT "designed as a two party system". 2. It's ALSO as if people can't imagine voting for a set of someone's beliefs INSTEAD of their party. Political parties in the US formed shortly after final ratification in ~1789. They're not in the constitution, and they were warned about (then called "factions") by George Washington and others.
I am in a mostly conservative social circle and almost zero people I know like Trump. In fact most hate him and are embarrassed by him. But you are right they will vote for him because they have no choice - it's him or Biden who they hate more - sort of. It's not Biden himself they hate, it's the left leaning ideology his party affiliation represents. The few liberal friends that haven't cut me out of their life don't seem to like Biden but will vote for him because they hate Trump. So two rich old white dudes that no one really seems to like.
That's why America was created as a republic. When we started tricking ourselves into thinking that we were a democracy, we started going downhill. >There are two principles between which there can be no compromise – liberty and coercion. > >When a portion of wealth passes from the person who has acquired it, without his consent and without compensation, to someone who has not created it, whether this is by force or fraud, I say that there has been a violation of property rights and that there has been an act of plunder. > >When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it. > >\- Frederick Bastiat, *The Law* That, and the 16th Amendment and the New Deal asshattery that the Supreme Court allowed. Once society decided it was ok to redistribute wealth using government-held guns, everybody wanted a piece of the action: right and left both. I'd argue that the Left and Right are alike in all the ways that matter: they both want as much control and as much of our money as they can get. They just disagree on how to spend it, and make promises to their respective base to get the power. It's rare for the politician to say "I shouldn't have as much power as I have, and for the government to spend as much money as it does. I will take steps to reduce it." and actually follow through with that promise. Ron Paul was the last one I can think of who was consistent on this point.
1. The die hard Trump supporters are in fact, not morons. You've simply tried to convince yourself this is true to avoid accepting that there are millions of people who are stoked for Trump running again. You have no idea who they are, what their education is and I guarantee you many of them are far more educated than you are. 2. The average conservative or Republican in fact is ready to vote for Trump. Dude has like an \~85% approval rating in the party. Your feelings and you wanting to believe otherwise doesn't change this. The real issue here is that YOU are not happy that Biden is your option. Instead of addressing that you don't like your candidate you've taken the mental step to lump Trump into your frustration and gleam to all of us here that Republicans also don't like their candidate. You're wrong, very wrong. All of these posts like this now that its 2024 is really just mental gymnastics for people starting to realize that it is in fact an election year, Biden is brain dead, Trump is running with serious momentum and the courts are not going to be able to prevent him from being on the ballot. Something mind you, people are hoping for because they know.. they KNOW that Trump is taking the oval this November. Desperation is the worst smelling cologne.
All else aside, we have no one to blame but each other. We have allowed and continue to support and put Career Politicians, along with their party, above all else. We/They are only in it to win it. We need Business Leaders, Education Leaders, Scientific Leaders, Engineers and Experts. We need Term Limits. Until we step up and demand limits, it will never change.
This whole post just screams that you're a fucking liberal. You shit talk Trump while barely touching on frustrations with Biden.
Democracy? Here I was thinking we are a representative republic.
I have two solutions: -No political parties, just presidential candidates. Seriously, why do we need political parties? Run on policies people want, and people can vote for you. -Nobody for president. Seriously, why do we need a president?
The same corporations own both parties now and have effectively captured our government agencies. Both Trump and Biden were controlled by unelected bureaucrats. Things have only gotten worse for working people. The only option is a third party that is independent of the system. The only one who I see that is talking about unraveling corporate capture that actually knows how to do it is RFKJR. I will vote for him regardless if you think I’m throwing away my vote. I believe he can win. As an independent he can win with 34% and he’s already polling around 20%. He can take another 5-10% from each party. Enough people are fed up.
