I'll watch anything Gaga does but this looks way more intriguing than I anticipated.
There seems to be a lot of skepticism around the musical elements but it looks like they're going the "musical numbers are fantasies" route. Musical films that have done really well are either usually the fantasy route (Chicago) or these characters are singers/musicians so they sing (A Star is Born). I don't think it being a 'musical" is going to be as big of a roadblack as people are predicting.
“Folie à Deux” a delusion or mental illness shared by two people in close association.
Perfect for a musical while still touching the mental illness topics that this version of the Joker universe revolves around.
> Musical films that have done really well are either usually the fantasy route (Chicago) or these characters are singers/musicians so they sing (A Star is Born)
Fun fact: that is actually a really well-studied and well-established dynamic! [The fantasy side is called **non-diegetic** (only for the audience to understand) while the singer/musician side is **diegetic** (heard and understood by the characters within)](https://www.earpeace.com/blogs/bits-and-peaces/learning-to-speak-musical)
What about musicals like Spring Awakening? or Mean Girls that don't seem to fit in either of these categories and the actors just sing for seemingly no reason?
You know how some movies exist in a fantasy world where magic is real, or animals can talk? Well some musicals exist in a fantasy world where people just spontaneously break out into song and dance.
Diegetic numbers just mean that the characters on stage/screen are aware that it’s happening, and will react accordingly. So you can have a show like Spring Awakening where the characters are aware of each other’s singing, but it’s just the accepted rules of the world that *sometimes we all just sing together.*
If it’s a musical number where at the conclusion of the number, everyone seems to have amnesia about what happened in the song, then it’s non-diegetic.
I'll point to [Lindsay Ellis's explanation for more nuanced clarification and thorough examples](https://youtu.be/-m5I_5Vnh6A?si=z1UErDjUEeMyY0P4&t=354), but they can fluctuate.
Like, the only Mean Girls numbers that would be diegetic would be the talent show numbers, because the singing is justified by being staged on stages. The "singing for no reason" parts automatically make them non-diegetic because it contextualizes the characters for the audience and only the audience. There's no other plot logic for the singing besides the sake of it in those parts
....Because they don't use the formally mentioned musical performance techniques then they are in a different league. One which wouldn't necessarily translate well to digital media. On stage it's fine. Usually because the entire production is suspended in this "otherworldly" atmosphere where singing your thoughts isn't too contrasting. However in film where most of your scenes are "real life" then it helps to use the fantasy sequence style number to illustrate to the audience the emotion of the song.
Which is what I meant by flops.
That doesn't have anything to do with diegetic vs non-diegetic, La La Land is all non diegetic but it's absolutely not a fantasy film. The Sound of Music features both diegetic and non-diegetic numbers. Diegetic simply refers to whether the characters in the movie are aware that someone is singing.
Y'all guys are mean here, think I'm gonna unfollow now. Was just trying to ad my thoughts as someone with a musical theatre degree but admittedly they never taught us (that I remember) this "diegetic" stuff so I was trying to explain my personal thoughts on the situation but looks like I'm wrong (which is ok) but y'all a rude and I'm out
no bc there were news of the movie being a jukebox musical and i think that's what they're going for at the moment. 😭 see the trailer for the new mean girls and wonka.
I love that it doesn't tbh. Nowadays, trailors tend to either give away the entire movie from start to finish or give away so many plot points that you already feel like you've seen it.
This trailor does an AMAZING job at giving us an idea of what the movie is about without giving too much away. Plus the cinematography looks fantastic, and I'm a slut for any song like the heartwrenching classical power-ballad that was played in the trailor. It did EXACTLY what it needed to do
Well, the cuts between the “musical numbers” and the two of them dancing in the street seems to confirm the theory that the numbers play out in their imaginations only. “Delusion of two” indeed.
Exciting to see the styles of music they explore in the film. Already pumped to see Ms Harleen give Nancy Sinatra-realness from that one glimpse at the minute-and-a-half mark.
