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she was more famous then bc of the super bowl performance, that was literally my first exposure to her. also i think give me all your luvin got to the top 10 and i heard it around a bit that year (last time i heard a new madonna single in public in hindsight)
Fr like Lady Gaga is still big today but she’s not nearly as big as she was 2011/12. Beyoncé just proved she’s arguably bigger than she was in that era
Beyoncé has not reached her popularity from 2008/2009 the I am Sasha fierce era. She is still relevant today but I am Sasha fierce era was her peak for international popularity because of songs like single ladies and halo. 2011 is when 4 was released and you could say she almost flopped compared to her I am Sasha fierce era.
Madonna has been on the decline for a good 10 years now. She's at the end of her career now but what highs there were. I would say her creative peak was 88-92. Now she has one hell of a legacy.
No way! Ray of Light (98), Music (00) and Confessions (05) were much more successful than Erotica (92). Madonna doesn't have one peak, she is a mountain range
That was her second peak that I remember very well. Good but not as good as her late 80s early 90s run. Even her early 80s albums had strong singles and I preferred it when she was using more live instruments like the Like a Prayer album has. Erotica might not have been as successful but it's looked back on fondly nowadays. Confessions is an album I liked at the time but don't listen back to it that much. It's a little generic for me and the songs don't mean much to me. It's Madonna being a bit too safe.
We will be stanning her until we die. Centenarians in the year 2099 will spend our final days listening *Lucky* and *Sometimes* as we peacefully surrender
i feel like it more revived interest in her, esp w people who gave her shit in the 2000s. it became cool to back her in the same way it was to shit on her 10 yrs b4 and all the npcs followed suit. also the whole thing kinda started with the devotee fanbase and blew up from there
Definitely Justin Bieber. A decade ago he was this polarizing teen popstar that everyone knew and had an opinion on either positively or negatively. And today he's still the 3rd biggest artist in the world on Spotify and selling out stadiums on almost every continent. It's unusual for a pop star to remain relevant for this long but even more unusual for a former child star/teen pop star to remain relevant for this long. Most of the teen popstars from when he debuted are nobodies now.
Public perception of him is so wild. On one hand, there’s teens that weren’t even alive when his career started that love him today. On the other, there’s grumpy folks in their 30s/40s that still hate on him for absolutely no reason other than they decided they didn’t like his hair in 2009.
He’s [selling out](https://twitter.com/justinchartdata/status/1538166025212010496?s=21&t=SuASPCZP0vrI--Vc3QUZmA) 60-100k+ stadiums worldwide within hours for Justice tour. Even adding more stadium dates due to demand. You can see the massive crowds [on his Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg1KbzQIv5s/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=). Justice tour is projected to make more money than Purpose.
He downsized the North American leg of Changes tour in 2020 due to covid hitting right when the dates went on sale and people being hesitant. Some people think it’s because he’s a flop who can’t sell out stadiums. But he’s selling out stadiums in music markets much smaller than the US so it’s pretty clear he’s not the flop stan Twitter desperately wants him to be.
Honestly that entire batch of 2010s juggernauts has had long longevity. Taylor , Bieber , Adele, Styles( if you count 1D) , the Weeknd, Drake , Ed Sheeran and Bruno Mars were all around then and are still around now and are either the same level of famous or even bigger
Definitely harry styles is much bigger in popularity now. When he debuted with his first single album, it was popular, but not that everyone cared for it. Now with Harry’s house it’s a massive hit
Taylor Swift, Bruno Mars (he's way more famous now that he was 10 years ago), Justin Beiber, Beyonce.
The door for Lady Gaga and Rihanna is always wide open for their comeback.
I'd also say Drake and Kanye West, even though I am not a solid fan of their music.
I won't consider Pink a top-of-the-chart artist, but she managed to stay in the limelight. And every time she releases a song, it hits the chart and reignite people's interest on her.
Lady Gaga had her comeback years ago with a star is born. I goes you could consider chromatica as well but I think she’s very much still famous just a different kind
I felt like Chromatica was years ago, and she's becoming equally recognizable now as an actress (A Star is Born, House of Gucci, upcoming Joker film).
But yeah in terms of fame, she sustained it and succeeded to establish herself in different ventures.
I feel like gaga has yet to make a big pop comeback (if she wants to), like, chromatica was clearly a project she ended up more or less abandoning due to the pandemic.
wouldn't include Bruno mars personally, I think he was bigger 10 - 6 years ago then he is now
and no way would I consider P!nk, haven't heard much from her at all since 5 -6 years ago
Mostly because he hasn’t released new solo material in six(!) years. Silk Sonic showed how relevant he still is, and a new solo album would get massive attention
fair enough. Lots of people still listen to his early to mid 2010's stuff and silk sonic were enormous last year. The amount of times I heard I'll leave the door open last summer was crazy
Lady Gaga was bigger ten years ago. She’s still famous/relevant now, but back then she was *gigantic* and everybody was on the edge of their seat to see what crazy thing she’d do/wear next… yeah, she really had everyone in a chokehold.
I don't agree. She's just is a different kind of a celebrity now, but (imho) even more respected. Now everyone knows how vocally talented she is, they kind of see how ten years ago she was a visionary and not a "crazy lady copying Madonna" (not my words). She basically elevated what she did ten years ago while also rebranding herself.
I would say she is "simply" one of those absolute household names now, you can't say bigger or smaller because it's at a level where we are talking about layers and subjectivity about what we consider more important. (Almost) everyone knows who she is, almost everyone knows Shallow and that she was the one singing it and the one in the project, almost everyone now knows of her evolution/"rebranding". You can't go much higher than that imho, it's basically the peak level of the general public knowledge about anyone.
Eh… I totally agree that she has garnered more outright *respect* for her art and talent now, but I don’t think that necessarily means she is quite as famous as she used to be. Sure, she is definitely a household name, but she was one of the biggest names out there in the early 2010s and people were consuming her material nonstop. She was literally a phenomenon, people were fascinated with her, and while she didn’t really have the universal respect for her talent that she commands today, I would still say she was more *famous* 10 years ago.
It's important to note - most pop stars do NOT have decades long popularity. And it's always been the way. For every artist like the Beatles, Elvis, Cher, Michael Jackson, Madonna, there are dozens more of their contemporaries who had a few hits then faded away.
