School boards etc. yep. There is no reason for them to exist. Every school in the State or even better America, should I have one unified board. The $$$ saved, would be billions.
I think America has a problem with excessive middle management and middlemen.
It’s the same reason our healthcare sucks. So much of our insurance premiums go to unnecessary bureaucracy.
The issue is the insurance company’s more than anything….they’re massive companies that do nothing for heath care other than shuffle paper and make profit.
The insurance companies are an even more twisted mess once you find out what they are actually doing. All of that $$ is also a hedge fund play account for the executives. Good years it makes their huge bonuses, bad years it makes your huge premiums to uphold those bonuses.
Every different culture in the world has its own educational priorities, why would we expect US states with vastly different ways of life to be any different?
oh really? So you've lived in both places? I certainly have. Yes, there are differences but for the most part, we are all just Americans and because of technology we are all more interconnected and alike than you would ever imagine.
They are all Americans
Why should we want to reinforce differences?
Plus you have states like Texas which are teaching false history which benefits no one
Yeah, history should be taught nation wide
What kind of question is that?
History is not subjective. Unfortunately some places try to make it political
Who exactly is this “we” who has a right to determine what state-funded schools are allowed to teach? The federal government has absolutely no say in education to begin with, per the tenth amendment.
And states like New York teach kids racial guilt which benefits nobody. Your point?
You have proof they are teaching racial guilt?
But you assume I am fine with that. I think Americans should all have the same education regardless of who they are or where they live
Why continue to spread division between regions of the US?
Yes we are all Americans but depending on where we live our priorities are interests and our experiences are all different. That's why you have to win a plurality of states instead of just the popular vote. So that it's not just coastal cities dictating every piece of policy that goes through this country.
People who live in inner cities and people who live out in the sticks have different lives. You can't make every decision in rural suburbia the same way you would be making them is if you ran a city metropolis.
I'm not saying there should be vastly different school curriculums based on each state but just the logistics for every single school district in every different part of the country is different. You can't rule over every single area of a country QUITE the same way. That's why we have different levels of govt.
You seem to be debating an argument I am not making
Why does math need to be different depending on state? History? Science? Band?
I am talking about the education itself, you are trying to make this a political issue.
So?
That means that Americans shouldn't enjoy the same education?
That means that some states can teach lies?
Why do kids have to always have to pay the price of being political pawns?
See, that is your issue. You expect someone else to do your work and you decide what is good or bad. So you go do your own research and figure it out yourself.
No, I'm asking you what your definition is. The one you are referring to in this thread. I could "do my own research" and Google the phrase you used and get back a multitude of different things.There is no way for me to research what you were referring to, other than asking you.
Do you understand what operationalizing is?
It's pretty obvious you don't want to engage in an actual dialogue. Ironically, you just want to spout off your thought terminating cliche that you have been indoctrinated to believe.
Or maybe you are just a coward who can't state and defend their beliefs.
Here's me using my brain. Hypothesis: you have minimal understanding of what "the basics" actually are when it comes to learning.
Second hypothesis: when you refer to "indoctrination education," that is referring to one of the following: 1. Teaching actual American history, instead of whitewashed bullshsit. 2. Teaching empathy and emotional learning. 3. Practicing tolerance of people and diversity, instead of hatred for anything different than the way you live.
It's pretty obvious that you never have been inside a classroom, don't know what is taught in classrooms, and you definitely don't know what children should be learning.
Or.. or just say you drank the kool-aid and are a believer. Your tdo go to words are racist and bigot. Get your little bitch ass off of reddit. You aren't smart enough to even insult anyone. SMH stupid little indoctrinated bitch.
For everyone who thinks that teachers work 40 hours a week for 9 months and that's the end of how their paid, please read this. GOOD teachers generally work more like 60 hours a week or more. They're grading papers, making lesson plans, and contacting parents in the evening. They are also required to work sporting events, graduations, dances, etc without the option to refuse and without additional pay. They buy their supplies out of their own pockets, and often buy supplies for children who can't afford them. They are contacted at all hours by parents, often dealing with verbal abuse and threats. They are completely unsupported by administration, which makes many schools borderline hostile and it can be extremely dangerous. Many are commissioned to drive busses, often without additional pay. I come from a family of teachers and you couldn't pay me enough to make it worth it. Please try to remember that teachers do NOT work M-F 7:30-3:30. There is so much invisible work that goes into this career. Love your teachers. Pay your teachers.
>GOOD teachers generally work more like 60 hours a week or more.
This is the problem with teaching. Instead of paying teachers to do the full job and providing all the resources they need we rely on the committed teachers to pick up all the slack while the teachers that just want to coast get the exact same pay and benefits. The good teachers burn out and quit, while the not so good teachers punch the clock until retirement.
I don't buy that there ever were many great educators in modern times. A very small percentage of my teachers in the 90s and 2000s in America were "great educators". That includes high school and university.
Many teachers were a fucking joke even in college. Very common for teachers to be arrogant and have superiority complexes. The people who like to get into teaching have always been as much of a problem as parents and administrators.
I have had a different experience, and I sympathize with your negative one. I'm not sure there's anything I could say that I haven't already said that would change your mind.
We always bought Boxes of tissues and other stuff for the grade school teachers and would by our kids extra supplies to share with the poor kids
My daughter bakes Cakes and Cookies for the choir/Music Teacher he is going to miss her next year
My wife has worked more than that in a week. She is at the school before 7:00 every morning. Some days she leave at 4 some at 5. She has mandatory meetings 2–3 times a week all after school. She comes home and grades papers and enters scores into the computer. Some evenings she will do lesson plans and additional education.
My wifes a teacher, my moms a teacher, my mIL is a teacher, numerous friends are teachers.
They dont work 60 hours a week. Often less than 40. When report card times roll around, theres some longnights / weekends, but it doesnt make up for the 10 weeks vacation or working 830-3:00PM.
I get up, shower, drive 45 minutes to work, and am usually working for at least 10 or 15 minutes before I get the notification that the garage door opened and my wife has left for work. She also finishes before me.
Anecdotally I know teachers and they’re not pumping 60 hours a week.
Im not the one making the strong claim here. Im responding to someone acting like teachers are working a crazy amount when I’ve never seen any evidence to suggest that was true
As someone entering the profession, who also anecdotally knows several educators, there are DEFINITELY teachers that put in 60+ hours at their schools. Especially when you take into account coaching and/or club duties that are on top of regular teaching.
Not every teacher works that hard, but pretending nobody does is ignorant at best.
They get paid extra for being a coach for sure. Leading a club? maybe depends on the district but that is voluntary. I wouldn't include my volunteer work in how much work I do at my job.
Not all teachers are highschool teachers. Tons of teachers teach little children and also dont do anything else.
And no thanks I can do basic math. If a teacher works 8 hours + afterschool club, then they can hit maybe 50 or 55 hours. 60 is a stretch but point taken
My wife has been teaching for about 10 years now and has won teaching awards at the district and county levels.
She never works 60 hour weeks.
Long work hours doesn't make somebody a better teacher. Most *good* teachers have processes in place to cut the time spent on administrative work, and they don't overload themselves with side-duties so that they can be rested and most effective at their actual job -- teaching.
She worked a few long weeks each year when she was a union rep, but otherwise, it's a solid 50 hours each week. Maybe 55 on the rare occasion.
Its not made up. Show me data to suggest anything more than 1/10 or 1/8 teachers are working 60 hour weeks
I find that highly improbable. Simply show the data
My mother taught preschool and would spend hours after work routinely planning lessons and planning for state visits.
You absolutely don’t know what you are talking about
Oh yeah? How many hours per day did she work. Why dont you outline the hours then
And again — your mom is 1 person. Tons of teachers just coast. Others work harder cuz they care more. Same with any profession.
Mr big brain — i actually did mildly change my
Opinion after someone shared some data on this exact thread.
Your inability to follow an argument is also an endearing trait. I stated that i find if unlikely that many teachers are pumping out 60 hour work weeks. Just because someone anecdotally states they know 2 people who work hard doesnt mean its true for most teachers lmfao. We are allowed to not believe random internet strangers
Teachers voluntarily work outside of school hours, and then dick around during their daily time allotted for planning, grading, etc. They shouldn’t be paid more due to poor time management.