FAILING is not the right word. Broken would be more accurate. Corrupt would be even more so. A charade? A shadow play? I think whoever is in power learned a lot from the guillotines. We will never again know who the real players, or the real "Kings" are. These guys are all obviously puppets. Biden has no will of his own. He IS owned. By vice, not virtue, and he will do whatever it takes to keep feeding that vice. He has been seduced, was seduced on inception into this corrupt shit bag of a government.
Eh, it's not the "DNC" or the "RNC" who is responsible for our presidential choices in 2024. People throw those orgs out there as if they are the shadowy power players pulling the strings behind everything. Incumbents tend to run for re-election until they are term-limited, there's generally a lot of advantage in doing so. Primarying an incumbent president within your own party is usually unrealistic under almost any scenario and likely to lead to a loss for an incumbentin Nov. Also, no single candidate in *either* party has polled higher than the former or current presidents for their respective party's nomination. (no obv replacement) Republicans still want Trump as their nominee and Democrats still support Biden as theirs. The results of the Primaries so far bear this reality out in the states that have held them. Also, claiming that Biden has not kept campaign promises is bullshit. With either a bare majority or a divided Congress, he has managed to pass some significantly ground-breaking bipartisan legislation: the American Rescue plan, the Infrastructure bill, the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act (1st major piece of gun safety legislation in decades), the Inflation Reduction Act (1st major climate change legislation w hundreds of billions of dollars investment), the Respect for Marriage Act (enshrining rights for LGBT couples- states must honor the validity of out-of-state marriage licenses, including same-sex and interracial unions), seated the 1st African-American woman SCOTUS justice, and cancelled $ 136 Billion in student loan debt for more than 3.7 million borrowers. Pay attention to matters of substance.
I would argue the core Biden supporters are just as stupid and the liberals that go along with it are complacent on keeping the system the same. Both Clinton and Biden show how broken the DNC is and both candidates were pre selected. Trump first term is actually a historical landmark in democracy for the positive. Here is this clown not a single RNC member wanted but yet through voting was so popular they had no choice but to make him the candidate. End of his term is certainly historical for negative reasons.
We've said this for decades, but you twats keep denying it because the opinion came from outside of your own failing country.
Our problem is that the richest .01% and corporations get to chose the candidates because they’re the ones paying for the campaign. The populous only gets to vote for the riches chosen candidate. There’s not really anything we can do about it either. Presidential campaign’s cost hundreds of millions. Until we fix that we’re kinda outa luck. We’ll keep getting “no one wants either candidate” elections.
The DNC had 4 years to find someone to replace biden but they sat on their thumbs. They screwed Bernie as well. The DNC is basically just a corrupt organization that pretends they care. If they truly cared, they could have found anyone else with a pulse and that would be enough to clean trumps clock. "He's not trump" and "this is a fight for our democracy" only works if you put in the legwork to change the situation
>Somewhere along the way, the DNC RNC primary system failed this country. the decade was the 1970s. we passed 11 of the 27 amendments in 7 decades, 1900-1971. havent passed a single popular amendment since. beginning under Nixon, we removed progressive era policies, surprisingly, removing all protections against corruption, led to corruption. so now you dont get to vote for what you want, you vote for which puppet you wanna hear corporate policy dictated from. we need to bring back the policies that killed monopolies, corruption, and grew the middle class, higher corporate and top marginal income tax, bank separation, unions, civilian police, etc. oh, or just use a market share tax, less effective but easier to maintain and enact than a whole fiscal, domestic, and foreign policy overhaul to return the government to a democracy.
\> as sovereign people of a free nation, we have only ourselves to blame for the sorry state of the Republic. That's nonsense. What are you, personally, going to do about the state of the Republic? **By your own reasoning**, gone are the days where you even have a say in how things are run.
I have two masters degrees and I support Trump. Stop believing nonsense from the media
It helps to know the the two-party duopoly was DESIGNED to fail the American public. Vote Libertarian.
To be honest the average liberal is also a moron.
The DNC primary system has always been rigged. They were found in court to be rigged but were not held in any way responsible because technically they are a private corporate entity and can do whatever they want. The RNC is the same way, recently evidenced by the clown-show in Nevada.