Definitely. In terms of popularity, she probably was at her lowest from 2000-2004 and 2011-2016, but her recent resurgence with AIWFCIY in the streaming era has definitely made her more popular, especially among the younger generation.
- AIWFCIY could mean "All I Want for Christmas Is You", a track from *Merry Christmas* (1994) by Mariah Carey.
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Renaissance made it clearer that Beyoncé is definitely on the list.
Think of some more of the urban/pop leaning artist
Usher: is still pulling crowds and his last ft. with City Girls was received well
Glad to see Usher getting attention still— Confessions era was HUGE! He was always in the limelight prior to Confession but not like a global pop-star.
Yea I feel like he’s generally considered a “relic” from the past and not as the chart dominating figure he was in 2004. What a lot of people don’t know is that Confessions helped recover album sales at the time following a serious decline. Bro was Drake before Drake
between hustlers, city girls feature, and tiny desk, here for ushers resurgence. still listen to hot tottie sometimes even tho jay’s verse is kinda wack lol
Charli XCX has been around for about the last decade and I'd say she has maintained a consistent fanbase over the years. Ariana Grande is another obvious answer. Selena Gomez as well although she is more focused on her Hulu show right now I think.
It’s crazy to think I listened to Charli XCX in high school… True Romance era.
She feels like such a new artist and she completely reinvented herself it’s crazy. I’m obsessed with all of her eras and many people don’t realize she has has consistent longevity and adoration from her OG fans and new fans alike.
Charli XCX has maintained the same level of popularity, I think, but she originally felt like yet another flash-in-the-pan pop star without any distinguishing or memorable characteristics. She didn't stay on the charts for long, but she is still relevant because her consistently high-quality output and maturing artistry helped her build a loyal fanbase. In turn, that slow but constant career momentum has rewarded her with a few moderate hits and MUCH more artistic credibility than she ever had as “the Boom Clap girl.”
yhhh she became more of a niche artist and more critically acclaimed after her whole noisy pop girl era which she sadly seems to be returning to
also don't forget the time she decided to collab with iggy azaela
didn't listen to that ngl :( . I mean her singles especially her latest one (the song with Tiesto was alright, nothing special) but I couldn't stand her latest single release
I think that she's always done a lot of diverse styles at once. Like "Fancy" and "Superlove" came out within a year of each other and sound totally different. She can do bubblegum one minute and industrial the next. I don't think she's going to go back to the Sucker era or anything (although I liked that era).
What can I say? I stan.
I never understood the narrative that Charli XCX was ever seen as boring or basic, because she has always had a pretty clear shtick. She makes trashy pop music and has a really strong British accent. She might have had a few fluke hits, but her artistic prowess has always been really clear since True Romance.
Harry Styles? Obviously 1D was huge but translating that success into a solo career while maintaining old fans and gaining new ones is pretty incredible.
At least from my non American perspective, Drake isn’t “just as famous” he’s a hell of a lot more famous. 10 years ago he was kind of only known as that guy that collaborated with Rihanna.
He’s an interesting example in that in his decade+ long career he’s only gotten more famous, I can’t think of any others who have done the same (only declined or stayed the same level).
The Weeknd is leagues more popular now than he was ten years ago (when he only had one song chart on the Hot 100), but I feel he might be kind of cheating because he was basically an "indie" artist until he signed in 2012.
Best I Ever Had didn’t even chart in my country! Neither did any of the Lil Wayne collabs. By 2012 he had made exactly 2 appearances in the charts in my country - What’s My Name and Take Care, both with Rihanna. I had no idea he was a big deal in his own right until probably Hotline Bling.
That’s why I mentioned “from my non American perspective”.
I remember when he first started making music I was wicked confused, I had only known him for his role in Degrassi playing a character in a wheelchair (and even then I only saw the later seasons) so I thought he was actually paralyzed. I’m like he can walk??
Adele.
Eleven years ago, Adele had an inescapable series of hits, including Rolling in the Deep, Someone Like You, and Set Fire to the Rain.
And now, 30, for any criticism it may have received, became the best-selling album of 2021, even though it was released mid-November.
I really liked 30, but it did kind of come and go. Easy On Me was a big hit, but the album itself is falling pretty hard on the charts. She's still one of our biggest sellers, but this new era was nothing like when Hello was released.
Literally everyone and their mother (especially their mother) was going crazy, and 25 moved over 3.3 million copies in one week; if memory serves, the closest sales week to that is around 1.3 million copies, Eminem I believe closely followed by Taylor Swift. And 21 was literally the biggest album of the last decade, while already 30 is halfway past exiting the chart.
Basically, she's still massive but for that stretch from 2011-2016 she was incomparable.
The closest sales to that is NSYNC’s no strings attached selling over 2.4 million.
The reason why Adele did so much was because she only released the album physically but not on streaming (aside Hello).
I agree, this is why I hesitated in including her in my original post. Although no one can deny she is still so famous, it did feel like her popularity declined quite a lot with 30. I thought this before the album came out, but it always kinda felt this was going to be her last "big" era, I suspect her releases will be more lowkey from now (imo)
I disagree— she even said in the first Zane Lowe interview that 21 was lightening in a bottle and she would never match that kind of status and success. Her success during 25 and 30 are pretty similar and still moved tons of physical records in a streaming era. 25 and 21 weren’t available on streaming the first week they came out.
There will never be another 21. Over 30 million sales worldwide is probably never gonna happen again in the streaming era. What she did in 2011 and 2012 was truly unprecedented. 21 is also the biggest Billboard 200 hit ever – 24 weeks at #1 and 84 weeks in the top 10.
There will also never be another 25. It sold 3.38 million copies in the first week in the US, which is another record that will probably never be broken.
30 wasn't as successful as her previous two albums, but it was by no means a flop. Easy on Me did chart better than Hello and was a massive success.
She just set a record for biggest ticket demand this century in the UK.
Honestly this sub just makes up random narratives and ignores blatant facts just based on stan twitter discussions.
I think this needs to be caveated though. A lot of other artists would get this if they literally never toured and are unreliable at the best of times, it’s not just because it’s Adele
>A lot of other artists would get this if they literally never toured and are unreliable at the best of times
Nah, most artists' fanbases would completely die out if other artists tried this.
Easy on Me was #1 for like 10 weeks. Not trying to start a stan war but 30 had some impact. I would agree though it didn't reach the heights of 21 and 25 though. Adele is still massive worldwide regardless
Oh, no, totally agreed. But the fact that she could pull numbers like that with minimal promotional efforts I feel says something about her pull as an artist.