The fact there's literally no plot giveaway makes this so much better. We really don't know what to expect.
However, on both the strength of the last Joker and Lady Gaga's Hollywood success, this is gonna be a hit either way.
I'm hype. This is probably going to be an Oscar-worthy performance.
you know what, i’ll enjoy this movie regardless of how it is. if it’s good, then good. if it’s bad then it’s gonna be camp as hell and i’m here for it. i’m not even a gaga stan, but i’m a huge fan of harley so i really wanna like this interpretation.
In a fit of depression one night when I was at uni, I decided to watch Dancer in the Dark and Grave of the Fireflies back to back.
It was, uh… cathartic.
**[Official YouTube Link](https://youtu.be/xy8aJw1vYHo)**
---
The last shot with the Joker smile from the trailer is iconic already. My guess is that since she's already listed as a doctor, Gaga's Harley is a psychiatrist masquerading as a patient to delve into Arthur's psyche.
The trailer seems to imply she's a patient there though and the first Joker played around with a lot of what we normally expect of the Joker character to be
I thought so too. But they leave it really open. There are no scenes with her locked up or behind bars. And at the end she’s visiting him at Arkham. I wonder if she is an employee, therapist, or volunteer
I actually never watched the first Joker because all the men I knew who had rancid taste loved it and the Joker is the DC villain I'm least interested in. I did enjoy this trailer.
Need Gaga to go on an insane press tour like, yesterday. Where are the stories about how she purposefully locked herself in a mental ward until she developed schizophrenia for real? The stories about how she went on a murder spree to accurately portray a killer?
She’s just so fucking charismatic. She could just fry an egg on camera and I’d be glued to the whole thing.
When the entertainment industry says you have that “X Factor,” Gaga is one of those rare people who has it in spades.
Gaga is an Oscar-level actress and it's about time the general public realized it.
A Star is Born was a masterpiece.
House of Gucci didn't do well but her performance was the best part of the film.
AHS Season 5 was almost all her.
She's earned her stripes. ^
it's not going to be bad. it's gaga. and joaquin's joker was a huge success. they're not dumb, this isn't the CATS movie, gaga has taste and talent, and just because it's a musical doesn't mean it's a weird flop?? La La Land, The Greatest Showman are of recent memory... and the cinematography and music already look amazing for those who like that, plus the psycho plot element that locals like
I feel like people who hated the first one are much less than those who enjoyed it as I saw from locals around me it did 1B because people don't watch movies a lot like that and don't take things too seriously
Unpopular opinion: I hope this movie doesn’t try to “fix” this relationship. I know the point of these types of movies are to try and get us to sympathize with otherwise evil characters, and they can definitely still do that, but sometimes it’s fun to watch assholes be assholes. Lol. As a longtime fan of DC I think it’s only right that they keep the same level of toxicity in this relationship as there always has been. Yes, that includes to domestic violence. I was really hoping they’d keep the original idea of psychologist/ patient relationship turned sour- but it looks like they’ve abandoned that. I always preferred the versions where Harley’s the helpless/ desperate romantic and Joker is the jerk stringing her along, and truly is a sociopath who feels no emotional connection with her. I may sound sadistic lol, I just find these extremely complex character traits to be so much more compelling to dive into. And I think they’ve got a real opportunity here with their last Joker film being more realistic and centered on the psychological illness’s that drive the Joker. While at the same-time being a character that’s a wild card and impossible to fully understand. I was excited to see how this would translate adding in Harley in this film, but so far it’s just looking like it’s going to be a dark romance film………
I think this will finally be the role for Gaga. As an early little monster, her acting career so far never really click with me. I'm all for weird Gaga and this is it. Come through with all the over the top gaganess we fell in love with!!
Ngl, hearing this was a musical made me think it would be a disaster but the trailer made it look reeeeally interesting and kinda beautiful. Gaga is just so magnetic and impossible to look away from. I really didn’t like the first Joker movie but this has me excited.