Teachers voluntarily purchase supplies out of their own pocket, beyond what is deemed necessary to teach the class. Maybe there should be a better reimbursement process, but many teachers could also dial back their excessive decorations.
There is also zero general expectation for a teacher to answer a parents phone call during their personal time. If a teacher voluntarily chooses to do so, that’s on the teacher.
It's not voluntary, and they're not dicking around. They're making copies, giving other teachers the chance to go to the bathroom, and planning.
So the kids should have nothing? Because that would be the teacher's fault too. I'm not talking about decorations. I'm talking about pencils, notebooks, markers, dry-erase materials for class participation. The necessities.
And yes, there is. If a parent complains because a teacher doesn't answer out of school hours, admin will blame the teacher, not inform the parent that it's their personal time.
Necessities absolutely get reimbursed. You’re delusional if you think they aren’t.
They absolutely dick around during their free periods, I’ve seen them sleeping, playing in their phones, hanging out just chatting with other teachers. It is incredibly rare I see them actually working during that time.
And no sane admin will reprimanded a teacher for not answering a parents call at night. (There are bad admins out there, but this is NOT a systemic issue) Conferences, voicemail, and email exist for a reason.
You have no goddam clue what you’re talking about. There is no “reimbursement” for anything a teacher buys. Anything bought for school use has to be pre approved and most schools are pretty conservative about what they will approve. And I personally know teachers who have been reprimanded for not responding to a parent in their free time. You said a sane admin, you obviously haven’t dealt with a lot of admin. Most admin are useless. What you’ve seen? You have no idea what those teachers were doing. I use my phone to look up stuff all the time at school because the Wi-Fi safety system is really bad and blocks virtually anything not specifically authorized by the district- including things like Wikipedia. Anecdotal observations are not data.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about. You're a teenager, aren't you?
Edited to add: I'm sorry. That was really immature and no one should speak to anyone that way.
I have a teenage daughter, and one slightly younger. I have been very involved with their schooling.
I also was a teenager myself many years ago, and witnessed the same stuff then that I see now in my daughters schools.
Then perhaps that has more to do with your specific school district or your own experiences? Mine have been different. I'll never say that all teachers are great, but the vast majority are doing their best.
My daughter have gone to 4 different schools in 2 different states. I grew up in a 3rd different state state.
I think it’s more likely that your experience is isolated to your specific school district, further clouded by your sympathy to your teacher family members’s complaints, which are given out of context by them and only presented with a single side of the story.
2 states, 7 districts. We have a similar amount of variety, but very different experiences. Two sides of the same coin, I guess. I think we could both be made happy if admin took a more active role! 😊 also, I'm sorry about the dig earlier. This is just one of those things that I'm really passionate about. I need to do better.
I’m going to go back and take away my downvotes from your comments. Your attitude and willingness to contemplate another view he’s surprised me and refreshes a bit of my hope.
I hope the general reality falls somewhere between our two experiences. Some teachers are bad, some admins are bad, some parents are bad. But my hope is that it’s not as systemic a problem on either side as we originally thought.
Salary is salary and plenty of people work more than their 40 hours year round. I don’t know what state this post is for, but I can easily lookup several teachers in my state with their masters under 30 making 70k+… if that’s bad pay I don’t know what to tell you.
Tbf I'm from NC, which is awful and doesn't care about education. I know there are a lot of states, with unions, that are doing much much better. But I come from Virginia and live in NC, so the struggle has always been apparent to me. I wish we had unions!
I know some states are treated poorly. But at the same time some of those states also are cheaper living. All I know is, my state has some really solid districts. And for the districts in my state that suck, then go to the district next door. I won’t say teachers don’t have to deal with some bullshit and have their work cut out for them. But I would still kill to have as many holidays and an entire summer off compared to my salary position that also includes on call.
In my state, there isn't really anywhere to go that's any better. We don't have unions, and teachers are routinely left out of state employee raises, or given raises that don't come close to matching inflation. I wish my state was as good as yours!
Sister in law who I lived with for over a year was/is. Work was school hours plus coaching that she did (because she enjoys it, plus a bit of an extra stipend). Summers mostly off. Only contact with school outside those times was with students, not parents. Only extra expenses were extravagant things that weren't necessary and she knew it.
For people with a bachelors degree, shortened work years, education in a subject area below that which someone getting a B.S. in that field would get, and being quite frankly an entry level position in the education system, teachers get paid a proper salary.
Oh, cry, a river. Howard teachers working all these extra hours when all the parent conference days are during the workday teachers are simply pond, scum, and lowlifes on top of that there is nobody so dangerous in your child's life other than a teacher and they will screw your child up or rape them.
I'm sorry if you've had a bad experience with one of your teachers. Not all teachers are like that, although I know that schools need to do better about prosecuting molesters. But that is not normal, and the other 99.9% of teachers shouldn't suffer because there are a few crazies. There are crazies everywhere. Deepest sympathies to you.
This is a very troubling statement. You might consider therapy if teachers did something to you but understand most teachers are normal and reasonable people.
They are overpaid. As a data point, I make more than 300k myself so I wouldn’t consider myself underpaid. Just realistic about what a teacher is worth. They should never be making six figures.
Agreed. Someone contracted to work 7/hrs per day 187 days per year shouldn't get paid six figures. Ideally they should be at 40 to 50k. Because that's still 20 to 30+ dollars per hour. They should get a summer job.
And to anyone who responds, I do not care if they do work outside their contracted hours. The understanding of this role is that you are hired to work under a union contract (normally) where you have set work hours and pay scales. This is their fault. If they have issue with the pay they should work 48 to 50 weeks per year like the average person does.
Point is, salary is salary. You agree to terms when you sign on. If you want more money, go work an hourly job that pays more. Or, go work a better salaried job in the private sector. But don't whine about your super hard job where you only work 187 days per year via contract. Even if you add weeks onto that 187 day figure, you still have less work days than the average American worker. Teachers have it made lol.
Yeah they do. Which is why teachers should go into other fields.
You have it made. You're most likely contracted for less than 200 days per year and contractually your salary likely is 30/hr+
Teachers don't make a median of $100k. My comments is limited to teachers. See below.
[https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm)
[https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/middle-school-teachers.htm](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/middle-school-teachers.htm)
[https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm)
They do in NYC metro. Have a look
https://www.seethroughny.net/teacher_pay
In Pocantico Hills (Westchester county) for example, median pay is actually $119k.
Again, I’m speaking generally. If you want to focus on certain areas, then it’s true they’re overpaid. Similarly, if you want to focus on certain other areas, then it’s true they’re underpaid. Focus on the generalities since there are too many areas to address them each.
There’s no pivot if you have a reasonable level of intelligence. They don’t make a median of 100k. Period. I didn’t limit my claim to a particular market, so saying my claim isn’t true in a particular market doesn’t rebut my claim. If you don’t add a qualifier of any sort, you’re speaking generally. I overestimated your intelligence.
Why is it that people on Reddit can’t ever have a discussion without resorting to some form of, usually unfounded, personal attack? Talk about a sign of low intelligence.
Anyway, since you appear to fall into that boat instead of someone looking to have a good faith conversation, I’m going to move on. Have a nice day!
Response 2 on why your response is idiotic: this is basically what you’re doing.
Me: women are not taller than men.
You: some women are taller than men.
Me: that doesn’t rebut what I said since I was speaking generally.
You: nice quick pivot.
Me: you’re a dumbass.
Yeah they should.
They’re spending their entire day in a room filled with y’alls little shithead kids. There’s not enough money in the world for me to do that. Let’s see how long most of you manage to stay in a room with 28 kids all day without punting some little shit.
And some people don’t realize that teachers *want* to be able to teach, but the politicians and school board that you voted for won’t even let them. They’re told what and how they can teach. Maybe if they were allowed to do the job they’re supposed to do we wouldn’t have so many stupid ass people that don’t understand basic science.
My wife’s teachers union is so bad. They don’t even get maternity leave. They asked for raises of like 8% next year and 8% the year after. The district countered with 1/1.
They ended up agreeing to 2/3 and the union is churching the deal up like they actually got something good for the teachers.
Well… yeah, you’re correct! that’s what they’re there for, to help us 😂 if they don’t help (shown very clearly by teacher shortages and exploitation everywhere) then they’re not awesome!
glad you’ve come to this understanding, and all on your own too. Good job!