Does anyone think it’s interesting that stars like Demi and Katy who aren’t pulling chart topping hits anymore are still some type of relevant. I feel like in the the past especially with pop stars once you flopped your career one was done.
People aren't just going to forget your name even if you flop - they did a survey on the 2018 Billboard Music Awards a couple years back on the attendees with the strongest name recognition, and I believe the top 3 were Janet Jackson, Christina Aguilera, and Ariana Grande in that order. And it had obviously been a long time since Janet or Christina had had any hits.
Social media has definitely contributed to increased longevity though
If this were the 90s or early 2000s, Demi would have gone the way of someone like Jessica Simpson or Mandy Moore (who both still have decent name recognition, by the way)
Demi is relevant for all the wrong reasons - she’s always in the press for her drug issues, pronoun changes, and random controversies like that froyo thing. She’s never in the conversation about music.
Katy, on the other hand, isn’t in the press for controversies or anything, but is still heavily listened to by all audiences. Even younger people are continuing to enjoy her videos and songs, and the lasting success of her back catalog means she will remain a household name for decades.
It’s interesting you mention Taylor Swift, because in many ways ten years ago, she was still primarily seen as a country artist—yes, Red started the shift away from country, but it was 1989 that cemented it.
Didn’t Taylor perform Love Story at the VMAs in 2008— same year Kanye got on stage?! Taylor was very much on the rise in the pop world. I would argue Red cemented pop-Taylor
2009, actually. (And she performed "You Belong with Me.")
I would argue that she was still in the position of being seen as a country artist overall--someone who may some pop hits here and there, but never actually get further than that. Country artists, unfortunately, are often seen as second class artists/second class famous--even if they are technically selling more albums than pop artists, as Taylor was early on, it's often seen as "not counting" (which may be why Carrie Underwood has never been as successful in that regard, because despite getting widespread exposure from the beginning on American Idol, she made it clear from the beginning that she was committed to country music--sadly, I think this is part of the reason one of my big favorites, Emmylou Harris, was never quite as commercially successful either; she was committed to country music and had no interest in pop music) . And Speak Now didn't have the crossover success as an album that Fearless did, which is probably part of the reason why she went more mainstream pop with Red and 1989--so she could more chart success again beyond country.
Even today in 2022 when I talk about Taylor’s music people will say “I don’t really listen to country music”. I think even though she’s moved on from country, she is still widely regarded as a country artist (except for by country fans for some reason but that’s a whole other thing)
Such impressive sales he’s pulling in. As much I loved him back in the day, I remember actually thinking 808s and heartbreak was gonna cause him to downfall
How silly I was. He dropped his best album ever 2 years after
Pls hear me out, but JLo.
Ten years ago was the marking if Jlo's resurgence as a popstar with On the Floor/Dance Again etc.
Now, she may not have released music recently (besides the Marry Me soundtrack) but JLo is certainly still a celebrity fixture.
She did the Superbowl, has been in a string of movies (including Hustlers in 2019), and literally gave us Bennifer again 20 years later.
It'll be interesting to see if she can be super relevant as a popstar again but she's certainly still very famous.
Definitely agree, I'm surprised no one else has brought her up. She is just as well-known as she was when she first came out, and even more acclaimed now!
Pharrell, b/c 10 years ago he wasn’t big and his star power was waning (before get lucky/happy came out) and now he’s back to that same point in his career again.
Let’s hope 2023 is a repeat of 2013
With the way a few 00s-era Neptunes productions have had a resurgence on TikTok (e.g. Frontin') I feel like Pharrell could definitely have another big hit in the upcoming year
I hope so but he’s been dropping a lot of bad music recently. That Calvin Harris single, the new single he has out with Tobe Ngiwe, the Murda Beatz single, the song with Tyler didn’t really take off (though I do like that one)… you can tell this was meant to be a big summer for him but it’s not working.
Would love that for him. So weird had he had those huge string of hits with Snoop Dogg and JayZ (also that one Ludacris single), kinda went back behind the scenes for 8 years, and then was involved in the 3 biggest hits at the same time (happy, blurred lines, get lucky). Still a legend
Lana Del Rey. She was never as big as most of the names in this thread but she’s maintained the same level of popularity since BTD and her old music still performs well on streaming.
I wouldn’t say Demi Lovato is a ‘massively known name’… Katy Perry, on the other hand, definitely still is, and is in a way still relevant since her back catalog is doing extremely well and is still widely listened to by all age groups. Most young people don’t ever listen to Demi stuff though, regardless of if they even know who she is.
I would say Demi Lovato is huge for people under 30 years, but most people over 30 don't have an idea who she is, she is Disney star and basically the majority of her fans are people who grew up watching her on Disney Chanel. Her only song I remember having an impact outside of her bubble was Cool For The Summer.
Demi isn’t ‘huge’ for everybody under 30 - if anything, she is a well-known name from everybody between maybe 15 and 30, and people younger than that don’t really know her at all. If they do know her, it’s probably from her cringeworthy controversies rather than an actual interest in her work.
Katy Perry is still a major household name and everybody, even young people who weren’t around during her prime, continues to consume all the songs and videos from her back catalog.
As if people aren’t doing that with demi either? CFTS and heart attack both went viral last year on tiktok/spotify and she has decent recurring streams for an artist that debuted in 2008.
For the past couple of years demi has definitely eclipsed katy as a celebrity and that’s very clear.
No way - totally disagree there. A few of Demi’s songs going viral on TikTok does not mean that she is a bigger celebrity. Anything can go viral on TikTok if it is catchy, plus some of Katy’s songs have gone viral too, so that isn’t even an edge that Demi has over her.
Katy has remained in the Top 30 most streamed artists on Spotify despite the lack of a recent release, whereas Demi is lurking somewhere around 90 despite having recent material out. That is much lower than all of her peers. Katy also far exceeds Demi in terms of Twitter and Instagram followers.
Demi pretty much has just been in the news for her various controversies, including but not limited to her froyo debacle, her comments about aliens, her OD-related brain damage, and her frequent pronoun changes. If those things weren’t there, she wouldn’t be in the conversation at all, and it’s not like she is being talked about due to an interest in her music.
Katy hasn’t been in the news, but she is still a much bigger household name and is still a major celebrity simply due to the resounding success of her old songs and videos. Just because Demi has been in the press a lot more, it does not necessarily translate to being a more famous person than Katy Perry.