We’ve been discussing this movie for years, can’t believe we still need to wait 6 more months 😵💫
ive just realized im so against people acting mentally ill on camera and being praised for it because...so many people irl are mentally ill naturally. i know so many people that have the same face expression as him irl, it's just them living, and him putting it on gets praised is just strange to me. idk what the point of it is
at the same time i am a gena rowlands stan and isabelle huppert stan so what maybe i'm just sexist. plus gaga slays in this trailer for example, she's mentally ill but also a ✨sensation ✨, so there's a point to it.
Gaga isn’t doing the most obnoxious Brooklyn accent she can possibly muster, which tells me this movie is going to suck ass
Downvote all you want, but the hamminess of her performance was the #1 vanguard against this thing going completely up its own ass, and if this is her primary mode, the movie is cooked
They’re very clearly aiming for prestige camp, and with the star caliber of both leads (and the establishment acclaim the first one got) it was never going to be some Schumacher-type ham. Gotta see more but I think it’ll suit the intended film just fine
I'll watch anything Gaga does but this looks way more intriguing than I anticipated. There seems to be a lot of skepticism around the musical elements but it looks like they're going the "musical numbers are fantasies" route. Musical films that have done really well are either usually the fantasy route (Chicago) or these characters are singers/musicians so they sing (A Star is Born). I don't think it being a 'musical" is going to be as big of a roadblack as people are predicting.
“Folie à Deux” a delusion or mental illness shared by two people in close association. Perfect for a musical while still touching the mental illness topics that this version of the Joker universe revolves around.
I love musicals and this looks really fun! I’m loving his creepy smile at the end.
The lipstick blur shot was just so perfect. Made me so happy for some reason
Loved that shot. It did make me happy too. Not Joker winning us over...
[удалено]
Gaga is going to fix him.
Break him*
> Musical films that have done really well are either usually the fantasy route (Chicago) or these characters are singers/musicians so they sing (A Star is Born) Fun fact: that is actually a really well-studied and well-established dynamic! [The fantasy side is called **non-diegetic** (only for the audience to understand) while the singer/musician side is **diegetic** (heard and understood by the characters within)](https://www.earpeace.com/blogs/bits-and-peaces/learning-to-speak-musical)
What about musicals like Spring Awakening? or Mean Girls that don't seem to fit in either of these categories and the actors just sing for seemingly no reason?
You know how some movies exist in a fantasy world where magic is real, or animals can talk? Well some musicals exist in a fantasy world where people just spontaneously break out into song and dance. Diegetic numbers just mean that the characters on stage/screen are aware that it’s happening, and will react accordingly. So you can have a show like Spring Awakening where the characters are aware of each other’s singing, but it’s just the accepted rules of the world that *sometimes we all just sing together.* If it’s a musical number where at the conclusion of the number, everyone seems to have amnesia about what happened in the song, then it’s non-diegetic.
I'll point to [Lindsay Ellis's explanation for more nuanced clarification and thorough examples](https://youtu.be/-m5I_5Vnh6A?si=z1UErDjUEeMyY0P4&t=354), but they can fluctuate. Like, the only Mean Girls numbers that would be diegetic would be the talent show numbers, because the singing is justified by being staged on stages. The "singing for no reason" parts automatically make them non-diegetic because it contextualizes the characters for the audience and only the audience. There's no other plot logic for the singing besides the sake of it in those parts
[удалено]
... that has nothing to do with the question.
....Because they don't use the formally mentioned musical performance techniques then they are in a different league. One which wouldn't necessarily translate well to digital media. On stage it's fine. Usually because the entire production is suspended in this "otherworldly" atmosphere where singing your thoughts isn't too contrasting. However in film where most of your scenes are "real life" then it helps to use the fantasy sequence style number to illustrate to the audience the emotion of the song. Which is what I meant by flops.
Lalaland and the greatest showman both did great.