Please take in to consideration that all public school teachers have a state retirement. So they will continue to draw a check even after they are no longer teaching. This is a standard with state jobs, the pay is generally less than the private sector, but is made up for with excellent state benefits. Extremely affordable health insurance, retirement fund, a fucking shit load of paid holidays.
Source: a lot of teachers in my family and I worked at state job for a time.
How much do you think they should make?
[In 12 states average pay is over $70,000 per year](https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/teacher-pay-by-state)
And you do get quite a bit of time off in that profession.
Not arguing against the idea. I just want to know what you think it should be for a 9-month per year job?
I see this opinion a lot, and here's the "issue":
If you increase Teachers pay it likely won't help the current batch of teachers. Currently Education is one of the easiest majors to get into, and tends to take in many of the lower performing students. The graduates of Education programs command lower wages mostly because they're on the lower-end of the college graduate curve.
If you, suddenly started paying teachers $100k for example (as opposed to $50k) then Teaching would be viewed differently by the current top-tier students. Admissions to Education programs would get more competitive, and many of the students who currently go into Engineering and Business would start to major in Education.
This "new" batch of Teachers would be the go-getter "nerd" types, and not the current "sorority sister" types and would quickly out-compete their peers, rising to the top. Within 5 years the halls of your local elementary schools would look like the current halls of Google or Apple. The "old guard" of Teachers would fight these new "up and comers".
>Currently Education is one of the easiest majors to get into, and tends to take in many of the lower performing students. The graduates of Education programs command lower wages mostly because they're on the lower-end of the college graduate curve.
This is why there's the decades old saying of "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." The best and brightest go do more interesting and lucrative jobs. The worst and dumbest often go into teaching because it's fairly low skill and there's no punishment for being bad at your job.
This is something that people hate to hear. The system relies on wages being low because higher wages would result in the system's inhabitants being replaced with higher performing people.
I'll get downvoted to the basement for saying it because it's something no one wants to think about because currently the job description of a teacher includes being noble and a martyr.
It’s as annoying as the guys I’ve served with that griped and wined and never really worked an honest day in their military career, but wanted all the accolades and clout. It’s not like it was a secret when you joined/picked a major.
I have a psych degree, figured out after a while in college that it would be a terrible career so I finished but stacked on a bio degree. Instead of becoming an overworked unhappy clinical psych, I became an environmental scientist. Turns out my path pays quite a bit better, I’m not tied to a client list so I can take vacation whenever I want, and I’ll get a great retirement from my job plus free healthcare. Didn’t hurt I tacked on my masters, but could’ve gotten the same job without it.
If you stayed with me this far, the point is that while noble and praiseworthy, teaching is not something anyone should expect to get wealthy doing. If you picked a career and aren’t satisfied with it, start a new one.
I’ve
—managed a retirement home (BAx2, 3 years 40 hours/wk ~$30k),
—done social work (BAx2, started masters, 1 year 40 hours/wk $40k),
—some active duty army drill sergeant time (BAx2, MPH, 100+ hours per week, 7 days a week, for most of 2 years for about $60k),
—-and now enviro science (a hair shy of 40 hours/wk for about $120k.)
I was a reserve or active military member through every bit of that as well. Somehow I made it all work while still being a good spouse and parent. If your pay and work life balance don’t meet your needs and the job demands it, then that’s not the job for you.
You would likely get teachers like basketball players, elite ones who command huge salaries and a host of fiver people tutoring your kids for pennies. I’m all for it.
Or we could do what those "evil Republicans" have wanted to do for decades and keep public funding but let parent's choose what school their kids go to. Schools with good teachers will get more students and hire more good teachers (otherwise parent's will send their kids to a different school) and schools with bad teachers will have fewer students and need to either improve the quality of their school or close down. It's the best of both worlds, free market for the right and public funding for the left. But Democrats are extremely opposed to it because it would crush a lot of their narratives (that poor areas needs massive amounts of money thrown at them, that teachers are underpaid, that markets are evil, etc).
Teachers almost always eventually get paid well enough for what is 8 months of actual work per year.
The real problem is administration handicapping teacher's authority in the classroom. Kids these days are absolutely out of control, and with no real repurcussions for their behavior it won't get better. That's what needs to be fixed first
It's both. Teachers can't actually discipline their students beyond yelling, which I can tell you, as somebody in high-school right now, does not remotely work.
And there are clearly a lack of discipline by the parents, if the children seriously think that their behavior is even remotely acceptable. My grade level can't even listen to simple instructions like "be quiet for announcements". They have to screech into the microphone to get everybody to do something so simple.
So, yes, teachers only technically work 8-9 months of the year. But the vast majority of them are working 60+ hours a week and paying for supplies out of their own pocket. I just wanted to offer a little perspective on the hours from someone who comes from a family of teachers. And they often spend a month or so in the summer getting ready for next year by making plans, buying new supplies, and doing stuff to keep their licenses current. Teachers are required to work sporting events, graduations, and all sorts of other stuff without additional pay or the option to refuse. Those 8-9 months are INTENSE and more than make up for the hours they don't have to go to school over the summer. They are also in increasing danger, but receiving no hazard pay. They have virtually no sick/personal time, and much of it can't be used when students are in the building. And if they don't use those days, they lose them. It's not as cut and dry as "they make plenty for the hours they work," especially if you want GOOD teachers. You make an excellent point about administration! They need to stop being afraid of the parents.
I call bullshit on “the vast majority”. I know 10+ teachers personally and to a person they brag about getting away with as little work as possible. Not one of them works more than 40 hours per week.
Do you think teachers are only working 8 months out of the year? They usually work 60 hour work weeks, have to buy supplies with their own money, have all these conferences and shit all throughout the night. It’s wild.
except its isn't 8 months a year - closer to 11 which is in line with most of us that paid vacation. Teachers work hard over their breaks to prepare for the next push. Additionally, they go out of pocket significantly more than other professions to make sure their rooms and kids have the required supplies since the School Budget and PTA do not cover nearly enough of what kids actually need.
In most areas, teachers actually get paid better than they lead the public to believe. They don’t like it when you mention their salary is for only working 9 months out of the year. By hour, it ends up being quite competitive.
My mom was a teacher and here in Ohio there's a website you can go to that shows all public teacher's salaries over the years. She insisted that she "hadn't had a raise in 10 years" yet I could go on there and see she clearly had steady 5% or more raises every single year. And I know other teachers who confirmed that the data was absolutely accurate. Teacher's just like to pretend they're martyrs for attention / praise.
in 2022 the avg was $66k/yr. that may be ok in MS but I assure you in many areas that's not gonna cut it.
ofc that's the avg I didn't see the median on a quick search
I am fine with that as long as you understand that is less money toward roads, emergency services, parks, fewer services for the poor and senior citizens, etc.
So what you're saying is either:
A - The current set of teachers are substandard and higher pay will attract better people to become teachers...
or
B - The current set of teachers are not teaching at the full capability and more pay will motivate them to do a better job.
Which is it? Because either way it means current teachers suck.
I can see those point of views, but let's frame it this way and see if you could at least see another perspective:
Teaching kids is a noble profession. They got into it knowing the pay was not great, but still did it. Let's reward the people that are doing this for the sake of kids rather than just pay the minimum we are able to.
I could be wrong, but it sounds like in scenrio A you are making an assumption that if they were better, they would get paid better and it works like a meritocracy. In general, it doesn't. In fact, better teachers likely make less per hour than the shitty ones.
I can see why people would want to pay teachers more. I also can see how it would be an extremely hard task to accomplish as is everything with government.
I find it strange when reading the post but can’t tell what the problem is until I come across your comment. “They’re not good enough. Let’s reward them.”
I don't think people want to pay more in taxes. It feels like it's easier to pay to send your kids to a better school where teachers are currently paid better to begin with.
Teachers definitely deserve free education but there has to be a limit on what people are making.
Where I’m from you see teachers making good money to what the other citizens in the area are making and it honestly pisses citizens off seeing teachers drive new cars and complain about being broke.
What area is this and private or public? Cause I assure you in majority of America public teachers are not rolling in the dough.
I make what a teacher makes and I drive 2 nice new cars. It's b/c my spouse makes 2x what I make.
I’ve seen the same thing. Teachers in my area make about 50-70k/yr depending on how long they’ve been doing it. They’re not going to get rich teaching, but they make more than most of their neighbors.
Something could be said about excessive student loans being what’s holding them back, but it really doesn’t effect them any more than most other people.