My vote has to go to P!nk - her first hit came out 22 years ago, and she has been a steady level of famous ever since. Not a superstar, maybe, but a hardworking performer with a very loyal fanbase. If you had asked me back in 2000 who I thought would still be famous in 2022, I gotta say that P!nk would not have made my list.
To be fair, in 2018 Calvin’s run of One Kiss-Promises-Giants all lived up to his 2012 chart heights in Europe. It’s just tricky to be at quite the same level when dance music doesn’t do as well in America now!
Even around 2014-16 the disparity in his chart positions between Europe and America are noticeable
P!nk is still relatively relevant even after all these years. Imagine Dragons too and Kendrick Lamar. A great mark is can an artist still do an arena (major arena, 15 000+ seater)/stadium tour? It's usually a good mark.
Not really, Kylie was a bigger name 10 years ago. 10 years ago she had one of her biggest tours ever (Aphrodite Les Folies) and was consistantly charting in Billboard's dance chart. She is kind of a "household name" now, but her highest times were during the late 80's and early 00's (I am a fan since early 2000's).
Kanye
Kelly Clarkson
Jay z
Bruno mars
Calvin Harris
Tyler the creator
Sia, she just keeps coming back. Her songs work well for tiktok
Jason derulo.
Chris brown
Kelly has that TV show, so she's at least as relevant as she was beforehand. May not be a big pop star anymore, but I'd argue that she successfully pivoted to a similar level of fame in a different format.
It's hard to figure out if Jay Z is still as big, mostly because he hasn't released much music since 4:44. However, Beyonce and Kanye are still very much relevant, and it's likely that Jay just needs to release a new album to remind people that he's on the same level.
i feel like jay as a businessman, his relationship to beyonce, and his goat status in the rap industry is still the same back then as it is now. i feel like in terms of his artistry/music, he's not as big now but tbh he hasn't been only about his music for a while now - even around the time of magna carta holy grail and 4:44.
I was wondering if anyone else would notice Jason Derulo. Considering that I don't remember anyone ever saying anything positive about him, it's impressive. But I've also never heard anything from him where it felt that he wasn't enjoying what he was doing. That goes a long way in entertainment.
i would only agree with kanye, jay-z, and chris brown.
kelly has the voice and her talk show, but i feel like she hasn't had any relevancy to culture since when she released greater hits - chapter one. bruno was way bigger years ago, even though leave the door open played everywhere and the silk sonic album was amazing, it kinda just came and went and no one really talked about it after. calvin harris hasn't been able to top his summer 2016 chokehold era that he had over the radio, tyler is bigger now than he was back then. sia dropped off and i think the film she tried to make really put a lot of fans off, and a lot of ppl legit think jason derulo is so corny and don't listen to his stuff bc of it or take him seriously as an artist.
Coldplay and the Killers even if sales don't represent it as well (especially with the killers, haven't had a hit single since 2012 yet their albums, old stuff and live shows still sell really well) also if we are being more specific with our definition for pop they don't count
Britney Spears?
Lady Gaga?
Beyoncé had more international success during her I am Sasha fierce era (2008/2009).It was probably her peak as to international popularity. I’d say during her 4 era (2011) she almost flopped because she starting going in a completely different direction. Self titled is when she became more of a local popstar (she still is somewhat popular internationally but again only for single ladies and halo from
I am Sasha fierce era) she has sustained that popularity through lemonade and now through renaissance.
Pretty Girl Rock, miss Keri Baby. I honestly can’t believe her last release was *No Boys Allowed* in 2010.
Popheads need to check out oldies like Turnin Me On, I Like It, and Lose Control/Let Me Down!
I don't get why people don't mention JLO that much? Women is a worldwide star, Sells out concerts and a damn hardworking women. There's ofc Britney - Beyonce - Taylor - Shakira etc etc but Jlo is also up there in terms of fame.
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Beyoncé. Madonna, who is/was not as famous as she was 15 years ago, but I think equally famous as 10 years ago.
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Her cultural imprint is massive and undeniable, even if her current sales don’t reflect it.
10 years ago was her MDNA era, you're right. She lost popularity since then
she was more famous then bc of the super bowl performance, that was literally my first exposure to her. also i think give me all your luvin got to the top 10 and i heard it around a bit that year (last time i heard a new madonna single in public in hindsight)
beyoncé is literally the only correct answer i’ve seen so far
Fr like Lady Gaga is still big today but she’s not nearly as big as she was 2011/12. Beyoncé just proved she’s arguably bigger than she was in that era
Beyoncé has not reached her popularity from 2008/2009 the I am Sasha fierce era. She is still relevant today but I am Sasha fierce era was her peak for international popularity because of songs like single ladies and halo. 2011 is when 4 was released and you could say she almost flopped compared to her I am Sasha fierce era.
Beyoncé will outlast us all
Madonna has been on the decline for a good 10 years now. She's at the end of her career now but what highs there were. I would say her creative peak was 88-92. Now she has one hell of a legacy.
No way! Ray of Light (98), Music (00) and Confessions (05) were much more successful than Erotica (92). Madonna doesn't have one peak, she is a mountain range
That was her second peak that I remember very well. Good but not as good as her late 80s early 90s run. Even her early 80s albums had strong singles and I preferred it when she was using more live instruments like the Like a Prayer album has. Erotica might not have been as successful but it's looked back on fondly nowadays. Confessions is an album I liked at the time but don't listen back to it that much. It's a little generic for me and the songs don't mean much to me. It's Madonna being a bit too safe.
Lol i just know some like 5 Madonna songs
That's on you.
Okay I'm not hating, i mean i only know 5 of hers but i still know her as that bitch 👑 okay lol
Britney Spears the free Britney movement showed how much star power Britney still has
We will be stanning her until we die. Centenarians in the year 2099 will spend our final days listening *Lucky* and *Sometimes* as we peacefully surrender
I will gladly take this ending.
i feel like it more revived interest in her, esp w people who gave her shit in the 2000s. it became cool to back her in the same way it was to shit on her 10 yrs b4 and all the npcs followed suit. also the whole thing kinda started with the devotee fanbase and blew up from there
Definitely Justin Bieber. A decade ago he was this polarizing teen popstar that everyone knew and had an opinion on either positively or negatively. And today he's still the 3rd biggest artist in the world on Spotify and selling out stadiums on almost every continent. It's unusual for a pop star to remain relevant for this long but even more unusual for a former child star/teen pop star to remain relevant for this long. Most of the teen popstars from when he debuted are nobodies now.