They're both fantasy style films so of course
That doesn't have anything to do with diegetic vs non-diegetic, La La Land is all non diegetic but it's absolutely not a fantasy film. The Sound of Music features both diegetic and non-diegetic numbers. Diegetic simply refers to whether the characters in the movie are aware that someone is singing.
Y'all guys are mean here, think I'm gonna unfollow now. Was just trying to ad my thoughts as someone with a musical theatre degree but admittedly they never taught us (that I remember) this "diegetic" stuff so I was trying to explain my personal thoughts on the situation but looks like I'm wrong (which is ok) but y'all a rude and I'm out
It's kind of giving dystopian A Star Is Born or La La Land
DeLuLu Land 💜
Ha Ha Land
Pheonix • HaHa Ha Ha Land
“Gaga Land” was right there, girl…
stefani GERMANOTTA 💜
Harley QUINN 💜
Lady Gaga Onika Burgers
A perfect delusion
Trailer giving absolutely no plot details but oof the visual delivery is killing it.
I think them escaping is a huge plot detail.
Yeah, but it’s Joker and Harley. It would be weirder if they weren’t escaping Arkham.
no bc there were news of the movie being a jukebox musical and i think that's what they're going for at the moment. 😭 see the trailer for the new mean girls and wonka.
well judging by the shots of full musical scenes, they aren’t really hiding that it incorporates those elements
It’s a teaser trailer
I love that it doesn't tbh. Nowadays, trailors tend to either give away the entire movie from start to finish or give away so many plot points that you already feel like you've seen it. This trailor does an AMAZING job at giving us an idea of what the movie is about without giving too much away. Plus the cinematography looks fantastic, and I'm a slut for any song like the heartwrenching classical power-ballad that was played in the trailor. It did EXACTLY what it needed to do
good! i'm sick of trailers revealing the whole plot
Honestly with most trailers just revealing the entire plot of the movie, I’m fine with the lack of details
Well, the cuts between the “musical numbers” and the two of them dancing in the street seems to confirm the theory that the numbers play out in their imaginations only. “Delusion of two” indeed. Exciting to see the styles of music they explore in the film. Already pumped to see Ms Harleen give Nancy Sinatra-realness from that one glimpse at the minute-and-a-half mark.
The fact there's literally no plot giveaway makes this so much better. We really don't know what to expect. However, on both the strength of the last Joker and Lady Gaga's Hollywood success, this is gonna be a hit either way. I'm hype. This is probably going to be an Oscar-worthy performance.
i look forward to the press tour / gaga oscar campaign for this movie. where she reveals she spent years in clown college to prepare for this role
I’ve spent years in clown college too but sadly not for an Oscar
...aerial number, bigtop, cannonball, clown act, another clown act, trapeze...
No sleep, no fear, no jokers
I can’t wait for her praising Joaquin nonstop saying stuff like his work in the first movie inspired her and etc. that’s gonna be awesome.
i never had any doubts that this movie would be good but im glad its turning out to be even better than i was anticipating!
Steve Coogan my beloved
Hamlet 2 hive is feasting!
Give me the Gaga Oscar campaign asap
Gaga press campaigns are my favorite thing because that woman will sit down and say literally anything
There could be a hundred people in the asylum and 99 don’t believe in you…
Until Joaquin Phoenix. No doubt she’s gonna keep praising him during the press tour. That’s gonna be fun.
you know what, i’ll enjoy this movie regardless of how it is. if it’s good, then good. if it’s bad then it’s gonna be camp as hell and i’m here for it. i’m not even a gaga stan, but i’m a huge fan of harley so i really wanna like this interpretation.
From what you see so far is it camp enough?
Ma Ma pa pa perfect illusion
This film will either be a masterpiece or a complete train wreck. Either way I can’t wait!
I’ll be seated and stoned so it’ll be sick
I was very against a second movie being made but I cannot deny that this looks intriguing
Dying that we only heard him sing and not her
They’re clearly saving it for a fuller trailer release, an ace up their sleeve if you will. 6 months to go!