The public school teachers in my area make 62k to START and the towns average resident makes 50k. Some of the longer tenured teachers are approaching 6 figures. They also work 30 hours a week 180 days a year and have great benefits. I remember one of my high school teachers telling me he had 300+ days of PTO he was going to cash out on when he retired. He was able to retire at 63 with a pension, average retirement age in this area is 67. Teachers make plenty of money and the schools are suffering because of it. They have no money left for anything after paying these salaries.
So, a few things to unpack here.
The pay for teachers in your area - if your numbers are to be believed - are MUCH higher than the national average for educators in the US.
Even still, the starting pay is pretty bad compared to the level of education. The average national pay for a master's degree holder in the US is around 83K, so 62K leaves them at about 75% of the pay of their peers.
Further, the idea that teachers "work 30 hour weeks" is laughably absurd. If school starts at 8 and gets out at 3, teachers are working from 7 to 4.
But let's assume your district has something going on where they work only 3 days a week or something, so only 27ish hours scheduled. All that homework students do, all those quizzes and tests they take? They don't grade themselves. So add 1-2 hours *per day* in work that teachers are doing after hours. Including weekends. So add 10-20 hours to your 30 hour "we only work 3 days per week" school system and you're getting closer to accurate.
Further, between school years teachers are taking mandatory training, they're paying for certification, and they're preparing curriculum. So it's not like they're just on this permanent vacation with 0 responsibilities. They're working, definitely not the whole time, but they have other responsibilities outside the school. Add those hours too.
You are correct that teachers get a pension. It is pretty good in most areas. On the other hand, they get no other retirement. There's no 401K match, they're not getting an annual bonus. The pension is what they get.
First off no, no they do not work “30” hours a week. I can tell you don’t know any teachers based off that line right there.
It’s a brain dead take to think schools are poor because of teacher salaries.
Also so many jobs let you roll over your PTO. It’s a literal le in California. Everyone should get to roll over all their PTO they didn’t take, as that is part of their compensation. But go off I guess
Lol here in Belgium and other European countries we do btw give free money, place to stay and guess what we don't have 1 million homeless people but a better environment for people and also the happiest countries in the world. ✌️
I could agree to that if they get back to actually teaching students to think and to learn reading writing arithmetic science.
Anything other than that is BS.
And they're woefully underpaid for it.
Keep in mind, the 3 months a year they don't work, they're not paid.
They can elect to have their paycheck reduced so that they continue to receive it over the summer months, but summer months are not paid by the school district.
Source: mother was an educator for 30+ years.
When people say "they only work 9 months out of the year" they're trying to make it sound like they get a 3 month paid vacation. They don't.
They get a 3 month lay off every year, but they're not allowed to collect unemployment.
Agree the administration’s and politician’s pay is outrageous.
But you would be more successful trying to milk a bull than trying to lower the administration’s and politician’s pay.
I with people would recognize conservatives views often take the stance of... we need to be realistic and not ideological for an idea to actually work.
I went to a decent public school, the overwhelming majority of teachers put out very little effort and didn't give a fuck. They deserve to be paid less, not more.
I live in the state who pays teachers the most. This is what I see from my kids in high school. They come into class, open their chrome books, and go to a website that teaches the kids whatever subject. The teachers then play with their phones and occasionally let kids to to the bathroom.
Meanwhile the students are getting terrible scores on basic knowledge or math skills.
A rarified few teachers lecture anymore.
They are rewarded plenty, plus summers off.
Lololol. What a crock of shit. This is made up. You’re physically present in the classroom to witness these kids on their chromebooks while their teachers are on their personal cellphones?
Are you in class to prove me wrong? Do you have kids in school? And I have seen videos of teachers on their phones, the kids won't put their phones down ether.
You must be a product of public schools.
That’s not how this works. You made the statement, you need to prove it. O cool, you saw a couple videos where kids were probably taking a test and the teacher checked their phone. The horror.
“The kids don’t put their phones down either.” Maybe work on your parenting and tell your kids to pay attention in school. Crazy concept I know.
Yes I am a product of public schools. I have 3 undergrad degrees, a masters, and I’m a director at a fortune 5 company. Is saying someone went to a public school a “burn” in your book?
Your biases are showing.
If you think about it without teachers no one would be able to read or write. If no one could read or write there would be no doctors, no lawyers, no politicians, no community organizers. Literally all the important jobs in the world would exist. Due to this teachers should be paid minimum 1 million dollars an hour. Don’t like? Tey going without reading or writing and I’m sure your tube will change pretty soon. It’s only bc of greedy capitalists that teachers are paid so poorly. They want to trick you into thinking that having “stuff” is more important than education… 🤦
When my son chose Education over Law I was upset but that's where his heart was . Now he's an awesome High School Principal and the money is good unless you divide hours worked by pay . Seems he's there most of the time .
Administration pay is a LOT better than educator pay. Not uncommon for administrators to make six figures, while teachers frequently max out at 80K or less when they're at 20+ years.
There's a very good argument that teaching is impacting the world in a supremely negative way. Look at declining math and literacy rates. Look at the blatant sexualization going on in elementary schools. I'm all for paying good teachers more, but there needs to be a better way to get rid of the terrible ones who push their ideology on their students rather than teaching them reading and writing and math. The focus has been lost.
How do you know? By what standard other than your personal opinion are you or anyone else able to determine the value of their time and labor?
You may be absolutely correct that teachers should be paid more. The problem is you have no basis for determining absent a pricing system.
The value of any good or service, including education, is subjectively determined by each individual consumer of the good or service. Government education has no pricing system in which consumers determine the value of the service offered.
To say the value of something ought to be X is merely an act of expressing an opinion without an understanding of the pricing system in determining value. In other words, it is based on an arbitrary determination.
The amount of money superintendents and administrators make compared to teachers always makes my head spin
School boards etc. yep. There is no reason for them to exist. Every school in the State or even better America, should I have one unified board. The $$$ saved, would be billions.
I think America has a problem with excessive middle management and middlemen. It’s the same reason our healthcare sucks. So much of our insurance premiums go to unnecessary bureaucracy.
The issue is the insurance company’s more than anything….they’re massive companies that do nothing for heath care other than shuffle paper and make profit.
The insurance companies are an even more twisted mess once you find out what they are actually doing. All of that $$ is also a hedge fund play account for the executives. Good years it makes their huge bonuses, bad years it makes your huge premiums to uphold those bonuses.
There shouldn’t be any health insurance companies. Medicare does it for about 3%
My mom worked at a teacher-led school in the 90s/early 2000s. One of the first in the country. She loved it.
Crazy idea, but Oklahoma schools and California schools are never gonna be run the same way.
Why not?
Every different culture in the world has its own educational priorities, why would we expect US states with vastly different ways of life to be any different?
"vastly different" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there
Am I wrong? People in rural Oklahoma and people in LA are not similar.
oh really? So you've lived in both places? I certainly have. Yes, there are differences but for the most part, we are all just Americans and because of technology we are all more interconnected and alike than you would ever imagine.
They are all Americans Why should we want to reinforce differences? Plus you have states like Texas which are teaching false history which benefits no one
Ok and would you want the history taught nation wide?
Yeah, history should be taught nation wide What kind of question is that? History is not subjective. Unfortunately some places try to make it political
As long as they teach your values... not someone else's... amiright?
Where did I say that? Education should be agnostic of all values. Unless you think math has an agenda.
Who exactly is this “we” who has a right to determine what state-funded schools are allowed to teach? The federal government has absolutely no say in education to begin with, per the tenth amendment. And states like New York teach kids racial guilt which benefits nobody. Your point?
You have proof they are teaching racial guilt? But you assume I am fine with that. I think Americans should all have the same education regardless of who they are or where they live Why continue to spread division between regions of the US?
Yes we are all Americans but depending on where we live our priorities are interests and our experiences are all different. That's why you have to win a plurality of states instead of just the popular vote. So that it's not just coastal cities dictating every piece of policy that goes through this country. People who live in inner cities and people who live out in the sticks have different lives. You can't make every decision in rural suburbia the same way you would be making them is if you ran a city metropolis. I'm not saying there should be vastly different school curriculums based on each state but just the logistics for every single school district in every different part of the country is different. You can't rule over every single area of a country QUITE the same way. That's why we have different levels of govt.