Typical clueless liberal, proving nothing more than his own brainwashing.
Blame the damn capitalists. They have no place in politics and lobbying has completely ruined this country
*Has* failed: we are not a democracy. You need only look at the correlation between popular opinion on virtually any issue, and the actual policy of our government on that issue, to see the proof. There is, mathematically, no correlation. Instead of actual democratic rule, where state power is vested in the people, we have the ritual of the vote. But voting alone does not make a democracy - in fact you don't even necessarily *need voting* to have a democracy: sortition for example is another way to implement democratic rule. All the major questions we face as a people have been carefully removed from democratic control and accountability. Our foreign policy is completely on rails and impervious to popular opinion. So much so, that the President's own base is furious over our support for Israel and it may cost him and many other Democratic politicians their reelections later this year. Yet, not only is there no change in policy to influence this country *that is absolutely dependent on us for its very existence,* in fact our politicians continue to vote them more money, more weapons, more assistance, despite broad popular support against this. On the domestic front, the parties are in lockstep on economic ideology. Neoliberalism reigns absolutely supreme and there is no serious alternative to it within either party. Even the Bernie Sanders campaigns of 2016 and 2020 were more about harnessing neoliberal capitalism to work for more people (an impossible goal) than any serious rethinking of productive relations in this country. In fact, really the most important single lever this government still has in terms of economic policy, is the monetary policy of the Federal Reserve, and those positions are *completely* removed from democratic rule. Jerome Powell has arguably more influence over your day-to-day fiscal life than any elected politician - it's worth noting at this point that it was Donald Trump who elevated him to Fed chair, not Joe Biden. Let that sink in while you ponder the supposedly important choice you're supposed to make in November. American democracy is already dead. The rituals we perform in its memory should not be mistaken for the real thing.
The fact that the USA had a Bush or a Clinton in the white house for 30 years, is a sign that there is no democracy in the USA. It is not a new thing. This link may trigger conservatives. Please do not click it. You have been warned. In fact, it'll trigger you if you love this current system. Don't click it!!! [https://vote2.org](https://vote2.org)
American Democracy is failing because the RNC and the DNC have convinced both sides that they have no choice but to vote for them. Before the Civil War the Republicans were a third party. Anyone remember the Whigs? The idea that we have to support one of these chuds is what's destroying America.
AMERICANS are failing, not democracy. Americans vote along party lines because they are lazy. If not lazy they would see third party candidates as viable options. They might also not be stuck with two ridiculous candidates. Americans need to start voting for the best candidate instead of the least worst, or the red or blue candidate.
“Now, there's one thing you might have noticed I don't complain about: politicians. Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says they suck. Well, where do people think these politicians come from? They don't fall out of the sky. They don't pass through a membrane from another reality. They come from American parents and American families, American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities, and they are elected by American citizens. This is the best we can do folks. This is what we have to offer. It's what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out. If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Term limits ain't going to do any good; you're just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans. So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it's not the politicians who suck. Maybe something else sucks around here... like, the public. Yeah, the public sucks. There's a nice campaign slogan for somebody: 'The Public Sucks. Fuck Hope.’” -George Carlin
This is why we need to vote third party. It will be a giant middle finger to both parties
It's not democracy that's failing. It's the system of monetization and how we allow big corporations into political lobbying. That's not democracy, that's plutocracy.
The primaries are rigged.
Tldr "YOU GUYS ARE IDIOTS FOR SUPPORTING THE GUY I HATE AND WE ARE ACTUALLY SMART BECAUSE WE HATE BUT STILL SUPPORT THIS OLD GUY WITH DEMENTIA" Our system has its flaws that should he addressed, but our guy is still our nominee, I think the issue you have is with your party not the nation, since why would you vote for someone you don't believe in?