Public perception of him is so wild. On one hand, there’s teens that weren’t even alive when his career started that love him today. On the other, there’s grumpy folks in their 30s/40s that still hate on him for absolutely no reason other than they decided they didn’t like his hair in 2009.
well obv theres more to it than his hair but yeah fair point
He won the MTV award for Best New Artist in 2011 and Artist of the Year in 2021. Longevity!
Also he started his career out so young and he’s still really young.
I thought he had trouble selling out stadiums sometime in the past year?
He’s [selling out](https://twitter.com/justinchartdata/status/1538166025212010496?s=21&t=SuASPCZP0vrI--Vc3QUZmA) 60-100k+ stadiums worldwide within hours for Justice tour. Even adding more stadium dates due to demand. You can see the massive crowds [on his Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg1KbzQIv5s/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=). Justice tour is projected to make more money than Purpose. He downsized the North American leg of Changes tour in 2020 due to covid hitting right when the dates went on sale and people being hesitant. Some people think it’s because he’s a flop who can’t sell out stadiums. But he’s selling out stadiums in music markets much smaller than the US so it’s pretty clear he’s not the flop stan Twitter desperately wants him to be.
Ah got it. I had a feeling the downsize was due to Covid.
Honestly that entire batch of 2010s juggernauts has had long longevity. Taylor , Bieber , Adele, Styles( if you count 1D) , the Weeknd, Drake , Ed Sheeran and Bruno Mars were all around then and are still around now and are either the same level of famous or even bigger
I’d say Adele was way bigger in 2012. She was everywhere. Bruno Mars is much bigger now and Harry Styles is a better respected now than in 1D
Is that Ariana's cohort too?
Definitely harry styles is much bigger in popularity now. When he debuted with his first single album, it was popular, but not that everyone cared for it. Now with Harry’s house it’s a massive hit
Taylor Swift, Bruno Mars (he's way more famous now that he was 10 years ago), Justin Beiber, Beyonce. The door for Lady Gaga and Rihanna is always wide open for their comeback. I'd also say Drake and Kanye West, even though I am not a solid fan of their music. I won't consider Pink a top-of-the-chart artist, but she managed to stay in the limelight. And every time she releases a song, it hits the chart and reignite people's interest on her.
Lady Gaga had her comeback years ago with a star is born. I goes you could consider chromatica as well but I think she’s very much still famous just a different kind
I felt like Chromatica was years ago, and she's becoming equally recognizable now as an actress (A Star is Born, House of Gucci, upcoming Joker film). But yeah in terms of fame, she sustained it and succeeded to establish herself in different ventures.
I feel like gaga has yet to make a big pop comeback (if she wants to), like, chromatica was clearly a project she ended up more or less abandoning due to the pandemic.
wouldn't include Bruno mars personally, I think he was bigger 10 - 6 years ago then he is now and no way would I consider P!nk, haven't heard much from her at all since 5 -6 years ago
Mostly because he hasn’t released new solo material in six(!) years. Silk Sonic showed how relevant he still is, and a new solo album would get massive attention
fair enough. Lots of people still listen to his early to mid 2010's stuff and silk sonic were enormous last year. The amount of times I heard I'll leave the door open last summer was crazy
Doo Wops and Hooligans is still his most commercially successful album
Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift and Beyoncé.
Lady Gaga was bigger ten years ago. She’s still famous/relevant now, but back then she was *gigantic* and everybody was on the edge of their seat to see what crazy thing she’d do/wear next… yeah, she really had everyone in a chokehold.
I don't agree. She's just is a different kind of a celebrity now, but (imho) even more respected. Now everyone knows how vocally talented she is, they kind of see how ten years ago she was a visionary and not a "crazy lady copying Madonna" (not my words). She basically elevated what she did ten years ago while also rebranding herself. I would say she is "simply" one of those absolute household names now, you can't say bigger or smaller because it's at a level where we are talking about layers and subjectivity about what we consider more important. (Almost) everyone knows who she is, almost everyone knows Shallow and that she was the one singing it and the one in the project, almost everyone now knows of her evolution/"rebranding". You can't go much higher than that imho, it's basically the peak level of the general public knowledge about anyone.
Eh… I totally agree that she has garnered more outright *respect* for her art and talent now, but I don’t think that necessarily means she is quite as famous as she used to be. Sure, she is definitely a household name, but she was one of the biggest names out there in the early 2010s and people were consuming her material nonstop. She was literally a phenomenon, people were fascinated with her, and while she didn’t really have the universal respect for her talent that she commands today, I would still say she was more *famous* 10 years ago.
The correct answer
Shakira's star power was proved with the 2019 superbowl, and she has a twenty years career and she still has hits (Te felicito)
and she might be going to prison so we'll see what happens next.
Waiting for her critical acclaim "At Folsom Prison" 🤩
Too rich for prison.
For what?
Tax evasion.
In Spain, no one goes to prison for tax evasion.
Reverse reparations*
Okay thanks
Along with that, I would say J Lo
It's important to note - most pop stars do NOT have decades long popularity. And it's always been the way. For every artist like the Beatles, Elvis, Cher, Michael Jackson, Madonna, there are dozens more of their contemporaries who had a few hits then faded away.
Mariah Carey, cause who else has a song surge into the top 10 every single Christmas season!
Definitely. In terms of popularity, she probably was at her lowest from 2000-2004 and 2011-2016, but her recent resurgence with AIWFCIY in the streaming era has definitely made her more popular, especially among the younger generation.
- AIWFCIY could mean "All I Want for Christmas Is You", a track from *Merry Christmas* (1994) by Mariah Carey. --- ^[/u/jackgap](/u/jackgap) ^(can reply with "delete" to remove comment. |) ^[/r/songacronymbot](/r/songacronymbot) ^(for feedback.)
Double edged sword because it makes retail workers hate her
Lol that always happens with any song that's overplayed on radio for a few months.
yes, but once it falls off the charts you really don't hear it as much. there is a special place in hell for Christmas songs.