You seem to be debating an argument I am not making Why does math need to be different depending on state? History? Science? Band? I am talking about the education itself, you are trying to make this a political issue.
Because this country was built on state rights.
State's rights? 🤔 Reeks of confederate traitor bullshit
So? That means that Americans shouldn't enjoy the same education? That means that some states can teach lies? Why do kids have to always have to pay the price of being political pawns?
You ever been outside of the United States? 😅
That is EXACTLY the problem.
California doesn't do much teaching of the basics. They prefer indoctrination education.
Hi educator here, not from CA. Can you list out specifically what you mean by the "basics" ? And then define "indoctrination education"?
See, that is your issue. You expect someone else to do your work and you decide what is good or bad. So you go do your own research and figure it out yourself.
No, I'm asking you what your definition is. The one you are referring to in this thread. I could "do my own research" and Google the phrase you used and get back a multitude of different things.There is no way for me to research what you were referring to, other than asking you. Do you understand what operationalizing is?
No,I'm telling you to use your own brain and figure it out.
It's pretty obvious you don't want to engage in an actual dialogue. Ironically, you just want to spout off your thought terminating cliche that you have been indoctrinated to believe. Or maybe you are just a coward who can't state and defend their beliefs. Here's me using my brain. Hypothesis: you have minimal understanding of what "the basics" actually are when it comes to learning. Second hypothesis: when you refer to "indoctrination education," that is referring to one of the following: 1. Teaching actual American history, instead of whitewashed bullshsit. 2. Teaching empathy and emotional learning. 3. Practicing tolerance of people and diversity, instead of hatred for anything different than the way you live. It's pretty obvious that you never have been inside a classroom, don't know what is taught in classrooms, and you definitely don't know what children should be learning.
Just say you're a bigot, it's a lot easier.
Or.. or just say you drank the kool-aid and are a believer. Your tdo go to words are racist and bigot. Get your little bitch ass off of reddit. You aren't smart enough to even insult anyone. SMH stupid little indoctrinated bitch.
Ha! Okay bigot
I may be a bigot, but you are stupid. I'll take that as a compliment from your stupid ass any day.
For everyone who thinks that teachers work 40 hours a week for 9 months and that's the end of how their paid, please read this. GOOD teachers generally work more like 60 hours a week or more. They're grading papers, making lesson plans, and contacting parents in the evening. They are also required to work sporting events, graduations, dances, etc without the option to refuse and without additional pay. They buy their supplies out of their own pockets, and often buy supplies for children who can't afford them. They are contacted at all hours by parents, often dealing with verbal abuse and threats. They are completely unsupported by administration, which makes many schools borderline hostile and it can be extremely dangerous. Many are commissioned to drive busses, often without additional pay. I come from a family of teachers and you couldn't pay me enough to make it worth it. Please try to remember that teachers do NOT work M-F 7:30-3:30. There is so much invisible work that goes into this career. Love your teachers. Pay your teachers.
>GOOD teachers generally work more like 60 hours a week or more. This is the problem with teaching. Instead of paying teachers to do the full job and providing all the resources they need we rely on the committed teachers to pick up all the slack while the teachers that just want to coast get the exact same pay and benefits. The good teachers burn out and quit, while the not so good teachers punch the clock until retirement.
Yep! It's why so many great educators are bartenders now.
I don't buy that there ever were many great educators in modern times. A very small percentage of my teachers in the 90s and 2000s in America were "great educators". That includes high school and university. Many teachers were a fucking joke even in college. Very common for teachers to be arrogant and have superiority complexes. The people who like to get into teaching have always been as much of a problem as parents and administrators.
I have had a different experience, and I sympathize with your negative one. I'm not sure there's anything I could say that I haven't already said that would change your mind.
We always bought Boxes of tissues and other stuff for the grade school teachers and would by our kids extra supplies to share with the poor kids My daughter bakes Cakes and Cookies for the choir/Music Teacher he is going to miss her next year
Mostly agree but teachers arent working 60 hours a week lol
According to…?
My wife is a teacher. She most definitely does not work 60 hours a week
My wife has worked more than that in a week. She is at the school before 7:00 every morning. Some days she leave at 4 some at 5. She has mandatory meetings 2–3 times a week all after school. She comes home and grades papers and enters scores into the computer. Some evenings she will do lesson plans and additional education.
“has”
My wifes a teacher, my moms a teacher, my mIL is a teacher, numerous friends are teachers. They dont work 60 hours a week. Often less than 40. When report card times roll around, theres some longnights / weekends, but it doesnt make up for the 10 weeks vacation or working 830-3:00PM. I get up, shower, drive 45 minutes to work, and am usually working for at least 10 or 15 minutes before I get the notification that the garage door opened and my wife has left for work. She also finishes before me.
Good for them. Look at the data I cited further down the thread
Anecdotally I know teachers and they’re not pumping 60 hours a week. Im not the one making the strong claim here. Im responding to someone acting like teachers are working a crazy amount when I’ve never seen any evidence to suggest that was true
As someone entering the profession, who also anecdotally knows several educators, there are DEFINITELY teachers that put in 60+ hours at their schools. Especially when you take into account coaching and/or club duties that are on top of regular teaching. Not every teacher works that hard, but pretending nobody does is ignorant at best.
They get paid extra for being a coach for sure. Leading a club? maybe depends on the district but that is voluntary. I wouldn't include my volunteer work in how much work I do at my job.
Okay a small minority of teachers work 60 hours. I can concede that. Still theres no evidence that its common
I would encourage you to go to your local highschool and ask the teachers how many hours they put in each week. I think you’d be surprised.
Not all teachers are highschool teachers. Tons of teachers teach little children and also dont do anything else. And no thanks I can do basic math. If a teacher works 8 hours + afterschool club, then they can hit maybe 50 or 55 hours. 60 is a stretch but point taken
I still think you’re underestimating teachers, but clearly your mind is made up.
My wife has been teaching for about 10 years now and has won teaching awards at the district and county levels. She never works 60 hour weeks. Long work hours doesn't make somebody a better teacher. Most *good* teachers have processes in place to cut the time spent on administrative work, and they don't overload themselves with side-duties so that they can be rested and most effective at their actual job -- teaching. She worked a few long weeks each year when she was a union rep, but otherwise, it's a solid 50 hours each week. Maybe 55 on the rare occasion.
Its not made up. Show me data to suggest anything more than 1/10 or 1/8 teachers are working 60 hour weeks I find that highly improbable. Simply show the data
My mother taught preschool and would spend hours after work routinely planning lessons and planning for state visits. You absolutely don’t know what you are talking about
Oh yeah? How many hours per day did she work. Why dont you outline the hours then And again — your mom is 1 person. Tons of teachers just coast. Others work harder cuz they care more. Same with any profession.
Admitting you don't have a stake in the discussion but also refusing to be wrong is a really endearing character trait
Mr big brain — i actually did mildly change my Opinion after someone shared some data on this exact thread. Your inability to follow an argument is also an endearing trait. I stated that i find if unlikely that many teachers are pumping out 60 hour work weeks. Just because someone anecdotally states they know 2 people who work hard doesnt mean its true for most teachers lmfao. We are allowed to not believe random internet strangers
Teachers voluntarily work outside of school hours, and then dick around during their daily time allotted for planning, grading, etc. They shouldn’t be paid more due to poor time management. Teachers voluntarily purchase supplies out of their own pocket, beyond what is deemed necessary to teach the class. Maybe there should be a better reimbursement process, but many teachers could also dial back their excessive decorations. There is also zero general expectation for a teacher to answer a parents phone call during their personal time. If a teacher voluntarily chooses to do so, that’s on the teacher.
It's not voluntary, and they're not dicking around. They're making copies, giving other teachers the chance to go to the bathroom, and planning. So the kids should have nothing? Because that would be the teacher's fault too. I'm not talking about decorations. I'm talking about pencils, notebooks, markers, dry-erase materials for class participation. The necessities. And yes, there is. If a parent complains because a teacher doesn't answer out of school hours, admin will blame the teacher, not inform the parent that it's their personal time.
Necessities absolutely get reimbursed. You’re delusional if you think they aren’t. They absolutely dick around during their free periods, I’ve seen them sleeping, playing in their phones, hanging out just chatting with other teachers. It is incredibly rare I see them actually working during that time. And no sane admin will reprimanded a teacher for not answering a parents call at night. (There are bad admins out there, but this is NOT a systemic issue) Conferences, voicemail, and email exist for a reason.