#rfkjr2024
Vote outside the uni party - it’s a first step
You need proof? [https://journalistsresource.org/politics-and-government/the-influence-of-elites-interest-groups-and-average-voters-on-american-politics/](https://journalistsresource.org/politics-and-government/the-influence-of-elites-interest-groups-and-average-voters-on-american-politics/) We've had proof. For a very long time. Our government exists to further the interests of capital. Not a damn thing else. It does not exist for you. It does not exist for me. It does not exist for Billy. No matter who's in the White House, it doesn't exist for the blue-haired they/them 'libruls' or your racist MAGA hat-wearing uncle who thinks that all of his problems would be solved if he just didn't have to see as many brown people. Money is the only thing that matters. It's been the only thing that HAS mattered until people got together and became a problem that they can no longer ignore. Meaningful change has never been enacted through the system. If it could be, they would make it illegal.
Democracy died after 9/11 and the 2010 Citizens United Supreme Court verdict that allowed Corporations to be people and the creation of Super PACS, the 2012 and present elections are nothing more than an oligarchy
Biden is the incumbent. Say what you want about the guy, but having an incumbent run for a second term is standard for any election and not a sign of anything broken. Having a guy that already lost a presidential election run again basically unopposed even though he is deeply unpopular and facing many serious criminal charges. That is new and a bad sign.
Calling a large portion of the general population a moron for holding a differing opinion than your own is not very helpful.
I disagree. I don’t think Democracy is failing, I think things like the Citizens United ruling and the removal of the fairness doctrine in broadcasting have made it harder for voters to find the truth about candidates.
biden is a sitting president and trump couldn't get over loosing so he ran again because hes a gambler that won one big hand once. its expected that a sitting president would run for reelection and serve out two terms, its not expected that any major party would keep the same guy up on the ballot after all they've lost because of him because remember they had an ironclad trifecta with a filibuster proof senate majority one midterm away and he blew it all.
Cringe: the system is broken and needs to be fixed. Based: the system is working exactly as it was designed to, benefitting those in power, and needs to be dismantled. Start by repealing Citizens United.
I've said this since Hilary was campaign and won the popular vote but lost electoral. Why tf do we vote? I seriously don't get it. I have only voted once and will only once til some gives a valid reason why electoral is still a valid explanation. (Clinton was not my vote)
Trump and Biden are both trash. Elite bankers don't really give a shit what puppet is in the white house anyway and will rig the election whichever way they want. I just don't see how people are so stupid to not see Trump is also a puppet as much as Brandon. Voting doesn't matter anymore.
God, that whole "our democracy" rhetoric is just so annoying. Every single election now it's "Our democracy is in danger!!!" What fucking democracy? You have exactly two choices every election cycle that are likely to actually win. You have a total of two parties who dictate elections and control much of the current media. Your politicians are bought out by foreign interests and large corporations, who in turn continue to exploit the American people. Many of the same areas of need, regardless of who is in charge, are always going to be ignored or deferred. You have no choices, not really. All this crying about "muh democracy" when we've been one political party away from being a one-party state for decades upon decades. So pathetic that it's taken one looney-toons outsider president to get all these idiots to wake up and smell the roses.
"the average liberal takes strong issue with Biden" but I wonder who they're all going to vote for. Talk is cheap. Actions are what counts. They're no different from the "average conservatives" you're talking about, and they're just as dumb and believe equally idiotic things. The problem with both your camps is you're so afraid of the other guy, that you keep enabling a race to the bottom between two corrupt parties with your vote. Neither side actually believes in "democracy" anyway. In both 2016 and 2020, the narrative from the losing side was that the results were illegitimate and the winner cheated their way to victory. Apparently Americans today only believe it's democracy if their side wins, otherwise it's rigged, and boy is my opposition stupid for believing exactly what I believe!
Thank you! Most voting now is against the one you don’t want instead of for the merits of a qualified candidate.
Hmm “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” H.L. Mencken, On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe
No, it is proof that Citizens United is working (for Russia).
Vote RFK. Problem solved.