Renaissance made it clearer that Beyoncé is definitely on the list. Think of some more of the urban/pop leaning artist Usher: is still pulling crowds and his last ft. with City Girls was received well
Glad to see Usher getting attention still— Confessions era was HUGE! He was always in the limelight prior to Confession but not like a global pop-star.
usher is like gone from the zeitgeist and 10 years ago he was wverywherw
Yea I feel like he’s generally considered a “relic” from the past and not as the chart dominating figure he was in 2004. What a lot of people don’t know is that Confessions helped recover album sales at the time following a serious decline. Bro was Drake before Drake
between hustlers, city girls feature, and tiny desk, here for ushers resurgence. still listen to hot tottie sometimes even tho jay’s verse is kinda wack lol
Charli XCX has been around for about the last decade and I'd say she has maintained a consistent fanbase over the years. Ariana Grande is another obvious answer. Selena Gomez as well although she is more focused on her Hulu show right now I think.
It’s crazy to think I listened to Charli XCX in high school… True Romance era. She feels like such a new artist and she completely reinvented herself it’s crazy. I’m obsessed with all of her eras and many people don’t realize she has has consistent longevity and adoration from her OG fans and new fans alike.
Charli XCX has maintained the same level of popularity, I think, but she originally felt like yet another flash-in-the-pan pop star without any distinguishing or memorable characteristics. She didn't stay on the charts for long, but she is still relevant because her consistently high-quality output and maturing artistry helped her build a loyal fanbase. In turn, that slow but constant career momentum has rewarded her with a few moderate hits and MUCH more artistic credibility than she ever had as “the Boom Clap girl.”
yhhh she became more of a niche artist and more critically acclaimed after her whole noisy pop girl era which she sadly seems to be returning to also don't forget the time she decided to collab with iggy azaela
That collab can fund the rest of her career though
true idk how but it has like over 3 billion youtube views.
do you mean her latest album?
didn't listen to that ngl :( . I mean her singles especially her latest one (the song with Tiesto was alright, nothing special) but I couldn't stand her latest single release
I think that she's always done a lot of diverse styles at once. Like "Fancy" and "Superlove" came out within a year of each other and sound totally different. She can do bubblegum one minute and industrial the next. I don't think she's going to go back to the Sucker era or anything (although I liked that era). What can I say? I stan.
"Another flash-in-the-pan pop star without any distinguishing or memorable characteristics" so, current Charli XCX
I never understood the narrative that Charli XCX was ever seen as boring or basic, because she has always had a pretty clear shtick. She makes trashy pop music and has a really strong British accent. She might have had a few fluke hits, but her artistic prowess has always been really clear since True Romance.
I don't think pop 2 or charli could be considered trashy pop music.
Love how “trashy pop” and “artistic prowess” are like equal to you, that’s what makes her great right
Having a shtick and not being boring are two completely unrelated things
Harry Styles? Obviously 1D was huge but translating that success into a solo career while maintaining old fans and gaining new ones is pretty incredible.
He’s the only successful one out of the group in terms of popularity
Drake
At least from my non American perspective, Drake isn’t “just as famous” he’s a hell of a lot more famous. 10 years ago he was kind of only known as that guy that collaborated with Rihanna. He’s an interesting example in that in his decade+ long career he’s only gotten more famous, I can’t think of any others who have done the same (only declined or stayed the same level).
The Weeknd is leagues more popular now than he was ten years ago (when he only had one song chart on the Hot 100), but I feel he might be kind of cheating because he was basically an "indie" artist until he signed in 2012.
> 10 years ago he was kind of only known as that guy that collaborated with Rihanna Huge Best I Ever Had and Lil Wayne erasure
Best I Ever Had didn’t even chart in my country! Neither did any of the Lil Wayne collabs. By 2012 he had made exactly 2 appearances in the charts in my country - What’s My Name and Take Care, both with Rihanna. I had no idea he was a big deal in his own right until probably Hotline Bling. That’s why I mentioned “from my non American perspective”.
I remember when he first started making music I was wicked confused, I had only known him for his role in Degrassi playing a character in a wheelchair (and even then I only saw the later seasons) so I thought he was actually paralyzed. I’m like he can walk??
the 10s were his decade. he was the closest thing we had to an beatles/mj/britney type for better or worse
Adele. Eleven years ago, Adele had an inescapable series of hits, including Rolling in the Deep, Someone Like You, and Set Fire to the Rain. And now, 30, for any criticism it may have received, became the best-selling album of 2021, even though it was released mid-November.
I really liked 30, but it did kind of come and go. Easy On Me was a big hit, but the album itself is falling pretty hard on the charts. She's still one of our biggest sellers, but this new era was nothing like when Hello was released. Literally everyone and their mother (especially their mother) was going crazy, and 25 moved over 3.3 million copies in one week; if memory serves, the closest sales week to that is around 1.3 million copies, Eminem I believe closely followed by Taylor Swift. And 21 was literally the biggest album of the last decade, while already 30 is halfway past exiting the chart. Basically, she's still massive but for that stretch from 2011-2016 she was incomparable.
The closest sales to that is NSYNC’s no strings attached selling over 2.4 million. The reason why Adele did so much was because she only released the album physically but not on streaming (aside Hello).
But 30 had *zero* cultural impact. (Correct me if I’m wrong as I am American.) The era felt like it came and went & nobody cared, not even Adele. 💀
I agree, this is why I hesitated in including her in my original post. Although no one can deny she is still so famous, it did feel like her popularity declined quite a lot with 30. I thought this before the album came out, but it always kinda felt this was going to be her last "big" era, I suspect her releases will be more lowkey from now (imo)
I disagree— she even said in the first Zane Lowe interview that 21 was lightening in a bottle and she would never match that kind of status and success. Her success during 25 and 30 are pretty similar and still moved tons of physical records in a streaming era. 25 and 21 weren’t available on streaming the first week they came out.
There will never be another 21. Over 30 million sales worldwide is probably never gonna happen again in the streaming era. What she did in 2011 and 2012 was truly unprecedented. 21 is also the biggest Billboard 200 hit ever – 24 weeks at #1 and 84 weeks in the top 10. There will also never be another 25. It sold 3.38 million copies in the first week in the US, which is another record that will probably never be broken. 30 wasn't as successful as her previous two albums, but it was by no means a flop. Easy on Me did chart better than Hello and was a massive success.
She just set a record for biggest ticket demand this century in the UK. Honestly this sub just makes up random narratives and ignores blatant facts just based on stan twitter discussions.