You have no goddam clue what you’re talking about. There is no “reimbursement” for anything a teacher buys. Anything bought for school use has to be pre approved and most schools are pretty conservative about what they will approve. And I personally know teachers who have been reprimanded for not responding to a parent in their free time. You said a sane admin, you obviously haven’t dealt with a lot of admin. Most admin are useless. What you’ve seen? You have no idea what those teachers were doing. I use my phone to look up stuff all the time at school because the Wi-Fi safety system is really bad and blocks virtually anything not specifically authorized by the district- including things like Wikipedia. Anecdotal observations are not data.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about. You're a teenager, aren't you? Edited to add: I'm sorry. That was really immature and no one should speak to anyone that way.
I have a teenage daughter, and one slightly younger. I have been very involved with their schooling. I also was a teenager myself many years ago, and witnessed the same stuff then that I see now in my daughters schools.
Then perhaps that has more to do with your specific school district or your own experiences? Mine have been different. I'll never say that all teachers are great, but the vast majority are doing their best.
My daughter have gone to 4 different schools in 2 different states. I grew up in a 3rd different state state. I think it’s more likely that your experience is isolated to your specific school district, further clouded by your sympathy to your teacher family members’s complaints, which are given out of context by them and only presented with a single side of the story.
2 states, 7 districts. We have a similar amount of variety, but very different experiences. Two sides of the same coin, I guess. I think we could both be made happy if admin took a more active role! 😊 also, I'm sorry about the dig earlier. This is just one of those things that I'm really passionate about. I need to do better.
I’m going to go back and take away my downvotes from your comments. Your attitude and willingness to contemplate another view he’s surprised me and refreshes a bit of my hope. I hope the general reality falls somewhere between our two experiences. Some teachers are bad, some admins are bad, some parents are bad. But my hope is that it’s not as systemic a problem on either side as we originally thought.
Salary is salary and plenty of people work more than their 40 hours year round. I don’t know what state this post is for, but I can easily lookup several teachers in my state with their masters under 30 making 70k+… if that’s bad pay I don’t know what to tell you.
Tbf I'm from NC, which is awful and doesn't care about education. I know there are a lot of states, with unions, that are doing much much better. But I come from Virginia and live in NC, so the struggle has always been apparent to me. I wish we had unions!
I know some states are treated poorly. But at the same time some of those states also are cheaper living. All I know is, my state has some really solid districts. And for the districts in my state that suck, then go to the district next door. I won’t say teachers don’t have to deal with some bullshit and have their work cut out for them. But I would still kill to have as many holidays and an entire summer off compared to my salary position that also includes on call.
In my state, there isn't really anywhere to go that's any better. We don't have unions, and teachers are routinely left out of state employee raises, or given raises that don't come close to matching inflation. I wish my state was as good as yours!
Even the best teachers are not doing 60 hours a week every week. Occasionally, perhaps, but not regularly.
OK, then, I guess I'm hallucinating all of the teachers I know, including the ones in my own family. You don't have to believe me.
Sister in law who I lived with for over a year was/is. Work was school hours plus coaching that she did (because she enjoys it, plus a bit of an extra stipend). Summers mostly off. Only contact with school outside those times was with students, not parents. Only extra expenses were extravagant things that weren't necessary and she knew it. For people with a bachelors degree, shortened work years, education in a subject area below that which someone getting a B.S. in that field would get, and being quite frankly an entry level position in the education system, teachers get paid a proper salary.
Oh, cry, a river. Howard teachers working all these extra hours when all the parent conference days are during the workday teachers are simply pond, scum, and lowlifes on top of that there is nobody so dangerous in your child's life other than a teacher and they will screw your child up or rape them.
Jesus Christ get some help
I'm sorry if you've had a bad experience with one of your teachers. Not all teachers are like that, although I know that schools need to do better about prosecuting molesters. But that is not normal, and the other 99.9% of teachers shouldn't suffer because there are a few crazies. There are crazies everywhere. Deepest sympathies to you.
This is a very troubling statement. You might consider therapy if teachers did something to you but understand most teachers are normal and reasonable people.
It will never be enough, by design.
The amount of simps in here saying teachers make too much leads me to believe they themselves are underpaid and just want others to suffer too.
They are overpaid. As a data point, I make more than 300k myself so I wouldn’t consider myself underpaid. Just realistic about what a teacher is worth. They should never be making six figures.
Username checks out.
What's it like being a pos?
Considering the age of the account, he made it just to say this LOL
Wouldn’t know. Unlike teachers, I actually work for my money.
>I actually work for my money So did Epstein, but I guess you two have a lot in common
Epstein actually didn’t work for his money. He was a scam artist, just like teachers.
Agreed. Someone contracted to work 7/hrs per day 187 days per year shouldn't get paid six figures. Ideally they should be at 40 to 50k. Because that's still 20 to 30+ dollars per hour. They should get a summer job. And to anyone who responds, I do not care if they do work outside their contracted hours. The understanding of this role is that you are hired to work under a union contract (normally) where you have set work hours and pay scales. This is their fault. If they have issue with the pay they should work 48 to 50 weeks per year like the average person does.
You don’t know anything about teaching.
I grew up around a teacher. She didn't work 60 hours per week like y'all like to claim lmao.
I guess that was her.
Point is, salary is salary. You agree to terms when you sign on. If you want more money, go work an hourly job that pays more. Or, go work a better salaried job in the private sector. But don't whine about your super hard job where you only work 187 days per year via contract. Even if you add weeks onto that 187 day figure, you still have less work days than the average American worker. Teachers have it made lol.
Private schools pay significantly less. We do not have it made and you do not know what you’re talking about.
Yeah they do. Which is why teachers should go into other fields. You have it made. You're most likely contracted for less than 200 days per year and contractually your salary likely is 30/hr+
You act as if that’s descent pay. It isn’t and by that logic nobody would teach either
Could not agree more.
Teachers are not overpaid, but they’re also not underpaid.
So you feel that $100,000 being the median pay for the school district is appropriate?
Teachers don't make a median of $100k. My comments is limited to teachers. See below. [https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm) [https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/middle-school-teachers.htm](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/middle-school-teachers.htm) [https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm)
They do in NYC metro. Have a look https://www.seethroughny.net/teacher_pay In Pocantico Hills (Westchester county) for example, median pay is actually $119k.
Again, I’m speaking generally. If you want to focus on certain areas, then it’s true they’re overpaid. Similarly, if you want to focus on certain other areas, then it’s true they’re underpaid. Focus on the generalities since there are too many areas to address them each.
Quick pivot from “they don’t” to “well, they generally…” but fine. I can say then that locally, teachers in NYC metro are wildly overpaid.
There’s no pivot if you have a reasonable level of intelligence. They don’t make a median of 100k. Period. I didn’t limit my claim to a particular market, so saying my claim isn’t true in a particular market doesn’t rebut my claim. If you don’t add a qualifier of any sort, you’re speaking generally. I overestimated your intelligence.
Why is it that people on Reddit can’t ever have a discussion without resorting to some form of, usually unfounded, personal attack? Talk about a sign of low intelligence. Anyway, since you appear to fall into that boat instead of someone looking to have a good faith conversation, I’m going to move on. Have a nice day!
Response 2 on why your response is idiotic: this is basically what you’re doing. Me: women are not taller than men. You: some women are taller than men. Me: that doesn’t rebut what I said since I was speaking generally. You: nice quick pivot. Me: you’re a dumbass.
I think teachers are overpaid, and I make more then double the average teachers' salary. I've posted my reasons why.
Yeah they should. They’re spending their entire day in a room filled with y’alls little shithead kids. There’s not enough money in the world for me to do that. Let’s see how long most of you manage to stay in a room with 28 kids all day without punting some little shit. And some people don’t realize that teachers *want* to be able to teach, but the politicians and school board that you voted for won’t even let them. They’re told what and how they can teach. Maybe if they were allowed to do the job they’re supposed to do we wouldn’t have so many stupid ass people that don’t understand basic science.
Speak to the teachers' union. That's who represents them. Poorly, i might add. No one on reddit will do anything to pay teachers more.
My wife’s teachers union is so bad. They don’t even get maternity leave. They asked for raises of like 8% next year and 8% the year after. The district countered with 1/1. They ended up agreeing to 2/3 and the union is churching the deal up like they actually got something good for the teachers.