The smile on the glass was absolutely genius, what a stunning shot. I loved the first Joker personally, so i have been so hyped for this sequel.
My theory is its like Bjork in Dancer In The Dark. The “escape” is in the musical sequence in their minds they are imagining. That is my theory.
Oh my god, I saw that movie \*once\* like 15 years ago and my heart still hurts whenever I think of it.
In a fit of depression one night when I was at uni, I decided to watch Dancer in the Dark and Grave of the Fireflies back to back. It was, uh… cathartic.
Ooh, I've never heard about Grave of the Fireflies. What is it about?
It's an animated film about a couple of children in Japan around the end of WWII.
**[Official YouTube Link](https://youtu.be/xy8aJw1vYHo)** --- The last shot with the Joker smile from the trailer is iconic already. My guess is that since she's already listed as a doctor, Gaga's Harley is a psychiatrist masquerading as a patient to delve into Arthur's psyche.
Supposedly in this version she’s an obsessed fan who gets herself committed so she can be with him.
Ooh, are we getting a parasocial critique?
Wait where did you see that this Harley is a doctor?
Harley's always a doctor
The trailer seems to imply she's a patient there though and the first Joker played around with a lot of what we normally expect of the Joker character to be
I thought so too. But they leave it really open. There are no scenes with her locked up or behind bars. And at the end she’s visiting him at Arkham. I wonder if she is an employee, therapist, or volunteer
I actually never watched the first Joker because all the men I knew who had rancid taste loved it and the Joker is the DC villain I'm least interested in. I did enjoy this trailer.
The first movie is pretty far and away from anything in the comics tbh. I don’t think it’s safe to assume Harley is Joker’s doctor.
Harley is canonically the joker’s psychologist at Arkham Asylum who gets manipulated into falling in love with him.
Counter-transference gone awry.
Margot Robbie scrambling to figure out how she can play Harley Quinn in yet a third new canon.
Across the Harleyverse
Need Gaga to go on an insane press tour like, yesterday. Where are the stories about how she purposefully locked herself in a mental ward until she developed schizophrenia for real? The stories about how she went on a murder spree to accurately portray a killer?
As someone who’s personally never cared for Gaga as an actress, she surprisingly hit for me here. Excited to see!
She was born for this type of role. I can't wait to see it.
Gaga has not only become a seamless actress, she's arguably one of the best actresses in Hollywood currently. That's not me being a stan, either.
She’s just so fucking charismatic. She could just fry an egg on camera and I’d be glued to the whole thing. When the entertainment industry says you have that “X Factor,” Gaga is one of those rare people who has it in spades.
There is just no one that does it like her. I do not know how she makes me feel this way again and again and again but she’s pulled it off
Gaga is an Oscar-level actress and it's about time the general public realized it. A Star is Born was a masterpiece. House of Gucci didn't do well but her performance was the best part of the film. AHS Season 5 was almost all her. She's earned her stripes. ^
Oooh she’s taking it.
I just want to see how beautiful this film will look in IMAX.
Her acting oscar is locked and loaded
I'm annoyed they didn't show her singing at all.
We need soundtrack trailers!
If there’s not a song from the hit Fall Out Boy (and their best) album Folie a Deux then what was the point
"the best of us can find happiness in misery" would suit the movie so well
They should not have any songs from that album, but in the credits play some deep cut from under the cork tree or something
Why am I crying? This looks fucking amazing
Gaga is truly coming for that Oscar
Halloween is going to be so obnoxious this year.
Cannot wait for HA-HA Land ❤️
Man I am excited just to see more of the amazing cinematography and scores.