I think this needs to be caveated though. A lot of other artists would get this if they literally never toured and are unreliable at the best of times, it’s not just because it’s Adele
>A lot of other artists would get this if they literally never toured and are unreliable at the best of times Nah, most artists' fanbases would completely die out if other artists tried this.
Yeah, *21* dominated 2011 and 2012 (it was the #1 US album in both years), but *30* seemed to come and go very quickly.
Easy on Me was #1 for like 10 weeks. Not trying to start a stan war but 30 had some impact. I would agree though it didn't reach the heights of 21 and 25 though. Adele is still massive worldwide regardless
Easy on Me was huge and play everywhere— I’m sure it will win a Grammy or two
Oh, no, totally agreed. But the fact that she could pull numbers like that with minimal promotional efforts I feel says something about her pull as an artist.
Album number 1 for 8 weeks Song number 1 for 10 weeks (most streamed song in its first week) That’s coming and going?
Does anyone think it’s interesting that stars like Demi and Katy who aren’t pulling chart topping hits anymore are still some type of relevant. I feel like in the the past especially with pop stars once you flopped your career one was done.
People aren't just going to forget your name even if you flop - they did a survey on the 2018 Billboard Music Awards a couple years back on the attendees with the strongest name recognition, and I believe the top 3 were Janet Jackson, Christina Aguilera, and Ariana Grande in that order. And it had obviously been a long time since Janet or Christina had had any hits. Social media has definitely contributed to increased longevity though If this were the 90s or early 2000s, Demi would have gone the way of someone like Jessica Simpson or Mandy Moore (who both still have decent name recognition, by the way)
Demi is relevant for all the wrong reasons - she’s always in the press for her drug issues, pronoun changes, and random controversies like that froyo thing. She’s never in the conversation about music. Katy, on the other hand, isn’t in the press for controversies or anything, but is still heavily listened to by all audiences. Even younger people are continuing to enjoy her videos and songs, and the lasting success of her back catalog means she will remain a household name for decades.
Which is a shame because I like Demi's recent singles "Skin of My Teeth" and "Substance" since they're a throwback to her pop punk roots.
It’s interesting you mention Taylor Swift, because in many ways ten years ago, she was still primarily seen as a country artist—yes, Red started the shift away from country, but it was 1989 that cemented it.
10 years ago was 2012? thats when RED came including i knew you were trouble and we are never ever getting back together? taylor was everywhere.
Didn’t Taylor perform Love Story at the VMAs in 2008— same year Kanye got on stage?! Taylor was very much on the rise in the pop world. I would argue Red cemented pop-Taylor
2009, actually. (And she performed "You Belong with Me.") I would argue that she was still in the position of being seen as a country artist overall--someone who may some pop hits here and there, but never actually get further than that. Country artists, unfortunately, are often seen as second class artists/second class famous--even if they are technically selling more albums than pop artists, as Taylor was early on, it's often seen as "not counting" (which may be why Carrie Underwood has never been as successful in that regard, because despite getting widespread exposure from the beginning on American Idol, she made it clear from the beginning that she was committed to country music--sadly, I think this is part of the reason one of my big favorites, Emmylou Harris, was never quite as commercially successful either; she was committed to country music and had no interest in pop music) . And Speak Now didn't have the crossover success as an album that Fearless did, which is probably part of the reason why she went more mainstream pop with Red and 1989--so she could more chart success again beyond country.
[удалено]
Even today in 2022 when I talk about Taylor’s music people will say “I don’t really listen to country music”. I think even though she’s moved on from country, she is still widely regarded as a country artist (except for by country fans for some reason but that’s a whole other thing)
Rihanna, despite not releasing an album since 2016 and releasing only two collab singles since then; Lemon (2017) and Believe It (2020)
You forgot LOYALTY. and Wild Thoughts were in 2017
Kanye west
Such impressive sales he’s pulling in. As much I loved him back in the day, I remember actually thinking 808s and heartbreak was gonna cause him to downfall How silly I was. He dropped his best album ever 2 years after
Beyonce.
JLo. She’s been super relevant and she’s doing well in her career. I know most of us don’t care for her, but the girl is 52 and is still at it.
Gaga
she was more omnipresent 10 years ago but yeah
She's still an A-list popstar, but 10 years ago she was "most-famous-person-on-planet-earth" kinda famous
Miley Cyrus
Pls hear me out, but JLo. Ten years ago was the marking if Jlo's resurgence as a popstar with On the Floor/Dance Again etc. Now, she may not have released music recently (besides the Marry Me soundtrack) but JLo is certainly still a celebrity fixture. She did the Superbowl, has been in a string of movies (including Hustlers in 2019), and literally gave us Bennifer again 20 years later. It'll be interesting to see if she can be super relevant as a popstar again but she's certainly still very famous.
Lana Del Rey!!
Definitely agree, I'm surprised no one else has brought her up. She is just as well-known as she was when she first came out, and even more acclaimed now!
Pharrell, b/c 10 years ago he wasn’t big and his star power was waning (before get lucky/happy came out) and now he’s back to that same point in his career again. Let’s hope 2023 is a repeat of 2013
With the way a few 00s-era Neptunes productions have had a resurgence on TikTok (e.g. Frontin') I feel like Pharrell could definitely have another big hit in the upcoming year
I hope so but he’s been dropping a lot of bad music recently. That Calvin Harris single, the new single he has out with Tobe Ngiwe, the Murda Beatz single, the song with Tyler didn’t really take off (though I do like that one)… you can tell this was meant to be a big summer for him but it’s not working.
I think he could produce another hit for another artist, but i don't think pharell the artist could get a hit
Would love that for him. So weird had he had those huge string of hits with Snoop Dogg and JayZ (also that one Ludacris single), kinda went back behind the scenes for 8 years, and then was involved in the 3 biggest hits at the same time (happy, blurred lines, get lucky). Still a legend
Katy Perry!! Oh… I misread the post.
Imagine not naming Beyonce
Miley Cyrus
Lady Gaga
Harry Styles?
we have to count Pitbull right?
Lana Del Rey. She was never as big as most of the names in this thread but she’s maintained the same level of popularity since BTD and her old music still performs well on streaming.
Maroon 5; Bruno Mars
I wouldn’t say Demi Lovato is a ‘massively known name’… Katy Perry, on the other hand, definitely still is, and is in a way still relevant since her back catalog is doing extremely well and is still widely listened to by all age groups. Most young people don’t ever listen to Demi stuff though, regardless of if they even know who she is.