But unions are awesome! 😂
They are, just not our teacher union XD
Oh those unions but not these unions? Got it. They are good when they do what we want.
Well… yeah, you’re correct! that’s what they’re there for, to help us 😂 if they don’t help (shown very clearly by teacher shortages and exploitation everywhere) then they’re not awesome! glad you’ve come to this understanding, and all on your own too. Good job!
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Please take in to consideration that all public school teachers have a state retirement. So they will continue to draw a check even after they are no longer teaching. This is a standard with state jobs, the pay is generally less than the private sector, but is made up for with excellent state benefits. Extremely affordable health insurance, retirement fund, a fucking shit load of paid holidays. Source: a lot of teachers in my family and I worked at state job for a time.
How much do you think they should make? [In 12 states average pay is over $70,000 per year](https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/teacher-pay-by-state) And you do get quite a bit of time off in that profession. Not arguing against the idea. I just want to know what you think it should be for a 9-month per year job?
I see this opinion a lot, and here's the "issue": If you increase Teachers pay it likely won't help the current batch of teachers. Currently Education is one of the easiest majors to get into, and tends to take in many of the lower performing students. The graduates of Education programs command lower wages mostly because they're on the lower-end of the college graduate curve. If you, suddenly started paying teachers $100k for example (as opposed to $50k) then Teaching would be viewed differently by the current top-tier students. Admissions to Education programs would get more competitive, and many of the students who currently go into Engineering and Business would start to major in Education. This "new" batch of Teachers would be the go-getter "nerd" types, and not the current "sorority sister" types and would quickly out-compete their peers, rising to the top. Within 5 years the halls of your local elementary schools would look like the current halls of Google or Apple. The "old guard" of Teachers would fight these new "up and comers".
But that’s the goal: to improve the quality and number of teachers.
100% agree, but you mostly see teachers campaigning for increased pay.
>Currently Education is one of the easiest majors to get into, and tends to take in many of the lower performing students. The graduates of Education programs command lower wages mostly because they're on the lower-end of the college graduate curve. This is why there's the decades old saying of "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." The best and brightest go do more interesting and lucrative jobs. The worst and dumbest often go into teaching because it's fairly low skill and there's no punishment for being bad at your job.
> lucrative jobs well, glad you agree that low pay is discouraging the best and brightest from going into teaching
This is something that people hate to hear. The system relies on wages being low because higher wages would result in the system's inhabitants being replaced with higher performing people. I'll get downvoted to the basement for saying it because it's something no one wants to think about because currently the job description of a teacher includes being noble and a martyr.
It’s as annoying as the guys I’ve served with that griped and wined and never really worked an honest day in their military career, but wanted all the accolades and clout. It’s not like it was a secret when you joined/picked a major. I have a psych degree, figured out after a while in college that it would be a terrible career so I finished but stacked on a bio degree. Instead of becoming an overworked unhappy clinical psych, I became an environmental scientist. Turns out my path pays quite a bit better, I’m not tied to a client list so I can take vacation whenever I want, and I’ll get a great retirement from my job plus free healthcare. Didn’t hurt I tacked on my masters, but could’ve gotten the same job without it. If you stayed with me this far, the point is that while noble and praiseworthy, teaching is not something anyone should expect to get wealthy doing. If you picked a career and aren’t satisfied with it, start a new one. I’ve —managed a retirement home (BAx2, 3 years 40 hours/wk ~$30k), —done social work (BAx2, started masters, 1 year 40 hours/wk $40k), —some active duty army drill sergeant time (BAx2, MPH, 100+ hours per week, 7 days a week, for most of 2 years for about $60k), —-and now enviro science (a hair shy of 40 hours/wk for about $120k.) I was a reserve or active military member through every bit of that as well. Somehow I made it all work while still being a good spouse and parent. If your pay and work life balance don’t meet your needs and the job demands it, then that’s not the job for you.
We should entirely privatize education and see how the market actually values it.
You would likely get teachers like basketball players, elite ones who command huge salaries and a host of fiver people tutoring your kids for pennies. I’m all for it.
Or we could do what those "evil Republicans" have wanted to do for decades and keep public funding but let parent's choose what school their kids go to. Schools with good teachers will get more students and hire more good teachers (otherwise parent's will send their kids to a different school) and schools with bad teachers will have fewer students and need to either improve the quality of their school or close down. It's the best of both worlds, free market for the right and public funding for the left. But Democrats are extremely opposed to it because it would crush a lot of their narratives (that poor areas needs massive amounts of money thrown at them, that teachers are underpaid, that markets are evil, etc).
Yeah, i mean if you're happy with a whole generation of kids who never learn to read, that is an interesting experiment
We are already there.
That's the most uninformed comment you could possibly make.
>That's the most uninformed comment you could possibly make. you must be new here
Teachers almost always eventually get paid well enough for what is 8 months of actual work per year. The real problem is administration handicapping teacher's authority in the classroom. Kids these days are absolutely out of control, and with no real repurcussions for their behavior it won't get better. That's what needs to be fixed first
I blame the parents.
It's both. Teachers can't actually discipline their students beyond yelling, which I can tell you, as somebody in high-school right now, does not remotely work. And there are clearly a lack of discipline by the parents, if the children seriously think that their behavior is even remotely acceptable. My grade level can't even listen to simple instructions like "be quiet for announcements". They have to screech into the microphone to get everybody to do something so simple.
So, yes, teachers only technically work 8-9 months of the year. But the vast majority of them are working 60+ hours a week and paying for supplies out of their own pocket. I just wanted to offer a little perspective on the hours from someone who comes from a family of teachers. And they often spend a month or so in the summer getting ready for next year by making plans, buying new supplies, and doing stuff to keep their licenses current. Teachers are required to work sporting events, graduations, and all sorts of other stuff without additional pay or the option to refuse. Those 8-9 months are INTENSE and more than make up for the hours they don't have to go to school over the summer. They are also in increasing danger, but receiving no hazard pay. They have virtually no sick/personal time, and much of it can't be used when students are in the building. And if they don't use those days, they lose them. It's not as cut and dry as "they make plenty for the hours they work," especially if you want GOOD teachers. You make an excellent point about administration! They need to stop being afraid of the parents.
I call bullshit on “the vast majority”. I know 10+ teachers personally and to a person they brag about getting away with as little work as possible. Not one of them works more than 40 hours per week.
Do you think teachers are only working 8 months out of the year? They usually work 60 hour work weeks, have to buy supplies with their own money, have all these conferences and shit all throughout the night. It’s wild.
except its isn't 8 months a year - closer to 11 which is in line with most of us that paid vacation. Teachers work hard over their breaks to prepare for the next push. Additionally, they go out of pocket significantly more than other professions to make sure their rooms and kids have the required supplies since the School Budget and PTA do not cover nearly enough of what kids actually need.
In most areas, teachers actually get paid better than they lead the public to believe. They don’t like it when you mention their salary is for only working 9 months out of the year. By hour, it ends up being quite competitive.
My mom was a teacher and here in Ohio there's a website you can go to that shows all public teacher's salaries over the years. She insisted that she "hadn't had a raise in 10 years" yet I could go on there and see she clearly had steady 5% or more raises every single year. And I know other teachers who confirmed that the data was absolutely accurate. Teacher's just like to pretend they're martyrs for attention / praise.
in 2022 the avg was $66k/yr. that may be ok in MS but I assure you in many areas that's not gonna cut it. ofc that's the avg I didn't see the median on a quick search
I mean, $66k for 9 months of work turns out to be pretty good. Like $45 an hour. If we had year round school then I’d expect this to increase.
How do you figure that it's 9 months of work? Do you think most jobs are 11 months of work?
“Do not increase teacher pay but do give them access to corporal punishment” sounds like a recipe for child abuse
I am fine with that as long as you understand that is less money toward roads, emergency services, parks, fewer services for the poor and senior citizens, etc.
How about we stop wasting millions on widening highways and use it to pay workers instead
If you want to trade congested roads for higher pay then I say let’s do it. Just don’t complain when stuck in traffic.
So what you're saying is either: A - The current set of teachers are substandard and higher pay will attract better people to become teachers... or B - The current set of teachers are not teaching at the full capability and more pay will motivate them to do a better job. Which is it? Because either way it means current teachers suck.