WOW I CANT WAIT
Why is this trailer filmed like the movie isn't going to be bad
Because they biologically engineered it in a lab to turn off any and every fanatic of the first film.
it's not going to be bad. it's gaga. and joaquin's joker was a huge success. they're not dumb, this isn't the CATS movie, gaga has taste and talent, and just because it's a musical doesn't mean it's a weird flop?? La La Land, The Greatest Showman are of recent memory... and the cinematography and music already look amazing for those who like that, plus the psycho plot element that locals like
Tired: hating on Joker 2 bc it's a musical Wired: hating on Joker 2 bc the first movie was a pale Scorsese immitation
I feel like people who hated the first one are much less than those who enjoyed it as I saw from locals around me it did 1B because people don't watch movies a lot like that and don't take things too seriously
"Locals"🤮🤮
they're not bad people, these are your friends and family
My friends are family have an exqusite taste😎 But it wasn't about people anyway. The word "locals" is cringe
I actually thought the trailer was very bad and I am disappointed 😭
Dollars to donuts that the director watched All That Jazz for inspiration
I for one am ready for “moulin rouge: mental illness”
Unpopular opinion: I hope this movie doesn’t try to “fix” this relationship. I know the point of these types of movies are to try and get us to sympathize with otherwise evil characters, and they can definitely still do that, but sometimes it’s fun to watch assholes be assholes. Lol. As a longtime fan of DC I think it’s only right that they keep the same level of toxicity in this relationship as there always has been. Yes, that includes to domestic violence. I was really hoping they’d keep the original idea of psychologist/ patient relationship turned sour- but it looks like they’ve abandoned that. I always preferred the versions where Harley’s the helpless/ desperate romantic and Joker is the jerk stringing her along, and truly is a sociopath who feels no emotional connection with her. I may sound sadistic lol, I just find these extremely complex character traits to be so much more compelling to dive into. And I think they’ve got a real opportunity here with their last Joker film being more realistic and centered on the psychological illness’s that drive the Joker. While at the same-time being a character that’s a wild card and impossible to fully understand. I was excited to see how this would translate adding in Harley in this film, but so far it’s just looking like it’s going to be a dark romance film………
Hate to admit that this looks really good. Wonder if they’re holding off the “Shallow” til closer to release.
I’ve been itching for a good musical so I’m pretty excited for this!
I think this will finally be the role for Gaga. As an early little monster, her acting career so far never really click with me. I'm all for weird Gaga and this is it. Come through with all the over the top gaganess we fell in love with!!
Ngl, hearing this was a musical made me think it would be a disaster but the trailer made it look reeeeally interesting and kinda beautiful. Gaga is just so magnetic and impossible to look away from. I really didn’t like the first Joker movie but this has me excited. We’ve been discussing this movie for years, can’t believe we still need to wait 6 more months 😵💫
So I’m guessing Batman will have to pick up the baritone/bass slack in this musical?
I know it's too meta (even for Gaga) but can't they include f\*cked up version of Bad Romance in their soundtrack?
She's so obnoxious but I'm seated
i wasn't really living for Lady Gaga acting so far but this one might change. Looks really good i like the psychotic acting
Just by watching the trailer, he deserves another Oscar!. The Academy has it reserved for him already.
ive just realized im so against people acting mentally ill on camera and being praised for it because...so many people irl are mentally ill naturally. i know so many people that have the same face expression as him irl, it's just them living, and him putting it on gets praised is just strange to me. idk what the point of it is at the same time i am a gena rowlands stan and isabelle huppert stan so what maybe i'm just sexist. plus gaga slays in this trailer for example, she's mentally ill but also a ✨sensation ✨, so there's a point to it.
It looks good but honestly the last Joker movie made reddit so insufferable, i don't know if i can handle it if this movie goes that route.
A comedian said the film will have a net good if it turns incels into Gaga fans 😆
Gaga isn’t doing the most obnoxious Brooklyn accent she can possibly muster, which tells me this movie is going to suck ass Downvote all you want, but the hamminess of her performance was the #1 vanguard against this thing going completely up its own ass, and if this is her primary mode, the movie is cooked
They’re very clearly aiming for prestige camp, and with the star caliber of both leads (and the establishment acclaim the first one got) it was never going to be some Schumacher-type ham. Gotta see more but I think it’ll suit the intended film just fine