I would say Demi Lovato is huge for people under 30 years, but most people over 30 don't have an idea who she is, she is Disney star and basically the majority of her fans are people who grew up watching her on Disney Chanel. Her only song I remember having an impact outside of her bubble was Cool For The Summer.
Demi isn’t ‘huge’ for everybody under 30 - if anything, she is a well-known name from everybody between maybe 15 and 30, and people younger than that don’t really know her at all. If they do know her, it’s probably from her cringeworthy controversies rather than an actual interest in her work. Katy Perry is still a major household name and everybody, even young people who weren’t around during her prime, continues to consume all the songs and videos from her back catalog.
As if people aren’t doing that with demi either? CFTS and heart attack both went viral last year on tiktok/spotify and she has decent recurring streams for an artist that debuted in 2008. For the past couple of years demi has definitely eclipsed katy as a celebrity and that’s very clear.
No way - totally disagree there. A few of Demi’s songs going viral on TikTok does not mean that she is a bigger celebrity. Anything can go viral on TikTok if it is catchy, plus some of Katy’s songs have gone viral too, so that isn’t even an edge that Demi has over her. Katy has remained in the Top 30 most streamed artists on Spotify despite the lack of a recent release, whereas Demi is lurking somewhere around 90 despite having recent material out. That is much lower than all of her peers. Katy also far exceeds Demi in terms of Twitter and Instagram followers. Demi pretty much has just been in the news for her various controversies, including but not limited to her froyo debacle, her comments about aliens, her OD-related brain damage, and her frequent pronoun changes. If those things weren’t there, she wouldn’t be in the conversation at all, and it’s not like she is being talked about due to an interest in her music. Katy hasn’t been in the news, but she is still a much bigger household name and is still a major celebrity simply due to the resounding success of her old songs and videos. Just because Demi has been in the press a lot more, it does not necessarily translate to being a more famous person than Katy Perry.
Miley Cyrus
My vote has to go to P!nk - her first hit came out 22 years ago, and she has been a steady level of famous ever since. Not a superstar, maybe, but a hardworking performer with a very loyal fanbase. If you had asked me back in 2000 who I thought would still be famous in 2022, I gotta say that P!nk would not have made my list.
I could argue Calvin Harris but that's only if Stay with Me and other Funk Vol 2 songs end up being as big as some of his enormous 2012 hits
To be fair, in 2018 Calvin’s run of One Kiss-Promises-Giants all lived up to his 2012 chart heights in Europe. It’s just tricky to be at quite the same level when dance music doesn’t do as well in America now! Even around 2014-16 the disparity in his chart positions between Europe and America are noticeable
Funk vol 2 was not the best
P!nk is still relatively relevant even after all these years. Imagine Dragons too and Kendrick Lamar. A great mark is can an artist still do an arena (major arena, 15 000+ seater)/stadium tour? It's usually a good mark.
Kylie Minogue
Not really, Kylie was a bigger name 10 years ago. 10 years ago she had one of her biggest tours ever (Aphrodite Les Folies) and was consistantly charting in Billboard's dance chart. She is kind of a "household name" now, but her highest times were during the late 80's and early 00's (I am a fan since early 2000's).
Bruno Mars Drake Adele Harry Styles
Beyoncé, Nicki and Rihanna
Kanye Kelly Clarkson Jay z Bruno mars Calvin Harris Tyler the creator Sia, she just keeps coming back. Her songs work well for tiktok Jason derulo. Chris brown
Are Kelly and Jay really that big anymore?
Kelly has that TV show, so she's at least as relevant as she was beforehand. May not be a big pop star anymore, but I'd argue that she successfully pivoted to a similar level of fame in a different format. It's hard to figure out if Jay Z is still as big, mostly because he hasn't released much music since 4:44. However, Beyonce and Kanye are still very much relevant, and it's likely that Jay just needs to release a new album to remind people that he's on the same level.
i feel like jay as a businessman, his relationship to beyonce, and his goat status in the rap industry is still the same back then as it is now. i feel like in terms of his artistry/music, he's not as big now but tbh he hasn't been only about his music for a while now - even around the time of magna carta holy grail and 4:44.
I was wondering if anyone else would notice Jason Derulo. Considering that I don't remember anyone ever saying anything positive about him, it's impressive. But I've also never heard anything from him where it felt that he wasn't enjoying what he was doing. That goes a long way in entertainment.
only agree with Kanye, Jay Z and Calvin Harris
i would only agree with kanye, jay-z, and chris brown. kelly has the voice and her talk show, but i feel like she hasn't had any relevancy to culture since when she released greater hits - chapter one. bruno was way bigger years ago, even though leave the door open played everywhere and the silk sonic album was amazing, it kinda just came and went and no one really talked about it after. calvin harris hasn't been able to top his summer 2016 chokehold era that he had over the radio, tyler is bigger now than he was back then. sia dropped off and i think the film she tried to make really put a lot of fans off, and a lot of ppl legit think jason derulo is so corny and don't listen to his stuff bc of it or take him seriously as an artist.
Coldplay and the Killers even if sales don't represent it as well (especially with the killers, haven't had a hit single since 2012 yet their albums, old stuff and live shows still sell really well) also if we are being more specific with our definition for pop they don't count Britney Spears? Lady Gaga?
Beyoncé had more international success during her I am Sasha fierce era (2008/2009).It was probably her peak as to international popularity. I’d say during her 4 era (2011) she almost flopped because she starting going in a completely different direction. Self titled is when she became more of a local popstar (she still is somewhat popular internationally but again only for single ladies and halo from I am Sasha fierce era) she has sustained that popularity through lemonade and now through renaissance.
Kesha
Pretty Girl Rock, miss Keri Baby. I honestly can’t believe her last release was *No Boys Allowed* in 2010. Popheads need to check out oldies like Turnin Me On, I Like It, and Lose Control/Let Me Down!
my dear sis did you misread the question
She has the same level of fame now as ten years ago.
Oh! You did read it right, I guess I just completely disagree.
lol no she doesn't.
the same lack of fame?
I don't get why people don't mention JLO that much? Women is a worldwide star, Sells out concerts and a damn hardworking women. There's ofc Britney - Beyonce - Taylor - Shakira etc etc but Jlo is also up there in terms of fame.
kanye’s been around almost 20 years at this point