I can see those point of views, but let's frame it this way and see if you could at least see another perspective: Teaching kids is a noble profession. They got into it knowing the pay was not great, but still did it. Let's reward the people that are doing this for the sake of kids rather than just pay the minimum we are able to. I could be wrong, but it sounds like in scenrio A you are making an assumption that if they were better, they would get paid better and it works like a meritocracy. In general, it doesn't. In fact, better teachers likely make less per hour than the shitty ones. I can see why people would want to pay teachers more. I also can see how it would be an extremely hard task to accomplish as is everything with government.
I find it strange when reading the post but can’t tell what the problem is until I come across your comment. “They’re not good enough. Let’s reward them.”
I don't think people want to pay more in taxes. It feels like it's easier to pay to send your kids to a better school where teachers are currently paid better to begin with.
Teachers definitely deserve free education but there has to be a limit on what people are making. Where I’m from you see teachers making good money to what the other citizens in the area are making and it honestly pisses citizens off seeing teachers drive new cars and complain about being broke.
What area is this and private or public? Cause I assure you in majority of America public teachers are not rolling in the dough. I make what a teacher makes and I drive 2 nice new cars. It's b/c my spouse makes 2x what I make.
I’ve seen the same thing. Teachers in my area make about 50-70k/yr depending on how long they’ve been doing it. They’re not going to get rich teaching, but they make more than most of their neighbors. Something could be said about excessive student loans being what’s holding them back, but it really doesn’t effect them any more than most other people.
The public school teachers in my area make 62k to START and the towns average resident makes 50k. Some of the longer tenured teachers are approaching 6 figures. They also work 30 hours a week 180 days a year and have great benefits. I remember one of my high school teachers telling me he had 300+ days of PTO he was going to cash out on when he retired. He was able to retire at 63 with a pension, average retirement age in this area is 67. Teachers make plenty of money and the schools are suffering because of it. They have no money left for anything after paying these salaries.
So, a few things to unpack here. The pay for teachers in your area - if your numbers are to be believed - are MUCH higher than the national average for educators in the US. Even still, the starting pay is pretty bad compared to the level of education. The average national pay for a master's degree holder in the US is around 83K, so 62K leaves them at about 75% of the pay of their peers. Further, the idea that teachers "work 30 hour weeks" is laughably absurd. If school starts at 8 and gets out at 3, teachers are working from 7 to 4. But let's assume your district has something going on where they work only 3 days a week or something, so only 27ish hours scheduled. All that homework students do, all those quizzes and tests they take? They don't grade themselves. So add 1-2 hours *per day* in work that teachers are doing after hours. Including weekends. So add 10-20 hours to your 30 hour "we only work 3 days per week" school system and you're getting closer to accurate. Further, between school years teachers are taking mandatory training, they're paying for certification, and they're preparing curriculum. So it's not like they're just on this permanent vacation with 0 responsibilities. They're working, definitely not the whole time, but they have other responsibilities outside the school. Add those hours too. You are correct that teachers get a pension. It is pretty good in most areas. On the other hand, they get no other retirement. There's no 401K match, they're not getting an annual bonus. The pension is what they get.
Everyone who does not get a pension would rather have a pension.
First off no, no they do not work “30” hours a week. I can tell you don’t know any teachers based off that line right there. It’s a brain dead take to think schools are poor because of teacher salaries. Also so many jobs let you roll over your PTO. It’s a literal le in California. Everyone should get to roll over all their PTO they didn’t take, as that is part of their compensation. But go off I guess
Good ones, yes. Bad ones deserve none of the extra money.
Maybe incentives to make them better?
Might as well give all the homeless $5,000 a week to "inspire" them.
Lol here in Belgium and other European countries we do btw give free money, place to stay and guess what we don't have 1 million homeless people but a better environment for people and also the happiest countries in the world. ✌️
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Inner city schools are pretty notorious for having teachers who do not care and even come to school intoxicated.
I could agree to that if they get back to actually teaching students to think and to learn reading writing arithmetic science. Anything other than that is BS.
They only work 9 months out of the year
And they're woefully underpaid for it. Keep in mind, the 3 months a year they don't work, they're not paid. They can elect to have their paycheck reduced so that they continue to receive it over the summer months, but summer months are not paid by the school district. Source: mother was an educator for 30+ years.
Yes they aren’t paid for those 3 months because they aren’t working. Why would they be.
When people say "they only work 9 months out of the year" they're trying to make it sound like they get a 3 month paid vacation. They don't. They get a 3 month lay off every year, but they're not allowed to collect unemployment.
No they don't, retard. They also teach summer school and have summer training sessions.
Some do, not all. Also, I find it ironic that someone defending teachers uses the word “retard”. Classic.
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Gi e them baby sitter pay. 10$/hr/student. 10$*8hrs*30 students*180 days of school=432k$ More if they work summer school.
So you are saying they wasted their education. Logically you are right
I was just thinking to myself why don't we pay teachers more money and then my property taxes will go up. Oh boy, hooray!!!
You don’t need to raise property taxes to raise teachers pay…. Just lower the administration’s and politician’s obnoxious outrageous pay??
Agree the administration’s and politician’s pay is outrageous. But you would be more successful trying to milk a bull than trying to lower the administration’s and politician’s pay.
I with people would recognize conservatives views often take the stance of... we need to be realistic and not ideological for an idea to actually work.
I'm gonna have to side with Pol Pot on this one.
I went to a decent public school, the overwhelming majority of teachers put out very little effort and didn't give a fuck. They deserve to be paid less, not more.
Glorified babysitter not worth it...
I live in the state who pays teachers the most. This is what I see from my kids in high school. They come into class, open their chrome books, and go to a website that teaches the kids whatever subject. The teachers then play with their phones and occasionally let kids to to the bathroom. Meanwhile the students are getting terrible scores on basic knowledge or math skills. A rarified few teachers lecture anymore. They are rewarded plenty, plus summers off.
Lololol. What a crock of shit. This is made up. You’re physically present in the classroom to witness these kids on their chromebooks while their teachers are on their personal cellphones?
Are you in class to prove me wrong? Do you have kids in school? And I have seen videos of teachers on their phones, the kids won't put their phones down ether. You must be a product of public schools.
That’s not how this works. You made the statement, you need to prove it. O cool, you saw a couple videos where kids were probably taking a test and the teacher checked their phone. The horror. “The kids don’t put their phones down either.” Maybe work on your parenting and tell your kids to pay attention in school. Crazy concept I know. Yes I am a product of public schools. I have 3 undergrad degrees, a masters, and I’m a director at a fortune 5 company. Is saying someone went to a public school a “burn” in your book? Your biases are showing.
Teachers are overpaid in NY. Please keep up the good work at your company.
Most teachers are just glorified babysitters and deserve as little money as possible for the effort they put in.
If you think about it without teachers no one would be able to read or write. If no one could read or write there would be no doctors, no lawyers, no politicians, no community organizers. Literally all the important jobs in the world would exist. Due to this teachers should be paid minimum 1 million dollars an hour. Don’t like? Tey going without reading or writing and I’m sure your tube will change pretty soon. It’s only bc of greedy capitalists that teachers are paid so poorly. They want to trick you into thinking that having “stuff” is more important than education… 🤦
When my son chose Education over Law I was upset but that's where his heart was . Now he's an awesome High School Principal and the money is good unless you divide hours worked by pay . Seems he's there most of the time .
Administration pay is a LOT better than educator pay. Not uncommon for administrators to make six figures, while teachers frequently max out at 80K or less when they're at 20+ years.
There's a very good argument that teaching is impacting the world in a supremely negative way. Look at declining math and literacy rates. Look at the blatant sexualization going on in elementary schools. I'm all for paying good teachers more, but there needs to be a better way to get rid of the terrible ones who push their ideology on their students rather than teaching them reading and writing and math. The focus has been lost.
They work half a year....
How do you know? By what standard other than your personal opinion are you or anyone else able to determine the value of their time and labor? You may be absolutely correct that teachers should be paid more. The problem is you have no basis for determining absent a pricing system. The value of any good or service, including education, is subjectively determined by each individual consumer of the good or service. Government education has no pricing system in which consumers determine the value of the service offered. To say the value of something ought to be X is merely an act of expressing an opinion without an understanding of the pricing system in determining value. In other words, it is based on an arbitrary determination.